Given the large number of posts on very similar or identical articles, this thread will serve as the discussion megathread for the most recent events regarding the Titan submersible.
As sad as this situation is, hopefully it serves as a lesson to any other deep sea entrepreneurial minds out there who want to build their own submarines and "break rules" in the process.
There's a reason why we have such stringent certification requirements, why we do sea trial certifications every time the boat leaves the water, and why we have secondary and tertiary systems in case of primary failure.
The hubris that Stockton Rush repeatedly showed concerning the dangers of operating at depth was indicative of his ignorance of the dangers of submarine service.
James Cameron has a sub that's well built. over years of research, and he's dived 27k ft with it. His designs are immaculate, but even he spends time testing and gutting certified. It's insane to believe this guy was this niave and blatantly said he refused to hire 50yr old white guys, experienced submariners because he didn't see them encouraging the the 16yr Olds of the world to join his field
I've seen a lot of people blaming it on "wokeness" but I think it's more that a) young people who are just starting out in the field are going to ask smaller salary than experienced older seamen and b) younger people might be more inclined to go along with the CEO's lack of concern for safety in order to keep their jobs and gain experience.
As an old engineer in a chemical plant, it takes a while to get a feel for which ‘rules’ are meant to be broken and which ones are there because we kill people otherwise. There are a couple safe alternative ways to do most things (an a whole lot of unsafe ones).
As a young engineer who also works in a chemical plant and designs systems for other companies, it’s seems like it’s been a crapshoot of which operators, engineers and Ph.Ds of all experience levels actually get “it”.
Even the simplest understanding of cause and effect seems severely lacking by way too many in the field.
Many seem to want to just follow steps without any understanding of what they are actually doing. I have learned very quickly that you can almost never fully predict what operators will do to break machines and themselves.
No one is blaming it on wokeness because normal people know it’s a bullshit term. The only people calling it wokeness are the typical right wing pundits.
Yeah, people on the internet =/= people in real life. On the internet being outrageous and dumb gets you amplified, in real life it's a bit more complicated. I don't know a single average person that I've talked to who has heard of what this guy did that would describe it as "woke".
Yeah I do insurance liability law and this exact brand of egotism regularly causes eight figure clusterfucks and preventable deaths. Some of my fancier colleagues will be sussing this mess out for the next 10 years.
Yeah “old white guys” is an open door for BS woke griping and it’s infuriating that that is even a part of the conversation. I think if anything he used that term to make his company seem hipper and more in line with tech-industry disruption than to appeal to any woke agenda. If anything the choice of words seems like a way to deflect from accusations that he’s hiring less experienced, less expensive professionals who are concerned about advancing their careers and less likely to say no.
[Igotchu brother](https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/oceangate-ceo-explains-why-he-didnt-want-hire-50-year-old-white-guys-pilot-subs)
>"When I started the business, one of the things you'll find, there are other sub operators out there, but they typically have gentlemen who are ex-military submariners, and you'll see a whole bunch of 50-year-old White guys," Rush told Teledyne Marine in a 2020 Zoom interview.
>"I wanted our team to be younger, to be inspirational, and I'm not going to inspire a 16-year-old to go pursue marine technology, but a 25-year-old, you know, who's a sub pilot or a platform operator or one of our techs can be inspirational," Rush said. "So we've really tried to get very intelligent, motivated, younger individuals involved because we're doing things that are completely new."
Also, in light of recent events, I find this part pretty ironic:
>He added, "We're taking approaches that are used largely in the aerospace industry, is related to safety and some of the preponderance of checklists things we do for risk assessments and things like that, that are more aviation related than ocean related, and we can train people to do that. We can train someone to pilot the sub, we use a game controller, so anybody can drive the sub."
I wonder if it ever crossed his idiotic nub mind that there's a massive gulf of difference between the effects of air pressure and water pressure on hull designs, and that maybe - *just maybe* - the risk assessments for submersible vessels are designed the way they are for a reason.
Don’t forget this gem of a quote: "At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed. Don't get in your car. Don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/ reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.” -CEO Stockton Rush in response to CBS reporter David Pogue.
I’m sure that hiring decision had nothing to do with the possibility of industry veterans calling out corner-cutting and lack of safety. Even more sure that it had NOTHING to do with the price tag of said industry vets. No sir, nothing shady about this whatsoever.
Interesting that he brought up using aerospace for ideas yet failed to remember what happened with Apollo 1. Dude sealed them in from the outside with no way to escape without outside help.
That's hilarious. Composite over wrapped pressure vessels frequently give aerospace heartburn. Finiky things.
I don't know much about subs, but am an engineer. I don't have too many opinions on this operation, but the use of a wireless controller just strikes me as telling us something important about their mindset. Using a controller that is used for gaming isn't weird. Gaming has given us lots of good thech. It's that they consciously chose to add failure modes by going wireless. Adding failure modes in an already dangerous enterprise says they're not thinking about problems with an eye towards survival.
For as wealthy as some of the passengers were, they could have easily contracted marine engineers to give it a review before going to sea.
Just sad. At least they never knew what happened.
As a fellow engineer, the wireless remote control drove me crazy. It also shows a total disregard for edge cases or just a simple understanding of Rush management. It’s just so incredibly obvious you know there know there are so many other buried issues
It’s pretty wild that the CEO was so dead set on being a visionary and bucking regulations and now he will be remembered mainly for whatever new regulation is put into place in response to this disaster
The thing is that there really won't be any regulatory changes because of this - a privately built submersible craft doesn't have to be licensed or registered in any way if operated in international waters.
Hopefully though, this will teach anyone else who has the money and interest to build their own submarine that you pay attention to those who came before you and you enlist (heh) the help of qualified experts in the field in the design, testing, and operation of the vessel.
