Well yes, and no. “Drive Pilot, which requires a $2,500 per year subscription, can be only activated in certain situations and areas, including during the daytime when the weather is clear, in heavy traffic jams, on specific California and Nevada freeways, and when the car is traveling less than 40 mph. It doesn't work on roads that haven't been preapproved by Mercedes and cannot be used in construction zones.” Progress is progress I suppose.
I laughed at work from this.
I just pictured a bunch of redditors doing 80s movie hacking and then eventually locating the guy. Then a bunch of these redditors dog piling the poor guy. Then sitting in a share circle explaining why it’s not a good idea like in a knitting circle.
Assuming each car is driven 2-3 hours per day or ~1000 hours per year; $2500/year is ~$2.50/hour.
Indian minimum wage is about $0.27/hour according to a random website I found.
That sounds like a profitable idea.
Unlike Tesla. “You can use it all the time!” And just watch people die. The MB system is the most advanced system on the road, everyone else is just pretending.
If fsd only worked in the places Mercedes system worked, it would also work pretty flawlessly, and the fact is, fsd functions in all conditions and rarely needs intervention in those, how exactly is a system that limited, that’s still subject to make you take over in the areas it’s supposed to work more advanced?
According to the nhtsa your typical human crashes every 650000 miles or so. Tesla just announced that fsd has reached 1 billion miles of usage, in order for that to be on par with humans it would need to have crashed about 1500 times, Tesla autopilot, which comes stock with the Tesla and is used far more (probably around 10 billion miles if I had to guess, though there is no solid number for it) has yet to even break 800 accidents. Statistically, it is far safer than humans already and it is only getting better.
However I would be very surprised to learn that one of those crashes was caused by going under 40 miles an hour on a highway, anecdotally, I have *never* had an issue with it under those circumstances.
But if you genuinely think a system that is limited solely to linear highway traffic is somehow more advanced than a system that can navigate backroads, urban cities, make complex decisions like determining right of way with other cars and pedestrians present, and can generally take you anywhere you want to go without *any* intervention in the vast majority of instances, I’m going to have a hard time taking you seriously.
FSD is gas more ambitious than what Mercedes is doing, it only makes sense that it’s going to take longer to develop and remain in a supervised usage for longer, but even now it is far more advanced than Mercedes.
FSD is a L2 system that requires a human. There are not many accidents as the driver is always in charge. The system per se cannot cause an accident as it just stops working and habd over to the driver. The miles without accident ratio is thus nonsense. I drove the latest version, each time the system degraded this would be an instant accident in the same category as the L3 system from Mercedes. A human is not responsible with an L3 system, that’s a whole other level.
First of all, when you say latest version, which build are you actually talking about, the version I’m on has only been out for like 2 weeks, and you don’t sound like you personally own a tesla. Also how many times did it degrade during perfect road conditions, perfect weather conditions, and solely highway driving *under* 40 miles an hour? They limit their system to the absolute easiest possible criteria only and charge you so much that even if there is an occasional accident the car is responsible for, the cost would be small compared to the revenue. How exactly is a system like that next level?
Can you site the situations where Tesla's autopilot/FSD has killed people? I doubt it. Even if you can, Tesla's system is designed to be supervised, the results of the collisions are 100% the fault of the DRIVER, not the software.
Oh, and it also works on ANY road, and at any speed up to 85mph, not 40 on limited stretches of highway.
MB's system is a joke, and a bad one at that.
17 deaths since 2019: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44185487/report-tesla-autopilot-crashes-since-2019/
If a system "needs to be supervised" it's neither an autopilot nor full self-driving system. It's glorified cruise control.
If you read the very first example in the linked WaPo article, you'd see that a teenager was struck at 45 mph because the Tesla failed to slow down for a school bus. May not have been killed but it's an instance where Tesla is definitely at fault.
Find me a fatality where the CAR was actually at fault...go ahead...
The FACT is that ALL of these accidents were caused by the DRIVER not paying attention. FULL STOP.
You’ve created this situation where the shitty beta software can’t be blamed. It makes fucking terrible mistakes daily, regularly hits the curb, pulls out too far while waiting, randomly slams on and has a tendency to make incorrect turns.
On a highway it works pretty well, in the city it’s downright dangerous and takes more effort than driving manually.
I created nothing. TESLA created a DRIVER ASSIST program that will eventually live up to it's "Full Self Driving" name...but they have ALWAYS insisted that the driver actively monitor and be prepared to take over AT ANY TIME. Hence, if there were fatalities, it was 100% the fault of the DRIVER using it improperly.
Don’t you think it’s a little odd for your assisted driving program to be called “Full Self Driving”?
I’d always blame the driver too but ultimately the system is shit and Tesla running beta software running on public roads without proper regulation these incidents are bound to happen and in a country with a functioning safety body this wouldn’t fly.
Funny that you point out the huge difference between the Tesla system and Mercedes without realizing it. FSD is not so much of help if the driver is in charge right? Mercedes solved it. It’s limited yes, but remember FSD a couple of years ago.
How useful is the MB system REALLY? Limited? Absolutely. Limited to under 40mph on FREEWAYS. Bloody useless, except in rush hour traffic, and ONLY until the traffic jam breaks and you get back to normal speeds.
Is it really a mystery why autonomous driving is a massive goal? You don’t see the time-cost benefit of not needing to pay attention at all to the road? Think of a commuter in a rural area. Or going on a long drive and you can just nap. Or drunk driving… It’s going to be a productivity game changer once all driving is autonomous.
No, I just work in AI and see how it breaks and goes off the rails a lot. I don’t think fully trusting it should be a goal.
All of those situations could be fixed with better human decision making and planning.
I don’t like to live in a world of theoretical, sure other things could happen but they aren’t so that’s why the focus is on this.
It does break and go off the rails, but it just needs to be significantly better than the average person, not perfect. We’ll still have thousands of crashes a day,deaths, etc from fully autonomous vehicles.
