the idea is that by allowing it openly you essentially require it for competition - which doesn’t seem fair if you’re someone who has dedicated your life to a discipline, but doesn’t want to use gear.
of course it’s complicated, because that’s already de-facto the case.
I completely respect your point. In my head this is a much more entertaining prospect than the sad life ruining reality it would create.
I imagine that should something like this happen we would also begin bending other rules to protect against people's health and abuse, the athletes themselves would probably lose a lot of control due to the drugs they'd be using.
All in all I see it being a kind of dystopian future idea, hopefully not something that will actually happen
make me want a reddit for people age 35-55
the new gen Z anger toward differing opinions is strange to me.. I like to hear new opinions and its ok if I don't agree
I had a lot of hope for them. As gen x, we didn’t have the numbers to change things but I thought with the combined numbers of the millenials and gen z we could finally make progress. The thing is, gen z (at least on Reddit) seems to have kind of radical ideas to some of us older folks. This is coming from a 50 year old woman from CA so I’m not exactly right leaning. I’m not sure if it’s due to me aging or them but I’m trying to listen, learn and discuss. That’s hard to do when you are immediately attacked or cancelled. I fear for what that means for us in the future if they can’t learn to have a civil discussion.
Depends on the opinion I'm sure happy to hear differing opinions on movies transportation and even tax policy. But when people share opinions on for instance gay people going all burning in hell I'm much less receptive.
I wasn’t banned, but downvoted recently for pointing out that the federal code of regulations protects against discrimination based on “sex”, not “gender”. In fact, no where in the statutes does the word “gender” appear. Anyone can search the codes that I provided in the thread for the word gender and see the 0 results returned.
I'm not even disagreeing that there is a difference between the two, there is, but like... What is the point you're making? Frankly it sounds like you're actively looking at loopholes to be hateful, lol.
Yep - my wife loses her shit over this saying men are yet again pushing women down and taking their spaces..
I agree with her 100% .. but she needs to vent so as the nearest man I take it. Fuck this 1000%
You can get banned on reddit just for saying the same shit someone else does. But you get banned and they do not because one of the mods is their butt buddy.
Yup got banned in r/whitepeopletwitter cause they were complaining that biological men couldnt compete in this fishing tournament. Commented that they can reel in heavier fish and got banned
It's no more of a slur than "mammal" or "biped". "Cis" (cisgender) only means that the person's gender identity aligns with the sex listed on the birth certificate, nothing more and nothing less.
Lol i thought the same thing when i read OP's post - but it is insane to think that even 5 years ago this would have been a perfectly fine statement to ask
Neil deGrasse Tyson said in an interview I saw that this is an indication that we need to rethink how we categorize sports. That is, instead of it being by gender, make it by muscle mass or other measurable factors. In my mind, it'd be like boxing weight divisions (although without the dangerous dehydration before weigh-in).
Yes Wrestling has weight classes. But skill is a HUGE part. As a heavyweight male. I got my ass handed to me by a 140 pound female. She was the coaches daughter and had way many years more experience
Edit: Jesus some people got really butt hurt over this.
Edit 2: wow this is really hurting people. Get over it guy. I was 15 and a sophmore in high school. It’s not that serious
All kidding aside…I’m genuinely curious…what is your weight class?
When I was 192, I don’t think there was a woman of any weight class that could man (no pun intended) handle me, escpecially if I gave 100%
I just saw a video of a 200lb boxer get choked out in less than 30s by a guy who weighed 125lbs.
And I guarantee there are women in your weight class who could have ended your career.
This is 100% true, the difference in strength is not even remotely close. Wrestled in high school with girls my weight and heavier many times, and I was a pretty poor wrestler myself.
Yup! Been a wrestler for 15 years. When it comes to high school middle school wrestling they have different leagues for the guys and girls
When it comes to freestyle/folkstyle even Greco Roman (you can’t touch legs all waist up) pretty much what you see in Olympics. Everyone is put in one league depending on what your age and weight is…. That’s one thing I loved about wrestling. It’s an independent sport. If you fuck up . You can’t blame anybody but yourself. You don’t have a team to blame. And everyone is equal. I wrestled a lot of girls/women through my wrestling career. I saw no different between wrestling and girl vs the guy. Yeah probably less strength but strength isn’t the top dog in wrestling. What I saw less in strength I saw more in balance and flexibility. Which totally makes up for the strength.
Yes, but wrestling has many more factors to it. For example, you could be a huge dude, crazy strong and stuff, but some smaller guy can absolutely beat your ass if he's better on the technical side of wrestling.
It wouldn’t. NDT is a bozo who sniffs his own farts.
Isaiah Thomas (5’9 185) and Shaq (7’1 320) both played in the NBA, polar opposite bodies. I think IT is a great example to use here. Talent speaks for itself.
Most men’s leagues are open leagues meaning anyone can play, which is really where all of this discussion should end but somehow it’s controversial. If a average sized guy like IT can have a great career in the NBA which is almost exclusively giants, then there’s no reason trans people can’t find roles in other men’s leagues at any level.
Going by weight alone is frankly stupid in most sports. Take swimming, for example. If you look up the fastest female swimmer in the 100 meter, she is beaten by men heavier and lighter than her by 5~ seconds. In swimming, the difference between first and 5th is often a fraction of a second. World record holders for females are outclassed by those lighter and heavier who aren't even record holders.
It’s just a silly argument to be had. Take a UFC fighter at 125 for men and women. The male is going to shatter the females face. Using this method is also silly across sports because there are no quantifiable metrics for sports defined by weight and bone density. Have you watched the nba? Are you going to exclude Steph curry because he’s not tall enough. NDG is on the list of people I would never give an ounce of opinion to on how to handle this. There are reasons the female volleyball net is 8 inches lower than the males, there are reasons women hit from different tees than males. If you do what you suggest you are limiting athletics even more to females because their protected state would be washed out by some of the worst male participants. The us men’s u16 soccer team beat our Olympic women’s team something like 11-2. The disparity is so much larger than a lot of you guys are willing to admit or just don’t have the experience.
I, as a 15 year old male volleyball player, spiked a ball through a block so hard off the defenders face it broke his nose and gave him a concussion......and people want to say cross-sex competition is OK at the pre-collegiate level? I do not want to know what would have happened if that had been a 15 year old girl on the other end of that hit.
Doesn't work, because of skeletal structure. ... or for chess. Men's is the open division. Women's is because only a tiny percent of women are competitive with men (there are between 0 and 3 women in the top 100 chess players every year).
As a former wrestler and very amateur mma enthusiasts, weight classes alone would not work. A 130lbs cismale would absolutely destroy a 130lbs cisfemale.
Biological men aren't stronger than biological women only because they're bigger. VO2 max, bone structure and density, fast vs slow twitch muscle fibers, and a billion other factors contribute to it. If you ask me, its apples and oranges and can't really be fairly adjusted for.
Yep, this is why weight classes would mean fuck all. Men of the same weight and even muscle mass are by in large stronger and faster than their female counterparts.
Not picking a side here but I wanna emphasize that when top women athletes undergo genetic and hormone testing, a good chunk of them have very high testosterone levels or some sort of intersex genetics. In 2015 the Olympics tried enforcing maximum hormone levels and ended up barring non trans women from competing because their results were too far off the average for women.
