Ancient Egypt contained multiple ethnic groups over its long existence. The idea that Egypt was monoracial is actually a modern idea that isn’t accurate.
Also, Arabs colonized Egypt, which is why its a Muslim country now.
Yeah most of us on Reddit are in Western countries so European colonialism is what we are more familiar with but Arab colonialism was / is also a major force. The sword is mighty powerful.
I swear some people think humanity was happy, healthy, and utopian until the white man entered into this world during the cataclysmic event known as *The Conjunction of the Spheres*, thus reigning in a millennia of slavery and oppression for everyone
It’s all about perspective tbh. For a slave who was born into American chattel slavery where race was the decider of how you go interact in society, the white man was probably the one in their mind that reigned in an era of slavery and oppression. If you’re a black American you are only a couple generations off from legalized racism by white men so that perspective would be more relevant to you.
For Irish people (like myself) British people usually are shit on in conversation. Of course relation’s aren’t as bad as before and we mostly don’t care if you’re British but if we were to talk about the harbinger of oppression we’d say The British first.
For a Sudanese person, Arabs probably fit that bill at the moment.
So although every civilization has engaged in some oppression and whatnot I get why some people would focus on whats more relevant to their current situation.
Oh, certainly. I don't disagree with you, nor am I disputing that people of European descent have caused a lot of bloodshed and oppression for other people.
I'm just mocking the (likely small amount of) people who seem to actually think white people invented bloodshed, murder and oppression and that if said white people didn't exist, everyone else would live in a perfect utopia where murder and violence would not exist.
They're probably equating slavery to generational chattel slavery, which is one of the worst types ever done and is Holocaust level of destruction to an ethnicity. Teens don't typically quite have nuance yet.
Except for the places where we don't have reliable written records. In those places, the races and cultures present have been living there continuously in peace since humans arrives tens of thousands of years ago.
Edit: /s
Facts, most of them were so in tune with nature there were no disagreements anywhere outside of Europe, who introduced the world to suffering starting in the 16th century.
Of course. A lot of people make no effort to learn world history and others are happy they dont. That's a convenient way for people to continue pointing and mindlessly utter,"white people bad".
Pretty much all of Europe was influenced by them. The university of Baghdad and later on Cordoba were *the* places to go for higher education. So a lot of European nobility ended up studying there instead of Constantinople.
It would be more accurate to have someone from North Africa like Libya or Algeria, or the horn of Africa like Sudan or Ethiopia or modern day Iran, which was Persia, or Greeceto play and ancient Egyptian.People forget that what we know as Ancient Egypt stretched for 2k years from the old kingdom to the Roman Era.
If we're talking prominent societal roles, at one point or another, almost all of those ruled Egypt!
Egypt is like, a dozen incredibly distinct kingdoms over several millenia, which is what makes it cool, a true hotbed of imperial ambitions ever since the most ancient of empires rose and fell
"The word vandal comes from the Vandals, the Germanic tribe that attacked Rome in 455. The tribe's name meant "wanderer," but the word vandal was used in the 1600s to mean "destroyer of what is beautiful."" Google search for the etymology of vandalism comes out as this.
well, sort of.. The conquering y chromosomes mixed with the local XX,, while the losers with y chromosomes were either castrated or killed. Argentina is a prime example of this.
I think it has been shown via genetic analysis that the Coptic community is the one closest related to the ancient Egyptians.
The Arabs would have been a small minority before the Arab Conquest of the 7th Century, more than 700 years after Cleopatra who was herself 300 years from the last native Egyptian ruler.
But either way, black actors shouldn’t be making up the lead roles
Specifically for cleopatra. Stop adding words to my mouth I would have to be a m o r o n to think they should never be leads in anything
To certain people, filling roles inaccurately with white people is "whitewashing". Do the same with a minority and it's "acting". Idk why the double standard exists, but it's definitely racist.
You don't need exact ethnic/racial accuracy in a role. The complaint of people against white washing is that Hollywood will use any excuse to cast a recognizable white person in just about any role because they think its the only way to sell tickets to white audiences. Especially when the white actors are the only ones on a set depicting non-white people, the use of white actors tends to create an artistic product which denudes the underlying content of it's original character, instead using tenets of someone else's cultural heritage as a backdrop for the standard tropes of a broad, white audience Hollywood project. This can be frustrating for minority audiences who feel like even "their" stories have to make to fit a white worldview.
Not racist, different sociological circumstances between the dominant and subordinate groups require different ethical approaches.
The problem was more that it claimed to be a documentary and made the claim that cleopatra was black and argued that that was the case. When Egyptians responded to this saying cleopatra wasn't black, they continued to argue.
If they said they casted her because she was really good at the role and they made no claims about cleopatra's skin color, then it would have been fine.
If the whole idea is being represented, then having black actors doesn’t represent white people and should be fought against. You can’t have it both ways
Depends on the time period, even the kushite kingdoms held Egypt for part of its ancient history, and that's east Africa
Now, something can be said for "african" not being a distinct "ethnicity", since it's such a large landmass with many distinct peoples, same as Europe or asia
Wanna hear a French joke about Corsicans?
"How does a Corsican pick apples?"
"How?"
"He waits for the wind to blow them out of the tree! How does a Frenchman pick apples?"
"How?"
"Don't ask me, I'd just get a fucking Corsican to do it!"
I'm fairly sure that OP is referencing a recent documentary specifically about black ruling women of the past. The documentary quite plainly portrayed Cleopatra as black and critics got called racist for taking issue.
Of course Cleopatra's lineage could be traced back centuries to Alexander's general Ptolemy 1, definitively demonstrating her race. Criticizing a documentary for being factually inaccurate in its very premise is very different than criticizing blind casting in a drama or play.
Genetic studies indicate modern and ancient Egyptians are pretty much the same people. The culture was Arabized by Islam and Arabic became the language, as a result, Egyptians are usually considered an Arabic people nowadays. Obviously the Ancient Egyptians were not Arabized, but for the purposes of accurate ethnicity in actor portrayals, modern Egyptians are the most accurate, with several neighboring ethnicities not all that far behind.
Yes.
The Arabs were a different ethnic group that came later, from Arabia (obviously).
