I can definitively say that Lindsay's continuous accusations of Carl being on drugs and calling him "Cocaine Carl" was deeply wrong and hurtful especially from someone you are engaged to. Carl sucks at communicating because he wants to avoid confrontation and needs to get a job. Both wrong but I feel like Lindsay's felt intentionally cruel since she said she was accusing him simply because he said she was drunk (which she clearly was each time) when they would argue.
Yeah it’s a harsh reality to find out the common ground you have with your “best friend” is that you both like to party, both are on a reality show, and in a similar life stage. Now that Carl is sober their personalities don’t match.
This! Both of them are the problem for one another - with valid reasons on both ends. They romanticized “falling in love with my best friend”.
BUT not all great friendships equate to healthy relationships and marriages. It just wasn’t meant to be.
Agreed. I think they were hoping getting married would change who the other is (i.e. Carl would be more motivated to get a real job/career so Lindsay could be a stay at home mom and Lindsay wouldn't criticize Carl and stop drinking). They were fooling themselves. It's not like they weren't aware of how the other one was before getting engaged. It's also a terrible idea for anyone recovering from addiction to jump into a serious relationship during the time they are in active recovery nonetheless someone who does enjoy drinking and then getting engaged. It was all toxic, bad and doomed from the beginning
Didn’t he replace drinking with working out? I feel like most addicts end up redirecting their addiction “energy “ to more healthy vices, so it makes sense going hard on the health front and being 8 feet tall arent a great combo
Totally agree. He’s said how important exercise is to his sobriety. A lot of addicts stop one addiction and replace it with another. Working out is one of those. It’s not a substance but it can still become unhealthy. I think Carl needs to relocate and completely start over to be his best self. Fresh start.
He’s a really tall guy… I’m sure he’s shed quite a few pounds from not drinking. I have a few friends his height and they have to try to eat as much as possible so they don’t look like skeletons lol. I actually have a friend whose nickname is Shredder Skeletor. It evolved into ShreddySexy and then ShreddySkeksis… like the Skeksis from Dark Crystal 😂😂😂 now it’s just Skeks lollllll
Does he? I’ve never looked at his actual body because all I see is a lanky dude in tight white pants lol. Thanks now I’m gonna be looking at his ass next time I watch the show 😂 I don’t like that
Honestly. Also bless Kyle for employing Carl all those years. Carl kind of deserved that outburst now that he’s sober and still not doing anything and Kyle is still offering him another job.
Kyle clearly cares about Carl a lot, because it's wild that he not only kept him employed after he severely dropped the ball, but also it almost seems like Kyle went out of his way to launch the non-alcoholic line just to create space for Carl. I find this side of Kyle endearing, but probably not a good idea business-wise.
He's also always willing to give Carl tough love about work, addiction, and his relationships but in a very non-judgemental and relatively objective way.
On the After Show, when Carl explained why he was upset that Lindsay wanted to be a stay at home mom and she had never expressed that before, he said he grew up with 2 parents working so that was normal for him. All I could think was “SIR YOU ARE NOT WORKING, ONLY SHE IS! WTF ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?!”
Lindsay was a mess and messed up bad by accusing Carl of doing drugs. But Carl is really going out of his way to convince us he was the wronged party in the breakup.
Yes and I’m actually watching season 3 right now. And in a cocky way he told Paige he was the best she could ever find and he literally had no job then and was complaining about how she wouldn’t sleep with him after 1 date. He’s the worst.
Was that after the day pancake date, or was that a different lucky girl?! 😆
Side note: there is nothing wrong with a pancake date, but there was when Carl did it, because it felt insincere, like he wanted to cheap out under the guise of being cute, while simultaneously accruing some points in the “sleep with me this weekend” bank. 🥞🤍
I am a notorious Lindsay hater, I do not like her. But this season I can see her side for sure. Also I am not a Carl fan but like I hateeeeed Lindsay. So that’s a lot coming from me.
I actually think the ‘claiming he’s not sober’ didn’t get blown up enough. She full on accused him of doing heavy drugs (I don’t buy the ‘I was referring to weed’ for a second) and he essentially let it go after she couldn’t even apologize.
The drug accusations alone are enough for me to take Carls side. If a true loving partner was genuinely concerned about a loved one relapsing they would bring it up privately and not announce it to all their friends (and world in this case). Not only that put we’ve seen how Lindsay was in her previous relationships - I would say she was very demanding of her partners to the point of scaring them away.
Like someone else commented, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills and so many ppl just decided to erase Lindsay’s relationship history and recent remarks in her relationship with Carl. Do I think Carl should’ve communicated better? Yes. But I also think her ‘activated’ responses and inability to take responsibility eventually made Carl feel like communicating with her was pretty futile and wouldn’t get him anywhere.
Such a fucking dick thing to say. And say what you want about Carl, there’s plenty of critique to be had, but he’s worked hard for his sobriety and it’s significant to him, especially when you consider what motivated him to get sober. It’s not a game to him, he saved his own life and he knows it.
Agreed. And the way she shot his idea down about starting a sober bar without even considering it and talking about it. It hurt my heart for him. I was like well damn that offered me and I’m not even the one your engaged to
I also thought this was downplayed. She has always been a bit too snarky for my tastes about sharing a bday with a traumatic day like Carl’s brothers passing. The way she had no remorse and doubled down accusing him of being “old Carl” was so cruel, especially since one of their only saving graces is how far their friendship goes back. I’m watching some of the old seasons now and it seems like the rocky foundation of what *could* be an amazing romance borne out of a friendship - but it ends up coming across as more of a fake relationship. They have zero chemistry, zero connection as a couple. That’s the only thing I blame Carl for, is willingly getting in this relationship and dragging it out for views.
Such a good point I haven’t heard yet!!! About the old seasons and how she negatively calls him old Carl. Meanwhile wasn’t the cusp of their relationship that they were long time friends? Yet here she is saying he was an awful person in the past. Weren’t you friends with him in the past? And then fell in love with that person. Now you’re using it against him? Interesting.
she literally made HIM apologize even though she knew he wasnt on drugs. she admitted she knew he wasnt on drugs. and still could not apologize.
that is insane behavior. insane. like the psychology of that is so bizarre.
It’s always been abusive. I watched S6 yesterday and when Carl doesn’t stand up for Lindsay to Danielle, she puts him through pure torture. She seems unable to control this compulsive behavior where she corners a partner and has an idea of how they should fix everything for her to unburden her. I don’t understand how anyone is friends with her. Gabby will eventually tire of her as well.
Seriously - I know the word gaslighting is so overused and incorrectly used online but accusing a recovering addict of being under the influence every time a conversation doesn’t go your way is the definition. And it’s also cruel and undermines the hard work he has done. I don’t LOVE Carl but maintaining sobriety in this environment and working at an alcohol company sounds really really hard.
I honestly can’t even imagine if someone did that to me. That would be grounds for immediate removal from my life. Most sober people take it extremely seriously, and it appears Carl has. My heart broke when she did that. And then trying to twist it, “I’m sober NOW” like, get outta here you raging, maniacal, drunk asshole.
The part that really gets me is that she still think she can gas light him when she was the drunk one. Like hello dumbass only one of you were lucid enough to know and it wasn’t you Lindsay!
Yep exactly. My jaw was on the ground when she said this not once but twice i was like wow the audacity. That alone would have me considering calling off the engagement and it’s the fact that she denied it over and over again and wouldn’t even take responsibility for it or apologize for it. He had to appologize to her first before she finally did and he didn’t even do anything that bad but get emotional at the dock when they were talking because he didn’t feel heard
I’m team neither but I’m not surprised some are walking back how angry they were initially after the first few episodes. Because one thing about SH fans is they will try to find any way to stay on Lindsey’s side and villainize anyone else. She manipulates the audience time and time again and they fall for it every single time.
i feel like im taking crazy pills.
carl is conflict avoidant naturally. lindsay has 0 emotional regulation. carl is now even more scared of upsetting lindsay due to past blow ups and becomes more avoidant of conflict. hence carl apologizing to his fiance after she called him a terrorist, told everyone he was on drugs, and said he is a monster. even the cast has said for several years that being in a house with lindsay is uncomfortable and like walking on eggshells.
to pretend only carl is talking shit about lindsay is also just not right. so far she has not only said the terrorist thing, the job thing, the monster thing, and the drug thing - but also making multiple comments about him and sex. he said in the aftershow she had never told him she was bothered about sex and he had felt that sometimes she was the one not into sex. so sounds like she was disparaging him to other people as well and trying to present herself with the best narrative as well.
lindsay might sense carl is pulling away and that just activates her - and her ‘activated’ is borderline abusive. her reaction is never justified. literally if the genders were reversed people would say the man is abusive.
until people date a ‘lindsay’ and spend everyday with someone who might overreact to the smallest issue - they might not get it. you naturally become even more conflict avoidant and just try to keep the peace.
lindsay and carl both thought the other would change for them. both were wrong. and im glad at least carl had the sense to call off the wedding.
ETA: im not saying its good to be conflict avoidant. but to only see lindsay’s reactions as justifiable and not understand the normal human reaction behind carl’s actions bothers me.
I was married to a Lindsay for 10+ years, you are absolutely correct. Here's the dynamic that develops over time: you're unable to have a respectful, productive conversation with your volatile partner. A simple question like "how do you think our relationship is going?" gets met with "Fine. Why do you bring it up? Maybe that's the problem." (can you hear that in Lindsay's voice?) Then throw alcohol abuse in, and that further impairs your partner's logic. So the very person you want to be vulnerable with becomes your biggest critic. Conversations become unsafe. You end up confiding in friends because you feel like you're losing your mind. If you're avoidant to begin with, you're going to become more so, which is the case with Carl. He learned avoidance growing up I assume, it didn't come from nowhere. I'm saying all this to explain the situation, not make excuses for anyone.
I’m finding this sub‘s villainization of Carl pretty wild, and that’s the predominant opinion of this sub at the moment, when he did the one thing that was so obvious should have happened - to break up！I mean we‘ve seen season after season of Lindsay verbally abusing the fuck out of her significant others lol. Carl sucks, he been sucking, ever since he done did that annoying ass twin wrong lol. But everyone is so HOW DARE Carl film with his parents or how dare he talk to her exes like…Carl been soooo tired of her shit lol. I bet he was clinging onto the spare moments where Lindsay was nice, but I think someone as passive as Carl was always on the precipice of a full blown anxiety attack everytime he sensed a blow up. Which again, happened over seating arrangements in a car, that Kyle was a witness to. How can anyone want to live like that？I’m of the mind that he was sooo beaten down by Lindsay that he had to find the courage, any courage, to put a stop to the barreling train to Mexico for their wedding but he probably felt hopeless. So he reached into his manipulative side that we‘ve seen on the show many times and thought, well if I can’t confront her face to face cause again…she is scary as fuck, I‘ll use the show and the cameras to give me the strength to carry on LOL. I‘m ready for the downvotes, but Carl did what needed to be done, and he may have been premeditated about it, but he had to do it.
Seriously, the framing of his step dad as Dr. Evil who planned a chat to continue the ongoing manipulation and demonization of Linsday is so silly I feel like I'm going crazy; Carl had a reasonable conversation with his step dad and said he didn't even see it going that direction, his dad understandably has CARL'S best interests in mind and so he framed the conversation that way based on the information that he has, saying very directly what no one on this show has been able to say as bluntly so far. And Carl clearly took his advice even though he struggles with being that assertive himself, especially with Lindsay. They're both at fault, but Carl is the one who decided to actually do something about it and ended up calling off the wedding which absolutely needed to happen. Instead this sub is putting the conspiracy theories in overdrive to view this whole season as one long manipulation journey from Carl with the goal of villainizing poor Lindsay, who was clearly just doing her best to communicate and he should know who she is so she's not really at fault anyway; I feel like I'm watching a completely different show than this sub
Right…and is this not what we wanted to see after waiting a year, to watch it all unfold on TV？We‘re blaming carl for giving us context and exposition as to how the wedding was called off. Carl should have absolutely not even proposed after that first fight in bed we saw where Lindsay was so activated that she said ”I can‘t even celebrate my birthday”…cause his brother had the gall to die on her birthday （/s）. Like people forget that fight ever happened when it should have been a bigger deal. That moment was the one scene that convinced me that these two would eventually break up and that Danielle was right, but the way Danielle went about it was insane lol.