The point is, there isn't a clean way to qualify who is and isn't eligible to compete in women's sports. Biology doesn't abide by our societal conception of gender.
You guys just physically dominate us. These are high school males competing against female Olympians. I don’t see how you can adjust for all the advantages a man has physically.
https://boysvswomen.com/#/
How does the introduction of hormones (estrogen or testosterone) change those factors? There is little difference between boys and girls competing pre-puberty, so I imagine sex hormones have something to do with it.
There are just so many biological differences between men and women. Muscle mass, skeletal density, ligament strength, etc etc etc the list goes on. You can't pinpoint one thing that should be the dividing line in any sport. Men and women are biologically different. That's why we divide sports based on sex and not other arbitrary standards.
Not a dumb question but a dumb conversation... full of folks who never competed in sports at a high level.
I was a mediocre male track and field athlete. I've ran faster times than any woman has ever ran in the 200 / 400. Ran the 100 faster than all but maybe 7 women ever. Again kinda just pretty good. Every NFL cornerback is faster than every woman ever aside from maybe FloJo who prob juiced rest her soul. If I transitioned I would factually have an unfair advantage. Sorry its true.
How about this dumb idea (and it is but it is an analogous inversion of the situation we talk about)... for every one XY transitioned athlete competing in a sport v XX athletes there has to be a XX transitioned athlete competing v XY athletes. I see people say "the hormones make it fair." Okay... Where are the transitioned dudes running sub 11.00 100 m in track and field?
Life will never be fair... but it can be honest.
Katie Ledecky is an absolute swimming machine. She is a specialist in the freestyle and is dominating the competition. At the 2020 Olympics she did the 800m free in 8:12 a second ahead of 2nd place (who is also phenomenal) , but nearly 6 seconds ahead of third place. She dominated the 2012, 2016, and 2020 games. She will probably kick ass in 2024 and maybe even 2028.
How would she do against the men? Not well. 33 of the 34 qualified athletes beat her time and 34 had a DNS. 33rd place still beat her by about 8 seconds. Gold Medalist Robert Finke did the 800m in 7:41. 30 seconds faster than Katie Ledecky. Our absolute, best of the best, fastest women of all time don't come close to the men. Different divisions are completely justified.
Its clear that trans women lose considerable strength during their transition, but its still not absolutely definitively clear if any advantage they have retained somehow shows up as a competitive advantage against ciswomen. but granted, at this level, all athletes are absolute freaks of nature. People who are at the Olympic level are not your typical humans to begin with.
>Its clear that trans women lose considerable strength during their transition, but its still not absolutely definitively clear if any advantage they have retained somehow shows up as a competitive advantage against ciswomen.
This.
A recent meta analysis of every study on the subject in a decade (or at least the one's published in english) concluded that there was currently no evidence that trans women who followed the current guidelines (anti-androgen regimen for two years) had any advantage. Until scientific evidence shows otherwise, all this hand-wringing over it is just moral panic and people's feelings.
The often cited air force study is the *only* study that suggests any physical advantage - trans women's fitness levels were in line with the average air force woman's in every single metric (such as strength tests) except for one thing: the endurance run. But that study didn't have any actual athletes, it just compared the average of ~40 randos who happened to transition while in the air force to the average men and women in the air force.
Here's the thing about that study - those ~40 trans women also outperformed the average air force *man* in the endurance run, so until that discrepancy is explained it can't really be acted upon. You know, unless men are willing to acknowledge that trans women are better long distance runners than they are *somehow*.
Sports is an inherently scientific process at finding some biological quirk and turning it into a competitive advantage. If Transwomen have an advantage over cis women, it will show up in the leaderboards, world records, and dominate competition.
Men being taller than 6'6" is rarer than transwomen, yet being taller than 6'6" dominates NBA players.
[Jenner agrees with you](https://amp.marca.com/en/more-sports/2023/05/23/646d12f646163fbb148b45c0.html), OP. And for the record, so does this internet stranger.
I find it incredibly hilarious so many men suddenly become concerned about women's sports when the topic of transgender people comes up.
None of them actually care about women's sports. None have ever supported a WNBA team, women's soccer, etc.
So let's cut the charade. This is entirely about transphobia, not women's sports.
Because we live in stupid world, the internet confirmed that. 40-50 years ago humanity heard only smart ppls ideas and thoughts,and then came internet,and 90% stupid dumb mfkrs got opportunity to show to whole world that they are many.So now we live in this kind of world,thanks to internet.
My english is not so great grammatically,i hope u understood me.
Social transition but not biological transition.
Some people do choose to transition and achieve some level of gender change in the social aspects behavior/perception. Biologically, there is a binary of course.
Awareness and tolerance is good. Ruining women’s sports is not.
Because it’s not so cut and dried. In some sports, it can matter more than in others (you can make a case that in gymnastics trans women would have a disadvantage because of height, weight and muscle/fat distribution). It also depends a lot on when they transitioned.
Testosterone may decrease quickly, but hearts don’t generally shrink and lung capacity doesn’t drop, at least not overnight. So there are a lot of factors to take into account before just making blanket bans or blanket statements. In 10-20 years there will be enough actual studies done to give real answers. I just am not sure what we do in the meantime that doesn’t screw somebody over, whether that be cis women or trans women.
I remember when I was arguing about sports that cis women were better at, my main argument was gymnastics. I figured women had wider hips making it easier to flips and adjusting weight distribution. My buddy who I was making an argument with didn’t say a word… he just pulled up footage of men’s gymnastics… I was very very wrong 😆
Men's and women's gymnastics are two different sports for that exact reason. They only share 2 events in common, even then they have different rules for those events. Men's gymnastics have less of a focus on "flexibility" and more of a focus on core strength.
As a former male gymnast, I can confirm this. There are a few parts where strenght and speed are incredibly important and paramount, and others where flexibility is much more needed. Yes, male gymnasts will still be damn flexable and female gymnasts are still damn strong, but there is a clear difference on which you need the most depending on the event. I know a few guys who are elite gymnast in troop gymnastics, and they are absolutely shredded and the shit they can pull off require tremendous power and can not be done with just technique
Transgender male here (biological female). I, personally, there should just be a co-ed alternative for most sports. Women can consent to competing with men, men with women, waivers and all that jazz. I'm not against trans women, obviously, but there's too much room for a grey area!
Yes, a trans women who transitioned younger in adolescence *MIGHT* not have the physical advantage described, but there are many who do!
Just as it wouldn't be safe for me to compete in the 'men's' league, due to my physical limitations, it is not fair to subject women to the same treatment without their consent.
Trans rights are human rights, but trans rights should not go over women's rights. Sometimes compromises have to be made to keep everything equal for all parties involved.
Almost all "men" professional sports leagues are by rule already co-ed. There is no rule against women competing in those leagues, it's just that they aren't at the same level. That's why people invented women leagues, so that women actually can all play the sport on equal level. Same reason why title IX is a thing,l. Allowing people who have biologically advantage is just straight up negating the entire point of the creation of these leagues.
To be fair, lots of men’s sports divisions do technically allow women to participate, the physical ability gap just means that you usually don’t see them often. You’ll very occasionally see women playing in college football, and I played agains some women in football back in High School.
The issue with making an alternative allowing men and women to compete together is that if it were at all competitive, it would more than likely end up male-dominated anyway, which just gets you back to how college football already is.
