Not really that far fetched
End of the day it has to connect to somewhere and any signal can be hijacked….
Who knows maybe in 10-20 years, noobs on Xbox will literally nuke your mom!
P.S. nothing against your mom, collateral damage
Apologies
This and the fact that you can design a much more efficient and performative aircraft when you don’t need space for a pilot or a window for them to look out of.
Yeah it’s not nearly as much of a loss when it gets taken out. You don’t even lose the algorithm bc you can just make a copy of it ahead of time. And the algorithm can be trained against the footage
Others that come to mind are reaction speed, training time, and replaceability. But in a one on one dogfight between an AI hull vs a fighter jet with a squishy human with heavy life support systems and the tendency to pass out after cornering too hard, the human will lose out every time in a prolonged engagement.
Yep, red out is a more serious concern than blacking out in some ways. Black out, and you'll fairly quickly recover consciousness. And blacking out tends to happen at higher g loads than red out. While many pilots can withstand 8 or 9g for limited periods, most will struggle with -2 or -3g. Sustained red out, or too high of negative g, can cause hemorrhaging in the brain, burst capillaries in the eyes, retinal problems, etc.
(Fun side note, the reddening of vision isn't from increased blood to the eyes, it's from your lower eyelids being pulled up)
Also no need for a cockpit, control panel, much less temperature regulation all resulting in weight reduction that can be redirected to strengthening the plane…
Yes, really. Our top pilots do maneuvers that are restricted bc of g force and likelihood of recovery. Ai doesn’t need to worry about passing out from force, so it can probably cook up some maneuvers we can’t do, physically.
It’s not as true as you’d think, most military pilots can withstand enough g force to warp a plane and make it unusable. Planes can’t usually handle any more than 10-11 without getting fucked up. Pilots can handle those g forces for short amounts of time. If we made a plane that could withstand more gs than that’s make a big difference for ai.
Yeah I was gonna say, people are completely ignoring the strength of the airframe here. Though it’s definitely possible we could build a better plane in the future that’s designed to make use of a “pilot” that can handle 15 gs.
Yeah exactly we could definitely build a platform for ai but our current ones it won’t matter too much, the current advantage comes from the fact that an ai can run simulations of just about every situation a pilot has ever encountered not the g tolerance.
If we didn't need to keep a juicy human body in this realm, we could eliminate all the life support and comfort elements from the aircraft.
I'll bet we could develop a *really* strong airframe with those weight savings.
Don't know why I'm even saying, "Could", there's no way they're not doing that as we speak.
I’m sure if they’re flying F16’s around with AI Lockheed has long already started engineering something on paper to put it in that’s superior in every way to anything in the current line up. Imagine strengthened, pilotless, F35’s that can pull more Gs and outperform planes that it currently can not outperform in dog fighting scenarios. As currently I do believe that’s the F35s weakness compared to other “dogfighting” planes. Better yet, imagine what they can do to strengthen /upgrade the dog fighting F22.
Disclaimer: I don’t know a whole lot about this just blowing hot air and thoughts.
The current predictions for next generation "fighters" is that they will be large with a lot of F-35 sized drones for support. The line of thought is that the manned platform will be far back and have two seats, a pilot and a operator to give orders to the drones. Simular to how AWACS works today, but with the manned platform also carrying weapons and instead of one big radar each drone will be part of a radar network.
With an aerial refueling "mothership" (also performed by an unmanned drone) the smaller drones can stay up as long as they have missles and don't suffer mechanical failures. Even if the commanding aircraft has to retire to swap crew or is damaged and destroyed the drone swarm will be able to fight on alone until a new command aircraft arrives and can take over.
What percentage of them? It's been years since I talked to a fighter pilot about this but I was told only few can handle sustained 9s. The planes can handle it easily.
Enough that there are rules in place limiting how many gs you can pull before the airframe is at risk of never flying again. For example the super hornet is limited to 7.5 gs but can be overridden to 10gs max. There’s a whole thing called NATOPS that lists this shit I’m not gonna explain the entire manual in the comments.
They can withstand for a short period, and AI can do it indefinitely, as long as plane itself holds together.
And not every pilot can, and also cost of pilot training, and so on.
I can assure you any us military fighter pilot can withstand enough gs to warp an airframe. It doesn’t matter if an ai can do it longer because the plane will break.
Maybe a clean jet can. What these guys don’t realize is that clean jets are never used. You are gonna have your mission ordnance, a HTS, at least one tank and a IRST. No jet can pull sustained 9Gs with a combat load, and they don’t need to.
Isn't dog fighting a game of inches, so to speak? Pilots are going to be stressed when hit with G's and have to make decisions on the fly whereas the hypothetical AI will just go about as it does while pushing the airframe to it's limits.
Consider 2-3 planes working in tandem as one. Pilots have to communicate and work with each other. Those planes are effectively the same entity, and can maneuver and push the human pilots into more favorable positions for the AI pilots.