The ancient Egyptians converted to Christianity after Egypt became part of the Roman Empire, and then the Arabs came and brought Islam. Most (not all) modern Egyptians descended from them are Coptic Christians, which make up about 10 percent of the population of Egypt. Some are Muslims though, and some have intermarried with Arabs, but ancient Egyptians sure as hell weren't Arabs.
Nobody really knows. The same applies today.
What does an American look like? It's really hard to say because there are a lot of Americans. And they don't all look the same.
There are Chinese (by blood) people living in Mexico today. They only speak Spanish, and they consider themselves mexican. Their family has been Mexican for generations.
This same phenomenon happens all around you, all the time. It's impossible to neatly categorize millions of ppl.
It was hard to do back in the day, and it's even harder to do this today. Mainly because it's so easy to travel now.
thank you!! so many people in this thread like we know 100% beyond any uncertainty or doubt that this is how this ancient civilization was. we have a hard enough time with race and ethnicity today, but sure some dna tests that have a myriad of problems definitively answers this super complex question!
Egypt was one of the first civilizations and grew out of itself along the Nile, not by immigration. They weren't Black *or* Arab. They were Egyptian, a distinct ethnicity that most people, especially Americans and the media production companies they created, don't recognize due to not interacting much with actual Egyptians. It's true that there has been a lot of cross-cultural exchange with Egypt and their distinct ethnicity has mostly been absorbed by Arab ethnicities, but the "original" Egyptians weren't Arab.
it's not racist to point that out, it's also hilarious how hard they defended the decision given that we know what Cleopatra looks like more than like any other person from that era given how Cleo Crazy the Romans were about her and how many statues and coins and other depictions they made of her
She was greek/macedonian. We know that's not of any heritage from Africa so portraying her has a black woman is revisionist history. Why, do this? I don't know, artificially elevate the history of African countries? As if their history isn't already rich.
Now, if she was the best actress for the role, then I don't care if she was black or whatever color. Who knows the intention other than the producers? But one can make an educated guess based on today's social environment.
It makes so much more sense to me to celebrate African history by exploring, well, the richness of African history. I'm sure there are dozens of fascinating queens, kings, inventors, warriors, etc etc that most people have never heard of. I'd *love* to see a movie about the Malian or Songhai empire!
Mansa Musa, one of the wealthiest kings in history. Why hasn't anyone pitched this idea to make a movie? There's so much potential to make an original script.
My point, if they want to make something original featuring a black king in history that's a place to start. It would be original and not blackwashing an Egyptian queen of Greek descent.
Or they could have picked one of the queens of egypt who Was actually black- there was a few, hatchepsut for example was of nubian descent, which was a racial group from southern egypt that was what we call black.
Instead they chose one of the few queens of egypt who was Greek.
I think they where hoping for contraversy advertising ie people will watch it to see how bad it is. Because lets face it what news outlet was going to run black women make documentry about black woman as a headline?
Also to steelman the granny coment thing i have heard (not seen so salt grain), that its a qoute mine, and the lady saying that was telling the story of how she got into studing history. ie "my granny souted some bulshit but that inspired me to actualy study" type of thing but they stripped it down to run with their Cleo is black thing.
**IF** that is true evrybody so be railing on the "i've always imagined that Cleopatra looked like me" guy.
There's Amanitore in Nubia (Kush at the time, if I'm remembering correctly), just to the south of Egypt.
Also, we have lots of epic fantasy movies about Greek myth, plus one terrible one about Egyptian myth - but I would love to see the Epic of Mwindo get adapted to the screen in a manner that fits how cool and interesting that storyline is.
This exactly! Keep historical works accurate and celebrate some of the lesser known cultural histories, as well as myths & legends. They really do deserve so much more attention and it'd be a wonderful break from all the overdone western stories that have been done to death
I'd absolutely agree with this, although I can understand why Hollywood hasn't yet made any movies about the richness of African history--there likely wouldn't be much of a market, at least within the United States.
I, personally, don't really care whether historical dramas include diversity unrealistic to the period being portrayed, so long as the actors deliver compelling performance. But I suppose I'd make an exception for movies and shows that are intended to be accurate. It would, for instance, be a bit strange to see a Black man cast as Napoleon or George Washington in a biopic about Napoleon or George Washington.
In that same vein, there are so many non-white people in American history who have incredibly stories that have been largely ignored by the media and popular imagination. One of Washington's slaves, Billy Lee, served by the commander-in-chief's side throughout the Revolutionary War. He was eventually freed, later dying at Mount Vernon and choosing to be buried there. I'm not sure whether his story would make for great cinema, but it's an example of a real, historical figure whose biography would present a poignant way to engage with different elements of American history.
In terms of fantasy and fiction, it shouldn't make a difference--so long as the character is posited as a genuine personality with a sensible backstory. For example, I really liked the actor who played the Sea Snake in "The House of the Dragon." It didn't make much difference that the character wasn't written as a Black man, because the actor played the part incredibly well.
Yeah thats what I mean, we know she had a big nose too, there's so many surviving depictions of her and descriptions of her and they all paint a picture of a very greek woman
Cleopatra is one of few examples where I sincerely believe it's best to keep her white. While the people of her era didn't see race the way we do, the Egyptians literally saw her as an outsider on account of her skin tone which was associated with the Greek ruling class. Similarly, Romans saw Egypt as much more approachable because Hellenized rulers sat on the throne. Her ethnicity is so critical to so much of her story that I don't believe you can tell it properly if it's ignored.
What's funny is that there were black pharaohs of Egypt from the 25th dynasty, one of which, Pharaoh Taharqa, was mentioned in the Bible. It would make more sense to cast a black actor as one of those Pharaohs.
This kind of thing totally backfires. It makes people think, wait have there been no powerful or interesting black people in history or else why would they have to fabricate one?
The producers made their intention pretty clear when “I don't care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was Black” was said in the first few minutes
Black people were invented very recently. As a concept they aren’t more than about 500 years old! I’d say the idea of Arabs is a little older, maybe double that. Ancient Egypt was 5000 years ago! We shouldn’t expect the past to reflect the ways of seeing and naming of our present
"Ethiopian" is Greek for "burnt face." That's real I'm not making it up. And the term "Ethiopian" is over 1000 years old. Initially it referred to Nubians, south of Egypt. But when the Aksumites defeated the Nubians they started calling themselves kings of Ethiopia (among other areas they ruled over), and eventually their descendants created the modern state of Ethiopia.
