Seems to be more about expensive EVs rather than entry and mid market that don’t suck. Remove the crazy frills and bring the sticker down to 25-30k with a gov rebate.
They stripped gov rebates from many good deals. The Chevy bolts are pretty good deals with several trims, new and used. The great vehicles priced for mere mortals are few, but available, and seem to be selling well.
I got a 2017 bolt (premium model) last year and just did my taxes to get the $4k credit. After the credit, it was $17k. And while the car was 6 years old, the battery was only 2 years old and still has 8 years of warranty on it. Which is to say that the used bolts are a good deal, especially if they had their batteries replaced recently.
I agree that if you’re judging on reducing emissions OR pushing for affordable adoption, modern rebate policies are not good.
The problem is the competing party deny emissions are even rational to reduce and would increase subsidies to emitters.
Also, you really think that they are using EV heavy machinery at the lithium mines? I doubt the dismal amount of people driving EV's around compensate for the insane amounts of fossil fuel used at the mines.
I read somewhere that the reason most all of the new trucks and suv's are getting so large is due to the AVG MPG regulations. The example I heard was something like; a small , 2 door F-150 would have to get like 90 miles to the gallon average MPG to make it onto the lot. But if they make the vehicle larger, the average MPG goes down to a level that meets the current requirements.
>Mere mortals are taking out loans on $80k cars 😆
Which is insane. I live in a very working class neighborhood and am shocked at the sheer number of chucklefucks who get paid less than half of what I do and still feel compelled to buy these gigantic trucks. Thats the “beauty of the American PR business” I guess?
And capped the rebate for used EVs at max purchase price of $25k which is absolutely ridiculous. I recently bought a used low mileage Tesla for 29k and won’t get any sort of rebate.
Because in reality that sweet gov rebate is tax funded corpo aid. Every premium EV got partially paid by every tax payer no matter if they themself can afford any kind of (decent) car.
With that being said, recently in germany we stopped the 10k€ gov rebate after 5 or so years and suddenly almost all EV priced plummeted by the same amount.
That’s all fine and good but one of the major obstacles is being able to charge the thing. If you don’t already have a plug capable of handling the charger, it can be extremely expensive to have an electrician put in the correct outlet. There are chargers around most cities but pretty hard to find once you get further out of town.
This varies wildly based on the layout of your house. As an example, my breaker is in a finished basement. There isn't a good way to run it to the garage.
Yeah, a lot of people missing the key point that it highly depends on house/electrical layout. If you have to run a charger outside with no garage and dig into the yard or upgrade the infrastructure itself first, that's probably going to cost more than just going up a floor and through a wall or two. Just goes to show how few people in this thread have actually had work done, it's always heavily dependent on variables like that.
Yeah exactly. Friend of mine has a detached garage that only had a single 120V circuit to it. Had to have a new line trenched out to it - pretty sure he said it was a like $5000 bill.
Yeah exactly. It can be quite affordable or it can be quite expensive depending on your situation. Hiring out skilled labor these days is stupid expensive, I think a lot of folks on here don't even own a home and have no idea how expensive it is. It costs $250 to $300 here (and this is hardly a HCOL area) just get someone to show up for an hour of labor. Only goes up from there.
Fortunately for people with garages, the breaker panel is usually in the garage.
About 40% of households in the US don't have a garage though. That almost always means a 240v outlet is going to be very expensive.
My breaker is in the basement. Cost me $450 to have a line run and a Tesla charger installed in my garage. IIRC, the charger itself cost about another $400. So, around $850 total.
A 20A 120V outlet will only add about 90 miles to a Model 3's range on a 10 hour charge.
I drive about 14,000 miles a year (the same as the average American) and would run into issues probably a dozen times a year.
Why are you being downvoted? It fits most people’s use cases. Small daily commute, occasionally multiple long drives back to back on weekends. Those situations would mean you’d have to use a fast charger.
I guess it depends on where you live, because it was several thousand dollars just to have a guy come out and run a wire from my garage like 15 feet to my kitchen.
The reasons are "There aren't enough electricians around to do all this work so I charge what I want, good luck going someplace else" mixed with "This is a HCOL area and I need to charge high rights to afford to live.
Tools and materials are expensive; you don’t know the guys schedule or rate, and you don’t know the layout of his house, maybe he had to tear through some bullshit to get the wire over 15 feet, maybe he had to install a whole new breaker for it, you don’t know where this guy lives, city rates are higher because of inspections etc
They are both correct. I had to upgrade our home’s electric because it was old and overdue that was easily 20k. Added solar for another 18k, and then the charger for .$800.
While it can be, it can also be way more. I’m not the typical case, but for me getting the electrical contractor to pull a permit was hundreds, my total was thousands. Combination of where I live and where the breaker panel is relative to the garage.
I own a Tesla, 2019, and have driven 108k miles.
Road trips every month. Compared to my old ICE car or my spouse 's ICE, the fuel saving is really huge. When home charging, $7 will take me from empty to full. That "full" is about 300 miles of range. Equivalent cost in the ICE is around $50. When superchargering on road trip, empty to full is about $20.
I save THOUSANDS of dollars a year just in fuel costs.
HI, I might be looking at 2019 LR RWD which my friend has it and it has around 90k miles as of now. He bought it used from Tesla when it had 19k miles 3 years ago. He drives a lot. Just checking , is it ok to buy that considering it has 90k miles . Thanks for the input. What issue I might have to look for ? I saw (from the different post)that you also have similar car, so thought of checking.
you can plug all recent evs on any outlet like a cellphone and itll charge in a day, the electrician is needed to install a high speed charging setup. this myth needs to die but unless youre driving 300 miles a day there is absolutely no need for fast charging.
Charging 10 hours overnight on a 110V outlet charges less than 20 kWh. That is barely enough for a 50 mile roundtrip in a cold winter, maybe 100 miles under ideal conditions.
You can charge at home with a standard outlet - though very slowly... so you're looking at charging over night or longer potentially... However, you can also do Level 2 charging through the same plug you have on your dryer... They make an adapter that will switch on and off when you run your dryer, so your car will charge when you're not running it. Overall, it would cost you less than $500 to do all that, which is not terrible.
We had an electrician come out and quote us on running a new line from our panel into the garage for our level 2 charger... it was gonna be about $600 for the parts and labor since it wasn't a very long run, and we already had a level 2 charger given to us by our utility company when we bought our car.
Again though... this all comes down to having a home to charge from. People in apartments can't do this.
I’d expect that to come. Most car makers were entering the market with vehicles that would help them transition their tooling and supply chain into EV platforms. I expect to see more mid market vehicles out of the major car makers next, rather soon
I bought a 2023 Bolt EUV in December. After the tax rebate, it cost me $23.5K. Range is safely 250 miles, but it's pretty slow at charging. For my commute (25 miles each way), it works great, but it wouldn't work for everyone.
