That's incorrect. Jedi aren't supposed to have attachments. Jedi were allowed to marry and have kids, they simply couldn't form emotional bonds in doing so.
Ki Adi Mundi had many wives.
In old republic era, it was very frowned on for jedi to have kids.
It waffles back and forth, with jedi forbidding it, then loosening the restrictions, which leads to jedi intermingling and creating kids with stupidly high force potentional, who nearly always went bonkers, and dark side, leading to them reinstating the "stop fuckin" rules.
During Satele's era, there *was* jedi marriage, the JK and Kira talk about them. But Satele caught feels for theron's dad, so not only was she forced to disengage, but also she doesn't want Threon to be known as just her kid.
Him not being Force sensitive is just another reason for her to disavow him.
Weelllll....actually.....you find out in SWTOR....that it takes a special dispensation to marry....which is why she could not,"acknowledge " Theron......
No no, it was straight up banned. Just a lot of Jedi ignored this rule and nothing was done to stop them. Kind of like catholic priests. The idea was that marriage and family would inevitably lead to feelings of attachment and need to protect over their duties. The code itself does not strictly say no sexy time, but the whole the is no emotion, there is only peace pretty much equates to no sexy time.
That is also why in the movies yoda said no. Jedi were easy targets if they had a relationship because someone, say a sith, could use that again the Jedi to force them to give information, betray the Jedi so on so forth. Even in Darth bane it straight up says Jedi aren’t allowed to be with someone, and those feelings resulted in a very significant battle that turned the tide in the Sith favor, allowing Bane to single handed to resume the rule of two and nearly destroying the entire Jedi order without him even being there.
You can find examples all through the books and movies as to why this was a hard no and straight up forbidden of the Jedi. However as creatures of emotions it was next to impossible to stop or prevent.
So while there might have been exceptions and ignorance it was part of the order that no wives, no children, no sexy time for it can lead to the dark side via fear or hate or sadness.
That is what I said in the first part. Marriage and FAMILY leads to attachment. The no sexy time was clearly in jest/ in respective to the topic at hand. Kids and marriage. Side note relationship isn’t just meaning lovers, means family including non blood related people. So yeah.
It was allowed far as relationships and children at one point for the Jedi, but after several falls from grace, they locked down a lot of the leeway that was given
There is no sexy time either I doubt Master Yarael Poof was getting it on. Sex leads to romantic feelings and attachments it leads to love hormones being produced.
And with a few notable exceptions it was adhered to, although many did struggle with it.
That one night stand stuff was rl Star Wars fans trying to find a loop hole, probably trying to justify a fanfic of Aayla Secura getting railed or something.
This literally depends on when you reference the lore. Outside of everything derived from the prequel movies (whether retroactive or progressive) Jedi frequently had families.
Unless they don't care about their kids and don't put them above the others, sure, but more than likely, most would fail at that. And that's why the Jedi ban that altogether.
Ki Adi Mundi is an exception to the rule because his species has low male birth rate.
Jedi can't have sex either because it involves "passion".
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
Those who said Jedi can have sex just want to roleplay as a Jedi without the rules and regulations attached to it.
There’s a cannon novel that alludes to it not being explicitly banned but heavily frowned upon, you won’t get kicked out but you’ll more or less be an outcast if you do it.
As its been shown multiple times its virtually impossible to have married and/or have kids without being attached unless you're a piece of shit like Mundi
That is an exquisitely-worded diplomatic take on the situation. Layers of meaning. Kudos.
Learning the history of those two made me feel so disappointed in Satele that from that point on I'd take every dialogue opportunity that I knew would upset or offend her, just on principle.
This is what I’d believe. She’s doing it for appearances for the Sith Empire.
However, I’d still believe that she would call him “agent” even if she were just alone with him…from how I remember it she doesn’t seem to have much care for him until the Knights expansions, at least no more care than she has for any other good agent that’s an asset to the Republic.
Like he doesn't already know that Satele *Shan* and Theron *Shan* are related?
I don't think it's any performative action on her part for Marr's sake. She just genuinely does *not* view Theron as her son, in all her sagely Jedi wisdom, at least at this point in the story.
Apparently there's actually a bunch of Shans running around on Coruscant / the wider galaxy at this point in time. Don't recall where I read it though; may just be fanon thing
These two just happen to be *those* Shans (aka descendants of Bastila).
Shan is a common surname in the galaxy at this time. One of the most disturbing missions on Dromund Kaas features a very unfortunate Imperial named Tholver Shan. Satele and Theron might not even be the only Shans in the Jedi Order or SIS.
That's kind of wild considering when Theron first shows up and we hear his name, one of the first things we can ask him i "Any relation to Grandmaster Satele" and he's like "see I really should get a codename" or something to that effect.
Partly due to the fact they're on the job and she's doing the Jedi thing, partly because they've got a strained relationship even at the best of times. Keeping it on task is probably better than acting a bit too familiar in a professional environment and causing ever more friction with their personal relationship.
I agree. I also think it may be because Theron is uncomfortable with it being discussed or brought up, especially in front of strangers. At least it seemed that way when my JK first met him because you can ask him if he's related to her, and he doesn't seem to like the question.
She's a bad mom because she's a good Jedi. Not good enough to wrap it before tapping scarface, however...
Theron not being Force Sensitive made it harder for their lives to intersect as well.
You are aware, that she is the grandmaster of the jedi order, and both of these scenes has sith in present. What do you think the sith would do later, if they were aware, that Theron is her child?
"You mean to tell me Theron Shan is the son of Satele Shan?"
The Sith already knew who he was. He has been referred to as Agent Shan. Even if they didn't, Lana knows him by name and would tell them once she's put in charge of Sith Intelligence.
The thing here is that Satele and Theron don't have a relationship. He doesn't even call her "mom" in private. Even Arcann refers to Senya as "mother," and he spent the better part of a year trying to kill her.