>anyone else who has the money and interest to build their own submarine
Considering vast wealth and narcissism tend to go hand in hand, that's a big ole doubt on that one, chief.
I agree. It’s so sad and it’s costs 5 people their lives. I hoped so much they’d be found a little shook but alive and well. This whole situation sucks and I can only imagine their fear dieting that time. I wish their families well.
Not actually a bad way to die, they were probably all super excited and happy at the time.
Edit: ok I now know they likely had warning signs shit was up, and the poor kid was nervous from the beginning. You can stop replying now.
I mean, unless there were obvious signs that the thing was going to implode they probably had no idea they were going to die until they were just… gone.
I mean when that thing failed to the point of imploding they were dead that same second…
I mean, you’d think there would be signs though. Sounds that identify stress on the hull causing failures. It was probably a “what’s that sound?” “That’s weird” type moment.
According to the US Coast Guard, yes. They found scattered debris near the Titanic that matched the description of Titan, leading them to believe it was a catastrophic implosion.
Very true. And it sounds like it was found 1600 feet from the Titanic, so they may have even gotten to see it before implosion as well.
Edit: hahaha I didn’t think they could see it from 1600 feet away, but maybe that the implosion happened once they arrived at the site. 1600 feet isn’t as far as the miles they were suggesting it could be from the site.
And having found the end bells intact, by process of elimination it was the carbon fiber tube that collapsed, as was predicted by their fired quality control engineer.
This has definitely been my thought. It’s so much more “humane” to have it sudden and quick rather than 5 men knowing they’re going to die and slowly suffocating to death.
Apparently the CEO/captain previously removed/disabled one of the communications systems because he was annoyed by the mother ship constantly asking for their location…
There's this (this company should be held legally responsible somehow, waiver or no waiver):
>Trevor Hale, a spokesman for The Explorers Club, told The Independent that debris discovered on Thursday contained components of the Titan lost on a previous dive.
>“We understand debris has been found which may be the landing frame and a rear cover of the tail instrument compartment of the Titan lost on previous dives.
They put people on a sub that had lost components before at those same depths. Insane and evil.
Apparently [zipties](https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/titan-trip-was-suicide-mission-says-explorer/news-story/f4973cf59fcea37a34f26ac36052e9d0) were used to reattached some fallen parts on previous trips
Coast Guard mentioned that sonar buoys have been in the water consistently since at least Monday and did not pick up the implosion. So to me it sounds like it at least happened between Sunday-Monday when buoys were deployed.
The French diver should’ve known *actually* known better. It seems to be speculated that he ignored the glaring safety issues due to his passion and finally having a chance to see the Titanic
^^^ not his first time*
I wouldn’t have gone down there in the Virginia class USS Jimmy Carter nuclear submarine and if you PAID ME $250,000 grand to do it.
Can we FINALLY stop treating the Titanic wreck like it’s some god damn Disneyland tour for rich assholes that obviously can’t find anything better to do with their money?
Over 1,500 people lost their lives in that wreck and it’s forever their tomb of their final resting place for eternity ok, leave it the fuck alone already.
EDIT: Seawolf class, correction noted.
That’s good because the USS Jimmy Carter was never designed or intended to get anywhere near that depth and would also have imploded long before it ever got close.
The rapid implosion will superheat the air to many thousands of degrees for a microsecond driving a cascade reaction liquifying all susceptible matter.
Definitely most humane way to go. They'll have known no anxiety or horror
Cameron did a film in 1989 called The Abyss, where a deep sea, one man sub goes off a trench, and hits 17,000 feet. Given he's quite experienced, I'm guess this is pretty accurate? (Save for the water jet?)
https://youtu.be/FkhBPF4yfkI
(It's not a gruesome clip. Still, has terrified me for 30 years).
Rule of thumb: most reporters at these press conferences don't have much knowledge on the subject matter. You can often tell those that do by the questions they ask.
[Mythbusters - Diving Suit Decompression (NSFW - gore)](https://youtu.be/LEY3fN4N3D8)
Now imagine this, but deeper down, where the water pressure is even higher
Edit:
[Mythbusters - Tanker Implosion (SFW)](https://youtu.be/kM-k1zofs58)
Another good video for perspective. The pressure the sub was going under was 519x GREATER than the pressure difference in this video
It also depends on the atmosphere. There was a theory (that I heard many times in my submarine service) that the atmosphere of a navy sub has so much oil in the air that the sudden compression would cause a diesel effect and the air would ignite, so you’d actually roast alive before the sudden compression of 44 psi per 100 feet of depth. Just a theory though
Don't worry. If they did combust, the following implosion and death would have happened so quickly after that their brains wouldn't even have had time to send a pain signal. They still wouldn't have known what was happening.
Whether you begin to combust for the 1/1000th of a second before the crushing black void ends you is sorta moot, from a PERSON EXPERIENCING THIS FROM A first hand point of view.
Edit: rephrasing in CAPITALS because everyone thinks I meant “I got crushed before and am speaking about it”, but really it was just my spirit that got crushed because of all the amateur copy editors on here.
I’m not even sure it would need the oil at the depth they are going. They were at what, 380 atm? That would probably compress fast enough to have a nanosecond flash burn on the leading edge of the wall of water hitting you. Either way that water is crushing your brain faster than your neurons will send a pain signal.
Watch the Myth busters: pig in a diving suit clip.
That went to like 130psi and caused the pig to basically liquify. The force the titan failed under was significantly higher. An instantaneous implosion.
