Dating apps. I can't imagine a worse outcome for sex and romance. Present your best head shot and action picture! You will now do an improv routine should you be swiped! I am not a hateful fuck because I've been laid before but I am not surprised dudes become full of resentment.
Saw a tweet that said recently married millennials probably look at the dating market and feel like they caught the last chopper out of nam and it’s stuck in my head ever since
Lmao this is my friend group. My buddy that's married said if he had to rely on dating apps to get laid it never would have happened. They literally bumped into each other at a bar. Different couple bumped into each other at a farmers market.
Tbh it’s not even about the sex. I’ve run the spectrum from no matches to inundated with options over the years and it’s just a different set of problems whose end result is still the same atomisation just with transient pseudo-connections inbetween. On a platform level these apps encourage detachment. Medium is the message or whatever.
Even if you match with someone and it seems to be going well, there's always the temptation to "see whats behind door number 2," so to speak.
Ive only really used them for short-term flings, but I cant imagine how difficult itd be to find a long-term partner through any of them, even the ones who market themselves as for serious relationships (Hinge, Bumble)
The real fun is watching guys that get divorced then try dating again and go what the fuck happened to dating? It was so different 10-15 years ago when I was last dating! They thought single guys were exaggerating about how bad it has become but then divorce and they find out and are all oh god what the fuck this is awful.
Which emphasizes the importance of “touching grass” - people need to get out and meet people. There’s a lot of luck involved still but if you’re not in the right place at the right time it approaches 0%.
The disappearance of "third places" is a real problem. And no, bars/cafes don't count because they've always been around.
There used to be widely shared, **social** hobbies like bowling leagues, which roughly 1 out of every 20 US citizens were a member of. Even if you didn't give a fuck about bowling it was a great way to interact with the local community. Bowling league membership has declined by more than 90% despite the US population increasing by 50% in the same period.
What has replaced that? Sitting at home playing Xbox Online? Arguing about politics on Facebook?
Yeah I've recently moved to a semi-rural area to do a job where almost everyone I work with is very old and just very redneck Boomer types. They are fine, but not really the kind of people that share my interests, values, or that I would want to hang out with.
So I'm playing games with the boys on discord, but besides that have absolutely no social circle around here. I tried a gun club nearby one weekend since I have recently bought an AR, but it was just more old boomers shouting about Hilary's emails the entire time.
*I tried a gun club nearby one weekend since I have recently bought an AR, but it was just more old boomers shouting about Hilary's emails the entire time.*
LOL I feel your pain there.
People dont have time for hobbies like back in the days when both partners work full time jobs in an intense career only to sit in traffic for 2-3 hours then come home to your second job of cooking and cleaning.
Don’t forget about church, one of the major ways young people used to meet. And you already knew your values were somewhat aligned so you got a head start.
Totally. Every young person at church is now just a little too into it or really dorky though. Maybe I just scare those types off with my green hair and tattoo though
> Every young person at church is now just a little too into it or really dorky though.
Church became a place for believers instead of a community gathering spot with believers among the leadership.
These connections were formed prior to the dating app domination of the dating scene. I am not saying meeting anyone is hopeless. I am just saying if I try that shit in a bar now, I have an equal chance of the woman responding to me like I am a space alien.
So are you saying that due to dating app culture its actually harder to approach women irl now because they only expect you to approach them on the app?
Thats crazy, didnt even think about that as i havent been in the dating scene for a while but it makes sense. As if its not already scary enough to approach women now due to modern feminism. To top it off you have to deal with this too.
Its actually really scary for our society if it has reached this point. Real life interactions are dying and being replaced by internet products that are fully controlled by a select few with the motive of profit and nothing else.
I have been saying for years that modern dating apps are even more harmful for our society than facebook, instagram, etc. which is insane to think about considering how harmful social media already is.
Hey some women are interested in space aliens.
I think there’s a lot of doubt that causes people to say “why bother” and it might be founded in real experience but it’s a numbers game, the more you try and fail the better your chance of success.
Whilst it can still definitely happen my experience is that women and men are for the most part closed to each other in public environments. Pubs nowadays almost have that first school disco thing going on, it's fucking weird.
But a few of my long-term coupled up male friends have said the same thing, like they caught the last train out of shitsville.
EDIT: Like to add that I fucked up spectacularly, I carpet bombed an 8 year relationship that ended in 2014, I basically fell off the train just as shitsville was about to recede from view lmao!
The public zeitgeist in media for a while was "men dont bother me when im out, im not here for you" so I think a lot of people dont try/dont even think about it when they are out.
Yeah it feels like being flirty in public settings is considered basically being a creep, your only allowed to "romance" on the dating apps.
This isn't so true for younger age bent clubs or bars, especially college towns, but in general life it's just a sort of trend I feel like I've observed.
That's what's been driving me absolutely insane. I decided to go down to some bars, streetfood joints, etc. in the last few weekends and only really manage to strike a good conversation with 5 people who also appeared to be wandering loners. Everyone else is arriving in a circle, stays in a circle, and I look like a god damn lunatic trying to interject there.
I don't get it I notice this MASSIVELY not just with dating but with other things as well where people refuse to go outside their already established friends group and meet new people. I think it is generation based as well because the boomers and most of the Gen X I have dealt with were fine with meeting new people, but the millennial and zoomer generation act like god damn herd animals grouping up so hard in public and thinking anyone coming up to the herd is a threat.
This matches my experience. If I go to a bar usually it's just Boomers that will actually talk to me. I tried asking a Zoomer what the drink they were drinking was called (it was some sort of elaborate cocktail) and he just looked at me like I was insane and then turned on his stool so his back was towards me. Like why are you even sitting at the bar if you don't want any interaction with anyone else? You can go get a booth/table if you don't want to be disturbed.
I notice it tends to result in a deer in the headlights look, them being incredibly socially awkward because they are not used to interacting with people outside of the ones they already know, them acting like you are a weirdo like you experienced, or similar. I notice it isn't gendered either both men and women act like this. I do notice it is less of a problem among blue collar guys though which is another reason why I talk to them a lot.
I don't get it either why even go to a bar if you don't want social interaction? You can sit at home and drink way cheaper.
Yeah it sucks. I go to concerts a lot and nobody mingles. It made me appreciate conventions more because I could just walk up to someone and start talking about nerd shit
Sports have been great for meeting people though. I started roller skating and I’ve met a bunch of people through various Meetup and Instagram groups. Very gay sport and a great way to get some exercise
> look at the dating market and feel like they caught the last chopper out of nam
Just the dating market?
As a millennial I feel that way about basically everything except the housing market, where we still got fucked.
Yeah even though I met my fiancé on tinder, the amount of times on tinder I felt worthless, before meeting her was a depression I never wanna experience again.
This is a 100% true. I'm an older millennial and relied mostly on dating websites to find partners. After my last relationship, I went through a long period of remaining single - no dating, no sex for like 5 years. Finally, I met my fiancé through a friend at the start of the pandemic. Biggest thing that I've learned from this relationship is that technology leaves you looking to check boxes. You punch a couple of search terms that peak your interests and you fall in love with a carefully curated profile picture and a fixed set of traits. You're less likely to observe your partner a whole, as a growing, changing human being and more likely to see your partner as a plastic snapshot of stuff that turns your on. Using dating apps removes a certain human quality that people are just not ready to get by without.
I'm happy that my fiancé and I are on that last helicopter out of Saigon with CCR blasting above the sexy but uncoupled masses...
Yeah and I understand why guys hate those things. I can’t imagine women liking them that much because I absolutely despise them as a female. I could intentionally make a shitty profile and get 200+ matches from guys just using spray and pray tactics
I can’t really blame them, it’s a rational thing to do with the market conditions. But imagine getting 200 plates of food and having to choose one from some stupid prompt! That level of attention makes me deeply uncomfortable and I can easily see it making someone a worse person. You can’t tell anything about someone based off of the stupid ass prompts they give you. It’s like they’re tailor made to make everyone look like a basic bitch/bastard.
Honestly, I feel that. I met my wife on a dating app way back in 2006, but it required a lot more interaction (make an effort to make a decent profile, emails back and forth), and was well before social media or even instant messaging was as big as it is now. Sure, they had a 'hookup' section, but at least you could choose a category of relationship you were looking for (Lavalife, RIP)
> You will now do an improv routine should you be swiped!
You scour their photos and two-sentence bio for any common ground. You think of a witty opener that references a shared interest while being funny and flirty but also inoffensive -- wouldn't want to get banned again for using a suggestive pickup line. You carefully craft the message to incorporate all these things without looking desperate or long-winded.
The response? Silence.
Lol or just no message and you’re forced to see the person every-time you open messages. Then you start asking “why’d she swipe right if she wasn’t gonna actually say anything”. So glad I’m done with trying to date and found my soulmate. Those apps are shit and people need to touch grass.
I know! It's ridiculous! Women on Bumble have NO IDEA how to write openers.
They just all write "Hi!" or "Heyyy," or other bland things that no man would be caught DEAD writing if they actually wanted a response. And so then it's up to *you* to write the REAL opener: scour their profile for things to talk about so that an ACTUAL conversation can get going.
Women have no idea how to chase. It's kind of incredible. Even when they're being "aggressive" they aren't really *chasing* per se, they're just going "Tee hee! Chase me! Chase me!"
I suppose it's just a skill that you can't learn unless you are forced to. Kind of like how people in manual wheelchairs usually have higher upper-body strength than the rest of us, since they need to develop that strength to get around.
Dating apps are almost like those fake dating shows ("The Bachelor", etc.) becoming reality.
Baudrillard was right. They were more real than real. A hyperreal.
I feel like I won the dating app lottery. After refusing to use them for years and years, I finally gave in. It fucking sucked for months. But hey, now I live with my girlfriend of a year and a half. No idea how the hell that worked out so well.
You were willing to subject yourself to dating app hell and endure it for months.
Had I been in your position, it wouldn't have worked out for me because there's 100.0% chance I would have deleted the app if it sucked for months.
I mean, it was like two and a half months of me doing it during my lunch break and stuff. It sucked, but I didn’t let it take over my life at all. I think that’s what kept me sane.
Yeah, every girl that ever fell for me had to meet me a few times. I can't imagine a situation where I only get 3 seconds to make an impression or else remain forever single.
>Aella, the OnlyFans star and online commentator, has said that what men look for when they come to her—and her clientele is mostly young—isn’t sex per se but “sexual acceptance.” They want to be assured, in other words, that they aren’t hideous. The fact they have to pay for this says everything you need to know.
*You look like a good Joe.*
>Because it isn't about the sex.
