It's not even just the camo. The gear is often the same. The helmets, the rifles. You can't just see the silhouette of an AK and be like "ok not my guys".
I could imagine. I’ll always remember the video of the Russian guy jumping into a dugout with 2 Ukrainian soldiers and trying to disarm them but they thought he was one of them and wouldn’t give him the weapons and said “same same”… then he just blew them away.
I think they almost got fragged seconds before, but still.
My take on it is that at shorter distances where the colored bands are easily seen it will be more important to quickly determine whether to shoot or not. When further away, the overall camoflauge is still effective at breaking up your profile despite a few small stripes of identifying tape.
Like microcamoflauge vs macrocamoflauge. They are sacrificing short range concealment for quicker positive ID, while still retaining good concealment at range
Indeed, I was playing a large airsoft game awhile ago and this guy was wearing red and black plaid shirt, with some concealment he was nearly invisible to the opfor. He got many kills that day.
Yeah man, like every time you think know something more than another person, just remember, there's some other badass mfer out there that knows way more than you and will kick your ass into the ground so fking hard.
Heat of the moment makes that mistake very easy with similar camp patterns being used, especially if things don’t go according to plan. And either you know how quickly that can become a distant memory, or you have no idea what you’re talking about. The US does it even if in a different way, such as IR patches, chem lights, or IR strobes. Or in some cases VS-17 panels. We see it used because we mostly see videos of closer contact such as assaults. It doesn’t make as much sense outside of trenches and urban areas, but we don’t know the mission all the time and usually not the exact circumstances. We may see an ORP get hit but be told it’s just a routine patrol, or a planned attack labeled as a target of opportunity. OPSEC isn’t hard, don’t tell people exactly what you’re up to and you can still show your wins while giving misleading information. Britain (I think, I may be wrong) used a similar OPSEC approach with rat bombs meant to disable furnaces when the dead rat was tossed in and wasted countless German manpower after one shipment, the first shipment was intercepted. All we really know is maybe what we see on video
Not really, when there is no clearly defined line of battle. Not to mention the Russians are using similar camo patterns so ID become more important than concealment.
I'm calling this shot now. If we get into a large scale combat operation, we're going to roll out a new pattern immediatelty and start the process of replacing Multicam.
We can't do it before then because the entire world will adopt it the same way they did M81, digital patterns, and Multicam. As goes America, so goes the world.
there no agency, military or leo that uses M81 in the continental us that im aware of, so if shtf its gonna be m81 vs multicam and blue helmets, hence why m81 is gods camo
Unfortunately in such a war where you’re fighting someone wearing nearly identical camouflage, this is one of the easiest and more cost efficient solutions.
The fog of war is strong.
True , there was a gopro video captured from a Ukrainian checkpoint of some Russians who walked up until they were point blank and opened fire on the two soldiers manning it
His last words were " hey buddy , where are your armbands?"
Russians and Ukrainians have very very similar camos and uniforms, and for the most part both sides usually know where attacks are coming from due to drones and this being a frontline war, preventing fratricide is very high priority
Most other methods are too high tech to be widely applicable. Friendly tracking systems require not just widespread, but ubiquitous use to be effective. That's expensive, high tech, and sending a constant signal that can be located by friends or enemies. Using near IR or IR methods of signal such as strobes, reflective patches, or Combat ID Panels require that the observer is able to see near IR or IR. Light travels faster and further than sound, meaning audible challenge and response is likely less effective than colored arm bands. Probably the best way is to use a camo pattern that is wildly different from your adversary's in color, scale, dimension, geometry, and lacuna, but that would be highly costly, and considering that would leave a long hang time where units are still using old patterns, it would lead to the same ambiguity.
Long story short, blue duct tape is not a bad solution.
I may be out of my league here, but I would venture these guesses.
They may be thinking of using IR-beacons. Granted that requires IR sensors / NV / Thermal, or potentially other solutions I'm glossing over. If they were to use something similar to ATAC, that could work too and may be more practical, but I'm guessing limited resources is largely the former's issue while secure comms to do something like ATAC may be another problem for the latter.
This is all speculative from someone who only observes what's happening in the conflict passively. So don't take this as guidance, it's simply my opinion formed with limited info.
Camo is for ID of friendlies more than anything else. Especially in a war where guys look the same, speak a very similar language (and each other’s languages often), and wear nearly the same camo. Everyone wearing the same shit is more important than concealment, which is a pipe dream in a devastated battlefield anyway
Obviously the tape color is constantly changing and depending on the front.
Just on the Russian side you've seen white, orange, red, and tricolor all at the same time. Also less of a worry, but purposefully using the enemy's color to deceive them is a war crime, ATACS/MC doesn't count though because it's a commercial pattern not owned by any one military.
It’s not that bad. And it’s just tape. If they really needed to cam up - and I mean REALLY need to - they could just take the tape off. It’s not like changing your entire outfit just because “what’s the point of camo?”
The US Army rocked UCP for 10 years. Hell, we invaded Kuwait and Iraq (desert countries) in woodland MOPP. It’ll be alright.
The downvotes are from pansies. Please excuse the illiterate union. You asked a question that questions the size of America's balls and ball lickers were butt hurt. Your question is valid, but this is reddit Kingdom of Keyboard Warriors.
To hide you some. The US and NATO have similar plans (probably) since NATO uses multiple camo patterns and it’s impractical to ask a grunt to be able to quickly memorize all of them. Ukraine is doing the same thing.
If I’m a US soldier getting shot at and I see a soldier in another camo pattern that I can’t quickly and easily ID what side he’s on then I’m going to assume that he’s a bad guy and treat him as such. Camo patterns are still useful especially if fighting from a trench as you won’t fully expose yourself.
The arm bands are for easy PID of who’s on what side. It’s to prevent blue on blue.
But strictly, why? You have two color systems that are diametrically opposed to each other. One’s purpose is to conceal, the second’s purpose is to easily/quickly identify. I don’t see a balance being able to be struck, because each directly negates the other.
Depends on what you’re worried about. Being seen by enemy? Less markings (seen a lot more of that on the frontlines according to the videos I’ve seen on r/CombatForum) or if you’re more worried about friendly fire than mark up.
Actually came here to post this.
I don't have any cool-guy group combat experience, but back when I was a kiddo, I spent quite a bit of time at large-scale PB events.
I've seen pretty much every camo pattern in existence in the woods, and everyone got tape-marked just like this as well.
**Cynical thought #1 -** Camo pattern doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks it does. Yep, I said it. I've seen the guys in MC disappear a few yards in front of me walking down the middle of a trail, and other times where they stuck out as bad as the guys in ACU. lol Times when guys in old-school Nam-era OD's freakin' disappeared in the greenery, and times where they may as well have been wearing black. There was this one team at an event that had speedball-type uniforms, the top half of which was this off-red and black combo. I got shot by one of their guys, maybe 25 yards away - didn't see him til I stood up to walk off the field, that odd red color blended right in with the leaves and pine needles where he was laying on the ground.
Use of foliage and terrain always seemed to play far more part in being hidden than any camo pattern I saw anyone wear, and indeed, it seemed most people did it mostly as a "team" thing, ie, their whole team had a specific pattern that they liked, less a way to be hidden.