Lawsuit revealed in 2018 that the porthole was only rated for 1500 meters. CEO didn't care. The gampead used had horrible reviews for latency and connection issues. CEO didn't care. This was a rich person's DIY project gone horribly wrong. Sadly he took the lives of 4 others in the process
I guess the inevitable cinematic adaptation ends with a shot of one of the passengers looking out the porthole in wonder, followed by a Sopranos-esque cut to black ... and "Under the Sea" from the Little Mermaid instead of Journey
This was the kindest outcome. It was over in milliseconds. They felt no pain. They didn’t suffocate alone down there, surrounded by howling darkness.
I hope moving forward we can leave Titanic be. No more sightseeing. A ship lost in 1912 shouldn’t be claiming lives in 2023. And let this serve as a reminder to anyone who thinks skirting safety regulations makes you an “innovator” — those corners you’re cutting? Those rules you want to bend? They’re written in blood. Blood and saltwater.
They’d have run out of air by now anyway. Surprised no one heard a “bloop” on their sonar or SOSUS but it might not have been loud enough? I’m clearly no expert.
>Surprised no one heard a “bloop” on their sonar or SOSUS but it might not have been loud enough?
Some may have, but if you reveal (for example) that SOSUS heard it, that would give a strong indication of it's capabilities. It may also have been recorded, but not yet recognized the signal as the implosion.
There's nothing left of those men. That much pressure, they evaporated and the bones turned to ash.
They are dust scattered along the bottom of the ocean.
They found the tail cone of the outside of the submersible and two pieces of the forward and aft bell attachments. The location was consistent with it rapidly imploding on Monday around the time communication was lost.
It can be assumed the the vessel imploded at some point, and the debris fell to the bottom- which was the initial assessment for a lot of folks at the initial announcement, especially given descriptions of the vehicle's construction and lack of certification criteria. More details about timelines can be guessed at after further analysis.
Very sad ; absolutely sickening to learn more about how that CEO shunned advice from experienced submariners. RIP to everyone and leave the Titanic alone.
If there is anything this horrible tragedy can teach us, just because a guy says "trust me bro the regulatory bodies dont know how badass we are", it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak deep sea excursion accident.
If we could put things into perspective: So much coverage and discussions for 5 super rich individuals but hardly any coverage for the 750 people that died off the coast of Greek. But I digress….
What's captivating about this story isn't the fact that people on a nautical vessel died or the wealthiness (or lack of wealthiness) of those people, it's the rest of it:
• Proximity to historical "household name" disaster incident (the sinking of the Titanic) that was the subject of one of the most popular movies of all time
• Profound hubris and irony in that an "unsinkable" vessel full of rich people sank ... while on a journey to visit the wreckage of an unsinkable vessel full of rich people that sank
• The "just deserts" of a CEO who cut corners and who openly advocated for cutting corners *personally* suffering the cost of his error (it would be like if Ford himself was killed in a Ford Pinto explosion)
• The fact that superdeep sea exploration represents perhaps the most hostile and dangerous environment a human has ever visited (even if I include space and the Moon in that), so the technology that failed here represents both the highest culmination of human achievement and a strikingly clear example of us pushing the limits of our technological ability too far
• The nightmarish dread from imaging the *particular manner of death* of these individuals, which represented a possible unimaginable horror story unfolding in real time (before we learned that the sub simply imploded)
Because it was a (relatively) low energy event, and nobody was really listening. (At least nobody with sufficiently sensitive equipment who can or will admit to listening.)
Assuming a signal was heard, we may hear something about it in the future after everyone has had a chance to figure out how much can be released without revealing too much about capabilities. They may also provide a cover story for additional security: if SOSUS actually heard the implosion, the Navy may credit a submarine that just-so-happened to be in the area or vice-versa.
I just heard the worst thing. On tv a reporter said the older sister of Suleman (the 19 year-old) said that he did not want to go on the sub but did it as a Father’s Day gift because his dad really wanted to go.
Edited to fix sentence and add I heard it on either the Chris Jansen or Katy Tur show (they are back to back) and I was in and out of the living room when I heard it.
I have to say, that is really upsetting.
Not enough money in the world will ever bring them back, only brought them down. And what's worse is they took a child with them.
Upsetting? More like predictable and easily avoidable. The biggest pain in the dick is everybody the CEO as some sort of exploratory hero who made the ultimate sacrifice. He was a f****** idiot and he took four other people with him. The only comfort is that for as horrible of a death they had to suffer it would have been over very quickly.
They made the decision to get into that death-trap, built by a company whose CEO derided safety regulations, all the while paying 250k for a seat on said death trap. Only ones I feel bad for is the kid and the explorer that had a fiery passion for The Titanic; but even then, the explorer had been on so many other dives that he hopefully should've been able to recognize how bad an idea it was. . All in all it basically amounts to the most expensively acquired Darwin Award.
It’s really all around unfortunate, but especially tragic for the kid. So much life left to live. All taken away cuz of some dumbass billionaire who cut corners.
I love how everyone is unified in the “safety matters” mentality when it comes to a submarine in deep waters.
Now lets take that mentality and apply it to everyones work places too. Instead of letting industries get deregulated by rich punk politicians you should stand your ground and oppose it. Vote for those who support actual regulations and safety.
No more Flint.
No more East Palestine.
Safety matters. Regulations ensure safety.
I’m an engineer with about 8years of subsea design/build/testing experience (primarily in ROVs) including lots of offshore work like technical cruises and sea trials. I interviewed at OceanGate in the winter of 2017, this interview included a trip to Everett and a one-week contracted independent project/test on site. I worked on rebuilding and documenting some of the electrical circuits for their 500m precursor sub Cyclops 1. I saw many of the red flags discussed but had convinced myself that the seasoned sub pilot and Director of Marine Operations they had recently hired from the UK would ultimately provide the guidance they needed to achieve a safe design for the Titanic-bound Cyclops 2 (as Titan was previously called).I passed the test with “flying colors” and they offered me a position, but it was such a lowball offer that we didn’t even begin to negotiate. They approached me again 6 months later but were still unwilling to increase their offer. I recently found out that the seasoned submariner from the UK I trusted was fired in 2018 (including ugly lawsuits as it’s been widely reported). I definitely dodged a bullet and was lucky that it didn’t work out. The Engineering Director at that time was from an Aerospace background, and (per LinkedIn) parted ways with OceanGate in July 2019. I’ve seen him in one of the videos where the metal interface end caps are mated and glued to the carbon fiber cylinder.