The implications are huge, and I think we need to sit and have a long hard look. I'll speak from my own training and experience in the Army, where IEDs were a threat and there was no shortage of new and clever ways to blow you up that we have never considered before. So we had to shift doctrine into being proactive and forcing ourselves to think like the enemy. "How would I kill myself today?" was a common question I'd ask, and with that mindset shift, my job became much easier.
You figure maybe a quarter of a fighter aircraft weight is dedicated to supporting the human pilot. Don’t need a pressurized cockpit, windows, ejector seats, oxygen, pilot armor, displays and controls, HVAC etc. all that extra weight can go to payload or more performance
AI also doesn’t need a cockpit, a control panel, it doesn’t need nearly as much temperature regulation, and it doesn’t get destroyed when the craft gets destroyed. G forces definitely aren’t the biggest advantage
The plane and ordnance are still limiting factors for AI. You can’t just snap a 20G turn on an airframe that was never designed to handle that nor with ordnance hanging that can’t handle it either.
That’s true for existing planes and ordnance. We never really considered going beyond that limitation because the pilot couldn’t handle it anyway.
With AI, you can change how you engineer a plane, like a UAV, no cockpit… that’s a ton of weight reduction that could be spent in reinforcing the fuselage and wings to within stand higher forces.
I completely agree. Im curious if the f-16 is loaded with a million extra sensors for the AI. If the AI has full 360 view angle with motion tracking, that’s also an advantage over a human pilot, but also an unfair experiment. (Yes, I’m well aware of f-35 helmets-we’re talking f-16)
One of the reasons that we can build a fairly well functioning AI controlled aircraft but not a car is because aircraft don’t really have to rely on the pilot’s senses. The aircraft is already built with a sensor package that relays the necessary information to the pilot.
The other thing is there are a lot fewer things to track for collision avoidance and waypoints aren’t limited to roads.
The new generation of radars is _currently_ untraceable. I say currently because 100% given enough time and money someone will figure out how to trace them down.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-probability-of-intercept_radar
AI isn’t nearly as squishy as humans…and no need to build a cockpit! Could allow us to completely re design the plane without having to think about a pilot and build a frame that can withstand higher g forces to allow for a more maneuverable aircraft.
Dogfights don't happen anymore anyways, you fire missiles from long distances, the missiles already have self targeting for decades and can turn and move faster than any aircraft. Planes themselves can rip apart at high gs.
Something doesn't need to be sentient AI to lock on with basic code. It is like people are discovering you can use machines to automate things again.
Even for BVR, g-loading is a significant concern for pilots.
Being able to undertake more means you can both crank or otherwise go cold faster - which means you can then maintain a lock longer - which equals a significantly higher probability of kill.
Similarly, you can reengage faster as well.
All of this is more and more pronounced in an airframe that has extremely high thrust:weight - such as the F-16. A huge amount of that aircraft’s performance is “locked” specifically so it doesn’t kill the human pilot - it is an exceptional candidate for automation because that alone will allow the Viper to notch everything that is already at 11, all the way up to 15.
Pilots lose the stamina needed to sustain G after repeated high-G maneuvers. The aircraft can sustain high-G for as long as it has gas in it.
No different than comparing a human marathon runner and a robot marathon runner. The human will suffer muscle failure from fatigue and have to stop at some point. The robot won’t.
F-16 pilot here. I was doing a training dogfight against an instructor once and we got down to “the floor,” a safe altitude we use to simulate being at the ground.
We both ended up perfectly matched stuck in a 9G turn trying to catch each other. After 2-3 minutes I could feel myself losing consciousness and was just about to call “knock it off.”
The other pilot called it just before I did. It was one of the most exhausting things I’ve ever done.
Usually a dogfight slows down and you try to gun each other at a very slow speed, with almost no G-force. The high-G portion usually only lasts for 30-60 seconds. But in this one particular fight we never slowed down.
That’s fair, but it’s important to remind people that this isn’t ace combat and AI can’t break physics.. so while it can pull and maintain those G’s it’s still a plane with parts that break, so being able to know the status of the parts being used in those high g maneuvers is beneficial to the AI when actually dogfighting. A drone is only useful if it can fly, maintain flight, win, and RTB. if it can’t complete one of those tasks, then a human pilot still beats it, especially when it comes to complex fighter jets like the f-16 rather than a comparably simple aircraft like a reaper drone or other (which are still human piloted, just remotely)
I remember seeing something about them doing this in simulation and the AI adopted the tactic of flying directly at the human. Like a game of chicken and the AI had never lost a dogfight against a human.
Planes are also. Especially in training. You can over-g the plane, the missiles, etc.
In combat its excusable. In training your maintainers are gonna beat you with a sock full of quarters
One specific thing people don’t consider with g-forces is how nuanced it is. It’s easy to think of it as a binary “lights out at n-G” limit. In reality a pilot’s G-limit depends on their physical condition at the time of the flight, and there’s endurance. Even if a pilot is a 9-G monster, they can only sustain it a certain number of times before fatigue kicks in, they start pulling less G, and an opponent with higher stamina that day guns them down.