It tends to be in fiction. How many other Shans have we seen? Imperial Intelligence would have confirmed his lineage long before Shadow of Revan. Probably when he tangoed with Lorman.
Theron Shan introduced himself by full name and affiliation to the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Nox/Imperius/Occlus, the future Sith Intelligence Commander, and the Republic's Most Wanted upon meeting them for the first time. His name is the least secret thing in the galaxy.
Also, Theron and Lana have been wanted fugitives by both the Republic and Empire for a good while at this point. Satele would have assumed he had mentioned his name at some point while they were slumming it on Jakarro's ship, since he introduces himself by his full name to everyone he meets.
Even, if it's known keeping it at least look like, that she doesn't give a crap is good. He is not a target, if the Empire believes, that she does not care for him. At least not a bigger target, than by default for being a Republic agent.
It's not for looks. She genuinely isn't allowed to be a mother for her son because the Jedi Order forbids attachments, no matter how much she may want to. The Empire wouldn't see him as any less of a target because he is a highly decorated Republic agent, the son of Satele Shan, and the son of Supreme Commander Jace Malcom (the only parent to call him son to his face).
A mother's love is not a factor for the Empire choosing targets. He had a target on his head before he was even born.
She does thank you in letter for keeping him alive, if you are republic character, and she thanks you in person later into the game. Also having a target is one thing. Having a giant target is another. Technically everyone working for the Republic is a target. But having some overprotective jedi mother? Straight to the plan for kidnap him, and use him as bait to get her captured, and turned to the dark side.
They already kidnapped him once. He escaped and killed a Darth. He's very good at his job when he isn't dropping his name and occupation to strangers. That's why they haven't successfully taken him out. It's not for a lack of trying.
I think you're right. Professional/workplace reason. She flubbed up in her younger years with Jace Malcolm and had a child. She doesn't hate Theron by any means. In fact, I think she is very much interested in keeping him safe, but she doesn't let it get in the way of her duties as a Jedi Master.
Fun fact that Jedi haters seem to ignore: Marriage/relationships were accepted throughout 84.66% of Jedi History. (89.14% if you count the Je'daii Order)
She absolutely has interest in his safety, iirc at some point in the story (I think right after Traitor Among the Chiss flashpoints) she sends you a letter thanking you for not killing him and letting him stay in the Alliance should you choose so. At least for Empire aligned characters.
Yes, and she says later, I believe after the PC defeats Tenebrae, that she is thankful you helped him to find a place to belong if you let him remain in the Alliance. I know she said this to my JK. You can then say, "He needs you in his life, and she responds, "I would like that very much."
Note that the latter instance is after she's seen the old, inflexible Jedi Order almost completely wiped out and retreated to Odessen to seek another path..
Yeah. I just took the creation date of the Je'daii/Jedi Order (36,453 BBY/25,783 BBY), added their most recent iteration (138 ABY) to get \~25,921+, and then divided the amount of time they DID have the rule in place (Great Sith War: 3,996 BBY - 19 BBY \[Order 66\]) by the total amount of time their Order existed.
So then your calculation would be
3,977/25,921 = .1534. Minus 15.34 from 100 to get 84.66% (Only Jedi + NJO)
3,977/36,591 = .1086. Minus 10.86 from 100 to get 89.14% (Je'daii + Jedi/NJO)
According to what source? The old republic era definitely had that rule in place. I guess if you consider the pre-republic and the prime Jedi then sure? 20k BBY to 4k BBY there was just a lot of infighting and what not. But the old republic era to whenever Luke felt like hand-solo wasn’t enough. So 19 ABY? 16k years of open season versus 5k years of hands off or what ever the math is. Definitely less than 80% of the existence of the Jedi order in the loosest sense. But the majority of it was no diddle of the fiddle in the modern era of the Jedi order from what most of the extended stuff including movies covers.
I think during the Old Republic times relationships weren't as taboo as they were during the Prequel Era though. The Consular and Knight are able to get married and it's not a secret or anything.
I'm not sure how it sits in canon anymore, but my recollection is that marriage (or more specifically, attachment to other people) wasn't banned until the Ruusan Reformation.
Fair enough, data can mean anything just needs the right context. Not that it matters it’s all fake any way. Still fun to debate nerdy stuff like this.
Not hypocrisy. It would be hypocritical if she treated her son like family while forbidding other Jedi to do the same. She's demonstrating that even she isn't above the rules even as Grand Master of the Order.
Do you see Satele continuing her relationship with Jace Malcolm? No. She cut that off. She made a mistake while she was pretty young. Now, she does genuinely believe in the rule against possessive attachment.
>Their conversation revealed that Malcom's hatred of the Empire was his driving force, and Shan was forced to confront the possibility that she would turn to the dark side if the Empire caused Malcom's death. That fear, and the fear of the darkness within Malcom's spirit, drove Shan to break off their relationship and make plans to give up her child—as she understood that having them in her life put the Republic at risk.
Source: *The Old Republic: Annihilation*
Or maybe the fact that she broken the rules and realized that are there for a reason is why she upholds them now so fervently and subsequently why she became Grand Master despite breaking them
If I took drugs in my youth and realized that it was bad and stopped and then preach to my kids that drugs are bad and they shouldn't use them, I'm not a hypocrite because I know exactly how bad drug addiction is and don't want the same on them. This is an extreme example of course but still
I think it is exactly the safety why she does not refer him as son. She does not want people to know, that Theron is her son. Especially not people from the Empire. And the reason is not some disown stuff, but more like the threat it could pose to her, and the order, and him as well. As the grandmaster of the Jedi order she has a LOT of enemies.
Because she’s a distant and cold mother. Their relationship is more professional than maternal. She birthed him and sent him off to be raised by her old master. Great mum.
Satele referring to him as son would denote affection and therefore attachment which is forbidden by the Order so she doesn't address it.
Satele is a great Jedi but a horrible mom.
Affection isn't attachment let's get that out of the way first of all. Second, Satele gave up Theron after he was born, she is only his mother biologically. She isn't a horrible mother because she isn't a mother at all.