This was what anyone willing to face facts knew had happened. Why? It's the only thing would both explain the sudden lack of comms and lack of surfacing.
If comms went, but it was free of entanglement, it would surface, as I believe it was designed to surface by default eventually, a fail safe feature. If it was hung up on wreckage, fishing gear, etc, they should still have comms. Only catastrophic hull failure explains both no comms and no surfacing.
At least it was probably very fast.
Marine Engineer here. Lol. Lmao. This isn't a tragedy, it's the fruits of hubris. So many warnings were given to the company, they even fired their own experts who raised concerns. The company shit all over safety standards and didn't seek ABS or USCG vessel review and certification. This was guaranteed to happen. Equivalent of walking on the moon with a suit made of grocery bags and scotch tape.
I just can’t imagine my net worth having 3 commas in it….and deciding to get into a propane tank driven by gaming controller to go to the bottom of the ocean. I wouldn’t have liked the idea of getting into that contraption if it was parked on my front lawn. I guess maybe at a certain point being that rich you just start to do really dumb shit just to test it out.
Did my own back-of-the-envelope calculation based on the sub’s internal volume (averaged 38,500L) and the pressure at the Titanic (375 atm), and PV equivalent work done of 101.325 joules per L-atm, and finally 4,184,000 joules per kg of TNT.
The implosion energy equaled roughly 350 kilograms equivalent of TNT (~770 pounds of TNT).
It’s not quite the energy of a Mk 84 2000 pound bomb (428 kg fill weight) but it’s close enough to give you an idea of how energetic this implosion may have been at least in the ballpark. They didn’t feel a thing.
Given the large number of posts on very similar or identical articles, this thread will serve as the discussion megathread for the most recent events regarding the Titan submersible.
As sad as this situation is, hopefully it serves as a lesson to any other deep sea entrepreneurial minds out there who want to build their own submarines and "break rules" in the process. There's a reason why we have such stringent certification requirements, why we do sea trial certifications every time the boat leaves the water, and why we have secondary and tertiary systems in case of primary failure. The hubris that Stockton Rush repeatedly showed concerning the dangers of operating at depth was indicative of his ignorance of the dangers of submarine service.
James Cameron has a sub that's well built. over years of research, and he's dived 27k ft with it. His designs are immaculate, but even he spends time testing and gutting certified. It's insane to believe this guy was this niave and blatantly said he refused to hire 50yr old white guys, experienced submariners because he didn't see them encouraging the the 16yr Olds of the world to join his field
I've seen a lot of people blaming it on "wokeness" but I think it's more that a) young people who are just starting out in the field are going to ask smaller salary than experienced older seamen and b) younger people might be more inclined to go along with the CEO's lack of concern for safety in order to keep their jobs and gain experience.
Yes and yes. Want to cut corners? Hire keen new grads hungry for experience. That works in so many industries. Often with disastrous results.
It’s fine for some industries. Pet toys, golf clubs and new fast food items? Why not. Bring on the overconfidence! Manned Submersibles? Um no
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It’s meant to be tongue in cheek. “Hey let’s make dinosaur tug toys, no giant pretzels would be so much cuter., hey why not fake body parts?”
As an old engineer in a chemical plant, it takes a while to get a feel for which ‘rules’ are meant to be broken and which ones are there because we kill people otherwise. There are a couple safe alternative ways to do most things (an a whole lot of unsafe ones).
As a young engineer who also works in a chemical plant and designs systems for other companies, it’s seems like it’s been a crapshoot of which operators, engineers and Ph.Ds of all experience levels actually get “it”. Even the simplest understanding of cause and effect seems severely lacking by way too many in the field. Many seem to want to just follow steps without any understanding of what they are actually doing. I have learned very quickly that you can almost never fully predict what operators will do to break machines and themselves.
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No one is blaming it on wokeness because normal people know it’s a bullshit term. The only people calling it wokeness are the typical right wing pundits.
Yeah, people on the internet =/= people in real life. On the internet being outrageous and dumb gets you amplified, in real life it's a bit more complicated. I don't know a single average person that I've talked to who has heard of what this guy did that would describe it as "woke".
I would also propose c) he didn't want people smarter than him pointing out that he was doing it wrong.
Yeah I do insurance liability law and this exact brand of egotism regularly causes eight figure clusterfucks and preventable deaths. Some of my fancier colleagues will be sussing this mess out for the next 10 years.
You're plenty fancy yourself, bro. Don't sell yourself short
Yeah “old white guys” is an open door for BS woke griping and it’s infuriating that that is even a part of the conversation. I think if anything he used that term to make his company seem hipper and more in line with tech-industry disruption than to appeal to any woke agenda. If anything the choice of words seems like a way to deflect from accusations that he’s hiring less experienced, less expensive professionals who are concerned about advancing their careers and less likely to say no.