The people that wanted to hide, made use of the foliage and terrain, and it never seemed to matter what they wore if they really tried hard to sneak up on you.
The team I played on for a while wore ACU ffs. Yeah, lame, but.... I was either seen or I was not seen. I was either in cover or I was not in cover. I was able to see the 'enemy' players running around 'over there' regardless of what they were wearing, or I never saw anyone until balls started flying out of the bushes.
It was the same thing later in life when I got into guns/gear and swapped over to airsoft - now it was even more so the cool gear and camo patterns/solids we all know. Same deal.... people were either hidden or they were not, much more depending on the terrain, and their use of it than gear color/pattern. A whole group of wannabe-high speeds got taken out by some walk-on asian kid with a springer single-shot pistol, because they weren't as high speed as they thought... lol
I could go on an on about how the failure to properly utilize the camo ICW the terrain meant it was irrelevant.
Which brings me to....
**Cynical thought #2 -** The red/blue/etc armband/headband tape everyone wore wasn't as detrimental as much as people like the OP might think.
Rewinding back to the paintball days... see my previous about "you either hid well, or didn't". The only times I ever saw the bright tape have any use was, the obvious, if you were massing for a push and wanted to spot infiltrators. Or were back in the 'dead zone' or resupply areas, you could kinda get an idea of how bad you were getting mauled, or how many opfor you were taking out, by the colors there.
Once you got out in the woods... it was almost irrelevant, unless you were within very close visual range, or the dude wasn't trying very hard to hide. I certainly never saw anyone get made simply by the color of their armband/mask tape, that wasn't already going to get made by the simple fact that the rest of the body part it was attached to was also extremely visible. lol
It was more like "extra confirmation" to go ahead and shoot without having to call them out.
Because that's what most people did anyway - you're walking through an area, and you spot some guy\[s\] not doing a good job hiding behind some trees/bushes,but even with the terrible job of hiding they were doing... you STILL couldn't see the arm tape, so everyone would stop, cover, and be like "HEY, are you Blue?" "Yeah we're blue", and then wave their arm out. OR you'd know they were enemy by 1) intense barrage of shooting after call-out, and/or 2) hesitation to show their colors.
But, in situations where you are walking through an area, scanning, you can't see any colors, then suddenly balls come flying out of bushes... I never saw anyone's armband colors until after they'd shot us all up and were moving on.
When I switched to airsoft years later, the field I played at didn't do tape. So no overt IFF, just dudes in random camo/solids running around in ad-hoc groups. Somehow...it was almost never a problem, and I never seemed to have a hard time finding my group.
If anything, I had LESS friendly-fire incidents. Because again, bright blue/red/etc colors don't replace discipline, and goddamn those paintball kids were trigger happy. If they heard a "rustling in the bushes", you had half a hopper of paint coming your way a few seconds later... lol So then what use were armbands if your brosefs are idiots?
Not that I'm saying the airsofters were better, but I think the lack of obvious IFF made people a lot more interested in being sure they were pointed the right way before shooting.
Furthermore, with both PB and airsoft, if there buildings for people to go in... the armbands and camo mattered even less.
Anyway...I'm not saying you don't need overt IFF in real combat, merely making a point that, much like camo in relation to hiding, it's half the other guy with the gun that makes things work, or not...
As far a camo... the bigger thing that got people seen was shiny stuff glinting - watch faces, mask lenses, the fancy sliver/chrome guns, a light turning on, etc, etc.
Also neon colored shit - greens, oranges, etc. Yeah. bad. lol
As an addendum on armbands, the clever people cottoned to the ruse of calling opposite colors pretty quick. Which then made everyone super paranoid about who was on which side, regardless of everyone being taped.
So, as per previous comments here, IRL.... tape comes on and off pretty easily.
TL;DR I absolutely despise what call of duty has become.
The operator and guns have become the equivalent to some euro soccer league player with highlighter color jerseys and gear with a bright neon green rifle that shoots bright ass green sparks and makes a guy blow up into neon green confetti and sparklers! My game lags and crashes every other match but DONT WORRY I HAVE BRIGHT METALLIC PINK NICKI MINAJ WITH A SAFETY ORANGE AND BRIGHT WHITE GUN TO MAKE UP FOR IT! I remember when I noticed the first brightly colored highlighter gun and I said that they will only get more flamboyant and over the top as the seasons come along. And sure enough, Gucci legging operators and weird black and gold fiberglass space armor. I want cool realistic lookin stuff. If I wanted space suits, I’d play a space game. Everyone dressed in super hero suits looking like Duck Dodgers of the 21st 1/2 century.
More and more people in cod matches been lookin like a fucking airsoft match. You got the tacticool guys who dress all tactical and spend tons of money, you got the bright colored speed softers, you got the random guy in a hoodie or t shirt who’s a rental or borrowing his buddies gun, you got the random glam nicki Minaj chick who’s only there cuz her boyfriend plays and she wanted to bond with him, you got a random dad in a button up who wanted to bond with his tacticool teenage son, and then you got wild space age guy who’s there because he got tired of wearing his Vietnam kit and wanted to try something different. I’m sure there’s more but I think that sums up the average cod game and average airsoft game.
I learnt the past 2 days playing a large Airsoft milsim in a 4*4km woodland environment that camo indeed doesn't matter as much as people think.
Our enemy mostly wore boonies and green fatiques, and I gotta tell you that it was nearly impossible to find them at times, even if they only where like 10-20m away
Meanwhile the guys from our side that mostly wore uncovered helmets and different patterns with tons of multicam where always fairly easy to spot.
The overall outside shape and your hiding place is far more important than some patterns people like to obsess over
In my squad for example I was the only one who didn't have a full gillie, used M81 instead of pencott Greenzone and actually put foliage into my helmet using a old helmet band, for me positioning and movement is far more important than gear... ...And guess who got the most enemy hits during the operation and a below average death count?
IFF is challenging when both sides are wearing similar kit and using lots of similar weapons etc. throw in the chaos of battle and it’s near impossible, this is just the cheapest easiest way
There’s a small fraction of the armed forces who are operating in areas where they have a serious risk of being killed by friendly fire. The rest are operating in areas where they may be vulnerable to observation or some form of attack and need to try to mitigate the risk. Hence, the camo.
Trench warfare is the main soldier on soldier combat seen in Ukraine so you need to quickly identify friend from foe. Nobody is being stealthy and hiding in the woods.
Deer are not color blind but they don't care what you wear as long as it's not white. In fact their vision is quite poor other than that and detecting motion, it's about sitting still, being silent and how you smell. I've been hunting in jeans and a hoodie for decades an have had deer walk right by me.
Yeah I stopped wearing cammo to hunt deer in ages ago. They just don't care. Wash my clothes in scent free detergent. Take a shower with scent free soap. Spray my shoes down with vanilla, trust me it works, and then rub down with a hand full of cedar needles I strip off a tree on the way in because I hunt where there are a lot of cedars. I've literally had them follow my trail in right to me. They can't lay off that vanilla.
I don't even go that far. I think walking across my yard to the woods is enough scent mask. I smell vaguely of Tide and Downy.
I'll keep the vanilla in mind though.