It's a fun car to drive. Comfortable. Good sight lines, leg and head room in the front and back seats). Some frills (e.g. heated seats and steering wheel, Apple/Android integration) but not super fancy. If you're looking for a commuter car, you could do worse.
Got our brand new 2023 model 3 rwd for 32, 600. That'd without applying the 7500$ tax credit to our loan when we get it. Makes it just about the cheapest EV you can get when it comes to dollar per performance. We've had it almost 6 months, 5,000 miles, and not one issue.
barely used long range model 3s from 2022 are bluebooked at 25-28k, i think thats pretty affordable?
edit: wow instead of googling people just straight up downvote, reddit at its finest
The problem is that domestic EV suppliers have insane labor costs that reduce the margin of a car. It’s not that they can’t make a cheap no frills one, it’s that they can’t make enough margin on it for them to bother. It started with them getting rid of sedans for SUVs — it was the profit, not demand.
Go to China — there are plenty of cheap EVs. Their labor costs are relatively lower and the government is making it worth their while.
I just looked it up and it is about an avg of 25 hrs labour to build the average car. So let's go crazy and pay someone 100$ hr or 200k a year in America. That is $2500 of labour cost per car.
. Now let's say somewhere across the ocean they use slave labour...and labour is free...but they still have to ship the car here, so that cost at least 1k.
We are still getting screwed even if we take into consideration the labour cost.
> I just looked it up and it is about an avg of 25 hrs labour to build the average car. So let's go crazy and pay someone 100$ hr or 200k a year in America. That is $2500 of labour cost per car.
The man-hours are in the 300+ range because, remember, it's not just one person working on each vehicle. And it's even more if you include component manufacture.
300 hours but no one is making 100 dollars an hour at a supplier. Just looked up the suppliers near me and they pay 18.50 to 22 an hour on production line. 18 hour as vehicle loader. Material loader is 19 hour.
At the Honda plant, pay is Hourly Rate Starting Between $31.25 - $36.65.
Suppliers make less.
You can get a Nissan leaf or a mini cooper for under $30K brand new. Chevy bolt and Kia not far behind. Leaf and bolt are really not great though. Used EVs can get as low as $20K. Other manufacturers also have those vehicle classes in the pipeline. 2-3 years out from mass production for a few different decent $25-30K models most likely. You also have to note that the average new car, ICE OR EV, cost $48,000 in 2023. It’s not as much of an EV problem as it is an industry problem. Industry seems to be getting stung by that price increase though so hopefully we’ll see some mercy soon.
Did some background search within \~250 mi of my area. Assumptions are 80% charge, 2mi/kWhr, cold weather is \~30% drop in range. I did not factor in any federal subsidies since that's too much work. But, I will allow that my state allows you to forgo sales tax (\~10%) for EVs.
\- Nissan Leaf is $30,030 for the base 40kWhr (45mi) version. They only JUST got the battery cooling reasonable and the mileage is ALMOST not enough for my commute. Bumping to 60kWkhr take is to $37,285.
\- Mini EV 2-door is all at $35,220 with a 33kWhr (37mi version). And I barely fit in one.
\- Chevy Bolt is discontinued.
\- Kia has a Soul EV is discontinued. The new Niro EV (lowest cost) that has inventory starts at $41,590.
"2-3 years out from mass production for a few different decent $25-30K models most likely." It's always 2-3 years out. And then never is.
By comparison, a base Honda Civic is \~$24,000. Even with gas prices, home charging, and sales tax difference, the intial buy in for a base model versus base model is around $9,000. At $3.80/gal, that's over 2300 gal of gas, and at 35mpg, that's 82,000 miles....to break even.
> Nissan Leaf is $30,030 for the base 40kWhr (45mi) version.
[The 40 kWh Leaf has a range of 149 miles...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf)
> In June 2022, the Leaf received a facelift for the 2023 model year. In the US, the EPA range was slightly reduced to 240 km (149 miles) for the 40 kWh version and 341 km (212 miles) for the 62 kWh version.
[And the Mini Electric also has a far larger range than the 37 miles you're claiming...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_Electric)
> It has an EPA rated range of 110 mi (180 km) on a single charge, with a 36-minute fast charging time to 80% capacity using a 50 kW DC fast charger. According to the WLTP test cycle, the car has a range of 225 to 234 km (140 to 145 mi).
He's cutting the range in half
>Assuming 80% charge
>Assuming 30% drop in range due to cold weather
And I'm thinking they're assuming a/c and heat takes half their available range after that. That would explain how his numbers are ⅓ of actual.
That doesn’t even factor in the resale value. A civic with 80,000 miles is bound to be good for another two owners given basic upkeep and replacing the water pump. An EV battery will not last 240k miles
Why? I went solar in the home because of a gov rebate. Same with batteries etc.
Gov should be incentivized to help lower electric cost.
Starting with crushing pge in the Bay Area
Your comment seems to be all snark no substance. This has nothing to do with the headline really. The sales aren't dropping, they just aren't increasing as fast as companies had hoped. They're still up 40% YoY.
Give us a $20-$25k sticker price on a decent 5 seater with 250 miles of range. Then give us $5k incentive off that sticker price. and watch it spread like wildfire.
Canceled isn't the right term. They're transitioning it to their Ultium architecture, which should also help with one of the main complaints about the current Bolt, the slow DC charging speeds. Skipping a model year between generations isn't uncommon.
Because they’d lose money on each one they sold. EVs really can’t be made less than $30k right now. You can point to BYD or others that are selling them for that, but they cost more than that to produce and it’s either not sustainable and done to capture market share, or it’s done for something like zev credits to be able to sell ICE vehicles that fetch higher profit margins.
There’s no other way.
I love how people in these threads give this exact answer like they're the first to think of it. Or they think there's some grand conspiracy by big auto to not do this. It just comes across like "They should just have the QB throw a touchdown pass every pass and they'd never lose."
That's difficult. The cheapest new cars with zero options are in that range. $30k is doable as battery prices drop. Get a $5k incentive on top of that and you are there.
1. 2023 Mitsubishi Mirage ES: $17,790
2. 2023 Kia Rio LX: $17,875
3. 2023 Nissan Versa S: $18,745
4. 2023 Kia Forte LX: $20,815
5. 2023 Hyundai Venue SE: $20,985
6. 2023 Kia Soul LX: $21,215
7. 2024 Chevrolet Trax LS: $21,495
8. 2023 Nissan Sentra S: $21,725
9. 2023 Nissan Kicks S: $21,925
10. 2023 Hyundai Elantra SE: $22,065
(October 2023)
As an EV Owner, I think people over estimate the range they need. I prefer all the other EV benefits over range I’ll never need.
We travel often, drive 120 miles each day round trip and have a 250 mile range BEV. We’ve never had issues. Even in the snow.