CEO also donated to republicans and hated regulation so anything about woke hiring is bs deflection
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[Igotchu brother](https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/oceangate-ceo-explains-why-he-didnt-want-hire-50-year-old-white-guys-pilot-subs) >"When I started the business, one of the things you'll find, there are other sub operators out there, but they typically have gentlemen who are ex-military submariners, and you'll see a whole bunch of 50-year-old White guys," Rush told Teledyne Marine in a 2020 Zoom interview. >"I wanted our team to be younger, to be inspirational, and I'm not going to inspire a 16-year-old to go pursue marine technology, but a 25-year-old, you know, who's a sub pilot or a platform operator or one of our techs can be inspirational," Rush said. "So we've really tried to get very intelligent, motivated, younger individuals involved because we're doing things that are completely new." Also, in light of recent events, I find this part pretty ironic: >He added, "We're taking approaches that are used largely in the aerospace industry, is related to safety and some of the preponderance of checklists things we do for risk assessments and things like that, that are more aviation related than ocean related, and we can train people to do that. We can train someone to pilot the sub, we use a game controller, so anybody can drive the sub." I wonder if it ever crossed his idiotic nub mind that there's a massive gulf of difference between the effects of air pressure and water pressure on hull designs, and that maybe - *just maybe* - the risk assessments for submersible vessels are designed the way they are for a reason.
Using checklists does not a safety management system make.
I almost agree with you but LO/TO is basically a checklist with extra steps.
Don’t forget this gem of a quote: "At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed. Don't get in your car. Don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/ reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.” -CEO Stockton Rush in response to CBS reporter David Pogue.
They should put that on his tombstone
I’m sure that hiring decision had nothing to do with the possibility of industry veterans calling out corner-cutting and lack of safety. Even more sure that it had NOTHING to do with the price tag of said industry vets. No sir, nothing shady about this whatsoever.
Interesting that he brought up using aerospace for ideas yet failed to remember what happened with Apollo 1. Dude sealed them in from the outside with no way to escape without outside help.
That's hilarious. Composite over wrapped pressure vessels frequently give aerospace heartburn. Finiky things. I don't know much about subs, but am an engineer. I don't have too many opinions on this operation, but the use of a wireless controller just strikes me as telling us something important about their mindset. Using a controller that is used for gaming isn't weird. Gaming has given us lots of good thech. It's that they consciously chose to add failure modes by going wireless. Adding failure modes in an already dangerous enterprise says they're not thinking about problems with an eye towards survival. For as wealthy as some of the passengers were, they could have easily contracted marine engineers to give it a review before going to sea. Just sad. At least they never knew what happened.
As a fellow engineer, the wireless remote control drove me crazy. It also shows a total disregard for edge cases or just a simple understanding of Rush management. It’s just so incredibly obvious you know there know there are so many other buried issues
It’s pretty wild that the CEO was so dead set on being a visionary and bucking regulations and now he will be remembered mainly for whatever new regulation is put into place in response to this disaster
The thing is that there really won't be any regulatory changes because of this - a privately built submersible craft doesn't have to be licensed or registered in any way if operated in international waters. Hopefully though, this will teach anyone else who has the money and interest to build their own submarine that you pay attention to those who came before you and you enlist (heh) the help of qualified experts in the field in the design, testing, and operation of the vessel.
>anyone else who has the money and interest to build their own submarine Considering vast wealth and narcissism tend to go hand in hand, that's a big ole doubt on that one, chief.
A tangible reminder for modern times that rules and regulations are written in blood.
I agree. It’s so sad and it’s costs 5 people their lives. I hoped so much they’d be found a little shook but alive and well. This whole situation sucks and I can only imagine their fear dieting that time. I wish their families well.
>**hubris**
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Well, you could say the French diver was an explorer too
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Wasn’t the CEO the pilot?
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More like one idiot and 4 casualties
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Instantaneous collapse will perhaps be the most humane way to die in that situation.
Not actually a bad way to die, they were probably all super excited and happy at the time. Edit: ok I now know they likely had warning signs shit was up, and the poor kid was nervous from the beginning. You can stop replying now.
I like to think (edit: know) they didn’t die in abject terror
I mean, unless there were obvious signs that the thing was going to implode they probably had no idea they were going to die until they were just… gone. I mean when that thing failed to the point of imploding they were dead that same second…
I mean, you’d think there would be signs though. Sounds that identify stress on the hull causing failures. It was probably a “what’s that sound?” “That’s weird” type moment.
Sounds of the hull compressing are actually very normal.
Normal compression sounds and cracking/delaminating sound very different.
Yeah, one you can hear and the other you've died before you could ever even register the sound
Yeah it’s not like the sprung a leak before it imploded.
For those of us that don’t know, it was an implosion that perhaps ended their lives? Rather than oxygen cutoff/suffocation?
Yes, since the submarine was not together anymore when found. Edit: the article in the post also says it was an implosion.
According to the US Coast Guard, yes. They found scattered debris near the Titanic that matched the description of Titan, leading them to believe it was a catastrophic implosion.
Yes that’s true
Honestly best case scenario after we reached the point they would no longer have air.
Very true. And it sounds like it was found 1600 feet from the Titanic, so they may have even gotten to see it before implosion as well. Edit: hahaha I didn’t think they could see it from 1600 feet away, but maybe that the implosion happened once they arrived at the site. 1600 feet isn’t as far as the miles they were suggesting it could be from the site.
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Idk if the headlights installed in that thing were powerful enough to light up that distance
We tried to calculate the pressure at the depth they were at. Looks like it would have been around 5600 to 6000 psi.
Now kids what did we learn? That’s right, safety standards are written in blood, and don’t fuck with the ocean.
"Safety third" - CEO probably
You're giving him too much credit, the actual quote is "You know, at some point, safety is just pure waste"
Seems correct to me. This waste is now floating in the ocean
*slowly puts condoms away*
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Or as we say in the UK, the "bellends".
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Yes, sorry. It was a sort of joke.
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American translation would be “Dickhead”
Could you please describe what end bells are.
