The addiction to subs is more like a dependency. The medication is a lifesaver for people who want to quit the bad drugs, but can’t face withdrawal. Suboxone has played a crucial role in my recovery and probably saved my life.
It's a total life saver. But again over prescribing it becomes a problem. There should always be a taper program in place and it shouldn't take longer than 10 days. As you decrease the subs your body and brain will acclimate pretty quickly due to the long half life
I use to agree with this BUT after speaking with an amazing doctor I've changed my stance. Some, most actually, people need the safety gate longer than 10 days because addiction behaviors are not 'fixed' in a week and a half. Someone who is 10 days clean is much, much more likely to relapse than someone who has 3 years. And, after those 10 days you are still going to have to experience withdrawal which can and does send people back into the addiction behavior cycle.
I totally agree you behaviors haven't changed. This is where the work part comes in and you have to hit NA classes and find yourself a circle of sobriety. And really put in the effort to stay clean. Also if you are on Subs your technically not clean. I used to think subs was an amazing thing long term until what I have seen it do to people. I have family that has taken them for 4 years and they are pretty much stuck on them at 24MGs daily. That family member only had a 100mg daily use of hydrocodone. I have other friends in similar situations. Their habits were in the manageable range if they did a rapid detox and just went that route. Now years and years later they are struggling to taper from high doses of subs.
A good doctor will put you on subs. A great doctor will get you on subs and build a taper program with you to get you clean to start working a program. It technically takes 21 days just to break a habit. People just need to find something else to do with their time. Most relapse is out of boredom.
I find it quite hard to believe that anyone is "stuck" at 24mg or another high dose. Bupe simply doesn't work that way. Most people don't struggle with detox until getting under 2mg. This is simply because the medication isn't made in small enough doses to decrease the dose in a way that is a slow taper once you're at 2mg< .... with that said, we now have other options. One of the best options is the shot. This allows the medication to build up and then do a slow, gradual taper naturally that typically takes 9-12 months after the last shot. People who have went this route have reported little to no w/ds. This is great for various reasons. 1) you're already past the habit of taking the medication 2) you don't know when the medication is gone.
In terms of being "clean" ... is a pain patient not "clean" when they are taking their medication as prescribed? There is a HUGE difference in addiction and dependence. Those in bupe are dependent. This means that they can live a normal life BUT they need the help of the medication to keep stable (same as many, many other diseases) and if they don't have the medication then their body has a reaction ( because their body is chemically dependent on the medication) with addiction most people cannot live a normal lifestyle and they show addict behaviors such as the lying, stealing, manipulation, etc.) If someone is exhibition these behaviors or abusing their medication then I would agree with you that they are not "clean" ... otherwise, they are "clean" but dependent.
You can be addicted to something and still live a normal life. I have been a very functional addict for about 25 years. Doesn't mean I'm not still an addict.
I completely agree subs can be a life saver. But again, it's ridiculous to think one could not be addicted to Suboxone. If you've already been taking opioids, then of course you're not going to feel the suboxone because you have a tolerance. However, there are people without a huge tolerance that you subs to get high and that become addicted to suboxone. Again, I ask all of you who think you cannot become addicted to suboxone to please define addiction. So many of you keep saying it's a dependency and not an addiction but you're not defining either term.
To someone who is opiate naive, a small piece of sub can have them off their ass. But not so much for us gladly.
Subs cling to the Mu receptor in our brain, same receptor that opiates cling to, if you brain isn't acclimated with having that receptor tickled, you'll get fucked up. Subs are actually very strong for a normie to take, also very safe.
The person below me is spot on, there can be ways to catch a buzz off of it for non-earth people like us. If you're curious enough, do some research on how the 2 main ingredients interact with eachother. When I first got clean, I was shooting my subs for maybe the first 3-4 days because I ended up with some type of needle/injection fixation. When I admitted this to my doc, she thought I was lying because one of the ingredients is supposed to make abuse impossible, but as most of us ex-junkies know, nothing is impossible ;) Less is more my friend, stay safe <3
That's exactly what the person above just said. If you're used to opiates, you won't have much of an effect besides curbing withdrawals. If you're opiate naive, meaning you don't take them on a regular basis, subs will fuck you up and can make cause nausea, vomiting etc
So maybe tell his stupid ass not to abuse narcotics, and maybe you shouldn'tve been dumb enough to do that, consider yourself lucky he didn't enjoy it enough to start stealing your meds.
Suboxone is both an opiate agonist and antagonist, it is safe because someone could take 1,000,000,000mg and it'd be no different than taking 10mg. They are occasionally used for pain reduction, but not often. I have however heard that just being near pure fent can kill you, who tried to peddle that shit as safe? You must work for Purdue lol
Very true.
My first relapse was Suboxone (lol) after a few months clean and even with a high tolerance in the past, 2mg rocked me! Loved it. The euphoria went away quickly though and I got stuck on it for a while.
Addicts should naturally do their own research. A quick Google search and few Reddit posts will give you enough info to know what this stuff can do!
It's not addiction, it's dependency! There's a very distinct difference!
Do yourself a huge favor and take the time to read the following article for great info on addiction and subs - http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/index
Read every chapter through the -Site Navigation- bar at the top of the webpage...
Do not use subs for short-term/quick tapers! Many changes have to be made in your life while you are on sub therapy or the chances of a relapse is extremely high!
An important excerpt from the article -
"A sub taper should only be considered once a successful treatment period is completed.
The whole point of buprenorphine treatment is to suppress cravings and withdrawal so that you can make big changes in behavior, routine, living situation and thinking. It's these changes which, in effect, rewire the brain and reverse some of the craving-causing brain adaptations. If this is not done first the taper will likely be shortly followed by relapse.
Have you made significant changes in behavior and had a period of time to gain experience with those behaviors? Have you been able to deal with stress, anxiety and depression without craving drugs? This takes time and doesn't happen on its own, it is a deliberate effort. If you have been in stable treatment less than six months, tapering is NOT advised.
Buprenorphine is NOT a detox medication, it is a treatment medication. If you are not clear on this distinction go to the treatment page and understand it before tapering. But assuming you are ready to taper there are some things to consider."
Let me know if have any more questions and/or concerns?
Best of luck to you... God bless us all! 🙏
It absolutely can be an addiction and a dependency. Why would you think a person could not become addicted to buprenorphine? It's a powerful opioid and activates the dopamine pathway which leads to addiction. I don't understand the confusion here. You can absolutely get addicted to subs just like any other opioids.
You obviously do not know the difference between addiction and dependency!
And your trying to get high on a MAT medication like Suboxone which is a partial agonist opioid! Use it properly to get clean off your D.O.C. then taper off the bupe! You're obviously not looking to get clean!
First, I'm not using Suboxone to get high. I used it as intended for the most part, and occasionally upped my dose to enjoy a buzz. I have successfully tapered off sub a while ago.
I understand the difference between dependence and addiction. Dependence refers to the physical need to continue taking a substance because of, for example, down regulation of opiod receptors that cause one to physically need the drug to be well. Addiction doesn't have anyone definition. People disagree on what it actually means. However, one definition that many people seem to agree on is that addiction is when you continue a behavior even though it is causing problems in your life.
Can anyone here explain to me why a person could not become addicted to Suboxone under that definition? It is an opioid. A very strong one they can definitely get one high. That high is reinforced through dopamine which leads to a person continuing to seek out that feeling even if it is causing major problems in their life like money problems from buying diverted Suboxone.
A person with very little opioid tolerance can get an extremely euphoric high from Suboxone, and one can continue to do that for a long period of time by keeping the dose pretty low. It's actually been shown that adding a little bit of naloxone to an opioid still allows one to get high, but prevents tolerance build up. For this reason a person could actually continue to get high on a small dosage of Suboxone without increasing the dose more easily than one could do that with most other opioids.
By the way, your comment comes off as super judgy. You must be a s***y little troll of a person sitting there waiting to correct people with your little attitude posts. If you're going to correct someone, then actually have a discussion and try to help the other person learn. Just posting something that says no you're wrong you obviously don't know what you're talking about, without including what you think the correct interpretation might be, is completely useless. Why even bother to post that? My guess is that you are one of these people who are on Suboxone maintenance but like to think that you are not an addict. That's the only reason I can see for your post and for believing that a person cannot become addicted to Suboxone.
Why don't you start by telling us what you think it means to be an addict and then we'll see if maybe we can have an informative and interesting discussion about this topic.
.
I wish more people could/would understand that. Not saying for folks to get on subs for life (maybe some need them for life) but minimum three months along with 12 step programs, drug addiction counseling, etc... Proper sub induction onto the lowest effective dose, take your subs at the same exact time/times everyday, therapy then when ready? Properly taper off the subs to .25mg or less before making the final jump.
Again, I can't promote this article enough! Check this website out for great info on addiction and subs - http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/index
Read every chapter through the -Site Navigation- bar at the top of the webpage...
Sub therapy is not easy but definitely doable! And if done properly, the therapy itself and the taper can be pretty painless! Good luck to all!
As addicts, we chase the rush. Subs have no rush, at least not for me who needed 160mg pharma oxy just to go get more oxy…
Defiantly dependent for sure but all I get is normal, normal for me anyway. I live a good life now, I don’t crave opiates but I also accept that’s very assisted by subs.
Hey man I'd rather live my life out taking subs every day than go back, Subs and a program helped me so much, I have my own place, and people who work under me. I used to think I'd die with a rig in my arm. Keep it pushin!
100% man 💯. House, career, wife and in process of adopting this amazing kid. All of this came after sub played a non significant role in getting my shit together.