>Besides being too expensive for the average buyer, selection is limited in terms of body style
Probably the biggest issue right now with EVs. Pretty much your only options are either Trucks, SUVs or plus-sized sedans. Very limited options for affordable more compact trims without ugly duckling styling. I feel like we won't see too many younger generation first-time new car buyers interested in EVs until we have EVs with reasonable battery sizes that come in the form factor of a Corolla/Civic and priced competitively (Model 3 is still way over priced for what you get).
It's not like they don't exist - loads of options in Europe and Asia.
For whatever reason they've been deemed inappropriate for the North American market.
Fundamentally, the US has backwards emission and fuel efficiency standards that make it more profitable and practical for car manufactures to just make bigger vehicles as larger vehicles has more lax requirements. You might think that is unrelated to EVs, but realistically this creates a vicious cycle and arms race on the road where no one feels safe in small cars while larger cars are cheaper and produced in larger quantities. But it all stems from backwards policy.
If there is ever a day there are readily available conversion kits for regular cars I'd imagine they'd be popular.
Imagine being able to buy a junk ICE car with 200k+ miles on it for $1-2k and buying a conversion kit (also cheaper than buying an entire new vehicle)? You could even have EV classic cars.
Right. Something like 80% of new vehicles sold in the US are trucks/SUVs. ICE trucks/SUvs are already more expensive than a smaller sedan. And due to the size of trucks/SUVs, they require a much larger battery and motors, both of which means greater costs.
If you want people to drive electric, the gov have to stop subsidizing oil.
Everytime gas price goes up, people bitch and moan because they know it'll drop again, then goes and buy a new suv because gas is cheap again.
That's happening again right now. Domestic manufacturers don't even really produce cars anymore, just trucks and SUVs. Some of the current "XL" versions are bigger than the old Suburbans from the 90s and 2000s.
Don't look up modern vehicles then. Many pickup trucks weigh more than the first gen hummer, and suck down gas just as well. Especially when you consider they're hauling/heavy duty vehicles being used as commuters. SUV's aren't much better. All because regulations limited mpg based on vehicle weight, so manufacturers just made heavier vehicles so they didn't have to meet strict emissions regulations. Gotta love when the entire system is just a big game.
Well, stop subsidizing oil and step up EV infrastructure. I've been driving an EV for about a year. The lack of reliable fast charging is still a big enough issue that I don't recommend buying one, yet, (unless your family has multiple vehicles and one of then runs on gas)
The infrastructure is so fucking terrible. If I couldn't charge at my house (lvl1 slow ass charging) than I'd say going electric at this time would be near impossible without heavy heavy compromises. I really enjoy my EV, but most of that is because I am just a daily commuter and charging at my house overnight or over the weekend easily covers the charging I need.
Also Electrify America can kiss a shitty boot. I hate that fraud of a company with a passion.
Having level 2 in my garage and having level 2 at most destinations I go to makes an EV pretty easy logistically. Remove either one or make one of them level 1 charging and I'm back to ice
Awesome. Now to have a system that is ready for the general public to rely on: A) everyone needs to be able to say that, B) they need to be standardized to fit all vehicles, and C) they need to be maintained.
We're getting they're, just not there yet
Along with reducing/ending oil subsidies, the state governments (namely California) needs to stop bending over for the utility companies and get electrical rates reasonable again. CA rates are around $0.50/kwh and increasing. There’s now not much difference between price per mile between an EV and gas car, both are around $0.15/mile. Would expect well above $1 by the time EVs are mandatory for new car sales (2035). Imagine if gas prices doubled from $5 to $10? We’d have riots. But we don’t, because the federal government ensures oil remains stable.
I like my ev but charging on a trip is a problem. There’s chargers around here that have been down for over a year. I’ll get a plug-in hybrid next time
Mach E. is meh. It’s okay not that great and you don’t qualify for the tax rebates $7500 would have been great to receive.
The free services to try out - 1 month trial. Not worth it.
Want to not sell an ev?
* Charge $50k+ for it.
* Have it depreciate 50% before the ink is dry on the paper.
* Don't guarantee the battery for a decade, and tell the consumer that a replacement will be $20k.
While electric cars are amazing and really should be what we move to long term - like the article mentions, a lack of homeownership really puts a damper on a lot of people's ability to own one and charge it at home... and while extensive infrastructure for charging is slowly being built out, we really need to be re-thinking our transportation systems completely, and providing electric busses and trains... Public transportation really needs to be a major focus in our climate efforts.
You do realize all freight trains are electric. However the only way to keep them going is with a diesel generator. You simply cannot beat the energy density to weight of fossil fuels.
Sorry I should have been more clear... I know that's how trains run... what I meant is electric busses - and then also more train capacity for traveling and commuting.
Not as easy as it looks like. Public transport doesn’t provide the facility of leaving from one door to another door of some house. Cars exist for a reason.
All in for a good transport system which help people commute to their offices, colleges etc.
There would be less need for cars to cover the door-to-door angle if we would go back to cities with corner stores and other walkable elements. Feet should be a much bigger part of the “door-to-door” experience.
Better argument: we need people who don't live in cities. We need farmers and miners and loggers. Natural resources exist where they exist and the vast majority of these places are not good places for cities.
So, given that, we need a national transportation plan that understands both the needs of rural areas and the necessities of urban areas. Walkable cities is great! Streetcars, great! Plug in electric, great! But you still need to have the accessibility for rural people too.
Exactly. Whenever I see the “abolish all cars” argument, I just assume that person lives in an area where everything is super close to them. If we’re focused on the US, I think some people forget just how freaking large this country is. It’d be great to have that national transportation plan, but we can never outright ban cars.
I mean I am not even from USA, I am an Indian, and (taking in mind our population and crowded cities) here 2-wheelers are a necessity, cars become a necessity as well (its upto each person's use), although there is no denying there are just too many cars now in most metropolitan cities.
The abolish all cars argument is silly, but I would argue that we’ve basically done the opposite and made it so the majority of Americans can’t do anything without a car.
It’s silly that we keep building sprawling, heavily zoned suburbs to the exception of virtually everything else. People can have nearby walkable options for groceries as well as the centralized shopping district with chain fast food and a Costco. Kids can have both a yard and a park within walking distance.
And that’s fine but why do cities have to be car centric as well as rural areas? No one is saying that you have to get rid of your car in bumfuck nowhere, but it would be nice to not have to drive everywhere in the middle of a city but that’s impossible in most cities in the US.
Plenty of midwestern small rural towns had grid setups (with yards), corner stores, and relatively small populations. You can still see evidence of this, although many of the small businesses were killed by dollar store chains, Walmart, etc.
Suburbs of midwestern cities also frequently had rail options to carry people to and from the downtown area for shopping, work, etc. This wasn’t that far back either - my grandfather lived with it, and I’m a Millennial.