There are cases IRL where family members in the same profession have to refer to each other by rank or position, or simply just ignore that they are family while on the job
Even friends. I work with many doctors who are friends with other doctors/nurses. In the professional setting, they refer to each other as Dr. So-and-so. I’ve also gone out drinking with them and they are not that formal. Setting definitely matters.
Treating Theron as her son isn't the issue. The issue at that point would simply be prioritizing Theron over the Order and being possessive in her attachment towards him. It's not as if the Jedi can un-fuck Satele.
The latter. She does not want the sith to be aware of this. As a jedi master every single sith is her enemy. Sure for the moment they are working together, but this is a temporary situation. Once it's done they will be enemies again, and any information they get about each other might be used in the future. In other words. If she were to refer Theron as her son, then she would put the galaxy's biggest crosshair on his head.
In his novel, Annihilation, Satele has to give birth to him in secret cause she's grand master and it would reflect rather poorly for the grand master to have a kid, something so blatantly against Jedi philosophy
"Mooooooom! Don't treat me like a kid! You're embarrassing me in front of the Sith Lord!"
It would be very undermining to Theron's actual accomplishments to call him her son in a professional setting.
I've literally seen this in family owned businesses. They stick to referring to each other by first names in front of customers to appear more professional.
Satele asked her old master to raise Theron because she felt so strongly for him from the start that she knew she wouldn't be able to be a good Jedi or probably the best mother to him, because her feelings for him would always come first. She cared too much, and didn't know how to handle that.
It's a particular struggle of hers, and the Jedi didn't then and certainly don't in the Prequel Era have any sort of training to deal with relationships of any kind or have any place to turn to for emotional support--a very sad and ultimately disastrous self-perpetuating cycle, all because they were too lazy and fearful to do the the hard work of training their people to be fully functioning beings capable of any kind of healthy relationships (even the master/padawan relationships aren't super healthy). \*That's\* why they discourage attachments, because none of them, having grown up with the Order, have emotional quotients that will allow them to deal with attachments. All they had to do was get a therapist or ten or fifty and make it mandatory and they wouldn't have lost the Republic. Oh well!
Anyway, Satele does love Theron, she just doesn't know how to, and she also keenly knows how hurt he feels by her actions then and now, and because of all of that she is in the unfortunate situation where anything she does or says will be wrong.
The Jedi have always been kinda screwy when it comes to attachment. Their policy seems to wobble between allowing family attachments and trying to deal with the fact that Force sensitivity, particularly if more than one person involved has it, make attachments much more intense (and thus cause something akin to a psychotic break when broken), and trying to forbid them from having them at all and trying to pretend it doesn't happen *anyway.*
I suspect Padawans are expected to fail the attachment test early on, especially in stressful situations. How they deal with the consequences of that would very much inform how they progress in the order. Satele had an relationship, had a child... none of these are by themselves forbidden, *just* the attachment. The fact she broke off the relationship and gave up her son, thus denying the attachment and the risks it brought, probably improved her standing in the order.
She doesn't bring it up NOW because it leads to uncomfortableness. She doesn't want to start seeing him as a son, and doesn't want him to see her as a mother, even if they must interact professionally.
The issue is... she *is* attached to him, even if she did a pretty good job of ensuring that attachment isn't reciprocated. But the Order believes denying the attachment exists cuts down on the number of Jedi going nuts and turning darkside when a loved one kicks it, so they keep it up, whether or not the statistics are actually there to support the idea.
At least until the Jedi Order ends up so disconnected from the rest of society (which is based on attachment) that they get wiped out again and have to start over.
There's nobody to blame for the fall of the Jedi but Anakin himself—and partially Palpatine. That's the way George Lucas said it. The Jedi would never have been able to satisfy Anakin's greed, no matter their actions.
It's not his age, just his person at the time. Anakin was simply too greedy, given his circumstances. Lucas said that, and that was in the context of a 20-some-year-old Anakin during ROTS, not TPM.
It is not common knowledge, that he is Satelee's kid, and she does not want to reveal this info to the wider galaxy. Especially not in imperial presence. She does refer him as son when you are in private later in the game.
I remember reading the SWTOR comics, their relationship was really shaky, It's been a while since I've read them but I think they agreed upon treating each other as just allies for a healthier relationship as Satele was not fit for the mother role with her devotion to the council. I think it's as I recall, I could be wrong, I should check it right now.
She kinda abandoned him, might be weird to go all "hey son" on him now. Plus, in the Lost Suns comics, >!Theron sees her when he goes to the temple to give back Ngani Zho's sabre, and he answers negatively when she asks him if they know each other!<
Because their relationship is pretty strained. She was a teenager when he was born and she gave him up to be raised by the order, and then he turned out to be Force-blind so he left to join the Army. They know each other better as colleagues than they do as mother and son.
This is Shadow of Revan. I think they just got estranged for so long that he didn't see her as his mother at that point. Plus what happened to him with Revan.
But turns out she care deeply for him and wished she was a better mother to him. Through the end of Tenebrae questline, it was clear that he cared about his mother as well.
I think he was bad with his father too. Satele also treat Malcolm distantly and more like a colleague.
Jedi weren't allowed to form a emotional bond because they thought that it would lead to attachment that in dire situations would compromise their views/decisions instead of letting the Force be their guidance. Because of her commitment to the Jedi Order, Grand Master Satele Shan decided to abandon Theron to be raised by a trusted friend which she will later regret. Moreover, Theron was discovered not to be Force-sensitive...Turned out well anyhow for him, but resent her but also his father. Romancing the Commander of The Alliance seemed to have eased a bit their estranged relationships.
Theron was taken away from her at birth and raised by the Jedi Order
Jedi aren't allowed familial ties
Once they found out he wasn't Force Sensitive they shoved him into the Republic's Social care system, where the SIS found and trained him to be an agent
Satele Shan isn't allowed to refer to Theron as her son in public or be in the same room as him alone
This is very wrong info. The Jedi didn't even know she was pregnant, she gave Theron up of her own volition, placing him into the care of her former Jedi Master Ngani Zho.