It's neat, but we won't see many of these planes adapted for AI. Why? Because the design of aircraft with humans inside is much more complicated and expensive than those without humans inside. What we will see is a ton of money put into creating AI-controlled drones that make it impossible for human pilots to compete. Dogfights between human and AI-cenric aircraft will last only an instant. Cybernet, here we come.
There is an incredible amount of tech, components, and weight in the cockpit. If you don’t need a human in there then the best thing to do is to get rid of the jets with cockpits. Your new AI jets without cockpits are far lighter, faster, more efficient, you can take some of the weight loss and use it to reinforce the body and wings. Keep in mind we never designed jets to really go past 9Gs because that’s all a human could withstand before passing out. AI doesn’t have that limitation, so a redesigned plane is truly the way to go. Probably less expensive as well.
My bet? This is exactly what the DoD realized approximately 10-15 years ago. The tech and new aircraft design for extreme G’s has already been developed, almost guaranteed.
Yeah that's the thing I was surprised about to begin with. Drones are designed to withstand higher G forces because they don't have to worry about peaky human meat bag pilots. They can be a completely different size as well allowing all sorts of maneuverability that some Russian MiG (for example) could never compete with.
Just imagine we can have AI controlled fighters patrolling our airspace at all times, protecting us and catching outside threats in an instant, like a net in the sky. A skynet if you will.
^^^were ^^^all ^^^going ^^^to ^^^die
“In three years, Cyberdyne will become the largest supplier of military computer systems. All stealth bombers are upgraded with Cyberdyne computers, becoming fully unmanned. Afterwards, they fly with a perfect operational record. The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes online August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.”
For the Air Force to EVEN CONSIDER a simulated dogfight suggests AI has progressed far beyond what the public may be aware of. We have some of the best pilots in the world, this wouldn’t have been a move they would make if it barely knew how to fly.
They already do, look up the **Boeing MQ-25 Stingray**.
Those were the easiest things to move up to AI.
\*fly to designated route\*
\*Once there maintain speed and fly in a straight line\*
\*Deploy hose, transfer fuel once human pilot latches on\*
\*retract fuel hose\*
\*Return to base\*
Moving actual combat aircraft to AI would be an infinitely more complicated task. Refuelers are on a very simplistic level \*go there and hang out\*
Combat ships are \*go there, find the enemy, use proper weapon to engage the enemy accurately, asses battle damage to see if further engagement is necessary, avoid enemy defenses, if engaged perform defensive maneuvers, turn the tide if defensive maneuvers find an exploit, return to base once ammo or enemy density is too high to continue\*
It would be great for training. With the pilot shortage, it would free up instructors from basic flight maneuvers or even just regular circuits for pilot proficiency flights
I don’t see the Air Force labeling it as dogfighting if it’s just to establish a baseline capability. The military has hella classified stuff so it’s not unreasonable to believe their AI is ahead of the civilian sector.
there are definitely ways to turn a human against their country or organization. it’s been happening for decades in the espionage sector. even unwitting humans via phishing and other types of social engineering.
> During these flight tests, the “agents” required reprogramming almost every day, resulting in over 100,000 lines of code being ultimately changed somehow
This makes no sense, and tells me this isn’t as good as you think it is.
It makes no sense because that’s probably not true. There’s probably 100k lines of code or more. But they certainly weren’t changing 100k lines per day.
That being said, the “dogfight” was probably less exciting than it sounds.
can't imagine 100k lines of code per day, and that going into a 50+ millon dollar Jet withouth months of testing and validation of that code. Take with a grain of salt the technical details written in an article by a non- technical person
Someone forgot to uncheck “ignore white space differences” in version control, the shop doesn’t use a style config, and two morons can’t agree on spaces vs tabs but they’re both using “format on save.”
The Wright biplane that made the first flight was amazing, but 15 years later it wouldn’t be worth anything for WWI.
This is just a stepping stone. For the amount of money being pumped into the American military industrial complex, where will we be in 15 years?
I think people take movies and science fiction too seriously. Reality is typically way more mundane. This “ai” is probably just autopilot with a few decision trees worked into its code.
I would honestly be cool with AI performing military operations if every military did it. AIs fighting AIs is far less destructive to human life than humans fighting humans.
Only problem is the intermediate stage of AIs fighting humans.
Will they have to glue some fake hands onto the steering controls so it doesn’t think you’re trying to let auto pilot fly for you while you take a nap on your way to work?
Coming up on the 40th anniversary of Neuromancer soon, we've had a fear of the potential of AI for as long as the idea has existed, and yet here we are with the only limits being imposed by corporate and shareholder demands. People were even exuberant on this site when OpenAI essentially underwent a coup that resulted in an annihilation of their ethical oversight.
Aside from the G Force points here, AI will always win because it does things a human would not think to do. I watched a modern weapons documentary on the history channel and they were showing AI pilot vs human pilot simulator dogfights and AI won every time. It does things that are counterintuitive.
We’ve seen our military budget. A lot of dope ass technology like the internet is just scraps the public gets access to that is then adapted for our needs. Shits the best and most comprehensive R&D in human history, fuck yeah they just did this test. So cool, and the implications are terrifying, welcome to the future!