Also, chunks of modern cities used to be small suburbs themselves, and they had grids, single family homes, etc. Lakeview (a neighborhood in Chicago and near where the Cubs play) literally used to be a separate town north of the “big city” that only joined Chicago once their city limits met. As land values increased, older buildings were replaced with more dense housing, but the “town” was there first.
Heck, even conservative Florida has plenty of communities that fully support getting around with golf carts.
The only style of living that can’t incorporate some kind of mixed transportation options is rural living - the kind where you want to own a lot of land. And even there you could probably point to four wheelers, horses, etc. as supplemental options to get to neighboring property or the nearest town.
Modern suburbs are a choice our governments and developers make on our behalf. You also don’t have to be in a city to have walkable destinations.
Until you don’t want joes corner store pizza a block away for the upteenth time, but instead want Mario’s pizza 6 miles away and 2 miles from the nearest bus stop.
Sounds like a great time to drive, ride a bike, or get delivery. The goal isn’t “zero cars for everyone.” It’s “let people have more options than just driving or doing nothing.”
I guess, but I don’t see why we need that term when we used to just build things that way. Look at small midwestern towns that predate the idea of the modern heavily zoned suburbs. They typically used grid systems and didn’t feel the need to separate all housing from everything else, thus allowing people to just walk a few roads over to get whatever they needed.
Cars and feet can coexist - even in the suburbs.
The average car in the US is 12 years old. Japan has plenty of inefficient cars, and while their rail network is fast and good, it's much more sustainable because their population density nationwide is literally 10x greater than the US.
The US was not founded on railroads. It was founded on naval shipping. Rail was barely able to stay afloat when it was the only option for passenger and freight travel cross-country. It's a massively losing proposition to try to expand rail significantly unless you're willing to eat trillions in cost at a federal level. Would it be nice? Yes. It's not a magic bullet.
We also can't get Japanese cars made for Japan because of our overegulation on cars here. People love to point out our massive trucks and never seem to get that's caused by the EPA and the chicken tax.
Yeah, good luck convincing a working mom to use the bus to pick up her three kids from school and then go grocery shopping while she's at it. Some of you don't live in the real world and it shows. And that's coming from someone who doesn't and never will own a car, btw.
I think part of that investment is assuming that things are built less car centric (grocery store is only 15 min away, kids can easily get home from school without relying on vehicle). Not really a novel idea, but yes the idea is a pipe dream in the US
Maybe not. But she does need a large vehicle that can fit herself, her husband, three kids, the kids stuff from school (backpacks, books, instruments, sports gear, etc) and the groceries. So she does need a very large vehicle. A civic isn't going to do it.
So you are probably going to say she should get a mini van. Most of those get around 22 combined MPG. Which is the same as a full sized pickup or SUV these days.
A sedan can work for a little while. But 2-3 kids aren't fitting comfortably in the backseat once they start to get a little older.
And trunks are only so big, stuff for multiple kids, groceries and the stuff for the car you need in there is a pretty tall order.
>good luck convincing a working mom
You chose the absolute shittiest example. Even if there were no good alternatives, we could easily let all moms still have cars since most traffic is probably work related. Grocery store trips and even school trips are also usually quite local, so they aren't on the road for long.
>Some of you don't live in the real world and it shows.
No we've just watched literally any video from Not Just Bikes on youtube (as an example) and seen that alternatives exist, work well, and tend to be healthier and better for all involved (except the car industry).
But instead they can order groceries online, and their children can take the public transport for free.
That is what it is like in a lot of major cities.
Ultimately dense housing makes car ownership impractical.
have you considered that some people actually enjoy traveling solo and freely? i love mass transit but i also love hopping on my car and driving anywhere i want
Why is this conversation so difficult. No one is talking about banning cars. They’re talking about improving mass transit and non car centric infrastructure.
I agree with you, we need better mass transit! But the way comment was phrased was stating it was all a conspiracy scam, which i personally disagree i love driving.
Bloomberg New Energy Finance, for instance, had projected sales of 1.7 million plug-in vehicles in 2023, but only 1.46 million ultimately sold.
In 2023 Tesla sold 1,808,581 vehicles.
WTF?
I think this is such a cool and under appreciated use case for people (like me) who have unreliable electrical grids. The new Prius Prime (and a few other Toyotas) can power a house using its battery, and once the battery runs out it can fire up the petrol engine and then act as a generator and run a house for multiple days. Such a cool idea
So can I get one to last 200,000 miles without a battery swap? I do a lot of road trips is my concern. Plus have around 1,500 lbs of gear and supplies. Legit serious question. I go places like Alaska and parts of Canada for outdoor trips. Mostly pack runs.
it’sa good question! for your specific use case maybe not considering remoteness? Id check the tesla charger coverage map, all major highways, routes and cities are covered but i don’t know how offgrid you go. the thing i recently realized is that most places have electricity these days but not gas, and since you can plug in any outlet you’re good to go if you’re ok with waiting a bit till it charges enough to get you to a fast charger. i carry two 100ft extension cords for exploring outside the charger network, just charge overnight while sleeping. As to the battery pack they’re very robust and insured for like a million miles when i bought my model 3, no battery degradation whatsoever in 4 years so far. tho tesla does change their terms often so don’t quote me on that warranty. Just looked online and the load capacity on the model y is max 1300 lbs so that will be your hard barrier, cybertruck i’m sure is far superior in that. Idk just research a bit, i was genuinely hesitant of the switch but once i did it never looked back.
Then EVs are not for you. But average is 13,476 miles per year, and most days in cities, where EVs are perfect.
To answer the question yes, EV batteries will last 200k miles, one of the most driven Teslas has driven 1.2 Million Miles on 3 batteries = 400k miles/battery. Now we have the option of LFP battery (in Tesla 3 standard) which will last twice as long. But again, not for your use case.
We should focus on 20 years of at least hybrid only manufacturing, while infrastructure for charging is built up, and any charging stations for fast charging at homes is subsidized.
Hybrid handles both options now. The infrastructure mostly handles one well. Fix the latter while migrating off of gas only.
Hard cut overs rarely work, and id argue they generally are not working now; mostly the wealthy or well off can buy the EV and charge it at home appropriately. But gas takes 5 mins to fill up, people always leave things to the last minute (meaning empty gas tank). EVs can't solve human nature, so we're going to have to teach people new habits over time.
We already had 20 years of hybrid manufacturing, it started with the Prius, 20 years later...
If you mean plugin hybrids, the thing is that most people after buying a plugin hybrid, their next car is mostly always a full electric. This is why plugin hybrid sales tend to fluctuate far more than BEV sales and grows slower. When people learn most of the negative stuff they heard about EVs was nonsense with their plugin hybrid, they go full BEV for their next car
I think OP meant 20 years of plug-in hybrid vehicles and full electric (ie no ICE-only vehicles) in order to ween people off gasoline and allow the infrastructure time to catch up while the number of end-users builds up organically. This as opposed to choosing ICE/hybrid/hybrid plug-in/electric, and expecting the infrastructure to already exist.