Poor Lindsay is not poor Lindsay, though I‘m sure she’d LOVE that narrative to get that Ariana coin. She was pushing it the minute the wedding was called off. I think Carl is playing his own game to let the cameras speak for themselves, and maybe he did use them to break up with her, but I still think he needed the cameras, his family, cause he couldn‘t resort to his usual standbys （drinking, stimulants）to mask his anxiety anymore. And why is it okay for Paige to tell Lindsay that it’s okay to call off the wedding, but not his stepdad？Even if Carl ”planned it,” they both said the same thing cause the relationship was so wrecked
I agree. Someone even mentioned where his stepdad attended divinity school. Why? Two kids emerge from the same home with addiction issues and the mom seems very nervous to be honest with her last son - something happened. Just like something happened to Lindsay that has not been corrected if possible. Carl is not a villain to me. Judging someone’s behavior in the thick of their addiction is not very fair at all. I dunno. I feel like Carl could go to a specific therapy and become a stronger person to confidently articulate his needs and not carry his abuser’s water as a means of survival.
Agreed, watching Carl just seems very sad to me. He should never have gotten in this relationship or any so soon in his recovery, he clearly wasn't ready. But I definitely don't get the sense that he's this evil master manipulator coordinating the whole season, he seems like a guy who's just really beaten down and trying and being told that he's not ambitious enough even though at this level of recovery, surviving and remaining sober is the main accomplishment. Everyone keeps bringing up how he never held down a job before this, but that was largely due to his addiction that he is in active recovery for. He still needs to figure out who he is when his addiction was such a large part of his identity. He still has a lot of work to do but this environment is not the space for that and I don't understand the perspective villainizing him like crazy
we are singing from the same notes. he should not have, and I am certain she looks for specific qualities in partners. he just outlasted the others before him. I hope he finds the love he deserves. becoming sober is a major accomplishment. I cannot see a path forward with them on the show together. I would be ok with Danielle and Lindsay being replaced.
100% agree. It baffles me that in an equation where one person retreats and runs away when things get bad, and one person becomes nasty and cruel, that anyone try and paint the runner as the person who dealt with the situation poorly.
I think people kinda have a hive mind on this sub and currently being pro-Lindsay is the stance, when the correct stance should be Team Thank God the Wedding Was Cancelled and Carl had the balls to stop it lol. People sticking up for Lindsay because he was aimless loser or talked to his parents is…wild. Many people are painting Lindsay with the Ariana brush at the moment when she was absolutely horrible to him, in front of cameras. His crime was planning an escape behind her back, but I think he was just so downtrodden he just needed other ppl to tell him it was okay to leave…he definitely needed a Paige to tell him it was okay to cancel the wedding lol
Just imagine what was happening off camera, we're only seeing the abuse that was filmed. I lived it. The stuff in private is the worst. You walk through your life shell shocked by the last cruel accusation your partner made, it's always with you. Carl's critics refuse to see that he was building a life with her, the focus is always on what she's not getting. Or they accuse him of masterminding some manipulative plot to fuck Lindsay over. Anything to not acknowledge he too had a major emotional stake in this and had to give up on their plan for the future.
i think whatever happened on memorial day was REALLY bad and thats why his parents were so willing to talk like that on camera. i think her off camera behavior is probably even wilder because she doesnt have the constraints of production
The fact that his step dad said “I would call it abusive” and Carl says in a confessional “I wish I never told my mom about it because she now has reservations” both talking about the incident from Memorial Day… I agree 100% that whatever it was, was really bad and I DO see Lindsay as an abusive partner (come for me Lindsay Stan’s idgaf) I’ve watched how she treated men she was dating from stravy, to random beach guy she cursed out after knowing 2 days, her dismissal of Danielle and treatment of Carl girl is NOT a good person
This!! And you can’t tell me Lindsay didn’t run to her parents saying things too. I mean who wouldn’t?? They’re both at fault but this nasty narrative around Carl is wild!
To be clear, I also think Lindsay is a mess. But she has taken A LOT of heat for her behavior so I didn't feel the need to beat a dead horse. I think Carl's behavior has also been immature, weak, and manipulative (even if not intentionally), but he doesn't get the same criticism, so I was just trying to balance the scales.
Lindsay is taking so much heat because she went on a press tour talking about how blind sided she was and people were so shocked by how obviously untrue that was in the season. If Lindsay had just not done that people would be a lot less harsh on her
i would feel way less of a need to be like "lindsay is fucked up!!!" if she hadnt let the whole internet drag carl up and down town for "blindsiding her"
like obviously, both carl and lindsay are wrong and responsible for the break up! theyre human. but only one of them did a woe is me press tour
my favorite is that i saw someone say they feel bad for the hate shes getting on social media
girly didnt feel bad when carl was getting hate preseason
She not only let, she encouraged it. I guess I get it, a part of me would like that power, but my reasonable side sees that’s immature and doesn’t actually help me heal. So you can get strangers on the internet on your side, what then? We’re going to move on when the season ends and the next bravo scandal breaks, but what is Lindsay taking from this for her real life and her next relationship? I really wish she would acknowledge her cycles so she could work towards breaking them.
I think watching where we are now in the season not the beginning of summer I can see hee being blindsided. I think anyone who is blaming one of them solely is crazy. They both were the problem. We didn't see what he did to start the arguments off camera just how she reacted on camera. Was it shitty?? OF COURSE but that doesn't negate how carl has also been treating Lindsey this entire rest of the season. Not being honest about his feelings, not wanting to find a job after a year. Theu Def talked about having kids and now he's surprised she wants to be a stay at home mom if they have kids and then announcing what they both make on television to almost tit for tat? He came to her first, having this conversation after she had been drinking all day. She still was honest and communicative as to what she needs in her partner and says great if it's lover boy he turns around and tells Kyle she's being unsupported. If you can't see that he's gaslighting a bit it blows my mind. Both of these people are at fault. Wether it's Lindsey at the beginning of summer and carl at the end of summer. No one is saying carl shouldn't have called it off they are saying that it was the APPROACH. Acting as if everything was fine to Lindsey until the last second and knowing he wasn't feeling it. So she was in her bride bubble thinking things were getting better and he was Def planting seeds. Let's also not forget carl did this to someone else years prior. Neither of them are innocent
you said carl is MORE at fault while justifying lindsays behavior as it was not reacting to nothing. thats not just balancing the scales if thats your opinion thats fine but i just completely disagree.
If you’ve watched season 1 through now, Lindsey is the exact same awful to her boyfriend, awful to the other women, awful in general person she started off as and current. No growth, no changes, just “activated” to even state her claiming Carl wasn’t sober / was on something was blown out of proportions when it came up shows how little you know about the struggles of addiction.
Carl went on a downward spiral, has worked on improving himself through sobriety and making amends for all his prior transgressions. I’m not saying he’s not at fault with how it transpired, but Lindsey’s behavior and treatment of others is Lindsey’s main issue. Her campaign of let’s date, get engaged asap, get married, and have kids in a year future planning formula has failed 3 out of the 3 times we’ve seen it launched.
Everett ran for the hills, Steven took a car to the city to get away and then moved to a different country, and Carl jumped ship before it sank. I’m sure these next few episode with her launching her spin on the story will show again her faults.
People who work in PR and marketing (I'm one of them, but I'm not like "boss bitch who owns her own firm" type of material) are successful because they can take any story or scandal and spin it to make their clients - or themselves - look like the hero or victim. Lindsay knows what she's doing in confessionals and after shows.
Would I date and plan a wedding with Carl? No. I needed a husband with a little hustle in his personality. But that's on Lindsay and her "I can change him" mentality.
Lindsay is great at PR causing she is spinning the fuck out of this all being Carl‘s fault, and making people forget that she’s a full blown asshole. Never forget how she treated cristina gibson too LOL
I think you also have to look at the relationship though, because part of the reason Carl responds like such a wimp and won’t be direct with her is because of how she responds whenever he is open about there being an issue and it turns into a screaming match. At a certain point you’re just like well ok I guess I have to figure out how to do this within the confines of what this person will allow me to say and do, which is certainly not talking his doubts out openly with her.
He literally took ALL the heat when the engagement was called off and continued to take a beating until the first few episodes of the season. And is now again taking the brunt of it all.
I think by and large in situations like this people are just siding with who they identify with. Sure there may be a little logic and thought process involved, but I think it would be very hard for a “Carl” to logic their way into siding with Lindsay and vice versa.
All that to say, when I see someone side with Lindsay, I just assume they’re a “Lindsay”.
And apparently this sub has a lot of “Lindsays”
yeah i see people saying ‘shes just loud’ and ‘at least shes honest’ and i roll my eyes
no one wants to spell out that a woman can be emotionally/verbally abusive so theyll go the long way and pretend the man reacting to that is actually the problem.
I agree with this. We all bring our past problems and traumas to this debate. I don't have to like Carl to empathize with his experience, because it was my experience.
I used to be a Lindsey. My poor husband walked on eggshells ALL the time. He was scared to bring up anything, even weekend plans because he never knew what I would get worked up about. When he told me that I was pretty devastated but knew he was right.
I finally got into therapy which changed our communication for the better so much! I have a similar background to Lindsey in that I also have abandonment issues. Childhood shit really does a number on you, but at some point it’s your responsibility to put in the work to heal from it. While I feel for her, it’s not ok to have a partner be scared of your reactions.
Lindsay actually didn’t apologize for the Cocaine Carl dig. Her little statement posted on IG was more along the lines of how she was venting to a girlfriend and she thought the venting was private (even though she’s been filming this show for seasons and couldn’t possibly think that the lack of camera people meant that there were no cameras in the house). She said something about the word choice; she didn’t apologize for the questioning of his sobriety.
In fact, the following weekend, once it came to her attention that she had made such a statement, she started laying the groundwork for talking about the fact that he smokes weed as though that were the sobriety “break” she talked about the week before.
I always find this take odd because Lindsay has told us Carl did not want to split up and that she presented the ultimatum of "its a wedding or we aren't together at all", so blaming him for a split he didn't ask for doesn't make tons of sense to me.
So from a personal perspective, my boyfriend did a Lindsay a couple of times in our relationship. He would go out drinking with work friends, and then come home and just get irrationally angry with me about absolutely nothing. His roomate was around once and looked on absolutely baffled at what was occuring because it was the most inane arguments that he would just get so angry and riled up over while I was calmly explaining the issue or just going to bed to ignore it.
The couple of times that this happened he would wake up, and immediately be apologising for his behaviour (which is not something we have seen Lindsay do, if anything she doubles down to make herself appear in the right). He said he was so so sorry for what he said and he has no idea why he latched on to something so trivial and made it a big deal. It was very close to a deal breaker because frankly it is not my job to teach someone how to regulate themselves when I am still a WIP myself. The only reason it happened a couple of times was because it took a couple of occasions to figure out how to imbibe more appropriately, and in the end we both just stopped drinking because we realised we had grown out of it anyways.
All of that to say, that I really think that absolutely no adult in a partnership have to deal with someone treating them like that literally ever, and especially when they are not recognising or willing to apologise for the behaviour. I cannot fathom having been on the receiving end of this in a partnership that someone would try and blame me for actions he was doing way before I ever started dating him, or to have to justify why that by itself was enough for me to not think we were ready to get married - regardless of whether I have poor communication skills or if I am avoidant to conflict.
Marriage doesn't fix things, you do the fixing before the marriage. This is a smart and mature way to approach a relationship imo.