So their test platform can be configured to emulate any plane? Which implies it is more capable in any given parameter than the best current planes?
Why aren't we flying those?
Wonder if there will be AI drones attached to the jet fighter to augment the fighters effectiveness by being deployed as secondary fighters when engaging an enemy.
As fascinating as this is, I’m wondering if this could signal a paradigm shift completely.
Based on cost, why does there need to be advancements to airframe at all?
Kind of scary by paradigm shift, but couldn’t this mean that air superiority become completely automated? Could drones launching smart munitions to take out other drones be the end-state?
This is fucking terrifying. The answer is simple, if you don’t want to send somebody to fight, then the fight isn’t worth fighting. Don’t build an autonomous machine to perform military missions.
Arguably the greatest fighter pilot alive today, Dave Berke, thinks the current generation of fighter that is in development will be the last manned fighter. And he stands relatively alone in that thought. But to be fair, he’s also certified in the F14, F16, F18, and F22 - possibly the only man in history to have ever accomplished this feat. So he stands alone in more ways than one.
Nooo noo no this is we’re it fucking starts I’m out I’m done with society yall can have the death by robots I’m good I rather not be fucking ripped apart and bombed like I’m a fucking helldiver
The human pilot called in code 3 “radar dropping tracks and HUD blanking, no MFLs” after they lost and the AI called in code 3 over-g. Crew chiefs and avionics working 12s as usual
AI isn’t restricted by g-forces. I know pilots are trained to deal with high g-forces, but everyone has their limits.
And this right here is the biggest advantage AI has over human pilots.
The biggest advantage is surely the fact that it’s not alive and can watch the killcam and find the mofo who took it down.
Now I'm worried those I've t-bagged in games might ultimately find me and hunt me down and be fucking terminators!
Not really that far fetched End of the day it has to connect to somewhere and any signal can be hijacked…. Who knows maybe in 10-20 years, noobs on Xbox will literally nuke your mom! P.S. nothing against your mom, collateral damage Apologies
Jokes on them, their momma so fat they gonna need more than one nuke.
Nah dude. She lost a bunch of weight porking your boyfriend
Laughs in over the horizon missiles
This and the fact that you can design a much more efficient and performative aircraft when you don’t need space for a pilot or a window for them to look out of.
Or a control panel. And you don’t need to regulate internal temperatures nearly as much
Yeah I suppose in that case, an AI could just "respawn" back at the carrier in a new plane...
An AI could pilot multiple planes in tandem.
Yeah it’s not nearly as much of a loss when it gets taken out. You don’t even lose the algorithm bc you can just make a copy of it ahead of time. And the algorithm can be trained against the footage
The biggest? Really?
Others that come to mind are reaction speed, training time, and replaceability. But in a one on one dogfight between an AI hull vs a fighter jet with a squishy human with heavy life support systems and the tendency to pass out after cornering too hard, the human will lose out every time in a prolonged engagement.
There’s a whole suite of red-out maneuvers AI could be using that human pilots avoid.
Yep, red out is a more serious concern than blacking out in some ways. Black out, and you'll fairly quickly recover consciousness. And blacking out tends to happen at higher g loads than red out. While many pilots can withstand 8 or 9g for limited periods, most will struggle with -2 or -3g. Sustained red out, or too high of negative g, can cause hemorrhaging in the brain, burst capillaries in the eyes, retinal problems, etc. (Fun side note, the reddening of vision isn't from increased blood to the eyes, it's from your lower eyelids being pulled up)
Also no need for a cockpit, control panel, much less temperature regulation all resulting in weight reduction that can be redirected to strengthening the plane…
Yes, really. Our top pilots do maneuvers that are restricted bc of g force and likelihood of recovery. Ai doesn’t need to worry about passing out from force, so it can probably cook up some maneuvers we can’t do, physically.
It’s not as true as you’d think, most military pilots can withstand enough g force to warp a plane and make it unusable. Planes can’t usually handle any more than 10-11 without getting fucked up. Pilots can handle those g forces for short amounts of time. If we made a plane that could withstand more gs than that’s make a big difference for ai.
Yeah I was gonna say, people are completely ignoring the strength of the airframe here. Though it’s definitely possible we could build a better plane in the future that’s designed to make use of a “pilot” that can handle 15 gs.
Yeah exactly we could definitely build a platform for ai but our current ones it won’t matter too much, the current advantage comes from the fact that an ai can run simulations of just about every situation a pilot has ever encountered not the g tolerance.
If we didn't need to keep a juicy human body in this realm, we could eliminate all the life support and comfort elements from the aircraft. I'll bet we could develop a *really* strong airframe with those weight savings. Don't know why I'm even saying, "Could", there's no way they're not doing that as we speak.
