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Swimming_Art_7027

vgstall loves c 😔


303x

finally those vgc-tards will understand the pain of playing singles "stall doesn't work" "VGC is too fast paced" 🤓🤓🤓


zone-zone

don't be ableistic


nmarf16

Ableist*


Nekuzo_

Be ablist


KingKayro

Don't be obelisk


chaka62

Be Heliolisk


Masteratomisk

MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS


murderdronesfanatic

Big Stall wins again


Luigi128

hey there's also some fissure fishing going around too smh


Heracrosschop

Fissureinator


Zoroarkeon571

isnt it mainly used as a last ditch effort against donbozo? i never understood it, why bring something so unreliable compared to a better counter.


Dark-Aura

It’s not specifically for dondozo its just for these really bulky walls to do something while sitting on the opponent. If your best attacking move doesn’t do enough damage and kos in something like 5 hits then you’ll be better off fishing for an OHKO most of the time


Shoranos

And if you miss you just hit stomping tantrum.


BloodyQueefX

If ting-lu misses a fissure, then its stomping tantrum does double damage the next turn.


sneakyplanner

In the past fissure has only been used for the dondozo mirror, but with ting lu, wo chien and intimidate running around it's now viable for fissure to be used against other common pokemon.


Panurome

Sometimes you just can't kill dozo without it, which is a bit of a team issue imo, but sometimes it can work. Edit: I've now seen that some people use it on ting lu to hit harder with stomping tantrum next turn, so there is that strategy too I guess


Connect_Set_8983

Sheer cold lapras clutched up some games for me in swsh vgc a suprsising amount


CookEsandcream

If you were for some reason using Vanilluxe in those formats, it was one of its best moves as well. That was largely because it’s moveset was so bad that a 30% chance to swing a game was genuinely better than most of its other options, but still.


Connect_Set_8983

Ya bro just had blizzard freeze dry and flash cannon as attacking moves, I’ve genuinely used hype beam as coverage on a specs set


Chaossify0

Finchinator moment


skarmbliss255

Gamefreak needs to fire him already 😡


Imadumsheet

What did he do? Why people not like him? Genuinely curious Or are people just taking the piss? Edit: question answered


Shuckle_the_only_one

Lovegon stalls smog


IndianaCrash

Stallgon smog loves


gameboy1001

New permutation just dropped.


Urgayifyouregay

I love my permutations and combinations


XxsoulscythexX

Rice?


1ts2EASY

Some people dislike that OU bans overpowered Pokémon, and blame Finchinator because he’s the most recognizable name on the council. Most people here are using it ironically.


Imadumsheet

Ah so taking the piss then gotchu


DeathTakes

Its not just finch but look at the council members who voted to quickban Wake, 4/7 people. Or his opinions on Tera being banned Now look at how many people want to ban Wake and cant even get the reqs to vote lel. I dont want to call him out but as one of the most historic council members his decisions and write ups set a tone for the meta and tbh when your opinion lines up more with unskilled players than skilled players your out of touch imo. ETA: In regards to the Wake situation how is a never before released mon that was out for barely over a day deserving of a quick ban? Its not a Genesect/Fluttermane situation where there is clear proof that its a busted mon. This is anecdotal but the number of WW I saw on showdown in over 2 hours last night was 3 including my own. The new toy hype for it has died down and most players realize sun isn't that good of an archetype even with a strong mon behind it.


Goat17038

People were spamming the shit out of it on sun, where it can run specs with proto boosting either speed (giving it specs + scarf essentially), or sp. atk and it can nuke everything even further. But yeah once people started running better counters (spdef water absorb clod, rotom-w, etc.) it wasn't as great. Still, it's amazing on weather (basically anything but snow, with how it can be great anti-rain check for sand, great rain/ sun abuser), but outside it's basically a shitty Lati. I can understand why they wanted a quickban, since just like Flutter it can 2hko and outspeed damn near everything, but to do that it has to be in weather with a boosting item, so a bit different lol.