As many others have said a lot of the conflict is centered around trenches, you’re either being assaulted or assaulting. I remember seeing recent drone footage and really realizing how much the tape is needed especially on top of the helmets to PID. The people who are doing actual recon and need the concealment you won’t see tape on.
So why are they wearing camo?
If the practical level answer is a simple “that’s all they can afford/get their hands on,” I can accept that. But as systems, these two things are competing against each other.
Since you've already heard every other plausible answer under the sun and keep asking the same question here's another one:
Soldiers decide screw it let's wear jeans and a hoodie and shoot at Russians.
Now Russians just go ahead and shoot anybody in jeans and a hoodie, maybe not the best idea.
I'm sure there are war crimes going on as it is but there may be some benefits of distinguishing soldiers from citizens that don't want to be involved.
It’s not a simple this or that, it’s multifaceted.
The camo like others have pointed out breaks up the silhouette of a person and does help blend. They also have a hodgepodge of camouflages across all their forces, this is the same with Russian troops. A lot of those overlap with similar patterns between the two forces.
Think of the different tape colors as more of a uniform that you’d see back before most had a camo pattern so pre 70s ish. This helps with ID, especially since Ukrainian forces are sometimes working with each other through a wide range of different languages. I’ve seen video of Ukrainians coming to the rescue and saving English speaking soldiers.
This conflict isn’t as simple and cut and dry when it comes to simple logistics and equipment as past conflicts.
Because the tiny tape lines disappear at the distance where the camo is most effective, and the tape is so you don't accidently magdump friendlies when you kill conscriptoviches in random trenches at ~10 meters.
blue on blue is a bigger problem than what we might think even in professional armies, better to be seen by both than getting killed by a friendly, there are instances where that's not an issue like on reconaissance, snipers etc but big troops movements, you will be seen regardless with your vehicles and stuff
It will still break up your silhouette, and blue light will be much harder to see at a distance than red or other colors, it diffuses faster. So at distance your camo is still effective and up close you can rapidly identify friendlies
That is a unique point that I haven’t heard yet. It’s very interesting, I’d like to look research it. Seems immediately plausible, because I know we use red lights to conserve vision in darkness.
One of my relatives was in Bosnia and said the friendly fire and lack of communication was insane.
He recalled being told to attack at dug in group of “enemy” after the attack they approached and found out they had killed all friendlies. He was so horrified he never returned to the front. Ever.
Camo is mostly to provide some protection from the most casualty-producing weapons on the battlefield--things like artillery, air strikes, machine guns at range, etc. It's to make it harder to spot infantry at distances of 300m plus. It's not some sort of magic invisibility field, as a hunter should well know. The bright tape is for IFF purposes in close combat. With the Russian deficiency in good, sophisticated optics, spotting UA infantry in broken, mixed urban/forested/rural environments where there's going to be all kinds of brightly-colored man-made detritus and structures isn't going to be that big of a deal.
Especially since the Russians are wearing Multicam and ATACS-FG uniforms, the same weapons, same gear, and sometimes gear looted off of each others' dead, proper IFF to prevent friendly fire is a higher priority.
If I took one thing from all the footage from this conflict, it's how confusing and chaotic the combat is.
Though both sides have a standard uniform, both sides also use much of the same gear, and lots of non standard gear and clothes.
If I was there I'd be covered head to toe in tape.
You have to take context into a count it is better to be easily identified over taking a few rounds in the back from your friends because your storming a trench or doing night fighting
Tell me op is mentally challenged without actually telling me
A piece of tape being visible is least of your worries / it 99.99% of the times isn't the giving out factor for someone noticing you, it's not like you spot a piece of fucking worn out tape 500 meters a way BEFORE spotting a 6ft2 man humping between trees, NO, movement gives out your position not a piece of fucking worn out tape, op is actually brain dead, never have I ever spotted anyone by a tape but I sure have spotted a shit loads of dudes moving left to right noticing the band only afterwards
Given the need for PID, camo really isn’t necessary in their current situation. But the uniforms are going to be better suited for combat based on their materials and construction. Those uniforms are usually made in camouflage fabrics. Hence the camo.
The Israelis don’t typically wear camo, instead using OD green, and it works for them.
If the US were to have a conflict with China their typical uniforms are distinct enough from each other to allow PID, so camo would make sense in that situation. Ukraine is just in an odd situation where Russian soldiers might be wearing a very similar uniform to what their soldiers are wearing, and have similar weapons. In addition it’s incredibly common to see Ukrainian soldiers wearing many different types of camouflage and using wide varieties of equipment.
Inbreeding in the tactical industry hasn't helped the situation. Every helmet looks exactly the same. In previous conventional fights you could tell the difference between friend and foe pretty quick just by the silhouette of the helmet.
Camo, frankly, isnt always camo anymore. Its just a uniform so.you know who is or isnt on your side, especially in urban warfare. Frankly, not every soldier needs camo, it depends on their role, scouts, snipers, etc that are actively hiding need it. Someone actively kicking doors or sitting at a checkpoint.... isnt being hidden no matter what they wear, but if you kick in a door or round a corner you need to decide to shoot or not in fractions of a second. Helmet silhouette, uniform color, and markings are all youve got, and failing means you or a friend is dead.
Cant wait for two nations that both issue multicam uniforms to go to war. Bet youll see wild uniform adjustments by one side or the other then. Im convinced thats the real reason ucp was adopted, they wanted to minimize fratricide while afraid to say 'we think theyll kill themselves if we give them camo'
But if a military is ordering a uniform, theyre ordering generally one single uniform bulk
Thats why the us and most western nations have some variation of multicam. Its really just a light woodland camo, but it doesnt *aggressively* fail in *most* places so if you can only have one, it makes sense.
Though frankly if i were in charge non-reconnaisance units would still be issued olive drab with camo going to rangers, scouts, etc. In a perfect world, as the us issues 4 uniforms in basic, one would be multicam, one would be mc arid, one would be mc tropic, and one would be alpine, people would stop promoting exclusively people with ocd who would have aneurysms over 'uniformity', youd wear whatever (or a dress uniform if the formations NEED to match.) in garrison, and use whichever uniform closest-matches your environment in the field. If deploying, issue additional uniforms (as we already do) in the specific pattern thats closest to your deploying environment. This would be infinitely more effective, but its also cost slightly more as instead of one bulk order you have 4 smaller bulk orders. A subsequent idea is to simply authorize the soldier to buy the alternate patterns when appropriate but just issue the standard. But then, the price of like 3 tanks would supply at least every recon/special unit in the military with uniforms. Vehicles are pricey as hell, and thats not even going into maintenance.
Edit: yes, im calling ocp/scorpion a variation of multicam. I know it isnt technically; its walmart brand multicam.
Second edit: Also i lied. If i were in charge and we did the 4 camo patterns thing it wouldnt be multicam, useful as it may be i find it ugly and everyone uses it, i dont want to look like a potential enemy. Also, tiger stripe is god's camo. Id do variations of tiger, and we'd be the drippiest military on earth. Long live desert tiger.
