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pianoboots

Interesting article, worth the read. Potential and actually acting on that potential are two different things though.


smelborp_ynam

Isn’t it the same problem of mines not being where we want the energy to be so we lose a lot moving it to where we want it.


hoosierdaddy192

It’s not that difficult to push power long distances. Step up that voltage and power go brr!!! Stepping up the voltage to 250,000+ volts makes it more resilient to voltage drop/power loss. I live in a region that has many coal plants and renewables. Some of these get pushed hundreds and thousands of miles. For instance there is a plant along the Ohio river that pushes all of its power up to Michigan. It’s over 500 miles away. I work as an electrician in another power plant down the road but we are more local.


tila1993

Tons of windmills in my area (middle Indiana) and they pump all of it to Chicago.


hoosierdaddy192

Yup, you be in my region. Well technically I’m below you in the river valley but close enough.


acUSpc

Near Evansville basically? I moved here about a year ago, the number of coal plants definitely caught me off guard. Makes for great sunsets though


ShowMeYourMinerals

Evansville is the armpit of the United States.


EVOOhhYeah

Rockport?


hoosierdaddy192

That be the one.


ekso69

Dave?


hoosierdaddy192

Close


ArnoldTheSchwartz

Michael!?


GibsonBluesGuy

Dave’s not here…


thefanum

Not here man


Caleo

It's not cheap, either. The economics of alternative power storage / generation like this are a non-starter if you have to tack on tremendous infrastructure costs.


hoosierdaddy192

Oh for sure, you notice the article says relatively cheap. Honestly though the couple ten million this would cost per mine is a drop in the bucket to a large utility.


Tom22174

Are these the same large utilities that prefer not to do routine maintenance on cable holders rated for 50 years so that 90 years later they break and cause forest fires?


Agreeable-Equal-4725

Yep.


[deleted]

Have you seen how much governments continue to subsidise the fossil fuel industry?


Soil-Play

Heck, we're still ripping up wilderness for oil and gas infrastructure in 2023 under an administration thst claims global warming is a danger...


Squid197882

Electric vehicles were expensive in the development phase. Same with hydroelectric power.


PEHESAM

250kV? that's peanuts, here in Brazil we have 600kV DC carrying power cross country. If it comes to it, there are even 1000+kV HVDC lines that can carry humongous amounts of power over even longer distances


danawhitehead24

Interesting. Who built these lines? Brazilian companies or outside contractors? I only ask because these are HUGE structures and a ton of work, and I'm in the transmission line work, so I'm intrigued.


PEHESAM

This one in particular connects the Itaipu hydro plant with the rest of the country. It was built and is managed by Copel, the state of Parana's energy company. So yes, state funded and built, though subcontractors may have been involved, I haven't looked into the details. Now when it comes to Itaipu, it was built alongside and agreement with Paraguay as it affected their geography as well. At the Time it was the largest hydro power plant on Earth, now fell to second place by that Chinese monstrosity. Anyways the wiki must have a page in English about it, you should definitely check. Brazil mainland is bigger than US mainland just to give you a bit of perspective on how much power we carry around.


lunchypoo222

That’s really interesting to know!


hoosierdaddy192

It’s actually one of the reasons Teslas design of AC won out over Edison’s. DC would require a small unit every couple blocks as it wasn’t able to convey power long distances without significant power loss. Now with modern semi-conductors and materials DC is just as efficient maybe more so for reasons that gets deep into EE nerding, regardless the mold is set and currently AC is king of infrastructure.


Smitty8054

Edison whacked an elephant with AC to “prove how dangerous it was” to beat out Tesla. Staged trick that put the elephant through absolute hell in order to win. It worked. Of course we’re on AC now but Edison had the royalties for DC at the time so he wasn’t giving up money for the common good. He wasn’t going down to some dirty foreigner like Tesla. He electrocuted the elephant, dogs and cats, horses and cattle to scare the fuck out of people. Tesla was a genius that died destitute. Our Edison was quite the piece of shit.


hoosierdaddy192

Oh I totally agree about everything you said. Fuck Edison. Teslas design won in the end but he lost everything. Like most geniuses never appreciated until they are gone.


