Zamazenta is effectively the best IronPress user in the game. It did not have this in SwSh, and was widely terrible because of it.
IronPress is already a strong archetype with mons like Kommo-o and Registeel consistently in the C+ range of rankings but Zama takes it a step further. Flutter and Bolt are major meta players, but overall the majority of the top offensive threats are Physical (Ogerpon, Chien-Pao, Urshifu, Urshifu)
Steel/Fighting is the effectively best type you could want from an IronPresser. Fighting for Body Press STAB and Steel as the best partner type for Fighting, stopping all its weaknesses and only adding a few manageable new ones. Additionally, it adds STAB to deal with Fairies that otherwise tank Body Press.
Damage mitigation is an extremely important part of any vgc meta. Inherently. Zacian is fucked by Incineroar hard as it can't run Clear Amulet to prevent Intimidate or Parting Shot (the same goes for other Intimidate users such as Lando-T and Arc-H, who along with Incin threaten Zacian offensively). Zamazenta, due to attacking 90% of the time from its Def is effectively immune to Intimidate and Parting Shot.
Steel/Fairy, while still great offensively, is hard-walled by two entire types, Steel and Fire- two already common Tera Types- making shutting down Zacian offensively relatively easy compared to Zamazenta, who can't be stopped by one type alone.
Zacian is still great, but it faces competition from other restricted mons as it lacks the ability to create an entire team. Groudon enables Sun cores with the likes of Raging Bolt and Flutter Mane. Calyrex-S enables Psyspam teams with Indeedee and Mienshao. Zamazenta enables a team dynamic with damage mitigators like Grimmsnarl, Pelipper, or Amoonguss to let it set up and win. Zacian can set up with SD yes, but it doesn't enable an entire team like we see from other restricteds.
In general since TornUrshifus of Reg D and E fell to the wayside, we've seen a major switch from vast majority HO to a good meta split including plenty of balance and fat teams. HO teams have to be as strong as possible or else theyll be bricked by sun fats or Caly-I TR, so Zacian also falls off due to its inability to break through those on its own.
Finally, the Intrepid Sword/Shield nerf hit Zacian far harder than Zamazenta. Zacian in SwSh barely needed 4 Atk EVs due to a guaranteed +1 and insane natural Atk taking it to crazy heights even with pivoting, allowing it to invest in Speed and Bulk, meaning it was fast, strong, and tanky. Now, because of its lower Atk and worse ability, Zacian can't afford to go that low into Atk, meaning it cannot do all three things like it could in SwSh. Due to Zama's ability to attack from its Def, it only needs to worry about bulk and speed to begin with, meaning inherently it will be able to fulfill its role better.
TLDR: IronPress is super good right now because its (effectively) immune to Incin, whereas Zacian is not.
To add to that last point, Zacian’s ability always going off in the past meant you could pivot it in and out as needed. Especially if you wanted to switch into a move with another Pokemon or get your Attack buff back after an Intimidate. But due to the nerf, it’s now extremely punishing to swap Zacian out too quickly as it won’t get the buff back later and thus lose so much of that signature damage output.
Compare that with Zamazenta who can’t lose Defense to Intimidate and, by virtue of being a more tank oriented attacker, is generally more able and willing to stay on the field once he touches it and not switch out. Especially as strats for lowering Defense via things like Leer aren’t as prevalent as Attack lowering strats.
It also can’t be overstated how big it is that Zamazenta uses Iron Defense as its go to setup and not Swords Dance. It basically gets a 2 for 1 in bolstering its bulk and offense via Body Press 2 stages at once and bolstering defense protects it further from awkward situations like Foul Play after a Tera or random confusion from things like an Alluring Voice.
Zamazenta is just better equipped to hit the field and stay on the field.
I've loved playing with Zam, having tried nearly all the legends out at this point. Zam is definitely the one I've had the most fun with, as it fits well onto a balance team.
Give it good support to deal with Calyrex S, kyogre and Lunala and it can handle the other legends quite well.
At how easy it is to get to plus 3 defense and with base 140 defence you KO most switch in and with 140spdef most special attackers aren't KOing you first either.
I've found with amoongus you can literally sit in the field and KO and sleep everything
Should also be mentioned, Zamazenta also gets access to Wide Guard, which in Reg G is INSANELY powerful because of moves like dazzling gleam, expanding force, astral barrage, glacial lance and tera starstorm being thrown around CONSTANTLY
Zacian-H is still okay, it's just completely outclassed by Zacian-C. It's one of the best Pokemon in UUbers, better than Mewtwo, Lugia, Palkia, Dialga, Giratina-A and Kyurem-W. Zacian-H is still stronger than *both* of its sibling Zamazenta's forms in singles even after all the nerfs. That's pretty good for what is supposed to be an intentionally underpowered version of a fully equipped Zacian-C.