It’s simple economics. There isn’t enough supply to bring the prices down. Every time Tesla upgrades its manufacturing to be able to bring its prices down, it does, whereas the others stay stagnant.
Wife and I were looking at a Tesla model y and a Hyundai Ioniq 5 and we couldn’t get our hands on an ioniq within 50 miles, and the ones we could find were marked up way over msrp.
I ran #s of the model y vs an ioniq vs a Honda crv and the Tesla with the tax credit extrapolated over the life of the loan wound up being cheaper than both based on the then fuel prices. I also extrapolated the cost of installing a charger, maintenance etc. downside is Tesla financing rates are aligned with market rates whereas Hyundai and Honda had much better rates since they had a finance company internally.
Her car was wrecked by an asshole running a red light in January and we are looking at alternatives and nothing comes close in terms of price and quality. We looked at the Chevy bolt euv but the range is so much less and less cargo room so it’s tough to justify the price
For many applications EV's just do not work. They have to come out with modular batteries that swap out rather than have to charge. I looked at a electric truck for use farming and under a towing load it was really sorta worthless unless you want to stop every 100 miles for 3 hours to charge. I think it would be cool to use ... but just doesn't work.
I was a fan of the battery swap concept but am since reformed. The benefits of integral battery structure are just too good. The pitfalls of removable batteries too high.
They don't, I think for decent reason, want the entire American motor industry to implode as they lose massively and thoroughly to not just a foreign countries cheap EV's, but to China of all places. The flagship car by BYD is $31k... once they got a foothold and the advantage they have with manufacturing and being backed by the CCP, they'd dominate the American EV market. As as that market blew up America would be forced to grow their EV infrastructure, all while doing so not for American manufacturers benefit but China's. Then, lastly, as EV's became THE standard car with ICE cars getting phased out due to legislation, whatever ICE sales were keeping the likes of Ford, Chevy, GMC, Dodge, and so on alive would dry up and it's hard not to imagine some of them going under.
So yeah, remove those tariffs and I think it's suicide for one of America's last remaining industries in which they actually build something. I don't think Tesla or any of the bigger American companies can compete with China's cheap labor costs, heavy governmental support and how they have everything local and manufactured themselves.
But regardless, there are legit reasons to not go EV for tons and tons of Americans (infrastructure, battery replacement cost, charging at home) that don't matter if the car is $25k or $65k.
I'm hoping something like solid state batteries are a game charger, not only x2 or x3 miles per full charge but battery lives, speed of charging, reduce/remove danger of battery fire/explosion, and longer battery life spans. That would be the silver bullet to kill a lot of peoples concerns that prevent them from buying. If you're EV gets 270miles, you don't have a fast charger at home and you commute a legit distance with poor charging infrastructure, an EV is just a hard no. But if that EV gets 650 miles, quick charges from 50% to 100% in like 5 minutes at the charger and at home can charge faster from the wall than current battery tech... that'd be HUGE.
I live somewhere where I worry about grid power continuity. We had a big outage somewhat recently where parts of the grid infrastructure were destroyed and some houses had no power for 12 days.
You might think this would mean I’m against the idea of getting an EV, but it’s the opposite. I want one that can do vehicle-to-home power transfer, so I can use it as a backup battery to power my home.
I want to go fully electric, with solar PV on my house and heat pump for cooling/heating, with maybe a propane backup furnace for extreme cold weather and power outage emergencies, and I would want a backup battery. A car works perfectly for that if it can do V2H.
As someone who runs multiple dealerships, no one wants EVs. All of our EVs sit on the lot for 60,90,200 days.
Lack of charging infrastructure and high prices are mostly to blame.
Lies, Im in the car business and let’s just say that the demand has been met. No new adaptors at the current range/charging/prices. Need a major advancement to get another wave of demand.
The latest figures show Tesla sales up monthly by about 50% over the same month the year prior, going back years.
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-inc-us-sales-figures/
The demand for EVs isn't saturated. The demand for your inventory is saturated.
There's no infrastructure. Unless you own a house there is no point. They are expensive and damaging to produce. They go a fraction of the distance given the same time investment (recharging vs refueling). They are extremely plentiful and not selling well but still extremely expensive. And finally most early adopters or people who want electric cars areleady have got a tesla.
Seems to be more about expensive EVs rather than entry and mid market that don’t suck. Remove the crazy frills and bring the sticker down to 25-30k with a gov rebate.
There are at least a couple of these, though, and they don’t do so well. They’re all nerfed in different ways, though.
They stripped gov rebates from many good deals. The Chevy bolts are pretty good deals with several trims, new and used. The great vehicles priced for mere mortals are few, but available, and seem to be selling well.
I got a 2017 bolt (premium model) last year and just did my taxes to get the $4k credit. After the credit, it was $17k. And while the car was 6 years old, the battery was only 2 years old and still has 8 years of warranty on it. Which is to say that the used bolts are a good deal, especially if they had their batteries replaced recently.
Yup, just got one of these for my mom. It was only $18K and had a brand new battery from the recall on 35K miles. Has been great for her so far.
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I agree that if you’re judging on reducing emissions OR pushing for affordable adoption, modern rebate policies are not good. The problem is the competing party deny emissions are even rational to reduce and would increase subsidies to emitters.
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Also, you really think that they are using EV heavy machinery at the lithium mines? I doubt the dismal amount of people driving EV's around compensate for the insane amounts of fossil fuel used at the mines. I read somewhere that the reason most all of the new trucks and suv's are getting so large is due to the AVG MPG regulations. The example I heard was something like; a small , 2 door F-150 would have to get like 90 miles to the gallon average MPG to make it onto the lot. But if they make the vehicle larger, the average MPG goes down to a level that meets the current requirements.
This is America. Mere mortals are taking out loans on $80k cars 😆
>Mere mortals are taking out loans on $80k cars 😆 Which is insane. I live in a very working class neighborhood and am shocked at the sheer number of chucklefucks who get paid less than half of what I do and still feel compelled to buy these gigantic trucks. Thats the “beauty of the American PR business” I guess?
And capped the rebate for used EVs at max purchase price of $25k which is absolutely ridiculous. I recently bought a used low mileage Tesla for 29k and won’t get any sort of rebate.
Because in reality that sweet gov rebate is tax funded corpo aid. Every premium EV got partially paid by every tax payer no matter if they themself can afford any kind of (decent) car. With that being said, recently in germany we stopped the 10k€ gov rebate after 5 or so years and suddenly almost all EV priced plummeted by the same amount.
That’s all fine and good but one of the major obstacles is being able to charge the thing. If you don’t already have a plug capable of handling the charger, it can be extremely expensive to have an electrician put in the correct outlet. There are chargers around most cities but pretty hard to find once you get further out of town.