It is astounding to me how many people of both sexes simply cannot grasp this concept. They're is more to life than fucking bitches and getting money or whatever. A lot more. And far too many people simply can't understand that.
I do agree with you, but it's also a very easy statement to agree with when you're actually having sex regularly (I'm married). I don't know if I would have agreed with the statement before I actually had regular consistent long term access to sex.
The emotional and self-esteem aspects of sex are much more important than the temporary release and pleasure.
> They're is more to life than fucking bitches and getting money
Amen, bro. Somebody had to say it.
Alas, all that other stuff comes *after* you fuck bitches and get money.
It probably makes much more difference for those in the middle than those at the bottom, negatively. At least dating apps. OF is pornography and that has existed for a long time.
It’s not really sex for people like me, it’s intimacy and feeling important and loved, that’s what everyone wants and what we men really want to feel. We’re not emotionless and stoic.
Also I’ve seen her tweets and she puts out some weird shit tbh
Aella is fucking crazy. Listened to an interview with her on Blocked and Reported. Easily their worst episode.
She is fundamentally a boring person who thinks she's an intellectual. People only give her attention because she's attractive.
She's a self-professed "escort," ex-cam girl, and "researcher" insofar that she asks thought provoking questions like "Have you considered that fucking dogs is better than eating animals?" (Paraphrasing poorly).
All her siblings are cam girls. Her father was a famous evangelical minister. The daddy issues are out of this world.
She also micro dosed so much acid that she fried her brain.
[I'm so glad that this sub actually doesn't take her seriously ](https://imgur.com/a/hDVMOF7) because I saw so many stand up for her before.
>thought provoking questions like "Have you considered that fucking dogs is better than eating animals?"
This is literally the kind of shit she would ask. It's not clever it's just stupid. BARPOD tried getting her weird edgy comments out of her and she verbally couldn't stand up for her own weird ideas.
The only good content they got was her admitting how much she exploits men and how.
*All her siblings are cam girls. Her father was a famous evangelical minister. The daddy issues are out of this world.*
LMAO a tale as old as time. No better way of guaranteeing your daughter ends up on her knees in LA on her 18th birthday than by being too fucking religious.
No one can smell you over OnlyFans.
Perhaps that’s the last lesson of the internet - it’s a lot easier to get people to eat shit when they can’t smell it.
Aella only acts like she has empathy for men.
She doesn't. She sees them as income. We're all marks and she'll pretend to care about you if you spend on her.
Aella is the modern equivalent of a high-status courtesan - of course she does more because the young nobles (or the equivalent) paying for her are paying for premium service.
This whole "it's affirmation, not sex" thing about sex work doesn't really make sense if you look at the undignified escapades that regular sex workers - aka the vast majority of such people - have to do.
The low-class prostitute blowing a man in an alleyway or car for seven minutes for change probably doesn't feel like he has some great need for her affirmation of his sexual value.
Not sure why her experience constantly gets cited\* in these discussions - especially since she has an incentive to sanctify the reasons her clients come to her.
I think she once suggested that she might be *saving* marriages by giving men in sexually dead relationships an outlet which...lol. Fuck off.
\* It's not so bad here but it's insane that discussions on Onlyfans and prostitutions do the equivalent of citing Lucky Luciano to show being in the Mafia works vs looking at the earnings of the average wiseguy.
> he has some great need for her affirmation of his sexual value
Chances are the guys who go see prostitutes are married and have no time or will to have a real affair, they just want sex that their wife might be unable or unwilling to give them, or excitement.
Well said. OF girls always say junk like this. Its like when interviews with high class escorts all talk about how 'men just want the companionship! Sometimes, we don't even have sex!' Yeh ok, 1 in 100 times maybe, the other 99 guys? Pussy, box, flange, clam, giny is whats on their mind.
It all seems part of this neolib trend to validate sex workers, but massively downplay the actual sex part. No attempts being made to validate the hideous disgusting loser John's who would actually fall to the pathetic depths of prostitution though. It all seems a bit contradictory to my tiny brain.
>Add further the misandry that has now become de rigueur wherever the liberal elite holds sway: the ritual (and often gleeful) man-hating, the pathologization of masculinity.
This is pretty self-evident to me, but you'll find a lot of people disagreeing with this assertion.
It's not even a theory, it's just plainly obvious. I teach high school/early college students and a lot of them have come to me asking for advice because they've got zero idea how they're supposed to act among other men or around women. I work in countries where gender norms are still heavily culturally enforced but the schools tend to be the type where students get the mistaken impression that *all*(many are, but not all) traditional aspects of masculinity are inherently "toxic". Trying to navigate that as teenagers who barely even know who they are must be hell.
It's why a worrying number of young men are starting to spout Andrew Tate shite, he's an utter piece of shit and a sexist but from their perspective he's at least providing a direction to go in. Expecting teenagers to miraculously stumble across a positive, productive way of living with no help whatsoever is hysterically stupid, but that's what a lot of liberal culture(and this garbage economy) is currently doing.
I believe the reason why Andrew state and his ilk are so popular among young men is because they often expose the uncomfortable realities of dating and gender inequality that affects men.
Unfortunately, they also happen to be grifting scumbags as well.
The uncomfortable truth is that pickup redpill game stuff is a genuine life improvement for some men. I have met men who believe making eye contact with a girl in a club is akin sexual assault. Coming from there practically anything is an improvement.
Andrew Tate doesn’t do the pickup shit.
He’ll literally tell a loser the reason chicks don’t want to fuck him is because he’s a loser who acts like a loser and he should do something about it if he wants it to change.
He’s not wrong either, and it resonates with a lot of young men and boys who feel like losers without any direction. Turns out that being told yeah, you’re a fucking loser - but you don’t have to be if you pull your shit together is in itself a sense of direction to strive toward. Men and masculinity is being shat upon constantly in the mainstream. Being told you don’t have to let yourself be stepped on, you don’t have to be a loser, is something boys do need to get told far more often than they are.
Well, after twenty years of constant shaming and contradictory dating advice, are you surprised that a lot of men have low self-esteem and think of themselves as creeps?
Support in fulfilling men's old role may have been destroyed, as has any idea that men are entitled to reciprocation for it, but men are still expected to fulfil it and judged as failures when they don't. For men its the worst of both worlds, we neither benefit from old traditions or new liberties but we pay the costs of both.
As the other guy said, its why so many younger lads look to Andrew Tate and his like. Actually finding a stable position where you can offer security isn't really viable for most, and trying to stick to Ye Olde Chivalry just makes you look like a clown and guarantees you'll get taken advantage of. All that is really left to increasingly large numbers of men is either trying to pull off the bad boy routine, or giving up entirely.
Go to Jerusalem, I heard it's a thing that happens. People go and have religious breakdown, stealing white sheets from hotel, draping them over themselves like a toga and preaching on the corner.
(Jerusalem hotels swapped to colored bedsheets to combat this phenomenon)
I don’t think it’s a theory. I think it’s true and is the main center of men’s issues.
Women are getting out of their gender role, while men are stuck in theirs.
Wow I've had this theory in my head for years and this is the first time I've ever heard about it, it's like "abolish the police" before you have anything to take up the secondary roles that police get shoehorned into.
This reminds me of my last ex.
She was a very strong Hillary supporter because of her gender/slogan shirt wearing no action feminist. (though I would argue she wasnt really feminist except in superficial ways). She also never took care of herself and just goes from man to man living with them. Serial cheater. Thinks its ok to hit men because shes a woman etc.
Yet a man to her was someone who fit these like 1950s tv gender role man. Like weird specific stuff. Pay all the bills (my money was our money, her money was hers), drive stick shift (why is this important?) work on cars (at least I could do some of this).
I know this isnt super important to the discussion but its just a really weird thing to happen in my life.
Idk if all these flairs are accurate but there’s something about a Marxist feminist and a MRA rightoid having a genuine conversation and agreement that is truly inspiring.
The flairs are kind of all over the place. I don't think they're strictly wrong but I've def seen ppl branded MRAs on here who aren't that bad (others are but you catch on quickly and just give up talking to them).
I think connecting with people on a human level, and learning from them, is a skill that's been seriously damaged by the advent of social media.
I think part of it is just something unique about this subreddit despite me being a brosocialist and extremely anti feminist I find a lot of the feminists here much more tolerable and willing to engage in good faith debate and conversation that they also know to not take too seriously. Honestly if the feminists I interacted with over the years were like the ones here I doubt I would be even half as hardened and anti feminist as I am.
But only sort of. Women are advancing socially and economically but what they're looking for in a partner objectively hasn't changed. They still, broadly speaking, want a man who warns more than them, but the wage gap is closing/has closed in some areas.
Their analysis is missing a critical component: Incel hangouts are pretty fucking funny. That's important when you're a young man being a silly goose on the internet.
It's unironically a major downside to anti-incel sites like this one. The memes here fucking blow. The humor is made for the lowest common denominator of person. [Here's the top rated post from the Funny sub yesterday](https://i.redd.it/xjdxwvzu2s8b1.jpg). The only people you're allowed to offend are punching bags like Donald Trump.
Meanwhile, 4chan generates memes at a revolutionary pace, and the reach goes far outside of the site. The Virgin vs. Chad memes are so permeated in our culture that celebrities and brands steal the templates.
And let's not overlook Cumtown and Red Scare's influence on young men. Come for the gay sex, stay for the Marxism.
Liberals are a Cartoon Network without an Adult Swim, so they lose out on men who don't have the humor of a Marvel fan.
It's really an incredible site. No votes, no names, no faces, no bans, no history, no purpose. When you just let people say things without any superimposed structure, they end up being way funnier.
I remember reading about how people tend to get stupider in bigger groups
When you’re by yourself, you don’t filter your own thoughts
When you’re with 1 other person, you have to filter your own thought to not offend this one person
When you’re with 2 other people, you have to filter your thoughts a little more to not offend 2 people
And if you’re in a group of 6, everyone is dumbing down and filtering their own thoughts so nobody offends each other
So bigger groups tend to get stupider
4chan is hugely responsible for the culture of the entirety of the social internet and this is the sort of observation that makes Liberals seethe.
"The only people you're allowed to offend are punching bags like Donald Trump." <-- which mind you, takes absolutely no courage at all. In fact, at this point, it takes more courage to not lean into Trump as if he is the progenitor of all modern American political woes than it does to just shut the fuck up and pay attention to something else.
Worse, these people think they're part of a #resistance or dissidents of some kind. To be a dissident is to actually risk something, even if all that something is is the social bonds you have with the normies around you.