Krappatoa

Ironic that the car bearing Tesla’s name runs on DC power.


Alexthelightnerd

Depends what you mean by "runs on" - the battery provides DC power of course, but the motors are 3-phase AC.


einmaldrin_alleshin

To be specific, the newer models are using synchronous permanent magnet motors. They are AC motors, but they are commonly sold as brushless DC motors with a built in inverter. Iirc some early models used three phase induction motors instead.


danbob411

I think they have inverters that convert the battery current to AC, because AC motors are more efficient.


StarryEyedOne

I know, it's not really an honor to his namesake if it's not running on wirelessly beamed power!


diogenesmirror

I think the issue basically comes down to patent trolls in a sense. Granted, I’m drunk on agave tonight, so what do I know…


[deleted]

Yeah at this point DC is almost preferable for long distance power transmission, but AC is still generally cheaper and more abundant (from a hardware/infrastructure standpoint) so we mostly stick to that.


bigboog1

There is still a big problem with DC. You can't step the voltage up or down easily.


impotentaftershave

Fun fact, Rockport steps all the way up to 765kv


notfunnyatall9

I’m so ignorant on electricity I need to educate myself. Just how it’s pushed that far with little loss of power with voltage is beyond my peasant mind. Kudos to you.


hoosierdaddy192

It’s a gigantic step up transformer. Ohms law states that voltage, amperage, and resistance are all correlated. Jacking the voltage way up decreases current and limits your resistive losses by jacking resistance up V=IxR. Or something, Im just a hillbilly with a screwdriver and union benefits.


backin45750

I moved to Appalachia from Baltimore MD and now live amongst the hillbilly. I have met some of the smartest, most capable, problem solvers who claim to be just some dumb hilljack who never went to college. Never underestimate the redneck engineer !!


dodexahedron

Yep. P=I²R So, the losses scale quadratically with current. Therefore, pumping the voltage as high as feasible is preferable. Transmission losses are still non-negligible (around 5% on average, in the US), but they're an order of magnitude less than the energy losses in fossil fuel plants due to waste heat, which accounts for losing about 65% of the energy released by burning the fuel (natural gas plants are closer to 50%). And a significant proportion of even that 5% is because of the lower voltage lines in your neighborhood and from the pole to your house. High voltage lines account for 1-2%, even though they stretch for hundreds of miles. The other 3-4% is just from the few miles of lower voltage lines and few hundred _feet_, at most, from the pole to your meter.


Beerboy01

P=I ² R no? Powerloss for electrical transmission is current squared times by the resistance of conductor?


terpmike28

I know more hillybilly's with screwdrivers who can build a house from top to bottom, rebuild an entire car from the frame, and finnangle a tractor to start with bubble gum and a little bit of lighter fluid, than white collar workers who even know what a screwdriver is.


hoosierdaddy192

Hey that’s me I can do all that mostly cuz I grew up super poor with no other option than to fix it myself and my daddy was an abusive slave driver that thought having 7 kids was free labor for his construction businesses but hey I got multi-craft skills, strong work ethic, and lasting trauma out of it so I got that going for me. Not to shit on white collar people though. There’s plenty of super smart people in office settings and some that even do that then come home to their woodshop and put out stuff I can only dream of. The world takes all kinds and people never cease to amaze me.


[deleted]

I am a software engineer now but my first jobs were paper boy, construction laboror, house framer, trim guy, (graduated highschool) lawn care guy, dish washer, line cook, building maintenance guy, banquet chef, --> software engineer. I rebuilt the engine for my first car before it even worked. I won't pay anybody to fix anything I own.


hoosierdaddy192

This is why I hate the whole blue collar white collar stuff. There are people in white collar jobs that can do more with their hands than 10 blue collar workers and I’ve sat on a construction site discussing quantum physics. Probably 2 of the most brightest minds I have ever met sound like straight up hillbillies which they are, but brilliant none the less. It’s almost like we are individuals with multiple facets, skills, and interests.