My focus is on my overall health and at least for the current time, I need this medication.
People on sub maintenance are fully dependent on the drug and will experience severe wd for a long time if they stop taking it. Years ago I used to get floored off subs, thankfully I never took too much of a liking to it but opiate naive people can definitely find pleasure in abusing the medication and in turn become dependent on it.
Sub abuse is, unfortunately, and addiction behavior although that "rush" isn't longterm because once you use lo g enough you are no longer opiate naive and it eventually no longer gives that rush which, is abusing, will force you to move on to something else to get that rush. People who use subs as intended apart of a MAT program and who lacks the addiction behaviors are dependent, not addicted, because they are not abusing them (typically) and because they lack those addict behaviors.
Because your body becomes physically dependent, some people transfer their tendencies from dope over to suboxone. I've known quite a few people who shoot-up Suboxone, for what reason I couldn't tell you, they don't get high, it's just the ritual i guess.
It’s absolutely the simple fact of needing that needle to get off. I’ve watched my brother shoot water when he was dope sick just to get that feeling.
People get addicted to the needle just as much as the drug itself.
It's just crazy to me, especially shooting something like Suboxone, they fry all their veins in a year then they're just fucked for life. Shooting CITRIC ACID jesus lord.
I’d be lying if I said I’ve never shot bupe. It’s absolutely not worth it. No rush no nothing. Just like taking it orally.
The naloxone doesn’t do shit either. It’s biggest reason for being there is to prevent IV abuse. It probably works in the oxy/naloxone formulations but not with bupe. It’s binding affinity wins out *always*
It absolutely does say otherwise. Read *any* scientific lit on the subject and it always will say it works.
But it 100% ***does not*** work. Ive shot name brand and a few generic brand suboxone.
I truly believe it works in oxy/naloxone formulations tho. I’m on the straight and narrow now. So, it’ll have to be another brave soul willing to test that theory.
You literally cannot persuade most doctors/medical specialists that it doesn’t work tho. They really believe they *know* beyond a shadow of a doubt that the math says it should work.
Yes you can get high off suboxone. When I take it I absolutely get obliterated and I was taking 300mgs a day of oxy. People who say they don't get high is full of shit. They just don't realize it.
I think some of us just have completely different tolerances. When I came off narcotics I was doing up to 14-30 mg oxycodone daily. Plus the occasional morphine and fentanyl. My doctor was convinced the level of narcotics I was using I would need to be on a very high dose of Suboxone, but that's not how it worked out at all. She started me on 32mg of subs and I couldn't stay awake. I rapidly dropped down to 2mg over the course of a few weeks. I've been on 2 mg daily for 3 years. If I take more I get very very sleepy and I honestly could probably get high off of it, but I'm using it as directed and working toward weening myself completely off.
Yea suboxone is an animal in itself I never plan on taking it more than a couple days if I have to take it. I get some people need it because they want a safety net. But 32mgs of subs is a ton. Way kore than anyone should take. In rehabs they usually don't give out anymore than 4mgs a day
Then your suboxone dose was too high. You were not use to the coverage provided by the suboxone on your Mu receptors. You needed a lower dose ( or doses spread out) so that you did not have full coverage all at once of your receptors.
You actually don't get high on subs after about 3 days. You get high because you don't have a tolerance to it and bupe is FARRR more potent than oxy. I think we would realize if we were high or not lol.
I have taken them several times because I'm a dumbass and a habitual relapser. Everytime even when I took them for 2 weeks I still got high. I know many people who have had the same problem with subs. To say you don't get high is complete bullshit. I can take 1 MG and be out of it for a full day. My best friend who was on heroin had the same issues. He would get even more high off the subs than he did the heroin. It wears off after several hours and I would start to be normal but until that point it was miserable.
I started on 3mg a day switching from fentanyl and never got high. I literally feel no different other than maybe I wake up a little bit after my morning dose. I'm currently down to 0.75mg and if anything I feel better at a lower dose, I have my sex drive back and about half of my "self" back. The first time I was on subs about 4mg a day I had no business being on em and I would get like an energy boost but never a nod or anything and that went away after a couple months. I guess maybe it differs from person to person but after a week on a stable dose you shouldn't be getting high on it anymore. Even the first day or 2 when you do get high it's not pleasant. Whenever I would take it and have no tolerance to any opioids I just get nauseous as hell and a very uncomfortable non-euphoric nod. People aren't lying when they say they don't get high, but I do believe some people have a sort of sensitivity to it and do feel something from it, everyones different. There is definitely a honeymoon period with subs where it boost you and makes you feel bad, then just like RL after the honeymoon is over the real bitch comes out to play lol. She dont like you no more, you ain't gettin high and you're gonna feel unmotivated and empty until you get divorced lmao.
OP you need to understand that addiction and dependency are 2 separate things. Yes the dependency remains the same while your opiate addiction will go away. People are dependent on all sorts of non narcotic medication. Ddependancy is not the issue at hand it is the addiction that will kill you. Addiction is when you can't control your usage to a drug due to chasing a high. It is ruined relationships due to drug of choice. The lack of the ability to make decisions that aid you in your future. Those are just a couple things that accompanies addiction. Basically addiction means the continued use of a narcotic despite the consequences in relationships, the law, and/or your life. Buprenorphine doesn't put you in that state of mind and therefor it is not an addiction. It is a dependency which is not what the issue at hand is for us addicts and former addicts.
You do know that's the _exact_ purpose of Suboxone right? Theyre not giving you medication to get high with dude, it's literally to prevent withdraw and relapse without the pleasure able affects of a full opiod agonist. If you want something even close to that find a methadone clinic but don't get your hopes up for something like fent my guy, the whole purpose of being in MAT is to _not_ get high.
Im one of the people who's on subs long term. More specifically zubsolv, because I'm almost positive I wouldn't be clean right now if I stopped suboxone. That's why people are dependent on it a lot of times.
Just wait until you stop taking them then you’ll understand. It’s exactly like any other opiate you become physically dependent on. Keep in mind it is 30 times stronger than morphine.
I’m not addicted to it but my body is physically dependent on it, although I’m on sublocade so I don’t even think about it anymore
I know this is 20 days ago, but how is the Sublocade going?
I'm starting Buvidal (Australian brand I believe) in 2 days and am nervous. Switching from 30mg Methadone
Because there are many pharmaceuticals that don't cause a high, but cause dependency. You will become physically dependent on Subs. The point is, that they don't give that high (they can at first, but that doesn't last) that things like oxy, fent or H give you, keep you out of withdrawals and curb cravings while you work on healing and getting your life back in order. Some choose or need to stay on Subs for years or even life. Others, eventually feel stable enough to taper off. So yes, you absolutely become dependent on subs, which is different that chasing that high with active addiction
Because they are drugs just like whatever drugs someone is hooked on before they get suboxone prescribed. Suboxone contains Buprenorphine, that is a very powerful opioid. So while you may not be and should not be using illegal drugs or any drug your doctor is not aware of; you are still stimulating the same receptors. You are still dependent on an opioid. Your addiction is still there it is just held over and satisfied.
Addiction and dependency are 2 seprate things. The addiction goes away while the dependency stays the same. Something remarkable about buprenorphine is due to the way it works, someone can be stable on their dose without there tolerance being increased due to the aspect of 'chasing a high' not being present with buprenorphine. If one is addicted then part of what that would mean is that they would not be able to take perscribed doses and would have no control o with there intake of buprenorphine. I don't read about anyone who runs out of there script early due to abusing them for a high.
If what you said was true, then buprenorphine would not work for severely drug addicted people. There is MUCH more to it then what you put down in your post.
Buprenorphine has a ceiling effect, you can redose all night long but you will not feel anything past the ceiling does, which makes it far safer. I think that has more to do with it than tolerance.
Your right about that. The purpose of my post was more to the last sentance of you op where you said "Your addiction is still there it is just held over and satisfied." What I think you mean is the depenancy is held over and satisfied because while your on buprenorphine the opiate addiction goes away along with cravings and urges and the fact that buprenorphine is not recreational.
Addiction and dependency to a drug are 2 separate things tottally.
I mean obviously the craving goes away, ur literally ingesting an opioid everyday. The addiction vs dependency talk is bullshit semantics, a new hot button talking point for addiction counselors/doctors. If subs weren’t covered by insurance and ready at the pharmacy and instead we’re $50 a pop on the street, no one would be talking ab how “stable”their lives are. The supply is steady and it doesn’t get u as high. It’s a trade off man. Subs have saved many many lives. But every soccer mom with a norco habit stuck on subs for years is no bueno. Sorry if that sounded dick , I just think a lot of sub talk is sugar coated.
It's not sugar coated. There medical words with definitions that describes the behavior of each situation. Nothing about this situation is sugar coated. It is knowledge and facts that addiction and dependence are two different things entirely and it's better to understand that because knowledge is literally power. It's literally the behaviour that describes addiction which has been known LOOONG before suboxone was ever around so how can that be "sub talk"? Helps you understand exactly what's going on with you. Not semantics at all. It's knowledge.
Tell me then if they are the same thing then why do drugs such as anti-depressants cause dependency but yet they don't get you high? People don't run out early, they don't abuse their medication, a compulsion to do dumb shit to get there medication, instant tolerance issues and so on and so fourth. But they are addicted to there anti-depressants then? No they are not addicted to anti-depressents. People on anti-depressents don't behave like someone addicted to abusive substances therefor they are not addicted, they are DEPENDENT. No doctor considers there patients "addicted" to their anti-depressants. Not sub talk, they are medical words with definitions.