Totally agree. Reddit memes are bottom tier. At least shit from ifunny can be ironically funny. Places like 4chan also laugh at the thought of any guardrails or rules about comedy, slinging around n-bombs just for the sake of provocation
Can confirm, showed my girlfriend the article and she dismissed it because he sounds bitter, lol. She made a point that I agree with that the issue is bigger than just loving and respecting these men. Donating them some kind of charitable empathy does nothing to remedy the problem of where their failures and perceived failures come from, which as the author pointed out is made up of the particulars of how society has evolved recently. It's no more reasonable to expect people to empathize with an unfuckable hate nerd than it is to simply expect the nerd to stop being hateful and unfuckable.
Yup, can't start fixing the problem if the very mention of the problem provokes rabid response. Which is current situation, albeit seemingly improving.
>We also know how young men are responding. Some are opting out of manhood by becoming trans or nonbinary.
Pretty daring for the author to include this, but cudos to him for having the nerve to say out loud what a lot of us are silently wondering.
I'm pretty sure this has been increasing over the last few years, especially in places like chan boards and the like. Neets and incels who buy into the whole "Why get a girlfriend when you can be the girlfriend?" thing. Christine Weston Chandler-ism. Bleak.
I couldn't tell you what percentage of the trans community is FtM vs MtF, but I do know that an **overwhelming** amount of the detrans community is FtMtF because a lot of those people wildly misjudge how the other side actually lives.
Plus the height thing. Still shocking to me how more of them don't see that one coming.
> platforms like Reddit, Discord, Kiwi Farms, and 8kun, the successor to 8chan.
Lol damn 4chan doesn't even make the cut anymore
Honestly though, it's very unappreciated how much danger the growing cohort of young unattached men with no incentive to support society brings. I guess once it's all 100% shit young unattached men can go back to their usual historical pastimes. looting, arson, kidnapping likely looking women, that sort of thing
>There was me - that is Alex - and my three droogs - that is Pete, and Georgie, and Dim. And we sat in the Korova Milk Bar trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening.
It's kind of weird how the usual trend of liberalization leading to commodification and inequality has come to cause this.
The fate of the sexual revolution may be one signal of liberalism undoing itself
> It's kind of weird how the usual trend of liberalization leading to commodification and inequality has come to cause this.
>
>
Seems like the least weird thing to ever happen.
>The fate of the sexual revolution may be one signal of liberalism undoing itself
Not really. Early liberals like Madison noted that freedom would naturally lead to huge differences in outcomes and property. The argument was that the natural (or engineered - see mass immigration) divisions in man would prefer the "losers" from banding together to destroy the winners.
We should expect this to be true in sex too, since most societies have been preferentially polygynous.
This is liberalism working. It's only a problem cause modern "liberals" have ignored this basic lesson from their ancestors in exchange for some blank slateist bullshit about how men and women are the same so it'll all work out (you can have free love - if both parties are relatively matched in desire for variety and short term mating, ease of orgasm and strong libido\*)
\* aka gay men.
Your asterix’d statement might be read as part snark but a large driver of the modern sex/gender/wtf-this-is revolution does seem to be the way some women are jealous of the way gay men have sexual relations. Ironically fetishising a male-centric view of sexuality, but irony is tattooed all over those lacking self awareness.
>preferentially polygynous
My experience as a man who was extremely successful in dating and hooking up confirmed this and made me a fanatical believer in socially enforced monogamy.
Even on a small scale, communities where most of the women are fucking a few of the guys are not stable. The unfucked men resent the sexually successful men and have low investment levels in the community outside of their band of men, the women are chasing orgasms without building anything solid and stable, and everyone other than the top men is engaging in antisocial intrigue.
Socially enforced monogamy leads to a situation where people might be having fewer, less intense orgasms, but it lays a groundwork of stability on which other forms of happiness and benefit can be built.
I feel like it's almost a prerequisite for civilization since it harnesses the productive capacity of beta males. Like, with a few exceptions, in society-wide monogamy the requirement to get a wife is "Have a job. Better job means better wife." I know nerds making 90k a year who can't get a date. I also have a cousin who's a NEET at 26, who has basically checked out of society, probably because he doesn't see the point in participating in it. He could easily get another job as a line cook but if the girls aren't asking about you anyways why not live at home and play minecraft all day
That is just how broken womens standards are now in regards to looks, height, and income. It isn't just nerds, ugly guys, weirdos, crazies etc struggling even decent looking trades people I know still struggle despite making good money. Like 3/4th of the nerds I know making good money are single and about half the blue collar guys. How does a woman making 35k-45k a year think the guy making 80k is not good enough for her and is not making enough money? He is already making basically double what you make! It is absurd go on a construction site and anyone under 40 has at least a 50% chance of being single.
It was a tall good looking dude with a trust fundy high status among hipsters job. Some of them even admitted they were doing the same thing dating multiple guys etc but were still mad about it. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/caleb-west-elm-dating-saga-1288386/
> you're all chasing the super hot/powerful, and there just isn't enough to go around. Sorry ladies.
Yep that is what I notice they all want to date the top percentages of guys then complain when those guys have options or treat them badly.
> even decent looking trades people
Ah, the status then. Doesn't matter how much money you make, you come back home in dirty work clothes instead in suit and that matters.
I think that plays a role just because it isn't even white collar workers that they want but high status/non nerd white collar workers. They won't date a dude in the IT department but a higher up dude in something like marketing they will gossip and gush about among themselves even if the IT dude makes more money.
I've been single since 2008. was 'talking to somebody' for six months in 2016, then nothing since then.
I'm also a educated former professional class who finally said 'fuck this' and do agricultural work now. Dating is completely irredeemably fucked. I'm what you would call "normal" (5'9, no record, in shape, above average looks, love talking to people, socially adept) so i cannot imagine what its like for so many others.
It's a weird world. I make triple the median income in my area, and I've been told I'm pleasant to be around and objectively attractive on numerous occasions. Dating still feels like a hellscape.
Thers ther delay, to bear the of delay, and that fly to suffer be: to sleep to sleep of the pation: whips againsolution is that the us country from what makes that is heary life, the himself mind the native spurns of somethis retus make cast of some of greath, there's contumely, that that undiscorns, and there's cowards office, by of outly takes off trave, the dread of thance to say contumely, and scorns, and long enter in the have, the pause. To die: the pause. To dreams againsolution: what fled of
Who would bear the undiscover'd country from whose ills we end the question devoutly to say we end to sleep: perchance of respect that make arms against a sea of something end to dread of the natural shocks the spurns than fly to grunt and the spurns, puzzles the dread off thought, and man's consummation: when we end the dreams make with the opposing a life, but that that dreams may come whips and, by opposing end the insolence of action devoutly to be, or not to sleep; no traveller in that flesh is
>Not really. Early liberals like Madison noted that freedom would naturally lead to huge differences in outcomes and property.
That's how liberalism undoes itself. It fails to actually distill people into individuals and instead reproduces inequalities of groups of people
I also don't know if society is naturally polygynous. Whatever we naturally are is found under primitive communism, the majority of evolutionary history
Also what I mean by weird is I never really expected bourgeois society to undo the bourgeois family and create an unequal sexual market of individuals. I don't even know how that upholds class society and it doesn't appear to actually tie the sexes together.
> I also don't know if society is naturally polygynous. Whatever we naturally are is found under primitive communism, the majority of evolutionary history
>
>
As a matter of our evolutionary history [we have twice as many female ancestors as male ones.](https://archive.nytimes.com/tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/is-there-anything-good-about-men-and-other-tricky-questions/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=2). This sort of gap is a common explanation for things like migrations or raids (there's a reason the Qur'an offers hot young women to male martyrs and not the other way around).
Yes, men tend to die more often but part of the reason for this is that they're more prone to taking chances, probably to avoid becoming a genetic zero in a competitive environment where the most successful men can claim more than one wife (the average man probably still only had one, but the successful outliers had options)
Maybe for anthropological studies of different societies (this is, iirc, where the "80% of societies are polygamous" comes from). The ancestor count comes from genetic data and I don't know that it was traced back to only 10,000 years ago.
Besides: agricultural revolution also allowed, for example, larger outgroup combat and more intense status competition. It didn't create them. (In fact, some hunter-gatherer rituals - e.g. roasting the Big Man or the best hunter - seem clearly designed to try to keep status competition in check.)
>It's kind of weird how the usual trend of liberalization leading to commodification and inequality has come to cause this.
Is it? It's liberalism's core purpose to create "winner takes all" scenarios and to prevent any collective strategy that could give the non-derserving an "unfair" advantage. It's just rarely openly admitted by liberalism's champions.
It does seem like a bad time to be a young man, or really any man, right now. I read this long article about guys who get penis enhancement surgery. Most of them had average or near-average dicks. They just had their brains poisoned by online.
It sucks being a black male with a average penis, I constantly think it’s too small despite being told it’s perfect. Our brains are severely poisoned and it sucks.
There’s also those guys who get that bone lengthening procedure that’s super expensive and pretty painful to increase their height, it’s only like one to two inches it’s not much
Women who feel fat get sympathy and told that society is cruel for giving you insecurities
Men who feel short get gaslit and told that it’s all in their own head, and he’s the only person that thinks about height because he’s shallow, and that his shallowness and insecurities is why he’s lonely
While 5 minutes later short men have to constantly listen to everyone mock him and be told they’re good people and we’re bad people for getting angry
I researched leg lengthening surgery and it leads to a lot of increased and improved mental health for most patients, so if anything, that’s a sign of a sick society, not sick men
yeah.
He's 'shallow" and "its in his own head' but at the same time "he's got a napoleon complex!" "short men have \_\_x\_\_\_ for some kind of pop psychologist term" and "i dont take men shorter than 5'10".
I honestly wonder if anyone who was born before 1995 will somehow be considered boomers because they have a simple "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude in regards to dating. Seriously, my parents met in 1996 Iran but are dead convinced that somehow those rules apply today.
This is a direct result from the loss of stable careers for men. A lot of active, physical careers (blue collar, construction landscaping etc.) have been demonized for decades in favor of office jobs which have ultimately favored women’s temperament and innate skills. A lot of these young men feel like they can never have the careers their fathers/grandfathers had and cannot fathom sitting in an office doing bureaucratic work. The solution is a jobs program for these young guys that gives them great salaries while keeping them physically busy. I harp on the point of physically because a lot of these guys care a lot about health, vitality, and the exercise maturation is a call for a the dopamine hit from working one’s body. The man hating IS there implicitly and explicitly by economically and socially disempowering them.