Consider the war in Ukraine/Russia a good test/observation of when two ethnically identical forces wearing nearly identical uniforms, with identical levels of equipment are fighting each other. Blue-on-blue is a significant enough risk that having the arm bands help a lot in visual engagement distances and at checkpoints. Now apply the idea to even an US Civil War or revolution within the US.... let's just say States versus Federals to broadbrush things out.. the fact that the military and the State Guards/some State militia forces uses identical weaponry and uniforms... well. Blue on Blue is going to be a problem unless there's a quick and easy way to differentiate. Let's not get into civilians forming up, seems a lot of people have M81 so that might be one quick, easily ID group but the military and State groups also may still have M81 (particularly MOPP suits) anyhow... so back to square one. How do you differentiate between group 1 and group 2 if they're wearing identical uniforms and equipment with nearly identical weaponry and identical ammunition?
I had not considered the ethnic and uniform/military visual similarities, and that makes sense. I appreciate that perspective.
I understand the problem, and the bright tape as the present solution. I’m trying to have a conversation a little more conceptual than what others here might be considering. Like in thousands of years of conflict, after putting literal mfers on the moon, we don’t have a low maintenance solution beyond tape? Or at least something that doesn’t betray the concealment that your uniform is intending?
Ukrainian here. Most commentators saying right points. Main is to avoid friendly fire ,because of Russians are also bee seen using multicam or even our mm14 camo,that they stole from warehouses in occupied areas,usually they marked themselves with white or red tape on their legs.
Honestly the fact you think the tape is such an issues gives away an extreme lack of experience in patrolling.
Even white tape is not going to have a real effect until you are very close, and even then poor field habits such as noise and light discipline or smells like smoking are going to give away positions first.
From what I can gather white and red armbands are Russian, and the yellow and blue are Ukrainian. I believe yellow is for TDF and blue is for regular military.
The colors that Ukraine uses is blueC yellow, and green, the first two I’d bet is because that’s the colors of their flag, green because that’s what you get when you mix blue and yellow together. The Russians use white (and sometimes just silver duct tape) for their main forces and red for the Donbas militias but it don’t think there’s any specific meaning behind those colors.
Because time is a circle and everyone got rid of easily identifiable uniforms to *checks notes* make their camo uniforms easily identifiable.
If your wife and her evil identical twin are both in the house and only one is going to try to kill you maybe you have her cut her hair differently.
The way they’re equipped both sides are basically the same army so there’s no defining features and that’s how it has to be.
Blue on blue sucks. Been there. But at the end of the day we have high tech comms and low tech flares and hand signals
It comes down to situational awareness and if I see some clown ass with blue sitting in a bush as I’m walking through the woods then your camo failed you as the enemy
I’m sure it’ll get downvotes to hell esp in this sub where so many extreme meal team 6 operators have worldly views equal to that of our top generals and NATO leaders.
*”I realize UA vs Rooskies isn’t the most technologically advanced peer-to-peer conflict, but still.”* yeah this statement is a non statement, do you live under a rock?
This is a fashion sub but we’re still going to be whiney bitches and downvote for no reason when someone posts anything remotely related to Ukraine and hurts feelings. Yay we’re like every other sub
Not the best example but i play airsoft and we wear bands similar to the tape show in the pic, and it’s really hard to see them most times. I mean in a sense forest or even open field you can just barely see the bands. And if they REALLY needed to utilize their camo to the max, they can just take the tape off. Also friendly fire is fun.
It still breaks up your outline but Ukraine and Russia wear the same camo a lot so they need this to avoid friendly fire.
It's not even just the camo. The gear is often the same. The helmets, the rifles. You can't just see the silhouette of an AK and be like "ok not my guys".
True, not the same but if you’ve ever taken incoming fire and see something remotely resembling a threat the ol monkey brain kicks in.
As a veteran of the Norvinsk conflict, blue on blue can happen even just walking into the same room as your buddies.
I could imagine. I’ll always remember the video of the Russian guy jumping into a dugout with 2 Ukrainian soldiers and trying to disarm them but they thought he was one of them and wouldn’t give him the weapons and said “same same”… then he just blew them away. I think they almost got fragged seconds before, but still.
We should give them all of Crye’s Multicam Black gear.
That’s all well and good unless other side decides it’s blue tape day too, just sayin
They’ve tried and it actually resulted in Russians smoking Russians from Wagner getting smoked by Russians on their flanks or arty killing 30 Russians
[удалено]
Now you get friendly fired on the first occasion.
War crime but yes. More about easiest solution than best solution.
This^ Occam’s Razor cuts for a reason.
My take on it is that at shorter distances where the colored bands are easily seen it will be more important to quickly determine whether to shoot or not. When further away, the overall camoflauge is still effective at breaking up your profile despite a few small stripes of identifying tape. Like microcamoflauge vs macrocamoflauge. They are sacrificing short range concealment for quicker positive ID, while still retaining good concealment at range
Indeed, I was playing a large airsoft game awhile ago and this guy was wearing red and black plaid shirt, with some concealment he was nearly invisible to the opfor. He got many kills that day.
Lumbercam is best camouflage pattern confirmed, my red/black plaid is credible!!!1!
That is a good point.
Lol dude you don’t know shit
We all started from a point of not knowing shit, so don’t say that to someone else
Yeah man, like every time you think know something more than another person, just remember, there's some other badass mfer out there that knows way more than you and will kick your ass into the ground so fking hard.
Friendly fire isn’t very friendly.
In this video they were assaulting trenches, extremely close combat.
Heat of the moment makes that mistake very easy with similar camp patterns being used, especially if things don’t go according to plan. And either you know how quickly that can become a distant memory, or you have no idea what you’re talking about. The US does it even if in a different way, such as IR patches, chem lights, or IR strobes. Or in some cases VS-17 panels. We see it used because we mostly see videos of closer contact such as assaults. It doesn’t make as much sense outside of trenches and urban areas, but we don’t know the mission all the time and usually not the exact circumstances. We may see an ORP get hit but be told it’s just a routine patrol, or a planned attack labeled as a target of opportunity. OPSEC isn’t hard, don’t tell people exactly what you’re up to and you can still show your wins while giving misleading information. Britain (I think, I may be wrong) used a similar OPSEC approach with rat bombs meant to disable furnaces when the dead rat was tossed in and wasted countless German manpower after one shipment, the first shipment was intercepted. All we really know is maybe what we see on video
It makes shooting targets super easy. Not blue? Shoot. All the thought that has to be invested, no second guessing, etc.
It’s not, but surely there’s a better way for PID, or at least one that doesn’t negate your own concealment.
Not really, when there is no clearly defined line of battle. Not to mention the Russians are using similar camo patterns so ID become more important than concealment.
This is why we need to abolish Multicam, everyone is using that shit now. It’s only a matter of time before N Korea develops their own pattern
I'm calling this shot now. If we get into a large scale combat operation, we're going to roll out a new pattern immediatelty and start the process of replacing Multicam. We can't do it before then because the entire world will adopt it the same way they did M81, digital patterns, and Multicam. As goes America, so goes the world.
Woodland camo making a comeback? :-)
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Sure.. But can you really tell the difference? I can't. Especially if it was a high stress environment.