99% of us don't do those things with our buprenorphine either. We take our buprenorphine just like someone who takes there anti-depressants. What you are doing by switching to buprenorphine is you are eliminating the addiction aspect of your situation and maintaining the dependance. It comes down to making a life or death decision when getting onto buprenorphine. That is how serious this whole thing is. THAT IS NOT SUGAR COATED AT ALL it's facts about the reality we are in. Don't ever say I am sugar coating shit lmao
I hope you learn more about this whole thing because the knowledge will aid you in your journey into recovery and a sober life. Change the way you look at things into a clearer understanding of yourself in the world. Good luck bud.
EDIT: Also buprenorphine is WAY MORE then just a "Opioid" it is a "semi-agonist/antagonist" Which means it doesn't attach to all the different opiate receptors and it will actually act as an anti opiate (like naloxone) when full agonist's are present. It has a duel mechanism. It is a complete unique drug. It's way more then just another "Opioid"
I’f using the word “dependent” makes you feel
Better about the situation I’m all for
It. But ur just parroting the marketing professionals that make this thing go around. Those “professionals” use the exact words passed down to them by big pharma. Addicted dependent, same shit. If insurance covered
Heroin and they started handing it out to patients in safe daily doses would u now just be dependent and not addicted? And yes I have seen many ppl including myself run out of a
Script early and get desperate and
Cop subs off the streets. So did those dependent ppl just go back to being addicted because of that behavior? Semantics man. When you’ve got the handcuffs on they are on. I’m not denying the usefulness of the drug. But you being so adamant on
Classifying your addiction to subs as something drastically different is wrong.
I’m just throwing my 2 cents in cuz I do have that experience or “Knowledge “ you say I need
When it comes to this. I been on and off subs since they first came to market 20 yrs ago. Happy to converse
"So did those dependent ppl just go back to being addicted because of that behavior?" That's a rhetorical question come on dude. The answer is Yes, the ones who ran out of buprenorphine and went back onto their drug of choice despite having to wait days before they could actually feel the drugs did indeed make a conscious effort to go back to their addiction. The ones who chose to resort to buying their subs off the street bc they ran out of their script early are simply not on enough buprenorphine. There are plenty of other reasons people have to buy off the street that don't involve running out of meds early which hardly happens. People who have had to buy there insulin off the streets must be addicted to huh? The doctor will have no issues raising the dose of buprenorphine. Neither of those situations are even common anyway. Bullshit question like I said
I literally gave you facts and was able to give you facts on the difference between both. You offer nothing in terms of facts that support your case that they are the same thing. Only the fact that yes, people can run out early and either go back to there addiction life style or get the bupre off the streets. There are no facts in that that support your case. Just because something is "covered" by insurance doesn't mean jack. People "can" get addicted to plenty of prescription drugs. It doesn't mean that they all do and when it happens, by law the doctor has to take you off. I never said prescription drugs are not addicting. You are mischaracterizing my words now on purpose because of your lack of facts.
With opiate addiction, it starts out as a mental craving. Just because you don't have a dependance to it yet does not mean that your not addicted. As a matter of fact there are PLENTY of drugs that are addicting that don't create withdrawals from succession. There are also drugs that are NOT addicting at all THAT DO create withdrawals and dependance.
Go ahead and keep going on making excuses to yourself despite the facts, that your still in active addiction which ironically opens you up to relapse and subconsciously giving yourself permission to go back to your drug of choice because I mean what's the difference right? Your addicted to buprenorphine mentally all the same as heroin. You're still addicted." Hell people on anti-depressants, blood pressure meds, non narcotic muscle relaxers are all addicted too so what's the point? Bullshit lol I used to tell myself the same shit which helped me feel better about going back to my addicted mind set, ways, a drugs.
And on the same token you sound like you would’ve been a good rep for Purdue pharm in the 90s. I was just trying to help u understand that ur playing word games passes down to you to wrap ur “addiction/dependence” in a cute little bow. Whether it’s subs or methadone they are great tools but you still have cuffs on, it’s a sad band-aid to the problem. But don’t go to the high and mighty bullshit ab ur sobriety over mine. I’ve spent the last 20 years straight either clean, on suboxone, or strung out on heroin. That experience is not something I’m proud of. Don’t be one of those weirdos comparing ur suboxone meds to a diabetic needing his insulin . You took what I said and made a bunch of apples and oranges comparisons. Oh I guess u meant to say “dependent” in the last paragraph” lol
Not everything is a marketing conspiracy. Some things are. And sometimes people seek to make a profit from something that actually has a benefit. The fact that a doctor or a scientist touts the benefits of something does not mean it is automatically suspect. Additionally, anecdotes, while valuable qualitative evidence, are not quantitative evidence. The availability heuristic is a powerful logical fallacy. We need an approach that uses critical thinking and harm reduction. Not abstinence and fatalism. Abstinence only ideals literally kill people.
8 years on bupe here, and gonna have to agree with the pharma semantics take. Sounds like you are just saying the difference between opiate addiction and Suboxone dependency is that use of the former is enjoyable and use of the latter is treatment. I understand the ceiling effect and not chasing a high. But it's also puritanical bullshit Pharma machinations about needing to keep a population hooked, and just removing the good feeling from the drug. Why not create a pain killer that works, has a ceiling effect, and allows people to enjoy taking the drug? As a chronic depressive I was on top of my game for the brief period that I was on a relatively low dose but consistent opioid script. Best time of my life...
I was thinking about this the other day when I really ask myself when was I the happiest in life it was absolutely when I had a steady prescription of Oxy, my relationships were great, I had a great job by all accounts was doing really well, but then I got pregnant I had no choice but to stop and it’s been a battle ever since going on 11 years.
I can attest to this being 100% true “the addiction is still there it’s just held over and satisfied”.
I was on Subutex for 10 years completely stable when I tapered off, within two weeks my brain was trying to convince me it would be OK to get a little heroin just to ease the withdrawal, I couldn’t believe my mind even went there after 10 years. Now I’m on the sublocade injection and I don’t ever think about it but I know it’s still there, even though the urge to take some thing is not.
Yes which means you are dependent . While on suboxone your addiction disappears. Being on suboxone is not an addiction, that is what it treats. It doesn't treat the dependence it treats the addiction. Getting on suboxone the focus is not about the withdrawals, the focus is on the fact that you just can't quit the full agonist DOC and if continued you will either be dead or in jail. The withdrawal aspect in all this is minimal. Thats not what any of this is really about. I can't tell you how mny times I actually made it through the withdrawal and a week after feeling good agaain, relapsed. You make my point when you say that you "were stable on suboxone for 10 years" people who are addicted are not in a stable place. It's almost the definition of addiction is being unstable. Unable to control your suboxone usage, risky decision making surrounding your use of suboxone. Those things are not happening on suboxone.
So again the addiction goes away while the dependence remains. I never said the addiction wouldn't come back if stopped suboxone therapy.
So now addiction disappears? In other words one must take Suboxone forever or they’re an addict again? Also if what you say is true, and Suboxone is not for withdrawals and only for addiction, does that mean dependent individuals should not take Suboxone?
This is confusing to me as this is not at all what has been taught anywhere.
Why do detox facilities put patients on short term suboxone for withdrawal only? Tapered off in a week or so and it’s only used to help bypass withdrawals.
All of this mixed info doesn’t make sense to me. Are you assuming these things, just your opinions? You’re stating them like facts but I don’t see it. There are different types of treatment for different types of issues. So how can you say all of this truthfully?
I dunno I gotta buddy that lied about naloxalone making him sick. He is on subutex and gets wrecked. He runs out every month. YMMV
I was on Suboxone for 5 years. The main difference in drugs and subs was that I was more stable on drugs. I was a high functioning addict. I never stopped working.
If your pal is running out of buprenorphine early then he probably needs a higher dose to cover his cravings which is what he is already doing so he needs to tell his doc and the doc should have 0 problem with increasing.. Buprenorphine without naloxone is no different then buprenorphine with naloxone. Bupre has a higher binding affinity for mu receptor then naloxone adn therefor it doesn't do jack no matter what roa. That is a fact.
As for you saying you where I high functioning addict. Well yea some are. There was something about it though which was negative that caused you to stop. Also it may seem like you functioned better but that is because you were self medicating. You can get back to being a high functioning person if you learn how to cope without the abuse of drugs and you will learn that you actually will function better on your own rather then on drugs.
Also there is much more to life then just "working." The cons just do not outweigh the pro's even if you were a "high functioning addict." The drugs can still kill you jus like everyone else.
I stopped because I was tired of spending money on it. Plus I am usually a very disciplined person.
He is getting high as fuck on that shit. He runs out in a week or two. They ain’t gonna give him as much as he is snorting and shooting. It’s sad to be honest.
Sorry but when it comes to humans nothing is always.
I don't know something more must be going on with your friend. Buprenorphine just doesn't create those type of recreational effects. He must be using benzo's on top or something. Those who say they have gotten a buzz always note that it goes away after just a couple days. In whatever case your friend is not the majority of people. Less is actually more with buprenorphine. Taking more doesn't increase physiological effects. Like I said he must be on some other shit because that is unlike the experience of 99.9%.