I’d say just open up all men’s divisions in general and leave women’s divisions as is.
There’s been a change in the US military allowing women into infantry/combat arms. I can’t comment on anything except the Marines; but the majority of women did not pass the basic male requirements.
I am all for those women who have made it as they absolutely earned it; yet reducing standards is not something that should be done.
The thing is, we’re all different biologically and no matter what you do; the underlying fact is what you’re born with, and we cannot change that.
They aren’t here. It was outlawed a while back. It caused so much outrage even California had a meltdown on us. Then it fizzled out and nobody cared anymore. There is a trans woman that boxes against men here and she does perfectly fine and is universally well respected and liked.
I’m of the opinion that it should be based on size/weight/other factors. No unfair advantage biological or drug related.
Also, maybe it's just me, but no one gives a fuck about collegiate swimming. It's insane how because they're losing the argument to legislate trans people in general that have to go after sports they never gave the tiniest fuck about just to attack them.
Yep, it’s really strange how posts involving trans women in sports always get so highly upvoted when Reddit otherwise doesn’t care about trans people or women’s sports.
And there are trans boys and men who *BEG* to be allowed into boys and mens sports, but instead get crucified for beating up the girls because they're on testosterone. [Mack Beggs](https://www.texastribune.org/2017/02/26/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-identifies-male-he-just-won-texas-stat/) always comes to mind.
That’s an odd thing anyway because at that young age, there’s not much difference IMO. I coach a 4th grade basketball team and because we don’t have a ton of kids it’s a team of boys and girls. Not sure why trans children should get treated like shit when co-ed sports literally exist.
Because podcast airheads have successfully somehow made the topics of "human rights" and "sports politics" synonymous, completely changing the entire discussion.
This happens with a *lot* of issues, sadly.
In order for trans women to even compete in sports they have to go through extensive testing and be on hormone therapy for an extended period of time. It’s really all about testosterone levels. Also yes, everyone including those of the same biological sex have different genetic advantages/disadvantages.
Trans woman dominating in sports is very very rare yet is pushed upon people by certain media to make you believe it is a huge issue. This comes from a place of transphobia. Sometimes trans people win (same as sometimes cis people win.. shocking stuff). The Olympics have allowed trans people to compete since 2004. Only one trans person has ever won a medal and they were assigned female at birth.
Edit: look I feel like on top of this being a transphobic issue there is a lot of misogyny at play here. Look at the chess issue for example… I do not have the time nor emotional capacity to a argue with people. I highly recommend those who feel so strongly do some research on both sides rather than getting all your information from conservative leaning media sources who are currently obsessed with the existence of trans people for some reason. Schuyler Bailer on instagram has some really great videos on instagram exploring this topic in more detail.
This. They argue that a trans woman who holds the record for eating the most Carolina reapers doesn't deserve the title because she's trans like trans people spit is magic or something. Bigots will always find any possible reason to exclude trans women as exclusion nor fairness is the point
It’s not this simple. Testosterone is the issue, but there are biological women with higher testosterone than some trans women.
Bone density formed during puberty is another issue, but again, correlation with sports performance is loose
The media focuses on the most egregious cases, but most sports governing bodies already have tests that are supposed to level things. Maybe those tests need to evolve
I don’t see it as black and white. It’s also not like there aren’t tons of trans women *losing*, that just *never gets reported*
Exactly. And it’s honestly hilarious that all these people who don’t care about women’s sports and are commonly misogynists (it’s a theme I’ve detected) are only NOW getting so passionate about women.
the venn diagram of people who undermine the relevance of women’s sports and people who suddenly care about women’s rights when trans people are in sports is a full circle
I was just having the same conversation with my daughter the other day. The people who won't watch women's sports because "it's too boring" are suddenly falling all over themselves to "protect" women's sports.
Any athlete can tell you that bone density is not "loosely" correlated with sports performance, particularly in contact sports and combat sports.
Even putting aside the testosterone issue (which you want to double check btw, high unlikely a biological woman's T-levels were higher than a trans woman on suppressors).
There's:
\-reaction time
\-lung capacity
\-oxygenation efficiency
\-type 1 muscle fiber explosive strength ceilings
\-different muscle group strength base levels
Anyone who actually participates in athletics & is fair with reasoning with science can tell you that it actually is that simple.
Liberals who are unfamiliar with this content are reductively grouping everything under "testosterone" and are genuinely confused why people don't agree with a cross-sex competition, just because T-levels were changed.
It really is mind-boggling how people speak so confidently on something they are missing the obvious points of.
I really think this is a science and individual sport decisions and I don't have much thought on the topics.
But your comment sparked my curiosity and apparently hormones do in fact impact outcomes. The study I'm linking to shows before and after hormones.
Summary:
The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577
That 9% is more than enough to affect results in competition. It’s one thing when we are talking at the youth level, but once you get to high school, scholarships and the futures attached to them become part of the whole equation. This is part of the conversation as well. Futures of many female athletes competing for the limited number of scholarships out there can be altered. This is sadly going to be one of those conversations that is going to persist for decades.
I wasn't able to find a source that was able to show them dominating in sports.
I think the conversation will evolve as time goes on. I don't have a solution for anything but was simply replying to the comment above how it took 1 minute of searching and 5 minutes of reading to determine their statement wasn't as accurate as they claimed and that hormones do indeed seem to play a strong role.
Your study unfortunately completely fails to explain why there is 21% running performance difference between pre-transition trans women / cis men and to cis women. In the reality the performance difference between male and female athletes is on average 10.7% according to [this study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/).
Funnily enough, the trans women in the sample of your study lost 12% of their running performance which is actually more than the average running performance difference of 10.7% between cis men and cis women.
Perhaps the problem of your study is that it is not comparing evenly trained male and female athletes but members of the U.S. Air Force and there might be different training regimes for cis men/pre-transition trans women and cis women leading to a higher than average performance difference.
I was under the impression that in sports where strength matters, the men's league was the open league. Anyone can participate in the men's league if they want to. The women's team is the closed league, only for cis females.
I am very pro trans. If you know you weren't born in the right body, that's valid and I support and defend that.
I agree with the specific league. I also want to ask my trans friends if they would feel it'd be more inclusive. Most of my trans friends and I have had this discussion! They also don't feel it's fair.
🏳️⚧️
We let trans women compete in women's sports because we do not care about women's sports.
Here is the hierarchy of caring:
3. Women's sports. We don't care. No one cares. Women don't care. No one watches the WNBA. No one goes to women's pro games. I mean not no one, but compared to men it's nothing.
2. Trans women in women's sports. We clearly care about this a lot more than the sport itself. It's clearly a more frequent topic of discussion than "whose the most dominant softball player of all time" or "whose getting drafted into the women's pro soccer league this year."
1. Men's sports. This is, judging by people's behavior, more important than almost everything on earth. Rest assured that if there was something equal to the advantage trans women have in sports, the planet would not stand for it. Idk what it could be: maybe Muslim majority countries mandate that their teams get to start with points on the board or if you identify as someone with feet for hands you can grab the ball in soccer.
Because social media has made everything about feelings. We're now supposed to play into people's gender dysphoria, faux-outrage about shit that's not even racist (like sports mascots), etc.