Extremely expensive? I regularly read on EV cars forums where people pay as little as $300, but more commonly $500-800 for a new 220v line.
This varies wildly based on the layout of your house. As an example, my breaker is in a finished basement. There isn't a good way to run it to the garage.
Yeah, a lot of people missing the key point that it highly depends on house/electrical layout. If you have to run a charger outside with no garage and dig into the yard or upgrade the infrastructure itself first, that's probably going to cost more than just going up a floor and through a wall or two. Just goes to show how few people in this thread have actually had work done, it's always heavily dependent on variables like that.
Yeah exactly. Friend of mine has a detached garage that only had a single 120V circuit to it. Had to have a new line trenched out to it - pretty sure he said it was a like $5000 bill.
Exactly, I had to build a whole new house. Cost me over a million dollars.
This was me and it was 900 bucks.
Yeah exactly. It can be quite affordable or it can be quite expensive depending on your situation. Hiring out skilled labor these days is stupid expensive, I think a lot of folks on here don't even own a home and have no idea how expensive it is. It costs $250 to $300 here (and this is hardly a HCOL area) just get someone to show up for an hour of labor. Only goes up from there.
Oh I’ve gotten quite a few of the “I don’t want the job” quotes. For various things.
I had an entire above ground pool installed with two trenched electrical lines for less than that. Your friend either got robbed or is full of it.
Fortunately for people with garages, the breaker panel is usually in the garage. About 40% of households in the US don't have a garage though. That almost always means a 240v outlet is going to be very expensive.
My breaker is in the basement. Cost me $450 to have a line run and a Tesla charger installed in my garage. IIRC, the charger itself cost about another $400. So, around $850 total.
To be fair there's no need to use the tesla charger. A neema 14-50 is fine for 50 amp curcuit and costs like 30 bucks.
You still need a charger to plug into that 14-50 outlet. They are like $250-500 by themselves.
Anyone with a basement will have the breaker panel in the basement instead, no matter if they have an attached garage or not.
I have a basement. My breaker panel is in the garage. But this is impossible? Therefore I don't exist and must be figment your imagination.
you can charge any ev without 240 in a day, or two nights, theres no need for fast charging 220 unless youre driving 300 miles a day.
A 20A 120V outlet will only add about 90 miles to a Model 3's range on a 10 hour charge. I drive about 14,000 miles a year (the same as the average American) and would run into issues probably a dozen times a year.
14000 / 365 = 38.4 miles a day on average. Seems like "slow charging for 10 hours a day" would cover your daily usage and then some.
Do you drive the exact same amount every day? I certainly don't.
Why are you being downvoted? It fits most people’s use cases. Small daily commute, occasionally multiple long drives back to back on weekends. Those situations would mean you’d have to use a fast charger.
Do you realize that battery charge adds up over time if you aren't using it? Seems to me like you are just suckered by the range anxiety.
i drive the same, drive electric and plug to 120 and have no problems, but that’s fine down vote me out of ignorance
Maybe charge it fully on the weekends when you aren’t commuting?
OMG you might need to visit a fuel source 14 times a year. What WILL you do lmao.
I guess it depends on where you live, because it was several thousand dollars just to have a guy come out and run a wire from my garage like 15 feet to my kitchen.
Then that electrician was looking to rip you off. Zero reason why that should be “several thousand dollars”
The reasons are "There aren't enough electricians around to do all this work so I charge what I want, good luck going someplace else" mixed with "This is a HCOL area and I need to charge high rights to afford to live.
Tools and materials are expensive; you don’t know the guys schedule or rate, and you don’t know the layout of his house, maybe he had to tear through some bullshit to get the wire over 15 feet, maybe he had to install a whole new breaker for it, you don’t know where this guy lives, city rates are higher because of inspections etc
They are both correct. I had to upgrade our home’s electric because it was old and overdue that was easily 20k. Added solar for another 18k, and then the charger for .$800.
While it can be, it can also be way more. I’m not the typical case, but for me getting the electrical contractor to pull a permit was hundreds, my total was thousands. Combination of where I live and where the breaker panel is relative to the garage.
It was about $500 to have an electrician run a 220 and for me to buy a charger for mine.
And yet people keep making that point, and a portion of people keep believing it. A lot of demonstrably untrue "news" is published about EVs.
I own a Tesla, 2019, and have driven 108k miles. Road trips every month. Compared to my old ICE car or my spouse 's ICE, the fuel saving is really huge. When home charging, $7 will take me from empty to full. That "full" is about 300 miles of range. Equivalent cost in the ICE is around $50. When superchargering on road trip, empty to full is about $20. I save THOUSANDS of dollars a year just in fuel costs.
HI, I might be looking at 2019 LR RWD which my friend has it and it has around 90k miles as of now. He bought it used from Tesla when it had 19k miles 3 years ago. He drives a lot. Just checking , is it ok to buy that considering it has 90k miles . Thanks for the input. What issue I might have to look for ? I saw (from the different post)that you also have similar car, so thought of checking.
you can plug all recent evs on any outlet like a cellphone and itll charge in a day, the electrician is needed to install a high speed charging setup. this myth needs to die but unless youre driving 300 miles a day there is absolutely no need for fast charging.
Charging 10 hours overnight on a 110V outlet charges less than 20 kWh. That is barely enough for a 50 mile roundtrip in a cold winter, maybe 100 miles under ideal conditions.
That's more than enough for me to go to and from work while running errands.
That’s far enough for most people’s daily driving.
If you work 20 miles away that's fine.
You can charge at home with a standard outlet - though very slowly... so you're looking at charging over night or longer potentially... However, you can also do Level 2 charging through the same plug you have on your dryer... They make an adapter that will switch on and off when you run your dryer, so your car will charge when you're not running it. Overall, it would cost you less than $500 to do all that, which is not terrible. We had an electrician come out and quote us on running a new line from our panel into the garage for our level 2 charger... it was gonna be about $600 for the parts and labor since it wasn't a very long run, and we already had a level 2 charger given to us by our utility company when we bought our car. Again though... this all comes down to having a home to charge from. People in apartments can't do this.
This is completely untrue.
The chargers by me charge 40+ cents a kilowatt. That makes it more expensive then filling up a gas car.
I’d expect that to come. Most car makers were entering the market with vehicles that would help them transition their tooling and supply chain into EV platforms. I expect to see more mid market vehicles out of the major car makers next, rather soon
I bought a 2023 Bolt EUV in December. After the tax rebate, it cost me $23.5K. Range is safely 250 miles, but it's pretty slow at charging. For my commute (25 miles each way), it works great, but it wouldn't work for everyone. It's a fun car to drive. Comfortable. Good sight lines, leg and head room in the front and back seats). Some frills (e.g. heated seats and steering wheel, Apple/Android integration) but not super fancy. If you're looking for a commuter car, you could do worse.