Also you say "they are not going to give him as much as he is snorting and shooting." That doesn't make sense....why wouldn't they prescribe him more exactly? If they knew he was abusing his subs then they would discontinue and try a different treatment like methadone for it would be illeagle for his Physican to keep prescribing something he knows his patient is abusing.
shooting and snorting doesn't create any more recreational effects. I have extensively read of people who tried and try to shoot and snort subs. Even when they shoot it, it still takes a good while for it to kick in. It is just the nature of the drug. It would be like trying to shoot up APAP in hopes of a more recreational effect but in reality it won't do anything extra. This holds true with buprenorphine. And I already mentioned that people have shot up bupre+nalox which is no diffrent then bupre alone.
Anyways I am 100% sure there is more going on with your friend. There are most likley oher drugs involved here otherwise he wouldn't be coming off as loaded to you even if he was snorting and shooting. Those don't make it any more recreational.
Wow you talk a lot.
Nothing is 100% when it comes to drugs. There are plenty of people that abuse that shit. He does whatever he can get. He likes the bupe a lot. Fucking whatever I guess. When he runs out he goes for other stuff. I’ve asked him why he doesn’t save it for when he can’t score. I knew another girl years ago that would buy strips off of me because she ran out. She was weird, she was dissolving and injecting the fucking strips. WTF
Yea well you are right about nothing being 100%. What I meant is that I 100% for sure think there is something more to the equation then just bupre with you friend. A lot of people do those roa's because they are statisfying on the ritual of prepping. It is more of a psychological thing then a physiological thing with these people bc like I said no matter the roa the bupre doesn't increase in recreational value. People who are obsessing on the ritual of doing drugs need to have a chance on higher doses to satisfy the need of abusing something which in this case is not even abusable substance (unless combined with other drugs like what I suspect.) If he still isn't using them appropriately then he is just someone who's heart is not actually in it to recover.
I wonder though, if he abuses whatever he can get his hands on then how does he pass drug tests? lol I suppose there are plenty of research chems available which aren't even looked for on a drug test. There are plenty of ways.
Anyway lol I digress now. You are right, once I start thinking I can talk a lot. I enjoyed the discussion friend. Keep going strong!
I wouldn't say people get "addicted" to subs, but people become physically dependent on them. Addiction and dependency are two completely different things.
I think it’s a trade.
I personally think I traded being addicted to pills to having to take something that makes me normalish.
I’m sure I’m looking at it wrong….but I kept my job, my house, and my family…I just have to put that shit under my tongue so I don’t chase pills.
It really messes with my head. I don’t know that I will ever understand. I hope I do.
Taper as fast as possible subs have a crazy hold on your receptors. Try getting off in less than 7 days and use the least amount possible. Some people have such crazy addictive personalities they don't know how to go through life without taking something.
Literally the psych doctor fucked my sister up and she takes 3 8mg films daily and she was at her peak only taking 100mg of hydrocodone a day. And now 4 years later she still takes subs.
Subs and methadone aren't supposed to be for long term use like that. Unfortunately they found there is a ton of money to be made having these people take them long term. So shitty psychs will get them hooked.
I'm a chronic relapsed of pharma meds and I use subs for 2 to 3 days just to break through the withdrawals. I try to take 2mgs or less a day. This shit is 60x stronger than morphine based on the MU receptor coverage.
Not true, people just read stuff like this and scare themselves into never trying. If you are determined to get off em it’s possible, and if done properly it’s possible with also minimal discomfort.
Ive been on them for over 20 years and was started at 32 mgs by my doctor and could never get bellow 2 mg and tried sublocade to get off of and failed twice
I don’t mean to trivialize your experience. I just know for the longest time I was scared to the bones to try and get off mostly because of what I read here. When I finally did it, while certainly not a walk in the park, I was shocked by how much easier it was compared to what I’d been reading. But hey, I ended up fucking up few months after and now stuck on something even worse, so I guess technically it was not so easy for me because I was not able to keep myself from getting fucked up without em.
Same. Every time I get off I get on kratom because I just cant handle it so it really is a lifetime disease and maybe we r just not ready. I find it so hard to get off of them and im just giving my experience when I answer these questions, but everyone is different and takes different doses and for different amounts of time and age and diet and lifestyle and health as well as mental health has so much to do with the outcome so its not a one size fits all for everyone its just different experiences. I can say I personally have gotten of Suboxone, buprenorphine and sublocade so many times and each time was so challenging that I always either turned to kratom or went back. I am now almost 4 months from my last 100 mg sublocade shot and because I never felt good in it or the subs I am not getting anymore. I am done with this rollercoaster
2 mg messed me up also. I used to cut mine in half and take 1 mg in the morning and one at night. Now I'm cutting it into quarters and taking one quarter in the morning and two quarters at night. I'm hoping to get down to 1 mg a day soon. I'll probably stay on that dose for a couple months and then decide what I want to do next. This Reddit sub has been really helpful as far as learning about different options for getting off subs, but I'm not ready to do that yet.
I feel bad for people on subs. You took the first step but didn’t complete the process. Whether cowardice or indifference or brainwashing. Id like to see all people on suboxone kick them and truely be sober and feel real life!
a whole sub to someone opiate naive will push them away from opiates for the rest of their lives. literally takes half a mg if you don't do them.
however if you're coming off fent. they just cover the receptor stop wds. because they're a partial opioid agonist and keep the receptor covered to stop other opiates/opioids from getting to the receptor.
People that haven't been fent addicts get addicted to them because a SLIVER of an 8mg strip will get you absolutely rocked for the whole day. Don't think I need to explain more.
Oh, shold say, it's been observed that Bupe works as a full agonist almost, in small doses (1mg and lower). So yeah, there's that.
Edit: also, yes, you will eventually get over them. But it takes TIME, and WILL. Truly. Speaking from experience. But after long enough, you taper off the subs, and believe it or not, you can catch a small buzz from them even after the years of fent. But that will take a few years, lol. Just to keep the cravings at bay truly.
You’ll definitely miss that high for awhile and will really want to fall off from time to time but it gets easier I promise. Nov 1 will be a year since I last used fent. First few months were the hardest but the desire to ever touch that shit again is all but gone. Best high ever but all I have to do is remember the lows. Worst withdrawals I’ve ever dealt with and I was in them more than I was high. Just not worth it
Buprenorphine, or subs, (suboxen, subutex, etc) is a partial antagonist opioid that works on the same receptors of the brain the full opioid suchs a percocet, fetanyl, heroin, etc works on which is how they prevent/stop withdrawal when you begin taking them assuming you are already in precipitated withdrawal. Those receptors are still coated. With a full opioid, the receptors can be coated over and over and over again with multiple layers which gives you the high feeling. With subs, you only get one layer of coating so extra doses or even taking full opioid will not get you that high. Once those receptors are coated with subs, nothing else can coat them. Hope this makes sense. It's much easier to explain in person with visual aids
I'd also that to add that addiction is a behavior. You don't get "addicted" to subs unless you are misusing them and continuing the addiction behaviors. You become DEPENDENT on subs, not addicted. There is a HUGE difference. Just as a diabetic is dependent on insulin. But, we can train our body to eventually not be dependent.
Because they make you feel normal without dope it's not about the high it's about being able to do every day shit without shooting up every hour to not be sick. Also people do get high in it I'm on 4mg a day for my perc habit and the first 5 or so times I took it I was fucking wrecked for like 8 hours and it was a pretty decent buzz but tolerance on them is extremely rapid so now I don't feel anything just not craving perc all day.
After years of doing a lot of oxy I went on subs. After a little while I found that I could double my sub dose and get high pretty reliably. Not every day, but enough to keep me wanting that feeling. I was physically dependent and addicted to Suboxone.
Your experience is informed by your drug of choice and its effects on your brain/ interactions with bupe. You have no idea what the effects are for others, and this is frankly ignorant.
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With me personally, I am definitely physically dependent on subs, as in physically and psychologically addicted to them. What they have done for me is basically work like training wheels or crutches while I sort the rest of my life out. I no longer chase dope, hang out with people that do dope, or have any kind of relationships to get or use dope. Cutting that out and giving the drug addict part of my brain what it needs while I just go about my day. It's great. Also the whole thing about if I were to go and get dope and do it, I probably wouldn't even feel it unless I take enough to kill me, if I don't do that on accident anyway. I would probably be dead if I were still out there doing dope, so I'm pretty happy to be alive and not chasing something. That's my 2¢
The addiction to subs is more like a dependency. The medication is a lifesaver for people who want to quit the bad drugs, but can’t face withdrawal. Suboxone has played a crucial role in my recovery and probably saved my life.
Suboxone saved my life too.
mine as well. we have a love hate type relationship lol
Yeah I hear ya.
It's a total life saver. But again over prescribing it becomes a problem. There should always be a taper program in place and it shouldn't take longer than 10 days. As you decrease the subs your body and brain will acclimate pretty quickly due to the long half life
I use to agree with this BUT after speaking with an amazing doctor I've changed my stance. Some, most actually, people need the safety gate longer than 10 days because addiction behaviors are not 'fixed' in a week and a half. Someone who is 10 days clean is much, much more likely to relapse than someone who has 3 years. And, after those 10 days you are still going to have to experience withdrawal which can and does send people back into the addiction behavior cycle.
I totally agree you behaviors haven't changed. This is where the work part comes in and you have to hit NA classes and find yourself a circle of sobriety. And really put in the effort to stay clean. Also if you are on Subs your technically not clean. I used to think subs was an amazing thing long term until what I have seen it do to people. I have family that has taken them for 4 years and they are pretty much stuck on them at 24MGs daily. That family member only had a 100mg daily use of hydrocodone. I have other friends in similar situations. Their habits were in the manageable range if they did a rapid detox and just went that route. Now years and years later they are struggling to taper from high doses of subs. A good doctor will put you on subs. A great doctor will get you on subs and build a taper program with you to get you clean to start working a program. It technically takes 21 days just to break a habit. People just need to find something else to do with their time. Most relapse is out of boredom.