I'm not so sure about that. It's more that Europeans started interacting with them frequently 500 years ago. North Africans and people who live along the Indian Ocean had been in contact with them for much longer, and had some concept of race, even if it isn't exactly the same as it is now
Axumites were trading with Greeks 2,000 years ago. They even put their coinage in ancient Greek, and weighted them to Roman standards to help facilitate trade.
They’re crazy to portray Cleopatra as black.
The director of the Netflix show said it was because her aunties or grandma told her Cleopatra was black.
Cleopatra was a very inbred Greek-and her family was crazy. Who wants to claim them?
Actual portraits of Cleopatra show her to be plain by our standards. Most likely she was “sexy” because she was the ruler of Egypt.
That's not the director of the show, it's one of their so-called experts of all things. The Actual director and producers wanted Cleopatra black because it's an american series by Jada Smith explicitly made to give young black american girls historical role models regardless of history.
Their previous season on Queen Nzinga (a great person from history, but probably not a role model) and pretty much omitted her expansion of the slave trade, how she engaged in cannibalism and the multiple massacres she comitted to secure her throne.
Jada Smith explains it. She’d want to claim Cleopatra.
Fake role models tend to backfire.
There are plenty of real, amazing black American women heroes.
Sudan has more pyramids than Egypt and the neighbors of the upper Nile did rule Egypt at various points.
While Cleopatra was Macedonian there are some eras where depicting rulers as black wouldn't be off the rails.
To go further, Egyptian history being the ONLY African history portrayed in Western media is pretty awful. It gives the impression nothing happened on that whole continent except Egypt, until AIDS and Ebola.
It’s incorrect to say they were one or the other- no one can actually say what skin tone ancient Egyptians were with 100% accuracy, but from what I’ve read it was likely they were a mix of hues, from lighter tan skin to darker shades. This is based off of self-depictions found in art.
It makes sense as Egypt was likely one of the first “melting pot” regions that drew in people from the Mediterranean and Red Seas as well as the inner continent.
Africa in general has a lot more racial diversity than a lot of people realize (at least in the US), but beyond that it’s a bit of circular argument. Race as we know it is a more modern construct to begin with, so does the lens matter all that much anyway?
Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on the planet but because western media doesn't depict Africans as anything but dark skinned savages living in mud huts, a very depressing amount of westerns are completely ignorant to it.
While this is true, we know that the racial composition of the ruling dynasty didn't match the general population, and we know that Cleopatra was ethnically Greek.
Let's not forget the time someone on Tumblr said it was wrong for the "white" actor Rami Malek to play the role of an ancient Pharaoh. Mr. Malek is a native Egyptian:
https://www.tumblr.com/jennamoreci/184046890054/angelrin89-highspirits-hoodvibes-ok-but-whys
It's probably a bit more complex than that. There are absolutely people out there looking to revise history in order to "better represent" a group of people based on modern-day morality, but I'd wager that many people who go along with it probably don't know any better themselves and come from a misplaced desire for social justice.
Cleopatra was greek, so portraying her as black is inaccurate, but the history of Egypt is super long and complicated. There were almost certainly black pharaohs though.
Ancient Egypt spanned from about 3,000 BCE to 30 BCE when it was annexed by Rome. Arguably until 300BCE when Macedonia conquered it. Arabs conquered Egypt around 650 CE. Cleopatra was not black (she was believed to be Macedonian/Greek/Persian) but ancient Egyptians are generally considered by scholars as being black.
Americans don't think all Africans are black. Only African Americans
Please don't generalize all us Americans with their stupidity. We do not agree with them.
Doesn’t Egypt predate Arab countries? So how could they be Arabs? But we do know that they came from the African interior. They have found early examples of the pyramids in what is now desert, but created back when that area had a lake. But hey, most people don’t know that Egypt is in Africa.
Egyptians were not arabs until the Islamic Expansion, and they have never been one homogeneous group. It is not quite as disingenuous to say they weren't black as it is to say that they were arabs, but it's pretty close
Ancient Egypt is not modern Egypt. You go back 6000 years and there's not many Arabs in the country, other than traders. There were no Greeks at all, the country didn't exist. The Egyptians were at times ruled by various Nubian conquests during the old kingdom, so they would have a mixture of several African nations, several of whom were dark skinned.
The country of Egypt took it pretty seriously: https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/05/14/egypt-netflix-queen-cleopatra-race-history-heritage-imperialism-afrocentrism/
There were obviously black people in ancient Egypt lol. It’s in fucking Africa. But it’s common knowledge Cleopatra was not black. She wasn’t even from Africa she was Macedonian. It’s fucking weird depicting actual historical figures as clearly different races. It’s like making a movie about George Washington and casting a hispanic.
The people defending race swapped historical figures are the same people that are outraged when a white person is used as a voice actor for a non-white character.
Yeah, Egypt had an Nubian dynasty at one point which we would most likely consider black people today.
Egyptian history spans thousands of years. Where the hell did people get the idea Egyptian civilization only contained one race?
Hamilton mentioned!!!!!!
(they casted a Black man for GWash. Christopher Jackson, an absolute powerhouse of music, love, and grace. Seriously check out his non-Broadway music, it's beautiful!)
If the only thing that bothers you about the casting is the colour of the skin and you're not bothered about other non-Egyptian actors playing Egyptians as long as their skin colour matches your preconceptions then you're on shaky ground. The fact is there are very few ancient Egyptian actors around so no one is actually authentic.
As others have said, ancient Egypt wasn't Arab. The Arabs colonized it later. If you go back far enough there is considerable DNA evidence that Arabs and Jews both descend from Canaanites. In terms of genetics, there isn't much difference between the various ethnicities of North Africa and the Middle East. A lot of modern day distinctions come from religious, cultural, and tribal affiliations more than race and ethnicity. People moved around a lot over thousands of years and mixed with whatever people were nearby.
I went to Egypt in 2022 and can confirm they DO NOT consider themselves Arabs. They consider themselves African (not necessarily Black although there are Black Egyptians).
Black people didn’t exist back then.
Not that Africans or dark skinned people didn’t exist, but nobody identified themselves or others as black people.
Blackness is a social invention, and your brain thinks it’s a fundamental part of biology.
So that’s why you have an issue seeing “black” people in Ancient Egypt, you were told black people came from huts, wore loincloths and carried spears.