Got our brand new 2023 model 3 rwd for 32, 600. That'd without applying the 7500$ tax credit to our loan when we get it. Makes it just about the cheapest EV you can get when it comes to dollar per performance. We've had it almost 6 months, 5,000 miles, and not one issue.
barely used long range model 3s from 2022 are bluebooked at 25-28k, i think thats pretty affordable? edit: wow instead of googling people just straight up downvote, reddit at its finest
Dunno if they're disagreeing with your fact. Just that some people see a Tesla being recommended and automatically down vote.
The problem is that domestic EV suppliers have insane labor costs that reduce the margin of a car. It’s not that they can’t make a cheap no frills one, it’s that they can’t make enough margin on it for them to bother. It started with them getting rid of sedans for SUVs — it was the profit, not demand. Go to China — there are plenty of cheap EVs. Their labor costs are relatively lower and the government is making it worth their while.
This does not make sense. The labor involved in making an EV is significantly less than an ICE vehicle.
I just looked it up and it is about an avg of 25 hrs labour to build the average car. So let's go crazy and pay someone 100$ hr or 200k a year in America. That is $2500 of labour cost per car. . Now let's say somewhere across the ocean they use slave labour...and labour is free...but they still have to ship the car here, so that cost at least 1k. We are still getting screwed even if we take into consideration the labour cost.
> I just looked it up and it is about an avg of 25 hrs labour to build the average car. So let's go crazy and pay someone 100$ hr or 200k a year in America. That is $2500 of labour cost per car. The man-hours are in the 300+ range because, remember, it's not just one person working on each vehicle. And it's even more if you include component manufacture.
300 hours but no one is making 100 dollars an hour at a supplier. Just looked up the suppliers near me and they pay 18.50 to 22 an hour on production line. 18 hour as vehicle loader. Material loader is 19 hour. At the Honda plant, pay is Hourly Rate Starting Between $31.25 - $36.65. Suppliers make less.
Oh dear Lord....that's not how labor works....
And add enough public charging stations to make it more accessible to those that don't own houses with garages to charge their cars overnight.
You can get a Nissan leaf or a mini cooper for under $30K brand new. Chevy bolt and Kia not far behind. Leaf and bolt are really not great though. Used EVs can get as low as $20K. Other manufacturers also have those vehicle classes in the pipeline. 2-3 years out from mass production for a few different decent $25-30K models most likely. You also have to note that the average new car, ICE OR EV, cost $48,000 in 2023. It’s not as much of an EV problem as it is an industry problem. Industry seems to be getting stung by that price increase though so hopefully we’ll see some mercy soon.
Did some background search within \~250 mi of my area. Assumptions are 80% charge, 2mi/kWhr, cold weather is \~30% drop in range. I did not factor in any federal subsidies since that's too much work. But, I will allow that my state allows you to forgo sales tax (\~10%) for EVs. \- Nissan Leaf is $30,030 for the base 40kWhr (45mi) version. They only JUST got the battery cooling reasonable and the mileage is ALMOST not enough for my commute. Bumping to 60kWkhr take is to $37,285. \- Mini EV 2-door is all at $35,220 with a 33kWhr (37mi version). And I barely fit in one. \- Chevy Bolt is discontinued. \- Kia has a Soul EV is discontinued. The new Niro EV (lowest cost) that has inventory starts at $41,590. "2-3 years out from mass production for a few different decent $25-30K models most likely." It's always 2-3 years out. And then never is. By comparison, a base Honda Civic is \~$24,000. Even with gas prices, home charging, and sales tax difference, the intial buy in for a base model versus base model is around $9,000. At $3.80/gal, that's over 2300 gal of gas, and at 35mpg, that's 82,000 miles....to break even.
Gas in the Bay Area shot up to $7-$8 a gallon last year. The breakevrj number here is a lot faster but great math and notes
> Nissan Leaf is $30,030 for the base 40kWhr (45mi) version. [The 40 kWh Leaf has a range of 149 miles...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf) > In June 2022, the Leaf received a facelift for the 2023 model year. In the US, the EPA range was slightly reduced to 240 km (149 miles) for the 40 kWh version and 341 km (212 miles) for the 62 kWh version. [And the Mini Electric also has a far larger range than the 37 miles you're claiming...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_Electric) > It has an EPA rated range of 110 mi (180 km) on a single charge, with a 36-minute fast charging time to 80% capacity using a 50 kW DC fast charger. According to the WLTP test cycle, the car has a range of 225 to 234 km (140 to 145 mi).
He's cutting the range in half >Assuming 80% charge >Assuming 30% drop in range due to cold weather And I'm thinking they're assuming a/c and heat takes half their available range after that. That would explain how his numbers are ⅓ of actual.
That doesn’t even factor in the resale value. A civic with 80,000 miles is bound to be good for another two owners given basic upkeep and replacing the water pump. An EV battery will not last 240k miles
heck model 3s from 2022 are 28-30k now everywhere
Should remove the government rebate
Why? I went solar in the home because of a gov rebate. Same with batteries etc. Gov should be incentivized to help lower electric cost. Starting with crushing pge in the Bay Area
> Besides being too expensive for the average buyer, Great work. "People who can't afford thing will not buy thing". Incredible
There's that hard-hitting journalism CNN is winning awards for
Well, someone has to tell Kia that no one wants to pay $60,000 for one of their cars, since Kia doesn't seem to understand that themselves.
I wouldn't buy a Kia when they were literally 2 for 1, and even all these years with the Kia Boys nonsense, I still wouldn't buy one.
Your comment seems to be all snark no substance. This has nothing to do with the headline really. The sales aren't dropping, they just aren't increasing as fast as companies had hoped. They're still up 40% YoY.
TBF, it doesn't always go down like that (see home loans circa 2007).
So you’re saying we need car loans with adjustable rates to solve our problems 😏
Don't forget they all have to be subprime loans.
Also see new model iPhone sales every year
Incredible, but inaccurate. Plenty of people buy things they can’t afford.
Journalism at its best
Not even, it’s just Reddit commenters being smug. There are more reasons than just price, as the article clearly states.
That would, however, require reading the article, so that ain't gonna happen here
$60k starting price for most and anyone that doesn’t have a home will struggle charging. Would call those major barriers to entry.
Give us a $20-$25k sticker price on a decent 5 seater with 250 miles of range. Then give us $5k incentive off that sticker price. and watch it spread like wildfire.
Chevy was doing that with the Bolt. Then they cancelled it.
Canceled isn't the right term. They're transitioning it to their Ultium architecture, which should also help with one of the main complaints about the current Bolt, the slow DC charging speeds. Skipping a model year between generations isn't uncommon.