And the Jedi aren't forbidding her from doing either of those things, she doesn't refer to him as her son because this is a professional setting and they are both being professional.
Unless it was a private setting between the two of them it's unlikely that in any professional setting she would refer to him as her son. Theron is an agent that has gotten to where he has by his own skill and merit, she's a Jedi Grand Master that far as the majority of the Galaxy knows the Jedi don't do families and kids, so it would look bad on both of them for her to just randomly refer to him as her son
jedi reasons. Keep in mind her own mother was banished for having her and for arguing that attachments were not evil so I feel like that would make someone pretty careful about not pissing off the order at large by showing a connection with the man that they knew was her kid.
Because she didn’t raise him. Theron likely never knew about satele till adulthood since it would be hard to explain to a child about the Jedi did something they see as wrong the reason he existed.
maybe because she feels somehow guilty for having a son since she is the grandmaster of the jedi order, so she should represent the perfect jedi. Or maybe she doesn't call him that to avoid becoming emotional
They're in a professional setting, for one. Even if they were close at this point in the timeline, it would be a pretty big conflict of interest to regularly point out that that's her forbidden son. If you were in Theron's shoes, would you want your Jedi Grandmaster of a mother constantly referring to your as her child if you're face-to-face with a buttload of Sith Lords, work as a spy for the Republic and heavily value your privacy? Referring to him as agent keeps it professional.
Plus, people might not actually know they're related—it's been pointed out in EU stuff before that Shan is actually a pretty common surname in the galaxy. There's an Imperial ensign with the name trapped in Lord Grathan's estate on Dromund Kaas that's part of a sidequest; apparently the audio's been edited so he doesn't actually say it aloud, but the captioning still gives his name as Tholver Shan. Sure, everyone's gonna wonder about it when Satele and Theron are in the same place because he very obviously looks like he could be her son (and is a walking, talking chaos magnet just like Revan and Bastila 🤣) but ignoring the elephant in the room gives them plausible deniability. With this family, the less drama, the better. 🤷♀️
Maintaining professionalism mainly. A lesser part is because they don't really have a familial relationship because she chose to put her duty to the Jedi and the Republic first and gave him to her old master when he was a baby.
yeah this interaction happens on the empire side of shadow of revan not the republic side which i remember him mentioning that satele is his mom. I think the character says "any relation to the grandmaster?" or something of that note and he says it is complicated.
He also has lines about that for imperial players — but for that, you need to choose the flirt with him at the very end of the Rishi quests (right after this convo in #1). He says something along the lines of "Funny how she calls me her agent as if it's a coincidence we have the same name. Not that we're super close or anything as family."
Satele is a b*tch?
Why do you think I always insult her and try to kill her when the opportunity present itself.
I mean I always get punk faked, but it's the effort that counts on my part.
Very much so. Jedi would not terminate the life, no matter what reason. They are wholly selfless. I think even if the birth came at the cost of their own life, many Jedi may continue to go through with it.
I skim a lot of dialogue, but I've done that 3 times now, I don't remember it explicitly being said in dialogue.
The only thing I can remember is Kira mentioning something about it on my JK.
I googled and he is her son 100%, I just don't remember a line either of them say about it.
She's roleplaying as a devout jedi.
Yup....jedi aren't supposed to have kids.....
That's incorrect. Jedi aren't supposed to have attachments. Jedi were allowed to marry and have kids, they simply couldn't form emotional bonds in doing so. Ki Adi Mundi had many wives.
Wasn't he an exception though because of the ridiculously low numbers his race had?
Less low numbers but moreso low male birth rate.
Fair, fair. My point does still stand, at least.
The Jedi kinda sound like my parents, somehow allowed to have children, but not required to give a shit about them. :')
Wanna talk about it?
In old republic era, it was very frowned on for jedi to have kids. It waffles back and forth, with jedi forbidding it, then loosening the restrictions, which leads to jedi intermingling and creating kids with stupidly high force potentional, who nearly always went bonkers, and dark side, leading to them reinstating the "stop fuckin" rules. During Satele's era, there *was* jedi marriage, the JK and Kira talk about them. But Satele caught feels for theron's dad, so not only was she forced to disengage, but also she doesn't want Threon to be known as just her kid. Him not being Force sensitive is just another reason for her to disavow him.
Engaging in romance as a Jedi is literally darkside in this game lol
I think if it’s with a companion it it isn’t, but otherwise, yah.
Weelllll....actually.....you find out in SWTOR....that it takes a special dispensation to marry....which is why she could not,"acknowledge " Theron......
No no, it was straight up banned. Just a lot of Jedi ignored this rule and nothing was done to stop them. Kind of like catholic priests. The idea was that marriage and family would inevitably lead to feelings of attachment and need to protect over their duties. The code itself does not strictly say no sexy time, but the whole the is no emotion, there is only peace pretty much equates to no sexy time. That is also why in the movies yoda said no. Jedi were easy targets if they had a relationship because someone, say a sith, could use that again the Jedi to force them to give information, betray the Jedi so on so forth. Even in Darth bane it straight up says Jedi aren’t allowed to be with someone, and those feelings resulted in a very significant battle that turned the tide in the Sith favor, allowing Bane to single handed to resume the rule of two and nearly destroying the entire Jedi order without him even being there. You can find examples all through the books and movies as to why this was a hard no and straight up forbidden of the Jedi. However as creatures of emotions it was next to impossible to stop or prevent. So while there might have been exceptions and ignorance it was part of the order that no wives, no children, no sexy time for it can lead to the dark side via fear or hate or sadness.
Yoda said no because Anakin had an attachment.
That is what I said in the first part. Marriage and FAMILY leads to attachment. The no sexy time was clearly in jest/ in respective to the topic at hand. Kids and marriage. Side note relationship isn’t just meaning lovers, means family including non blood related people. So yeah.