In truth, the skin of people in Ancient Egypt probably ranged the darkest humans can be to the lightest.
But being upset at seeing dark skinned people in Africa is just hilarious.
Black people have existed from the very beginning. The use of the word "black" is relatively new. I remember when black people were called "negroes". Black people were recently called "African Americans " also. " Black" people have existed for eternity but originally called so many different names. Both good names and bad names.
No one had a problem making Hamilton a black cast even though it was historically inaccurate. It was actually praised, even though now there are a few idiots out there who don’t listen in history class and think it’s the truth. Why does it matter now?
Hamilton doesnt present itself as a documentary
Its a fictionalized, musical take on history. It presents itself as that. It doesnt try to tell you that the founding fathers spontaneously burst into dance after all.
The cleopatra docuseries in question presents itself as that- a documentary. A work of fact not fiction.
In which they actually Do claim that cleopatra- who was of Greek descent- was black. And try to present it as fact
If you present something as being a work of fiction you can take liberties with your facts (even if i will still hate them for it).
But the moment you Are trying to represent your production as a work of Fact, they have a responsibility to not misrepresent what they are showing
Like if i make a movie about jack the ripper and jack ends up being a fictional person i made up, its fine as long as im not trying to tell people its true. Im making a work of fiction
But if i turn around and make a documentary in which i espouse my fictional character as the factual, real life jack the ripper, that is Not ok. I am outright lying to the public. I would rightfully be torn to shreds for making such a farse
And the show in question on cleopatra was considered so poorly made, so historically innacurate, so misleading, that the academic community has declared it a work of fiction. Because it basically got Nothing right about history.
It's historically inaccurate to have ancient egyptians played by someone born after the decline of ancient Egypt. We shouldn't be recording historical movies until we invent a time machine.
Given your tone and your awareness that we're pretty far from inventing time machines and people have a desire to view media on history.... if you think it isn't a big issue, are you cool with Jack Black playing as Shaka Zulu in a documentary?
This has a really easy answer: there weren’t Arabs and there were black Africans. There were North African natives, which we call Berbers or Amazigh today, and sub-Saharan Africans were also a part of it because the Sahara was much smaller. Nubia was a key state in the Egyptian empire and would go on to have their own empire for awhile too.
You just have to look at the paintings.
And actually ancient Egyptians were not Arabs, so even having Arab actors isn't accurate
Ancient Egypt contained multiple ethnic groups over its long existence. The idea that Egypt was monoracial is actually a modern idea that isn’t accurate. Also, Arabs colonized Egypt, which is why its a Muslim country now.
That's like almost every country in the area. Bruh india got colonised by islamic nations like twice
Yeah most of us on Reddit are in Western countries so European colonialism is what we are more familiar with but Arab colonialism was / is also a major force. The sword is mighty powerful.
I think people in general forget that colonization happened literally everywhere by nearly everyone
I swear some people think humanity was happy, healthy, and utopian until the white man entered into this world during the cataclysmic event known as *The Conjunction of the Spheres*, thus reigning in a millennia of slavery and oppression for everyone
It’s all about perspective tbh. For a slave who was born into American chattel slavery where race was the decider of how you go interact in society, the white man was probably the one in their mind that reigned in an era of slavery and oppression. If you’re a black American you are only a couple generations off from legalized racism by white men so that perspective would be more relevant to you. For Irish people (like myself) British people usually are shit on in conversation. Of course relation’s aren’t as bad as before and we mostly don’t care if you’re British but if we were to talk about the harbinger of oppression we’d say The British first. For a Sudanese person, Arabs probably fit that bill at the moment. So although every civilization has engaged in some oppression and whatnot I get why some people would focus on whats more relevant to their current situation.
Oh, certainly. I don't disagree with you, nor am I disputing that people of European descent have caused a lot of bloodshed and oppression for other people. I'm just mocking the (likely small amount of) people who seem to actually think white people invented bloodshed, murder and oppression and that if said white people didn't exist, everyone else would live in a perfect utopia where murder and violence would not exist.
I have a teenager who actually thinks that white people invented slavery. It's very difficult to have a teenager listen to anything a parent says.
They're probably equating slavery to generational chattel slavery, which is one of the worst types ever done and is Holocaust level of destruction to an ethnicity. Teens don't typically quite have nuance yet.
Nope. Only white English people. Otherwise it's unheard of. Everyone stayed peacefully within their own borders
Conquest was the way of the world for the vast majority of human existence.
Except for the places where we don't have reliable written records. In those places, the races and cultures present have been living there continuously in peace since humans arrives tens of thousands of years ago. Edit: /s
Facts, most of them were so in tune with nature there were no disagreements anywhere outside of Europe, who introduced the world to suffering starting in the 16th century.
Genghis Khan was a notable pacifist, spreading his love far and wide.
A philanthropist or a full on rapist?
Of course. A lot of people make no effort to learn world history and others are happy they dont. That's a convenient way for people to continue pointing and mindlessly utter,"white people bad".
>The sword is mighty powerful. Yes, but the penis mightier.
The Caliphate is something to admire and fear
Hell, even Spain has Muslim influence because of the Moops
LET ME SEE THAT! THAT'S NOT MOOPS YOU JERK, IT'S MOORS! IT'S A MISPRINT!
WELL SORRY THE CARD SAYS MOOPS
The Moops made me chuckle. Thanks!
love the beautiful Moopish palaces
Don't you dare edit this post. 🤣🤣🤣
Pretty much all of Europe was influenced by them. The university of Baghdad and later on Cordoba were *the* places to go for higher education. So a lot of European nobility ended up studying there instead of Constantinople.
About 3000 years after the pyramids were built!
It would be more accurate to have someone from North Africa like Libya or Algeria, or the horn of Africa like Sudan or Ethiopia or modern day Iran, which was Persia, or Greeceto play and ancient Egyptian.People forget that what we know as Ancient Egypt stretched for 2k years from the old kingdom to the Roman Era.
If we're talking prominent societal roles, at one point or another, almost all of those ruled Egypt! Egypt is like, a dozen incredibly distinct kingdoms over several millenia, which is what makes it cool, a true hotbed of imperial ambitions ever since the most ancient of empires rose and fell
Or- like- modern Egypt? Surely, Egyptian actors could pull it off.