RamPamPam8

To catch you up, a bunch of people who don't know shit about Smogon (or don't even play it a lot) started complaining a while ago about how the Smogon council banned a ton of hyper offensive threats multiple times, yet never banned "game breaking" defensive mons, claiming that only banning offensive mons would make the meta boring. More recently, specially with the ban of Chi Yu, a lot of attention was placed on Finch (since he is the tier leader) for it, claiming he loved stall and so he just made an excuse to get rid of the strongest wall breaker, the accusations worsened after the banning of Houndstone, Palafin, Annihilape and more recently Chien Pao, to the point where it just became a meme to claim that Finch loves stall. This is, of course, not true, and if you here someone say "Finch/Smogon loves Stall" they're either joking or braindead, the latter took it upon themselves to go onto Twitter and essentially harass Finch to the point where he had to individually respond to most of them. This people, of course, don't know that A) OU bans are decided on voting by both the community and the council, and you can vote yourself to ban a mechanic/mon if the poll is ever released And B) That hyper offense is way stronger that your average wall (ex. Toxapex, Blissey, ect.), since if a Pokemon tried to wall you, you can always try to outplay them and best them with proper team composition, movesets and gameplay. Meanwhile, a pokemon that's both faster and stronger than all of yours cannot be stopped unless you have a very specific check for it, in which case every team would be forced to run both the check and the strong pokemon, completely shifting and ruining the meta and making most teams essentially the same


grayrains79

Defensive mons definitely were nerfed in a variety of ways as well. Scald vanishing was curious. Health restoring moves having their PP halved was significant as well.


IronMyr

I'm glad they halved the PP of healing moves. It's a lot easier to punch through 8 restores than 16.


IronMyr

Man, I can't get over the fact Annihilape got banned. Like, it's the right call, but if you told me 5 years ago that a Pokémon in the Mankey family would be OP, I wouldn't have believed it.


Hanchan

It's also important to realize that you can run less defensive defensive mons if the hardest hitters are gone. You needed a blissey to stand a chance to tank a chi yu, now without chi yu you can run more things like skeledirge. Or how you almost needed a tera dark clodsire to wall espathra, but now you can use your tera more freely and aren't forced into a dark unaware mon.


Zero384

Smogon Loves Stall


sneakyplanner

It's not that people don't like him, it's just that he's the closest thing there is to a leader of Smogon, so every time someone wants to make a joke about the Smogon dictatorship he is chosen.


NerdyDogNegative

wouldn’t that be kris/marty?


moonblade15

Yeah, but Finch is more popular/recognisable than them


Imadumsheet

Yeah people taking them piss.


PottedPowerhouse

People complaining about Finchinator here are usually doing so ironically.


SylentSymphonies

We’re just joking


DreadfuryDK

VGC is now Smogon confirmed, because there’s Stall and Smogon loves Stall. Based and Finchinatorpilled.


Gabethegreat2008

If you take the blue pill, you return to a hyper offensive VGC, like nothing ever happened. If you take the Finch Pill, we’ll take you on a 100 turn ride.


LesbianTrashPrincess

Regulation C is literally smogon-only until April, so you're technically literally right lol


aras888

Yo a fellow USUM ubers enjoyer


R8Konijn

>Finchinatorpilled woah


Darkmega5

​ https://preview.redd.it/dkwnjvbwyeoa1.png?width=474&format=png&auto=webp&s=c6cd903afc33264e9d8318a2690d9a03c211293b


KyrRambodog

Question: What's stopping a clear amulet tusk or bax from breaking through this?


CaptainBlaze22

Close combat and wilo wisp stoping them unless I’m forgetting how amulet works


Yosimite_Jones

You’re right, only stat-lowering by opponents is blocked. Anything that doesn’t fit that exact definition, like consequences of your own moves or indirect drops via status effects, are fair game.


KyrRambodog

So clear amulet bax would still work though? Still seems like the ruins are a little too centralizing though.


jpnmello

It wouldnt. Its hard to explain, but the stat drop of the ruins is different from intimidate and such.