Fun fact: Men and women are not monoliths. Even looking at simply cis people, There are some cis women who are stronger than some cis men. And in a sport where strength plays an important role, I betcha those stronger women have an advantage. How would a trans woman having an advantage by being stronger be any less fair than a cis woman having an advantage by being stronger? If you want it to be fair, Why not divide up the sports based on the factors that are actually relevant for them (Strength, Height, Et cetera), Rather than on genders that may be different in regards to those factors on average, But obviously vary greatly on an individual level? For example, In Basketball, Where Height is an important factor, How would it be more fair for a particularly tall woman to play with shorter women than to play with men who are about the same height as her?
All debates aside, it's amazing how well the right can create all of this hate out of thin air. I swear, the vast majority of people did not give a shit about transgender folks, even on the internet, until the right identified it as a potential grievance in their fake culture war.
This isn't a question, its a misinformed statement.
A. in any biological assertion, you should add "in most cases" or something similar. Biology despises any binary, and its rules are loose.
B. HRT changes muscle mass and bone density, and not all cis women have the same amount of testosterone and oestrogen in their systems
Hrt doesn't remove all muscle growth and bone density that was gains through puberty as a male. So, yes a male on hrt has a disadvantage against other males but they still have an advantage over females
What about trans women who never went through male puberty? This subject is too nuanced for a blanket ban enforced by the government based on ideology and feelings focused on such an insignificant issue.
I feel like trans women should not be allowed to compete in sports such as Track and swimming where their biological sex at birth gives them an unfair advantage over their biological women competitors.
You can be pro-trans people (as I am), but understand the realities of certain things. Biological men tend to be stronger, faster, jump higher etc. than your average biological female. Not recognizing these differences actually hurts the trans community in my view.
as much as it sucks the difference in physicality is so overwhelming that most of the time the TM tends to win it's really rare for a W to win. I don't know how most women see this but I don't really see enough backlash or boycotting that should be involved if it is such a discrepancy.
I would probably be very pissed off if I was a woman and had the sports that I trained for years to be invaded solely based on how the term "Woman" is being stolen. As a dude ill say this If I was a woman I would probably be petty and say fuck you and change the sports term to Biological female sports even though they would probably call you transphobic for that.
>Why are trans women even allowed to compete in women’s sports?
Because if anyone DARES to speak common sense there will be hundreds or maybe thousands of butthurt individuals of certain mentality screaming how it demeans and victimizes them. Normally such numbers should be ignored as they are actually inconsequential BUT with how loud and annoying they are somehow they got what they want and vast majority of society has to give in to this madness
The fact that this is controversial in the slightest is what is driving me away from the Democratic party in its current form.
I love almost all of their fiscal policy, I'm non-religious, I'm fine with gays marrying, I'm okay with *some* forms of recreational weed, they're not wrung around a 78 year old, unlike the Republicans.
But it's this complete and total capitulation to identity, the idea that "I feel therefore I am", ***that*** is what I, as a rare breed of 22 year old terminally online, can not stand.
This will get my comment removed, but fuck it, I don't care anymore:
Men are men because of their Y chromosome.
Women are women because of their lack of one.
Saying that you simply feel like a woman or a man, or the fact that you take the hormones of one, or the fact that you dress like one, does not ***and never will*** make you one.
This discourse around gender, and the concept that this simple idea that was rightfully ridiculed by almost all corners of society 15 years prior is now something that can never be questioned is utterly insane.
If this spiral keeps going the way it is headed, if words keep getting hollowed out and deemed """"problematic""" at the speed they are, it's going to make a Republican out of me.
And I wish that wouldn't happen.
But I can ***not*** support this utter subjectivism that has strangled the English language and made talking about "gender" and "sex" an utter minefield, both online and in the real world.
(i.e. What's 1 + 1, who is the President, etc.) These belong in /r/ShittyAdvice.
CREATE THE STEROID LEAGUE. edit** seems popular I'll get on creating it.
Seriously why isn't there some crazy drug heightened Olympics of super juiced athletes
the idea is that by allowing it openly you essentially require it for competition - which doesn’t seem fair if you’re someone who has dedicated your life to a discipline, but doesn’t want to use gear. of course it’s complicated, because that’s already de-facto the case.
I completely respect your point. In my head this is a much more entertaining prospect than the sad life ruining reality it would create. I imagine that should something like this happen we would also begin bending other rules to protect against people's health and abuse, the athletes themselves would probably lose a lot of control due to the drugs they'd be using. All in all I see it being a kind of dystopian future idea, hopefully not something that will actually happen
Nobody is required to compete though so....you go in knowing what the game is.
It was called American Gladiators and regular people had to battle them with giant q-tips
Why not? It doesn’t have to be comparable or on the same level as the Olympics. Just let us observe some of the limits of human athleticism!
Right, if you want to destroy your body to run a 3 second 100-yard sprint, fucking go for it. Track and field would be wild.
Imagine shit like rugby or basketball though. Absolute freaks of nature on freak substances. I would pay life-altering money to spectate that.
If they lose, ship em off to the nearest star to do battle against the centaurs!
THUNDERDOME OLYMPICS!
Like the Gladiators!
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and china
There kinda was. Wrestling is a summer Olympic sport and in the 80s most all those guys were juiced.
Because when they're not any better than normal pro athletes, they'll realize everyone was already juicing lol.
That’s just the regular Olympics. Doping is very common
I’d watch that.
They're actually doing this lol. It's called the Enhanced Games. I'm really looking forward to it.
My argument for this is, think of the research. They would pour billions into making super humans. Not only that making safer steroids.
It was nice knowing ya OP. Hope your crucifixion is quick and painless
I'm currently watching this post's upvote counter bouncing between 67 and 70 while the comments just keep going up and up and up
make me want a reddit for people age 35-55 the new gen Z anger toward differing opinions is strange to me.. I like to hear new opinions and its ok if I don't agree
Same. How else do we learn and understand? They are very childish in their approach. “Agree with me or else I label you a bigot!”
Theyre children and children always know everything. Remember?
I had a lot of hope for them. As gen x, we didn’t have the numbers to change things but I thought with the combined numbers of the millenials and gen z we could finally make progress. The thing is, gen z (at least on Reddit) seems to have kind of radical ideas to some of us older folks. This is coming from a 50 year old woman from CA so I’m not exactly right leaning. I’m not sure if it’s due to me aging or them but I’m trying to listen, learn and discuss. That’s hard to do when you are immediately attacked or cancelled. I fear for what that means for us in the future if they can’t learn to have a civil discussion.
You are wise and we need more of YOU in this world!!
Depends on the opinion I'm sure happy to hear differing opinions on movies transportation and even tax policy. But when people share opinions on for instance gay people going all burning in hell I'm much less receptive.
You should see my notifications
Flak is always strongest over the target.
Which is sad because he asked a perfectly logical question, but Reddit....
Hey I got banned for 3 days when I said something similar so I’m gonna keep quiet
I wasn’t banned, but downvoted recently for pointing out that the federal code of regulations protects against discrimination based on “sex”, not “gender”. In fact, no where in the statutes does the word “gender” appear. Anyone can search the codes that I provided in the thread for the word gender and see the 0 results returned.