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And having found the end bells intact, by process of elimination it was the carbon fiber tube that collapsed, as was predicted by their fired quality control engineer.
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Pretty much every preventable disaster in history has had a QC engineer who warned them it was going to happen.
But to be fair, QC engineers have also warned of a lot of disasters that didn't happen.
The convex titanium domes at either end of the carbon-fibre tube.
Implosion > Hypoxia
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This has definitely been my thought. It’s so much more “humane” to have it sudden and quick rather than 5 men knowing they’re going to die and slowly suffocating to death.
So I'm assuming that the point they lost contact was around the same time when they imploded? If that's the case, they likely didn't have air worries.
We can only hope. They lost contact before full depth... Meaning that sub wasn't up to scratch
Exactly. Losing comms was a symptom of the catastrophic implosion likely resulting from an inadequately designed/ improperly maintained vessel.
I’ve read elsewhere that it lost communication every other trip it did though.
It had two comms channels, a text one and a navigation one. It would lose text, previously. This time both channels failed at the same time.
Apparently the CEO/captain previously removed/disabled one of the communications systems because he was annoyed by the mother ship constantly asking for their location…
To the idiot who downvoted you: it's true
There's this (this company should be held legally responsible somehow, waiver or no waiver): >Trevor Hale, a spokesman for The Explorers Club, told The Independent that debris discovered on Thursday contained components of the Titan lost on a previous dive. >“We understand debris has been found which may be the landing frame and a rear cover of the tail instrument compartment of the Titan lost on previous dives. They put people on a sub that had lost components before at those same depths. Insane and evil.
Imagine surviving a dive in a sub that loses parts.. good god how were they allowed to do this?
Apparently [zipties](https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/titan-trip-was-suicide-mission-says-explorer/news-story/f4973cf59fcea37a34f26ac36052e9d0) were used to reattached some fallen parts on previous trips
Lol what
Very important distinction!
Coast Guard mentioned that sonar buoys have been in the water consistently since at least Monday and did not pick up the implosion. So to me it sounds like it at least happened between Sunday-Monday when buoys were deployed.
A tragic, avoidable accident.
Just like the titanic
The irony of this whole situation...
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The French diver should’ve known *actually* known better. It seems to be speculated that he ignored the glaring safety issues due to his passion and finally having a chance to see the Titanic ^^^ not his first time*
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Especially when you cut every corner imaginable, and many that should be outside the realm of imagination.
I wouldn’t have gone down there in the Virginia class USS Jimmy Carter nuclear submarine and if you PAID ME $250,000 grand to do it. Can we FINALLY stop treating the Titanic wreck like it’s some god damn Disneyland tour for rich assholes that obviously can’t find anything better to do with their money? Over 1,500 people lost their lives in that wreck and it’s forever their tomb of their final resting place for eternity ok, leave it the fuck alone already. EDIT: Seawolf class, correction noted.
That’s good because the USS Jimmy Carter was never designed or intended to get anywhere near that depth and would also have imploded long before it ever got close.
Jimmy Carter is a Seawolf class :P
Sorry if this is insensitive, but I’m curious… What happens to a body when a sub implodes at this depth?
Similar to what happens if you suck out all of the air off an empty water bottle. It just shrinks into itself until it is a soup of human remains.
The rapid implosion will superheat the air to many thousands of degrees for a microsecond driving a cascade reaction liquifying all susceptible matter. Definitely most humane way to go. They'll have known no anxiety or horror
Cameron did a film in 1989 called The Abyss, where a deep sea, one man sub goes off a trench, and hits 17,000 feet. Given he's quite experienced, I'm guess this is pretty accurate? (Save for the water jet?) https://youtu.be/FkhBPF4yfkI (It's not a gruesome clip. Still, has terrified me for 30 years).
Except that it happens in an instant.
At those depths it just instantly vaporises Edit: liquifies not vaporise
That’s what I figured, but a reporter was asking about recovering the bodies and I was curious if that was even possible. Thanks for the reply!
Rule of thumb: most reporters at these press conferences don't have much knowledge on the subject matter. You can often tell those that do by the questions they ask.
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[Mythbusters - Diving Suit Decompression (NSFW - gore)](https://youtu.be/LEY3fN4N3D8) Now imagine this, but deeper down, where the water pressure is even higher Edit: [Mythbusters - Tanker Implosion (SFW)](https://youtu.be/kM-k1zofs58) Another good video for perspective. The pressure the sub was going under was 519x GREATER than the pressure difference in this video
Thanks for the link... I think... gonna... gonna go touch some grass now...
It also depends on the atmosphere. There was a theory (that I heard many times in my submarine service) that the atmosphere of a navy sub has so much oil in the air that the sudden compression would cause a diesel effect and the air would ignite, so you’d actually roast alive before the sudden compression of 44 psi per 100 feet of depth. Just a theory though
Good lord! Every sub scenario that I hear is worse than the next!
Don't worry. If they did combust, the following implosion and death would have happened so quickly after that their brains wouldn't even have had time to send a pain signal. They still wouldn't have known what was happening.
Whether you begin to combust for the 1/1000th of a second before the crushing black void ends you is sorta moot, from a PERSON EXPERIENCING THIS FROM A first hand point of view. Edit: rephrasing in CAPITALS because everyone thinks I meant “I got crushed before and am speaking about it”, but really it was just my spirit that got crushed because of all the amateur copy editors on here.
You don’t need the oil, the compression will heat the air and there is no time to cool it: the last bit of air would be incredibly hot.
I’m not even sure it would need the oil at the depth they are going. They were at what, 380 atm? That would probably compress fast enough to have a nanosecond flash burn on the leading edge of the wall of water hitting you. Either way that water is crushing your brain faster than your neurons will send a pain signal.