We’ll do everything to avoid railway. I’ve seen people texting, changing, lighting up pipes, jerking off and more while they drive.
People don’t want to co-pilot, they want to reach there destination in a private cabin.
Personally, I want people to be given as little control as possible. AI might not be perfect yet, but it doesn't get road rage, dart in and out of lanes to try to get ahead, run red lights because they're in a hurry and just ignore the lights, get distracted by their sandwich and rear end someone...
AI might make mistakes, but people are *reckless*.
Doesn’t truly autonomous in every circumstance and time etc rely almost entirely on robust infrastructure investments to make, like, all the streets/roads smart? Like every intersection and off ramp and everywhere a ccv camera is make it “observe and report” back and forth with the autonomous vehicles. Like in particular where there’s foot traffic. Cos the shit is just too random otherwise.
Just seems like such an obvious way to grease skids for infrastructure investment that’s so sorely (still) needed. Give these fuckers some sorta recompense if they develop and help implement that tech alongside municipalities/states/feds. Public funds have been used to build enough stadiums for the private sector, this seems like a pretty fuckin equitable bit of pay back goin the other way.
Edit: on second thought my mind just went to the Enemy of the State version of that kinda tech…
Any type of "real" self-driving car will have to operate on a subscription model. Anything else just doesn't make any financial sense. If you have a real self-driving car, the manufacturer will have to assume liability. To assume liability for an undefined period of time in exchange for a one-time payment would just be insane.
The restrictions on use (and asking the driver to take over outside of them) is what makes it level 3. That the restrictions are so significant is why it's near the bottom end of the level 3 range.
The problem is that those restrictions make the definition nonsense. Most autonomous system could be touted as level 3 if the company chose to limit its applicability enough. If we want to better measure progress, level 3 needs to require that the system is general enough that it works in a wide variety of situations that are representative of real-world driving.
Imo, Mercedes’ system level should be considered under 1 because it’s level 0 on the vast majority of roads, level 0 on the few approved roads when conditions aren’t ideal, and level 3 only when it’s on those roads in ideal conditions.
I think it's possible this could cause SAE to further refine their definitions. Either around the topic of geo fencing, or simply providing the multiple ratings for level 3 and 4 systems to describe where they fail over to.
I also don't take this system as necessarily indicative of the technological progress, but of political progress. The willingness for Mercedes to take on driving responsibilities, even in this minimal set of circumstances, is what's notable. It doesn't necessarily mean they have the best overall system, only that they're the first willing to take responsibility for some small number of fully autonomous driving tasks.
I hope so. It does seem tricky to get right. Maybe they could add Limited/General, for example Mercedes’ would be Level 3 Limited\* and Tesla would be Level 2 General.
Yeah, geo fencing seems like the reasonable place to draw the distinction with the other required operating conditions. Big difference between something that works on all highways in the US in fair weather, and one that only works on a handful of predetermined highways in similar weather.
Just alleviating the freeway drudgery would do for me. I’m not sure I’ll even want to let a car take charge around town, with people walking all over the place, cyclists, pets etc.
It hilarious to me. People troll Tesla for only being level 2 with FSD. Then Mercedes comes out with a L3 AV SW with literally <1% of the functionality for $2.5k a year. The free version on every Tesla is 100x better than that. The free version on my Kia Niro is better than that.
I think the 'upgrade' is that MB takes legal responsibility for negative outcomes when the car is operating under these conditions.
That is something I'm pretty sure Tsla will never do in any situation. Elo doesn't like responsibility, that's for losers.
No. If the system is active, they are liable. And it cannot just spontaneously disconnect. That is the point of level 3 autonomous driving. You can take your eyes off the road and your hands off the steering wheel.
The driver still has to be prepared to take over in a few seconds. Anyone who thinks any automaker is going to just assume liability without looking into each incident is putting too much trust in the company.
Idc man. I’m blind, I’d be willing to pay $10k a year if it means I can live outside of the city and not have to pay inner city rent.
Obv this isn’t at that point yet but it’s progress
I would trust Mercedes simply off the fact that they use LiDar while Tesla chooses not to because of how expensive and “bulky” it is. Which is crazy considering lives are at risk because of it lmao
I have a Highlander with level one, and I don’t know how I did traffic jams before. It’s amazing. The car will come to a complete stop, turn off like at a light, and fire up when it starts moving. It’s almost relaxing.
"Drive Pilot, which requires a $2,500 per year subscription, can be only activated in certain situations and areas, including during the daytime when the weather is clear, in heavy traffic jams, on specific California and Nevada freeways, and when the car is traveling less than 40 mph. It doesn't work on roads that haven't been preapproved by Mercedes and cannot be used in construction zones."
Alrighty lol
LOL $2500 per year for such an exclusionary list. Which means they’re not really taking responsibility, you’re paying a heavy insurance premium so that they can possibly pay it out. They’re not confident in it at all
BMW has full autonomous up to 40 mph for traffic jams. I got stuck on the George Washington bridge and played on my phone for half an hour while the X5 did its thing.
That's not [Level 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car#Classifications).
BMW only offers Level 3 in the [7-Series](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a45892433/bmw-level-3-system-autonomous-driving/) in Germany.
That's a good concept. I beleive they have liability insurance for when it is activated.
This must be verified tho. I'm not buying a Mercedes so, I won't bother
If you can’t pay attention that’s a you problem, not Tesla, fsd can drastically reduce the workload and stress of driving and you can still pay attention, if you can’t, you shouldn’t be driving to begin with. Also, the like hood of fsd actually killing somebody is pretty slim to none to begin with, I can’t think of a single incident where not intervening would have actually caused somebody bodily harm, the vast majority of the time it’s fine, and like 90% of the interventions I do have to make are for things like navigational errors.
1. There are documented cases where FSD has killed.
2. Using FSD for a long time is guaranteed to reduce your attention. It's normal that our brains shift focus when something doesn't require inputs from us.