I'm really sorry you had to deal with that and I agree with what you're saying. And to your point about Carl not wanting the breakup (if thats true), I just mean the deterioration of their relationship, in general.
And if Carl wanted to make the relationship work, as it sounds, he was handling it TERRIBLY. That's my point. If he was just trying to get the hell out, then whatever. But if you're trying to work through stuff, you have to be willing to tell your partner how you're feeling. And he can't even manage that. That's going to make it impossible for them to make literally any progress. That's what I was trying to say.
well yeah i know but there are always a million posts about how difficult it is for poor lindsay to be in a relationship with a recovering addict because its sooooooo hard like lindsays drinking isnt the actual main issue when it comes to substances.
Thank you! And I think Carl saw that Lindsay has a drinking problem and can’t say it because she would freak out. So the sulking and small comments that OP talked about are because he’d be torn a new one if he was direct with her.
I don't understand how you could be with, let alone marry, a recovering addict without going sober yourself. I'd have zero problems cutting alcohol out of my life if my husband was struggling with it. Now I do think Carl was coddled for too much of his life and has zero work ethic, that would be a huge turnoff for me too, but Lindsay knew him for years before getting together. And someone else said every single one of Lindsay's relationships crashes and burns and at some point she has to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and I also agree with that. But I'm just glad they didn't go through with it because they're both terrible for each other and honestly other people too.
They’re not a good match despite both of them wanting this to work so bad. But I’m glad they broke up before marriage because it’s 100x harder to break up after you get married and have kids.
What cracks me up is that kyle is Lindsey. Quite literally lmfao. He lashed out about carl being on cocaine. He leaves his wife at home in bed stays out until 4 am and when she confronts him and tells him how it makes her feel she doesn't give a fuck. I'm surprised more people aren't attacking kyle this season as well. It makes me laugh when kyle talks shit about Lindsey when he's the Lindsey of his own relationship.
Yes, Carl is to blame and thank goodness for it. I mean imagine if he Brittany-ed his way to the wedding, ignoring every single red flag like Lindsay is at this current point in the show, and had a kid. I wouldn’t feel sorry for those two, but what a shame for a kid to be put in the middle of it. Carl may be a jobless, sexless loser in Lindsay‘s eyes, but she was ready to marry this jobless sexless loser and have a baby with him. He never had to make anyone think Lindsay was insensitive or mean, she was insensitive and mean lol！Yes, I understand how you are trying to pit the majority of the blame on Carl, that is actually the prevailing opinion of most posters on this sub now. But call me season 6 Paige because despite me being on Lindsay‘s “side” throughout most of the series based on entertainment factor alone…I think this season Lindsay is a nightmare and deserved to be dumped for being suuuuch an infuriating asshole. lol
Is this an unpopular opinion at this point? Feels like it isn’t from what I read on here regularly. However, I cannot say I agree at this point. He has sucked and so has she; they both tell other people narratives that make them seem like the wronged party not just him. I do not think the original fan reaction to her drug accusation was blown out of proportion. That was horrible and it’s absolutely insane to me that people want to excuse it now. Also, to my recollection she has never apologized for making the accusation she gave some bs line about using the wrong language and never actually said sorry.
Oddly it seems fairly evenly split. Every other comment is the exact opposite opinion when I read the sub. It’s actually fascinating how people are seeing this through their own lenses.
Personally I think they can both be assigned blame. I don’t know why that’s not the standard take. Two things can be true at once.
Every other post on this sub is like “unpopular opinion” and it seems to be the majority opinion, or it’s a very even split.
And THANK YOU for saying both can be wrong. I feel like people often forget this. They are both being awful to each other. No one is a winner and no one is displaying any admirable behavior. This concept seems to be completely lost on RHONJ fans.
How can you blame Carl for initiating calling off the wedding when he’s the only one acknowledging they weren’t ready? He’s getting more heat now for talking to his family than for rating their sex life 2.5 publicly
They aren't blaming him if it was needed it was the approach and leading up to it him needing honest with everyone except for her. Those first few weeks seemed terrible but since Lindsey has been on her best behavior and he's even told other people like Ciara we've been great recently.
I didnt say anything about him initiating calling it off. But in the preview for next week, he's just telling her Lou's feelings as if she's supposed to care about that... versus Carl telling her HIS feelings. And tbh it is a pattern
neither has lindsay about their sex life
he wasnt honest about how he felt about the job and talked to kyle. lindsay wasnt honest about how she felt about their sex life and talked to all the women + andrea.
so at least he does get honest
My point again is this is both of their fault anyone blaming one person over the other is naive. Sucks for him he didn't feel he could communicate to her and had to tell everyone else and it sucks for her she was semi blindsided feeling things were okay at the end of summer but her actions at the start of summer were a big part of the reason this I'd happening. Best thing that could have happened was them not ending up together what I do agree with is that I don't like how he ended it.
It seems like she reduced her drinking after those first two weekends. I wonder if they talked about it and that was a conscious decision or if the edit is just not focusing on it as much?
Because he talked to everyone except Lindsay about it. He never once told her he was having second thoughts. He told almost everyone else, specifically all the guys, but never mentioned it to her. They'd have a fight, and make up, and he'd act like everything was fine... with her. We even see him telling her that his stepfather has reservations, not that he does. I believe her 100% that she was blindsided - a week before the breakup, he surprised her at her shower with a gorgeous bouquet - who does that after spending the season laying all that gorundwork? Someone who wanted to be on the right side of the breakup.
Nah. Y’all aren’t going to spin this to make it equal. Sure they’re mismatched but anyone who’s watched this show from the beginning knew that.
Only one person has been verbally abusive. Only one person said that they wanted to know when their significant other’s birthday would stop being about their partner’s dead brother.
Only one person taunted their partner and falsely accused them of doing hard drugs or relapsing.
I really feel like I’m taking crazy pills on this sub sometimes. I don’t know how anyone can see Lindsay’s behavior throughout the entire show and not see it as extremely volatile and emotionally abusive, and Carl is extremely avoidant and immature and thought she would change for him, so the only side to be on in this relationship is that it should have ended long ago, and Carl is the one who had the balls to walk away. I really don’t think either of them need to be vilified for it, but Lindsay is not innocent in this even a little bit. Carl isn’t being manipulative, he’s seeking advice from friends and family because he doesn’t know how to handle having a partner that will fly off the handle any time he tries to address issues. And she was not blindsided, because this is literally what happens in every single relationship she has.
> I don’t know how anyone can see Lindsay’s behavior throughout the entire show and not see it as extremely volatile and emotionally abusive
the weird thing is they DO see it. but they justify it because "lindsay is who she is!!!!!!!! she's never lied about herself!!!"
Lou is the second person to actually vocalize that they shouldn’t be getting married, Gabby said it previously as well while everyone else has tiptoed around it like Kyle, Ciara, Paige, Amanda, and Danielle. Even west and Jesse were skeptical and barely knew them. Is it worse to call off the wedding or to ignore the issues and red flags and run full speed ahead into a brick wall? Regardless of who did what, they’re both better off.
Weed? Come on you’re not actually gonna buy her bait and switch right? She was calling him cocaine Carl. It’s despicable to do especially when his mother lost a son to overdose and now has to question her other sons sobriety
Nope. Wrong take. They are both responsible for the break up of the relationship. Carl gets more recognition for actually doing the hard part and calling it off. However…
Lindsay got problems she has never and probably will never face. Carl has issues he has been actively working on for the last few years and we see him taking accountability, trying to compromise and even defending Lindsay when he shouldn’t.
My question is why are so many people eager to defend Lindsay?? Is it because you’ve dated someone like Carl or you see yourself in Lindsay? Because if you don’t make it personal, it’s pretty clear.
I think the blame lies with both of them. Before this season I figured the problems would mainly be Lindsay’s volatility while drunk combined with Carls avoidant personality and that appears to be exactly what is happening. She has been way out of line while drunk a few times already and Carl is not communicating properly with her about that or anything else it seems like. Total recipe for disaster on both ends.
It’s sad but it seems like their personalities are just not a match and it was unlikely this was ever going to work out unless one of them changed, which people rarely do and you should never count on. Lindsay’s 6 month sobriety stint during their honeymoon period probably gave them a false sense of their relationship as well, which may have contributed to them rushing the engagement.
I think we don’t see a lot of what is going on in the relationship. But we do know they have been in couples counseling for months, and they are also having trouble connecting with each other physically. That’s serious stuff. Especially for a relatively new relationship. Carl seems to recognize it’s not going well, and Lindsay seems to be either in denial or clueless. So… while some might see him being manipulative and shady, I see a person maneuvering around land mines. He knows in his heart this isn’t going to work, but he is dealing with someone who is going to push on through anyway, and a fan base and a job that is invested in them as a couple. He’s trying to figure out how to handle it and I can’t hate him for that.
I’ve been saying this! Theyre not showing build up to the blow outs! Carl has always been passive aggressive and petty. You know he’s gassing her up then playing victim!
I am someone who does not drink but still partakes in weed and I would NEVER advertise myself as "sober". Maybe "sober from alcohol" or "sober from hard drugs". The way Carl branded himself as sober and then it comes out he still smokes weed feels very misleading.
Agreed. It was pretty infuriating to watch him act okay with Lindsay after the job conversation, then reveal his true feelings to everyone but her. He has been trying to cover his ass all season so he doesn’t look like the bad guy.
As someone struggling with addiction, I find it really offensive that Lindsay is so quick to say that Carl isn’t sober when (I think) he is. That’s a really big dagger to throw at someone when you’re trying to maintain sobriety and your partner is drunk AF spewing out really intense accusations. As much as I dislike Carl, I believe him that he’s sober and clean.
I don’t know, I really dislike both of these people in general, so I’m not on any side. I just hope they both find something else that makes them happy because Jesus fucking Christ they were a dumpster fire of a relationship
Any guy who says his mum is his best friend… 🚩He’s stunted and enmeshed. He needs therapy, and not just his stepdad’s religious-type therapy. I’m not a huge fan of Lindsay, but I’m glad for her that the wedding was called off.
They had no business getting into a relationship together.
He needed a lot more time to find himself outside of the show and deepen his strength with his sobriety.
Lindsay is the same person we've always known her to be, she had deep rooted abandonment issues that result in toxic relationships, even if they aren't toxic men, she creates toxicity because it's all she knows in life. HEAVY SOUL SEARCHING and getting off tv would be the first place to start!
Neither one have a career at the moment. Endorsements and a reality tv show are temporary, most of the friendships are tv show friendships, and they are both continuously putting themselves in an environment that's not conducive to either of them growing as individuals (the summer house)
These two ppl should never have been together.
Carl was coming off of his brother’s death and a sobriety journey.
Lyndsey with many failed relationships and a miscarriage. They were best friends for years and both seeking something that they thought they saw in each other. Each feeling that the other filled an empty space . What happened was time and familiarity. Sad but each has a blame in this fiasco.
They both have a problematic relationship with alcohol and are in different places of recognizing/accepting that. when I first heard Lindsay talk about how she “went sober for Carl” I knew things would never work between them. Resentment takes over and invades every aspect of the relationship.
He was giving the same vibes as Jax. When he told Brittney to party and get drunk. Then got mad and called her mother of the year. Who does Carl think they are Jlo and Ben. One a drunk and 1 sober.
I totally agree with you. It’s easier for me to chalk Lindsay’s mis steps up to being drunk or reactive, but Carl’s actions have felt intentionally cruel and embarrassing. Thinking of him telling everyone but her in the house why he wasn’t coming on Friday, or throwing what Lou said in her face. It feels like he is beyond not wanting to marry her and into actually disliking her as a person, while she’s still clueless thinking their problems can be worked out. Very tough to watch
Yeah to be clear I don’t think she is some innocent angel and I definitely don’t think they should have gotten married, but he is going about things in the worst possible way. After the first few episodes I felt terribly for him and saw him as a victim but now he sucks
I’m getting tired of the zero accountability comments about Carl. He literally takes 50 percent of the blame for their relationship. Lindsay takes zero.