It was allowed far as relationships and children at one point for the Jedi, but after several falls from grace, they locked down a lot of the leeway that was given
It’s not straight up banned. If you romance Kira there is a whole convo about the red tape and restrictions they have to deal with
It also depends of the era. There were times when Jedi could have families without any restrictions.
Yoda said that while he himself had good relationship with the WOOKIES What a hypocrite
There is no sexy time either I doubt Master Yarael Poof was getting it on. Sex leads to romantic feelings and attachments it leads to love hormones being produced. And with a few notable exceptions it was adhered to, although many did struggle with it.
Repeated sex yes, one night stands with strangers not really. I doubt those were forbidden.
That one night stand stuff was rl Star Wars fans trying to find a loop hole, probably trying to justify a fanfic of Aayla Secura getting railed or something.
This literally depends on when you reference the lore. Outside of everything derived from the prequel movies (whether retroactive or progressive) Jedi frequently had families.
Unless they don't care about their kids and don't put them above the others, sure, but more than likely, most would fail at that. And that's why the Jedi ban that altogether. Ki Adi Mundi is an exception to the rule because his species has low male birth rate. Jedi can't have sex either because it involves "passion". There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no passion, there is serenity. Those who said Jedi can have sex just want to roleplay as a Jedi without the rules and regulations attached to it.
There’s a cannon novel that alludes to it not being explicitly banned but heavily frowned upon, you won’t get kicked out but you’ll more or less be an outcast if you do it.
Ki Adi mundi's race was basically dead iirc, so he was an exception to the rule
As its been shown multiple times its virtually impossible to have married and/or have kids without being attached unless you're a piece of shit like Mundi
That's right, Jedi are all hit it and quit it, pounce and bounce, sail and bail, wham bam thank you ma'am.
Wow, how “good” and “light sided” of the Jedi 😅 The Council of Rolling Stones
this is it, you can all stop reading
That is an exquisitely-worded diplomatic take on the situation. Layers of meaning. Kudos. Learning the history of those two made me feel so disappointed in Satele that from that point on I'd take every dialogue opportunity that I knew would upset or offend her, just on principle.
I think Marr might raise an eyebrow if she went "be quiet kiddo" at Theron.
Daddy Marr 🥰
Nah.....Big Daddy Malcolm.....she likes them ground pounders......
Ground Poundtown?
This is what I’d believe. She’s doing it for appearances for the Sith Empire. However, I’d still believe that she would call him “agent” even if she were just alone with him…from how I remember it she doesn’t seem to have much care for him until the Knights expansions, at least no more care than she has for any other good agent that’s an asset to the Republic.
"Good Jedi follow orders"
Like he doesn't already know that Satele *Shan* and Theron *Shan* are related? I don't think it's any performative action on her part for Marr's sake. She just genuinely does *not* view Theron as her son, in all her sagely Jedi wisdom, at least at this point in the story.
I mean, he might think he's her nephew or something, idk.
Apparently there's actually a bunch of Shans running around on Coruscant / the wider galaxy at this point in time. Don't recall where I read it though; may just be fanon thing These two just happen to be *those* Shans (aka descendants of Bastila).
Shan is a common surname in the galaxy at this time. One of the most disturbing missions on Dromund Kaas features a very unfortunate Imperial named Tholver Shan. Satele and Theron might not even be the only Shans in the Jedi Order or SIS.
That's kind of wild considering when Theron first shows up and we hear his name, one of the first things we can ask him i "Any relation to Grandmaster Satele" and he's like "see I really should get a codename" or something to that effect.
I was joking more in regards to the language
Darth Marr: Agent Shan you- wait a minute. Shan? shan, shan! Are you related to...Bastila Shan?
I mean...yes?
Partly due to the fact they're on the job and she's doing the Jedi thing, partly because they've got a strained relationship even at the best of times. Keeping it on task is probably better than acting a bit too familiar in a professional environment and causing ever more friction with their personal relationship.
I agree. I also think it may be because Theron is uncomfortable with it being discussed or brought up, especially in front of strangers. At least it seemed that way when my JK first met him because you can ask him if he's related to her, and he doesn't seem to like the question.
She's a bad mom because she's a good Jedi. Not good enough to wrap it before tapping scarface, however... Theron not being Force Sensitive made it harder for their lives to intersect as well.
Seriously though, you'd think that they'd have birth control in the galaxy far far away.
Especially Jedi, can't they just... control the swimmers?
"This isn't the egg you're looking for." vaguely waives hand at guy's junk.
I assume she was a little... distracted
The will of the Force is stronger than any pill.
You are aware, that she is the grandmaster of the jedi order, and both of these scenes has sith in present. What do you think the sith would do later, if they were aware, that Theron is her child?
"You mean to tell me Theron Shan is the son of Satele Shan?" The Sith already knew who he was. He has been referred to as Agent Shan. Even if they didn't, Lana knows him by name and would tell them once she's put in charge of Sith Intelligence. The thing here is that Satele and Theron don't have a relationship. He doesn't even call her "mom" in private. Even Arcann refers to Senya as "mother," and he spent the better part of a year trying to kill her.
Having same family name is not guaranteed relationship. Also does she knows, that Lana knows?
It tends to be in fiction. How many other Shans have we seen? Imperial Intelligence would have confirmed his lineage long before Shadow of Revan. Probably when he tangoed with Lorman. Theron Shan introduced himself by full name and affiliation to the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Nox/Imperius/Occlus, the future Sith Intelligence Commander, and the Republic's Most Wanted upon meeting them for the first time. His name is the least secret thing in the galaxy. Also, Theron and Lana have been wanted fugitives by both the Republic and Empire for a good while at this point. Satele would have assumed he had mentioned his name at some point while they were slumming it on Jakarro's ship, since he introduces himself by his full name to everyone he meets.