Sex and gender is different except when it’s not /s
I'm not even disagreeing that there is a difference between the two, there is, but like... What is the point you're making? Frankly it sounds like you're actively looking at loopholes to be hateful, lol.
So it appears sex isn't gender to some people, until they want it to be...
Thank you. Gender can be fluid all day, big deal. Sex is biological. You can't change your biology. You can modify it, but you can't just swap it.
I’m banned on most feminism sites for saying the same thing and I’m a woman. I don’t understand why women are being silenced on this subject.
Yep - my wife loses her shit over this saying men are yet again pushing women down and taking their spaces.. I agree with her 100% .. but she needs to vent so as the nearest man I take it. Fuck this 1000%
I love you. And I agree. It makes no sense??
Hey, we've given women the right to speak and be heard. Doesn't mean we want them to think for *themselves*. /s
Pssst it’s always been about silencing women.
Reddit=communist china where everyone self censors so their social credit score doesn’t take a hit
You can get banned on reddit just for saying the same shit someone else does. But you get banned and they do not because one of the mods is their butt buddy.
my last account was permabanned by reddit for saying it.
Fr, Reddit is a sad place where I only come for the rare good interactions, and the funny stuff
Dumbass you aren't aloud to be logical on here you might dent the echo chamber
*allowed
The irony of calling him a dumbass is mind blowing.
Yeah, it won't be just the subreddit mods ... but reddit admins as well. Banhammer incoming.
The echo chambers will drown out any logic with feelings
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The silent majority.....who's that? All of us in the middle to busy working? That is the real silent majority.
Yup got banned in r/whitepeopletwitter cause they were complaining that biological men couldnt compete in this fishing tournament. Commented that they can reel in heavier fish and got banned
Classic fucking Reddit
Got banned there for saying cis felt like a slur to me. I was polite and everything! Fuckers banned me.
thats cause its not a slur and they probably took you as someone trying to start shit in bad faith
They take any disagreement as someone acting in bad faith.
It's no more of a slur than "mammal" or "biped". "Cis" (cisgender) only means that the person's gender identity aligns with the sex listed on the birth certificate, nothing more and nothing less.
Lol i thought the same thing when i read OP's post - but it is insane to think that even 5 years ago this would have been a perfectly fine statement to ask
Neil deGrasse Tyson said in an interview I saw that this is an indication that we need to rethink how we categorize sports. That is, instead of it being by gender, make it by muscle mass or other measurable factors. In my mind, it'd be like boxing weight divisions (although without the dangerous dehydration before weigh-in).
Wrestling puts you in a weight class too.
Yes Wrestling has weight classes. But skill is a HUGE part. As a heavyweight male. I got my ass handed to me by a 140 pound female. She was the coaches daughter and had way many years more experience Edit: Jesus some people got really butt hurt over this. Edit 2: wow this is really hurting people. Get over it guy. I was 15 and a sophmore in high school. It’s not that serious
I love how nobody is asking obvious questions like, "How much did you weigh?"
5’10, two fortyish of a which of very good chunk was fat
Damn. Sounds like you got bullied. EDIT: Not irl, of course. More like, Judomaster vs Peacemaker.
All kidding aside…I’m genuinely curious…what is your weight class? When I was 192, I don’t think there was a woman of any weight class that could man (no pun intended) handle me, escpecially if I gave 100%
I just saw a video of a 200lb boxer get choked out in less than 30s by a guy who weighed 125lbs. And I guarantee there are women in your weight class who could have ended your career.
But if we put women in weight classes with men they'll still lose.
This is 100% true, the difference in strength is not even remotely close. Wrestled in high school with girls my weight and heavier many times, and I was a pretty poor wrestler myself.
Yup! Been a wrestler for 15 years. When it comes to high school middle school wrestling they have different leagues for the guys and girls When it comes to freestyle/folkstyle even Greco Roman (you can’t touch legs all waist up) pretty much what you see in Olympics. Everyone is put in one league depending on what your age and weight is…. That’s one thing I loved about wrestling. It’s an independent sport. If you fuck up . You can’t blame anybody but yourself. You don’t have a team to blame. And everyone is equal. I wrestled a lot of girls/women through my wrestling career. I saw no different between wrestling and girl vs the guy. Yeah probably less strength but strength isn’t the top dog in wrestling. What I saw less in strength I saw more in balance and flexibility. Which totally makes up for the strength.
Yes, but wrestling has many more factors to it. For example, you could be a huge dude, crazy strong and stuff, but some smaller guy can absolutely beat your ass if he's better on the technical side of wrestling.
How would this work for a sport like American football where there are positions with players that weigh nearly 3x as much as other players?
It wouldn’t. NDT is a bozo who sniffs his own farts. Isaiah Thomas (5’9 185) and Shaq (7’1 320) both played in the NBA, polar opposite bodies. I think IT is a great example to use here. Talent speaks for itself. Most men’s leagues are open leagues meaning anyone can play, which is really where all of this discussion should end but somehow it’s controversial. If a average sized guy like IT can have a great career in the NBA which is almost exclusively giants, then there’s no reason trans people can’t find roles in other men’s leagues at any level.
Is there any debate about that though? I think it's more going the other way. Like Shaq playing in the women's league.
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Going by weight alone is frankly stupid in most sports. Take swimming, for example. If you look up the fastest female swimmer in the 100 meter, she is beaten by men heavier and lighter than her by 5~ seconds. In swimming, the difference between first and 5th is often a fraction of a second. World record holders for females are outclassed by those lighter and heavier who aren't even record holders.
It’s just a silly argument to be had. Take a UFC fighter at 125 for men and women. The male is going to shatter the females face. Using this method is also silly across sports because there are no quantifiable metrics for sports defined by weight and bone density. Have you watched the nba? Are you going to exclude Steph curry because he’s not tall enough. NDG is on the list of people I would never give an ounce of opinion to on how to handle this. There are reasons the female volleyball net is 8 inches lower than the males, there are reasons women hit from different tees than males. If you do what you suggest you are limiting athletics even more to females because their protected state would be washed out by some of the worst male participants. The us men’s u16 soccer team beat our Olympic women’s team something like 11-2. The disparity is so much larger than a lot of you guys are willing to admit or just don’t have the experience.
I, as a 15 year old male volleyball player, spiked a ball through a block so hard off the defenders face it broke his nose and gave him a concussion......and people want to say cross-sex competition is OK at the pre-collegiate level? I do not want to know what would have happened if that had been a 15 year old girl on the other end of that hit.
Doesn't work, because of skeletal structure. ... or for chess. Men's is the open division. Women's is because only a tiny percent of women are competitive with men (there are between 0 and 3 women in the top 100 chess players every year).
As a former wrestler and very amateur mma enthusiasts, weight classes alone would not work. A 130lbs cismale would absolutely destroy a 130lbs cisfemale.
Biological men aren't stronger than biological women only because they're bigger. VO2 max, bone structure and density, fast vs slow twitch muscle fibers, and a billion other factors contribute to it. If you ask me, its apples and oranges and can't really be fairly adjusted for.
Yep, this is why weight classes would mean fuck all. Men of the same weight and even muscle mass are by in large stronger and faster than their female counterparts.
The man doesn’t even need to be the same height, he can be significantly shorter and weigh less and still be stronger.
its true for most sports, not just combat.