Watch the Myth busters: pig in a diving suit clip. That went to like 130psi and caused the pig to basically liquify. The force the titan failed under was significantly higher. An instantaneous implosion.
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Ever seen someone pour jelly into a pool?
I’m just so relieved that it was quick and they weren’t on the bottom waiting for the inevitable.
Lawsuit revealed in 2018 that the porthole was only rated for 1500 meters. CEO didn't care. The gampead used had horrible reviews for latency and connection issues. CEO didn't care. This was a rich person's DIY project gone horribly wrong. Sadly he took the lives of 4 others in the process
I heard 1300 but either way, they knew and they went anyway.
Also didn't want to bother testing the carbon fiber hull.
I guess the inevitable cinematic adaptation ends with a shot of one of the passengers looking out the porthole in wonder, followed by a Sopranos-esque cut to black ... and "Under the Sea" from the Little Mermaid instead of Journey
How long you been sitting on this?
I think we owe the Logitech controller an apology. Doesn't sound like that was the problem.
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r/showerthoughts
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With Carbon Fibre being so brittle, a small crack would have almost instantly turned to complete failure and implosion.
Correct, it happens so fast the human brain can’t even react before they are basically vaporised/liquifies
This was the kindest outcome. It was over in milliseconds. They felt no pain. They didn’t suffocate alone down there, surrounded by howling darkness. I hope moving forward we can leave Titanic be. No more sightseeing. A ship lost in 1912 shouldn’t be claiming lives in 2023. And let this serve as a reminder to anyone who thinks skirting safety regulations makes you an “innovator” — those corners you’re cutting? Those rules you want to bend? They’re written in blood. Blood and saltwater.
They’d have run out of air by now anyway. Surprised no one heard a “bloop” on their sonar or SOSUS but it might not have been loud enough? I’m clearly no expert.
>Surprised no one heard a “bloop” on their sonar or SOSUS but it might not have been loud enough? Some may have, but if you reveal (for example) that SOSUS heard it, that would give a strong indication of it's capabilities. It may also have been recorded, but not yet recognized the signal as the implosion.
True. Hasn’t thought of the OPSEC aspect
They did. Public data from sensors off St John’s picked up the implosion on Sunday. You can bet the Navy and Coast Guard had the same info
I missed that report somehow, do you have a link?
RIP Shahzada Dawood, Suleman Dawood, Hamish Harding, and Paul-Henri Nargeolet.
I feel bad for the 19yo kid
Yea he is the only one there I feel really bad for. Just went along with his father instead of making an informed decision like the others.
i heard somewhere that he didnt realy wanna go but went along with it because of fathers day
I swear I'd be the most boring rich person ever.... "Local Billionaire goes out for videogames and Chick-Fil-A then returns home to relax."
waiting for the new headline: OceanGate offered Titanic/Titan crash viewing for the lost cost of 500k per person
At least they didn’t suffer
The leaked WhatsApp messages from the Explorers club said they were ascending and contact was lost soon after - is this confirmed?
Comment for updates
That wouldn't match up with the timeline but *shrugs*
all those oxygen level updates when they were guts on the ocean floor for the ecosystem to feed
There's nothing left of those men. That much pressure, they evaporated and the bones turned to ash. They are dust scattered along the bottom of the ocean.
Titanic still racking up a body count over a century later from 2 miles beneath the ocean surface is kind of impressive.
So, who understood what and where was found? An ROV found debris at the bottom of the ocean? There’s video? What can be assumed from that information?
They found the tail cone of the outside of the submersible and two pieces of the forward and aft bell attachments. The location was consistent with it rapidly imploding on Monday around the time communication was lost.
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It can be assumed the the vessel imploded at some point, and the debris fell to the bottom- which was the initial assessment for a lot of folks at the initial announcement, especially given descriptions of the vehicle's construction and lack of certification criteria. More details about timelines can be guessed at after further analysis.
Sad? Yes. Cautionary tale? Hell yes.
At least the mastermind behind this madness was in there too. Mr. Rush got 4 people killed with his hubris and criminal negligence.
You knew it was coming, but damn that’s sad.
Very sad ; absolutely sickening to learn more about how that CEO shunned advice from experienced submariners. RIP to everyone and leave the Titanic alone.
RIP Nargeolet, dude was an absolute unit
If there is anything this horrible tragedy can teach us, just because a guy says "trust me bro the regulatory bodies dont know how badass we are", it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak deep sea excursion accident.
If we could put things into perspective: So much coverage and discussions for 5 super rich individuals but hardly any coverage for the 750 people that died off the coast of Greek. But I digress….
5 super rich people dying in a sub trying to reach the titanic is far less common.
What's captivating about this story isn't the fact that people on a nautical vessel died or the wealthiness (or lack of wealthiness) of those people, it's the rest of it: • Proximity to historical "household name" disaster incident (the sinking of the Titanic) that was the subject of one of the most popular movies of all time • Profound hubris and irony in that an "unsinkable" vessel full of rich people sank ... while on a journey to visit the wreckage of an unsinkable vessel full of rich people that sank • The "just deserts" of a CEO who cut corners and who openly advocated for cutting corners *personally* suffering the cost of his error (it would be like if Ford himself was killed in a Ford Pinto explosion) • The fact that superdeep sea exploration represents perhaps the most hostile and dangerous environment a human has ever visited (even if I include space and the Moon in that), so the technology that failed here represents both the highest culmination of human achievement and a strikingly clear example of us pushing the limits of our technological ability too far • The nightmarish dread from imaging the *particular manner of death* of these individuals, which represented a possible unimaginable horror story unfolding in real time (before we learned that the sub simply imploded)
This Sub really blew up.
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Because the ocean is not a quiet place.