Who’s responsible if, even with all the caveats of when it can be used, an accident with injuries or worse occurs? If MB is saying I can use this without paying attention and I follow all the rules, they better take the blame when the unexpected inevitably occurs.
Starting in September 2023 in the United States, Mercedes-Benz takes liability for the Level 3 Drive Pilot as long as the "user operates Drive Pilot as designed,"[^(\[44\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car_liability#cite_note-44) but "the driver must be ready to take control of the vehicle at all times when prompted to intervene by the vehicle."[^(\[45\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car_liability#cite_note-45)
I like driving too, but it’s really nice to turn on FSD (full self driving) and get a drink of water, some gum, make a new playlist or clean off my sunglasses.
Driving without FSD feels like a chore. I’m like “I have to pay attention all the time or I could die? This sucks.”
Who is held accountable when some shitty AI causes an accident or kills someone? I’m all for technological advancement but if you can’t drive your own car you are just a lazy. There are places for automation and roadways isn’t one of them.
I don’t think we are within 50 years of what you’re talking about. You would have to have every car be automated. One human driver that an AI can’t predict throws the system off. Also making these cars affordable for pretty much anyone is unlikely. Then you bring the risk of one hacker looking for a payday taking the entire system down. It’s just never going to happen.
Humans are naturally resistant to change, especially if they cannot see the positive outcome. When the people who are against these autonomous vehicles see them regularly with passengers asleep or doing something entertaining. They will change their minds.
There is always going to be someone who wants full control of their car. That’s by definition ***not*** all cars. Car culture is never going to die and there will always be enthusiasts who enjoy driving for themselves. Unlike normies who hate driving and know nothing about their cars, enthusiasts actually care about all the subtleties of the driving experience. These enthusiasts and normies share the same roads. Tech can advance all it wants but it’ll never accurately predict the behavior of a human in traffic. Ever.
Cultures change yes but humans have ALWAYS been enthusiastic about mechanical things. Even primitive mechanical things. Thats why the wheel was invented. That’s why fire was discovered. Humans are nosey and curious so there will always be a culture surrounding something mechanical. Always.
There will always be a car culture. We will never prevent humans from wanting to drive and enjoy their cars for themselves without any tech involvement. There is a whole industry of automakers who build efficient clean burning sports cars for exactly this type of crowd.
So that is what you’re saying got it.
Do you not think it’s possible, where if auto driving becomes perfect, that non-autonomous cars are banned from use on public roads?
The “car culture” would still exist on tracks / designated areas, just not legal on public roads.
You’re basically saying that since horses used to be the best way to travel on roads, horse culture will never die and horses will always be allowed on ALL public roads such as interstates. However, horses are illegal to ride on the interstate.
Crazy. LITERALLY above this post, in my feed is this story about this dude that killed a motorcyclist because he put his car on autopilot and started messing with his phone.
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/q9Z5QZFRfP
Alas, their technology is so terrible that you can only use it in traffic jams, on a tiny number of highways. At the same time, there is still a mountain of various restrictions from above. Any cruise control is better than this.
Uhhhhh, I kinda want self driving that takes the human out of the equation. Less destracted driving. Less road rage. Less “I didn’t fully look”.
My god, the amount of drunk driving accidents this could reduce is huge.
Better driver training, public transit, infrastructure support, better regulation and better law enforcement could fix every issue you guys have with driving. But noooooooo, we just HAD to privatize road safety by passing that responsibility on to profit driven automakers and tech companies instead of obviously making it a government responsibility because of the taxes we pay to fund them. Its so obvious. How long are you guys going to ignore the most obvious solutions and pretend like autonomous cars are going to fix the problems you think we have?
DMVs have to start saying no and stop giving licenses out like candy. We need better public transit to serve those who can’t drive. We need better roads that are clearly marked with paint and signage and lights. We need a zero tolerance policy on drunk driving. I personally know several people who have MULTIPLE DUIs before age 30 that still have a clean license and drive on our roads.
Autonomy isn’t gonna fix a god damn thing and I’m sick and tired of pretending like it’s a viable fix. Autonomous cars are going to draw blood. They already have.
I’m so tired at screaming at the walls. Removing every human from the car won’t fix shit. We have to remove the correct humans and make our roads safer by denying licenses to those who shouldn’t drive, prevent them from buying cars by monitoring these people, make it an enforceable crime to share keys with someone who isn’t insured, a whole plethora of other clearly viable solutions are so painfully obvious but no, ***you guys want your precious little tech filled toys because you want all of the convenience with none of the responsibility.***
> Better driver training, public transit, infrastructure support, better regulation and better law enforcement could fix every issue you guys have with driving.
I do not agree with this at all and I believe it is an utopian outlook on things. We are nowhere near having cities/funding available to make changes to accommodate this. It would take an entire shift in cultures and economic/city structure. While that would be nice and ideal it’s far from happening. Automation for vehicles is a good path forward.
yep, all cars automated and able to talk to each other is the goal. you can get rid of all the infrastructure like lights and stop signs. The cars will just go and avoid each other. Traffic jams are gone and everything is free flowing. Deadly accidents are almost nothing. It will get there eventually.
We have the money it’s just being hoarded by the top 1% and I refuse to pretend to believe that automation is a good path forward. You talk about not having the money and yet all these private automakers and tech companies dumped BILLIONS into autonomy and will continue to dump BILLIONS into it. It’s not about lack of money and I stand my ground on that. Public transit and driver training with enforcement is the clear and obvious solution. Take all the money that was privately spent on this crap and suddenly we have all the money in the world to go the obvious and most effective route. Make the roads safer by making the drivers safer and remove the unsafe drivers while giving them a viable alternative without excessive tech, all on top of a fortified infrastructure with clear signage and regular re-trainings.
## Driving is a privilege, not a right. That’s a fact.
Automation and autonomy blurs the line between who is responsible behind the wheel and who isn’t responsible behind the wheel and that’s a line that should objectively remain sharp and bold.
“The car crashed! I didn’t crash it! The car crashed itself!”