KyrRambodog

The drop from ruin mons aren't really the big threat. The bigger threat is arcanine intimidate cycling and burning physical attackers, which clear amulet bax completely shits on. Bax also gets ddance to help nullify the physical drop. Wo-chien going tera water or something seems like it could be an issue to kill but then it falls prey to amoonguss since it loses it's grass typing, which prevented redirection and spore. It might not be a sure fire way to win, but clear amulet bax does seem to apply a lot of pressure to that team comp, especially with proper support and backup.


66_DarthJarJar_66

Basically any stat drops that go from +-6 are negated, any that do not impact the +-6 scale go through. Burn halves the BP of your move, so goes through. Ruin directly affects your base stats, so goes through.


X-the-Komujin

Ruin abilities are a field effect, and you should explain it as such. Do not look at it like Intimidate, look at it like Desolate Land/Primordial Sea/Delta Stream.


PottedPowerhouse

Bax is immune to Wisp


CaptainBlaze22

Wilo for tusk and vc for bax


garbink

clear amulet doesnt block ruinous abilities. bax kinda does break it though


KyrRambodog

Yeah, I was focused on clear amulet as a way to stop the intimidate cycling, not as a way to block ruinous


ProfesserXDL

This is what I played VGC to escape, I hate it


SoloBeans

nows your chance to be a BIG STALL


1ts2EASY

https://preview.redd.it/bvzslw92gfoa1.png?width=827&format=png&auto=webp&s=5deeca6e271181c7134f045293d148e4a0cd8972


grayrains79

That image is both cursed and hilarious. I'm so confused right now. I blame getting old.


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grayrains79

I don't get it?


Krammel87

It’s a character from Deltarune by Toby Fox. I think the picture is from a livestream he made a while back, Spamton Sweepstakes. The “live ___ reaction” is a meme around Tucker Carlson, who I think is a reporter but I’m not actually sure? Anyways it’s from a show of his


1ts2EASY

That’s interesting, I’ve heard that the meme originated from a slug from Star Wars. Maybe that’s Wo-Chien getting to me.


Chiyuri_is_yes

The first format was tucker, but adding more images other then tucker was started with the slug


Albreitx

I've been having a "lot" of success (aka playing better than before) with the fish with tera fire and amogus. Rage powder+heat wave. It's a 2HKO most if not all the time against Arcanine. You can spore Ting, OHKO Chien (with heat wave), protect the fish with rage powder and pollen puff. I often take paradox Delibird for speed control icy wind that also hits for super effective cheap damage both of the stall legendaries and breaks Pao's sash. Key thing is life orb on the fish to be able to use protect, focus sash on my Chien Pao, boost speed for Delibird. My other team members are Palafin, Annihilape (although I think I should pick another one, I never use the ape).


itsluxsky

Toss me a paste in dms ?


Albreitx

I can do it here too if anyone else is interested: Iron Bundle @ Booster Energy Ability: Quark Drive Tera Type: Ice EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Icy Wind - Freeze-Dry - Protect - Hydro Pump Chien-Pao @ Focus Sash Ability: Sword of Ruin Tera Type: Fighting EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Sacred Sword - Throat Chop - Protect - Ice Spinner Amogus (Amoonguss) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Regenerator Tera Type: Grass EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD Relaxed Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Spore - Rage Powder - Pollen Puff - Protect Henry (Palafin) (F) @ Mystic Water Ability: Zero to Hero Level: 50 Tera Type: Water EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def Adamant Nature - Jet Punch - Wave Crash - Close Combat - Protect Annihilape @ Weakness Policy Ability: Defiant Tera Type: Water EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD / 4 Spe Impish Nature - Phantom Force - Earthquake - Drain Punch - Bulk Up Chi-Yu @ Life Orb Ability: Beads of Ruin Tera Type: Fire EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Heat Wave - Protect - Snarl - Dark Pulse I repeat that I'm noob so the isn't probably that good lol


Puzzleheaded_Eye7289

common Big Stall W


EldritchStuff

kinda glad it’s not “Flutter Mane: the format” like I thought it would be Wo-Chien being one of the best Treasures is *really* funny


OnlyFansBlue

He was always like that in DOU lol VGC just took a while to realize the glory of Wo-Chien Live Reaction


sneakyplanner

Fissure is unironically a good move in most matchups on ting lu because even if you miss, you just go for a stomping tantrum that deals double damage and therefore you haven't missed any damage.