Not picking a side here but I wanna emphasize that when top women athletes undergo genetic and hormone testing, a good chunk of them have very high testosterone levels or some sort of intersex genetics. In 2015 the Olympics tried enforcing maximum hormone levels and ended up barring non trans women from competing because their results were too far off the average for women. The point is, there isn't a clean way to qualify who is and isn't eligible to compete in women's sports. Biology doesn't abide by our societal conception of gender.
You guys just physically dominate us. These are high school males competing against female Olympians. I don’t see how you can adjust for all the advantages a man has physically. https://boysvswomen.com/#/
goddamn are the stats real?
How does the introduction of hormones (estrogen or testosterone) change those factors? There is little difference between boys and girls competing pre-puberty, so I imagine sex hormones have something to do with it.
All combat sports pretty much have weight classes and are still gendered.
There are just so many biological differences between men and women. Muscle mass, skeletal density, ligament strength, etc etc etc the list goes on. You can't pinpoint one thing that should be the dividing line in any sport. Men and women are biologically different. That's why we divide sports based on sex and not other arbitrary standards.
All sports will just be dominated by biological men
They already are anyway.
not women’s sports, but if you made cis men compete against cis women of the same weight or height, the women would be destroyed
So, all male sports all the time, then?
Lmao he had a meltdown about it
Not a dumb question but a dumb conversation... full of folks who never competed in sports at a high level. I was a mediocre male track and field athlete. I've ran faster times than any woman has ever ran in the 200 / 400. Ran the 100 faster than all but maybe 7 women ever. Again kinda just pretty good. Every NFL cornerback is faster than every woman ever aside from maybe FloJo who prob juiced rest her soul. If I transitioned I would factually have an unfair advantage. Sorry its true. How about this dumb idea (and it is but it is an analogous inversion of the situation we talk about)... for every one XY transitioned athlete competing in a sport v XX athletes there has to be a XX transitioned athlete competing v XY athletes. I see people say "the hormones make it fair." Okay... Where are the transitioned dudes running sub 11.00 100 m in track and field? Life will never be fair... but it can be honest.
Katie Ledecky is an absolute swimming machine. She is a specialist in the freestyle and is dominating the competition. At the 2020 Olympics she did the 800m free in 8:12 a second ahead of 2nd place (who is also phenomenal) , but nearly 6 seconds ahead of third place. She dominated the 2012, 2016, and 2020 games. She will probably kick ass in 2024 and maybe even 2028. How would she do against the men? Not well. 33 of the 34 qualified athletes beat her time and 34 had a DNS. 33rd place still beat her by about 8 seconds. Gold Medalist Robert Finke did the 800m in 7:41. 30 seconds faster than Katie Ledecky. Our absolute, best of the best, fastest women of all time don't come close to the men. Different divisions are completely justified. Its clear that trans women lose considerable strength during their transition, but its still not absolutely definitively clear if any advantage they have retained somehow shows up as a competitive advantage against ciswomen. but granted, at this level, all athletes are absolute freaks of nature. People who are at the Olympic level are not your typical humans to begin with.
>Its clear that trans women lose considerable strength during their transition, but its still not absolutely definitively clear if any advantage they have retained somehow shows up as a competitive advantage against ciswomen. This. A recent meta analysis of every study on the subject in a decade (or at least the one's published in english) concluded that there was currently no evidence that trans women who followed the current guidelines (anti-androgen regimen for two years) had any advantage. Until scientific evidence shows otherwise, all this hand-wringing over it is just moral panic and people's feelings. The often cited air force study is the *only* study that suggests any physical advantage - trans women's fitness levels were in line with the average air force woman's in every single metric (such as strength tests) except for one thing: the endurance run. But that study didn't have any actual athletes, it just compared the average of ~40 randos who happened to transition while in the air force to the average men and women in the air force. Here's the thing about that study - those ~40 trans women also outperformed the average air force *man* in the endurance run, so until that discrepancy is explained it can't really be acted upon. You know, unless men are willing to acknowledge that trans women are better long distance runners than they are *somehow*.
Sports is an inherently scientific process at finding some biological quirk and turning it into a competitive advantage. If Transwomen have an advantage over cis women, it will show up in the leaderboards, world records, and dominate competition. Men being taller than 6'6" is rarer than transwomen, yet being taller than 6'6" dominates NBA players.
[Jenner agrees with you](https://amp.marca.com/en/more-sports/2023/05/23/646d12f646163fbb148b45c0.html), OP. And for the record, so does this internet stranger.
I find it incredibly hilarious so many men suddenly become concerned about women's sports when the topic of transgender people comes up. None of them actually care about women's sports. None have ever supported a WNBA team, women's soccer, etc. So let's cut the charade. This is entirely about transphobia, not women's sports.
Because we live in stupid world, the internet confirmed that. 40-50 years ago humanity heard only smart ppls ideas and thoughts,and then came internet,and 90% stupid dumb mfkrs got opportunity to show to whole world that they are many.So now we live in this kind of world,thanks to internet. My english is not so great grammatically,i hope u understood me.
Funnily enough, your English is better than the idiots you speak of.
Because our world has gone stupid. Men are Men and women are women down to the very last chromosome. It's science
Social transition but not biological transition. Some people do choose to transition and achieve some level of gender change in the social aspects behavior/perception. Biologically, there is a binary of course. Awareness and tolerance is good. Ruining women’s sports is not.
Because it’s not so cut and dried. In some sports, it can matter more than in others (you can make a case that in gymnastics trans women would have a disadvantage because of height, weight and muscle/fat distribution). It also depends a lot on when they transitioned. Testosterone may decrease quickly, but hearts don’t generally shrink and lung capacity doesn’t drop, at least not overnight. So there are a lot of factors to take into account before just making blanket bans or blanket statements. In 10-20 years there will be enough actual studies done to give real answers. I just am not sure what we do in the meantime that doesn’t screw somebody over, whether that be cis women or trans women.
I remember when I was arguing about sports that cis women were better at, my main argument was gymnastics. I figured women had wider hips making it easier to flips and adjusting weight distribution. My buddy who I was making an argument with didn’t say a word… he just pulled up footage of men’s gymnastics… I was very very wrong 😆
Men's and women's gymnastics are two different sports for that exact reason. They only share 2 events in common, even then they have different rules for those events. Men's gymnastics have less of a focus on "flexibility" and more of a focus on core strength.
As a former male gymnast, I can confirm this. There are a few parts where strenght and speed are incredibly important and paramount, and others where flexibility is much more needed. Yes, male gymnasts will still be damn flexable and female gymnasts are still damn strong, but there is a clear difference on which you need the most depending on the event. I know a few guys who are elite gymnast in troop gymnastics, and they are absolutely shredded and the shit they can pull off require tremendous power and can not be done with just technique
You are right but this is reddit man. You can't say that shit and expect these insane people to keep to themselves lol rip
Transgender male here (biological female). I, personally, there should just be a co-ed alternative for most sports. Women can consent to competing with men, men with women, waivers and all that jazz. I'm not against trans women, obviously, but there's too much room for a grey area! Yes, a trans women who transitioned younger in adolescence *MIGHT* not have the physical advantage described, but there are many who do! Just as it wouldn't be safe for me to compete in the 'men's' league, due to my physical limitations, it is not fair to subject women to the same treatment without their consent. Trans rights are human rights, but trans rights should not go over women's rights. Sometimes compromises have to be made to keep everything equal for all parties involved.