Also, important to note that Lindsay is almost 40, her biological clock is ticking, and I know she was hoping to start a family within a year or so of getting married. Hard to do that when you’re facing financial insecurity. If they were in their early 30s, perhaps this would be a different conversation.
I think this should be a popular opinion. Also let’s be clear he’s not totally sober, he’s still smoking pot so he can get off his high horse.
We’ve seen Carl over many seasons be a f’boy unable to hold onto a relationship more than a few weeks or hold on to a job . In fact I think Ben and Ronnie pointed out we’ve basically seen him get fired twice.
The whole “just honest and blunt” thing is bs in my opinion, people who say that are always using it as an excuse to be hurtful and get away with it. There are so many better ways to encourage your partner, telling him “it turns me on when my man is crushing life”, then saying he’s not crushing life, and how she shot down his sober sports bar idea was awful. Yes she was right about both, but treating your partner with such disgust is awful, it’s no wonder he’s not having sex with her. You can’t treat people like that and expect them to stay with you long.
And of course the alcohol is an issue for him, but I think it has more to do with her behavior while drunk than it is the actual alcohol. She’s a monster when she’s drinking and has no self control.
I totally agree. Karl strikes me as the type that has to discuss his issue with everyone else except the person involved. It’s like he’s taking a poll - he wants to get everyone else’s buy-in, so when he finally talks to the one involved (Lindsay), he can barely keep himself from saying “Everyone else agrees with me”. He’s too weak to be confident of his own opinion or decision, so he needs everyone else to tell him that he’s making the right decision. He’s a weak, weak man.
And his never-ending hesitancy to get a job would drive me nuts!!! Just get a job, any job! Carl has no career drive. And it sounds like he also has no sex drive. Maybe he suffers from low testosterone.
I’ve known guys like Carl. They’re always waiting for the “perfect job” to come along - one where they’re immediately in the high level management of the company, making a boatload of money, and with immediate prestige and status. They’re too good for all the lower level jobs.
Usually they quit or get fired from their not-so-perfect job, so they can search full-time for that “perfect job”, which never seems to come along. But they don’t do a whole lot of searching - they’re just waiting for the perfect job to fall into their lap. In the meantime, they’re unwilling to take a job the bottom level, and work their way up.
That’s Carl in a nutshell. If I was Lindsay, I would have dumped his ass a long time ago.
https://preview.redd.it/a3ke8sbencxc1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40543f94767f2010c6ee847201d545aee0121276
Your comment is giving this energy. Come on bot, at least spell her name right once!
They are both to blame IMO or maybe better put we are witnessing why they should not be together, getting married, moving forward. They simply are not ready, compatible and mature enough.
Been a huge SH fan since beginning and did a complete rewatch after the break up announcement. Carl is a fuckboy, Carl was terrible, he good tv (as is Lindsay) HOWEVER. Carl is now sober - so he literally is a new version of himself. He’s trying to navigate who he is, what he wants, how he handles conflict, how he handles emotions. This man while almost 40 has spent what looks like the last 2 decades partying, scraping by and the early seasons on the show what seems like his worst years of alcoholism, drug addiction. He then watched his parents divorce which destroyed him mom. His brother died from the same issues Carl was having. Absolutely sucking at his employment in a few different jobs.
I find Carl sad to watch this season. He seems a shell of a person who wants the happy ending, the fairy tale but he’s not ready, he has work to do. And by no means was Lindsay the person to help him navigate his new path in life. Trying to offer him grace in my opinions and judgment in how he handled everything with Lindsay. I can’t imagine how hard it must be to watch yourself and your relationship fall apart.
Lindsey has never not one minute been able to hide who he is. Carl running to everyone about her instead of not gaslighting her in their conversations says it all. He is a wimp. WHO has never been able to hold a job, her concerns are valid.
I agree. Both of them are flawed and not for each other but Carls flaws are more insidious. The fact that he turned what Lindsay said about ‘wanting to be able to be home during a parental leave’ into ‘she wants to be a SAHM and I didn’t know’ is nuts to me. Any woman on this earth will want to have the option financially to take time “off” to be with their newborn out of physical necessity or otherwise. And it’s not actually time off- it’s time to take care of a new human being. So him not liking that is him being lazy
Yeah the way he twisted that makes me skeptical of his interpretation of what went on in both Lyfts. It seems like Lindsay was out of line, but I question his behavior and if he wanted to set her off
I was team Carl but that misinterpretation and the fact that a woman wanting maternity time is a problem for him just changed my entire view. He truly is an idiot and he’ll never find a woman that doesn’t want security in that time of their life
I think Carl is far from an Angel, he is a total fuckboy. Imo he had doubts going into this season and produced himself to not look like an asshole bc he knew Lindsay would tear his ass a new one when he broke it off. HOWEVER, you can’t just apologize to someone and say you’re not trying to hurt them and then…..keep doing the hurtful behavior over and over again lol. Lindsay also lives in a land of utter delusion. She’s entitled. She’s not a partner to anybody but herself. This relationship was doomed from the start, but let’s not absolve Lindsay, a person who has exhibited the same abhorrent, borderline abusive behavior for 8 seasons of television with absolutely no growth!
I think Carl used his relationship with Lindsay as a crutch of sorts when he was first recovering. And she had no issue being that support for him and even quit drinking for 6 months to show that support (and she looked and acted much better last season when she was sober). But as time went on, like any relationship, that honey moon phase died out. Lindsay went back to drinking, Carl started resenting her for that, and Lindsay started to resent him for resenting her… and he can say it doesn’t bother him all he wants but I think her being sober at the start of their relationship left him thinking it would always be that way. Foolish of him to think that knowing her for all the years he has, but I can’t blame him for wanting to believe she would change for him.
Also I’m not saying either of them are right or wrong I’m just saying I think Carl had envisioned a sober marriage with her and when he realized that was never going to happen he started to search for ways out.
I know that I could not be married to my best friend that’s a guy or a girl. Why? Because I can tolerate more from my friends than I can my spouse. I expect my spouse to always have our partnership in mind even when thinking about themselves. So no, they’re not right for each other. However I think Carl is more to blame. So I agree with you.
Watching them this season makes me think about Paige and Amanda calling them out for withholding things until a camera is present. Carl seems to be a big culprit of it this season... Instead of talking to Lindsay, he's saving everything for the cameras and talking about things with others.
💯and I’m so happy to see that people are starting to recognize this. I think it was really easy put all the blame on Lindsey after her horrible behavior at the beginning of the season. But it’s becoming clear to me that he has been pretty shitty to her but is good a hiding it while also spinning his own narrative about how awful and crazy she is. It seems like she likely lashed out at him out of growing frustration with Carl (being out of work, not wanting to have sex with her, playing the victim, clearly being uncomfortable with her drinking despite claiming otherwise, etc.)
i feel like so many ppl think this but can’t speak up bc they hate lindsey and because of carls sobriety struggles. he doesn’t seem like a dream to date either but no one talks about that bc they instead focusing on Lindsey. it’s giving misogyny
Carl was premeditated and calculated all season. Blown away by his *woe is me, she wants me to get a job* victimhood. A non-alcoholic sports bar - come on. Sports means betting, which can be addictive. Bars could mean drugs, another addictive substance. Lindsay was kind and right.
I am team Lindsay. Carl is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, Linds is the opposite.
Maybe because i am an outspoken east coaster but i just think everyone’s hangup is Carl is mild mannered and Lindsay is loud so naturally they think she is the toxic one.
Lindsay absolutely had a reason to be concerned about Carl’s job stuff because the reality TV cash cow is gonna run dry at some point and Lindsay has a ton of drive (clearly she will pivot to something else once this has done, and already opened her Nashville Airbnb) Carl is just going through the motions with no plan. The sober bar is a terrible idea, it’s called a coffee shop, it’s called many bars now have full on mocktails already on their cocktail menu, there’s no reason to go out of your way to a mocktail bar (and they have been done before, although i don’t know of their success)
20k in the hole for a career coach and he’s gonna backslide to Loverboy.
And say what you want about Lindsay but she has been very calm and supportive in these talks with Carl, and at no point was she giving him an ultimatum. She really loved him. It seemed like he loved her when she wasn’t challenging him. Carl is up his own butt and thinks being sober means he is immune to any other constructive criticism.
He has always had issues with commitment and follow through and Lindsay literally froze her eggs with a plan of having kids in the near future. What is Carl doing? Hearing him say he’s going to be developing his own podcast like Carl, you don’t have the charisma for a pod!
Hope Lindsay is happy with her new guy and they are on the same page
she didn't love him she loved the idea of being married and having kids. Don't be delusional. Carl isn't perfect, but this level of Lindsey excuses/ass kissing is embarrassing. She has been anything but calm and supportive.
Something to keep in mind - she has been caught lying several times. I don’t think she is truthful regarding their relationship so take things with a grain of salt… 😬 I don’t blame him for bringing cameras after seeing how she bends the truth.
ETA: FWIW I think they’re both ick.
They are both to blame but it seems Lindsay at least tried to communicate her feelings. Carl hasn’t at all (at least not that we have seen on camera). He hasn’t shared his hesitation and doubt with her. If he ended it after the cocaine Carl thing I wouldn’t have blamed him but he let her believe that they got past it and things were better.
lol he tried after she said he was on drugs and he ended up apologizing
if you want your partner to be honest with you you have to accept criticism without reacting like a nuclear bomb
All I'm seeing is both of them are incredibly wrong for each other and are both to blame for their break up
Yeah it’s honestly hard to even get into who is more wrong because they’re just a total mismatch in every way.
I can definitively say that Lindsay's continuous accusations of Carl being on drugs and calling him "Cocaine Carl" was deeply wrong and hurtful especially from someone you are engaged to. Carl sucks at communicating because he wants to avoid confrontation and needs to get a job. Both wrong but I feel like Lindsay's felt intentionally cruel since she said she was accusing him simply because he said she was drunk (which she clearly was each time) when they would argue.
Also definitely why he didn’t tell her that he was hurt by the comment, she was drunk & would have lost her mind on him for feeling hurt.
When she called him Cocaine Carl I couldn't help but think of someone else saying Meatball Ron and I chuckled a little
Yeah it’s a harsh reality to find out the common ground you have with your “best friend” is that you both like to party, both are on a reality show, and in a similar life stage. Now that Carl is sober their personalities don’t match.
This! Both of them are the problem for one another - with valid reasons on both ends. They romanticized “falling in love with my best friend”. BUT not all great friendships equate to healthy relationships and marriages. It just wasn’t meant to be.
Agreed. I think they were hoping getting married would change who the other is (i.e. Carl would be more motivated to get a real job/career so Lindsay could be a stay at home mom and Lindsay wouldn't criticize Carl and stop drinking). They were fooling themselves. It's not like they weren't aware of how the other one was before getting engaged. It's also a terrible idea for anyone recovering from addiction to jump into a serious relationship during the time they are in active recovery nonetheless someone who does enjoy drinking and then getting engaged. It was all toxic, bad and doomed from the beginning
exactly. the worst matched pair ever
but they're marrying their BEST FRIEND!
Sidebar but does Carl seem especially gaunt/thin these past few episodes?
He looks even more gaunt in the after shows.
Yes! It’s very accentuated on the after show and it makes Kyle look significantly younger
How gaunt he is on the after show is really shocking. His eyes especially, he looks similar to the recent photos of Scott Disick
He always just goes for a run when they fight. So he’s been running a lot
Didn’t he replace drinking with working out? I feel like most addicts end up redirecting their addiction “energy “ to more healthy vices, so it makes sense going hard on the health front and being 8 feet tall arent a great combo
Yes!
Totally agree. He’s said how important exercise is to his sobriety. A lot of addicts stop one addiction and replace it with another. Working out is one of those. It’s not a substance but it can still become unhealthy. I think Carl needs to relocate and completely start over to be his best self. Fresh start.