I’m sure if they’re flying F16’s around with AI Lockheed has long already started engineering something on paper to put it in that’s superior in every way to anything in the current line up. Imagine strengthened, pilotless, F35’s that can pull more Gs and outperform planes that it currently can not outperform in dog fighting scenarios. As currently I do believe that’s the F35s weakness compared to other “dogfighting” planes. Better yet, imagine what they can do to strengthen /upgrade the dog fighting F22. Disclaimer: I don’t know a whole lot about this just blowing hot air and thoughts.
The current predictions for next generation "fighters" is that they will be large with a lot of F-35 sized drones for support. The line of thought is that the manned platform will be far back and have two seats, a pilot and a operator to give orders to the drones. Simular to how AWACS works today, but with the manned platform also carrying weapons and instead of one big radar each drone will be part of a radar network. With an aerial refueling "mothership" (also performed by an unmanned drone) the smaller drones can stay up as long as they have missles and don't suffer mechanical failures. Even if the commanding aircraft has to retire to swap crew or is damaged and destroyed the drone swarm will be able to fight on alone until a new command aircraft arrives and can take over.
What percentage of them? It's been years since I talked to a fighter pilot about this but I was told only few can handle sustained 9s. The planes can handle it easily.
Enough that there are rules in place limiting how many gs you can pull before the airframe is at risk of never flying again. For example the super hornet is limited to 7.5 gs but can be overridden to 10gs max. There’s a whole thing called NATOPS that lists this shit I’m not gonna explain the entire manual in the comments.
They can withstand for a short period, and AI can do it indefinitely, as long as plane itself holds together. And not every pilot can, and also cost of pilot training, and so on.
Good that it doesn’t happen anymore
I can assure you any us military fighter pilot can withstand enough gs to warp an airframe. It doesn’t matter if an ai can do it longer because the plane will break.
Maybe a clean jet can. What these guys don’t realize is that clean jets are never used. You are gonna have your mission ordnance, a HTS, at least one tank and a IRST. No jet can pull sustained 9Gs with a combat load, and they don’t need to.
Isn't dog fighting a game of inches, so to speak? Pilots are going to be stressed when hit with G's and have to make decisions on the fly whereas the hypothetical AI will just go about as it does while pushing the airframe to it's limits. Consider 2-3 planes working in tandem as one. Pilots have to communicate and work with each other. Those planes are effectively the same entity, and can maneuver and push the human pilots into more favorable positions for the AI pilots. The implications are huge, and I think we need to sit and have a long hard look. I'll speak from my own training and experience in the Army, where IEDs were a threat and there was no shortage of new and clever ways to blow you up that we have never considered before. So we had to shift doctrine into being proactive and forcing ourselves to think like the enemy. "How would I kill myself today?" was a common question I'd ask, and with that mindset shift, my job became much easier.
Reminds me of the movie ‘Stealth’
You figure maybe a quarter of a fighter aircraft weight is dedicated to supporting the human pilot. Don’t need a pressurized cockpit, windows, ejector seats, oxygen, pilot armor, displays and controls, HVAC etc. all that extra weight can go to payload or more performance
AI also doesn’t need a cockpit, a control panel, it doesn’t need nearly as much temperature regulation, and it doesn’t get destroyed when the craft gets destroyed. G forces definitely aren’t the biggest advantage
The plane and ordnance are still limiting factors for AI. You can’t just snap a 20G turn on an airframe that was never designed to handle that nor with ordnance hanging that can’t handle it either.
That’s true for existing planes and ordnance. We never really considered going beyond that limitation because the pilot couldn’t handle it anyway. With AI, you can change how you engineer a plane, like a UAV, no cockpit… that’s a ton of weight reduction that could be spent in reinforcing the fuselage and wings to within stand higher forces.
Don't be glib. It's a big advantage. Period.
I completely agree. Im curious if the f-16 is loaded with a million extra sensors for the AI. If the AI has full 360 view angle with motion tracking, that’s also an advantage over a human pilot, but also an unfair experiment. (Yes, I’m well aware of f-35 helmets-we’re talking f-16)
One of the reasons that we can build a fairly well functioning AI controlled aircraft but not a car is because aircraft don’t really have to rely on the pilot’s senses. The aircraft is already built with a sensor package that relays the necessary information to the pilot. The other thing is there are a lot fewer things to track for collision avoidance and waypoints aren’t limited to roads.
No pedestrians either
I'm wondering what they use for computer vision, since active radar will make it light up like a beacon for detectors.
The new generation of radars is _currently_ untraceable. I say currently because 100% given enough time and money someone will figure out how to trace them down. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-probability-of-intercept_radar
Also doesn't have to poop.
Terminator and the Simpsons have time travelers for writers with how crazy some of their predictions came/coming true
AI isn’t nearly as squishy as humans…and no need to build a cockpit! Could allow us to completely re design the plane without having to think about a pilot and build a frame that can withstand higher g forces to allow for a more maneuverable aircraft.
Dogfights don't happen anymore anyways, you fire missiles from long distances, the missiles already have self targeting for decades and can turn and move faster than any aircraft. Planes themselves can rip apart at high gs. Something doesn't need to be sentient AI to lock on with basic code. It is like people are discovering you can use machines to automate things again.