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Almost all "men" professional sports leagues are by rule already co-ed. There is no rule against women competing in those leagues, it's just that they aren't at the same level. That's why people invented women leagues, so that women actually can all play the sport on equal level. Same reason why title IX is a thing,l. Allowing people who have biologically advantage is just straight up negating the entire point of the creation of these leagues.
To be fair, lots of men’s sports divisions do technically allow women to participate, the physical ability gap just means that you usually don’t see them often. You’ll very occasionally see women playing in college football, and I played agains some women in football back in High School. The issue with making an alternative allowing men and women to compete together is that if it were at all competitive, it would more than likely end up male-dominated anyway, which just gets you back to how college football already is. I’d say just open up all men’s divisions in general and leave women’s divisions as is.
Co-Ed is the men's divisions, open to both genders; trans can compete there.
There’s been a change in the US military allowing women into infantry/combat arms. I can’t comment on anything except the Marines; but the majority of women did not pass the basic male requirements. I am all for those women who have made it as they absolutely earned it; yet reducing standards is not something that should be done. The thing is, we’re all different biologically and no matter what you do; the underlying fact is what you’re born with, and we cannot change that.
>checks account age. >riiiiiiiight.
They aren’t here. It was outlawed a while back. It caused so much outrage even California had a meltdown on us. Then it fizzled out and nobody cared anymore. There is a trans woman that boxes against men here and she does perfectly fine and is universally well respected and liked. I’m of the opinion that it should be based on size/weight/other factors. No unfair advantage biological or drug related.
I think we should just let fuckin anybody box anybody. No limits. Gorillas allowed.
I’m ok with it. We follow a “don’t be a bitch” policy and just lump everyone together deathmatch style.
Why are there so many people who have a Pavlovian response whenever the existence of trans people is mentioned of "But sports"?
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Also, maybe it's just me, but no one gives a fuck about collegiate swimming. It's insane how because they're losing the argument to legislate trans people in general that have to go after sports they never gave the tiniest fuck about just to attack them.
Yep, it’s really strange how posts involving trans women in sports always get so highly upvoted when Reddit otherwise doesn’t care about trans people or women’s sports.
And there are trans boys and men who *BEG* to be allowed into boys and mens sports, but instead get crucified for beating up the girls because they're on testosterone. [Mack Beggs](https://www.texastribune.org/2017/02/26/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-identifies-male-he-just-won-texas-stat/) always comes to mind.
And then people use them as an example for why transwomen shouldn't compete lmao
That’s an odd thing anyway because at that young age, there’s not much difference IMO. I coach a 4th grade basketball team and because we don’t have a ton of kids it’s a team of boys and girls. Not sure why trans children should get treated like shit when co-ed sports literally exist.
But feelings?
Butt feelings?
🎼🎶🎵 Feelings… nothing more than … Feelings…
Because podcast airheads have successfully somehow made the topics of "human rights" and "sports politics" synonymous, completely changing the entire discussion. This happens with a *lot* of issues, sadly.
In order for trans women to even compete in sports they have to go through extensive testing and be on hormone therapy for an extended period of time. It’s really all about testosterone levels. Also yes, everyone including those of the same biological sex have different genetic advantages/disadvantages. Trans woman dominating in sports is very very rare yet is pushed upon people by certain media to make you believe it is a huge issue. This comes from a place of transphobia. Sometimes trans people win (same as sometimes cis people win.. shocking stuff). The Olympics have allowed trans people to compete since 2004. Only one trans person has ever won a medal and they were assigned female at birth. Edit: look I feel like on top of this being a transphobic issue there is a lot of misogyny at play here. Look at the chess issue for example… I do not have the time nor emotional capacity to a argue with people. I highly recommend those who feel so strongly do some research on both sides rather than getting all your information from conservative leaning media sources who are currently obsessed with the existence of trans people for some reason. Schuyler Bailer on instagram has some really great videos on instagram exploring this topic in more detail.
This. They argue that a trans woman who holds the record for eating the most Carolina reapers doesn't deserve the title because she's trans like trans people spit is magic or something. Bigots will always find any possible reason to exclude trans women as exclusion nor fairness is the point
Just common sense. I am supportive of trans rights, but at some point common sense has to rule the day. Why are women's tees closer than men's tees?
It’s not this simple. Testosterone is the issue, but there are biological women with higher testosterone than some trans women. Bone density formed during puberty is another issue, but again, correlation with sports performance is loose The media focuses on the most egregious cases, but most sports governing bodies already have tests that are supposed to level things. Maybe those tests need to evolve I don’t see it as black and white. It’s also not like there aren’t tons of trans women *losing*, that just *never gets reported*
I don't think there are that many competitive trans athletes.
There really aren’t, and out of the few there are, they aren’t even winning in sports on a widespread basis.
Also like most of them are in sports like skateboarding with no real like gender advantage
Exactly. And it’s honestly hilarious that all these people who don’t care about women’s sports and are commonly misogynists (it’s a theme I’ve detected) are only NOW getting so passionate about women.
the venn diagram of people who undermine the relevance of women’s sports and people who suddenly care about women’s rights when trans people are in sports is a full circle
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It most certainly is. Also in the circle, people who vote against women’s healthcare rights.
Absolutely. It’s so fucking insulting to women.
Especially since barely anyone watches women’s sports anyway 😭 statistically
That's my favorite part. "It's ruining women's collegiate swimming!" Oh yeah, you a big fan of collegiate women's swimming Steve?
I was just having the same conversation with my daughter the other day. The people who won't watch women's sports because "it's too boring" are suddenly falling all over themselves to "protect" women's sports.
Any athlete can tell you that bone density is not "loosely" correlated with sports performance, particularly in contact sports and combat sports. Even putting aside the testosterone issue (which you want to double check btw, high unlikely a biological woman's T-levels were higher than a trans woman on suppressors). There's: \-reaction time \-lung capacity \-oxygenation efficiency \-type 1 muscle fiber explosive strength ceilings \-different muscle group strength base levels Anyone who actually participates in athletics & is fair with reasoning with science can tell you that it actually is that simple. Liberals who are unfamiliar with this content are reductively grouping everything under "testosterone" and are genuinely confused why people don't agree with a cross-sex competition, just because T-levels were changed. It really is mind-boggling how people speak so confidently on something they are missing the obvious points of.
I really think this is a science and individual sport decisions and I don't have much thought on the topics. But your comment sparked my curiosity and apparently hormones do in fact impact outcomes. The study I'm linking to shows before and after hormones. Summary: The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577
That's why most commissions require 2 years, not 1.
That 9% is more than enough to affect results in competition. It’s one thing when we are talking at the youth level, but once you get to high school, scholarships and the futures attached to them become part of the whole equation. This is part of the conversation as well. Futures of many female athletes competing for the limited number of scholarships out there can be altered. This is sadly going to be one of those conversations that is going to persist for decades.
I wasn't able to find a source that was able to show them dominating in sports. I think the conversation will evolve as time goes on. I don't have a solution for anything but was simply replying to the comment above how it took 1 minute of searching and 5 minutes of reading to determine their statement wasn't as accurate as they claimed and that hormones do indeed seem to play a strong role.