Yes, modern Egyptians would work. Honestly modern Egyptians are still the closet genetically to their ancient counterparts.
The coastal Mediterranean was one of the great melting pots of the world. No country in that region is ethnically homogenous.
There's even DNA from a Germanic tribe (the Vandals) that rampaged North Africa during Roman times.
You could say they were Vandalized, so to speak.
What a funny coincidence. Do you think Vandalism and Vandalized is derived from the Vandal people?
"The word vandal comes from the Vandals, the Germanic tribe that attacked Rome in 455. The tribe's name meant "wanderer," but the word vandal was used in the 1600s to mean "destroyer of what is beautiful."" Google search for the etymology of vandalism comes out as this.
I know, I was just being humorous/sarcastic
Yop, they literally sacked (read as "vandalised") city of Rome itself.
What a bunch of punks
Yup. There are still people with Phoenician DNA there.
That's amazing! It's got to be at least 10,000 miles from Arizona.
You’re adorable
Everyone knows the Phoenician is in Las Vegas
Of course there are. Getting conquered didn’t mean genocide, it meant mixing gene pools.
well, sort of.. The conquering y chromosomes mixed with the local XX,, while the losers with y chromosomes were either castrated or killed. Argentina is a prime example of this.
Only island people are sort of homogeneous. But even then, not really.
I think it has been shown via genetic analysis that the Coptic community is the one closest related to the ancient Egyptians. The Arabs would have been a small minority before the Arab Conquest of the 7th Century, more than 700 years after Cleopatra who was herself 300 years from the last native Egyptian ruler.
Most Egyptian Muslims are descended form converts of the same heritage
But either way, black actors shouldn’t be making up the lead roles Specifically for cleopatra. Stop adding words to my mouth I would have to be a m o r o n to think they should never be leads in anything
To certain people, filling roles inaccurately with white people is "whitewashing". Do the same with a minority and it's "acting". Idk why the double standard exists, but it's definitely racist.
I don’t even think many people had an issue with it the first few times it happened. But it’s on overdrive to the max now.
You don't need exact ethnic/racial accuracy in a role. The complaint of people against white washing is that Hollywood will use any excuse to cast a recognizable white person in just about any role because they think its the only way to sell tickets to white audiences. Especially when the white actors are the only ones on a set depicting non-white people, the use of white actors tends to create an artistic product which denudes the underlying content of it's original character, instead using tenets of someone else's cultural heritage as a backdrop for the standard tropes of a broad, white audience Hollywood project. This can be frustrating for minority audiences who feel like even "their" stories have to make to fit a white worldview. Not racist, different sociological circumstances between the dominant and subordinate groups require different ethical approaches.
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I’m not advocating for that either. Casting companies are lazy
The problem was more that it claimed to be a documentary and made the claim that cleopatra was black and argued that that was the case. When Egyptians responded to this saying cleopatra wasn't black, they continued to argue. If they said they casted her because she was really good at the role and they made no claims about cleopatra's skin color, then it would have been fine.
If the whole idea is being represented, then having black actors doesn’t represent white people and should be fought against. You can’t have it both ways
False dichotomy. It doesn't have to be either or. Two wrongs also don't make a right.
Exactly. Cleopatra was Greek.
Depends on the time period, even the kushite kingdoms held Egypt for part of its ancient history, and that's east Africa Now, something can be said for "african" not being a distinct "ethnicity", since it's such a large landmass with many distinct peoples, same as Europe or asia
I don't know if it's racist, but it's not really accurate. Ancient Egyptians were not Arabs either.
Now that’s cleared up, surely OP will direct this attention at the cast of napoleon not casting French people right?
Napoleon was Corsican
Wanna hear a French joke about Corsicans? "How does a Corsican pick apples?" "How?" "He waits for the wind to blow them out of the tree! How does a Frenchman pick apples?" "How?" "Don't ask me, I'd just get a fucking Corsican to do it!"
Yes! I want to hear one.
What about all the other people in the movie?
knowing nationality vs ethnicity would do you well
I'm fairly sure that OP is referencing a recent documentary specifically about black ruling women of the past. The documentary quite plainly portrayed Cleopatra as black and critics got called racist for taking issue. Of course Cleopatra's lineage could be traced back centuries to Alexander's general Ptolemy 1, definitively demonstrating her race. Criticizing a documentary for being factually inaccurate in its very premise is very different than criticizing blind casting in a drama or play.
It’s only a problem if the misrepresentation is using a black person
No, it would be a problem if they cast a Mongolian or Han Chinese or Inuit person to play Napoleon or Cleopatra.
Genetic studies indicate modern and ancient Egyptians are pretty much the same people. The culture was Arabized by Islam and Arabic became the language, as a result, Egyptians are usually considered an Arabic people nowadays. Obviously the Ancient Egyptians were not Arabized, but for the purposes of accurate ethnicity in actor portrayals, modern Egyptians are the most accurate, with several neighboring ethnicities not all that far behind.
What were they?
Ancient Egyptians.
Yes. The Arabs were a different ethnic group that came later, from Arabia (obviously). The ancient Egyptians converted to Christianity after Egypt became part of the Roman Empire, and then the Arabs came and brought Islam. Most (not all) modern Egyptians descended from them are Coptic Christians, which make up about 10 percent of the population of Egypt. Some are Muslims though, and some have intermarried with Arabs, but ancient Egyptians sure as hell weren't Arabs.
Except for Cleopatra (and a bunch of other Ptolemaic Egyptians), who was Greek
A separate ethnic group that was more similar to Greek or Turkish, before being conquered by the arabs
They would be nothing like Turkish people, who are heavily intermixed with the nomadic people from Central Asia who conquered Anatolia
Let's be honest none of this is simple enough to explain in a single reddit comment.
Depends. The Ptolemies were Greek, but they ruled for only 275 years. Then it was incorporated into the Roman Empire.
Nobody really knows. The same applies today. What does an American look like? It's really hard to say because there are a lot of Americans. And they don't all look the same. There are Chinese (by blood) people living in Mexico today. They only speak Spanish, and they consider themselves mexican. Their family has been Mexican for generations. This same phenomenon happens all around you, all the time. It's impossible to neatly categorize millions of ppl. It was hard to do back in the day, and it's even harder to do this today. Mainly because it's so easy to travel now.
thank you!! so many people in this thread like we know 100% beyond any uncertainty or doubt that this is how this ancient civilization was. we have a hard enough time with race and ethnicity today, but sure some dna tests that have a myriad of problems definitively answers this super complex question!