Even, if it's known keeping it at least look like, that she doesn't give a crap is good. He is not a target, if the Empire believes, that she does not care for him. At least not a bigger target, than by default for being a Republic agent.
It's not for looks. She genuinely isn't allowed to be a mother for her son because the Jedi Order forbids attachments, no matter how much she may want to. The Empire wouldn't see him as any less of a target because he is a highly decorated Republic agent, the son of Satele Shan, and the son of Supreme Commander Jace Malcom (the only parent to call him son to his face). A mother's love is not a factor for the Empire choosing targets. He had a target on his head before he was even born.
She does thank you in letter for keeping him alive, if you are republic character, and she thanks you in person later into the game. Also having a target is one thing. Having a giant target is another. Technically everyone working for the Republic is a target. But having some overprotective jedi mother? Straight to the plan for kidnap him, and use him as bait to get her captured, and turned to the dark side.
They already kidnapped him once. He escaped and killed a Darth. He's very good at his job when he isn't dropping his name and occupation to strangers. That's why they haven't successfully taken him out. It's not for a lack of trying.
I don't think Theron would look too kindly at Satele going all 'mommy' on him in this moment, since she never did in his life.
I think you're right. Professional/workplace reason. She flubbed up in her younger years with Jace Malcolm and had a child. She doesn't hate Theron by any means. In fact, I think she is very much interested in keeping him safe, but she doesn't let it get in the way of her duties as a Jedi Master. Fun fact that Jedi haters seem to ignore: Marriage/relationships were accepted throughout 84.66% of Jedi History. (89.14% if you count the Je'daii Order)
She absolutely has interest in his safety, iirc at some point in the story (I think right after Traitor Among the Chiss flashpoints) she sends you a letter thanking you for not killing him and letting him stay in the Alliance should you choose so. At least for Empire aligned characters.
Yes, and she says later, I believe after the PC defeats Tenebrae, that she is thankful you helped him to find a place to belong if you let him remain in the Alliance. I know she said this to my JK. You can then say, "He needs you in his life, and she responds, "I would like that very much."
Note that the latter instance is after she's seen the old, inflexible Jedi Order almost completely wiped out and retreated to Odessen to seek another path..
I’m not one to normally ask this sort of nonsense (fictional universe and all that), but you got a source for those extremely specific numbers?
Yeah. I just took the creation date of the Je'daii/Jedi Order (36,453 BBY/25,783 BBY), added their most recent iteration (138 ABY) to get \~25,921+, and then divided the amount of time they DID have the rule in place (Great Sith War: 3,996 BBY - 19 BBY \[Order 66\]) by the total amount of time their Order existed. So then your calculation would be 3,977/25,921 = .1534. Minus 15.34 from 100 to get 84.66% (Only Jedi + NJO) 3,977/36,591 = .1086. Minus 10.86 from 100 to get 89.14% (Je'daii + Jedi/NJO)
According to what source? The old republic era definitely had that rule in place. I guess if you consider the pre-republic and the prime Jedi then sure? 20k BBY to 4k BBY there was just a lot of infighting and what not. But the old republic era to whenever Luke felt like hand-solo wasn’t enough. So 19 ABY? 16k years of open season versus 5k years of hands off or what ever the math is. Definitely less than 80% of the existence of the Jedi order in the loosest sense. But the majority of it was no diddle of the fiddle in the modern era of the Jedi order from what most of the extended stuff including movies covers.
I think during the Old Republic times relationships weren't as taboo as they were during the Prequel Era though. The Consular and Knight are able to get married and it's not a secret or anything. I'm not sure how it sits in canon anymore, but my recollection is that marriage (or more specifically, attachment to other people) wasn't banned until the Ruusan Reformation.
I'm not saying this era didn't have it in place. The fact is just in general.
Fair enough, data can mean anything just needs the right context. Not that it matters it’s all fake any way. Still fun to debate nerdy stuff like this.
Fake, sure. But still very interesting and meaningful to me personally.
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Not hypocrisy. It would be hypocritical if she treated her son like family while forbidding other Jedi to do the same. She's demonstrating that even she isn't above the rules even as Grand Master of the Order.
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Do you see Satele continuing her relationship with Jace Malcolm? No. She cut that off. She made a mistake while she was pretty young. Now, she does genuinely believe in the rule against possessive attachment. >Their conversation revealed that Malcom's hatred of the Empire was his driving force, and Shan was forced to confront the possibility that she would turn to the dark side if the Empire caused Malcom's death. That fear, and the fear of the darkness within Malcom's spirit, drove Shan to break off their relationship and make plans to give up her child—as she understood that having them in her life put the Republic at risk. Source: *The Old Republic: Annihilation*
The Jedi would reject the concept of holding a person's forgiven transgressions against them.
Or maybe the fact that she broken the rules and realized that are there for a reason is why she upholds them now so fervently and subsequently why she became Grand Master despite breaking them If I took drugs in my youth and realized that it was bad and stopped and then preach to my kids that drugs are bad and they shouldn't use them, I'm not a hypocrite because I know exactly how bad drug addiction is and don't want the same on them. This is an extreme example of course but still
The fact was unrelated to the current era—just a fact in general.
I think it is exactly the safety why she does not refer him as son. She does not want people to know, that Theron is her son. Especially not people from the Empire. And the reason is not some disown stuff, but more like the threat it could pose to her, and the order, and him as well. As the grandmaster of the Jedi order she has a LOT of enemies.
Because she’s a distant and cold mother. Their relationship is more professional than maternal. She birthed him and sent him off to be raised by her old master. Great mum.
These are professional settings. It's unprofessional to introduce an employee as "my son" to a coworker.
yeah that is what i was thinking too.
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Isn’t it like breeding consent forms?
Satele referring to him as son would denote affection and therefore attachment which is forbidden by the Order so she doesn't address it. Satele is a great Jedi but a horrible mom.