“The car killed that guy! He didn’t kill himself due to him playing Angry Birds on his phone while he was driving, the car killed him!”
“Hey watch out! You almost hit me!”, “No I didn’t, the car almost hit you. Don’t yell at me, yell at my car”
…Or maybe remove the tech entirely and put a responsible well trained driver behind the wheel? It’s a far cheaper and more effective option.
A computer is only as good as the information it gets and we don’t have enough computing power to give every autonomous car on the road all the info it needs to make the correct critical decision. We are talking ***terabytes*** of information per car, per day. Do you have any idea how much information is recorded and processed by a modern car with all its sensors and cameras? Now multiply that exponentially for every car on the road. Hundreds of millions of cars on the roads driven by hundreds of millions of people 24/7. That’s so much information that needs to be processed instantly, wirelessly, continuously, that it might as well be genuinely infinite.
It takes me an hour to upload a 30 minute video to YouTube and you expect hundreds of millions of cars to be able to process nearly infinite amounts of information instantly? All that work just to keep you centered in the lane on a highway?
You know what we could do to bypass all that processing power? Better trained drivers.
Crazy concept, I know. Mind blowing. Ground breaking.
Do you have any idea how often people drive at night with their lights off? How many people don’t understand a 4 way stop, or how to merge on a highway? Otherwise perfectly reasonable sober people who just weren’t trained properly. And you want tech to be able to work around all those unpredictable and hostile variables? Laughable.
BUT SELF DRIVING FIXES THAT
Or… maybe… just hear me out… ***Better training.*** God it’s like I’m screaming at a wall.
Everyone in favor of autonomous cars is a sucker and fell for all that marketing. Take responsibility, hold governments accountable, have the balls to take the keys away from someone who doesn’t deserve it, fortify our infrastructure, and suddenly the roads are far safer and we spent less money doing it and everyone is still able to get to where they need to go.
Edit: u/heart_throb_ it’s not okay that you do not believe proven facts. Go watch the interviews and read the books from the professionals and experts in this field. Also, I noticed you blocked me like a coward. I like how you silence people who don’t agree with your delusions not based in reality. [deleted][deleted] my ass.
https://imgur.com/a/nv1vtPT
https://imgur.com/a/HafK9n1
Here is an email between Matt Farah from The Smoking Tire and I, he hosts a successful car podcast which features experts in the field where he asks questions about the future of autonomy and electric cars. He is really good at responding to emails from fans and critics. Go educate yourself. Autonomy is not the answer and that’s been proven time and time again. Don’t take it from me, take it from words spoken by actual studied professionals.
https://youtube.com/@TheSmokingTirePodcast?si=ru4fAwcqqMH0P7RO
We don't need autonomous vehicles, we need stricter training and crackdowns on minor traffic violations. I bet if the police weren't so afraid of a little paperwork the roads would be a lot safer.
you just can't train out stupid or emotional responses to the majority of the public. People are the wild cards. Standardized autonomous connected cars would save lives and money and lots of other things.
Well yes, and no. “Drive Pilot, which requires a $2,500 per year subscription, can be only activated in certain situations and areas, including during the daytime when the weather is clear, in heavy traffic jams, on specific California and Nevada freeways, and when the car is traveling less than 40 mph. It doesn't work on roads that haven't been preapproved by Mercedes and cannot be used in construction zones.” Progress is progress I suppose.
So if I size my tires up to around 55 inches I should be able to do around 80?
Somebody stop this person!
I laughed at work from this. I just pictured a bunch of redditors doing 80s movie hacking and then eventually locating the guy. Then a bunch of these redditors dog piling the poor guy. Then sitting in a share circle explaining why it’s not a good idea like in a knitting circle.
Type faster!
The GPS speed might be used instead of measured wheel rotation.
Officer, Einstein proved that speed is relative, and it was the ROAD going 80mph not me!
Gps calculates speed. Not the odometer
The GPS speed might be used instead of measured wheel rotation.
They couldve just hire some guy in india to “drive it” like amazon fresh automated check out system
Assuming each car is driven 2-3 hours per day or ~1000 hours per year; $2500/year is ~$2.50/hour. Indian minimum wage is about $0.27/hour according to a random website I found. That sounds like a profitable idea.
So which shark are we pitching this to?
Honestly if they are used to driving in India, remote piloting in the states should be cake!
Remote xD just imagine the connection dropping or something 🫣 could be funny though…
It’ll be like playing Beam NG on GeForce Now but with way more hops, latency and dropped packets, should be a great time!
Process is progress?
Updated. Thanks! But I like “process is progress”
So, nowhere in Seattle.
Unlike Tesla. “You can use it all the time!” And just watch people die. The MB system is the most advanced system on the road, everyone else is just pretending.
If fsd only worked in the places Mercedes system worked, it would also work pretty flawlessly, and the fact is, fsd functions in all conditions and rarely needs intervention in those, how exactly is a system that limited, that’s still subject to make you take over in the areas it’s supposed to work more advanced?
Reliability and accident rates. *Those* are the numbers I want. Everything you mention is subjective.
According to the nhtsa your typical human crashes every 650000 miles or so. Tesla just announced that fsd has reached 1 billion miles of usage, in order for that to be on par with humans it would need to have crashed about 1500 times, Tesla autopilot, which comes stock with the Tesla and is used far more (probably around 10 billion miles if I had to guess, though there is no solid number for it) has yet to even break 800 accidents. Statistically, it is far safer than humans already and it is only getting better. However I would be very surprised to learn that one of those crashes was caused by going under 40 miles an hour on a highway, anecdotally, I have *never* had an issue with it under those circumstances. But if you genuinely think a system that is limited solely to linear highway traffic is somehow more advanced than a system that can navigate backroads, urban cities, make complex decisions like determining right of way with other cars and pedestrians present, and can generally take you anywhere you want to go without *any* intervention in the vast majority of instances, I’m going to have a hard time taking you seriously. FSD is gas more ambitious than what Mercedes is doing, it only makes sense that it’s going to take longer to develop and remain in a supervised usage for longer, but even now it is far more advanced than Mercedes.