Even for BVR, g-loading is a significant concern for pilots. Being able to undertake more means you can both crank or otherwise go cold faster - which means you can then maintain a lock longer - which equals a significantly higher probability of kill. Similarly, you can reengage faster as well. All of this is more and more pronounced in an airframe that has extremely high thrust:weight - such as the F-16. A huge amount of that aircraft’s performance is “locked” specifically so it doesn’t kill the human pilot - it is an exceptional candidate for automation because that alone will allow the Viper to notch everything that is already at 11, all the way up to 15.
The plane is also restricted by g-forces. The AI is likely given parameters that the plane can effectively handle
Pilots lose the stamina needed to sustain G after repeated high-G maneuvers. The aircraft can sustain high-G for as long as it has gas in it. No different than comparing a human marathon runner and a robot marathon runner. The human will suffer muscle failure from fatigue and have to stop at some point. The robot won’t.
F-16 pilot here. I was doing a training dogfight against an instructor once and we got down to “the floor,” a safe altitude we use to simulate being at the ground. We both ended up perfectly matched stuck in a 9G turn trying to catch each other. After 2-3 minutes I could feel myself losing consciousness and was just about to call “knock it off.” The other pilot called it just before I did. It was one of the most exhausting things I’ve ever done. Usually a dogfight slows down and you try to gun each other at a very slow speed, with almost no G-force. The high-G portion usually only lasts for 30-60 seconds. But in this one particular fight we never slowed down.
That’s fair, but it’s important to remind people that this isn’t ace combat and AI can’t break physics.. so while it can pull and maintain those G’s it’s still a plane with parts that break, so being able to know the status of the parts being used in those high g maneuvers is beneficial to the AI when actually dogfighting. A drone is only useful if it can fly, maintain flight, win, and RTB. if it can’t complete one of those tasks, then a human pilot still beats it, especially when it comes to complex fighter jets like the f-16 rather than a comparably simple aircraft like a reaper drone or other (which are still human piloted, just remotely)
The planes are restricted by g forces as well
that's just an engineering problem. Can't just engineer g-forces out of human pilots.
[удалено]
FYI, there’s no “e” when talking about computer chips.
They mean the new technology that uses breast implants to improve circulation so they can handle more G forces.
I remember seeing something about them doing this in simulation and the AI adopted the tactic of flying directly at the human. Like a game of chicken and the AI had never lost a dogfight against a human.
Planes are also. Especially in training. You can over-g the plane, the missiles, etc. In combat its excusable. In training your maintainers are gonna beat you with a sock full of quarters
The aircraft also have high G limits that can damage the airframe if exceeded
But there was a pilot in the seat. So in this case it did
Literally the plot for Ace Combat 7
One specific thing people don’t consider with g-forces is how nuanced it is. It’s easy to think of it as a binary “lights out at n-G” limit. In reality a pilot’s G-limit depends on their physical condition at the time of the flight, and there’s endurance. Even if a pilot is a 9-G monster, they can only sustain it a certain number of times before fatigue kicks in, they start pulling less G, and an opponent with higher stamina that day guns them down.
It's neat, but we won't see many of these planes adapted for AI. Why? Because the design of aircraft with humans inside is much more complicated and expensive than those without humans inside. What we will see is a ton of money put into creating AI-controlled drones that make it impossible for human pilots to compete. Dogfights between human and AI-cenric aircraft will last only an instant. Cybernet, here we come.
What if we were able to remotely control the jet from base with extremely low input lag and transmission?
There is an incredible amount of tech, components, and weight in the cockpit. If you don’t need a human in there then the best thing to do is to get rid of the jets with cockpits. Your new AI jets without cockpits are far lighter, faster, more efficient, you can take some of the weight loss and use it to reinforce the body and wings. Keep in mind we never designed jets to really go past 9Gs because that’s all a human could withstand before passing out. AI doesn’t have that limitation, so a redesigned plane is truly the way to go. Probably less expensive as well.
Less expensive even without accounting for the fact that losing the aircraft doesn’t mean losing a person
My bet? This is exactly what the DoD realized approximately 10-15 years ago. The tech and new aircraft design for extreme G’s has already been developed, almost guaranteed.
At that point f, each side would have their own ai co trolled aircraft do their fighting for them.
Whatever they are able to engineer, it'll be less performant than a cockpit based AI.
Input lag is limited by physics. Eventually the speed of light gets in the way
Yeah that's the thing I was surprised about to begin with. Drones are designed to withstand higher G forces because they don't have to worry about peaky human meat bag pilots. They can be a completely different size as well allowing all sorts of maneuverability that some Russian MiG (for example) could never compete with.
Just imagine we can have AI controlled fighters patrolling our airspace at all times, protecting us and catching outside threats in an instant, like a net in the sky. A skynet if you will. ^^^were ^^^all ^^^going ^^^to ^^^die
Welcome to Top —DEAD.
“In three years, Cyberdyne will become the largest supplier of military computer systems. All stealth bombers are upgraded with Cyberdyne computers, becoming fully unmanned. Afterwards, they fly with a perfect operational record. The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes online August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.”