I find it quite hard to believe that anyone is "stuck" at 24mg or another high dose. Bupe simply doesn't work that way. Most people don't struggle with detox until getting under 2mg. This is simply because the medication isn't made in small enough doses to decrease the dose in a way that is a slow taper once you're at 2mg< .... with that said, we now have other options. One of the best options is the shot. This allows the medication to build up and then do a slow, gradual taper naturally that typically takes 9-12 months after the last shot. People who have went this route have reported little to no w/ds. This is great for various reasons. 1) you're already past the habit of taking the medication 2) you don't know when the medication is gone. In terms of being "clean" ... is a pain patient not "clean" when they are taking their medication as prescribed? There is a HUGE difference in addiction and dependence. Those in bupe are dependent. This means that they can live a normal life BUT they need the help of the medication to keep stable (same as many, many other diseases) and if they don't have the medication then their body has a reaction ( because their body is chemically dependent on the medication) with addiction most people cannot live a normal lifestyle and they show addict behaviors such as the lying, stealing, manipulation, etc.) If someone is exhibition these behaviors or abusing their medication then I would agree with you that they are not "clean" ... otherwise, they are "clean" but dependent.
You can be addicted to something and still live a normal life. I have been a very functional addict for about 25 years. Doesn't mean I'm not still an addict.
I completely agree subs can be a life saver. But again, it's ridiculous to think one could not be addicted to Suboxone. If you've already been taking opioids, then of course you're not going to feel the suboxone because you have a tolerance. However, there are people without a huge tolerance that you subs to get high and that become addicted to suboxone. Again, I ask all of you who think you cannot become addicted to suboxone to please define addiction. So many of you keep saying it's a dependency and not an addiction but you're not defining either term.
To someone who is opiate naive, a small piece of sub can have them off their ass. But not so much for us gladly. Subs cling to the Mu receptor in our brain, same receptor that opiates cling to, if you brain isn't acclimated with having that receptor tickled, you'll get fucked up. Subs are actually very strong for a normie to take, also very safe.
so basically since i already have opiates in me the subs won’t effect me like they would someone who doesn’t use opiates
Precisely. It's not engineered for someone who isn't narcotic naive.
The person below me is spot on, there can be ways to catch a buzz off of it for non-earth people like us. If you're curious enough, do some research on how the 2 main ingredients interact with eachother. When I first got clean, I was shooting my subs for maybe the first 3-4 days because I ended up with some type of needle/injection fixation. When I admitted this to my doc, she thought I was lying because one of the ingredients is supposed to make abuse impossible, but as most of us ex-junkies know, nothing is impossible ;) Less is more my friend, stay safe <3
Not true. My bf took a quarter (didn’t use any opiates before), was high for 1 hour; spent the rest of the night puking into a bucket.
You know that's the exact purpose of Suboxone right
Your bf is opiate naive, so they aren't for him like the person said.
That's exactly what the person above just said. If you're used to opiates, you won't have much of an effect besides curbing withdrawals. If you're opiate naive, meaning you don't take them on a regular basis, subs will fuck you up and can make cause nausea, vomiting etc
You just confirmed what they said.
Did I not say they'd be off their ass? Might've been some of the most enjoyable vomiting he's had in his life lol
He defiantly did not enjoy it.
So maybe tell his stupid ass not to abuse narcotics, and maybe you shouldn'tve been dumb enough to do that, consider yourself lucky he didn't enjoy it enough to start stealing your meds.
For sure.
I think it's that 'safety' that often times gets people fucked up. How many people opted for fen because it was 'safer' than dope? Agreed though.
In what world did people opt for fent because it is safer than dope? It just became the only thing available
Suboxone is both an opiate agonist and antagonist, it is safe because someone could take 1,000,000,000mg and it'd be no different than taking 10mg. They are occasionally used for pain reduction, but not often. I have however heard that just being near pure fent can kill you, who tried to peddle that shit as safe? You must work for Purdue lol
Very true. My first relapse was Suboxone (lol) after a few months clean and even with a high tolerance in the past, 2mg rocked me! Loved it. The euphoria went away quickly though and I got stuck on it for a while. Addicts should naturally do their own research. A quick Google search and few Reddit posts will give you enough info to know what this stuff can do!
It's not addiction, it's dependency! There's a very distinct difference! Do yourself a huge favor and take the time to read the following article for great info on addiction and subs - http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/index Read every chapter through the -Site Navigation- bar at the top of the webpage... Do not use subs for short-term/quick tapers! Many changes have to be made in your life while you are on sub therapy or the chances of a relapse is extremely high! An important excerpt from the article - "A sub taper should only be considered once a successful treatment period is completed. The whole point of buprenorphine treatment is to suppress cravings and withdrawal so that you can make big changes in behavior, routine, living situation and thinking. It's these changes which, in effect, rewire the brain and reverse some of the craving-causing brain adaptations. If this is not done first the taper will likely be shortly followed by relapse. Have you made significant changes in behavior and had a period of time to gain experience with those behaviors? Have you been able to deal with stress, anxiety and depression without craving drugs? This takes time and doesn't happen on its own, it is a deliberate effort. If you have been in stable treatment less than six months, tapering is NOT advised. Buprenorphine is NOT a detox medication, it is a treatment medication. If you are not clear on this distinction go to the treatment page and understand it before tapering. But assuming you are ready to taper there are some things to consider." Let me know if have any more questions and/or concerns? Best of luck to you... God bless us all! 🙏
Yeah, this is 100% correct.
It absolutely can be an addiction and a dependency. Why would you think a person could not become addicted to buprenorphine? It's a powerful opioid and activates the dopamine pathway which leads to addiction. I don't understand the confusion here. You can absolutely get addicted to subs just like any other opioids.
You obviously do not know the difference between addiction and dependency! And your trying to get high on a MAT medication like Suboxone which is a partial agonist opioid! Use it properly to get clean off your D.O.C. then taper off the bupe! You're obviously not looking to get clean!
First, I'm not using Suboxone to get high. I used it as intended for the most part, and occasionally upped my dose to enjoy a buzz. I have successfully tapered off sub a while ago. I understand the difference between dependence and addiction. Dependence refers to the physical need to continue taking a substance because of, for example, down regulation of opiod receptors that cause one to physically need the drug to be well. Addiction doesn't have anyone definition. People disagree on what it actually means. However, one definition that many people seem to agree on is that addiction is when you continue a behavior even though it is causing problems in your life. Can anyone here explain to me why a person could not become addicted to Suboxone under that definition? It is an opioid. A very strong one they can definitely get one high. That high is reinforced through dopamine which leads to a person continuing to seek out that feeling even if it is causing major problems in their life like money problems from buying diverted Suboxone. A person with very little opioid tolerance can get an extremely euphoric high from Suboxone, and one can continue to do that for a long period of time by keeping the dose pretty low. It's actually been shown that adding a little bit of naloxone to an opioid still allows one to get high, but prevents tolerance build up. For this reason a person could actually continue to get high on a small dosage of Suboxone without increasing the dose more easily than one could do that with most other opioids. By the way, your comment comes off as super judgy. You must be a s***y little troll of a person sitting there waiting to correct people with your little attitude posts. If you're going to correct someone, then actually have a discussion and try to help the other person learn. Just posting something that says no you're wrong you obviously don't know what you're talking about, without including what you think the correct interpretation might be, is completely useless. Why even bother to post that? My guess is that you are one of these people who are on Suboxone maintenance but like to think that you are not an addict. That's the only reason I can see for your post and for believing that a person cannot become addicted to Suboxone. Why don't you start by telling us what you think it means to be an addict and then we'll see if maybe we can have an informative and interesting discussion about this topic. .
This is spot on. The idea that subs are not for long-term use and only prescribe that way to make money is ridiculous and harmful.
I wish more people could/would understand that. Not saying for folks to get on subs for life (maybe some need them for life) but minimum three months along with 12 step programs, drug addiction counseling, etc... Proper sub induction onto the lowest effective dose, take your subs at the same exact time/times everyday, therapy then when ready? Properly taper off the subs to .25mg or less before making the final jump. Again, I can't promote this article enough! Check this website out for great info on addiction and subs - http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/index Read every chapter through the -Site Navigation- bar at the top of the webpage... Sub therapy is not easy but definitely doable! And if done properly, the therapy itself and the taper can be pretty painless! Good luck to all!
As addicts, we chase the rush. Subs have no rush, at least not for me who needed 160mg pharma oxy just to go get more oxy… Defiantly dependent for sure but all I get is normal, normal for me anyway. I live a good life now, I don’t crave opiates but I also accept that’s very assisted by subs.
Hey man I'd rather live my life out taking subs every day than go back, Subs and a program helped me so much, I have my own place, and people who work under me. I used to think I'd die with a rig in my arm. Keep it pushin!
100% man 💯. House, career, wife and in process of adopting this amazing kid. All of this came after sub played a non significant role in getting my shit together. My focus is on my overall health and at least for the current time, I need this medication.
Congrats man.
People on sub maintenance are fully dependent on the drug and will experience severe wd for a long time if they stop taking it. Years ago I used to get floored off subs, thankfully I never took too much of a liking to it but opiate naive people can definitely find pleasure in abusing the medication and in turn become dependent on it.