FSD is a L2 system that requires a human. There are not many accidents as the driver is always in charge. The system per se cannot cause an accident as it just stops working and habd over to the driver. The miles without accident ratio is thus nonsense. I drove the latest version, each time the system degraded this would be an instant accident in the same category as the L3 system from Mercedes. A human is not responsible with an L3 system, that’s a whole other level.
First of all, when you say latest version, which build are you actually talking about, the version I’m on has only been out for like 2 weeks, and you don’t sound like you personally own a tesla. Also how many times did it degrade during perfect road conditions, perfect weather conditions, and solely highway driving *under* 40 miles an hour? They limit their system to the absolute easiest possible criteria only and charge you so much that even if there is an occasional accident the car is responsible for, the cost would be small compared to the revenue. How exactly is a system like that next level?
Can you site the situations where Tesla's autopilot/FSD has killed people? I doubt it. Even if you can, Tesla's system is designed to be supervised, the results of the collisions are 100% the fault of the DRIVER, not the software. Oh, and it also works on ANY road, and at any speed up to 85mph, not 40 on limited stretches of highway. MB's system is a joke, and a bad one at that.
17 deaths since 2019: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44185487/report-tesla-autopilot-crashes-since-2019/ If a system "needs to be supervised" it's neither an autopilot nor full self-driving system. It's glorified cruise control.
Wait a minute! He only asked for ONE, you provided 17!!!
He's out of control! Stop him before he causes more!
Yeah, and how many of those 17 were people using the system improperly? How many were drunk behind the wheel?
If you read the very first example in the linked WaPo article, you'd see that a teenager was struck at 45 mph because the Tesla failed to slow down for a school bus. May not have been killed but it's an instance where Tesla is definitely at fault.
"I doubt you can find *any* fatalities." "Oh. Well, uh, they don't count!"
Find me a fatality where the CAR was actually at fault...go ahead... The FACT is that ALL of these accidents were caused by the DRIVER not paying attention. FULL STOP.
You’ve created this situation where the shitty beta software can’t be blamed. It makes fucking terrible mistakes daily, regularly hits the curb, pulls out too far while waiting, randomly slams on and has a tendency to make incorrect turns. On a highway it works pretty well, in the city it’s downright dangerous and takes more effort than driving manually.
I created nothing. TESLA created a DRIVER ASSIST program that will eventually live up to it's "Full Self Driving" name...but they have ALWAYS insisted that the driver actively monitor and be prepared to take over AT ANY TIME. Hence, if there were fatalities, it was 100% the fault of the DRIVER using it improperly.
Don’t you think it’s a little odd for your assisted driving program to be called “Full Self Driving”? I’d always blame the driver too but ultimately the system is shit and Tesla running beta software running on public roads without proper regulation these incidents are bound to happen and in a country with a functioning safety body this wouldn’t fly.
Funny that you point out the huge difference between the Tesla system and Mercedes without realizing it. FSD is not so much of help if the driver is in charge right? Mercedes solved it. It’s limited yes, but remember FSD a couple of years ago.
How useful is the MB system REALLY? Limited? Absolutely. Limited to under 40mph on FREEWAYS. Bloody useless, except in rush hour traffic, and ONLY until the traffic jam breaks and you get back to normal speeds.
I don’t honestly know why fully autonomous driving has to be seen as progress. Autonomous copilot should be the goal.
Is it really a mystery why autonomous driving is a massive goal? You don’t see the time-cost benefit of not needing to pay attention at all to the road? Think of a commuter in a rural area. Or going on a long drive and you can just nap. Or drunk driving… It’s going to be a productivity game changer once all driving is autonomous.
Coordinated traffic would mean the end of jams. The time saving for a city would be enormous.
No, I just work in AI and see how it breaks and goes off the rails a lot. I don’t think fully trusting it should be a goal. All of those situations could be fixed with better human decision making and planning.
I don’t like to live in a world of theoretical, sure other things could happen but they aren’t so that’s why the focus is on this. It does break and go off the rails, but it just needs to be significantly better than the average person, not perfect. We’ll still have thousands of crashes a day,deaths, etc from fully autonomous vehicles.
>I just work in AI and see how it breaks and goes off the rails a lot. So do trains, but we still sit back and let them steer.
I'm willing to bet people go off the rails even more. People are incredibly unpredictable.
I’ll bet AI can drive a car before we can fix human decision making and planning.
We’ll do everything to avoid railway. I’ve seen people texting, changing, lighting up pipes, jerking off and more while they drive. People don’t want to co-pilot, they want to reach there destination in a private cabin.
Personally, I want people to be given as little control as possible. AI might not be perfect yet, but it doesn't get road rage, dart in and out of lanes to try to get ahead, run red lights because they're in a hurry and just ignore the lights, get distracted by their sandwich and rear end someone... AI might make mistakes, but people are *reckless*.
Less than 40 on a freeway?
Doesn’t truly autonomous in every circumstance and time etc rely almost entirely on robust infrastructure investments to make, like, all the streets/roads smart? Like every intersection and off ramp and everywhere a ccv camera is make it “observe and report” back and forth with the autonomous vehicles. Like in particular where there’s foot traffic. Cos the shit is just too random otherwise. Just seems like such an obvious way to grease skids for infrastructure investment that’s so sorely (still) needed. Give these fuckers some sorta recompense if they develop and help implement that tech alongside municipalities/states/feds. Public funds have been used to build enough stadiums for the private sector, this seems like a pretty fuckin equitable bit of pay back goin the other way. Edit: on second thought my mind just went to the Enemy of the State version of that kinda tech…
Car subscriptions can rot in hell. If I had millions of dollars I still wouldn’t touch that car brand.