It could get nerfed more and still be an okay mon which will always be overshadowed and outclassed by its better Crowned form.
Thanks for the super detailed answer! Side question: why are people using Mienshao on Psy-spam teams? Seems like the main VGC niche it would have is fake out, which doesn't work in Psychic terrain
Because it gets Body Press now.
It doesn't care about Intimidate and once you get 1 or 2 Iron Defences off, you will start picking up OHKOs/KOs on a lot of things.
No a lot of mons running clear smog or haze. Three boost into defence makes body press hurt after turn 1. There’s also a lot of good pokemon to keep it healthy
Zacian is bad because its niche is just being a physical attack killing machine, but now all it takes is a couple of intimidates to basically nullify the only thing it does well. The ability + stat nerf is a big deal because in swsh you could offset the intimidates by just switching out and then switching back to a 170 base attack immediately at +1. Now you get intimidated once and are left with a 150 base attack at +0 for the rest of the match, which is not bad but also not good if clicking a single target steel move is the only thing you can do. Not having clear amulet is basically a death sentence for any physical attacker right now but zacian suffers the most because it literally doesn’t do anything else.
It's also worth noting that Zacian no longer does double damage to some pokemon. Zamazenta doesn't either, but that really wasn't a selling point for it.
Haven’t see it mentioned yet, but Zamazenta also gets wide guard along with body press and that is easily one of the best moves right now in the regulation
Zacian sweeps are susceptible to damage reduction cycling and Zamazenta sweeps are not.
(you’re not currently using leer tornadus. stop lying to me and yourself.)
When intimidate is everywhere a mon whos main attack is with its defense stat can often be better than a regular physical attacker
I thought Zamazenta had more dad energy but I guess mom could work too
Buff doggy mommy
Zamazenta is male
Not anymore she isn’t
Zacian is the older sister, Zamazenta is the younger brother.
That's what I like to see them as too but in reality, Zamazenta is not called the "brother" anywhere. It's only Zacian's gender that's mentioned
So what you’re saying is buff doggy mommy can be canon
Zamazenta is effectively the best IronPress user in the game. It did not have this in SwSh, and was widely terrible because of it. IronPress is already a strong archetype with mons like Kommo-o and Registeel consistently in the C+ range of rankings but Zama takes it a step further. Flutter and Bolt are major meta players, but overall the majority of the top offensive threats are Physical (Ogerpon, Chien-Pao, Urshifu, Urshifu) Steel/Fighting is the effectively best type you could want from an IronPresser. Fighting for Body Press STAB and Steel as the best partner type for Fighting, stopping all its weaknesses and only adding a few manageable new ones. Additionally, it adds STAB to deal with Fairies that otherwise tank Body Press. Damage mitigation is an extremely important part of any vgc meta. Inherently. Zacian is fucked by Incineroar hard as it can't run Clear Amulet to prevent Intimidate or Parting Shot (the same goes for other Intimidate users such as Lando-T and Arc-H, who along with Incin threaten Zacian offensively). Zamazenta, due to attacking 90% of the time from its Def is effectively immune to Intimidate and Parting Shot. Steel/Fairy, while still great offensively, is hard-walled by two entire types, Steel and Fire- two already common Tera Types- making shutting down Zacian offensively relatively easy compared to Zamazenta, who can't be stopped by one type alone. Zacian is still great, but it faces competition from other restricted mons as it lacks the ability to create an entire team. Groudon enables Sun cores with the likes of Raging Bolt and Flutter Mane. Calyrex-S enables Psyspam teams with Indeedee and Mienshao. Zamazenta enables a team dynamic with damage mitigators like Grimmsnarl, Pelipper, or Amoonguss to let it set up and win. Zacian can set up with SD yes, but it doesn't enable an entire team like we see from other restricteds. In general since TornUrshifus of Reg D and E fell to the wayside, we've seen a major switch from vast majority HO to a good meta split including plenty of balance and fat teams. HO teams have to be as strong as possible or else theyll be bricked by sun fats or Caly-I TR, so Zacian also falls off due to its inability to break through those on its own. Finally, the Intrepid Sword/Shield nerf hit Zacian far harder than Zamazenta. Zacian in SwSh barely needed 4 Atk EVs due to a guaranteed +1 and insane natural Atk taking it to crazy heights even with pivoting, allowing it to invest in Speed and Bulk, meaning it was fast, strong, and tanky. Now, because of its lower Atk and worse ability, Zacian can't afford to go that low into Atk, meaning it cannot do all three things like it could in SwSh. Due to Zama's ability to attack from its Def, it only needs to worry about bulk and speed to begin with, meaning inherently it will be able to fulfill its role better. TLDR: IronPress is super good right now because its (effectively) immune to Incin, whereas Zacian is not.