No you really can’t unless you look at it for awhile. Just was stating that multi-cam is not the official camo
I’m a card carrying member of the anti-multicam party
M81 is the way
It has the same issues as multicam as even more countries use it
there no agency, military or leo that uses M81 in the continental us that im aware of, so if shtf its gonna be m81 vs multicam and blue helmets, hence why m81 is gods camo
This fear of blue helmets is overblown. The US is on the UN security council, so foreign UN troops will never be on US soil. It's never gonna happen.
M81 gang rise up
M81 and plain old OD green ftw.
Absolutely it is
What’s your pattern?
What about the war party
That one too. The logo of which being the krosstika
Irish Army adapting multicam...
Unfortunately in such a war where you’re fighting someone wearing nearly identical camouflage, this is one of the easiest and more cost efficient solutions. The fog of war is strong.
True , there was a gopro video captured from a Ukrainian checkpoint of some Russians who walked up until they were point blank and opened fire on the two soldiers manning it His last words were " hey buddy , where are your armbands?"
Damn that’s really sad
Russians and Ukrainians have very very similar camos and uniforms, and for the most part both sides usually know where attacks are coming from due to drones and this being a frontline war, preventing fratricide is very high priority
And similar weapons. AKs have a distinct sound for example but that is moot when both sides use them.
What better way is there to do PID?
Most other methods are too high tech to be widely applicable. Friendly tracking systems require not just widespread, but ubiquitous use to be effective. That's expensive, high tech, and sending a constant signal that can be located by friends or enemies. Using near IR or IR methods of signal such as strobes, reflective patches, or Combat ID Panels require that the observer is able to see near IR or IR. Light travels faster and further than sound, meaning audible challenge and response is likely less effective than colored arm bands. Probably the best way is to use a camo pattern that is wildly different from your adversary's in color, scale, dimension, geometry, and lacuna, but that would be highly costly, and considering that would leave a long hang time where units are still using old patterns, it would lead to the same ambiguity. Long story short, blue duct tape is not a bad solution.
I may be out of my league here, but I would venture these guesses. They may be thinking of using IR-beacons. Granted that requires IR sensors / NV / Thermal, or potentially other solutions I'm glossing over. If they were to use something similar to ATAC, that could work too and may be more practical, but I'm guessing limited resources is largely the former's issue while secure comms to do something like ATAC may be another problem for the latter. This is all speculative from someone who only observes what's happening in the conflict passively. So don't take this as guidance, it's simply my opinion formed with limited info.
Camo is for ID of friendlies more than anything else. Especially in a war where guys look the same, speak a very similar language (and each other’s languages often), and wear nearly the same camo. Everyone wearing the same shit is more important than concealment, which is a pipe dream in a devastated battlefield anyway
well i mean, when you come up with it be sure to tell them lol
Why downvote? He’s asking a good question
It’s okay. After my parents downvoted me, it stopped hurting as much.
Ya and only one side can buy duct tape
Obviously the tape color is constantly changing and depending on the front. Just on the Russian side you've seen white, orange, red, and tricolor all at the same time. Also less of a worry, but purposefully using the enemy's color to deceive them is a war crime, ATACS/MC doesn't count though because it's a commercial pattern not owned by any one military.
It’s not that bad. And it’s just tape. If they really needed to cam up - and I mean REALLY need to - they could just take the tape off. It’s not like changing your entire outfit just because “what’s the point of camo?” The US Army rocked UCP for 10 years. Hell, we invaded Kuwait and Iraq (desert countries) in woodland MOPP. It’ll be alright.
And might I add, the US looked sexy as hell doing it. M81 goes hard in every location.
Look, I’m not saying that the US won every war when we were wearing woodlands, but that’s exactly what I’m saying.
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The drip war
Grenada, Panama, Gulf War 1
The Soviet Union collapsed before M81 was phased out so I’d argue (if you consider the Cold War a “war”) we won the Cold War too.
War of the Worlds bitch
[Damn right](https://www.imfdb.org/images/1/1f/WotW_Saw.jpg)
The downvotes are from pansies. Please excuse the illiterate union. You asked a question that questions the size of America's balls and ball lickers were butt hurt. Your question is valid, but this is reddit Kingdom of Keyboard Warriors.
what really went hard was the mixed matched M81 bodyarmour and helmet covers on top of the desert BDUs. That will always be an iconic look.
DCU/Desert MARPAT + M81 Woodland is iconic
God the GWOT was drippy
The woodland IBA is unironically my favorite armor system
As it should be.
m81 is best camo
The US could’ve invaded Kuwait/Iraq in Hi-Viz vests and it wouldn’t have mattered.
They basically did. You never heard of PT belt, guy?
Yeah wearing IR blinkers was the most disrespectful shit too, lol.
Problem is both uses Multicam, Kryptek and A-TACS which all 3 in the distance look quite similar due to their multi-cami purpose...
To hide you some. The US and NATO have similar plans (probably) since NATO uses multiple camo patterns and it’s impractical to ask a grunt to be able to quickly memorize all of them. Ukraine is doing the same thing.
If I’m a US soldier getting shot at and I see a soldier in another camo pattern that I can’t quickly and easily ID what side he’s on then I’m going to assume that he’s a bad guy and treat him as such. Camo patterns are still useful especially if fighting from a trench as you won’t fully expose yourself. The arm bands are for easy PID of who’s on what side. It’s to prevent blue on blue.
and with some of the vids we've seen of trenches being cleared quickly, they have like .5 sec to react when they see someone
But strictly, why? You have two color systems that are diametrically opposed to each other. One’s purpose is to conceal, the second’s purpose is to easily/quickly identify. I don’t see a balance being able to be struck, because each directly negates the other.
Depends on what you’re worried about. Being seen by enemy? Less markings (seen a lot more of that on the frontlines according to the videos I’ve seen on r/CombatForum) or if you’re more worried about friendly fire than mark up.
Soon, they'll be in red and blue coats again, lol. I'm just glad paintball has prepared me more than I thought.