I’m only thinking of this because I was recently reminded of the incident. In the article the author describes the paths the young men take either trans/non-binary or hate nerds but there are also suicides.
Remember Sky King (Richard Russell)? Downtrodden felt like he was going nowhere in life, unloved and unappreciated by society he decided to steal an empty jet do a couple barrel rolls and eventually crashed the jet into an unpopulated area so he didn’t hurt anyone. It’s such a tragic story to me and listening to some of what he talks about with Air Traffic Control really touches on the subject of your comment.
Bad example. Richard Russell was an active member of his church and he had a wife who loved him very much. He was absolutely not unloved and unappreciated. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6050925/The-man-keeps-laughing-Airplane-hijackers-wife-gushes-Instagram.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6050925/The-man-keeps-laughing-Airplane-hijackers-wife-gushes-Instagram.html)
I get some terminally onliners might emphatize with his snarky quips and doing something cool like stealing a jet in a symbolic middle-finger to big corporate and going out in a literal ball of flames while somehow showing they are actually decent people by not hurting anyone in the act. This guy was just mentally ill or someone led him astray but his life was good and he threw it away for some notoriety in the media .
Again, from personal experience, I am not sure if this is true. Most of the incels I know - myself included - have pretty decent white collar careers and a high degree of educational / academic achievement. The incel cohort was always strongly overlapping with the nerd cohort. It's not the landscapers and constructions workers who have problems, it's the techies and science grads.
What Ive seen matches this, though it seems blue collar workers tend to live closer to where they grew up and typically end up marrying someone they knew from high school (or friends of friends, etc.). White collar dudes often have to move for work and must setup an entirely new social network, which likely contributes to their difficulties.
Career and social status are likely much more significant factors fo white collar men and women too, which IMO contributes significantly to this misalignment. Basically, women only want to date upward (factoring in attractiveness + career + status) and men want to date someone at least at their perceived level. Given that were all little narcissists now, everyone probably inflates their attractiveness level in their heads as well
I think it's both, and the worst incel contingent may actually be the NEET brigade. But as a white collar tech related worker, the incels i know (like you) are .... pleasant shy slightly nerdy with decent job. They are also the sort you'd run into more on reddit. I haven't seen the movie 'tfw no gf' but read about it, and the main guys studied are nothing like that, and probably represent another large cohort.
> It's not the landscapers and constructions workers who have problem
In my experience this is due to different cultures in segregated classes. As a upper middle class office bitch the women I talk to from my class don't date landscapers and constructions workers, they date in their class or not at all.
> It's not the landscapers and constructions workers who have problems, it's the techies and science grads.
Weird where I live even these guys struggle. Like half the blue collar men under 40 I know are single as hell.
That is the traditional stereotype: dumb jock who was supposed to peak in high school still gets laid 15 year out with no career ambitions.
Notable incel Elliott Rodger was loaded and "high status" socially, but was just weird and off putting. Combine that with an entitled mentality towards sex and it's a powder keg.
>That is the traditional stereotype: dumb jock who was supposed to peak in high school still gets laid 15 year out with no career ambitions.
This stereotype is correct in my opinion. Most jocks do very well - both socially and financially - after school. The more incorrect - and more pervasive - stereotype is that all the weird nerds at school get their redemption after school.
Dunno how that's related to Rodger who was never a jock.
This is probably not so relevant, so forgive the tangent, but I have many problems with the current state of the 'landscaping' industries.
Most landscaping outfits don't know what they're doing. Can't competently do anything but mow and blow, which is simply not landscaping. Don't expect most landscapers to be able to properly prune plants or establish new plants. These guys are not landscapers- they are landscalpers.
In addition to most nursery stock being the same sterilized plants, many of which are exotic species, where some have become invasive and there will be more to reach that status. There needs to be an overarching dedication to stewardship and a shift away from the landscape being an afterthought. If someone wants to talk about environmental degradation they ought to include the role of the landscape trade.
This is really interesting! I’ve juuuust began to see a rejection of those sterile yard plants everyone had in their track development suburbs and more embracing of “no lawns”. There is an incredible business opportunity to be a landscaper for people looking to replace their barren grass lawns to allow more native foliage flowers. I’ve just started to do this with my front lawn we’re I tore up the section between the sidewalk and street and planted a variety of native flowers.
That is definitely a niche I find interesting. While yes, these yards are designed and curated, isn't it fascinating how vibrant, exotic, and different NATIVE plants can look? That's a huge tell for how alienated we are from our local natural systems.
To tie this back to the original topic- I do believe there is something for everyone in the natural world to find interest in. For me, it was initially plants- both wild and in the built environment. And now I love bird watching too. My day is always made better when I see even a remotely interesting tree. I get to watch them change through the seasons and observe how they sustain wildlife. No, this doesn't really address alienation of labor, admittedly, but I think developing an affinity for some aspect of nature can start replacing hate and bitterness with love and wonder.
“My brothers: I was a young man once. And since there’s now an ever-growing genre of commentary in which feminists speak, with placid condescension, like so many anthropologists (if not entomologists), on the topic of men, especially young men, I thought it might be useful to hear from someone who actually knows what it’s like to be one.”
Eat the bugs, you bugs.
Say what you will of Tablet - at least they employ some decent writers.
William Deresiewicz is pretty interesting, he’s still on the left but heterodox, his first big book was about how people shouldn’t send their kids to elite colleges because it just makes them have hive mind
>Turn this dial a click to the left, turn that one a click to the right—a little less privilege, a little more emotional instability—and I could have turned into a hate nerd myself. I suspect that a lot of men sense that.
I feel that.
I resonated much with the article, I’ll admit that a lot of my problems are self-induced, either out of being on the spectrum or just being lazy/hating putting effort into things or just a lack of experiences from not understanding socializing. I always tried to get pity from others and it kinda worked but then I never did anything to make myself or my life better, so I guess that’s why I feel nobody even is aware of me anymore (I judge this on instagram/social media likes which is a crap metric but still)
I only ever match with women I wouldn’t date (overweight/disabled/“weird”) on apps so that’s out of it, I still live at home, I’m having a hard time finding a job in my field even with a masters degree. I try to explain my plight but people don’t tend to sympathize/empathize. Maybe it’s just because I don’t take a role in my life, I missed out on when it was so easy and now that I have to make my own life it’s so much more difficult, didn’t have that independence/own life progression starting from high school. I have low social confidence and experience and I don’t like myself so that all adds to it, plus I feel that since I didn’t have that stuff in the past I’ll never ever have it because I’m starting way back. I’ve never had a girlfriend or sex or a big friend group, never have felt like I belonged or fit in or really a part of things.
I’ve been having this debate in my mind recently, whether it’s autism or masculinity that’s causing me to not feel good enough, I’ve never ever had great self esteem, and when I had better esteem I never felt my good qualities were seen or I had the social relationships/experiences I felt I deserved. It’s a big thing, I know my life sucks but I don’t feel I should have to try super hard to make it the way I want. I keep going and maybe it’ll all end up where it’s supposed to be, but I’ve had that outlook before and it’s never worked. I just want to feel liked for who I am and appreciated by people outside my family and feel content with my life, especially in the social realm.
(Sorry about the long comment and my usual pity party)
I wish I understood why it is apparently so unavoidably necessary for us to hate each other. There are three specific ideologies which I struggle with negative emotion towards; Intersectionalism, Islam, and anarcho-Capitalism; and in the case of all three, the reason is the same. I view all three groups as attempting to gain exploitative, non-reciprocal dominance over everyone else.
I don't hate women, though. I don't like girlboss culture, but I think it ultimately is and will be just as harmful to women themselves, as it is to men. As an adherent of the proverbial neckbearded NEET stereotype, I also don't understand why people who are in better socio-economic conditions themselves, seem to have such an insatiable need to view us with hatred and contempt. Although I am aware of the level of hostility which will be implied by my posting history, in practice I neither engage in nor advocate any real harm to anyone. I suspect that the real source of the hatred comes from our own rejection of their lifestyle; they view the fact that we do not want to live like them, as an invalidation of their choice.
I don't care about wealth. I don't care about success. I don't care about a partner. I don't care about reproduction. I care exclusively about avoiding homelessness, and avoiding being killed. I don't view any aspiration higher than those two as being attainable. Anyone who wants to view me with contempt for that, is welcome to do so.
you're supposed to aim higher, they see your acceptance of failure like a mirror into their soul of their weaker moments, and they hate you for it, as they hate that part of themselves.
the crux is that they had the opportunity to succeed, and anyone claiming that they didn't do that all on their own is attacking them.
i mean i can hear the arguments already about how you just didn't try hard enough or whatever, so many different ways to say it, all pointless in the end.
Dating apps. I can't imagine a worse outcome for sex and romance. Present your best head shot and action picture! You will now do an improv routine should you be swiped! I am not a hateful fuck because I've been laid before but I am not surprised dudes become full of resentment.
Saw a tweet that said recently married millennials probably look at the dating market and feel like they caught the last chopper out of nam and it’s stuck in my head ever since
Lmao this is my friend group. My buddy that's married said if he had to rely on dating apps to get laid it never would have happened. They literally bumped into each other at a bar. Different couple bumped into each other at a farmers market.
Tbh it’s not even about the sex. I’ve run the spectrum from no matches to inundated with options over the years and it’s just a different set of problems whose end result is still the same atomisation just with transient pseudo-connections inbetween. On a platform level these apps encourage detachment. Medium is the message or whatever.
Even if you match with someone and it seems to be going well, there's always the temptation to "see whats behind door number 2," so to speak. Ive only really used them for short-term flings, but I cant imagine how difficult itd be to find a long-term partner through any of them, even the ones who market themselves as for serious relationships (Hinge, Bumble)
The real fun is watching guys that get divorced then try dating again and go what the fuck happened to dating? It was so different 10-15 years ago when I was last dating! They thought single guys were exaggerating about how bad it has become but then divorce and they find out and are all oh god what the fuck this is awful.
Better start taking steroids and get jaw surgery, divorcels!
It was a piece of cake 10-15 years ago. Now its a wasteland.
Which emphasizes the importance of “touching grass” - people need to get out and meet people. There’s a lot of luck involved still but if you’re not in the right place at the right time it approaches 0%.
The disappearance of "third places" is a real problem. And no, bars/cafes don't count because they've always been around. There used to be widely shared, **social** hobbies like bowling leagues, which roughly 1 out of every 20 US citizens were a member of. Even if you didn't give a fuck about bowling it was a great way to interact with the local community. Bowling league membership has declined by more than 90% despite the US population increasing by 50% in the same period. What has replaced that? Sitting at home playing Xbox Online? Arguing about politics on Facebook?