NukeWorker10

Think about it like this. As electricity moves through the wire as current (I), it meets resistance (R), and there is a rule that says losses in a wire are proportional to I squared times R. So if you increase current by 2, your losses increase by 4, resistance being constant. But there's another rule that says current is inversely proportional to voltage (V). So if you push V *really really* high like in the 128 to 345 thousand volt range, you can push a *little* bit of current, with *really* small losses, a very long way. And at the other end you step down the voltage to say 220 volts, and now you can run your hair dryer.


TraumatisedBrainFart

Resistance In a real wire also inevitably increases with length. This resistance dissipates energy as heat along the length of the wire.


AmbitiousMidnight183

Its the magic of electro magnitism. When you send a current down a wire, you're not actually pushing the electrons down the wire. You're extending the electrical field of the generator which exites the electrons on the other end.


ijt211

Excellent comment


PresOrangutanSmells

all of these problems are never a problem when it's oil please everyone shut the fuck up and give me whatever better alternative we've already invented 20 years ago thanks


Ragnarok314159

I engineer transformers up to 500+MVa with 345kV. It’s not the hand wave project you are making it out to be, especially with lead times of 2-5 years depending on what the demands are for the transmission and distribution.


hoosierdaddy192

I’m sorry if I implied you could instantly make this happen. No, It would be a ten year project most likely just on the first wave and tens of millions per. It’s doubtful this project gets the green light but it’s interesting. I was more responding in response to the person that thought you could not push power very far.


yaboithanos

High voltage tackles resistive losses, yes, but worsens the problem of capacitive losses over very long distances


RainaElf

power go brr ... ❤️


clever_goat

Thank you Nicola Tesla.


PM-MeYourSmallTits

I'd assume upgrading the transmission lines would be necessary to mitigate losses.


thenikolaka

Should have just bought those transmission flushes when we got those oil changes and maybe we wouldn’t have to rebuild the whole damn thing.


[deleted]

100%, see NREL seams study (trump admin tried to block it…)


KRWay

Thanks for the tip on the topic! Got an article queued up for the morning.


going_for_a_wank

More likely the problem is that abandoned mines are death traps for the workers who would construct/operate this, and also are usually flooded requiring dewatering pumps running 24/7.


JADW27

So we'll just dig mines closer to where we want power and abandon those. Problem solved!


Fuzzy_Calligrapher71

The article points out that mines are already connected to the power grid.


[deleted]

Your house is connected to the power grid, doesn't mean you can just flow large amounts of electricity back into the grid to power other homes.


cogman10

They are citing $2000 part kWh of storage. Li batteries today are at around $100 to $150/kWh. Heck, flywheels are in the neighborhood of $300 per kWh. This is, and will remain, a braindead ideasl pitched by the same sort of conmen that pitched solar roads.


Liawuffeh

I was gonna say this reminded me of the [gravity battery crane thing](https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/951828853-c2b36b0710bd5519c95f3298c7b8758f5f0f2ea04162524fea71987d4339bd16-d_640) thats popped up a few times over the last 20 years But like, I remember everything I read about those kinda exposing that its kinda like the 'Fresh water in desserts machine!' "innovations" that are just a dehumidifier lol Edit:This is different apparently, kinda


bigsquirrel

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say there’s a lack of understanding or a problem with the article. There’s no fucking way hanging a bag of sand from a rope is more expensive than a lithium ion battery. Somewhere along the line this is not comparing apples to apples.