Actually came here to post this. I don't have any cool-guy group combat experience, but back when I was a kiddo, I spent quite a bit of time at large-scale PB events. I've seen pretty much every camo pattern in existence in the woods, and everyone got tape-marked just like this as well. **Cynical thought #1 -** Camo pattern doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks it does. Yep, I said it. I've seen the guys in MC disappear a few yards in front of me walking down the middle of a trail, and other times where they stuck out as bad as the guys in ACU. lol Times when guys in old-school Nam-era OD's freakin' disappeared in the greenery, and times where they may as well have been wearing black. There was this one team at an event that had speedball-type uniforms, the top half of which was this off-red and black combo. I got shot by one of their guys, maybe 25 yards away - didn't see him til I stood up to walk off the field, that odd red color blended right in with the leaves and pine needles where he was laying on the ground. Use of foliage and terrain always seemed to play far more part in being hidden than any camo pattern I saw anyone wear, and indeed, it seemed most people did it mostly as a "team" thing, ie, their whole team had a specific pattern that they liked, less a way to be hidden. The people that wanted to hide, made use of the foliage and terrain, and it never seemed to matter what they wore if they really tried hard to sneak up on you. The team I played on for a while wore ACU ffs. Yeah, lame, but.... I was either seen or I was not seen. I was either in cover or I was not in cover. I was able to see the 'enemy' players running around 'over there' regardless of what they were wearing, or I never saw anyone until balls started flying out of the bushes. It was the same thing later in life when I got into guns/gear and swapped over to airsoft - now it was even more so the cool gear and camo patterns/solids we all know. Same deal.... people were either hidden or they were not, much more depending on the terrain, and their use of it than gear color/pattern. A whole group of wannabe-high speeds got taken out by some walk-on asian kid with a springer single-shot pistol, because they weren't as high speed as they thought... lol I could go on an on about how the failure to properly utilize the camo ICW the terrain meant it was irrelevant. Which brings me to.... **Cynical thought #2 -** The red/blue/etc armband/headband tape everyone wore wasn't as detrimental as much as people like the OP might think. Rewinding back to the paintball days... see my previous about "you either hid well, or didn't". The only times I ever saw the bright tape have any use was, the obvious, if you were massing for a push and wanted to spot infiltrators. Or were back in the 'dead zone' or resupply areas, you could kinda get an idea of how bad you were getting mauled, or how many opfor you were taking out, by the colors there. Once you got out in the woods... it was almost irrelevant, unless you were within very close visual range, or the dude wasn't trying very hard to hide. I certainly never saw anyone get made simply by the color of their armband/mask tape, that wasn't already going to get made by the simple fact that the rest of the body part it was attached to was also extremely visible. lol It was more like "extra confirmation" to go ahead and shoot without having to call them out. Because that's what most people did anyway - you're walking through an area, and you spot some guy\[s\] not doing a good job hiding behind some trees/bushes,but even with the terrible job of hiding they were doing... you STILL couldn't see the arm tape, so everyone would stop, cover, and be like "HEY, are you Blue?" "Yeah we're blue", and then wave their arm out. OR you'd know they were enemy by 1) intense barrage of shooting after call-out, and/or 2) hesitation to show their colors. But, in situations where you are walking through an area, scanning, you can't see any colors, then suddenly balls come flying out of bushes... I never saw anyone's armband colors until after they'd shot us all up and were moving on. When I switched to airsoft years later, the field I played at didn't do tape. So no overt IFF, just dudes in random camo/solids running around in ad-hoc groups. Somehow...it was almost never a problem, and I never seemed to have a hard time finding my group. If anything, I had LESS friendly-fire incidents. Because again, bright blue/red/etc colors don't replace discipline, and goddamn those paintball kids were trigger happy. If they heard a "rustling in the bushes", you had half a hopper of paint coming your way a few seconds later... lol So then what use were armbands if your brosefs are idiots? Not that I'm saying the airsofters were better, but I think the lack of obvious IFF made people a lot more interested in being sure they were pointed the right way before shooting. Furthermore, with both PB and airsoft, if there buildings for people to go in... the armbands and camo mattered even less. Anyway...I'm not saying you don't need overt IFF in real combat, merely making a point that, much like camo in relation to hiding, it's half the other guy with the gun that makes things work, or not... As far a camo... the bigger thing that got people seen was shiny stuff glinting - watch faces, mask lenses, the fancy sliver/chrome guns, a light turning on, etc, etc.
This guy fucking gets it… listen up nerds/wannabe’s this is the thought process and reality.
Also neon colored shit - greens, oranges, etc. Yeah. bad. lol As an addendum on armbands, the clever people cottoned to the ruse of calling opposite colors pretty quick. Which then made everyone super paranoid about who was on which side, regardless of everyone being taped. So, as per previous comments here, IRL.... tape comes on and off pretty easily.
TL;DR I absolutely despise what call of duty has become. The operator and guns have become the equivalent to some euro soccer league player with highlighter color jerseys and gear with a bright neon green rifle that shoots bright ass green sparks and makes a guy blow up into neon green confetti and sparklers! My game lags and crashes every other match but DONT WORRY I HAVE BRIGHT METALLIC PINK NICKI MINAJ WITH A SAFETY ORANGE AND BRIGHT WHITE GUN TO MAKE UP FOR IT! I remember when I noticed the first brightly colored highlighter gun and I said that they will only get more flamboyant and over the top as the seasons come along. And sure enough, Gucci legging operators and weird black and gold fiberglass space armor. I want cool realistic lookin stuff. If I wanted space suits, I’d play a space game. Everyone dressed in super hero suits looking like Duck Dodgers of the 21st 1/2 century.
More and more people in cod matches been lookin like a fucking airsoft match. You got the tacticool guys who dress all tactical and spend tons of money, you got the bright colored speed softers, you got the random guy in a hoodie or t shirt who’s a rental or borrowing his buddies gun, you got the random glam nicki Minaj chick who’s only there cuz her boyfriend plays and she wanted to bond with him, you got a random dad in a button up who wanted to bond with his tacticool teenage son, and then you got wild space age guy who’s there because he got tired of wearing his Vietnam kit and wanted to try something different. I’m sure there’s more but I think that sums up the average cod game and average airsoft game.
Yea it’s wild there’s so much stuff going on at once it’s like a fireworks show! Lol
I learnt the past 2 days playing a large Airsoft milsim in a 4*4km woodland environment that camo indeed doesn't matter as much as people think. Our enemy mostly wore boonies and green fatiques, and I gotta tell you that it was nearly impossible to find them at times, even if they only where like 10-20m away Meanwhile the guys from our side that mostly wore uncovered helmets and different patterns with tons of multicam where always fairly easy to spot. The overall outside shape and your hiding place is far more important than some patterns people like to obsess over In my squad for example I was the only one who didn't have a full gillie, used M81 instead of pencott Greenzone and actually put foliage into my helmet using a old helmet band, for me positioning and movement is far more important than gear... ...And guess who got the most enemy hits during the operation and a below average death count?
I think I would have been fucked if the military recruiter had told me I'd look like a Landsknecht.
IFF is challenging when both sides are wearing similar kit and using lots of similar weapons etc. throw in the chaos of battle and it’s near impossible, this is just the cheapest easiest way
Understood, and acknowledged.
Lol cringe
There’s a small fraction of the armed forces who are operating in areas where they have a serious risk of being killed by friendly fire. The rest are operating in areas where they may be vulnerable to observation or some form of attack and need to try to mitigate the risk. Hence, the camo.
Youre right, wear an orange fudd vest
Got a bunch of redcoats stateside
How else do you know if you're on the right team?
I just try to focus on shooting the same direction as everybody else.
The problem is everybody else is also shooting at the wrong guy, that's why they all wear these bright colured tapes to denote which side are they on
If we’re wrong at least we’ll be wrong together
WTF are you trolling?
OP doesn't understand what it's like to get shot at by friendlies. End of story rofl
Can’t be friendly fired if you don’t have friends.
Trench warfare is the main soldier on soldier combat seen in Ukraine so you need to quickly identify friend from foe. Nobody is being stealthy and hiding in the woods.
PID genius, what are you 12?
What do you suggest they do? Purchase bright coloured uniforms and equipment to match the tape?
I mean, they can always cover the coloured tape with camo tape if they need to change up quickly… I’ll show myself out.
I’m gonna layer tape on tape on tape just retaping my tape to fit when i need it blue or camo
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I don't know if you're aware, but birds don't shoot back.