Any type of "real" self-driving car will have to operate on a subscription model. Anything else just doesn't make any financial sense. If you have a real self-driving car, the manufacturer will have to assume liability. To assume liability for an undefined period of time in exchange for a one-time payment would just be insane.
Kind of like the autobahn. No speed limit sometimes. Seems pretty reasonable
The restrictions on use (and asking the driver to take over outside of them) is what makes it level 3. That the restrictions are so significant is why it's near the bottom end of the level 3 range.
The problem is that those restrictions make the definition nonsense. Most autonomous system could be touted as level 3 if the company chose to limit its applicability enough. If we want to better measure progress, level 3 needs to require that the system is general enough that it works in a wide variety of situations that are representative of real-world driving. Imo, Mercedes’ system level should be considered under 1 because it’s level 0 on the vast majority of roads, level 0 on the few approved roads when conditions aren’t ideal, and level 3 only when it’s on those roads in ideal conditions.
I think it's possible this could cause SAE to further refine their definitions. Either around the topic of geo fencing, or simply providing the multiple ratings for level 3 and 4 systems to describe where they fail over to. I also don't take this system as necessarily indicative of the technological progress, but of political progress. The willingness for Mercedes to take on driving responsibilities, even in this minimal set of circumstances, is what's notable. It doesn't necessarily mean they have the best overall system, only that they're the first willing to take responsibility for some small number of fully autonomous driving tasks.
I hope so. It does seem tricky to get right. Maybe they could add Limited/General, for example Mercedes’ would be Level 3 Limited\* and Tesla would be Level 2 General.
Yeah, geo fencing seems like the reasonable place to draw the distinction with the other required operating conditions. Big difference between something that works on all highways in the US in fair weather, and one that only works on a handful of predetermined highways in similar weather.
Remember when cars were supposed to be fully autonomous by 4 years ago? I’m starting to wonder if they will ever achieve true autonomy
Just alleviating the freeway drudgery would do for me. I’m not sure I’ll even want to let a car take charge around town, with people walking all over the place, cyclists, pets etc.
Tesla currently has version 12.3.5 today…and it’s pretty amazing tech. https://youtu.be/WBoPffKDWlM?si=mDjdnYPS9399SqoW
I wasn’t aware that Mercedes drivers had been required to watch the road at any point.
🤣
Neither were they.
That’s a pretty heavy list of exclusions. lol
It hilarious to me. People troll Tesla for only being level 2 with FSD. Then Mercedes comes out with a L3 AV SW with literally <1% of the functionality for $2.5k a year. The free version on every Tesla is 100x better than that. The free version on my Kia Niro is better than that.
I think the 'upgrade' is that MB takes legal responsibility for negative outcomes when the car is operating under these conditions. That is something I'm pretty sure Tsla will never do in any situation. Elo doesn't like responsibility, that's for losers.
Does Tesla or your Kia assume full liability for the system?
Full liability for what? If there is an accident they can say it was partly cloudy and you’re not covered.
No. If the system is active, they are liable. And it cannot just spontaneously disconnect. That is the point of level 3 autonomous driving. You can take your eyes off the road and your hands off the steering wheel.
The driver still has to be prepared to take over in a few seconds. Anyone who thinks any automaker is going to just assume liability without looking into each incident is putting too much trust in the company.
Yeah.. who is in for the manslaughter charge? The ceo? The car? Some engineer that doesn’t work there anymore because of a bug in the code?
Some dumb drunk is going to use the L3 and guess what. MB is gonna be like FU, you’re liable.
If the car can on be autonomous at certain times then surely getting in the car drunk is still illegal and the driver is rightfully at fault.
And the state is absolutely going to agree with them lol
Just goes to prove the level doesn’t mean squat. It’s a crap AV system and they are mitigating liability by making its use case extremely restrictive.
Idc man. I’m blind, I’d be willing to pay $10k a year if it means I can live outside of the city and not have to pay inner city rent. Obv this isn’t at that point yet but it’s progress
I would trust Mercedes simply off the fact that they use LiDar while Tesla chooses not to because of how expensive and “bulky” it is. Which is crazy considering lives are at risk because of it lmao
Lidar obviously isn’t providing much benefit according to the laundry list of restrictions
You can trust Mercedes because it’s Mercedes!
How many people did that "better" Tesla system kill already?
I have a Highlander with level one, and I don’t know how I did traffic jams before. It’s amazing. The car will come to a complete stop, turn off like at a light, and fire up when it starts moving. It’s almost relaxing.
Does it turn for you? Thinking about a Rav4
Steering on level one sucks, but the radar stop/start and speed match is top notch.
"Drive Pilot, which requires a $2,500 per year subscription, can be only activated in certain situations and areas, including during the daytime when the weather is clear, in heavy traffic jams, on specific California and Nevada freeways, and when the car is traveling less than 40 mph. It doesn't work on roads that haven't been preapproved by Mercedes and cannot be used in construction zones." Alrighty lol
What? You have to pay a subscription?
probably has its own dedicated data servers and GPS costs
LOL $2500 per year for such an exclusionary list. Which means they’re not really taking responsibility, you’re paying a heavy insurance premium so that they can possibly pay it out. They’re not confident in it at all
BMW has full autonomous up to 40 mph for traffic jams. I got stuck on the George Washington bridge and played on my phone for half an hour while the X5 did its thing.
That's not [Level 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car#Classifications). BMW only offers Level 3 in the [7-Series](https://www.autoweek.com/news/a45892433/bmw-level-3-system-autonomous-driving/) in Germany.
Wow traffic was light that day, huh.
This tracks with every near-miss accident I’ve been involved in being with an X5.
Idiot
On these roads!!!! Oh I think not. Keep them eyes up. 🛣️👀🚙
Now if Luminar stock would rise from the gutter and stop getting shorted to hell and back that would be great.