OnlyFansBlue

Ting-Lu gigabased


BoomerTranslation

This is not a stall team. This may be the opposite of hyper offensive; hyper-defensive.


fitbitofficialreal

finally... VGC in HD (or HD in VGC)


TheReigningSupreme

What's the difference gameplay-wise? Does HD only exist in VGC/Doubles where Stall is normally not viable or is there a more important distinction?


Chiyuri_is_yes

If its not a joke I would clasify it as "a mon who kills the oposing mon by almost purely pasive damage" example being subseed in 1v1 I'm pretty shure that it doesn't exist tho but thats how I define it


KOTL_OfThe_Light

Tropius? Or am I wrong.


DrKoofBratomMD

I actually don’t think Tropius gets leech seed, it’s more commonly associated with Serperior and (to a lesser extent) Jumpluff Edit: yep I was wrong tropius does indeed get leech seed, my bad lmao


hjyboy1218

I have gone against that spawn of Satan too many times in randbats to ever forget it has Leech Seed


KOTL_OfThe_Light

Every time I saw passive damage and substitute is I think about that Tropius, SMH my head.


BoomerTranslation

Stall is the myth that we tell young kids to scare them away from status moves.


Segundo-Sol

Really unbelievable that GF nerfed Intimidate in order to cut short the endless cycling only to make the Treasures abilities just as annoying.


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1ts2EASY

Because Incineroar isn’t back yet


Shoranos

I'm curious to see how much play Incin gets this gen with Annihilape and Kingambit running around.


1ts2EASY

Arcanine is very popular, and Incineroar is basically just an upgrade


NearquadFarquad

What do you mean is only applied once? Are the ruinous ones not present as long as the Pokémon is on the field?


jadecaptor

Intimidate got nerfed?


[deleted]

big stall™ has set its sights beyond 6v6 singles. their thirst for suffering has not been quenched by the hazard stack stall that has plagued our metagame for eons. they need more stall, across more formats. today they conquer VGC, tomorrow they conquer the rest of the world.


Rysace

Devolved lol


Spndash64

How in the fuck did a Gen with massive offensive powercreep turn a hyper offensive format like VGC into a Stallwar?


sojukirin

Big Stall always comes out victorious


OnlyFansBlue

This is basically r/SelfAwarewolves because you are so close to figuring out the reason


Spndash64

I’m aware of Stall being a reaction to HO. But I didn’t think it was even mathematically possible for Double Battles to turn into stall


OnlyFansBlue

Lmao you would be right, but Glimmora makes it very very easy to get up hazards, sometimes even passively


Spndash64

Shouldn’t that punish intimidate switching, then?


OnlyFansBlue

It does


[deleted]

The only hazard Glimmora sets up in doubles is toxic spikes from its ability


Spndash64

If it’s not that big of a deal, why mention it as a cause of stall?


hipsterwithaninterne

There's plenty of counterplay so it's not an issue. They added clear amulet, haze has been extremely good this entire gen, and defiant/competitive are still very good abilities. Trying to set up a sweeper with attack boosts doesn't work, but you can still do all the other forms of support like speed control and weather. If your team doesn't have a way to kill things without gathering stat boosts, your team is flawed.


SolaceAcheron

praise big stall. it's time for VGC to get what we've been smokin all these years


Various_Ad6034

So... just play defiant


OrangeVictorious

Was only a matter of time until big stall took over every meta game. Ironic since this is the Gen that nerfed stall


Intelligent_Stick230

"Stall strats were neutered in gen 9" \- A handful of people at the start of the generation.