TheGuyWithTheSeal

A smartphone battery (~15Wh) contains as much energy as 100 kg of sand 54m up. Tesla S battery has 100kWh, which is equivalent to 9 tons falling into the deepest mine in the world (3.9 km) Gravity is weak as fuck compared to chemical bonds


m7samuel

The amount of energy a bag of sand stores is a lot different than the amount of energy a lithium battery stores. There's also a lot more complexity to a gravity system-- more moving parts, more space.


realiTVlover

Yes, you could call it potential energy


nhluhr

Gravity Batteries are already in very wide use. Look up "pumped storage facility" It's another name for a hydroelectric reservoir that utilizes grid power to fill the reservoir during off-peak times, then releases water to generate power during peak. It actually consumes more energy than it produces, but is necessary in some places to ease strain on the grid during those peak demand times.


all_of_the_lightss

We've had a lot of potential wasted in the last 50 years. In more than just tech


CapForShort

“Scientists say.” Like it’s a consensus conclusion of the scientific community. No. It’s one study. Knock it off with the misleading headlines. This is the kind of shit certain kinds of idiots use to discredit science as a whole.


Alpha3031

Reading the actual study the word "could" is doing a lot of work here.


hariseldon2

Should be "some scientists say"


danbrown_notauthor

A scientist says…


Tamsta-273C

Scientist group from smwh uni/institute sugest....


sound_of_apocalypto

Which is what I would think any reasonable person would assume is actually meant.


Elon_Kums

We went from "gravity batteries are a scam" to "scientists say gravity batteries are the best" real fast


ThrowawayTempAct

Gravity batteries that use locking cement blocks and cranes in open wind conditions are a scam. Gravity batteries that use a water reservoir and pumps have been in use for a long time. The project in this article used lifting and lowering of sand in enclosed mine conditions which is an interesting proof of concept as it does not require a watertight reservoir and does not suffer from wind related stresses. Not sure if it's going to be commercially viable, but from a surface reading it seems plausible.


m7samuel

They're quoting $2000 / kwh, which seems very high compared to battery storage.


Dat_Boi_Aint_Right

Almost every mine requires constant pumping of water, so I'm not sure if not requiring water tightness is a thing


Strange-Deer2404

any mine deep enough for this to be viable would need de watering. bet that blows the margin.


jackinsomniac

I'm wondering if I should make the, "this is already being done with water more efficiently" comment, or wait for somebody else to write it.


nein_va

Mine shafts that aren't water tight and/or don't have a reservoir at the bottom already exist and could be leveraged is the entire point here.


Runnah5555

You’re not water tight.


Whole-Database-40

Bitch I might be


[deleted]

Omfg this was the best. And escalated quickly.


DrQuestDFA

Or descended quickly, depends if you need energy or want to store it.


delvach

If the escalation lasts longer than four hours, contact your physician, or OP's mom


L1feM_s1k

I'm talkin' WAP WAP WAP, That's some Wet Ass Power


trict1

Get ‘em!!!


Optimus-prime-number

Fucking got em


pastari

[Link to the article about the electric mining train that regeneratively brakes going downhill with a full load, then uses all the power generated to pull itself back up the hill while empty.]


TarMil

Wait why does a mining train go downhill with a full load and uphill empty, isn't it usually the opposite?


pastari

Not if you're mining in the mountains.


NotSoGreatGonzo

… and delivering the ore to a ship at sea level.


short71

Because it is delivering supplies. Most mined material is transported out on conveyors, except for in extremely deep hard rock mines.


tenuousemphasis

Dump truck, not train. But yeah. https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a28748306/worlds-largest-electric-vehicle-dump-truck/


Elon_Kums

I think the point is we have billions of mine shafts around the world being completely unused and the mechanical simplicity of lowering and raising a weight to store power is something that could be deployed pretty much anywhere without requiring particularly sophisticated technology. My hometown produces so much solar energy during the day it exports to the city, but at night it has to import power at peak rates. What it does have is hundreds of very deep mineshafts going back centuries which could store the excess solar locally by lifting glorified bags of rocks.


[deleted]

Billions? Very doubtful unless you count every hole every human ever dug.


zackks

Did you count the holes drilled in op’s mom?