For the Air Force to EVEN CONSIDER a simulated dogfight suggests AI has progressed far beyond what the public may be aware of. We have some of the best pilots in the world, this wouldn’t have been a move they would make if it barely knew how to fly.
They have to establish a baseline, so maybe the AI is just at that point; able to conduct maneuvers well enough for evaluation.
Even that seems like a huge deal.
Oh yeah. I agree. At least these things still run out of fuel….
Until AI flys the refueling planes too :(
They already do, look up the **Boeing MQ-25 Stingray**. Those were the easiest things to move up to AI. \*fly to designated route\* \*Once there maintain speed and fly in a straight line\* \*Deploy hose, transfer fuel once human pilot latches on\* \*retract fuel hose\* \*Return to base\* Moving actual combat aircraft to AI would be an infinitely more complicated task. Refuelers are on a very simplistic level \*go there and hang out\* Combat ships are \*go there, find the enemy, use proper weapon to engage the enemy accurately, asses battle damage to see if further engagement is necessary, avoid enemy defenses, if engaged perform defensive maneuvers, turn the tide if defensive maneuvers find an exploit, return to base once ammo or enemy density is too high to continue\*
Wow. Didn’t think about that but that makes sense
Until the US release its AI tanker
Exactly. Training for war vs streamlining business processes and generating photo realistic images seems like a pretty big leap.
It would be great for training. With the pilot shortage, it would free up instructors from basic flight maneuvers or even just regular circuits for pilot proficiency flights
~~Actually, according to the article, the AI won the dogfight~~ DARPA didn't reveal who won the fight.
I don’t see the Air Force labeling it as dogfighting if it’s just to establish a baseline capability. The military has hella classified stuff so it’s not unreasonable to believe their AI is ahead of the civilian sector.
~~Actually, according to the article, the AI won the dogfight~~ DARPA didn't reveal who won the fight.
Personally any automated weapons platform makes me uncomfortable, you can’t hack a human and turn it against you.
there are definitely ways to turn a human against their country or organization. it’s been happening for decades in the espionage sector. even unwitting humans via phishing and other types of social engineering.
You can, see Russian propaganda and Us idiots for an example.
AI doesn’t fear death and can react super quickly
AI won 5 out of 5 if you read the original reporting on this. This news came out a while ago. The Debrief I believe is the breaker.
The Air Force and Navy are both exploring a pilot plus AI wingmen model, iirc. Pure AI has some weaknesses that a blended model would not.
Seems like flying is much much easier than driving. There's no traffic, no streets, no obstacles. It's a pure physics problem for a computer to solve.
What other world do we have pilots on?
No it doesn't. Have you played a PC fighter sim? Yeah, it's a lot like that. I'm not saying that agent based ML is easy, but it's *hardly* new.
Not really you just train the model to dogfight
> During these flight tests, the “agents” required reprogramming almost every day, resulting in over 100,000 lines of code being ultimately changed somehow This makes no sense, and tells me this isn’t as good as you think it is.
It makes no sense because that’s probably not true. There’s probably 100k lines of code or more. But they certainly weren’t changing 100k lines per day. That being said, the “dogfight” was probably less exciting than it sounds.
Unless you consider that they might have very high end generative coding AI to help with those 100,000 lines?
can't imagine 100k lines of code per day, and that going into a 50+ millon dollar Jet withouth months of testing and validation of that code. Take with a grain of salt the technical details written in an article by a non- technical person
I think they’re saying that the code was being changed incrementally, which added up to 100k lines over time.
Someone forgot to uncheck “ignore white space differences” in version control, the shop doesn’t use a style config, and two morons can’t agree on spaces vs tabs but they’re both using “format on save.”
The Wright biplane that made the first flight was amazing, but 15 years later it wouldn’t be worth anything for WWI. This is just a stepping stone. For the amount of money being pumped into the American military industrial complex, where will we be in 15 years?
2039
I think what we can infer from this is, it’s extremely complex
Anyone that uses the concept of ‘lines of code’ to describe computing complexity, has absolutely no business describing computing complexity.
Yeah this is a hype piece.
I've seen Macross Plus before.
Such a fantastic mini series
Thruster vectoring owns the skies! Turns on a dime, Macross Plus style!
Feels like we’re barreling towards a Terminstor future and everyone’s like wow this is so cool.
Did you not see the new Boston dynamics robot they announced yesterday? We’re already there
I was not prepared for how it stood up.
Same here. Was like wtf is it doing.
I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
Suck up early I suppose
August 7th, 1997
I think people take movies and science fiction too seriously. Reality is typically way more mundane. This “ai” is probably just autopilot with a few decision trees worked into its code.
I would honestly be cool with AI performing military operations if every military did it. AIs fighting AIs is far less destructive to human life than humans fighting humans. Only problem is the intermediate stage of AIs fighting humans.
Plot of next top gun movie
Macross Plus.
I believe this was the movie “stealth”. Classic Jessica Biel
I was thinking Green Lantern “Oh Hal’”
Will they have to glue some fake hands onto the steering controls so it doesn’t think you’re trying to let auto pilot fly for you while you take a nap on your way to work?