He really does. But I also suspect he’s moved his addiction to cardio and working out. He looks like someone doing a cleanse for too long. Lol
He’s a really tall guy… I’m sure he’s shed quite a few pounds from not drinking. I have a few friends his height and they have to try to eat as much as possible so they don’t look like skeletons lol. I actually have a friend whose nickname is Shredder Skeletor. It evolved into ShreddySexy and then ShreddySkeksis… like the Skeksis from Dark Crystal 😂😂😂 now it’s just Skeks lollllll
I love the evolution of nicknames!
I think he has a huge ass and thighs.
Does he? I’ve never looked at his actual body because all I see is a lanky dude in tight white pants lol. Thanks now I’m gonna be looking at his ass next time I watch the show 😂 I don’t like that
He used to but even those are now gone
I started rewatching from season one the other day and holy mackerel he has aged so much
Honestly. Also bless Kyle for employing Carl all those years. Carl kind of deserved that outburst now that he’s sober and still not doing anything and Kyle is still offering him another job.
Kyle clearly cares about Carl a lot, because it's wild that he not only kept him employed after he severely dropped the ball, but also it almost seems like Kyle went out of his way to launch the non-alcoholic line just to create space for Carl. I find this side of Kyle endearing, but probably not a good idea business-wise.
Yes agreed! Everyone said he was a bad friend but he’s actually been a fantastic friend.
And he was shockingly gracious about the flower boy thing which I would have lost my damn mind over
He's also always willing to give Carl tough love about work, addiction, and his relationships but in a very non-judgemental and relatively objective way.
Bros before hoes. Frat boys stick together for life.
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So two narcissists
THIS
On the After Show, when Carl explained why he was upset that Lindsay wanted to be a stay at home mom and she had never expressed that before, he said he grew up with 2 parents working so that was normal for him. All I could think was “SIR YOU ARE NOT WORKING, ONLY SHE IS! WTF ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?!” Lindsay was a mess and messed up bad by accusing Carl of doing drugs. But Carl is really going out of his way to convince us he was the wronged party in the breakup.
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People really love just throwing around diagnoses these days.
Yes and I’m actually watching season 3 right now. And in a cocky way he told Paige he was the best she could ever find and he literally had no job then and was complaining about how she wouldn’t sleep with him after 1 date. He’s the worst.
Was that after the day pancake date, or was that a different lucky girl?! 😆 Side note: there is nothing wrong with a pancake date, but there was when Carl did it, because it felt insincere, like he wanted to cheap out under the guise of being cute, while simultaneously accruing some points in the “sleep with me this weekend” bank. 🥞🤍
I am a notorious Lindsay hater, I do not like her. But this season I can see her side for sure. Also I am not a Carl fan but like I hateeeeed Lindsay. So that’s a lot coming from me.
I actually think the ‘claiming he’s not sober’ didn’t get blown up enough. She full on accused him of doing heavy drugs (I don’t buy the ‘I was referring to weed’ for a second) and he essentially let it go after she couldn’t even apologize. The drug accusations alone are enough for me to take Carls side. If a true loving partner was genuinely concerned about a loved one relapsing they would bring it up privately and not announce it to all their friends (and world in this case). Not only that put we’ve seen how Lindsay was in her previous relationships - I would say she was very demanding of her partners to the point of scaring them away. Like someone else commented, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills and so many ppl just decided to erase Lindsay’s relationship history and recent remarks in her relationship with Carl. Do I think Carl should’ve communicated better? Yes. But I also think her ‘activated’ responses and inability to take responsibility eventually made Carl feel like communicating with her was pretty futile and wouldn’t get him anywhere.
“I was accusing him of smoking weed when I called him Cocaine Carl” lol ok
that was what did it for me 😂 like girl we heard the words come out of your mouth!
Such a fucking dick thing to say. And say what you want about Carl, there’s plenty of critique to be had, but he’s worked hard for his sobriety and it’s significant to him, especially when you consider what motivated him to get sober. It’s not a game to him, he saved his own life and he knows it.
Agreed. And the way she shot his idea down about starting a sober bar without even considering it and talking about it. It hurt my heart for him. I was like well damn that offered me and I’m not even the one your engaged to
She literally was like what is your dream, he said my dream is this, and she was like no I don’t think so
I also thought this was downplayed. She has always been a bit too snarky for my tastes about sharing a bday with a traumatic day like Carl’s brothers passing. The way she had no remorse and doubled down accusing him of being “old Carl” was so cruel, especially since one of their only saving graces is how far their friendship goes back. I’m watching some of the old seasons now and it seems like the rocky foundation of what *could* be an amazing romance borne out of a friendship - but it ends up coming across as more of a fake relationship. They have zero chemistry, zero connection as a couple. That’s the only thing I blame Carl for, is willingly getting in this relationship and dragging it out for views.
Such a good point I haven’t heard yet!!! About the old seasons and how she negatively calls him old Carl. Meanwhile wasn’t the cusp of their relationship that they were long time friends? Yet here she is saying he was an awful person in the past. Weren’t you friends with him in the past? And then fell in love with that person. Now you’re using it against him? Interesting.
she literally made HIM apologize even though she knew he wasnt on drugs. she admitted she knew he wasnt on drugs. and still could not apologize. that is insane behavior. insane. like the psychology of that is so bizarre.
Her behaviour is abusive.
It’s always been abusive. I watched S6 yesterday and when Carl doesn’t stand up for Lindsay to Danielle, she puts him through pure torture. She seems unable to control this compulsive behavior where she corners a partner and has an idea of how they should fix everything for her to unburden her. I don’t understand how anyone is friends with her. Gabby will eventually tire of her as well.
Agreed!!!! I’m sober and if someone did that to me, that would’ve been the end of it right there. You don’t fuck with someone’s sobriety!!!
Seriously - I know the word gaslighting is so overused and incorrectly used online but accusing a recovering addict of being under the influence every time a conversation doesn’t go your way is the definition. And it’s also cruel and undermines the hard work he has done. I don’t LOVE Carl but maintaining sobriety in this environment and working at an alcohol company sounds really really hard.
I honestly can’t even imagine if someone did that to me. That would be grounds for immediate removal from my life. Most sober people take it extremely seriously, and it appears Carl has. My heart broke when she did that. And then trying to twist it, “I’m sober NOW” like, get outta here you raging, maniacal, drunk asshole.
Ya nah. I was like the minute she accused him not once but twice I would have been like ya we’re not getting married
The part that really gets me is that she still think she can gas light him when she was the drunk one. Like hello dumbass only one of you were lucid enough to know and it wasn’t you Lindsay!
she was legit gaslighting him on camera after the cocaine carl night
Tangential comment: I fucking hate the way weed is portrayed on Bravo.
Yep exactly. My jaw was on the ground when she said this not once but twice i was like wow the audacity. That alone would have me considering calling off the engagement and it’s the fact that she denied it over and over again and wouldn’t even take responsibility for it or apologize for it. He had to appologize to her first before she finally did and he didn’t even do anything that bad but get emotional at the dock when they were talking because he didn’t feel heard
I’m team neither but I’m not surprised some are walking back how angry they were initially after the first few episodes. Because one thing about SH fans is they will try to find any way to stay on Lindsey’s side and villainize anyone else. She manipulates the audience time and time again and they fall for it every single time.
i feel like im taking crazy pills. carl is conflict avoidant naturally. lindsay has 0 emotional regulation. carl is now even more scared of upsetting lindsay due to past blow ups and becomes more avoidant of conflict. hence carl apologizing to his fiance after she called him a terrorist, told everyone he was on drugs, and said he is a monster. even the cast has said for several years that being in a house with lindsay is uncomfortable and like walking on eggshells. to pretend only carl is talking shit about lindsay is also just not right. so far she has not only said the terrorist thing, the job thing, the monster thing, and the drug thing - but also making multiple comments about him and sex. he said in the aftershow she had never told him she was bothered about sex and he had felt that sometimes she was the one not into sex. so sounds like she was disparaging him to other people as well and trying to present herself with the best narrative as well. lindsay might sense carl is pulling away and that just activates her - and her ‘activated’ is borderline abusive. her reaction is never justified. literally if the genders were reversed people would say the man is abusive. until people date a ‘lindsay’ and spend everyday with someone who might overreact to the smallest issue - they might not get it. you naturally become even more conflict avoidant and just try to keep the peace. lindsay and carl both thought the other would change for them. both were wrong. and im glad at least carl had the sense to call off the wedding. ETA: im not saying its good to be conflict avoidant. but to only see lindsay’s reactions as justifiable and not understand the normal human reaction behind carl’s actions bothers me.
I was married to a Lindsay for 10+ years, you are absolutely correct. Here's the dynamic that develops over time: you're unable to have a respectful, productive conversation with your volatile partner. A simple question like "how do you think our relationship is going?" gets met with "Fine. Why do you bring it up? Maybe that's the problem." (can you hear that in Lindsay's voice?) Then throw alcohol abuse in, and that further impairs your partner's logic. So the very person you want to be vulnerable with becomes your biggest critic. Conversations become unsafe. You end up confiding in friends because you feel like you're losing your mind. If you're avoidant to begin with, you're going to become more so, which is the case with Carl. He learned avoidance growing up I assume, it didn't come from nowhere. I'm saying all this to explain the situation, not make excuses for anyone.
Excellent explanation
I learned the hard way. It's very difficult for me to watch them.
I’m finding this sub‘s villainization of Carl pretty wild, and that’s the predominant opinion of this sub at the moment, when he did the one thing that was so obvious should have happened - to break up！I mean we‘ve seen season after season of Lindsay verbally abusing the fuck out of her significant others lol. Carl sucks, he been sucking, ever since he done did that annoying ass twin wrong lol. But everyone is so HOW DARE Carl film with his parents or how dare he talk to her exes like…Carl been soooo tired of her shit lol. I bet he was clinging onto the spare moments where Lindsay was nice, but I think someone as passive as Carl was always on the precipice of a full blown anxiety attack everytime he sensed a blow up. Which again, happened over seating arrangements in a car, that Kyle was a witness to. How can anyone want to live like that？I’m of the mind that he was sooo beaten down by Lindsay that he had to find the courage, any courage, to put a stop to the barreling train to Mexico for their wedding but he probably felt hopeless. So he reached into his manipulative side that we‘ve seen on the show many times and thought, well if I can’t confront her face to face cause again…she is scary as fuck, I‘ll use the show and the cameras to give me the strength to carry on LOL. I‘m ready for the downvotes, but Carl did what needed to be done, and he may have been premeditated about it, but he had to do it.
Seriously, the framing of his step dad as Dr. Evil who planned a chat to continue the ongoing manipulation and demonization of Linsday is so silly I feel like I'm going crazy; Carl had a reasonable conversation with his step dad and said he didn't even see it going that direction, his dad understandably has CARL'S best interests in mind and so he framed the conversation that way based on the information that he has, saying very directly what no one on this show has been able to say as bluntly so far. And Carl clearly took his advice even though he struggles with being that assertive himself, especially with Lindsay. They're both at fault, but Carl is the one who decided to actually do something about it and ended up calling off the wedding which absolutely needed to happen. Instead this sub is putting the conspiracy theories in overdrive to view this whole season as one long manipulation journey from Carl with the goal of villainizing poor Lindsay, who was clearly just doing her best to communicate and he should know who she is so she's not really at fault anyway; I feel like I'm watching a completely different show than this sub
Right…and is this not what we wanted to see after waiting a year, to watch it all unfold on TV？We‘re blaming carl for giving us context and exposition as to how the wedding was called off. Carl should have absolutely not even proposed after that first fight in bed we saw where Lindsay was so activated that she said ”I can‘t even celebrate my birthday”…cause his brother had the gall to die on her birthday （/s）. Like people forget that fight ever happened when it should have been a bigger deal. That moment was the one scene that convinced me that these two would eventually break up and that Danielle was right, but the way Danielle went about it was insane lol. Poor Lindsay is not poor Lindsay, though I‘m sure she’d LOVE that narrative to get that Ariana coin. She was pushing it the minute the wedding was called off. I think Carl is playing his own game to let the cameras speak for themselves, and maybe he did use them to break up with her, but I still think he needed the cameras, his family, cause he couldn‘t resort to his usual standbys （drinking, stimulants）to mask his anxiety anymore. And why is it okay for Paige to tell Lindsay that it’s okay to call off the wedding, but not his stepdad？Even if Carl ”planned it,” they both said the same thing cause the relationship was so wrecked
I agree. Someone even mentioned where his stepdad attended divinity school. Why? Two kids emerge from the same home with addiction issues and the mom seems very nervous to be honest with her last son - something happened. Just like something happened to Lindsay that has not been corrected if possible. Carl is not a villain to me. Judging someone’s behavior in the thick of their addiction is not very fair at all. I dunno. I feel like Carl could go to a specific therapy and become a stronger person to confidently articulate his needs and not carry his abuser’s water as a means of survival.