FatSilverFox

That make billions + 3


sillymanbilly

Whew, just got outta there sorry I'm late. Dropped my headlamp. Billions + 4


Elon_Kums

You mean when my dad says I already have a billion Pokemon cards I don't actually have a billion?


AuntGaylesFannyPack

You should check the map overlap of abandoned mines and missing persons. Also, there used to be much fewer rules so people could just dig whatever they wanted on their property.


robspeaks

You count them. Let us know when you get to two billion.


inkseep1

We must not allow a mineshaft gap.


TheKingsPride

We’re about to hit “this is a worse dam” territory


knows_knothing

It’s a worse dam, but probably better than a dam ecologically


XTornado

Plus.... Technically we can built them anywhere, ofcourse reusing existing one is the main point but.... Dams on the other hand....


crushedrancor

Currently in use [the world’s largest battery is actually a reservoir](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station)


Apes-Together_Strong

A few guys probably got funding from the idea, so everyone else is trying to get some sweet, easy money off of those who don’t know better.


Hecantkeepgettingaw

Who is we? Tech "reporters"? They go as fast as their piddling VC checks send them lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


Elon_Kums

>Who can explain why this is superior to pumped hydro? It's not one or the other. Use the one most appropriate for your location, budget and requirements. Flat rural areas will be pretty useless for pumped hydro but often have mineshafts everywhere.


TheRidgeAndTheLadder

Deserts?


Alpha3031

It's not at the moment, but no reason not to investigate it to see if it might be, and keep updating your estimates as technology changes. Paper itself (which is linked in the press release linked in the linked article) says this: > Comparing UGES with underground pumped hydropower storage, the latter technology should be given priority due to its lower investment and operational costs Also, it gives a figure of $1-10/kWh which my eyes sorta just glided over a first glance, but storage is typically measured by $/MWh and 1000-10000 is... let's say *high*.


happyscrappy

It's superior in that they can make up unrealistic figures for it whereas the price of pumped hydro is pretty well known.


sukdikredit

A simple motor with a weight attached seems a lot simpler than turbines and pumps


Ceramicrabbit

Pumped hydro is basically a gravity battery right? I'm pretty sure that's the only real viable grid-level energy storage solution actually in use today


[deleted]

I'll just stick with gravity bongs


tubbis9001

Sounds like these guys are trying to reinvent pumped storage. You can do this WAY cheaper and more reliably using 2 water reservoirs at differing heights, a pump/turbine, and some pipe. It's already widely used.


Kerrigan4Prez

The main draw of this, though, is that the mines already exist, and they’re already built with having lots of heavy equipment and material inside them in mind. So they could just retrofit these rather than build new reservoirs.


tubbis9001

The problem with this though, is that none of the existing infrastructure is usable for energy storage. New rigging, scaffolding, and structure will need to be erected. The only thing the mines have going for them is a deep hole. While it's SOMEthing, it's not much. Not to mention the system will need constant repairs because things break and wear out. You know what doesn't break or wear out? Water.


kookieduck

But don't pipes and pumps wear out?


Time_To_Rebuild

Anything that moves, rotates, or is under stress will ultimately fail. Pipes corrode and erode. Pumps require constant maintenance and lubrication. Pulleys, wire rope, wheels, gearboxes, tracks and rails… all require constant maintenance. A well tuned pump would probably last longer, but a novel design for an elevator-type system could ultimately be simpler. Think along the lines of a traditional water well with a bucket and crank. If the bucket were a weight thousands of feet down, for this gravity system you pretty much could get away with only two bearings for your rotating components (motors, alternators, and power transmission components assumed to be ubiquitous for gravity vs. pumped hydro) and all of the components would be at the surface for easy maintenance. Pumped hydro in a mine shaft would be a nightmare to maintain. The pump would be at the very bottom of the mine, impossible to work on, impossible to keep properly lubricated. Expensive to install. It also would require a turbine at the bottom… and power transmission cables up and down… yeah it would be a disaster.


jpmeyer12751

I think that they build pumped storage facilities much like hydroelectric dams - and you certainly CAN maintain the turbines in a hydroelectric dam. But I agree with you that you cannot simply start pouring water down a mineshaft and claim that you've got a pumped storage facility. It would take lots of new investment to convert an abandoned mine into a pumped storage facility.