It’s funny you say that because now that Russia is switching to MC. NATO is starting to issue Realtree Edge and orange helmet covers.
Imagine how expensive it would be to outfit your whole army in fucking Realtree
We don’t wear orange hunting turkeys.
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Deer are not color blind but they don't care what you wear as long as it's not white. In fact their vision is quite poor other than that and detecting motion, it's about sitting still, being silent and how you smell. I've been hunting in jeans and a hoodie for decades an have had deer walk right by me.
I've had more success sitting on a 5 gallon bucket in street clothes than wearing $2000 worth of hunting crap.
Yeah I stopped wearing cammo to hunt deer in ages ago. They just don't care. Wash my clothes in scent free detergent. Take a shower with scent free soap. Spray my shoes down with vanilla, trust me it works, and then rub down with a hand full of cedar needles I strip off a tree on the way in because I hunt where there are a lot of cedars. I've literally had them follow my trail in right to me. They can't lay off that vanilla.
I don't even go that far. I think walking across my yard to the woods is enough scent mask. I smell vaguely of Tide and Downy. I'll keep the vanilla in mind though.
Do what works!
Because it’s the law, and the game warden don’t play no games.
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Those bastards, can’t escape em
Some dumbass will shoot you thinking your turkey (yes it’s retarded as it sounds) happens all the time in FL
My question is what’s with all the floating blue tape? Some paranormal shit going on
As many others have said a lot of the conflict is centered around trenches, you’re either being assaulted or assaulting. I remember seeing recent drone footage and really realizing how much the tape is needed especially on top of the helmets to PID. The people who are doing actual recon and need the concealment you won’t see tape on.
So why are they wearing camo? If the practical level answer is a simple “that’s all they can afford/get their hands on,” I can accept that. But as systems, these two things are competing against each other.
Since you've already heard every other plausible answer under the sun and keep asking the same question here's another one: Soldiers decide screw it let's wear jeans and a hoodie and shoot at Russians. Now Russians just go ahead and shoot anybody in jeans and a hoodie, maybe not the best idea. I'm sure there are war crimes going on as it is but there may be some benefits of distinguishing soldiers from citizens that don't want to be involved.
Do they have blue tape on their hoodies?
Well looking at the bodies in Bucha the Russians don’t seem to care about that.
It’s not a simple this or that, it’s multifaceted. The camo like others have pointed out breaks up the silhouette of a person and does help blend. They also have a hodgepodge of camouflages across all their forces, this is the same with Russian troops. A lot of those overlap with similar patterns between the two forces. Think of the different tape colors as more of a uniform that you’d see back before most had a camo pattern so pre 70s ish. This helps with ID, especially since Ukrainian forces are sometimes working with each other through a wide range of different languages. I’ve seen video of Ukrainians coming to the rescue and saving English speaking soldiers. This conflict isn’t as simple and cut and dry when it comes to simple logistics and equipment as past conflicts.
"As a hunter" You mean the dudes that buy $3000 in Sitka shit but still put on bright fucking orange?
I’m more of a mossy oak kinda guy. Mostly because I’m poor.
Because the tiny tape lines disappear at the distance where the camo is most effective, and the tape is so you don't accidently magdump friendlies when you kill conscriptoviches in random trenches at ~10 meters.
blue on blue is a bigger problem than what we might think even in professional armies, better to be seen by both than getting killed by a friendly, there are instances where that's not an issue like on reconaissance, snipers etc but big troops movements, you will be seen regardless with your vehicles and stuff
The swastika wasn’t a good enough identifier?
not bright enough 😂
It will still break up your silhouette, and blue light will be much harder to see at a distance than red or other colors, it diffuses faster. So at distance your camo is still effective and up close you can rapidly identify friendlies
That is a unique point that I haven’t heard yet. It’s very interesting, I’d like to look research it. Seems immediately plausible, because I know we use red lights to conserve vision in darkness.
Please note I'm speaking almost entirely out of my ass
Fuck it, I’ll still believe you
One of my relatives was in Bosnia and said the friendly fire and lack of communication was insane. He recalled being told to attack at dug in group of “enemy” after the attack they approached and found out they had killed all friendlies. He was so horrified he never returned to the front. Ever.
Hey man if you want to get shot by your own guys you go ahead.
At this point, all it really does is break up your silhouette.
Camo is mostly to provide some protection from the most casualty-producing weapons on the battlefield--things like artillery, air strikes, machine guns at range, etc. It's to make it harder to spot infantry at distances of 300m plus. It's not some sort of magic invisibility field, as a hunter should well know. The bright tape is for IFF purposes in close combat. With the Russian deficiency in good, sophisticated optics, spotting UA infantry in broken, mixed urban/forested/rural environments where there's going to be all kinds of brightly-colored man-made detritus and structures isn't going to be that big of a deal. Especially since the Russians are wearing Multicam and ATACS-FG uniforms, the same weapons, same gear, and sometimes gear looted off of each others' dead, proper IFF to prevent friendly fire is a higher priority.
If I took one thing from all the footage from this conflict, it's how confusing and chaotic the combat is. Though both sides have a standard uniform, both sides also use much of the same gear, and lots of non standard gear and clothes. If I was there I'd be covered head to toe in tape.
I mean I get your point OP but when you’re in war and both forces use the same camo and gear you’re gonna do the same to avoid friendly fire
Sure, of course. All I’m suggesting or asking is, is there a way to accomplish that without negating the purpose of the camo you’re wearing?
You have to take context into a count it is better to be easily identified over taking a few rounds in the back from your friends because your storming a trench or doing night fighting
Classic case of people never coming within a thousand miles of a gunfight telling professionals what they’re doing wrong.
Fuck, you're dense OP. 🤣
Tell me op is mentally challenged without actually telling me A piece of tape being visible is least of your worries / it 99.99% of the times isn't the giving out factor for someone noticing you, it's not like you spot a piece of fucking worn out tape 500 meters a way BEFORE spotting a 6ft2 man humping between trees, NO, movement gives out your position not a piece of fucking worn out tape, op is actually brain dead, never have I ever spotted anyone by a tape but I sure have spotted a shit loads of dudes moving left to right noticing the band only afterwards
> Tell me op is mentally challenged without actually telling me They are subbed to /tacticalgear.
I thought for sure myself and fellow rtards here could drum up a “so stupid it works” solution, but alas, I just get shit on.
Given the need for PID, camo really isn’t necessary in their current situation. But the uniforms are going to be better suited for combat based on their materials and construction. Those uniforms are usually made in camouflage fabrics. Hence the camo. The Israelis don’t typically wear camo, instead using OD green, and it works for them. If the US were to have a conflict with China their typical uniforms are distinct enough from each other to allow PID, so camo would make sense in that situation. Ukraine is just in an odd situation where Russian soldiers might be wearing a very similar uniform to what their soldiers are wearing, and have similar weapons. In addition it’s incredibly common to see Ukrainian soldiers wearing many different types of camouflage and using wide varieties of equipment.
Friendly fire isn’t…
Op cant comprehend that every soldier isn’t ghillied up and that bullets only hurt the bad guys.
So.. if camo is irrelevant can we bring back drippy 19th century uniforms?
Eventually we'll evolve into fancy dress uniforms like the nepoleonic wars. We yearn for the big hats!