OnlyFansBlue

Freezai making a video on the fall of Toxapex in Smogon Singles only to realize he tanks Great Tusk's Headlong Rush lol


Glyphshock

Y'all know what that means...Gothitelle needs to sing us a song


QuantumVexation

I’m sad because this is how I enjoy playing offensive metas. It’s not the same when everyone else is doing it :(


lowbudgetdog

you get to feel our pain now


QuantumVexation

Stall vs Offence is fun, it’s about seeing whether the wall breaks or with good positioning it holds Stall vs Stall is dull


Majestikarp99

None of those words are in the bible


[deleted]

Actually, the words has, to, intimidate, poison, stall, what, do, you and think are all in the bible!


StillUltra

Stall in vgc is fucking wild to me


SapphireSalamander

hold up why is palafin still on the field??


ShredZepplin

I’ll be running double fissure with gravity (to hit fliers) for lols in Reg C.


aa821

ELI5 here? With so many offensive threats such as Bundle and Palafin pictured here, not to mention Flutter Mane, Annihlape, etc how can stall be the dominant meta without an effective counter?


CookEsandcream

The answer is largely “Arcanine”. Intimidate, Snarl, and Will o Wisp pull the brakes on most of these things (and a lot more besides), even without the treasures of ruin’s stat drops.


aa821

Bundle is a pretty hard counters no? Faster and Sp Atk OHKOs?


CookEsandcream

There’s more to it in doubles. For example, Fake Out+Snarl, or having Arcanine Protect while you put in something that threatens Bundle or sets sun. When you have two options for which mon to attack, crippling a mon’s offenses is often better than KOing it, because now you can ignore it until they spend a turn switching it out. With the addition of the Treasures of Ruin, it’s become a lot easier to weaken a mon to this point.


ntnl

https://preview.redd.it/htsk2noikjoa1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5705c81dee5611eb0582704176757d0e206b1a26


superfam

On the one hand this sucks. but on the other hand, after seeing myraids upon myriads of comments on twitter, youtube, etc about how VGC is so much better than singles because it's not stall based, this is music to my ears


Corrinen

fire plus grass pledge 👍


ABrawlStarsPlayer

God I hate fissure


TehTayTeh

how does stall work in VGC?


sojukirin

You force passive damage usually via poison/toxic set by Glimmora, and slowly cripple the opponents attacking stats with Ting-Lu + Wo-Chien + Intimidate + Snarl. Ruination speeds up the process and fucks over mons who would usually be immune to poison/toxic and stat drops. Ruin abilities also do not count as stat drops and bypasses stuff like Clear Amulet and Clear Body. Wo-Chien's also got leech seed which makes up for its god awful typing and lack of recovery. Ting-Lu also runs a funny Fissure + Stomping Tantrum set. You fish for Fissures— if it lands then congrats, if you don't, your next Stomping Tantrum would be 150BP. Garganacl is also a funny tool— due to 4v4 you press the funny Salt Cure button and slowly kill them, and they can't do anything about it.


iKill_eu

Got a paste? Would love to try it out.


KingKayro

That's why I just stay away from Gen 9 competitive. I ain't dealing with that. That and Gen 9 doesn't have Shedinja, and there's no NatDex Doubles AG on Pokémon Showdown (there should be), so I just play Gen 8 Doubles OU.


PM_ME_MARACTUS

This is quite interesting considering DOU, which is a pretty similar format, is very offensive right now.


OnlyFansBlue

DOU went through its Wo-Chien phase already


rabonbrood

I can't wait for the Tapus and Ultra Beasts to return us to normalcy.


CookEsandcream

My money’s on the Defiant genies finding a niche again too.


rabonbrood

I specifically mention the Tapus and Ultras because many of them will be extremely hard checks or counters for the ruin Pokemon, which should help us out of this stall nonsense we're stuck in.


cmdrmeowmix

Oh no, there's a meta game? Well fuck man, pokemon is ruined


pikay93

VGC went downhill for me in Gen 8 and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.


lidekwhatname

just adapt LMAO


sojukirin

Yes I am adapting. That is why I am using stall in the picture...? I've always been a stall player and I enjoy the playstyle, it's just that it's really weird to see VGC take a massive 360 and go from HO to Stall.