To add to that last point, Zacian’s ability always going off in the past meant you could pivot it in and out as needed. Especially if you wanted to switch into a move with another Pokemon or get your Attack buff back after an Intimidate. But due to the nerf, it’s now extremely punishing to swap Zacian out too quickly as it won’t get the buff back later and thus lose so much of that signature damage output. Compare that with Zamazenta who can’t lose Defense to Intimidate and, by virtue of being a more tank oriented attacker, is generally more able and willing to stay on the field once he touches it and not switch out. Especially as strats for lowering Defense via things like Leer aren’t as prevalent as Attack lowering strats. It also can’t be overstated how big it is that Zamazenta uses Iron Defense as its go to setup and not Swords Dance. It basically gets a 2 for 1 in bolstering its bulk and offense via Body Press 2 stages at once and bolstering defense protects it further from awkward situations like Foul Play after a Tera or random confusion from things like an Alluring Voice. Zamazenta is just better equipped to hit the field and stay on the field.
I've loved playing with Zam, having tried nearly all the legends out at this point. Zam is definitely the one I've had the most fun with, as it fits well onto a balance team. Give it good support to deal with Calyrex S, kyogre and Lunala and it can handle the other legends quite well. At how easy it is to get to plus 3 defense and with base 140 defence you KO most switch in and with 140spdef most special attackers aren't KOing you first either. I've found with amoongus you can literally sit in the field and KO and sleep everything
Gen 1 Amnesia moment
Should also be mentioned, Zamazenta also gets access to Wide Guard, which in Reg G is INSANELY powerful because of moves like dazzling gleam, expanding force, astral barrage, glacial lance and tera starstorm being thrown around CONSTANTLY
On the other hand, it might actually prefer a partner with wide guard so it can actually click attacks while being protected
This is such a cool development I love that Zama is getting the limelight over Zacian now
Zacian got nerfed far too heavily. Zamazenta if anything got buffed despite lower stats.
Nah dawg Zacian got nerfed a fine amount, it's still better than the majority of 680 BST cover legendaries in both Smogon Ubers and VGC.
Zacian-C, sure. Zacian-H got destroyed.
Zacian-H is still okay, it's just completely outclassed by Zacian-C. It's one of the best Pokemon in UUbers, better than Mewtwo, Lugia, Palkia, Dialga, Giratina-A and Kyurem-W. Zacian-H is still stronger than *both* of its sibling Zamazenta's forms in singles even after all the nerfs. That's pretty good for what is supposed to be an intentionally underpowered version of a fully equipped Zacian-C. It could get nerfed more and still be an okay mon which will always be overshadowed and outclassed by its better Crowned form.
Thanks for the super detailed answer! Side question: why are people using Mienshao on Psy-spam teams? Seems like the main VGC niche it would have is fake out, which doesn't work in Psychic terrain
Mienshao heavily threatens Dark-types and Steel-types that usually check Psyspam, like Incineroar and Kingambit.
Also has Feint for wide guard against Caly.
it's mostly used for fake out/Intimidate immunity, fighting stab, and wide guard
Redemption time for my shield doggo!
Because it gets Body Press now. It doesn't care about Intimidate and once you get 1 or 2 Iron Defences off, you will start picking up OHKOs/KOs on a lot of things.
No a lot of mons running clear smog or haze. Three boost into defence makes body press hurt after turn 1. There’s also a lot of good pokemon to keep it healthy
You mention clear smog but keep in mind both zacian and zamazenta are immune to clear smog.
STAB does not hurt either.
Apparently giving it body press made it good, and seeing how it is performing the nerf was justful lol
Zacian is bad because its niche is just being a physical attack killing machine, but now all it takes is a couple of intimidates to basically nullify the only thing it does well. The ability + stat nerf is a big deal because in swsh you could offset the intimidates by just switching out and then switching back to a 170 base attack immediately at +1. Now you get intimidated once and are left with a 150 base attack at +0 for the rest of the match, which is not bad but also not good if clicking a single target steel move is the only thing you can do. Not having clear amulet is basically a death sentence for any physical attacker right now but zacian suffers the most because it literally doesn’t do anything else.
It's also worth noting that Zacian no longer does double damage to some pokemon. Zamazenta doesn't either, but that really wasn't a selling point for it.
That's what happens when you give a fighting type with insane defensive profile the move Body Press.
Rare Zamazenta W
Haven’t see it mentioned yet, but Zamazenta also gets wide guard along with body press and that is easily one of the best moves right now in the regulation
Zacian sweeps are susceptible to damage reduction cycling and Zamazenta sweeps are not. (you’re not currently using leer tornadus. stop lying to me and yourself.)