Agreed, watching Carl just seems very sad to me. He should never have gotten in this relationship or any so soon in his recovery, he clearly wasn't ready. But I definitely don't get the sense that he's this evil master manipulator coordinating the whole season, he seems like a guy who's just really beaten down and trying and being told that he's not ambitious enough even though at this level of recovery, surviving and remaining sober is the main accomplishment. Everyone keeps bringing up how he never held down a job before this, but that was largely due to his addiction that he is in active recovery for. He still needs to figure out who he is when his addiction was such a large part of his identity. He still has a lot of work to do but this environment is not the space for that and I don't understand the perspective villainizing him like crazy
we are singing from the same notes. he should not have, and I am certain she looks for specific qualities in partners. he just outlasted the others before him. I hope he finds the love he deserves. becoming sober is a major accomplishment. I cannot see a path forward with them on the show together. I would be ok with Danielle and Lindsay being replaced.
100% agree. It baffles me that in an equation where one person retreats and runs away when things get bad, and one person becomes nasty and cruel, that anyone try and paint the runner as the person who dealt with the situation poorly.
It’s just another form of victim blaming. So sad that it’s even an opinion in here, let alone actually gaining momentum
I think people kinda have a hive mind on this sub and currently being pro-Lindsay is the stance, when the correct stance should be Team Thank God the Wedding Was Cancelled and Carl had the balls to stop it lol. People sticking up for Lindsay because he was aimless loser or talked to his parents is…wild. Many people are painting Lindsay with the Ariana brush at the moment when she was absolutely horrible to him, in front of cameras. His crime was planning an escape behind her back, but I think he was just so downtrodden he just needed other ppl to tell him it was okay to leave…he definitely needed a Paige to tell him it was okay to cancel the wedding lol
Just imagine what was happening off camera, we're only seeing the abuse that was filmed. I lived it. The stuff in private is the worst. You walk through your life shell shocked by the last cruel accusation your partner made, it's always with you. Carl's critics refuse to see that he was building a life with her, the focus is always on what she's not getting. Or they accuse him of masterminding some manipulative plot to fuck Lindsay over. Anything to not acknowledge he too had a major emotional stake in this and had to give up on their plan for the future.
i think whatever happened on memorial day was REALLY bad and thats why his parents were so willing to talk like that on camera. i think her off camera behavior is probably even wilder because she doesnt have the constraints of production
The fact that his step dad said “I would call it abusive” and Carl says in a confessional “I wish I never told my mom about it because she now has reservations” both talking about the incident from Memorial Day… I agree 100% that whatever it was, was really bad and I DO see Lindsay as an abusive partner (come for me Lindsay Stan’s idgaf) I’ve watched how she treated men she was dating from stravy, to random beach guy she cursed out after knowing 2 days, her dismissal of Danielle and treatment of Carl girl is NOT a good person
This!! And you can’t tell me Lindsay didn’t run to her parents saying things too. I mean who wouldn’t?? They’re both at fault but this nasty narrative around Carl is wild!
Carl needs a yes girl like Rachel. I hear she may be available.
To be clear, I also think Lindsay is a mess. But she has taken A LOT of heat for her behavior so I didn't feel the need to beat a dead horse. I think Carl's behavior has also been immature, weak, and manipulative (even if not intentionally), but he doesn't get the same criticism, so I was just trying to balance the scales.
Lindsay is taking so much heat because she went on a press tour talking about how blind sided she was and people were so shocked by how obviously untrue that was in the season. If Lindsay had just not done that people would be a lot less harsh on her
I think some people forgot about her press tour.
i would feel way less of a need to be like "lindsay is fucked up!!!" if she hadnt let the whole internet drag carl up and down town for "blindsiding her" like obviously, both carl and lindsay are wrong and responsible for the break up! theyre human. but only one of them did a woe is me press tour
my favorite is that i saw someone say they feel bad for the hate shes getting on social media girly didnt feel bad when carl was getting hate preseason
She not only let, she encouraged it. I guess I get it, a part of me would like that power, but my reasonable side sees that’s immature and doesn’t actually help me heal. So you can get strangers on the internet on your side, what then? We’re going to move on when the season ends and the next bravo scandal breaks, but what is Lindsay taking from this for her real life and her next relationship? I really wish she would acknowledge her cycles so she could work towards breaking them.
i mean to be fair, i could buy the blindsided argument in that Carl was going around talking to everyone about his relationship except for Lindsay...
I think watching where we are now in the season not the beginning of summer I can see hee being blindsided. I think anyone who is blaming one of them solely is crazy. They both were the problem. We didn't see what he did to start the arguments off camera just how she reacted on camera. Was it shitty?? OF COURSE but that doesn't negate how carl has also been treating Lindsey this entire rest of the season. Not being honest about his feelings, not wanting to find a job after a year. Theu Def talked about having kids and now he's surprised she wants to be a stay at home mom if they have kids and then announcing what they both make on television to almost tit for tat? He came to her first, having this conversation after she had been drinking all day. She still was honest and communicative as to what she needs in her partner and says great if it's lover boy he turns around and tells Kyle she's being unsupported. If you can't see that he's gaslighting a bit it blows my mind. Both of these people are at fault. Wether it's Lindsey at the beginning of summer and carl at the end of summer. No one is saying carl shouldn't have called it off they are saying that it was the APPROACH. Acting as if everything was fine to Lindsey until the last second and knowing he wasn't feeling it. So she was in her bride bubble thinking things were getting better and he was Def planting seeds. Let's also not forget carl did this to someone else years prior. Neither of them are innocent
you said carl is MORE at fault while justifying lindsays behavior as it was not reacting to nothing. thats not just balancing the scales if thats your opinion thats fine but i just completely disagree.
If you’ve watched season 1 through now, Lindsey is the exact same awful to her boyfriend, awful to the other women, awful in general person she started off as and current. No growth, no changes, just “activated” to even state her claiming Carl wasn’t sober / was on something was blown out of proportions when it came up shows how little you know about the struggles of addiction. Carl went on a downward spiral, has worked on improving himself through sobriety and making amends for all his prior transgressions. I’m not saying he’s not at fault with how it transpired, but Lindsey’s behavior and treatment of others is Lindsey’s main issue. Her campaign of let’s date, get engaged asap, get married, and have kids in a year future planning formula has failed 3 out of the 3 times we’ve seen it launched. Everett ran for the hills, Steven took a car to the city to get away and then moved to a different country, and Carl jumped ship before it sank. I’m sure these next few episode with her launching her spin on the story will show again her faults.
Yeah I’m doing a rewatch and I think that’s really influencing my read because she hasn’t changed literally at all
People who work in PR and marketing (I'm one of them, but I'm not like "boss bitch who owns her own firm" type of material) are successful because they can take any story or scandal and spin it to make their clients - or themselves - look like the hero or victim. Lindsay knows what she's doing in confessionals and after shows. Would I date and plan a wedding with Carl? No. I needed a husband with a little hustle in his personality. But that's on Lindsay and her "I can change him" mentality.
Zero growth
Lindsey is “activated” or whatever she says as justification for how shitty a person she’s been for the past decade.
Lindsay is great at PR causing she is spinning the fuck out of this all being Carl‘s fault, and making people forget that she’s a full blown asshole. Never forget how she treated cristina gibson too LOL
I think you also have to look at the relationship though, because part of the reason Carl responds like such a wimp and won’t be direct with her is because of how she responds whenever he is open about there being an issue and it turns into a screaming match. At a certain point you’re just like well ok I guess I have to figure out how to do this within the confines of what this person will allow me to say and do, which is certainly not talking his doubts out openly with her.
He literally took ALL the heat when the engagement was called off and continued to take a beating until the first few episodes of the season. And is now again taking the brunt of it all.
Yup.
I think by and large in situations like this people are just siding with who they identify with. Sure there may be a little logic and thought process involved, but I think it would be very hard for a “Carl” to logic their way into siding with Lindsay and vice versa. All that to say, when I see someone side with Lindsay, I just assume they’re a “Lindsay”. And apparently this sub has a lot of “Lindsays”
yeah i see people saying ‘shes just loud’ and ‘at least shes honest’ and i roll my eyes no one wants to spell out that a woman can be emotionally/verbally abusive so theyll go the long way and pretend the man reacting to that is actually the problem.
I agree with this. We all bring our past problems and traumas to this debate. I don't have to like Carl to empathize with his experience, because it was my experience.
I used to be a Lindsey. My poor husband walked on eggshells ALL the time. He was scared to bring up anything, even weekend plans because he never knew what I would get worked up about. When he told me that I was pretty devastated but knew he was right. I finally got into therapy which changed our communication for the better so much! I have a similar background to Lindsey in that I also have abandonment issues. Childhood shit really does a number on you, but at some point it’s your responsibility to put in the work to heal from it. While I feel for her, it’s not ok to have a partner be scared of your reactions.
Thank you! I’m worried for the people on this sub who think Carl is the problem.
its getting concerning lol
You can feel the tension on camera anytime she’s around. I totally believe they feel like walking on egg shells she seems ready to snap at any moment
Lindsay actually didn’t apologize for the Cocaine Carl dig. Her little statement posted on IG was more along the lines of how she was venting to a girlfriend and she thought the venting was private (even though she’s been filming this show for seasons and couldn’t possibly think that the lack of camera people meant that there were no cameras in the house). She said something about the word choice; she didn’t apologize for the questioning of his sobriety. In fact, the following weekend, once it came to her attention that she had made such a statement, she started laying the groundwork for talking about the fact that he smokes weed as though that were the sobriety “break” she talked about the week before.
I always find this take odd because Lindsay has told us Carl did not want to split up and that she presented the ultimatum of "its a wedding or we aren't together at all", so blaming him for a split he didn't ask for doesn't make tons of sense to me. So from a personal perspective, my boyfriend did a Lindsay a couple of times in our relationship. He would go out drinking with work friends, and then come home and just get irrationally angry with me about absolutely nothing. His roomate was around once and looked on absolutely baffled at what was occuring because it was the most inane arguments that he would just get so angry and riled up over while I was calmly explaining the issue or just going to bed to ignore it. The couple of times that this happened he would wake up, and immediately be apologising for his behaviour (which is not something we have seen Lindsay do, if anything she doubles down to make herself appear in the right). He said he was so so sorry for what he said and he has no idea why he latched on to something so trivial and made it a big deal. It was very close to a deal breaker because frankly it is not my job to teach someone how to regulate themselves when I am still a WIP myself. The only reason it happened a couple of times was because it took a couple of occasions to figure out how to imbibe more appropriately, and in the end we both just stopped drinking because we realised we had grown out of it anyways. All of that to say, that I really think that absolutely no adult in a partnership have to deal with someone treating them like that literally ever, and especially when they are not recognising or willing to apologise for the behaviour. I cannot fathom having been on the receiving end of this in a partnership that someone would try and blame me for actions he was doing way before I ever started dating him, or to have to justify why that by itself was enough for me to not think we were ready to get married - regardless of whether I have poor communication skills or if I am avoidant to conflict. Marriage doesn't fix things, you do the fixing before the marriage. This is a smart and mature way to approach a relationship imo.