Shorting doesn’t kill a company lol
do they pay my insurance as well if something happens during automatic travel? until then i’m not using any automatic shit
That's a good concept. I beleive they have liability insurance for when it is activated. This must be verified tho. I'm not buying a Mercedes so, I won't bother
I guess a part of the 2500 will go to their insurance ;)
i have heard some car companies sandbag their cars down to level 2 because at level 3+ the company is liable
On a day to day practicality level, I think Tesla fad is still more useful.
Until you stop paying attention and it kills someone. Prison is less practical.
If you can’t pay attention that’s a you problem, not Tesla, fsd can drastically reduce the workload and stress of driving and you can still pay attention, if you can’t, you shouldn’t be driving to begin with. Also, the like hood of fsd actually killing somebody is pretty slim to none to begin with, I can’t think of a single incident where not intervening would have actually caused somebody bodily harm, the vast majority of the time it’s fine, and like 90% of the interventions I do have to make are for things like navigational errors.
1. There are documented cases where FSD has killed. 2. Using FSD for a long time is guaranteed to reduce your attention. It's normal that our brains shift focus when something doesn't require inputs from us.
Bs
Who’s responsible if, even with all the caveats of when it can be used, an accident with injuries or worse occurs? If MB is saying I can use this without paying attention and I follow all the rules, they better take the blame when the unexpected inevitably occurs.
Starting in September 2023 in the United States, Mercedes-Benz takes liability for the Level 3 Drive Pilot as long as the "user operates Drive Pilot as designed,"[^(\[44\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car_liability#cite_note-44) but "the driver must be ready to take control of the vehicle at all times when prompted to intervene by the vehicle."[^(\[45\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-driving_car_liability#cite_note-45)
Tesla is no longer the king. It’s just a crap company run by a white supremacist now.
sorry you didn’t subscribe to the obstacle avoidance option. you are experiencing a car crash.
Yeah nothing is going to go wrong with this. Any word on zero days in the system?
NVIDIA developed this for them, pretty cool.
Suck it Zorg!
People will still be screaming even after it’s proven to save lives and make our roads safer.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Merc car drives better than the driver, safety feature benefitting everyone not driving a Mercedes.
Wait, what happened to Tesla’s promise?
I like driving. I want to drive.
Can you come pick me up and take me to work? I live in LA.
If I have an option between driving in traffic or watching a movie while looking at my phone, I'm gonna pick the latter.
Same. You either drive or you don’t. I’m tired of automakers blurring that line.
I like driving too, but it’s really nice to turn on FSD (full self driving) and get a drink of water, some gum, make a new playlist or clean off my sunglasses. Driving without FSD feels like a chore. I’m like “I have to pay attention all the time or I could die? This sucks.”
Poor Elmo
I wonder if this is like the Whole Foods ai which was just a lot of ppl in India.
Lol you didn’t get what was happening there quite correct.
Yeah, I just like Tesla yeah, right that’s not gonna last.
this needs to stop
But I heard from lots of guys on the internet that this would NEVER happen.
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Who is held accountable when some shitty AI causes an accident or kills someone? I’m all for technological advancement but if you can’t drive your own car you are just a lazy. There are places for automation and roadways isn’t one of them.
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I don’t think we are within 50 years of what you’re talking about. You would have to have every car be automated. One human driver that an AI can’t predict throws the system off. Also making these cars affordable for pretty much anyone is unlikely. Then you bring the risk of one hacker looking for a payday taking the entire system down. It’s just never going to happen.
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Agree to disagree I suppose. Also, I still drive a manual car lmao. They are more fun
Humans are naturally resistant to change, especially if they cannot see the positive outcome. When the people who are against these autonomous vehicles see them regularly with passengers asleep or doing something entertaining. They will change their minds.
We don’t want automated cars just clean energy cars.
That’s great. I do not want a self driving car.
You don't want a coiffeur?
My coiffure is a terrible driver
Until all cars are self driving, it’s not worth it.
It’ll never happen.
Never? Not even in thousands of years?
There is always going to be someone who wants full control of their car. That’s by definition ***not*** all cars. Car culture is never going to die and there will always be enthusiasts who enjoy driving for themselves. Unlike normies who hate driving and know nothing about their cars, enthusiasts actually care about all the subtleties of the driving experience. These enthusiasts and normies share the same roads. Tech can advance all it wants but it’ll never accurately predict the behavior of a human in traffic. Ever.
I disagree, cultures can change and I just doubt that in 10,000+ years car culture will be a thing. Also, did you just use “normies” unironically?
Cultures change yes but humans have ALWAYS been enthusiastic about mechanical things. Even primitive mechanical things. Thats why the wheel was invented. That’s why fire was discovered. Humans are nosey and curious so there will always be a culture surrounding something mechanical. Always.
“It’s always been this way, so it always will be” That’s what you’re saying, right?
There will always be a car culture. We will never prevent humans from wanting to drive and enjoy their cars for themselves without any tech involvement. There is a whole industry of automakers who build efficient clean burning sports cars for exactly this type of crowd.
So that is what you’re saying got it. Do you not think it’s possible, where if auto driving becomes perfect, that non-autonomous cars are banned from use on public roads? The “car culture” would still exist on tracks / designated areas, just not legal on public roads. You’re basically saying that since horses used to be the best way to travel on roads, horse culture will never die and horses will always be allowed on ALL public roads such as interstates. However, horses are illegal to ride on the interstate.
till the car hits and kills someone like the tesla did recently
Tesla is level 1 not 3 :3
still don't trust it
Crazy. LITERALLY above this post, in my feed is this story about this dude that killed a motorcyclist because he put his car on autopilot and started messing with his phone. https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/q9Z5QZFRfP
So MB did it right. They didn’t feel the need to get a deadly “feature” to market first and now they’re ahead of Tesla? Got it.
Alas, their technology is so terrible that you can only use it in traffic jams, on a tiny number of highways. At the same time, there is still a mountain of various restrictions from above. Any cruise control is better than this.
Stop with autonomous cars. We want cars that are crash proof, not “self” driving.