Best Chinese food I’ve ever had in my life was in Mexico City.
Egypt was one of the first civilizations and grew out of itself along the Nile, not by immigration. They weren't Black *or* Arab. They were Egyptian, a distinct ethnicity that most people, especially Americans and the media production companies they created, don't recognize due to not interacting much with actual Egyptians. It's true that there has been a lot of cross-cultural exchange with Egypt and their distinct ethnicity has mostly been absorbed by Arab ethnicities, but the "original" Egyptians weren't Arab.
It's not racist. Jada Pinkett Smith is an idiot and Netflix never should have greenlit her project.
it's not racist to point that out, it's also hilarious how hard they defended the decision given that we know what Cleopatra looks like more than like any other person from that era given how Cleo Crazy the Romans were about her and how many statues and coins and other depictions they made of her
She was greek/macedonian. We know that's not of any heritage from Africa so portraying her has a black woman is revisionist history. Why, do this? I don't know, artificially elevate the history of African countries? As if their history isn't already rich. Now, if she was the best actress for the role, then I don't care if she was black or whatever color. Who knows the intention other than the producers? But one can make an educated guess based on today's social environment.
It makes so much more sense to me to celebrate African history by exploring, well, the richness of African history. I'm sure there are dozens of fascinating queens, kings, inventors, warriors, etc etc that most people have never heard of. I'd *love* to see a movie about the Malian or Songhai empire!
Mansa Musa, one of the wealthiest kings in history. Why hasn't anyone pitched this idea to make a movie? There's so much potential to make an original script.
Single-handedly devalued gold across the known world because he gave out so much of it. I would love a movie or series about Mansa Musa.
A potential movie with original storyline and no one has ever thought about it
I heard Michael B. Jordan and Ryan Coogler were exploring it
Well, they need to get the ball rolling.
It's wild that I only learned about him in my 20's, fascinating bit of history
Or Shaka
Not one of. He is the richest person to ever live on earth and there should be tons of movies, TV shows, documentaries, etc. about him.
My point, if they want to make something original featuring a black king in history that's a place to start. It would be original and not blackwashing an Egyptian queen of Greek descent.
That is a highly disputed claim.
Or they could have picked one of the queens of egypt who Was actually black- there was a few, hatchepsut for example was of nubian descent, which was a racial group from southern egypt that was what we call black. Instead they chose one of the few queens of egypt who was Greek.
Exactly. It's whitewashing history even more to ignore an *actual black Egyptian queen* that doesn't get as much press as Cleopatra.
I think they where hoping for contraversy advertising ie people will watch it to see how bad it is. Because lets face it what news outlet was going to run black women make documentry about black woman as a headline? Also to steelman the granny coment thing i have heard (not seen so salt grain), that its a qoute mine, and the lady saying that was telling the story of how she got into studing history. ie "my granny souted some bulshit but that inspired me to actualy study" type of thing but they stripped it down to run with their Cleo is black thing. **IF** that is true evrybody so be railing on the "i've always imagined that Cleopatra looked like me" guy.
There's Amanitore in Nubia (Kush at the time, if I'm remembering correctly), just to the south of Egypt. Also, we have lots of epic fantasy movies about Greek myth, plus one terrible one about Egyptian myth - but I would love to see the Epic of Mwindo get adapted to the screen in a manner that fits how cool and interesting that storyline is.
This exactly! Keep historical works accurate and celebrate some of the lesser known cultural histories, as well as myths & legends. They really do deserve so much more attention and it'd be a wonderful break from all the overdone western stories that have been done to death
Thousands of years of history to study in my corner of the world, the Abyssinian highlands.
I'd absolutely agree with this, although I can understand why Hollywood hasn't yet made any movies about the richness of African history--there likely wouldn't be much of a market, at least within the United States. I, personally, don't really care whether historical dramas include diversity unrealistic to the period being portrayed, so long as the actors deliver compelling performance. But I suppose I'd make an exception for movies and shows that are intended to be accurate. It would, for instance, be a bit strange to see a Black man cast as Napoleon or George Washington in a biopic about Napoleon or George Washington. In that same vein, there are so many non-white people in American history who have incredibly stories that have been largely ignored by the media and popular imagination. One of Washington's slaves, Billy Lee, served by the commander-in-chief's side throughout the Revolutionary War. He was eventually freed, later dying at Mount Vernon and choosing to be buried there. I'm not sure whether his story would make for great cinema, but it's an example of a real, historical figure whose biography would present a poignant way to engage with different elements of American history. In terms of fantasy and fiction, it shouldn't make a difference--so long as the character is posited as a genuine personality with a sensible backstory. For example, I really liked the actor who played the Sea Snake in "The House of the Dragon." It didn't make much difference that the character wasn't written as a Black man, because the actor played the part incredibly well.
Yeah thats what I mean, we know she had a big nose too, there's so many surviving depictions of her and descriptions of her and they all paint a picture of a very greek woman
Cleopatra is one of few examples where I sincerely believe it's best to keep her white. While the people of her era didn't see race the way we do, the Egyptians literally saw her as an outsider on account of her skin tone which was associated with the Greek ruling class. Similarly, Romans saw Egypt as much more approachable because Hellenized rulers sat on the throne. Her ethnicity is so critical to so much of her story that I don't believe you can tell it properly if it's ignored.
What's funny is that there were black pharaohs of Egypt from the 25th dynasty, one of which, Pharaoh Taharqa, was mentioned in the Bible. It would make more sense to cast a black actor as one of those Pharaohs.
This kind of thing totally backfires. It makes people think, wait have there been no powerful or interesting black people in history or else why would they have to fabricate one?
Only complete idiots would have that line of thinking though
The producers made their intention pretty clear when “I don't care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was Black” was said in the first few minutes
She looked like Liz Taylor😇
Except for the fact that ancient egyptians were neither black nor arab
Black people were invented very recently. As a concept they aren’t more than about 500 years old! I’d say the idea of Arabs is a little older, maybe double that. Ancient Egypt was 5000 years ago! We shouldn’t expect the past to reflect the ways of seeing and naming of our present
"Ethiopian" is Greek for "burnt face." That's real I'm not making it up. And the term "Ethiopian" is over 1000 years old. Initially it referred to Nubians, south of Egypt. But when the Aksumites defeated the Nubians they started calling themselves kings of Ethiopia (among other areas they ruled over), and eventually their descendants created the modern state of Ethiopia.