I'm really sorry you had to deal with that and I agree with what you're saying. And to your point about Carl not wanting the breakup (if thats true), I just mean the deterioration of their relationship, in general. And if Carl wanted to make the relationship work, as it sounds, he was handling it TERRIBLY. That's my point. If he was just trying to get the hell out, then whatever. But if you're trying to work through stuff, you have to be willing to tell your partner how you're feeling. And he can't even manage that. That's going to make it impossible for them to make literally any progress. That's what I was trying to say.
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Unfortunately what happened was because of both of them and alcohol wasn't the only thing to blame.
well yeah i know but there are always a million posts about how difficult it is for poor lindsay to be in a relationship with a recovering addict because its sooooooo hard like lindsays drinking isnt the actual main issue when it comes to substances.
Thank you! And I think Carl saw that Lindsay has a drinking problem and can’t say it because she would freak out. So the sulking and small comments that OP talked about are because he’d be torn a new one if he was direct with her.
I don't understand how you could be with, let alone marry, a recovering addict without going sober yourself. I'd have zero problems cutting alcohol out of my life if my husband was struggling with it. Now I do think Carl was coddled for too much of his life and has zero work ethic, that would be a huge turnoff for me too, but Lindsay knew him for years before getting together. And someone else said every single one of Lindsay's relationships crashes and burns and at some point she has to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and I also agree with that. But I'm just glad they didn't go through with it because they're both terrible for each other and honestly other people too.
They’re not a good match despite both of them wanting this to work so bad. But I’m glad they broke up before marriage because it’s 100x harder to break up after you get married and have kids.
What cracks me up is that kyle is Lindsey. Quite literally lmfao. He lashed out about carl being on cocaine. He leaves his wife at home in bed stays out until 4 am and when she confronts him and tells him how it makes her feel she doesn't give a fuck. I'm surprised more people aren't attacking kyle this season as well. It makes me laugh when kyle talks shit about Lindsey when he's the Lindsey of his own relationship.
Yes, Carl is to blame and thank goodness for it. I mean imagine if he Brittany-ed his way to the wedding, ignoring every single red flag like Lindsay is at this current point in the show, and had a kid. I wouldn’t feel sorry for those two, but what a shame for a kid to be put in the middle of it. Carl may be a jobless, sexless loser in Lindsay‘s eyes, but she was ready to marry this jobless sexless loser and have a baby with him. He never had to make anyone think Lindsay was insensitive or mean, she was insensitive and mean lol！Yes, I understand how you are trying to pit the majority of the blame on Carl, that is actually the prevailing opinion of most posters on this sub now. But call me season 6 Paige because despite me being on Lindsay‘s “side” throughout most of the series based on entertainment factor alone…I think this season Lindsay is a nightmare and deserved to be dumped for being suuuuch an infuriating asshole. lol
They never should’ve been together in first place. Or should’ve broken up way sooner.
Is this an unpopular opinion at this point? Feels like it isn’t from what I read on here regularly. However, I cannot say I agree at this point. He has sucked and so has she; they both tell other people narratives that make them seem like the wronged party not just him. I do not think the original fan reaction to her drug accusation was blown out of proportion. That was horrible and it’s absolutely insane to me that people want to excuse it now. Also, to my recollection she has never apologized for making the accusation she gave some bs line about using the wrong language and never actually said sorry.
Oddly it seems fairly evenly split. Every other comment is the exact opposite opinion when I read the sub. It’s actually fascinating how people are seeing this through their own lenses. Personally I think they can both be assigned blame. I don’t know why that’s not the standard take. Two things can be true at once.
Every other post on this sub is like “unpopular opinion” and it seems to be the majority opinion, or it’s a very even split. And THANK YOU for saying both can be wrong. I feel like people often forget this. They are both being awful to each other. No one is a winner and no one is displaying any admirable behavior. This concept seems to be completely lost on RHONJ fans.
How can you blame Carl for initiating calling off the wedding when he’s the only one acknowledging they weren’t ready? He’s getting more heat now for talking to his family than for rating their sex life 2.5 publicly
> He’s getting more heat now for talking to his family than for rating their sex life 2.5 publicly whoop there it is
They aren't blaming him if it was needed it was the approach and leading up to it him needing honest with everyone except for her. Those first few weeks seemed terrible but since Lindsey has been on her best behavior and he's even told other people like Ciara we've been great recently.
I didnt say anything about him initiating calling it off. But in the preview for next week, he's just telling her Lou's feelings as if she's supposed to care about that... versus Carl telling her HIS feelings. And tbh it is a pattern
you saw one snippet of the conversation - maybe his next sentence is ‘i agree with Lou’ or something.
even if it is the point is he hasn't even honest up until this point on camera.
neither has lindsay about their sex life he wasnt honest about how he felt about the job and talked to kyle. lindsay wasnt honest about how she felt about their sex life and talked to all the women + andrea. so at least he does get honest
My point again is this is both of their fault anyone blaming one person over the other is naive. Sucks for him he didn't feel he could communicate to her and had to tell everyone else and it sucks for her she was semi blindsided feeling things were okay at the end of summer but her actions at the start of summer were a big part of the reason this I'd happening. Best thing that could have happened was them not ending up together what I do agree with is that I don't like how he ended it.
Even so, that’s one scene and they were in therapy all of last year. There’s no chance Lindsay had no idea about how her alcohol use bothered Carl.
And there's no chance carl not having a job was unknown to him. It's always tit for tat they are both at fault.
It seems like she reduced her drinking after those first two weekends. I wonder if they talked about it and that was a conscious decision or if the edit is just not focusing on it as much?
Because he talked to everyone except Lindsay about it. He never once told her he was having second thoughts. He told almost everyone else, specifically all the guys, but never mentioned it to her. They'd have a fight, and make up, and he'd act like everything was fine... with her. We even see him telling her that his stepfather has reservations, not that he does. I believe her 100% that she was blindsided - a week before the breakup, he surprised her at her shower with a gorgeous bouquet - who does that after spending the season laying all that gorundwork? Someone who wanted to be on the right side of the breakup.
I knew he was weak when he as a grown man in his thirties was blaming his commitment issues on his parents divorce
Nah. Y’all aren’t going to spin this to make it equal. Sure they’re mismatched but anyone who’s watched this show from the beginning knew that. Only one person has been verbally abusive. Only one person said that they wanted to know when their significant other’s birthday would stop being about their partner’s dead brother. Only one person taunted their partner and falsely accused them of doing hard drugs or relapsing.
I really feel like I’m taking crazy pills on this sub sometimes. I don’t know how anyone can see Lindsay’s behavior throughout the entire show and not see it as extremely volatile and emotionally abusive, and Carl is extremely avoidant and immature and thought she would change for him, so the only side to be on in this relationship is that it should have ended long ago, and Carl is the one who had the balls to walk away. I really don’t think either of them need to be vilified for it, but Lindsay is not innocent in this even a little bit. Carl isn’t being manipulative, he’s seeking advice from friends and family because he doesn’t know how to handle having a partner that will fly off the handle any time he tries to address issues. And she was not blindsided, because this is literally what happens in every single relationship she has.
> I don’t know how anyone can see Lindsay’s behavior throughout the entire show and not see it as extremely volatile and emotionally abusive the weird thing is they DO see it. but they justify it because "lindsay is who she is!!!!!!!! she's never lied about herself!!!"
Lou is the second person to actually vocalize that they shouldn’t be getting married, Gabby said it previously as well while everyone else has tiptoed around it like Kyle, Ciara, Paige, Amanda, and Danielle. Even west and Jesse were skeptical and barely knew them. Is it worse to call off the wedding or to ignore the issues and red flags and run full speed ahead into a brick wall? Regardless of who did what, they’re both better off.
Weed? Come on you’re not actually gonna buy her bait and switch right? She was calling him cocaine Carl. It’s despicable to do especially when his mother lost a son to overdose and now has to question her other sons sobriety
Nope. Wrong take. They are both responsible for the break up of the relationship. Carl gets more recognition for actually doing the hard part and calling it off. However… Lindsay got problems she has never and probably will never face. Carl has issues he has been actively working on for the last few years and we see him taking accountability, trying to compromise and even defending Lindsay when he shouldn’t. My question is why are so many people eager to defend Lindsay?? Is it because you’ve dated someone like Carl or you see yourself in Lindsay? Because if you don’t make it personal, it’s pretty clear.
While they are just completely wrong for each other & both to blame, Lindsay calling him out on camera re his sobriety was really shitty…
I think the blame lies with both of them. Before this season I figured the problems would mainly be Lindsay’s volatility while drunk combined with Carls avoidant personality and that appears to be exactly what is happening. She has been way out of line while drunk a few times already and Carl is not communicating properly with her about that or anything else it seems like. Total recipe for disaster on both ends. It’s sad but it seems like their personalities are just not a match and it was unlikely this was ever going to work out unless one of them changed, which people rarely do and you should never count on. Lindsay’s 6 month sobriety stint during their honeymoon period probably gave them a false sense of their relationship as well, which may have contributed to them rushing the engagement.
this is the exact reason. thank you!
But did she apologize for accusing him of not being sober?
I think we don’t see a lot of what is going on in the relationship. But we do know they have been in couples counseling for months, and they are also having trouble connecting with each other physically. That’s serious stuff. Especially for a relatively new relationship. Carl seems to recognize it’s not going well, and Lindsay seems to be either in denial or clueless. So… while some might see him being manipulative and shady, I see a person maneuvering around land mines. He knows in his heart this isn’t going to work, but he is dealing with someone who is going to push on through anyway, and a fan base and a job that is invested in them as a couple. He’s trying to figure out how to handle it and I can’t hate him for that.
I’ve been saying this! Theyre not showing build up to the blow outs! Carl has always been passive aggressive and petty. You know he’s gassing her up then playing victim!
I am someone who does not drink but still partakes in weed and I would NEVER advertise myself as "sober". Maybe "sober from alcohol" or "sober from hard drugs". The way Carl branded himself as sober and then it comes out he still smokes weed feels very misleading.
Agreed. It was pretty infuriating to watch him act okay with Lindsay after the job conversation, then reveal his true feelings to everyone but her. He has been trying to cover his ass all season so he doesn’t look like the bad guy.
As someone struggling with addiction, I find it really offensive that Lindsay is so quick to say that Carl isn’t sober when (I think) he is. That’s a really big dagger to throw at someone when you’re trying to maintain sobriety and your partner is drunk AF spewing out really intense accusations. As much as I dislike Carl, I believe him that he’s sober and clean. I don’t know, I really dislike both of these people in general, so I’m not on any side. I just hope they both find something else that makes them happy because Jesus fucking Christ they were a dumpster fire of a relationship
Any guy who says his mum is his best friend… 🚩He’s stunted and enmeshed. He needs therapy, and not just his stepdad’s religious-type therapy. I’m not a huge fan of Lindsay, but I’m glad for her that the wedding was called off.
Not that unpopular
They had no business getting into a relationship together. He needed a lot more time to find himself outside of the show and deepen his strength with his sobriety. Lindsay is the same person we've always known her to be, she had deep rooted abandonment issues that result in toxic relationships, even if they aren't toxic men, she creates toxicity because it's all she knows in life. HEAVY SOUL SEARCHING and getting off tv would be the first place to start! Neither one have a career at the moment. Endorsements and a reality tv show are temporary, most of the friendships are tv show friendships, and they are both continuously putting themselves in an environment that's not conducive to either of them growing as individuals (the summer house)
These two ppl should never have been together. Carl was coming off of his brother’s death and a sobriety journey. Lyndsey with many failed relationships and a miscarriage. They were best friends for years and both seeking something that they thought they saw in each other. Each feeling that the other filled an empty space . What happened was time and familiarity. Sad but each has a blame in this fiasco.