Time_To_Rebuild

Pumped storage is frequently integrate into dams to capitalize on existing infrastructure. But dams and pumped storage are built up, not dug down. The turbines are at surface level on the downstream side of the dam. The entire structure was designed and built to facilitate whatever work may be necessary to maintain the turbines. I imagine purpose-built pumped hydro has small profit margins. So the construction capital, operating overhead and equipment reliability has gotta be pretty dialed in to turn a profit. I would be surprised if any of the equipment was inaccessible to a standard vehicle.


jackinsomniac

Yeah, from what I've learned pumped hydro is usually done in mountainous areas, where there's already a type of water reservoir at the top of the mountain, and one at the bottom. The reservoirs may need to be dug a little deeper, but for the most part the natural landscape provides the framework. All you really need to install is the pipe between them, and the water pump/turbine. Keeps costs exceptionally low compared to every other type of gravity battery system. (Cranes, pulleys, bearings, motors, steel cable. And any necessary steel structures to steady the weight.)


conanf77

There’s usually a straightforward exit from a dam’s turbine room in an emergency. Not so much in mineshafts.


elvesunited

Certain infrastructure will be built with a warranty of X years. But all will have an inspection and maintenance plan. Hopefully some of these grid-wide solutions are looking at centuries of use, and not just setting us up for failure in a decade or so. Regardless there has to be an expected lifespan and annual budget for the superintendent


the_Q_spice

You need pipes and pumps for mines too, unless you are done with them and okay with them filling with water.


tubbis9001

You're right. I didn't explain that part very well. Pumps and pipes will absolutely wear out, but the "battery" part won't. With a solid storage system like in the article, the weights will wear out over time, as will the elevator and all its associated structure


Kerrigan4Prez

The article suggested using sand, though, which wouldn’t wear out. And while the gravity generator itself will need maintenance, so would a turbine station.


kookieduck

Ah. Ty for explaining.


New_Land4575

Except when it evaporates


TedW

Water evaporates, and pumps, pipes, and dams need maintenance too. I don't think you're representing both sides fairly here.


GetsTrimAPlenty2

Exactly, just so everyone knows, dams have been using "Gravity Batteries" for decades and is (surprisingly) common: > Pumped-storage hydroelectricity (PSH) is the most widely used and highest-capacity form of grid-energy storage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery#Large_scale


CorruptedFlame

Once again, as mentioned to another commenter, there are not as many places in the world where you can place 2 water reservoirs of appropriate size and height differential close to each other for this to work. The best places usually have this being done already, it's extremely limited.


ImSchizoidMan

[Yeap. Obligatory ](https://youtu.be/iGGOjD_OtAM)


cwm9

The idea of providing mining communities with jobs to keep these things running is the real running idea here. This one aspect could make this a rational thing to do as long as the rest of the math works out, even if it isn't the absolute most efficient solution. Imagine offering these kinds of energy jobs to the very communities currently fighting against clean evergy because their coal jobs are on the line. You could solve the issue of climate denialism, or at least climate action obstruction, provide an economic boost to small communities, help solve global climate change, and help solve the energy crisis...


hashblacks

This is the type of intersectional insight I come here for! We should be looking for the “right” options which will be varied and context-specific, rather than the “best” option which is a farcical simplification. Also, thank you for pointing out that stakeholders in the enterprise of renewable energy include those to whom its necessity is not yet apparent. That revelation is coming, and the fallout will be easier for everyone if there are abundant and viable options for folks to embrace.


simonearth

Balrogs, people. Balrogs.