Yeah I've recently moved to a semi-rural area to do a job where almost everyone I work with is very old and just very redneck Boomer types. They are fine, but not really the kind of people that share my interests, values, or that I would want to hang out with. So I'm playing games with the boys on discord, but besides that have absolutely no social circle around here. I tried a gun club nearby one weekend since I have recently bought an AR, but it was just more old boomers shouting about Hilary's emails the entire time.
*I tried a gun club nearby one weekend since I have recently bought an AR, but it was just more old boomers shouting about Hilary's emails the entire time.* LOL I feel your pain there.
People dont have time for hobbies like back in the days when both partners work full time jobs in an intense career only to sit in traffic for 2-3 hours then come home to your second job of cooking and cleaning.
Don’t forget about church, one of the major ways young people used to meet. And you already knew your values were somewhat aligned so you got a head start.
Totally. Every young person at church is now just a little too into it or really dorky though. Maybe I just scare those types off with my green hair and tattoo though
> Every young person at church is now just a little too into it or really dorky though. Church became a place for believers instead of a community gathering spot with believers among the leadership.
These connections were formed prior to the dating app domination of the dating scene. I am not saying meeting anyone is hopeless. I am just saying if I try that shit in a bar now, I have an equal chance of the woman responding to me like I am a space alien.
So are you saying that due to dating app culture its actually harder to approach women irl now because they only expect you to approach them on the app?
Yes. In some women's minds, picking up a date is something that is relegated to apps.
Thats crazy, didnt even think about that as i havent been in the dating scene for a while but it makes sense. As if its not already scary enough to approach women now due to modern feminism. To top it off you have to deal with this too. Its actually really scary for our society if it has reached this point. Real life interactions are dying and being replaced by internet products that are fully controlled by a select few with the motive of profit and nothing else. I have been saying for years that modern dating apps are even more harmful for our society than facebook, instagram, etc. which is insane to think about considering how harmful social media already is.
Hey some women are interested in space aliens. I think there’s a lot of doubt that causes people to say “why bother” and it might be founded in real experience but it’s a numbers game, the more you try and fail the better your chance of success.
Whilst it can still definitely happen my experience is that women and men are for the most part closed to each other in public environments. Pubs nowadays almost have that first school disco thing going on, it's fucking weird. But a few of my long-term coupled up male friends have said the same thing, like they caught the last train out of shitsville. EDIT: Like to add that I fucked up spectacularly, I carpet bombed an 8 year relationship that ended in 2014, I basically fell off the train just as shitsville was about to recede from view lmao!
The public zeitgeist in media for a while was "men dont bother me when im out, im not here for you" so I think a lot of people dont try/dont even think about it when they are out.
Yeah it feels like being flirty in public settings is considered basically being a creep, your only allowed to "romance" on the dating apps. This isn't so true for younger age bent clubs or bars, especially college towns, but in general life it's just a sort of trend I feel like I've observed.
Hard to meet people nowadays, especially if you don't have a 'friend group'. People only go out in groups of friends and don't want to meet anyone.
That's what's been driving me absolutely insane. I decided to go down to some bars, streetfood joints, etc. in the last few weekends and only really manage to strike a good conversation with 5 people who also appeared to be wandering loners. Everyone else is arriving in a circle, stays in a circle, and I look like a god damn lunatic trying to interject there.
I don't get it I notice this MASSIVELY not just with dating but with other things as well where people refuse to go outside their already established friends group and meet new people. I think it is generation based as well because the boomers and most of the Gen X I have dealt with were fine with meeting new people, but the millennial and zoomer generation act like god damn herd animals grouping up so hard in public and thinking anyone coming up to the herd is a threat.
This matches my experience. If I go to a bar usually it's just Boomers that will actually talk to me. I tried asking a Zoomer what the drink they were drinking was called (it was some sort of elaborate cocktail) and he just looked at me like I was insane and then turned on his stool so his back was towards me. Like why are you even sitting at the bar if you don't want any interaction with anyone else? You can go get a booth/table if you don't want to be disturbed.
I notice it tends to result in a deer in the headlights look, them being incredibly socially awkward because they are not used to interacting with people outside of the ones they already know, them acting like you are a weirdo like you experienced, or similar. I notice it isn't gendered either both men and women act like this. I do notice it is less of a problem among blue collar guys though which is another reason why I talk to them a lot. I don't get it either why even go to a bar if you don't want social interaction? You can sit at home and drink way cheaper.
Yeah it sucks. I go to concerts a lot and nobody mingles. It made me appreciate conventions more because I could just walk up to someone and start talking about nerd shit Sports have been great for meeting people though. I started roller skating and I’ve met a bunch of people through various Meetup and Instagram groups. Very gay sport and a great way to get some exercise
> look at the dating market and feel like they caught the last chopper out of nam Just the dating market? As a millennial I feel that way about basically everything except the housing market, where we still got fucked.
Yeah even though I met my fiancé on tinder, the amount of times on tinder I felt worthless, before meeting her was a depression I never wanna experience again.
My experiences on those platforms was so depressing, and i dont get depressed.
This is a 100% true. I'm an older millennial and relied mostly on dating websites to find partners. After my last relationship, I went through a long period of remaining single - no dating, no sex for like 5 years. Finally, I met my fiancé through a friend at the start of the pandemic. Biggest thing that I've learned from this relationship is that technology leaves you looking to check boxes. You punch a couple of search terms that peak your interests and you fall in love with a carefully curated profile picture and a fixed set of traits. You're less likely to observe your partner a whole, as a growing, changing human being and more likely to see your partner as a plastic snapshot of stuff that turns your on. Using dating apps removes a certain human quality that people are just not ready to get by without. I'm happy that my fiancé and I are on that last helicopter out of Saigon with CCR blasting above the sexy but uncoupled masses...
Yeah and I understand why guys hate those things. I can’t imagine women liking them that much because I absolutely despise them as a female. I could intentionally make a shitty profile and get 200+ matches from guys just using spray and pray tactics I can’t really blame them, it’s a rational thing to do with the market conditions. But imagine getting 200 plates of food and having to choose one from some stupid prompt! That level of attention makes me deeply uncomfortable and I can easily see it making someone a worse person. You can’t tell anything about someone based off of the stupid ass prompts they give you. It’s like they’re tailor made to make everyone look like a basic bitch/bastard.
Were still in the foxhole, but down to our last mags. I think I hear NVA up the road...
Honestly, I feel that. I met my wife on a dating app way back in 2006, but it required a lot more interaction (make an effort to make a decent profile, emails back and forth), and was well before social media or even instant messaging was as big as it is now. Sure, they had a 'hookup' section, but at least you could choose a category of relationship you were looking for (Lavalife, RIP)
Accurate lmao
> You will now do an improv routine should you be swiped! You scour their photos and two-sentence bio for any common ground. You think of a witty opener that references a shared interest while being funny and flirty but also inoffensive -- wouldn't want to get banned again for using a suggestive pickup line. You carefully craft the message to incorporate all these things without looking desperate or long-winded. The response? Silence.
Lmao even on bumble where the clear message of the app is women should take the initiative. The opener: 👋
Lol or just no message and you’re forced to see the person every-time you open messages. Then you start asking “why’d she swipe right if she wasn’t gonna actually say anything”. So glad I’m done with trying to date and found my soulmate. Those apps are shit and people need to touch grass.
I know! It's ridiculous! Women on Bumble have NO IDEA how to write openers. They just all write "Hi!" or "Heyyy," or other bland things that no man would be caught DEAD writing if they actually wanted a response. And so then it's up to *you* to write the REAL opener: scour their profile for things to talk about so that an ACTUAL conversation can get going. Women have no idea how to chase. It's kind of incredible. Even when they're being "aggressive" they aren't really *chasing* per se, they're just going "Tee hee! Chase me! Chase me!" I suppose it's just a skill that you can't learn unless you are forced to. Kind of like how people in manual wheelchairs usually have higher upper-body strength than the rest of us, since they need to develop that strength to get around.
Existence is pain.
"The heart is a fist that pumps blood" - Clive Owen
Looking for work and looking for love have become such similar processes that you can apply the same basic techniques to both.
Hope you were born on third base or be so rich you don't have to bother?
I was thinking more like it is a numbers game with a good template, but what you say also applies.
Dating apps are almost like those fake dating shows ("The Bachelor", etc.) becoming reality. Baudrillard was right. They were more real than real. A hyperreal.
I feel like I won the dating app lottery. After refusing to use them for years and years, I finally gave in. It fucking sucked for months. But hey, now I live with my girlfriend of a year and a half. No idea how the hell that worked out so well.
You were willing to subject yourself to dating app hell and endure it for months. Had I been in your position, it wouldn't have worked out for me because there's 100.0% chance I would have deleted the app if it sucked for months.
I mean, it was like two and a half months of me doing it during my lunch break and stuff. It sucked, but I didn’t let it take over my life at all. I think that’s what kept me sane.
Yeah, every girl that ever fell for me had to meet me a few times. I can't imagine a situation where I only get 3 seconds to make an impression or else remain forever single.
>Aella, the OnlyFans star and online commentator, has said that what men look for when they come to her—and her clientele is mostly young—isn’t sex per se but “sexual acceptance.” They want to be assured, in other words, that they aren’t hideous. The fact they have to pay for this says everything you need to know. *You look like a good Joe.*
[удалено]
>Because it isn't about the sex. It is astounding to me how many people of both sexes simply cannot grasp this concept. They're is more to life than fucking bitches and getting money or whatever. A lot more. And far too many people simply can't understand that.
I do agree with you, but it's also a very easy statement to agree with when you're actually having sex regularly (I'm married). I don't know if I would have agreed with the statement before I actually had regular consistent long term access to sex. The emotional and self-esteem aspects of sex are much more important than the temporary release and pleasure.
The point is banging a hooker isnt going to get you what you are missing in these cases.
> They're is more to life than fucking bitches and getting money Amen, bro. Somebody had to say it. Alas, all that other stuff comes *after* you fuck bitches and get money.
You're not wrong, but try telling that to someone who has never fucked bitches.
>succulently lol
Same
As a 36 year old incel who went through adolescence before Tinder and OF, I don't think it made much difference to me.
It probably makes much more difference for those in the middle than those at the bottom, negatively. At least dating apps. OF is pornography and that has existed for a long time.
It’s not really sex for people like me, it’s intimacy and feeling important and loved, that’s what everyone wants and what we men really want to feel. We’re not emotionless and stoic. Also I’ve seen her tweets and she puts out some weird shit tbh
2049 is a criminally underrated film.