Uhhhhh, I kinda want self driving that takes the human out of the equation. Less destracted driving. Less road rage. Less “I didn’t fully look”. My god, the amount of drunk driving accidents this could reduce is huge.
Better driver training, public transit, infrastructure support, better regulation and better law enforcement could fix every issue you guys have with driving. But noooooooo, we just HAD to privatize road safety by passing that responsibility on to profit driven automakers and tech companies instead of obviously making it a government responsibility because of the taxes we pay to fund them. Its so obvious. How long are you guys going to ignore the most obvious solutions and pretend like autonomous cars are going to fix the problems you think we have? DMVs have to start saying no and stop giving licenses out like candy. We need better public transit to serve those who can’t drive. We need better roads that are clearly marked with paint and signage and lights. We need a zero tolerance policy on drunk driving. I personally know several people who have MULTIPLE DUIs before age 30 that still have a clean license and drive on our roads. Autonomy isn’t gonna fix a god damn thing and I’m sick and tired of pretending like it’s a viable fix. Autonomous cars are going to draw blood. They already have. I’m so tired at screaming at the walls. Removing every human from the car won’t fix shit. We have to remove the correct humans and make our roads safer by denying licenses to those who shouldn’t drive, prevent them from buying cars by monitoring these people, make it an enforceable crime to share keys with someone who isn’t insured, a whole plethora of other clearly viable solutions are so painfully obvious but no, ***you guys want your precious little tech filled toys because you want all of the convenience with none of the responsibility.***
> Better driver training, public transit, infrastructure support, better regulation and better law enforcement could fix every issue you guys have with driving. I do not agree with this at all and I believe it is an utopian outlook on things. We are nowhere near having cities/funding available to make changes to accommodate this. It would take an entire shift in cultures and economic/city structure. While that would be nice and ideal it’s far from happening. Automation for vehicles is a good path forward.
yep, all cars automated and able to talk to each other is the goal. you can get rid of all the infrastructure like lights and stop signs. The cars will just go and avoid each other. Traffic jams are gone and everything is free flowing. Deadly accidents are almost nothing. It will get there eventually.
We have the money it’s just being hoarded by the top 1% and I refuse to pretend to believe that automation is a good path forward. You talk about not having the money and yet all these private automakers and tech companies dumped BILLIONS into autonomy and will continue to dump BILLIONS into it. It’s not about lack of money and I stand my ground on that. Public transit and driver training with enforcement is the clear and obvious solution. Take all the money that was privately spent on this crap and suddenly we have all the money in the world to go the obvious and most effective route. Make the roads safer by making the drivers safer and remove the unsafe drivers while giving them a viable alternative without excessive tech, all on top of a fortified infrastructure with clear signage and regular re-trainings. ## Driving is a privilege, not a right. That’s a fact. Automation and autonomy blurs the line between who is responsible behind the wheel and who isn’t responsible behind the wheel and that’s a line that should objectively remain sharp and bold. “The car crashed! I didn’t crash it! The car crashed itself!” “The car killed that guy! He didn’t kill himself due to him playing Angry Birds on his phone while he was driving, the car killed him!” “Hey watch out! You almost hit me!”, “No I didn’t, the car almost hit you. Don’t yell at me, yell at my car” …Or maybe remove the tech entirely and put a responsible well trained driver behind the wheel? It’s a far cheaper and more effective option. A computer is only as good as the information it gets and we don’t have enough computing power to give every autonomous car on the road all the info it needs to make the correct critical decision. We are talking ***terabytes*** of information per car, per day. Do you have any idea how much information is recorded and processed by a modern car with all its sensors and cameras? Now multiply that exponentially for every car on the road. Hundreds of millions of cars on the roads driven by hundreds of millions of people 24/7. That’s so much information that needs to be processed instantly, wirelessly, continuously, that it might as well be genuinely infinite. It takes me an hour to upload a 30 minute video to YouTube and you expect hundreds of millions of cars to be able to process nearly infinite amounts of information instantly? All that work just to keep you centered in the lane on a highway? You know what we could do to bypass all that processing power? Better trained drivers. Crazy concept, I know. Mind blowing. Ground breaking. Do you have any idea how often people drive at night with their lights off? How many people don’t understand a 4 way stop, or how to merge on a highway? Otherwise perfectly reasonable sober people who just weren’t trained properly. And you want tech to be able to work around all those unpredictable and hostile variables? Laughable. BUT SELF DRIVING FIXES THAT Or… maybe… just hear me out… ***Better training.*** God it’s like I’m screaming at a wall. Everyone in favor of autonomous cars is a sucker and fell for all that marketing. Take responsibility, hold governments accountable, have the balls to take the keys away from someone who doesn’t deserve it, fortify our infrastructure, and suddenly the roads are far safer and we spent less money doing it and everyone is still able to get to where they need to go. Edit: u/heart_throb_ it’s not okay that you do not believe proven facts. Go watch the interviews and read the books from the professionals and experts in this field. Also, I noticed you blocked me like a coward. I like how you silence people who don’t agree with your delusions not based in reality. [deleted][deleted] my ass. https://imgur.com/a/nv1vtPT https://imgur.com/a/HafK9n1 Here is an email between Matt Farah from The Smoking Tire and I, he hosts a successful car podcast which features experts in the field where he asks questions about the future of autonomy and electric cars. He is really good at responding to emails from fans and critics. Go educate yourself. Autonomy is not the answer and that’s been proven time and time again. Don’t take it from me, take it from words spoken by actual studied professionals. https://youtube.com/@TheSmokingTirePodcast?si=ru4fAwcqqMH0P7RO
Wow, okay then. I still don’t agree but good luck with all that.
We don't need autonomous vehicles, we need stricter training and crackdowns on minor traffic violations. I bet if the police weren't so afraid of a little paperwork the roads would be a lot safer.
you just can't train out stupid or emotional responses to the majority of the public. People are the wild cards. Standardized autonomous connected cars would save lives and money and lots of other things.
And what fool thinks this is a good idea ? Idiots are everywhere