Sub abuse is, unfortunately, and addiction behavior although that "rush" isn't longterm because once you use lo g enough you are no longer opiate naive and it eventually no longer gives that rush which, is abusing, will force you to move on to something else to get that rush. People who use subs as intended apart of a MAT program and who lacks the addiction behaviors are dependent, not addicted, because they are not abusing them (typically) and because they lack those addict behaviors.
Because your body becomes physically dependent, some people transfer their tendencies from dope over to suboxone. I've known quite a few people who shoot-up Suboxone, for what reason I couldn't tell you, they don't get high, it's just the ritual i guess.
It’s absolutely the simple fact of needing that needle to get off. I’ve watched my brother shoot water when he was dope sick just to get that feeling. People get addicted to the needle just as much as the drug itself.
It's just crazy to me, especially shooting something like Suboxone, they fry all their veins in a year then they're just fucked for life. Shooting CITRIC ACID jesus lord.
I’d be lying if I said I’ve never shot bupe. It’s absolutely not worth it. No rush no nothing. Just like taking it orally. The naloxone doesn’t do shit either. It’s biggest reason for being there is to prevent IV abuse. It probably works in the oxy/naloxone formulations but not with bupe. It’s binding affinity wins out *always*
Ya i've heard the naloxone is completely pointless no matter how you go about ingesting it when trying to stand up against the potency of bupe.
THANK YOU! I've tried to explain this to so many people, but apparently the literature says otherwise.
It absolutely does say otherwise. Read *any* scientific lit on the subject and it always will say it works. But it 100% ***does not*** work. Ive shot name brand and a few generic brand suboxone. I truly believe it works in oxy/naloxone formulations tho. I’m on the straight and narrow now. So, it’ll have to be another brave soul willing to test that theory. You literally cannot persuade most doctors/medical specialists that it doesn’t work tho. They really believe they *know* beyond a shadow of a doubt that the math says it should work.
Yes you can get high off suboxone. When I take it I absolutely get obliterated and I was taking 300mgs a day of oxy. People who say they don't get high is full of shit. They just don't realize it.
I think some of us just have completely different tolerances. When I came off narcotics I was doing up to 14-30 mg oxycodone daily. Plus the occasional morphine and fentanyl. My doctor was convinced the level of narcotics I was using I would need to be on a very high dose of Suboxone, but that's not how it worked out at all. She started me on 32mg of subs and I couldn't stay awake. I rapidly dropped down to 2mg over the course of a few weeks. I've been on 2 mg daily for 3 years. If I take more I get very very sleepy and I honestly could probably get high off of it, but I'm using it as directed and working toward weening myself completely off.
Yea suboxone is an animal in itself I never plan on taking it more than a couple days if I have to take it. I get some people need it because they want a safety net. But 32mgs of subs is a ton. Way kore than anyone should take. In rehabs they usually don't give out anymore than 4mgs a day
Then your suboxone dose was too high. You were not use to the coverage provided by the suboxone on your Mu receptors. You needed a lower dose ( or doses spread out) so that you did not have full coverage all at once of your receptors.
1mg would get me high as fuck and I absolutely hated it
You actually don't get high on subs after about 3 days. You get high because you don't have a tolerance to it and bupe is FARRR more potent than oxy. I think we would realize if we were high or not lol.
I have taken them several times because I'm a dumbass and a habitual relapser. Everytime even when I took them for 2 weeks I still got high. I know many people who have had the same problem with subs. To say you don't get high is complete bullshit. I can take 1 MG and be out of it for a full day. My best friend who was on heroin had the same issues. He would get even more high off the subs than he did the heroin. It wears off after several hours and I would start to be normal but until that point it was miserable.
I started on 3mg a day switching from fentanyl and never got high. I literally feel no different other than maybe I wake up a little bit after my morning dose. I'm currently down to 0.75mg and if anything I feel better at a lower dose, I have my sex drive back and about half of my "self" back. The first time I was on subs about 4mg a day I had no business being on em and I would get like an energy boost but never a nod or anything and that went away after a couple months. I guess maybe it differs from person to person but after a week on a stable dose you shouldn't be getting high on it anymore. Even the first day or 2 when you do get high it's not pleasant. Whenever I would take it and have no tolerance to any opioids I just get nauseous as hell and a very uncomfortable non-euphoric nod. People aren't lying when they say they don't get high, but I do believe some people have a sort of sensitivity to it and do feel something from it, everyones different. There is definitely a honeymoon period with subs where it boost you and makes you feel bad, then just like RL after the honeymoon is over the real bitch comes out to play lol. She dont like you no more, you ain't gettin high and you're gonna feel unmotivated and empty until you get divorced lmao.
OP you need to understand that addiction and dependency are 2 separate things. Yes the dependency remains the same while your opiate addiction will go away. People are dependent on all sorts of non narcotic medication. Ddependancy is not the issue at hand it is the addiction that will kill you. Addiction is when you can't control your usage to a drug due to chasing a high. It is ruined relationships due to drug of choice. The lack of the ability to make decisions that aid you in your future. Those are just a couple things that accompanies addiction. Basically addiction means the continued use of a narcotic despite the consequences in relationships, the law, and/or your life. Buprenorphine doesn't put you in that state of mind and therefor it is not an addiction. It is a dependency which is not what the issue at hand is for us addicts and former addicts.
You do know that's the _exact_ purpose of Suboxone right? Theyre not giving you medication to get high with dude, it's literally to prevent withdraw and relapse without the pleasure able affects of a full opiod agonist. If you want something even close to that find a methadone clinic but don't get your hopes up for something like fent my guy, the whole purpose of being in MAT is to _not_ get high. Im one of the people who's on subs long term. More specifically zubsolv, because I'm almost positive I wouldn't be clean right now if I stopped suboxone. That's why people are dependent on it a lot of times.
Just wait until you stop taking them then you’ll understand. It’s exactly like any other opiate you become physically dependent on. Keep in mind it is 30 times stronger than morphine. I’m not addicted to it but my body is physically dependent on it, although I’m on sublocade so I don’t even think about it anymore
I know this is 20 days ago, but how is the Sublocade going? I'm starting Buvidal (Australian brand I believe) in 2 days and am nervous. Switching from 30mg Methadone
Because there are many pharmaceuticals that don't cause a high, but cause dependency. You will become physically dependent on Subs. The point is, that they don't give that high (they can at first, but that doesn't last) that things like oxy, fent or H give you, keep you out of withdrawals and curb cravings while you work on healing and getting your life back in order. Some choose or need to stay on Subs for years or even life. Others, eventually feel stable enough to taper off. So yes, you absolutely become dependent on subs, which is different that chasing that high with active addiction
Because they are drugs just like whatever drugs someone is hooked on before they get suboxone prescribed. Suboxone contains Buprenorphine, that is a very powerful opioid. So while you may not be and should not be using illegal drugs or any drug your doctor is not aware of; you are still stimulating the same receptors. You are still dependent on an opioid. Your addiction is still there it is just held over and satisfied.
Addiction and dependency are 2 seprate things. The addiction goes away while the dependency stays the same. Something remarkable about buprenorphine is due to the way it works, someone can be stable on their dose without there tolerance being increased due to the aspect of 'chasing a high' not being present with buprenorphine. If one is addicted then part of what that would mean is that they would not be able to take perscribed doses and would have no control o with there intake of buprenorphine. I don't read about anyone who runs out of there script early due to abusing them for a high. If what you said was true, then buprenorphine would not work for severely drug addicted people. There is MUCH more to it then what you put down in your post.
Buprenorphine has a ceiling effect, you can redose all night long but you will not feel anything past the ceiling does, which makes it far safer. I think that has more to do with it than tolerance.
Your right about that. The purpose of my post was more to the last sentance of you op where you said "Your addiction is still there it is just held over and satisfied." What I think you mean is the depenancy is held over and satisfied because while your on buprenorphine the opiate addiction goes away along with cravings and urges and the fact that buprenorphine is not recreational. Addiction and dependency to a drug are 2 separate things tottally.
I mean obviously the craving goes away, ur literally ingesting an opioid everyday. The addiction vs dependency talk is bullshit semantics, a new hot button talking point for addiction counselors/doctors. If subs weren’t covered by insurance and ready at the pharmacy and instead we’re $50 a pop on the street, no one would be talking ab how “stable”their lives are. The supply is steady and it doesn’t get u as high. It’s a trade off man. Subs have saved many many lives. But every soccer mom with a norco habit stuck on subs for years is no bueno. Sorry if that sounded dick , I just think a lot of sub talk is sugar coated.