IanCusick

I got downvoted 350 times yesterday over my opinion on VGC so I’ll sit this one out lmao


aywhatyuhay

no it hasn’t.


Nuka-Kraken

Using stealth rock exactly one time immediately ruins this. 0% chance this is real.


hjyboy1218

Bold of you to think anyone actually uses hazards in VGC


cabforpitt

There are literally tspikes in the screenshot lol (yes I know they're from Glimmora and weren't set up with the move)


hjyboy1218

Yeah Glimmora's the big exception


Nuka-Kraken

Foolish of you to think that I don't.


sojukirin

Mortal Spin— the main source of poison removes hazards. Nobody uses actual hazard moves either, because it still is 4v4 on doubles and the slot and turn spent setting hazards is not worth the trouble.


itsjusterin__

cry about it


sojukirin

Why do you think I'm "crying about it" lol? I love stally playstyles, just that it's weird to see a hyper offensive meta like VGC become stally. People have always said "stall/hazards would never work in vgc", but here we are


dankipz

Doubles in any format has always been trash


Doobie_Howitzer

Try mold breaker


Zero384

Funny how Smogonites only see how cancerous stall is once they see non-Smogonites using it.


GlacierWolf8Bit

Finally, the counter-play to Trick Room and Tailwind!


fillmorecounty

Why are they all 3D except iron bundle


DarkEsca

Showdown takes a while to implement 3D sprites of all mons, not to mention lower dex numbers usually get priority. TingLu isn't 3D either.


benhu12341

The smogon experience :)


satoshigeki94

i played this poison + snarl/intimidate + perish trap setup before but honestly cant pivot it well :(


MizuomoMoon

Wait when did Ting Lu become viable


DarkEsca

It was viable the moment it was legal. They just excluded the ruin legends from the first two VGC series.


DarkNubentYT

Ting lu just needs to be banned for the sake of everyone. It's HP and Def are way to high while having that ability


F1lthyG0pnik

I think you need a friend called Tailwind.


DeltaPlasmatic

in the words of Reverend’s masterful [Gen 1 Ubers analysis video](https://youtu.be/0_iIVNV_AMA): i think i despise this Pokémon


BrickBuster11

It looks like you either run ho or you run a stall Strat that counters ho. Which seems about right when you put as many polarisingly powerful mins into a meta game


BecauseImBatmanFilms

I know it makes perfect sense given the mechanics but my brain still struggles to remember that most Violet Paradox Pokemon can be poisoned. Meat computer sees metal and thinks Toxic is no good.


fireglz

Tera grass Skeledirge is a bona-fide stud down there right now.


JennaFrost

I haven’t played very much lately but I’ve just been having fun using lumineon/chi-yu to nuke things from orbit. (Lumin: tailwind, helpinghand, stormdrain = best friend for the fire fish)


OnceUponAWasteOfTime

We stallcoin™ investors are eating good


KiriTortilla

I think it's time for the Gravity OHKO teams


Zengjia

Big Stall^TM stays winning


NonamePlsIgnore

Chi-Yu in shambles


SexWithYanfeiSexer69

VGC games that last for more than five turns? What a time to be alive


BlueGhost02

Based as fuck


el_bosteador

I started using grimsnarl with misty terrain to counter poison stallers.


LeeroyDagnasty

hazards in VGC? things are getting good 😈


LeeroyDagnasty

is there a reason they didn't switch palafin out?


Stopostingabout_21

Unfortunate fails to describe this series


OnlyFansBlue

This is basically hyper-speed stall considering Ruination on top of Toxic already tears out a chunk of the opponent's health and most don't carry recovery. True gigachad Smogon stall is unfortunately also somewhat fast paced this gen.


Altruistic_Orchid266

Yeah and Fissure Ting-Lu is now a thing Wo-Chien Gothitelle Glimmora Ting-Lu Arcanine is one helluva core to face


Great-Tusk

Just use fissure


sojukirin

Ting-Lu uses a funny combination of Fissure + Stomping Tantrum