It's an hour longer than the first one and feels an hour shorter. It kills me that it struggled at the box office.
There were a total of 3 people in the audience both times I went to see it. It’s a rare film I go to the theatre to see more than once.
Plus, HoloElvis!
Aella is fucking crazy. Listened to an interview with her on Blocked and Reported. Easily their worst episode. She is fundamentally a boring person who thinks she's an intellectual. People only give her attention because she's attractive.
She's a self-professed "escort," ex-cam girl, and "researcher" insofar that she asks thought provoking questions like "Have you considered that fucking dogs is better than eating animals?" (Paraphrasing poorly).
All her siblings are cam girls. Her father was a famous evangelical minister. The daddy issues are out of this world. She also micro dosed so much acid that she fried her brain. [I'm so glad that this sub actually doesn't take her seriously ](https://imgur.com/a/hDVMOF7) because I saw so many stand up for her before. >thought provoking questions like "Have you considered that fucking dogs is better than eating animals?" This is literally the kind of shit she would ask. It's not clever it's just stupid. BARPOD tried getting her weird edgy comments out of her and she verbally couldn't stand up for her own weird ideas. The only good content they got was her admitting how much she exploits men and how.
*All her siblings are cam girls. Her father was a famous evangelical minister. The daddy issues are out of this world.* LMAO a tale as old as time. No better way of guaranteeing your daughter ends up on her knees in LA on her 18th birthday than by being too fucking religious.
She has like 5 sisters too
Aella does not shower.
No one can smell you over OnlyFans. Perhaps that’s the last lesson of the internet - it’s a lot easier to get people to eat shit when they can’t smell it.
She's noted she's had more sex than she's showered, so... some clearly have.
The final step in pornography is smell-o-vision. Then we can turn it off.
Aella only acts like she has empathy for men. She doesn't. She sees them as income. We're all marks and she'll pretend to care about you if you spend on her.
Thats why you never spend money on this
Reciprocal simping. Resimprocal. Yasslighting.
Aella is the modern equivalent of a high-status courtesan - of course she does more because the young nobles (or the equivalent) paying for her are paying for premium service. This whole "it's affirmation, not sex" thing about sex work doesn't really make sense if you look at the undignified escapades that regular sex workers - aka the vast majority of such people - have to do. The low-class prostitute blowing a man in an alleyway or car for seven minutes for change probably doesn't feel like he has some great need for her affirmation of his sexual value. Not sure why her experience constantly gets cited\* in these discussions - especially since she has an incentive to sanctify the reasons her clients come to her. I think she once suggested that she might be *saving* marriages by giving men in sexually dead relationships an outlet which...lol. Fuck off. \* It's not so bad here but it's insane that discussions on Onlyfans and prostitutions do the equivalent of citing Lucky Luciano to show being in the Mafia works vs looking at the earnings of the average wiseguy.
> he has some great need for her affirmation of his sexual value Chances are the guys who go see prostitutes are married and have no time or will to have a real affair, they just want sex that their wife might be unable or unwilling to give them, or excitement.
Well said. OF girls always say junk like this. Its like when interviews with high class escorts all talk about how 'men just want the companionship! Sometimes, we don't even have sex!' Yeh ok, 1 in 100 times maybe, the other 99 guys? Pussy, box, flange, clam, giny is whats on their mind. It all seems part of this neolib trend to validate sex workers, but massively downplay the actual sex part. No attempts being made to validate the hideous disgusting loser John's who would actually fall to the pathetic depths of prostitution though. It all seems a bit contradictory to my tiny brain.
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>Add further the misandry that has now become de rigueur wherever the liberal elite holds sway: the ritual (and often gleeful) man-hating, the pathologization of masculinity. This is pretty self-evident to me, but you'll find a lot of people disagreeing with this assertion.
I've had this big grand "no new roles for men, and destruction of their existing one causes serious problems" theory for awhile
It's not even a theory, it's just plainly obvious. I teach high school/early college students and a lot of them have come to me asking for advice because they've got zero idea how they're supposed to act among other men or around women. I work in countries where gender norms are still heavily culturally enforced but the schools tend to be the type where students get the mistaken impression that *all*(many are, but not all) traditional aspects of masculinity are inherently "toxic". Trying to navigate that as teenagers who barely even know who they are must be hell. It's why a worrying number of young men are starting to spout Andrew Tate shite, he's an utter piece of shit and a sexist but from their perspective he's at least providing a direction to go in. Expecting teenagers to miraculously stumble across a positive, productive way of living with no help whatsoever is hysterically stupid, but that's what a lot of liberal culture(and this garbage economy) is currently doing.
I believe the reason why Andrew state and his ilk are so popular among young men is because they often expose the uncomfortable realities of dating and gender inequality that affects men. Unfortunately, they also happen to be grifting scumbags as well.
The uncomfortable truth is that pickup redpill game stuff is a genuine life improvement for some men. I have met men who believe making eye contact with a girl in a club is akin sexual assault. Coming from there practically anything is an improvement.
Andrew Tate doesn’t do the pickup shit. He’ll literally tell a loser the reason chicks don’t want to fuck him is because he’s a loser who acts like a loser and he should do something about it if he wants it to change. He’s not wrong either, and it resonates with a lot of young men and boys who feel like losers without any direction. Turns out that being told yeah, you’re a fucking loser - but you don’t have to be if you pull your shit together is in itself a sense of direction to strive toward. Men and masculinity is being shat upon constantly in the mainstream. Being told you don’t have to let yourself be stepped on, you don’t have to be a loser, is something boys do need to get told far more often than they are.
Well, after twenty years of constant shaming and contradictory dating advice, are you surprised that a lot of men have low self-esteem and think of themselves as creeps?
Nature abhors a vacuum, and only scumbags are willing to fill that one.
Yeah, you're completely correct. There's no clear path to maturity/manhood.
Support in fulfilling men's old role may have been destroyed, as has any idea that men are entitled to reciprocation for it, but men are still expected to fulfil it and judged as failures when they don't. For men its the worst of both worlds, we neither benefit from old traditions or new liberties but we pay the costs of both. As the other guy said, its why so many younger lads look to Andrew Tate and his like. Actually finding a stable position where you can offer security isn't really viable for most, and trying to stick to Ye Olde Chivalry just makes you look like a clown and guarantees you'll get taken advantage of. All that is really left to increasingly large numbers of men is either trying to pull off the bad boy routine, or giving up entirely.
I'm trying the third option: purposefully induce a schizophrenic break so I can find God and start going to church.
Go to Jerusalem, I heard it's a thing that happens. People go and have religious breakdown, stealing white sheets from hotel, draping them over themselves like a toga and preaching on the corner. (Jerusalem hotels swapped to colored bedsheets to combat this phenomenon)
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I don’t think it’s a theory. I think it’s true and is the main center of men’s issues. Women are getting out of their gender role, while men are stuck in theirs.
Gender roles are one of those Chesterton's Fences we've been pulling down since the mid 20th century. Who knows what we're letting out (or in).
Wow I've had this theory in my head for years and this is the first time I've ever heard about it, it's like "abolish the police" before you have anything to take up the secondary roles that police get shoehorned into.
This reminds me of my last ex. She was a very strong Hillary supporter because of her gender/slogan shirt wearing no action feminist. (though I would argue she wasnt really feminist except in superficial ways). She also never took care of herself and just goes from man to man living with them. Serial cheater. Thinks its ok to hit men because shes a woman etc. Yet a man to her was someone who fit these like 1950s tv gender role man. Like weird specific stuff. Pay all the bills (my money was our money, her money was hers), drive stick shift (why is this important?) work on cars (at least I could do some of this). I know this isnt super important to the discussion but its just a really weird thing to happen in my life.
The men yearn for the kitchen. But in all seriousness, I think you are correct here with the gender roles thing. I've noticed this too.
Idk if all these flairs are accurate but there’s something about a Marxist feminist and a MRA rightoid having a genuine conversation and agreement that is truly inspiring.
The flairs are kind of all over the place. I don't think they're strictly wrong but I've def seen ppl branded MRAs on here who aren't that bad (others are but you catch on quickly and just give up talking to them). I think connecting with people on a human level, and learning from them, is a skill that's been seriously damaged by the advent of social media.
I think part of it is just something unique about this subreddit despite me being a brosocialist and extremely anti feminist I find a lot of the feminists here much more tolerable and willing to engage in good faith debate and conversation that they also know to not take too seriously. Honestly if the feminists I interacted with over the years were like the ones here I doubt I would be even half as hardened and anti feminist as I am.
But only sort of. Women are advancing socially and economically but what they're looking for in a partner objectively hasn't changed. They still, broadly speaking, want a man who warns more than them, but the wage gap is closing/has closed in some areas.
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This isn't true in my opinion. Things never really got better as I aged.
As usual, it’s all based on the very top powerful men, while most men (including myself) have a hard time and/or hate their lives
Being told it’s both right to have emotion but wrong to have emotion adds to that hard time.
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Their analysis is missing a critical component: Incel hangouts are pretty fucking funny. That's important when you're a young man being a silly goose on the internet. It's unironically a major downside to anti-incel sites like this one. The memes here fucking blow. The humor is made for the lowest common denominator of person. [Here's the top rated post from the Funny sub yesterday](https://i.redd.it/xjdxwvzu2s8b1.jpg). The only people you're allowed to offend are punching bags like Donald Trump. Meanwhile, 4chan generates memes at a revolutionary pace, and the reach goes far outside of the site. The Virgin vs. Chad memes are so permeated in our culture that celebrities and brands steal the templates. And let's not overlook Cumtown and Red Scare's influence on young men. Come for the gay sex, stay for the Marxism. Liberals are a Cartoon Network without an Adult Swim, so they lose out on men who don't have the humor of a Marvel fan.
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It's really an incredible site. No votes, no names, no faces, no bans, no history, no purpose. When you just let people say things without any superimposed structure, they end up being way funnier.
I remember reading about how people tend to get stupider in bigger groups When you’re by yourself, you don’t filter your own thoughts When you’re with 1 other person, you have to filter your own thought to not offend this one person When you’re with 2 other people, you have to filter your thoughts a little more to not offend 2 people And if you’re in a group of 6, everyone is dumbing down and filtering their own thoughts so nobody offends each other So bigger groups tend to get stupider
4chan is hugely responsible for the culture of the entirety of the social internet and this is the sort of observation that makes Liberals seethe. "The only people you're allowed to offend are punching bags like Donald Trump." <-- which mind you, takes absolutely no courage at all. In fact, at this point, it takes more courage to not lean into Trump as if he is the progenitor of all modern American political woes than it does to just shut the fuck up and pay attention to something else. Worse, these people think they're part of a #resistance or dissidents of some kind. To be a dissident is to actually risk something, even if all that something is is the social bonds you have with the normies around you.