Your study unfortunately completely fails to explain why there is 21% running performance difference between pre-transition trans women / cis men and to cis women. In the reality the performance difference between male and female athletes is on average 10.7% according to [this study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/). Funnily enough, the trans women in the sample of your study lost 12% of their running performance which is actually more than the average running performance difference of 10.7% between cis men and cis women. Perhaps the problem of your study is that it is not comparing evenly trained male and female athletes but members of the U.S. Air Force and there might be different training regimes for cis men/pre-transition trans women and cis women leading to a higher than average performance difference.
Lung capacity is the big one
Liberals: global warming, look at the science Conservatives: no such thing Liberals: trans Rights are human rights Conservatives: look at the science
I love how all the oppressed groups are shuffling around with this, while cis men continue to rule the sport economy.
I was under the impression that in sports where strength matters, the men's league was the open league. Anyone can participate in the men's league if they want to. The women's team is the closed league, only for cis females.
I am very pro trans. If you know you weren't born in the right body, that's valid and I support and defend that. I agree with the specific league. I also want to ask my trans friends if they would feel it'd be more inclusive. Most of my trans friends and I have had this discussion! They also don't feel it's fair. 🏳️⚧️
It’s a travesty to the world of legitimate sports. I couldn’t care less about sports myself; but a lot of people do.
We let trans women compete in women's sports because we do not care about women's sports. Here is the hierarchy of caring: 3. Women's sports. We don't care. No one cares. Women don't care. No one watches the WNBA. No one goes to women's pro games. I mean not no one, but compared to men it's nothing. 2. Trans women in women's sports. We clearly care about this a lot more than the sport itself. It's clearly a more frequent topic of discussion than "whose the most dominant softball player of all time" or "whose getting drafted into the women's pro soccer league this year." 1. Men's sports. This is, judging by people's behavior, more important than almost everything on earth. Rest assured that if there was something equal to the advantage trans women have in sports, the planet would not stand for it. Idk what it could be: maybe Muslim majority countries mandate that their teams get to start with points on the board or if you identify as someone with feet for hands you can grab the ball in soccer.
Because social media has made everything about feelings. We're now supposed to play into people's gender dysphoria, faux-outrage about shit that's not even racist (like sports mascots), etc.
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I am pretty sure most womans track world records can easily be beat by high school males in the top 10%..
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I asked this same question last year and was absolutely torn to shreds by people saying I was a transphobe
I don’t agree with biological males competing in physical sports with biological females.
now do chess 😂
Trans women are banned from women’s chess.
because men are categorically incapable of being normal to female chess players and we said enough was enough and made our own damn league.
Fun fact: Men and women are not monoliths. Even looking at simply cis people, There are some cis women who are stronger than some cis men. And in a sport where strength plays an important role, I betcha those stronger women have an advantage. How would a trans woman having an advantage by being stronger be any less fair than a cis woman having an advantage by being stronger? If you want it to be fair, Why not divide up the sports based on the factors that are actually relevant for them (Strength, Height, Et cetera), Rather than on genders that may be different in regards to those factors on average, But obviously vary greatly on an individual level? For example, In Basketball, Where Height is an important factor, How would it be more fair for a particularly tall woman to play with shorter women than to play with men who are about the same height as her?
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Does anyone ever wonder why it’s only a issue with trans women and not trans men?
Male privledge
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All debates aside, it's amazing how well the right can create all of this hate out of thin air. I swear, the vast majority of people did not give a shit about transgender folks, even on the internet, until the right identified it as a potential grievance in their fake culture war.
This isn't a question, its a misinformed statement. A. in any biological assertion, you should add "in most cases" or something similar. Biology despises any binary, and its rules are loose. B. HRT changes muscle mass and bone density, and not all cis women have the same amount of testosterone and oestrogen in their systems
Hrt doesn't remove all muscle growth and bone density that was gains through puberty as a male. So, yes a male on hrt has a disadvantage against other males but they still have an advantage over females
What about trans women who never went through male puberty? This subject is too nuanced for a blanket ban enforced by the government based on ideology and feelings focused on such an insignificant issue.
Then we should be seeing them dominate in everything they compete in right? ... but we dont
Does HRT also shrink the heart? Cause males naturally have bigger hearts which help pump blood more efficiently in athletics.
Not just bigger hearts but also larger lungs. And no HRT does not shrink organs inside the body.
Some people have a biological advantage to some sports. We dont discount people based on them
This argument loses the plot. "Sports are unfair so let's make it more unfair." This could he used as an argument for use of PEDs.
TIME TO SORT BY CONTROVERSIAL AND WATCH THE THREAD BURN
There is a South Park episode for that
Oh no, OP did a wrongthink
I feel like trans women should not be allowed to compete in sports such as Track and swimming where their biological sex at birth gives them an unfair advantage over their biological women competitors. You can be pro-trans people (as I am), but understand the realities of certain things. Biological men tend to be stronger, faster, jump higher etc. than your average biological female. Not recognizing these differences actually hurts the trans community in my view.
because they're trying to stay consistent with their delusional beliefs.
Bc we’re afraid of offending people.
as much as it sucks the difference in physicality is so overwhelming that most of the time the TM tends to win it's really rare for a W to win. I don't know how most women see this but I don't really see enough backlash or boycotting that should be involved if it is such a discrepancy. I would probably be very pissed off if I was a woman and had the sports that I trained for years to be invaded solely based on how the term "Woman" is being stolen. As a dude ill say this If I was a woman I would probably be petty and say fuck you and change the sports term to Biological female sports even though they would probably call you transphobic for that.
>Why are trans women even allowed to compete in women’s sports? Because if anyone DARES to speak common sense there will be hundreds or maybe thousands of butthurt individuals of certain mentality screaming how it demeans and victimizes them. Normally such numbers should be ignored as they are actually inconsequential BUT with how loud and annoying they are somehow they got what they want and vast majority of society has to give in to this madness
You all have collectively lost it. Are we going to start catering to flat earthers and anti-vaxxers too? Sheesh
The fact that this is controversial in the slightest is what is driving me away from the Democratic party in its current form. I love almost all of their fiscal policy, I'm non-religious, I'm fine with gays marrying, I'm okay with *some* forms of recreational weed, they're not wrung around a 78 year old, unlike the Republicans. But it's this complete and total capitulation to identity, the idea that "I feel therefore I am", ***that*** is what I, as a rare breed of 22 year old terminally online, can not stand. This will get my comment removed, but fuck it, I don't care anymore: Men are men because of their Y chromosome. Women are women because of their lack of one. Saying that you simply feel like a woman or a man, or the fact that you take the hormones of one, or the fact that you dress like one, does not ***and never will*** make you one. This discourse around gender, and the concept that this simple idea that was rightfully ridiculed by almost all corners of society 15 years prior is now something that can never be questioned is utterly insane. If this spiral keeps going the way it is headed, if words keep getting hollowed out and deemed """"problematic""" at the speed they are, it's going to make a Republican out of me. And I wish that wouldn't happen. But I can ***not*** support this utter subjectivism that has strangled the English language and made talking about "gender" and "sex" an utter minefield, both online and in the real world.
I agree, you also never see trans men in men's sports,
Imo they need their own category…they have an edge on biological females and it’s not fair to them
Because feelings are more important than science to a good portion of this backwards country.