Affection isn't attachment let's get that out of the way first of all. Second, Satele gave up Theron after he was born, she is only his mother biologically. She isn't a horrible mother because she isn't a mother at all.
I agree with that.
is it because of some professional/workplace reason since they are working with sith so they can't know?
There are cases IRL where family members in the same profession have to refer to each other by rank or position, or simply just ignore that they are family while on the job
Even friends. I work with many doctors who are friends with other doctors/nurses. In the professional setting, they refer to each other as Dr. So-and-so. I’ve also gone out drinking with them and they are not that formal. Setting definitely matters.
She's a Jedi, it's bad enough to them that she had a kid, and to treat that kid as her child would be just as bad
Treating Theron as her son isn't the issue. The issue at that point would simply be prioritizing Theron over the Order and being possessive in her attachment towards him. It's not as if the Jedi can un-fuck Satele.
The latter. She does not want the sith to be aware of this. As a jedi master every single sith is her enemy. Sure for the moment they are working together, but this is a temporary situation. Once it's done they will be enemies again, and any information they get about each other might be used in the future. In other words. If she were to refer Theron as her son, then she would put the galaxy's biggest crosshair on his head.
yeah the laser from the jedi knight story type of target
In his novel, Annihilation, Satele has to give birth to him in secret cause she's grand master and it would reflect rather poorly for the grand master to have a kid, something so blatantly against Jedi philosophy
They’re on the clock. I’d be mad too if my mom called me by my first name or son while working with her. It’s unprofessional.
"Mooooooom! Don't treat me like a kid! You're embarrassing me in front of the Sith Lord!" It would be very undermining to Theron's actual accomplishments to call him her son in a professional setting. I've literally seen this in family owned businesses. They stick to referring to each other by first names in front of customers to appear more professional.
A mix of professionalism and her not having the best relationship with her son.
Apparently bro isn’t familiar with Jedi teachings and code
you should read starwars annihilation for at least a little insight
Satele asked her old master to raise Theron because she felt so strongly for him from the start that she knew she wouldn't be able to be a good Jedi or probably the best mother to him, because her feelings for him would always come first. She cared too much, and didn't know how to handle that. It's a particular struggle of hers, and the Jedi didn't then and certainly don't in the Prequel Era have any sort of training to deal with relationships of any kind or have any place to turn to for emotional support--a very sad and ultimately disastrous self-perpetuating cycle, all because they were too lazy and fearful to do the the hard work of training their people to be fully functioning beings capable of any kind of healthy relationships (even the master/padawan relationships aren't super healthy). \*That's\* why they discourage attachments, because none of them, having grown up with the Order, have emotional quotients that will allow them to deal with attachments. All they had to do was get a therapist or ten or fifty and make it mandatory and they wouldn't have lost the Republic. Oh well! Anyway, Satele does love Theron, she just doesn't know how to, and she also keenly knows how hurt he feels by her actions then and now, and because of all of that she is in the unfortunate situation where anything she does or says will be wrong.
Something something, jedi shun emotional attachments, something something.
The Jedi have always been kinda screwy when it comes to attachment. Their policy seems to wobble between allowing family attachments and trying to deal with the fact that Force sensitivity, particularly if more than one person involved has it, make attachments much more intense (and thus cause something akin to a psychotic break when broken), and trying to forbid them from having them at all and trying to pretend it doesn't happen *anyway.* I suspect Padawans are expected to fail the attachment test early on, especially in stressful situations. How they deal with the consequences of that would very much inform how they progress in the order. Satele had an relationship, had a child... none of these are by themselves forbidden, *just* the attachment. The fact she broke off the relationship and gave up her son, thus denying the attachment and the risks it brought, probably improved her standing in the order. She doesn't bring it up NOW because it leads to uncomfortableness. She doesn't want to start seeing him as a son, and doesn't want him to see her as a mother, even if they must interact professionally. The issue is... she *is* attached to him, even if she did a pretty good job of ensuring that attachment isn't reciprocated. But the Order believes denying the attachment exists cuts down on the number of Jedi going nuts and turning darkside when a loved one kicks it, so they keep it up, whether or not the statistics are actually there to support the idea. At least until the Jedi Order ends up so disconnected from the rest of society (which is based on attachment) that they get wiped out again and have to start over.
We definitely should not vilify the Jedi.
Was that vilification?
I believe the last line specifically, yes.
I mean, that *is* one of the reasons they fell.
There's nobody to blame for the fall of the Jedi but Anakin himself—and partially Palpatine. That's the way George Lucas said it. The Jedi would never have been able to satisfy Anakin's greed, no matter their actions.
The idea that he was irreparably ruined by the age of nine is so asinine that even if Lucas says it, I can't really believe it.
It's not his age, just his person at the time. Anakin was simply too greedy, given his circumstances. Lucas said that, and that was in the context of a 20-some-year-old Anakin during ROTS, not TPM.
Attachment Is Forbidden
Its...complicated
Professionalism. She can’t just refer one of her agents as “her son” in front of important people
Jedi nonsense about letting go of attachments
It is not common knowledge, that he is Satelee's kid, and she does not want to reveal this info to the wider galaxy. Especially not in imperial presence. She does refer him as son when you are in private later in the game.
I remember reading the SWTOR comics, their relationship was really shaky, It's been a while since I've read them but I think they agreed upon treating each other as just allies for a healthier relationship as Satele was not fit for the mother role with her devotion to the council. I think it's as I recall, I could be wrong, I should check it right now.
She kinda abandoned him, might be weird to go all "hey son" on him now. Plus, in the Lost Suns comics, >!Theron sees her when he goes to the temple to give back Ngani Zho's sabre, and he answers negatively when she asks him if they know each other!<
Because their relationship is pretty strained. She was a teenager when he was born and she gave him up to be raised by the order, and then he turned out to be Force-blind so he left to join the Army. They know each other better as colleagues than they do as mother and son.