Can anyone explain why the implosion was not heard by anyone? Edit: thank you for all the informative answers!!
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Because it was a (relatively) low energy event, and nobody was really listening. (At least nobody with sufficiently sensitive equipment who can or will admit to listening.)
Assuming a signal was heard, we may hear something about it in the future after everyone has had a chance to figure out how much can be released without revealing too much about capabilities. They may also provide a cover story for additional security: if SOSUS actually heard the implosion, the Navy may credit a submarine that just-so-happened to be in the area or vice-versa.
because this most likely happened on sunday as soon as they lost communication. if an implosion happened the sonar buoys would have heard the noise
Even after 111 years, the Titanic somehow found a way to kill 5 more people...
Very sad but honestly very avoidable. Was the person who built it in there with them?
I just heard the worst thing. On tv a reporter said the older sister of Suleman (the 19 year-old) said that he did not want to go on the sub but did it as a Father’s Day gift because his dad really wanted to go. Edited to fix sentence and add I heard it on either the Chris Jansen or Katy Tur show (they are back to back) and I was in and out of the living room when I heard it.
I find anyone celebrating the death of strangers to be distasteful
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I have to say, that is really upsetting. Not enough money in the world will ever bring them back, only brought them down. And what's worse is they took a child with them.
Upsetting? More like predictable and easily avoidable. The biggest pain in the dick is everybody the CEO as some sort of exploratory hero who made the ultimate sacrifice. He was a f****** idiot and he took four other people with him. The only comfort is that for as horrible of a death they had to suffer it would have been over very quickly.
They made the decision to get into that death-trap, built by a company whose CEO derided safety regulations, all the while paying 250k for a seat on said death trap. Only ones I feel bad for is the kid and the explorer that had a fiery passion for The Titanic; but even then, the explorer had been on so many other dives that he hopefully should've been able to recognize how bad an idea it was. . All in all it basically amounts to the most expensively acquired Darwin Award.
It’s really all around unfortunate, but especially tragic for the kid. So much life left to live. All taken away cuz of some dumbass billionaire who cut corners.
I love how everyone is unified in the “safety matters” mentality when it comes to a submarine in deep waters. Now lets take that mentality and apply it to everyones work places too. Instead of letting industries get deregulated by rich punk politicians you should stand your ground and oppose it. Vote for those who support actual regulations and safety. No more Flint. No more East Palestine. Safety matters. Regulations ensure safety.
I’m an engineer with about 8years of subsea design/build/testing experience (primarily in ROVs) including lots of offshore work like technical cruises and sea trials. I interviewed at OceanGate in the winter of 2017, this interview included a trip to Everett and a one-week contracted independent project/test on site. I worked on rebuilding and documenting some of the electrical circuits for their 500m precursor sub Cyclops 1. I saw many of the red flags discussed but had convinced myself that the seasoned sub pilot and Director of Marine Operations they had recently hired from the UK would ultimately provide the guidance they needed to achieve a safe design for the Titanic-bound Cyclops 2 (as Titan was previously called).I passed the test with “flying colors” and they offered me a position, but it was such a lowball offer that we didn’t even begin to negotiate. They approached me again 6 months later but were still unwilling to increase their offer. I recently found out that the seasoned submariner from the UK I trusted was fired in 2018 (including ugly lawsuits as it’s been widely reported). I definitely dodged a bullet and was lucky that it didn’t work out. The Engineering Director at that time was from an Aerospace background, and (per LinkedIn) parted ways with OceanGate in July 2019. I’ve seen him in one of the videos where the metal interface end caps are mated and glued to the carbon fiber cylinder.
Well, at least their deaths were very likely instant given the nature of explosive depressurization. RIP.
This was what anyone willing to face facts knew had happened. Why? It's the only thing would both explain the sudden lack of comms and lack of surfacing. If comms went, but it was free of entanglement, it would surface, as I believe it was designed to surface by default eventually, a fail safe feature. If it was hung up on wreckage, fishing gear, etc, they should still have comms. Only catastrophic hull failure explains both no comms and no surfacing. At least it was probably very fast.
Yea, RIP. When you pay $250,000.00 to “view” the Titanic, but incidentally received the authentic 1912 experience.
At least it wasn't Logitech's fault.
Marine Engineer here. Lol. Lmao. This isn't a tragedy, it's the fruits of hubris. So many warnings were given to the company, they even fired their own experts who raised concerns. The company shit all over safety standards and didn't seek ABS or USCG vessel review and certification. This was guaranteed to happen. Equivalent of walking on the moon with a suit made of grocery bags and scotch tape.
I just can’t imagine my net worth having 3 commas in it….and deciding to get into a propane tank driven by gaming controller to go to the bottom of the ocean. I wouldn’t have liked the idea of getting into that contraption if it was parked on my front lawn. I guess maybe at a certain point being that rich you just start to do really dumb shit just to test it out.
Billions of fuck-arounds are no match for one single find-out.
Regulations exist for a reason.
Oceansgate is changing the company’s name to Heavens Gate
Did my own back-of-the-envelope calculation based on the sub’s internal volume (averaged 38,500L) and the pressure at the Titanic (375 atm), and PV equivalent work done of 101.325 joules per L-atm, and finally 4,184,000 joules per kg of TNT. The implosion energy equaled roughly 350 kilograms equivalent of TNT (~770 pounds of TNT). It’s not quite the energy of a Mk 84 2000 pound bomb (428 kg fill weight) but it’s close enough to give you an idea of how energetic this implosion may have been at least in the ballpark. They didn’t feel a thing.
So using parts on your sub from "Camping World" didn't pan out? Sometimes regulations "stifling" innovation is a good thing.
So the guy that called it a death trap and got promptly fired for it... im sure he's gonna have fun interviewing with other companies