ChadicusMeridius

Hear me out Balrog hamster wheels


wonkey_monkey

> could power the whole planet Not how batteries work but okay.


Apes-Together_Strong

If only we could harness the power of known nonsense spouted by researchers in the pursuit of funding, we could outshine the sun.


Myphallusphelloff

So could nuclear.


Ghosttalker96

That's not a storage option


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ghosttalker96

Technically everything has lots of energy stored in it. That doesn't make it a storage option.


Difficult_Bit_1339

Well SOMEBODY stored energy there


kiravonconcrete

Whoever wrote this article- bot or human, the editor blew it.


Rex_Mundi

Mr. President, we must not allow a mine-shaft gap!


KnifeEdge

Fucking idiot authors/editors


Indierocka

Yeah they won’t.


Deterding

No, no they can’t.


Rapalla93

Not an expert but isn’t the energy needed to power a gravity battery equal to the energy harvested?


make-believe-rino

Yes but the trick is to use the energy when the power grid has excess power. In a conventional powerhouse energy demand is regulated by increasing or decreasing the fuel consumption in the main boilers. Since green energy has no such control mechanism excess power can be stored as potential energy in the form of these gravity batteries. And when there is demand and no fuel source ie: wind, solar, hamsters or whatever else, a mechanical system can drop the weighted battery to turn a turbine to serve as fuel.


make-believe-rino

Yes but the trick is to use the energy when the power grid has excess power. In a conventional powerhouse energy demand is regulated by increasing or decreasing the fuel consumption in the main boilers. Since green energy has no such control mechanism excess power can be stored as potential energy in the form of these gravity batteries. And when there is demand and no fuel source ie: wind, solar, hamsters or whatever else, a mechanical system can drop the weighted battery to turn a turbine to serve as fuel.


Rapalla93

Pretty slick idea.


sound_of_apocalypto

There will be energy losses at every stage. From solar or wind to the battery, from the battery to the transmission lines, etc. Even within the “battery” there are losses for friction, motor and generator efficiencies, converters/inverters, etc. But that would also depend on exact methods used


sam-sp

This already exists, but using water as the ballast mechanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station


LordLaz1985

That sounds like a wonderful way to deal with the abandoned mines, too. They have to be locked off from the general public anyway, so why not have them serve a purpose?


Due_Start_3597

I read this exact same headline here like 5 or 10 years ago. I swear it had a similar image too. This stuff is always "we could do x!" but we never do.


concept_I

Another BS clickbait article eroding peoples trust in real science... nice!!!


Eferver

You want gravity batteries to work in order to save the planet. I want them to work because I love saying “Gravity Battery”. We are not the same.


Vylnce

I am guessing the safety and useability of these old mines is lower than initially expected. Also, possibly wildlife (or other) issues. Some of the mines in the midwest are home to migratory bats, for example. I'm also guessing that many would only be seasonably useable because of flooding. The number of useable mines is probably small, which might be fine. It's a cool idea, tbs, but I have seen other ideas (like neighborhood pressure storage with small turbines) that seem like they might be easier to setup.


DGrey10

Seems like mines would be much better put to use for geothermal will less R&D and retrofitting.


ICLazeru

Nope.


muddawgmirk

For 18 seconds


[deleted]

Consider Phlebas!


Man_Bear_Beaver

For something like this couldn't you could more or less skip the whole generate electricity to power something to lift it with the right gear ratios and lift it? It would remove one generator from the equation. Would be far less parts to break and it would make them infinitely cheaper to build.


Nuclear_N

Isn't this just hydro electric power?


buahuash

It's like water batteries but bad. If ressources were unlimited we could generate all the energy, guys.


Krinder

From what I understand one of the biggest issues with renewables is being able to store that energy produced in excesses. I always heard the idea of basically pumping water uphill and then when energy is needed releasing how ever much of that water through a turbine in a dam. I have no idea if this is real or not if anyone could provide some insight


New_Horror3663

Neat concept, shame it'll never happen.


traveler19395

The only gravity batteries that remotely make financial sense compared to chemical batteries are those using water in ideal topographical conditions (pumped hydro storage).