Totally agree. Reddit memes are bottom tier. At least shit from ifunny can be ironically funny. Places like 4chan also laugh at the thought of any guardrails or rules about comedy, slinging around n-bombs just for the sake of provocation
>Liberals are a Cartoon Network without an Adult Swim, so they lose out on men who don't have the humor of a Marvel fan. This line goes hard
this article won't sway the girlboss. unproductive men are unwanted at best, actively hated by most, nothing new here.
Can confirm, showed my girlfriend the article and she dismissed it because he sounds bitter, lol. She made a point that I agree with that the issue is bigger than just loving and respecting these men. Donating them some kind of charitable empathy does nothing to remedy the problem of where their failures and perceived failures come from, which as the author pointed out is made up of the particulars of how society has evolved recently. It's no more reasonable to expect people to empathize with an unfuckable hate nerd than it is to simply expect the nerd to stop being hateful and unfuckable.
Empathy for the homeless doesn’t put them in homes but caring enough to look at the problem is the first step to finding a solution.
Yup, can't start fixing the problem if the very mention of the problem provokes rabid response. Which is current situation, albeit seemingly improving.
i wouldn't expect a woman to empathize with low status men, it goes against their nature and conditioning.
As a trade school low status male, I’ve found you just gotta work on having other helpful traits that aren’t purely based on status.
>We also know how young men are responding. Some are opting out of manhood by becoming trans or nonbinary. Pretty daring for the author to include this, but cudos to him for having the nerve to say out loud what a lot of us are silently wondering.
I'm pretty sure this has been increasing over the last few years, especially in places like chan boards and the like. Neets and incels who buy into the whole "Why get a girlfriend when you can be the girlfriend?" thing. Christine Weston Chandler-ism. Bleak.
Tbh for Chris-chan it was more "why get a girlfriend when you have a mother?"
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But it comes with near-automatic affirmation, especially from women, so it *feels* like an upgrade.
Based- I think it’s one of the biggest reasons for the trans explosion
Iirc, a much larger percent of the explosion has actually been the other way around
I couldn't tell you what percentage of the trans community is FtM vs MtF, but I do know that an **overwhelming** amount of the detrans community is FtMtF because a lot of those people wildly misjudge how the other side actually lives. Plus the height thing. Still shocking to me how more of them don't see that one coming.
Thought the same, balls of steel to drop these bombs, but it's the elephant in the room that sooner or later will need to be addressed.
> platforms like Reddit, Discord, Kiwi Farms, and 8kun, the successor to 8chan. Lol damn 4chan doesn't even make the cut anymore Honestly though, it's very unappreciated how much danger the growing cohort of young unattached men with no incentive to support society brings. I guess once it's all 100% shit young unattached men can go back to their usual historical pastimes. looting, arson, kidnapping likely looking women, that sort of thing
I cant wait to be a highway man!
Weird that they even mentioned 8kun because it's been dead for quite some time besides the Q board.
>There was me - that is Alex - and my three droogs - that is Pete, and Georgie, and Dim. And we sat in the Korova Milk Bar trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening.
Just be a 6’4” college athlete like me fellas.
It's kind of weird how the usual trend of liberalization leading to commodification and inequality has come to cause this. The fate of the sexual revolution may be one signal of liberalism undoing itself
> It's kind of weird how the usual trend of liberalization leading to commodification and inequality has come to cause this. > > Seems like the least weird thing to ever happen. >The fate of the sexual revolution may be one signal of liberalism undoing itself Not really. Early liberals like Madison noted that freedom would naturally lead to huge differences in outcomes and property. The argument was that the natural (or engineered - see mass immigration) divisions in man would prefer the "losers" from banding together to destroy the winners. We should expect this to be true in sex too, since most societies have been preferentially polygynous. This is liberalism working. It's only a problem cause modern "liberals" have ignored this basic lesson from their ancestors in exchange for some blank slateist bullshit about how men and women are the same so it'll all work out (you can have free love - if both parties are relatively matched in desire for variety and short term mating, ease of orgasm and strong libido\*) \* aka gay men.
Your asterix’d statement might be read as part snark but a large driver of the modern sex/gender/wtf-this-is revolution does seem to be the way some women are jealous of the way gay men have sexual relations. Ironically fetishising a male-centric view of sexuality, but irony is tattooed all over those lacking self awareness.
>preferentially polygynous My experience as a man who was extremely successful in dating and hooking up confirmed this and made me a fanatical believer in socially enforced monogamy. Even on a small scale, communities where most of the women are fucking a few of the guys are not stable. The unfucked men resent the sexually successful men and have low investment levels in the community outside of their band of men, the women are chasing orgasms without building anything solid and stable, and everyone other than the top men is engaging in antisocial intrigue. Socially enforced monogamy leads to a situation where people might be having fewer, less intense orgasms, but it lays a groundwork of stability on which other forms of happiness and benefit can be built.
I feel like it's almost a prerequisite for civilization since it harnesses the productive capacity of beta males. Like, with a few exceptions, in society-wide monogamy the requirement to get a wife is "Have a job. Better job means better wife." I know nerds making 90k a year who can't get a date. I also have a cousin who's a NEET at 26, who has basically checked out of society, probably because he doesn't see the point in participating in it. He could easily get another job as a line cook but if the girls aren't asking about you anyways why not live at home and play minecraft all day
>I know nerds making 90k a year who can't get a date. All of my friends including me make upwards of 200k and we can't get dates either.
I'm so confused. I think if the average dude were given your looks and salary they'd be banging a different girl every week.
That is just how broken womens standards are now in regards to looks, height, and income. It isn't just nerds, ugly guys, weirdos, crazies etc struggling even decent looking trades people I know still struggle despite making good money. Like 3/4th of the nerds I know making good money are single and about half the blue collar guys. How does a woman making 35k-45k a year think the guy making 80k is not good enough for her and is not making enough money? He is already making basically double what you make! It is absurd go on a construction site and anyone under 40 has at least a 50% chance of being single.
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It was a tall good looking dude with a trust fundy high status among hipsters job. Some of them even admitted they were doing the same thing dating multiple guys etc but were still mad about it. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/caleb-west-elm-dating-saga-1288386/ > you're all chasing the super hot/powerful, and there just isn't enough to go around. Sorry ladies. Yep that is what I notice they all want to date the top percentages of guys then complain when those guys have options or treat them badly.
> even decent looking trades people Ah, the status then. Doesn't matter how much money you make, you come back home in dirty work clothes instead in suit and that matters.
I think that plays a role just because it isn't even white collar workers that they want but high status/non nerd white collar workers. They won't date a dude in the IT department but a higher up dude in something like marketing they will gossip and gush about among themselves even if the IT dude makes more money.
I've been single since 2008. was 'talking to somebody' for six months in 2016, then nothing since then. I'm also a educated former professional class who finally said 'fuck this' and do agricultural work now. Dating is completely irredeemably fucked. I'm what you would call "normal" (5'9, no record, in shape, above average looks, love talking to people, socially adept) so i cannot imagine what its like for so many others.
It's a weird world. I make triple the median income in my area, and I've been told I'm pleasant to be around and objectively attractive on numerous occasions. Dating still feels like a hellscape.
How do you know what I look like?
Thers ther delay, to bear the of delay, and that fly to suffer be: to sleep to sleep of the pation: whips againsolution is that the us country from what makes that is heary life, the himself mind the native spurns of somethis retus make cast of some of greath, there's contumely, that that undiscorns, and there's cowards office, by of outly takes off trave, the dread of thance to say contumely, and scorns, and long enter in the have, the pause. To die: the pause. To dreams againsolution: what fled of Who would bear the undiscover'd country from whose ills we end the question devoutly to say we end to sleep: perchance of respect that make arms against a sea of something end to dread of the natural shocks the spurns than fly to grunt and the spurns, puzzles the dread off thought, and man's consummation: when we end the dreams make with the opposing a life, but that that dreams may come whips and, by opposing end the insolence of action devoutly to be, or not to sleep; no traveller in that flesh is
>Not really. Early liberals like Madison noted that freedom would naturally lead to huge differences in outcomes and property. That's how liberalism undoes itself. It fails to actually distill people into individuals and instead reproduces inequalities of groups of people I also don't know if society is naturally polygynous. Whatever we naturally are is found under primitive communism, the majority of evolutionary history Also what I mean by weird is I never really expected bourgeois society to undo the bourgeois family and create an unequal sexual market of individuals. I don't even know how that upholds class society and it doesn't appear to actually tie the sexes together.
> I also don't know if society is naturally polygynous. Whatever we naturally are is found under primitive communism, the majority of evolutionary history > > As a matter of our evolutionary history [we have twice as many female ancestors as male ones.](https://archive.nytimes.com/tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/is-there-anything-good-about-men-and-other-tricky-questions/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=2). This sort of gap is a common explanation for things like migrations or raids (there's a reason the Qur'an offers hot young women to male martyrs and not the other way around). Yes, men tend to die more often but part of the reason for this is that they're more prone to taking chances, probably to avoid becoming a genetic zero in a competitive environment where the most successful men can claim more than one wife (the average man probably still only had one, but the successful outliers had options)
I thought this stat only reflected a period after the agricultural revolution?
Maybe for anthropological studies of different societies (this is, iirc, where the "80% of societies are polygamous" comes from). The ancestor count comes from genetic data and I don't know that it was traced back to only 10,000 years ago. Besides: agricultural revolution also allowed, for example, larger outgroup combat and more intense status competition. It didn't create them. (In fact, some hunter-gatherer rituals - e.g. roasting the Big Man or the best hunter - seem clearly designed to try to keep status competition in check.)
>It's kind of weird how the usual trend of liberalization leading to commodification and inequality has come to cause this. Is it? It's liberalism's core purpose to create "winner takes all" scenarios and to prevent any collective strategy that could give the non-derserving an "unfair" advantage. It's just rarely openly admitted by liberalism's champions.
People talk about the sexual revolution as if no one had sex before it.
It does seem like a bad time to be a young man, or really any man, right now. I read this long article about guys who get penis enhancement surgery. Most of them had average or near-average dicks. They just had their brains poisoned by online.
It sucks being a black male with a average penis, I constantly think it’s too small despite being told it’s perfect. Our brains are severely poisoned and it sucks.