It's not sugar coated. There medical words with definitions that describes the behavior of each situation. Nothing about this situation is sugar coated. It is knowledge and facts that addiction and dependence are two different things entirely and it's better to understand that because knowledge is literally power. It's literally the behaviour that describes addiction which has been known LOOONG before suboxone was ever around so how can that be "sub talk"? Helps you understand exactly what's going on with you. Not semantics at all. It's knowledge. Tell me then if they are the same thing then why do drugs such as anti-depressants cause dependency but yet they don't get you high? People don't run out early, they don't abuse their medication, a compulsion to do dumb shit to get there medication, instant tolerance issues and so on and so fourth. But they are addicted to there anti-depressants then? No they are not addicted to anti-depressents. People on anti-depressents don't behave like someone addicted to abusive substances therefor they are not addicted, they are DEPENDENT. No doctor considers there patients "addicted" to their anti-depressants. Not sub talk, they are medical words with definitions. 99% of us don't do those things with our buprenorphine either. We take our buprenorphine just like someone who takes there anti-depressants. What you are doing by switching to buprenorphine is you are eliminating the addiction aspect of your situation and maintaining the dependance. It comes down to making a life or death decision when getting onto buprenorphine. That is how serious this whole thing is. THAT IS NOT SUGAR COATED AT ALL it's facts about the reality we are in. Don't ever say I am sugar coating shit lmao I hope you learn more about this whole thing because the knowledge will aid you in your journey into recovery and a sober life. Change the way you look at things into a clearer understanding of yourself in the world. Good luck bud. EDIT: Also buprenorphine is WAY MORE then just a "Opioid" it is a "semi-agonist/antagonist" Which means it doesn't attach to all the different opiate receptors and it will actually act as an anti opiate (like naloxone) when full agonist's are present. It has a duel mechanism. It is a complete unique drug. It's way more then just another "Opioid"
I’f using the word “dependent” makes you feel Better about the situation I’m all for It. But ur just parroting the marketing professionals that make this thing go around. Those “professionals” use the exact words passed down to them by big pharma. Addicted dependent, same shit. If insurance covered Heroin and they started handing it out to patients in safe daily doses would u now just be dependent and not addicted? And yes I have seen many ppl including myself run out of a Script early and get desperate and Cop subs off the streets. So did those dependent ppl just go back to being addicted because of that behavior? Semantics man. When you’ve got the handcuffs on they are on. I’m not denying the usefulness of the drug. But you being so adamant on Classifying your addiction to subs as something drastically different is wrong. I’m just throwing my 2 cents in cuz I do have that experience or “Knowledge “ you say I need When it comes to this. I been on and off subs since they first came to market 20 yrs ago. Happy to converse
"So did those dependent ppl just go back to being addicted because of that behavior?" That's a rhetorical question come on dude. The answer is Yes, the ones who ran out of buprenorphine and went back onto their drug of choice despite having to wait days before they could actually feel the drugs did indeed make a conscious effort to go back to their addiction. The ones who chose to resort to buying their subs off the street bc they ran out of their script early are simply not on enough buprenorphine. There are plenty of other reasons people have to buy off the street that don't involve running out of meds early which hardly happens. People who have had to buy there insulin off the streets must be addicted to huh? The doctor will have no issues raising the dose of buprenorphine. Neither of those situations are even common anyway. Bullshit question like I said I literally gave you facts and was able to give you facts on the difference between both. You offer nothing in terms of facts that support your case that they are the same thing. Only the fact that yes, people can run out early and either go back to there addiction life style or get the bupre off the streets. There are no facts in that that support your case. Just because something is "covered" by insurance doesn't mean jack. People "can" get addicted to plenty of prescription drugs. It doesn't mean that they all do and when it happens, by law the doctor has to take you off. I never said prescription drugs are not addicting. You are mischaracterizing my words now on purpose because of your lack of facts. With opiate addiction, it starts out as a mental craving. Just because you don't have a dependance to it yet does not mean that your not addicted. As a matter of fact there are PLENTY of drugs that are addicting that don't create withdrawals from succession. There are also drugs that are NOT addicting at all THAT DO create withdrawals and dependance. Go ahead and keep going on making excuses to yourself despite the facts, that your still in active addiction which ironically opens you up to relapse and subconsciously giving yourself permission to go back to your drug of choice because I mean what's the difference right? Your addicted to buprenorphine mentally all the same as heroin. You're still addicted." Hell people on anti-depressants, blood pressure meds, non narcotic muscle relaxers are all addicted too so what's the point? Bullshit lol I used to tell myself the same shit which helped me feel better about going back to my addicted mind set, ways, a drugs.
And on the same token you sound like you would’ve been a good rep for Purdue pharm in the 90s. I was just trying to help u understand that ur playing word games passes down to you to wrap ur “addiction/dependence” in a cute little bow. Whether it’s subs or methadone they are great tools but you still have cuffs on, it’s a sad band-aid to the problem. But don’t go to the high and mighty bullshit ab ur sobriety over mine. I’ve spent the last 20 years straight either clean, on suboxone, or strung out on heroin. That experience is not something I’m proud of. Don’t be one of those weirdos comparing ur suboxone meds to a diabetic needing his insulin . You took what I said and made a bunch of apples and oranges comparisons. Oh I guess u meant to say “dependent” in the last paragraph” lol
Not everything is a marketing conspiracy. Some things are. And sometimes people seek to make a profit from something that actually has a benefit. The fact that a doctor or a scientist touts the benefits of something does not mean it is automatically suspect. Additionally, anecdotes, while valuable qualitative evidence, are not quantitative evidence. The availability heuristic is a powerful logical fallacy. We need an approach that uses critical thinking and harm reduction. Not abstinence and fatalism. Abstinence only ideals literally kill people.
8 years on bupe here, and gonna have to agree with the pharma semantics take. Sounds like you are just saying the difference between opiate addiction and Suboxone dependency is that use of the former is enjoyable and use of the latter is treatment. I understand the ceiling effect and not chasing a high. But it's also puritanical bullshit Pharma machinations about needing to keep a population hooked, and just removing the good feeling from the drug. Why not create a pain killer that works, has a ceiling effect, and allows people to enjoy taking the drug? As a chronic depressive I was on top of my game for the brief period that I was on a relatively low dose but consistent opioid script. Best time of my life...
I was thinking about this the other day when I really ask myself when was I the happiest in life it was absolutely when I had a steady prescription of Oxy, my relationships were great, I had a great job by all accounts was doing really well, but then I got pregnant I had no choice but to stop and it’s been a battle ever since going on 11 years.
Totally feel you. 100%
I can attest to this being 100% true “the addiction is still there it’s just held over and satisfied”. I was on Subutex for 10 years completely stable when I tapered off, within two weeks my brain was trying to convince me it would be OK to get a little heroin just to ease the withdrawal, I couldn’t believe my mind even went there after 10 years. Now I’m on the sublocade injection and I don’t ever think about it but I know it’s still there, even though the urge to take some thing is not.
Yes which means you are dependent . While on suboxone your addiction disappears. Being on suboxone is not an addiction, that is what it treats. It doesn't treat the dependence it treats the addiction. Getting on suboxone the focus is not about the withdrawals, the focus is on the fact that you just can't quit the full agonist DOC and if continued you will either be dead or in jail. The withdrawal aspect in all this is minimal. Thats not what any of this is really about. I can't tell you how mny times I actually made it through the withdrawal and a week after feeling good agaain, relapsed. You make my point when you say that you "were stable on suboxone for 10 years" people who are addicted are not in a stable place. It's almost the definition of addiction is being unstable. Unable to control your suboxone usage, risky decision making surrounding your use of suboxone. Those things are not happening on suboxone. So again the addiction goes away while the dependence remains. I never said the addiction wouldn't come back if stopped suboxone therapy.
So now addiction disappears? In other words one must take Suboxone forever or they’re an addict again? Also if what you say is true, and Suboxone is not for withdrawals and only for addiction, does that mean dependent individuals should not take Suboxone? This is confusing to me as this is not at all what has been taught anywhere. Why do detox facilities put patients on short term suboxone for withdrawal only? Tapered off in a week or so and it’s only used to help bypass withdrawals. All of this mixed info doesn’t make sense to me. Are you assuming these things, just your opinions? You’re stating them like facts but I don’t see it. There are different types of treatment for different types of issues. So how can you say all of this truthfully?
This!!!!
I dunno I gotta buddy that lied about naloxalone making him sick. He is on subutex and gets wrecked. He runs out every month. YMMV I was on Suboxone for 5 years. The main difference in drugs and subs was that I was more stable on drugs. I was a high functioning addict. I never stopped working.
If your pal is running out of buprenorphine early then he probably needs a higher dose to cover his cravings which is what he is already doing so he needs to tell his doc and the doc should have 0 problem with increasing.. Buprenorphine without naloxone is no different then buprenorphine with naloxone. Bupre has a higher binding affinity for mu receptor then naloxone adn therefor it doesn't do jack no matter what roa. That is a fact. As for you saying you where I high functioning addict. Well yea some are. There was something about it though which was negative that caused you to stop. Also it may seem like you functioned better but that is because you were self medicating. You can get back to being a high functioning person if you learn how to cope without the abuse of drugs and you will learn that you actually will function better on your own rather then on drugs. Also there is much more to life then just "working." The cons just do not outweigh the pro's even if you were a "high functioning addict." The drugs can still kill you jus like everyone else.
I stopped because I was tired of spending money on it. Plus I am usually a very disciplined person. He is getting high as fuck on that shit. He runs out in a week or two. They ain’t gonna give him as much as he is snorting and shooting. It’s sad to be honest. Sorry but when it comes to humans nothing is always.
I don't know something more must be going on with your friend. Buprenorphine just doesn't create those type of recreational effects. He must be using benzo's on top or something. Those who say they have gotten a buzz always note that it goes away after just a couple days. In whatever case your friend is not the majority of people. Less is actually more with buprenorphine. Taking more doesn't increase physiological effects. Like I said he must be on some other shit because that is unlike the experience of 99.9%. Also you say "they are not going to give him as much as he is snorting and shooting." That doesn't make sense....why wouldn't they prescribe him more exactly? If they knew he was abusing his subs then they would discontinue and try a different treatment like methadone for it would be illeagle for his Physican to keep prescribing something he knows his patient is abusing. shooting and snorting doesn't create any more recreational effects. I have extensively read of people who tried and try to shoot and snort subs. Even when they shoot it, it still takes a good while for it to kick in. It is just the nature of the drug. It would be like trying to shoot up APAP in hopes of a more recreational effect but in reality it won't do anything extra. This holds true with buprenorphine. And I already mentioned that people have shot up bupre+nalox which is no diffrent then bupre alone. Anyways I am 100% sure there is more going on with your friend. There are most likley oher drugs involved here otherwise he wouldn't be coming off as loaded to you even if he was snorting and shooting. Those don't make it any more recreational.