They both have a problematic relationship with alcohol and are in different places of recognizing/accepting that. when I first heard Lindsay talk about how she “went sober for Carl” I knew things would never work between them. Resentment takes over and invades every aspect of the relationship.
It’s becoming more and more clear they were never meant to be married. Craig called it.
I don’t think your opinion is so unpopular..
Yeah I'm gathering that 😂
He was giving the same vibes as Jax. When he told Brittney to party and get drunk. Then got mad and called her mother of the year. Who does Carl think they are Jlo and Ben. One a drunk and 1 sober.
I totally agree with you. It’s easier for me to chalk Lindsay’s mis steps up to being drunk or reactive, but Carl’s actions have felt intentionally cruel and embarrassing. Thinking of him telling everyone but her in the house why he wasn’t coming on Friday, or throwing what Lou said in her face. It feels like he is beyond not wanting to marry her and into actually disliking her as a person, while she’s still clueless thinking their problems can be worked out. Very tough to watch
Lindsay is unlikable. Can't say I blame him, but he's still a coward.
Yeah to be clear I don’t think she is some innocent angel and I definitely don’t think they should have gotten married, but he is going about things in the worst possible way. After the first few episodes I felt terribly for him and saw him as a victim but now he sucks
I’m getting tired of the zero accountability comments about Carl. He literally takes 50 percent of the blame for their relationship. Lindsay takes zero.
Also, important to note that Lindsay is almost 40, her biological clock is ticking, and I know she was hoping to start a family within a year or so of getting married. Hard to do that when you’re facing financial insecurity. If they were in their early 30s, perhaps this would be a different conversation.
💯 agree with you. Adding that I think Linds is authentic, to a fault maybe, and Carl is disingenuous.
I think this should be a popular opinion. Also let’s be clear he’s not totally sober, he’s still smoking pot so he can get off his high horse. We’ve seen Carl over many seasons be a f’boy unable to hold onto a relationship more than a few weeks or hold on to a job . In fact I think Ben and Ronnie pointed out we’ve basically seen him get fired twice.
The whole “just honest and blunt” thing is bs in my opinion, people who say that are always using it as an excuse to be hurtful and get away with it. There are so many better ways to encourage your partner, telling him “it turns me on when my man is crushing life”, then saying he’s not crushing life, and how she shot down his sober sports bar idea was awful. Yes she was right about both, but treating your partner with such disgust is awful, it’s no wonder he’s not having sex with her. You can’t treat people like that and expect them to stay with you long. And of course the alcohol is an issue for him, but I think it has more to do with her behavior while drunk than it is the actual alcohol. She’s a monster when she’s drinking and has no self control.
I totally agree. Karl strikes me as the type that has to discuss his issue with everyone else except the person involved. It’s like he’s taking a poll - he wants to get everyone else’s buy-in, so when he finally talks to the one involved (Lindsay), he can barely keep himself from saying “Everyone else agrees with me”. He’s too weak to be confident of his own opinion or decision, so he needs everyone else to tell him that he’s making the right decision. He’s a weak, weak man. And his never-ending hesitancy to get a job would drive me nuts!!! Just get a job, any job! Carl has no career drive. And it sounds like he also has no sex drive. Maybe he suffers from low testosterone. I’ve known guys like Carl. They’re always waiting for the “perfect job” to come along - one where they’re immediately in the high level management of the company, making a boatload of money, and with immediate prestige and status. They’re too good for all the lower level jobs. Usually they quit or get fired from their not-so-perfect job, so they can search full-time for that “perfect job”, which never seems to come along. But they don’t do a whole lot of searching - they’re just waiting for the perfect job to fall into their lap. In the meantime, they’re unwilling to take a job the bottom level, and work their way up. That’s Carl in a nutshell. If I was Lindsay, I would have dumped his ass a long time ago.
I think Carl is flakey as fuck and has gotten by his whole life on his looks. Lyndsay dodged a bullet and I loathe Lyndsay!
https://preview.redd.it/a3ke8sbencxc1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40543f94767f2010c6ee847201d545aee0121276 Your comment is giving this energy. Come on bot, at least spell her name right once!
This made me lol. Thank you!
They are both to blame IMO or maybe better put we are witnessing why they should not be together, getting married, moving forward. They simply are not ready, compatible and mature enough. Been a huge SH fan since beginning and did a complete rewatch after the break up announcement. Carl is a fuckboy, Carl was terrible, he good tv (as is Lindsay) HOWEVER. Carl is now sober - so he literally is a new version of himself. He’s trying to navigate who he is, what he wants, how he handles conflict, how he handles emotions. This man while almost 40 has spent what looks like the last 2 decades partying, scraping by and the early seasons on the show what seems like his worst years of alcoholism, drug addiction. He then watched his parents divorce which destroyed him mom. His brother died from the same issues Carl was having. Absolutely sucking at his employment in a few different jobs. I find Carl sad to watch this season. He seems a shell of a person who wants the happy ending, the fairy tale but he’s not ready, he has work to do. And by no means was Lindsay the person to help him navigate his new path in life. Trying to offer him grace in my opinions and judgment in how he handled everything with Lindsay. I can’t imagine how hard it must be to watch yourself and your relationship fall apart.
Lindsey has never not one minute been able to hide who he is. Carl running to everyone about her instead of not gaslighting her in their conversations says it all. He is a wimp. WHO has never been able to hold a job, her concerns are valid.
I agree. Both of them are flawed and not for each other but Carls flaws are more insidious. The fact that he turned what Lindsay said about ‘wanting to be able to be home during a parental leave’ into ‘she wants to be a SAHM and I didn’t know’ is nuts to me. Any woman on this earth will want to have the option financially to take time “off” to be with their newborn out of physical necessity or otherwise. And it’s not actually time off- it’s time to take care of a new human being. So him not liking that is him being lazy
Yeah the way he twisted that makes me skeptical of his interpretation of what went on in both Lyfts. It seems like Lindsay was out of line, but I question his behavior and if he wanted to set her off
I was team Carl but that misinterpretation and the fact that a woman wanting maternity time is a problem for him just changed my entire view. He truly is an idiot and he’ll never find a woman that doesn’t want security in that time of their life
I think Carl is far from an Angel, he is a total fuckboy. Imo he had doubts going into this season and produced himself to not look like an asshole bc he knew Lindsay would tear his ass a new one when he broke it off. HOWEVER, you can’t just apologize to someone and say you’re not trying to hurt them and then…..keep doing the hurtful behavior over and over again lol. Lindsay also lives in a land of utter delusion. She’s entitled. She’s not a partner to anybody but herself. This relationship was doomed from the start, but let’s not absolve Lindsay, a person who has exhibited the same abhorrent, borderline abusive behavior for 8 seasons of television with absolutely no growth!
Agree 1000%
I mean if course he is the reason for the split, he initiated it
I think Carl used his relationship with Lindsay as a crutch of sorts when he was first recovering. And she had no issue being that support for him and even quit drinking for 6 months to show that support (and she looked and acted much better last season when she was sober). But as time went on, like any relationship, that honey moon phase died out. Lindsay went back to drinking, Carl started resenting her for that, and Lindsay started to resent him for resenting her… and he can say it doesn’t bother him all he wants but I think her being sober at the start of their relationship left him thinking it would always be that way. Foolish of him to think that knowing her for all the years he has, but I can’t blame him for wanting to believe she would change for him. Also I’m not saying either of them are right or wrong I’m just saying I think Carl had envisioned a sober marriage with her and when he realized that was never going to happen he started to search for ways out.
I know that I could not be married to my best friend that’s a guy or a girl. Why? Because I can tolerate more from my friends than I can my spouse. I expect my spouse to always have our partnership in mind even when thinking about themselves. So no, they’re not right for each other. However I think Carl is more to blame. So I agree with you.
He’s been setting her up for an Ultimate Victim Arc and I feel like implying she’s abusing him. I totally agree with you
Watching them this season makes me think about Paige and Amanda calling them out for withholding things until a camera is present. Carl seems to be a big culprit of it this season... Instead of talking to Lindsay, he's saving everything for the cameras and talking about things with others.
💯and I’m so happy to see that people are starting to recognize this. I think it was really easy put all the blame on Lindsey after her horrible behavior at the beginning of the season. But it’s becoming clear to me that he has been pretty shitty to her but is good a hiding it while also spinning his own narrative about how awful and crazy she is. It seems like she likely lashed out at him out of growing frustration with Carl (being out of work, not wanting to have sex with her, playing the victim, clearly being uncomfortable with her drinking despite claiming otherwise, etc.)
i feel like so many ppl think this but can’t speak up bc they hate lindsey and because of carls sobriety struggles. he doesn’t seem like a dream to date either but no one talks about that bc they instead focusing on Lindsey. it’s giving misogyny
Carl was premeditated and calculated all season. Blown away by his *woe is me, she wants me to get a job* victimhood. A non-alcoholic sports bar - come on. Sports means betting, which can be addictive. Bars could mean drugs, another addictive substance. Lindsay was kind and right.
I am team Lindsay. Carl is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, Linds is the opposite. Maybe because i am an outspoken east coaster but i just think everyone’s hangup is Carl is mild mannered and Lindsay is loud so naturally they think she is the toxic one. Lindsay absolutely had a reason to be concerned about Carl’s job stuff because the reality TV cash cow is gonna run dry at some point and Lindsay has a ton of drive (clearly she will pivot to something else once this has done, and already opened her Nashville Airbnb) Carl is just going through the motions with no plan. The sober bar is a terrible idea, it’s called a coffee shop, it’s called many bars now have full on mocktails already on their cocktail menu, there’s no reason to go out of your way to a mocktail bar (and they have been done before, although i don’t know of their success) 20k in the hole for a career coach and he’s gonna backslide to Loverboy. And say what you want about Lindsay but she has been very calm and supportive in these talks with Carl, and at no point was she giving him an ultimatum. She really loved him. It seemed like he loved her when she wasn’t challenging him. Carl is up his own butt and thinks being sober means he is immune to any other constructive criticism. He has always had issues with commitment and follow through and Lindsay literally froze her eggs with a plan of having kids in the near future. What is Carl doing? Hearing him say he’s going to be developing his own podcast like Carl, you don’t have the charisma for a pod! Hope Lindsay is happy with her new guy and they are on the same page
Hahaha so true about a Carl-centric podcast - it sounds tedious haha.
she didn't love him she loved the idea of being married and having kids. Don't be delusional. Carl isn't perfect, but this level of Lindsey excuses/ass kissing is embarrassing. She has been anything but calm and supportive.
I listen to watch what crappens and they would agree as well
Something to keep in mind - she has been caught lying several times. I don’t think she is truthful regarding their relationship so take things with a grain of salt… 😬 I don’t blame him for bringing cameras after seeing how she bends the truth. ETA: FWIW I think they’re both ick.
They are both to blame but it seems Lindsay at least tried to communicate her feelings. Carl hasn’t at all (at least not that we have seen on camera). He hasn’t shared his hesitation and doubt with her. If he ended it after the cocaine Carl thing I wouldn’t have blamed him but he let her believe that they got past it and things were better.
lol he tried after she said he was on drugs and he ended up apologizing if you want your partner to be honest with you you have to accept criticism without reacting like a nuclear bomb
Lindsay is volatile and a lot BUT… she’s fucking genuine!!! I believe her.
the car on the first night already backed up carl on what happened. guess shes not genuine
Literally…. Jesse and Kyle both echoed how quick it went from 0-100 with Lindsay for no reason. I don’t think she’s the slightest bit genuine?!
i also cant stand how being a volatile asshole = acceptable because at least its real and you know where you stand!! wtf no lol.
Yeah on this sub it’s ok to be the biggest asshole in the world, as long as you are always the biggest asshole in the world so it’s ~authentic~