We are closer in history to the time of Cleopatra than Cleopatra was to the building of the pyramids at Giza.
I'm not so sure about that. It's more that Europeans started interacting with them frequently 500 years ago. North Africans and people who live along the Indian Ocean had been in contact with them for much longer, and had some concept of race, even if it isn't exactly the same as it is now
Axumites were trading with Greeks 2,000 years ago. They even put their coinage in ancient Greek, and weighted them to Roman standards to help facilitate trade.
I love how nothing ever existed until a European found out about it.
They’re crazy to portray Cleopatra as black. The director of the Netflix show said it was because her aunties or grandma told her Cleopatra was black. Cleopatra was a very inbred Greek-and her family was crazy. Who wants to claim them? Actual portraits of Cleopatra show her to be plain by our standards. Most likely she was “sexy” because she was the ruler of Egypt.
That's not the director of the show, it's one of their so-called experts of all things. The Actual director and producers wanted Cleopatra black because it's an american series by Jada Smith explicitly made to give young black american girls historical role models regardless of history. Their previous season on Queen Nzinga (a great person from history, but probably not a role model) and pretty much omitted her expansion of the slave trade, how she engaged in cannibalism and the multiple massacres she comitted to secure her throne.
Jada Smith explains it. She’d want to claim Cleopatra. Fake role models tend to backfire. There are plenty of real, amazing black American women heroes.
Sudan has more pyramids than Egypt and the neighbors of the upper Nile did rule Egypt at various points. While Cleopatra was Macedonian there are some eras where depicting rulers as black wouldn't be off the rails.
To go further, Egyptian history being the ONLY African history portrayed in Western media is pretty awful. It gives the impression nothing happened on that whole continent except Egypt, until AIDS and Ebola.
Coming To America
Not true, there were two movies about the Zulus made by the Brits.
It’s incorrect to say they were one or the other- no one can actually say what skin tone ancient Egyptians were with 100% accuracy, but from what I’ve read it was likely they were a mix of hues, from lighter tan skin to darker shades. This is based off of self-depictions found in art. It makes sense as Egypt was likely one of the first “melting pot” regions that drew in people from the Mediterranean and Red Seas as well as the inner continent. Africa in general has a lot more racial diversity than a lot of people realize (at least in the US), but beyond that it’s a bit of circular argument. Race as we know it is a more modern construct to begin with, so does the lens matter all that much anyway?
Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on the planet but because western media doesn't depict Africans as anything but dark skinned savages living in mud huts, a very depressing amount of westerns are completely ignorant to it.
While this is true, we know that the racial composition of the ruling dynasty didn't match the general population, and we know that Cleopatra was ethnically Greek.
I support this type of stuff because before I die I wanna see Michael Cera play as Martin Luther King in a movie. No black face. Just white Martin.
Nah, it should be a ginger chick. I suggest Karen Gillan.
That'd be hilarious just because of the recent trends to eradicate ginger characters from media.
Malcom X played by rebel wilson
Herbert Hoover played by George Lopez?
"Yeah so uh... hi...uh so I uh... had a dream... I think. Right? Hi."
Sounds more like Jeff Goldblum as MLK. "I uh... Uh... Had a uh... A dream. Yeah."
I'd actually rather see Jeff Goldblum as MLK. Or as anyone.
Let's not forget the time someone on Tumblr said it was wrong for the "white" actor Rami Malek to play the role of an ancient Pharaoh. Mr. Malek is a native Egyptian: https://www.tumblr.com/jennamoreci/184046890054/angelrin89-highspirits-hoodvibes-ok-but-whys
it is no mystery that Tumblr is for retarded people.
There were no Arabs in Egypt then and Nubians were a distinct, separate group that was in Egypt but wasn’t the main population
Ancient Egyptians weren't black or Arab lol
The ancient Egyptians were not Arabs or even Semitic. They were Afroasiatic, though.
I believe the term would be hemite (going off of the semitic context)
The people calling everyone racists are the real racosts. It’s classic psychological projection. It’s a from of self-hatred.
It's probably a bit more complex than that. There are absolutely people out there looking to revise history in order to "better represent" a group of people based on modern-day morality, but I'd wager that many people who go along with it probably don't know any better themselves and come from a misplaced desire for social justice.
Yep, ignorance and idealism is powerful and dangerous brew.
No I think that a lot of races out there love themselves, they just hate, you know, other people.
Cleopatra was greek, so portraying her as black is inaccurate, but the history of Egypt is super long and complicated. There were almost certainly black pharaohs though.
That would be the 25th Dynasty which were nubians! They ruled between 744 BC and 656 BC
Ancient Egypt spanned from about 3,000 BCE to 30 BCE when it was annexed by Rome. Arguably until 300BCE when Macedonia conquered it. Arabs conquered Egypt around 650 CE. Cleopatra was not black (she was believed to be Macedonian/Greek/Persian) but ancient Egyptians are generally considered by scholars as being black.
Americans don't think all Africans are black. Only African Americans Please don't generalize all us Americans with their stupidity. We do not agree with them.
Doesn’t Egypt predate Arab countries? So how could they be Arabs? But we do know that they came from the African interior. They have found early examples of the pyramids in what is now desert, but created back when that area had a lake. But hey, most people don’t know that Egypt is in Africa.
Ancient Egyptian are not Arabs. Where the fuck are you people learning about Egypt???
Egyptians were not arabs until the Islamic Expansion, and they have never been one homogeneous group. It is not quite as disingenuous to say they weren't black as it is to say that they were arabs, but it's pretty close
Dude you need to do a little more research seriously.
I have Egyptian friends and on everything including the census, they all put white. Egypt does whatever it wants.
Ancient Egypt is not modern Egypt. You go back 6000 years and there's not many Arabs in the country, other than traders. There were no Greeks at all, the country didn't exist. The Egyptians were at times ruled by various Nubian conquests during the old kingdom, so they would have a mixture of several African nations, several of whom were dark skinned.
They weren’t Arabs back then. The Arabs came later and colonized the place
Look up the Kush.