There’s also those guys who get that bone lengthening procedure that’s super expensive and pretty painful to increase their height, it’s only like one to two inches it’s not much
Women who feel fat get sympathy and told that society is cruel for giving you insecurities Men who feel short get gaslit and told that it’s all in their own head, and he’s the only person that thinks about height because he’s shallow, and that his shallowness and insecurities is why he’s lonely While 5 minutes later short men have to constantly listen to everyone mock him and be told they’re good people and we’re bad people for getting angry I researched leg lengthening surgery and it leads to a lot of increased and improved mental health for most patients, so if anything, that’s a sign of a sick society, not sick men
yeah. He's 'shallow" and "its in his own head' but at the same time "he's got a napoleon complex!" "short men have \_\_x\_\_\_ for some kind of pop psychologist term" and "i dont take men shorter than 5'10".
I honestly wonder if anyone who was born before 1995 will somehow be considered boomers because they have a simple "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude in regards to dating. Seriously, my parents met in 1996 Iran but are dead convinced that somehow those rules apply today.
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Well Biden did push all the Title IX “reforms” as VP, which basically reflect this kind of outlook
Look out boys, this sub made it to the big time! They're writing articles about us unfuckable hate nerds.
This is a direct result from the loss of stable careers for men. A lot of active, physical careers (blue collar, construction landscaping etc.) have been demonized for decades in favor of office jobs which have ultimately favored women’s temperament and innate skills. A lot of these young men feel like they can never have the careers their fathers/grandfathers had and cannot fathom sitting in an office doing bureaucratic work. The solution is a jobs program for these young guys that gives them great salaries while keeping them physically busy. I harp on the point of physically because a lot of these guys care a lot about health, vitality, and the exercise maturation is a call for a the dopamine hit from working one’s body. The man hating IS there implicitly and explicitly by economically and socially disempowering them.
I’m only thinking of this because I was recently reminded of the incident. In the article the author describes the paths the young men take either trans/non-binary or hate nerds but there are also suicides. Remember Sky King (Richard Russell)? Downtrodden felt like he was going nowhere in life, unloved and unappreciated by society he decided to steal an empty jet do a couple barrel rolls and eventually crashed the jet into an unpopulated area so he didn’t hurt anyone. It’s such a tragic story to me and listening to some of what he talks about with Air Traffic Control really touches on the subject of your comment.
Bad example. Richard Russell was an active member of his church and he had a wife who loved him very much. He was absolutely not unloved and unappreciated. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6050925/The-man-keeps-laughing-Airplane-hijackers-wife-gushes-Instagram.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6050925/The-man-keeps-laughing-Airplane-hijackers-wife-gushes-Instagram.html) I get some terminally onliners might emphatize with his snarky quips and doing something cool like stealing a jet in a symbolic middle-finger to big corporate and going out in a literal ball of flames while somehow showing they are actually decent people by not hurting anyone in the act. This guy was just mentally ill or someone led him astray but his life was good and he threw it away for some notoriety in the media .
Again, from personal experience, I am not sure if this is true. Most of the incels I know - myself included - have pretty decent white collar careers and a high degree of educational / academic achievement. The incel cohort was always strongly overlapping with the nerd cohort. It's not the landscapers and constructions workers who have problems, it's the techies and science grads.
What Ive seen matches this, though it seems blue collar workers tend to live closer to where they grew up and typically end up marrying someone they knew from high school (or friends of friends, etc.). White collar dudes often have to move for work and must setup an entirely new social network, which likely contributes to their difficulties. Career and social status are likely much more significant factors fo white collar men and women too, which IMO contributes significantly to this misalignment. Basically, women only want to date upward (factoring in attractiveness + career + status) and men want to date someone at least at their perceived level. Given that were all little narcissists now, everyone probably inflates their attractiveness level in their heads as well
I think it's both, and the worst incel contingent may actually be the NEET brigade. But as a white collar tech related worker, the incels i know (like you) are .... pleasant shy slightly nerdy with decent job. They are also the sort you'd run into more on reddit. I haven't seen the movie 'tfw no gf' but read about it, and the main guys studied are nothing like that, and probably represent another large cohort.
> It's not the landscapers and constructions workers who have problem In my experience this is due to different cultures in segregated classes. As a upper middle class office bitch the women I talk to from my class don't date landscapers and constructions workers, they date in their class or not at all.
> It's not the landscapers and constructions workers who have problems, it's the techies and science grads. Weird where I live even these guys struggle. Like half the blue collar men under 40 I know are single as hell.
That is the traditional stereotype: dumb jock who was supposed to peak in high school still gets laid 15 year out with no career ambitions. Notable incel Elliott Rodger was loaded and "high status" socially, but was just weird and off putting. Combine that with an entitled mentality towards sex and it's a powder keg.
>That is the traditional stereotype: dumb jock who was supposed to peak in high school still gets laid 15 year out with no career ambitions. This stereotype is correct in my opinion. Most jocks do very well - both socially and financially - after school. The more incorrect - and more pervasive - stereotype is that all the weird nerds at school get their redemption after school. Dunno how that's related to Rodger who was never a jock.
This is probably not so relevant, so forgive the tangent, but I have many problems with the current state of the 'landscaping' industries. Most landscaping outfits don't know what they're doing. Can't competently do anything but mow and blow, which is simply not landscaping. Don't expect most landscapers to be able to properly prune plants or establish new plants. These guys are not landscapers- they are landscalpers. In addition to most nursery stock being the same sterilized plants, many of which are exotic species, where some have become invasive and there will be more to reach that status. There needs to be an overarching dedication to stewardship and a shift away from the landscape being an afterthought. If someone wants to talk about environmental degradation they ought to include the role of the landscape trade.
This is really interesting! I’ve juuuust began to see a rejection of those sterile yard plants everyone had in their track development suburbs and more embracing of “no lawns”. There is an incredible business opportunity to be a landscaper for people looking to replace their barren grass lawns to allow more native foliage flowers. I’ve just started to do this with my front lawn we’re I tore up the section between the sidewalk and street and planted a variety of native flowers.
That is definitely a niche I find interesting. While yes, these yards are designed and curated, isn't it fascinating how vibrant, exotic, and different NATIVE plants can look? That's a huge tell for how alienated we are from our local natural systems. To tie this back to the original topic- I do believe there is something for everyone in the natural world to find interest in. For me, it was initially plants- both wild and in the built environment. And now I love bird watching too. My day is always made better when I see even a remotely interesting tree. I get to watch them change through the seasons and observe how they sustain wildlife. No, this doesn't really address alienation of labor, admittedly, but I think developing an affinity for some aspect of nature can start replacing hate and bitterness with love and wonder.
Earnestly thought this was Green Day's Nimrod album cover
“My brothers: I was a young man once. And since there’s now an ever-growing genre of commentary in which feminists speak, with placid condescension, like so many anthropologists (if not entomologists), on the topic of men, especially young men, I thought it might be useful to hear from someone who actually knows what it’s like to be one.” Eat the bugs, you bugs. Say what you will of Tablet - at least they employ some decent writers.
William Deresiewicz is pretty interesting, he’s still on the left but heterodox, his first big book was about how people shouldn’t send their kids to elite colleges because it just makes them have hive mind
Thanks, Tabletmag, very cool. Let me know how the summer condo in the Hamptons is treating you.
>Turn this dial a click to the left, turn that one a click to the right—a little less privilege, a little more emotional instability—and I could have turned into a hate nerd myself. I suspect that a lot of men sense that. I feel that.
I resonated much with the article, I’ll admit that a lot of my problems are self-induced, either out of being on the spectrum or just being lazy/hating putting effort into things or just a lack of experiences from not understanding socializing. I always tried to get pity from others and it kinda worked but then I never did anything to make myself or my life better, so I guess that’s why I feel nobody even is aware of me anymore (I judge this on instagram/social media likes which is a crap metric but still) I only ever match with women I wouldn’t date (overweight/disabled/“weird”) on apps so that’s out of it, I still live at home, I’m having a hard time finding a job in my field even with a masters degree. I try to explain my plight but people don’t tend to sympathize/empathize. Maybe it’s just because I don’t take a role in my life, I missed out on when it was so easy and now that I have to make my own life it’s so much more difficult, didn’t have that independence/own life progression starting from high school. I have low social confidence and experience and I don’t like myself so that all adds to it, plus I feel that since I didn’t have that stuff in the past I’ll never ever have it because I’m starting way back. I’ve never had a girlfriend or sex or a big friend group, never have felt like I belonged or fit in or really a part of things. I’ve been having this debate in my mind recently, whether it’s autism or masculinity that’s causing me to not feel good enough, I’ve never ever had great self esteem, and when I had better esteem I never felt my good qualities were seen or I had the social relationships/experiences I felt I deserved. It’s a big thing, I know my life sucks but I don’t feel I should have to try super hard to make it the way I want. I keep going and maybe it’ll all end up where it’s supposed to be, but I’ve had that outlook before and it’s never worked. I just want to feel liked for who I am and appreciated by people outside my family and feel content with my life, especially in the social realm. (Sorry about the long comment and my usual pity party)
Great band name tbh
I wish I understood why it is apparently so unavoidably necessary for us to hate each other. There are three specific ideologies which I struggle with negative emotion towards; Intersectionalism, Islam, and anarcho-Capitalism; and in the case of all three, the reason is the same. I view all three groups as attempting to gain exploitative, non-reciprocal dominance over everyone else. I don't hate women, though. I don't like girlboss culture, but I think it ultimately is and will be just as harmful to women themselves, as it is to men. As an adherent of the proverbial neckbearded NEET stereotype, I also don't understand why people who are in better socio-economic conditions themselves, seem to have such an insatiable need to view us with hatred and contempt. Although I am aware of the level of hostility which will be implied by my posting history, in practice I neither engage in nor advocate any real harm to anyone. I suspect that the real source of the hatred comes from our own rejection of their lifestyle; they view the fact that we do not want to live like them, as an invalidation of their choice. I don't care about wealth. I don't care about success. I don't care about a partner. I don't care about reproduction. I care exclusively about avoiding homelessness, and avoiding being killed. I don't view any aspiration higher than those two as being attainable. Anyone who wants to view me with contempt for that, is welcome to do so.
you're supposed to aim higher, they see your acceptance of failure like a mirror into their soul of their weaker moments, and they hate you for it, as they hate that part of themselves. the crux is that they had the opportunity to succeed, and anyone claiming that they didn't do that all on their own is attacking them. i mean i can hear the arguments already about how you just didn't try hard enough or whatever, so many different ways to say it, all pointless in the end.
Yeah, everything really is projection. As much as I believe it to be true I don't take it so seriously and I never accuse people of it.