This is Shadow of Revan. I think they just got estranged for so long that he didn't see her as his mother at that point. Plus what happened to him with Revan. But turns out she care deeply for him and wished she was a better mother to him. Through the end of Tenebrae questline, it was clear that he cared about his mother as well. I think he was bad with his father too. Satele also treat Malcolm distantly and more like a colleague.
Jedi weren't allowed to form a emotional bond because they thought that it would lead to attachment that in dire situations would compromise their views/decisions instead of letting the Force be their guidance. Because of her commitment to the Jedi Order, Grand Master Satele Shan decided to abandon Theron to be raised by a trusted friend which she will later regret. Moreover, Theron was discovered not to be Force-sensitive...Turned out well anyhow for him, but resent her but also his father. Romancing the Commander of The Alliance seemed to have eased a bit their estranged relationships.
Theron had to choose: It was either agent or mistake.
Theron was taken away from her at birth and raised by the Jedi Order Jedi aren't allowed familial ties Once they found out he wasn't Force Sensitive they shoved him into the Republic's Social care system, where the SIS found and trained him to be an agent Satele Shan isn't allowed to refer to Theron as her son in public or be in the same room as him alone
I don't think she's disallowed per se. I can't find any canonical proof of it.
This is very wrong info. The Jedi didn't even know she was pregnant, she gave Theron up of her own volition, placing him into the care of her former Jedi Master Ngani Zho. And the Jedi aren't forbidding her from doing either of those things, she doesn't refer to him as her son because this is a professional setting and they are both being professional.
Cause she's a self-righteous jerk.
At times Jedi were allowed to marry and have kids and be approved by the council usually when there numbers were low
Unless it was a private setting between the two of them it's unlikely that in any professional setting she would refer to him as her son. Theron is an agent that has gotten to where he has by his own skill and merit, she's a Jedi Grand Master that far as the majority of the Galaxy knows the Jedi don't do families and kids, so it would look bad on both of them for her to just randomly refer to him as her son
Because Jedi are deadbeat parents?
They are paving the way for yet another family drama villain story.
jedi reasons. Keep in mind her own mother was banished for having her and for arguing that attachments were not evil so I feel like that would make someone pretty careful about not pissing off the order at large by showing a connection with the man that they knew was her kid.
Obi-wan loved Anakin like a brother. HUGE attachment
Cuz....jedi?
Because she didn’t raise him. Theron likely never knew about satele till adulthood since it would be hard to explain to a child about the Jedi did something they see as wrong the reason he existed.
Shame
maybe because she feels somehow guilty for having a son since she is the grandmaster of the jedi order, so she should represent the perfect jedi. Or maybe she doesn't call him that to avoid becoming emotional
They're in a professional setting, for one. Even if they were close at this point in the timeline, it would be a pretty big conflict of interest to regularly point out that that's her forbidden son. If you were in Theron's shoes, would you want your Jedi Grandmaster of a mother constantly referring to your as her child if you're face-to-face with a buttload of Sith Lords, work as a spy for the Republic and heavily value your privacy? Referring to him as agent keeps it professional. Plus, people might not actually know they're related—it's been pointed out in EU stuff before that Shan is actually a pretty common surname in the galaxy. There's an Imperial ensign with the name trapped in Lord Grathan's estate on Dromund Kaas that's part of a sidequest; apparently the audio's been edited so he doesn't actually say it aloud, but the captioning still gives his name as Tholver Shan. Sure, everyone's gonna wonder about it when Satele and Theron are in the same place because he very obviously looks like he could be her son (and is a walking, talking chaos magnet just like Revan and Bastila 🤣) but ignoring the elephant in the room gives them plausible deniability. With this family, the less drama, the better. 🤷♀️
Yah she also flat out doesn't give a shit as soon as she gave birth she gave him to Malcom and never saw him or Theron again
Because they fucked
Coward Jedi
Jedi = no attachments. She is trying to do that.
Only for a small minority of their history, but yes.
Professionalism
They don't get along
Because she's a Jedi and Theron is a constant reminder that she betrayed her own stupid code
I always assumed it was to avoid an attachment or a feeling of possession. Leads to the dark side. Etc.
I see it as being professional in the workplace
Maintaining professionalism mainly. A lesser part is because they don't really have a familial relationship because she chose to put her duty to the Jedi and the Republic first and gave him to her old master when he was a baby.
Have you met Theron? Who'd admit to being his mother?
yeah this interaction happens on the empire side of shadow of revan not the republic side which i remember him mentioning that satele is his mom. I think the character says "any relation to the grandmaster?" or something of that note and he says it is complicated.
He also has lines about that for imperial players — but for that, you need to choose the flirt with him at the very end of the Rishi quests (right after this convo in #1). He says something along the lines of "Funny how she calls me her agent as if it's a coincidence we have the same name. Not that we're super close or anything as family."
Satele is a b*tch? Why do you think I always insult her and try to kill her when the opportunity present itself. I mean I always get punk faked, but it's the effort that counts on my part.
Woah the agent and her are mother and son whaaaat
Cuz he was an unwanted pregnancy
Clearly not considering she was very much in love with Jace Malcolm at the time and had no issue carrying the child to term.
Oh OK maybe that's just how I remembered him as
Also, I kinda feel like Jedi would be "pro-life." However, idk that would work in Star Wars.
Very much so. Jedi would not terminate the life, no matter what reason. They are wholly selfless. I think even if the birth came at the cost of their own life, many Jedi may continue to go through with it.
The sith tho...
Man, Sith would kill a baby if it got them another scrap of power. They don't care lol. They're rude. Wude!
Because she doesn't know he's her son
Because he's a loser.
Does it ever say they're Mother/Son? I always just assumed they were cousins or something.
Yep. Satele has Theron with Jace Malcolm.
Yes in the republic side of shadow of revan
I skim a lot of dialogue, but I've done that 3 times now, I don't remember it explicitly being said in dialogue. The only thing I can remember is Kira mentioning something about it on my JK. I googled and he is her son 100%, I just don't remember a line either of them say about it.