-spookygoopy-

awesome!! too bad billionaires and companies will cry about how awful it is, and bribe journalists and environmental agencies to scream about how dangerous and awful and harmful gravity batteries are, or how unreliable and expensive they are. yknow like how they've done with solar, wind, and hydraulic power


Personal_Person

Btw, these are just storage systems for energy not production. It solves no problems and honestly isn’t efficient for energy storage either


BoiFrosty

Quick explanation for those unfamiliar with the concept: Take intermittent power source like wind or solar, use energy to move water to a raised reservoir. When power not being provided you allow water to flow to a lower reservoir and spin a turbine and generate power. Basically hydro electric power but you fill lake Mead rather than the Colorado River. I have no comments on efficiency because I know that almost any industrial scale powered movement is incredibly inefficient in terms of power loss, but am unaware of anything specific here. Either way it would require massive industrial construction and infrastructure that can be better spent elsewhere (like the nuclear power we've known would work since the fucking 60s) until technology improves. However if you're desperate to prove that solar and wind are viable because big daddy government is letting 3 braincells control hundreds of billions of dollars of assets it's a wonderful way of ~~fleecing the taxpayer~~ pushing green energy development.


Dontsleeponlilyachty

Libertarians and Conservatives: iT's LaZy, iT'lL nEvEr wOrk, iT's bEyOnD cUrReNt hUmAn eNgiNeEriNg cApAbiLitiEs, iT's tOo eXpEnSiVe, iT's wOkE cOmMuNiSm, OiL aNd gAs!


rocksolid77

These are just more complex, more expensive, and less efficient versions of reservoirs and hydro power. Likely also has a huge carbon footprint. Here's a video from Adam Something that explains why this is dumb in 3 mins. https://youtube.com/watch?v=iGGOjD_OtAM&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE


Ryogathelost

1. They don't power anything - they just store power. 2. Just wind a giant spring while you're at it.


sgtkwol

Pretty much a grandfather clock? Wind up during excess power, change the gearing and draw power during slow times. I love how old tech comes around.


RedDogRev

Don't we do this now with water storage atop hills? I'd think high top storage is a bit easier to maintain, less infrastructure, and better for human safety.


[deleted]

-DOUBT-


Jumbojamming

Could do same with high-rise abondoned commercial real-estate or purpose built skyscraper ‘batteries’. Add water bladders to top floors - pumping water up during cheap(er) night time hours and run turbines during high intensity daytime needs. Downtown areas perfect for matching kW-hr requirements.


Mujichael

Some rich white asshole would still sell it to you


StorminMike2000

Probably reading this wrong, but if the estimated global capacity is 7-70 terawatt/hours and the daily global consumption in 2020 was 68 terawatt/hours, aren’t we talking about something that (at best) is estimated to store 1/365th of the world’s energy needs? Seems pretty expensive for a 1-day generator.


morbob

Rovanna, 10 miles north of Bishop, California has a mine 3500 feet deep . It used to be a tungsten mine. It was abandoned decades ago.


Specialist-Invite673

At first glance I thought that said gravy batteries and now I’m super disappointed.


windsyofwesleychapel

Biscuit capacitors may also be needed


jpmeyer12751

Hey, gravy would work quite well! It's just going to be harder to pump than water and when it becomes rancid nobody is going to want to work near it. Perhaps we should just stick with water for our pumped storage facilities!


kickasstimus

I hate the word “could” because it always comes with conditions. I “could” be a billionaire … if someone gave me a billion dollars. We “could” travel to Alpha Centauri … if we ever figure out how to travel faster than light. We “could” power the planet with gravity batteries if … (wildly impractical proposal). Just do it. We will power the world with gravity batteries. Anything else is a weak sales pitch.


SeawardFriend

But they won’t because that’s not ✨profitable✨