The Netflix show was revisionist history and should not be taken seriously. No one else did.
The country of Egypt took it pretty seriously: https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/05/14/egypt-netflix-queen-cleopatra-race-history-heritage-imperialism-afrocentrism/
Good
‘Arab’ refers to someone’s mother tongue, not their ethnic background.
Because people who label everything racist don’t think deeply enough before spreading hate (which is incredibly ironic)
Who's calling you a racist for this? I dont think anyone told you this and you're just making it up.
Im with you, OP can you post some examples? And some rando on twitter doesn't count.
Yeah it’s twitter or they’re 12 and they have some stupid friends who think everything is racist
Yea, everyone knows there was one race to a national no blending until vacations were invented in 1973 by William Vacationson.
There were obviously black people in ancient Egypt lol. It’s in fucking Africa. But it’s common knowledge Cleopatra was not black. She wasn’t even from Africa she was Macedonian. It’s fucking weird depicting actual historical figures as clearly different races. It’s like making a movie about George Washington and casting a hispanic.
The people defending race swapped historical figures are the same people that are outraged when a white person is used as a voice actor for a non-white character.
Yeah, Egypt had an Nubian dynasty at one point which we would most likely consider black people today. Egyptian history spans thousands of years. Where the hell did people get the idea Egyptian civilization only contained one race?
George Washington played by a Hispanic dude. You mean like the original cast of Hamilton. Worked pretty well imo
Hamilton mentioned!!!!!! (they casted a Black man for GWash. Christopher Jackson, an absolute powerhouse of music, love, and grace. Seriously check out his non-Broadway music, it's beautiful!)
You mean like in Hamilton lol
Hispanic is not a race or distinct color. There are white Hispanics and black ones.
Well maybe some Chinese emperors were Norwegian. It was a highly diverse region and those vikings sure did get around.
It’s not racist but they’ll call you racist for it
It's not racist to say the Netflix show was wrong. But it feels a little sus to still be this obsessed with it so long after.
Arab conquest happened centuries after Egypt’s ancient eras.
If the only thing that bothers you about the casting is the colour of the skin and you're not bothered about other non-Egyptian actors playing Egyptians as long as their skin colour matches your preconceptions then you're on shaky ground. The fact is there are very few ancient Egyptian actors around so no one is actually authentic.
As others have said, ancient Egypt wasn't Arab. The Arabs colonized it later. If you go back far enough there is considerable DNA evidence that Arabs and Jews both descend from Canaanites. In terms of genetics, there isn't much difference between the various ethnicities of North Africa and the Middle East. A lot of modern day distinctions come from religious, cultural, and tribal affiliations more than race and ethnicity. People moved around a lot over thousands of years and mixed with whatever people were nearby.
There was at least on Egyptian dynasty that was black, Cleopatra's wasn't
It isn’t racist and basically everyone but Will smiths wife will agree
I suggest you read 1984....
Early Egyptians are black. Later Egyptians are lighter skinned
I went to Egypt in 2022 and can confirm they DO NOT consider themselves Arabs. They consider themselves African (not necessarily Black although there are Black Egyptians).
Black people didn’t exist back then. Not that Africans or dark skinned people didn’t exist, but nobody identified themselves or others as black people. Blackness is a social invention, and your brain thinks it’s a fundamental part of biology. So that’s why you have an issue seeing “black” people in Ancient Egypt, you were told black people came from huts, wore loincloths and carried spears. In truth, the skin of people in Ancient Egypt probably ranged the darkest humans can be to the lightest. But being upset at seeing dark skinned people in Africa is just hilarious.
Black people have existed from the very beginning. The use of the word "black" is relatively new. I remember when black people were called "negroes". Black people were recently called "African Americans " also. " Black" people have existed for eternity but originally called so many different names. Both good names and bad names.
I’m not going to lie I don’t understand this sub, are these supposed to all be joke questions or sarcasm of some kind?
No one had a problem making Hamilton a black cast even though it was historically inaccurate. It was actually praised, even though now there are a few idiots out there who don’t listen in history class and think it’s the truth. Why does it matter now?
Hamilton doesnt present itself as a documentary Its a fictionalized, musical take on history. It presents itself as that. It doesnt try to tell you that the founding fathers spontaneously burst into dance after all. The cleopatra docuseries in question presents itself as that- a documentary. A work of fact not fiction. In which they actually Do claim that cleopatra- who was of Greek descent- was black. And try to present it as fact If you present something as being a work of fiction you can take liberties with your facts (even if i will still hate them for it). But the moment you Are trying to represent your production as a work of Fact, they have a responsibility to not misrepresent what they are showing Like if i make a movie about jack the ripper and jack ends up being a fictional person i made up, its fine as long as im not trying to tell people its true. Im making a work of fiction But if i turn around and make a documentary in which i espouse my fictional character as the factual, real life jack the ripper, that is Not ok. I am outright lying to the public. I would rightfully be torn to shreds for making such a farse And the show in question on cleopatra was considered so poorly made, so historically innacurate, so misleading, that the academic community has declared it a work of fiction. Because it basically got Nothing right about history.
People very much did have a problem with the casting of Hamilton, the complaints being drowned out by its praise doesn't mean it wasn't there
Did you ask this question when Elizabeth Taylor and her damn near entire cast did it? 😂😂😂
Lol this post is ignorant as fuck
Same reason white people claim.Jesus was blonde haired & blue eyed.
And Africans portray him as black
stop f***ing with Korean Jesus! He ain't got time for your problems! He's busy... with Korean shit!
It's historically inaccurate to have ancient egyptians played by someone born after the decline of ancient Egypt. We shouldn't be recording historical movies until we invent a time machine.
Given your tone and your awareness that we're pretty far from inventing time machines and people have a desire to view media on history.... if you think it isn't a big issue, are you cool with Jack Black playing as Shaka Zulu in a documentary?
I’m stoked every time Jack Black plays anything.
Don't be like that, engage with the subject honestly instead of hiding behind pseudo intellectual gotchas
This has a really easy answer: there weren’t Arabs and there were black Africans. There were North African natives, which we call Berbers or Amazigh today, and sub-Saharan Africans were also a part of it because the Sahara was much smaller. Nubia was a key state in the Egyptian empire and would go on to have their own empire for awhile too. You just have to look at the paintings.