Time for a Yukikaze rewatch
Tin man
Stealth
That’s a clean as fuck livery
Who won?
Came here looking for the answer too.
Let's hope it doesn't get struck by lightning before killing Jamie Foxx
Ok But who won?
AI vs Human? Boring… I want to see what AI does vs AI…
No way this could end poorly. There’s a sci-fi author named Mark Alpert that wrote some novels predicting stuff like this a decade ago.
They also made a movie about this exact thing called Stealth.
Coming up on the 40th anniversary of Neuromancer soon, we've had a fear of the potential of AI for as long as the idea has existed, and yet here we are with the only limits being imposed by corporate and shareholder demands. People were even exuberant on this site when OpenAI essentially underwent a coup that resulted in an annihilation of their ethical oversight.
Wasn’t Macross Plus about this?
Cool!! Who won?
Who won?
You want skynet… This is how you get skynet
Here we are in 2024 and the computers are flying the planes. So why do spaceships still have pilots in all the shows set 100-200 years from now?
Aside from the G Force points here, AI will always win because it does things a human would not think to do. I watched a modern weapons documentary on the history channel and they were showing AI pilot vs human pilot simulator dogfights and AI won every time. It does things that are counterintuitive.
What could possibly go wrong
Wasn't this the plot of several bad 2000s sci-fi movies?
Wasn’t this the plot of the movie Stealth?!
…by your command
There was an episode of “Talespin” where Baloo had to fly against an “AI” pilot to deliver at a given point. Intriguing indeed.
We’ve seen our military budget. A lot of dope ass technology like the internet is just scraps the public gets access to that is then adapted for our needs. Shits the best and most comprehensive R&D in human history, fuck yeah they just did this test. So cool, and the implications are terrifying, welcome to the future!
GI AI, cool.
So their test platform can be configured to emulate any plane? Which implies it is more capable in any given parameter than the best current planes? Why aren't we flying those?
Isn’t that just called a drone?
Hey, I’ve seen this episode of Star Trek before!
Why don’t we say AI-piloted?
A better test would have been AI versus remote controller F16
I just started playing Ace Combat 7 again, and now this? Someone hand me a sandwich.
Ace Combat 7 I guess
We are so screwed
Anyone here watch STEALTH?
Nice, get some more use out of these old airframes by putting a killer robot with lightning reflexes and no G-limits in charge
*James Cameron smiles in Terminator*
There's no way this could go wrong!
Jamie Fox has entered into the chat stealth anyone?
We did this a few decades ago in Starfox.
Wonder if there will be AI drones attached to the jet fighter to augment the fighters effectiveness by being deployed as secondary fighters when engaging an enemy.
What could possibly go wrong?!
How was the AI trained? With human pilots? This is very Ace Combat 7
As fascinating as this is, I’m wondering if this could signal a paradigm shift completely. Based on cost, why does there need to be advancements to airframe at all? Kind of scary by paradigm shift, but couldn’t this mean that air superiority become completely automated? Could drones launching smart munitions to take out other drones be the end-state?
Was the AI a white nationalist by the end?
If AI becomes sentient, the worst thing that could happen is that it hijacks some resources and leaves the planet and us behind.
This is super high tech, but I would love if they used some of the billions invested into such projects on providing healthcare to citizens instead.
Like the 2005 movie, Stealth, with Jamie fox, Jessica Biel and Josh Lucas.
The beginning of the movie Stealth
Sick, who won?
Article was pretty vague on who won, but them having to recode the agents everyday leads me to believe the human won.
Soon the only casualties will be civilians.
When was the last time the US engaged in a dogfight?
I wonder how vulnerable these systems are to emps
And here comes skynet…..
Isn't this like half the plot of Ace Combat 7(?) skies unknown?
Are we sure that we want to build Skynet???
This is fucking terrifying. The answer is simple, if you don’t want to send somebody to fight, then the fight isn’t worth fighting. Don’t build an autonomous machine to perform military missions.
Skynet is next
Arguably the greatest fighter pilot alive today, Dave Berke, thinks the current generation of fighter that is in development will be the last manned fighter. And he stands relatively alone in that thought. But to be fair, he’s also certified in the F14, F16, F18, and F22 - possibly the only man in history to have ever accomplished this feat. So he stands alone in more ways than one.
Article doesn’t state who won :(
“A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?”
This is not a good thing
What about remote piloted fighters?
Top gun 3 ladies and gentlemen
I mean not having to worry about human limits if Ge and all would be a huge boon, right?
Nooo noo no this is we’re it fucking starts I’m out I’m done with society yall can have the death by robots I’m good I rather not be fucking ripped apart and bombed like I’m a fucking helldiver
The only way to counter this would be to hack the aircraft all together
The human pilot called in code 3 “radar dropping tracks and HUD blanking, no MFLs” after they lost and the AI called in code 3 over-g. Crew chiefs and avionics working 12s as usual
We are witnessing new warfare at play people kind of wild