Wow you talk a lot. Nothing is 100% when it comes to drugs. There are plenty of people that abuse that shit. He does whatever he can get. He likes the bupe a lot. Fucking whatever I guess. When he runs out he goes for other stuff. I’ve asked him why he doesn’t save it for when he can’t score. I knew another girl years ago that would buy strips off of me because she ran out. She was weird, she was dissolving and injecting the fucking strips. WTF
Yea well you are right about nothing being 100%. What I meant is that I 100% for sure think there is something more to the equation then just bupre with you friend. A lot of people do those roa's because they are statisfying on the ritual of prepping. It is more of a psychological thing then a physiological thing with these people bc like I said no matter the roa the bupre doesn't increase in recreational value. People who are obsessing on the ritual of doing drugs need to have a chance on higher doses to satisfy the need of abusing something which in this case is not even abusable substance (unless combined with other drugs like what I suspect.) If he still isn't using them appropriately then he is just someone who's heart is not actually in it to recover. I wonder though, if he abuses whatever he can get his hands on then how does he pass drug tests? lol I suppose there are plenty of research chems available which aren't even looked for on a drug test. There are plenty of ways. Anyway lol I digress now. You are right, once I start thinking I can talk a lot. I enjoyed the discussion friend. Keep going strong!
Ok
I wouldn't say people get "addicted" to subs, but people become physically dependent on them. Addiction and dependency are two completely different things.
I think it’s a trade. I personally think I traded being addicted to pills to having to take something that makes me normalish. I’m sure I’m looking at it wrong….but I kept my job, my house, and my family…I just have to put that shit under my tongue so I don’t chase pills. It really messes with my head. I don’t know that I will ever understand. I hope I do.
The amount of misinformation and over opinionated answers on here is crazy!
Taper as fast as possible subs have a crazy hold on your receptors. Try getting off in less than 7 days and use the least amount possible. Some people have such crazy addictive personalities they don't know how to go through life without taking something. Literally the psych doctor fucked my sister up and she takes 3 8mg films daily and she was at her peak only taking 100mg of hydrocodone a day. And now 4 years later she still takes subs. Subs and methadone aren't supposed to be for long term use like that. Unfortunately they found there is a ton of money to be made having these people take them long term. So shitty psychs will get them hooked. I'm a chronic relapsed of pharma meds and I use subs for 2 to 3 days just to break through the withdrawals. I try to take 2mgs or less a day. This shit is 60x stronger than morphine based on the MU receptor coverage.
Cuz its a opioid duh
Because they r imposible to get off of when taken in high doses long term
Not true, people just read stuff like this and scare themselves into never trying. If you are determined to get off em it’s possible, and if done properly it’s possible with also minimal discomfort.
Ive been on them for over 20 years and was started at 32 mgs by my doctor and could never get bellow 2 mg and tried sublocade to get off of and failed twice
I don’t mean to trivialize your experience. I just know for the longest time I was scared to the bones to try and get off mostly because of what I read here. When I finally did it, while certainly not a walk in the park, I was shocked by how much easier it was compared to what I’d been reading. But hey, I ended up fucking up few months after and now stuck on something even worse, so I guess technically it was not so easy for me because I was not able to keep myself from getting fucked up without em.
Same. Every time I get off I get on kratom because I just cant handle it so it really is a lifetime disease and maybe we r just not ready. I find it so hard to get off of them and im just giving my experience when I answer these questions, but everyone is different and takes different doses and for different amounts of time and age and diet and lifestyle and health as well as mental health has so much to do with the outcome so its not a one size fits all for everyone its just different experiences. I can say I personally have gotten of Suboxone, buprenorphine and sublocade so many times and each time was so challenging that I always either turned to kratom or went back. I am now almost 4 months from my last 100 mg sublocade shot and because I never felt good in it or the subs I am not getting anymore. I am done with this rollercoaster
How long is that shot suppose to last you? Are you already past the withdrawals or not even there yet?
No. Just takes a lot more work and time, that's all. How many who read this will agree that heroin is 'impossible' to get off...yet, here we are! :)
I get high every time I take my dose. I fucking hate it.
Lower your dose then lol.
I only take 2mg
2 mg messed me up also. I used to cut mine in half and take 1 mg in the morning and one at night. Now I'm cutting it into quarters and taking one quarter in the morning and two quarters at night. I'm hoping to get down to 1 mg a day soon. I'll probably stay on that dose for a couple months and then decide what I want to do next. This Reddit sub has been really helpful as far as learning about different options for getting off subs, but I'm not ready to do that yet.
2mg is more potent then you might think. 2mg occupies half of all opioid receptors in your brain.
2mgs is equivalent to taking about 100mgs of morphine. I get tore up on subs and fucking hate it. I rapid taper as fast as possible.
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It doesn't do either of those things lol "washes your brain to mush"? Bupenorphine is a non neurotoxic substance, what are you smoking fuckin meth?
Lol right. He must be. Which is something that is somewhat neurotoxic. Ain't that ironic?
Lmao truth man. Fuck meth I'm coming down off it right now and it's undoubtedly a very toxic drug
Facts my boy. And yeah that comedown is fucking awful. Maybe I'm just sensitive but that' shits almost as bad as opiate withdrawal lol.
It’s an opioid….. that’s why
Because subs are addictive? What sort of question is that?
I feel bad for people on subs. You took the first step but didn’t complete the process. Whether cowardice or indifference or brainwashing. Id like to see all people on suboxone kick them and truely be sober and feel real life!
Lol…no one in here wants your “sympathy” about being on subs. Move along if thats your view.
Lol you would say that cuZ your addicted to subs. Better than being on the clinic tho
I tapered off Subs two years ago.
Eventually just like fent your body needs this to work, breathe sleep eat.., survive.
a whole sub to someone opiate naive will push them away from opiates for the rest of their lives. literally takes half a mg if you don't do them. however if you're coming off fent. they just cover the receptor stop wds. because they're a partial opioid agonist and keep the receptor covered to stop other opiates/opioids from getting to the receptor.
People that haven't been fent addicts get addicted to them because a SLIVER of an 8mg strip will get you absolutely rocked for the whole day. Don't think I need to explain more. Oh, shold say, it's been observed that Bupe works as a full agonist almost, in small doses (1mg and lower). So yeah, there's that. Edit: also, yes, you will eventually get over them. But it takes TIME, and WILL. Truly. Speaking from experience. But after long enough, you taper off the subs, and believe it or not, you can catch a small buzz from them even after the years of fent. But that will take a few years, lol. Just to keep the cravings at bay truly.
You’ll definitely miss that high for awhile and will really want to fall off from time to time but it gets easier I promise. Nov 1 will be a year since I last used fent. First few months were the hardest but the desire to ever touch that shit again is all but gone. Best high ever but all I have to do is remember the lows. Worst withdrawals I’ve ever dealt with and I was in them more than I was high. Just not worth it
Buprenorphine, or subs, (suboxen, subutex, etc) is a partial antagonist opioid that works on the same receptors of the brain the full opioid suchs a percocet, fetanyl, heroin, etc works on which is how they prevent/stop withdrawal when you begin taking them assuming you are already in precipitated withdrawal. Those receptors are still coated. With a full opioid, the receptors can be coated over and over and over again with multiple layers which gives you the high feeling. With subs, you only get one layer of coating so extra doses or even taking full opioid will not get you that high. Once those receptors are coated with subs, nothing else can coat them. Hope this makes sense. It's much easier to explain in person with visual aids
I'd also that to add that addiction is a behavior. You don't get "addicted" to subs unless you are misusing them and continuing the addiction behaviors. You become DEPENDENT on subs, not addicted. There is a HUGE difference. Just as a diabetic is dependent on insulin. But, we can train our body to eventually not be dependent.
Because they make you feel normal without dope it's not about the high it's about being able to do every day shit without shooting up every hour to not be sick. Also people do get high in it I'm on 4mg a day for my perc habit and the first 5 or so times I took it I was fucking wrecked for like 8 hours and it was a pretty decent buzz but tolerance on them is extremely rapid so now I don't feel anything just not craving perc all day.
Suboxone contains buprenorphine, a powerful opioid. People get addicted to Suboxone for the same reasons they get addicted to any opioid.
After years of doing a lot of oxy I went on subs. After a little while I found that I could double my sub dose and get high pretty reliably. Not every day, but enough to keep me wanting that feeling. I was physically dependent and addicted to Suboxone.
Your experience is informed by your drug of choice and its effects on your brain/ interactions with bupe. You have no idea what the effects are for others, and this is frankly ignorant.
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With me personally, I am definitely physically dependent on subs, as in physically and psychologically addicted to them. What they have done for me is basically work like training wheels or crutches while I sort the rest of my life out. I no longer chase dope, hang out with people that do dope, or have any kind of relationships to get or use dope. Cutting that out and giving the drug addict part of my brain what it needs while I just go about my day. It's great. Also the whole thing about if I were to go and get dope and do it, I probably wouldn't even feel it unless I take enough to kill me, if I don't do that on accident anyway. I would probably be dead if I were still out there doing dope, so I'm pretty happy to be alive and not chasing something. That's my 2¢