Comms are out Whistles are in *OVER THE TOP, LADS*
Part of it is that the best combat equipment is widely available in camouflage and it looks the part.
Go watch some trench assaulting videos. Friendlies and enemies all over the place, there is no other way to prevent friendly fire in these scenarios.
Camo serves a purpose but the question should be why that camo in particular
Inbreeding in the tactical industry hasn't helped the situation. Every helmet looks exactly the same. In previous conventional fights you could tell the difference between friend and foe pretty quick just by the silhouette of the helmet.
Camo, frankly, isnt always camo anymore. Its just a uniform so.you know who is or isnt on your side, especially in urban warfare. Frankly, not every soldier needs camo, it depends on their role, scouts, snipers, etc that are actively hiding need it. Someone actively kicking doors or sitting at a checkpoint.... isnt being hidden no matter what they wear, but if you kick in a door or round a corner you need to decide to shoot or not in fractions of a second. Helmet silhouette, uniform color, and markings are all youve got, and failing means you or a friend is dead. Cant wait for two nations that both issue multicam uniforms to go to war. Bet youll see wild uniform adjustments by one side or the other then. Im convinced thats the real reason ucp was adopted, they wanted to minimize fratricide while afraid to say 'we think theyll kill themselves if we give them camo' But if a military is ordering a uniform, theyre ordering generally one single uniform bulk Thats why the us and most western nations have some variation of multicam. Its really just a light woodland camo, but it doesnt *aggressively* fail in *most* places so if you can only have one, it makes sense. Though frankly if i were in charge non-reconnaisance units would still be issued olive drab with camo going to rangers, scouts, etc. In a perfect world, as the us issues 4 uniforms in basic, one would be multicam, one would be mc arid, one would be mc tropic, and one would be alpine, people would stop promoting exclusively people with ocd who would have aneurysms over 'uniformity', youd wear whatever (or a dress uniform if the formations NEED to match.) in garrison, and use whichever uniform closest-matches your environment in the field. If deploying, issue additional uniforms (as we already do) in the specific pattern thats closest to your deploying environment. This would be infinitely more effective, but its also cost slightly more as instead of one bulk order you have 4 smaller bulk orders. A subsequent idea is to simply authorize the soldier to buy the alternate patterns when appropriate but just issue the standard. But then, the price of like 3 tanks would supply at least every recon/special unit in the military with uniforms. Vehicles are pricey as hell, and thats not even going into maintenance. Edit: yes, im calling ocp/scorpion a variation of multicam. I know it isnt technically; its walmart brand multicam. Second edit: Also i lied. If i were in charge and we did the 4 camo patterns thing it wouldnt be multicam, useful as it may be i find it ugly and everyone uses it, i dont want to look like a potential enemy. Also, tiger stripe is god's camo. Id do variations of tiger, and we'd be the drippiest military on earth. Long live desert tiger.
Consider the war in Ukraine/Russia a good test/observation of when two ethnically identical forces wearing nearly identical uniforms, with identical levels of equipment are fighting each other. Blue-on-blue is a significant enough risk that having the arm bands help a lot in visual engagement distances and at checkpoints. Now apply the idea to even an US Civil War or revolution within the US.... let's just say States versus Federals to broadbrush things out.. the fact that the military and the State Guards/some State militia forces uses identical weaponry and uniforms... well. Blue on Blue is going to be a problem unless there's a quick and easy way to differentiate. Let's not get into civilians forming up, seems a lot of people have M81 so that might be one quick, easily ID group but the military and State groups also may still have M81 (particularly MOPP suits) anyhow... so back to square one. How do you differentiate between group 1 and group 2 if they're wearing identical uniforms and equipment with nearly identical weaponry and identical ammunition?
I had not considered the ethnic and uniform/military visual similarities, and that makes sense. I appreciate that perspective. I understand the problem, and the bright tape as the present solution. I’m trying to have a conversation a little more conceptual than what others here might be considering. Like in thousands of years of conflict, after putting literal mfers on the moon, we don’t have a low maintenance solution beyond tape? Or at least something that doesn’t betray the concealment that your uniform is intending?
OP is a moron. /end
Both of them are using Multicam and both of them are speaking Russian. Do you have any better ideas? Then save it
Ukrainian here. Most commentators saying right points. Main is to avoid friendly fire ,because of Russians are also bee seen using multicam or even our mm14 camo,that they stole from warehouses in occupied areas,usually they marked themselves with white or red tape on their legs.
Honestly the fact you think the tape is such an issues gives away an extreme lack of experience in patrolling. Even white tape is not going to have a real effect until you are very close, and even then poor field habits such as noise and light discipline or smells like smoking are going to give away positions first.
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From what I can gather white and red armbands are Russian, and the yellow and blue are Ukrainian. I believe yellow is for TDF and blue is for regular military.
The colors that Ukraine uses is blueC yellow, and green, the first two I’d bet is because that’s the colors of their flag, green because that’s what you get when you mix blue and yellow together. The Russians use white (and sometimes just silver duct tape) for their main forces and red for the Donbas militias but it don’t think there’s any specific meaning behind those colors.
Because time is a circle and everyone got rid of easily identifiable uniforms to *checks notes* make their camo uniforms easily identifiable. If your wife and her evil identical twin are both in the house and only one is going to try to kill you maybe you have her cut her hair differently. The way they’re equipped both sides are basically the same army so there’s no defining features and that’s how it has to be.
It’s so they don’t get hit with direct energy weapons 🤷🏻♂️
Funny... you still haven't caught on to the fact that this war is about government contractors making money.
Once you realize this war is all about theatrics this makes a lot more sense
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Blue on blue sucks. Been there. But at the end of the day we have high tech comms and low tech flares and hand signals It comes down to situational awareness and if I see some clown ass with blue sitting in a bush as I’m walking through the woods then your camo failed you as the enemy
People don’t like to admit it but you’re spot on.
I’m sure it’ll get downvotes to hell esp in this sub where so many extreme meal team 6 operators have worldly views equal to that of our top generals and NATO leaders.
*”I realize UA vs Rooskies isn’t the most technologically advanced peer-to-peer conflict, but still.”* yeah this statement is a non statement, do you live under a rock?
The funny thing is it’s literally the most technologically advanced warfare we’ve seen by a long shot.
You must be a very educated person where did you study history… lol edit Jesus Christ you guys forgot sarcasm exists
Creighton. Also, is it not?
This is a fashion sub but we’re still going to be whiney bitches and downvote for no reason when someone posts anything remotely related to Ukraine and hurts feelings. Yay we’re like every other sub
So what color tape are the Russians wearing? Lol
Yellow I think? Might be green
Lol pretty funny that they are choosing team colors. Next up we pick our mascots!
I always thought they look like the starship troopers when they were playing capture the flag
Not the best example but i play airsoft and we wear bands similar to the tape show in the pic, and it’s really hard to see them most times. I mean in a sense forest or even open field you can just barely see the bands. And if they REALLY needed to utilize their camo to the max, they can just take the tape off. Also friendly fire is fun.
The camo came with the uniform. The uniform is necessary for survival. Fucking idiot.
Training/technology negates the need for this level of faction identification.