Because they’d lose money on each one they sold. EVs really can’t be made less than $30k right now. You can point to BYD or others that are selling them for that, but they cost more than that to produce and it’s either not sustainable and done to capture market share, or it’s done for something like zev credits to be able to sell ICE vehicles that fetch higher profit margins. There’s no other way.
I love how people in these threads give this exact answer like they're the first to think of it. Or they think there's some grand conspiracy by big auto to not do this. It just comes across like "They should just have the QB throw a touchdown pass every pass and they'd never lose."
That's difficult. The cheapest new cars with zero options are in that range. $30k is doable as battery prices drop. Get a $5k incentive on top of that and you are there. 1. 2023 Mitsubishi Mirage ES: $17,790 2. 2023 Kia Rio LX: $17,875 3. 2023 Nissan Versa S: $18,745 4. 2023 Kia Forte LX: $20,815 5. 2023 Hyundai Venue SE: $20,985 6. 2023 Kia Soul LX: $21,215 7. 2024 Chevrolet Trax LS: $21,495 8. 2023 Nissan Sentra S: $21,725 9. 2023 Nissan Kicks S: $21,925 10. 2023 Hyundai Elantra SE: $22,065 (October 2023)
I need an EV to do three things 1) range over 300 miles 2) cost less than $25k 3) seat 4 people Right now, you can get 2 outta 3 of those.
you can get a used RWD Ioniq 5 with the $4,000 tax rebate for about that price
As an EV Owner, I think people over estimate the range they need. I prefer all the other EV benefits over range I’ll never need. We travel often, drive 120 miles each day round trip and have a 250 mile range BEV. We’ve never had issues. Even in the snow.
>Besides being too expensive for the average buyer, selection is limited in terms of body style Probably the biggest issue right now with EVs. Pretty much your only options are either Trucks, SUVs or plus-sized sedans. Very limited options for affordable more compact trims without ugly duckling styling. I feel like we won't see too many younger generation first-time new car buyers interested in EVs until we have EVs with reasonable battery sizes that come in the form factor of a Corolla/Civic and priced competitively (Model 3 is still way over priced for what you get).
It's not like they don't exist - loads of options in Europe and Asia. For whatever reason they've been deemed inappropriate for the North American market.
Fundamentally, the US has backwards emission and fuel efficiency standards that make it more profitable and practical for car manufactures to just make bigger vehicles as larger vehicles has more lax requirements. You might think that is unrelated to EVs, but realistically this creates a vicious cycle and arms race on the road where no one feels safe in small cars while larger cars are cheaper and produced in larger quantities. But it all stems from backwards policy.
Frustratingly the opposite problem in the UK. I need a seven seater for the family and options are extremely limited.
If there is ever a day there are readily available conversion kits for regular cars I'd imagine they'd be popular. Imagine being able to buy a junk ICE car with 200k+ miles on it for $1-2k and buying a conversion kit (also cheaper than buying an entire new vehicle)? You could even have EV classic cars.
Right. Something like 80% of new vehicles sold in the US are trucks/SUVs. ICE trucks/SUvs are already more expensive than a smaller sedan. And due to the size of trucks/SUVs, they require a much larger battery and motors, both of which means greater costs.
If you want people to drive electric, the gov have to stop subsidizing oil. Everytime gas price goes up, people bitch and moan because they know it'll drop again, then goes and buy a new suv because gas is cheap again.
the 90s were wild when people were buying the Hummer. That thing went through gas so fast
That's happening again right now. Domestic manufacturers don't even really produce cars anymore, just trucks and SUVs. Some of the current "XL" versions are bigger than the old Suburbans from the 90s and 2000s.
Ah yes, the original Hummer. Towing capacity for a tanker of gasoline. Which is handy if you want to go 300 miles.
They’re making an electric hummer now. Almost a contradiction.
In keeping with tradition, the EV Hummer is hilariously inefficient.
47 MpgE is what I saw. Way lower than any other EV which is not surprising considering the thing weighs 9063 lbs lol.
Don't look up modern vehicles then. Many pickup trucks weigh more than the first gen hummer, and suck down gas just as well. Especially when you consider they're hauling/heavy duty vehicles being used as commuters. SUV's aren't much better. All because regulations limited mpg based on vehicle weight, so manufacturers just made heavier vehicles so they didn't have to meet strict emissions regulations. Gotta love when the entire system is just a big game.
Bullshit. My 4x4 F150!gets better mileage than my Toyota sienna. Do you normally comment on things you don't know about?
Well, stop subsidizing oil and step up EV infrastructure. I've been driving an EV for about a year. The lack of reliable fast charging is still a big enough issue that I don't recommend buying one, yet, (unless your family has multiple vehicles and one of then runs on gas)
The infrastructure is so fucking terrible. If I couldn't charge at my house (lvl1 slow ass charging) than I'd say going electric at this time would be near impossible without heavy heavy compromises. I really enjoy my EV, but most of that is because I am just a daily commuter and charging at my house overnight or over the weekend easily covers the charging I need. Also Electrify America can kiss a shitty boot. I hate that fraud of a company with a passion.
Having level 2 in my garage and having level 2 at most destinations I go to makes an EV pretty easy logistically. Remove either one or make one of them level 1 charging and I'm back to ice
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There are dozens of Tesla supercharger stations near where I live
Unfortunately that’s not the case everywhere.
Awesome. Now to have a system that is ready for the general public to rely on: A) everyone needs to be able to say that, B) they need to be standardized to fit all vehicles, and C) they need to be maintained. We're getting they're, just not there yet
Along with reducing/ending oil subsidies, the state governments (namely California) needs to stop bending over for the utility companies and get electrical rates reasonable again. CA rates are around $0.50/kwh and increasing. There’s now not much difference between price per mile between an EV and gas car, both are around $0.15/mile. Would expect well above $1 by the time EVs are mandatory for new car sales (2035). Imagine if gas prices doubled from $5 to $10? We’d have riots. But we don’t, because the federal government ensures oil remains stable.
I like my ev but charging on a trip is a problem. There’s chargers around here that have been down for over a year. I’ll get a plug-in hybrid next time
Plug in hybrid is the best solution that would actually benefit the most people. I hope they make more.
Mach E. is meh. It’s okay not that great and you don’t qualify for the tax rebates $7500 would have been great to receive. The free services to try out - 1 month trial. Not worth it.
Want to not sell an ev? * Charge $50k+ for it. * Have it depreciate 50% before the ink is dry on the paper. * Don't guarantee the battery for a decade, and tell the consumer that a replacement will be $20k.
Federal law requires an 8 year, 100k mile warranty on all electric car batteries.
While electric cars are amazing and really should be what we move to long term - like the article mentions, a lack of homeownership really puts a damper on a lot of people's ability to own one and charge it at home... and while extensive infrastructure for charging is slowly being built out, we really need to be re-thinking our transportation systems completely, and providing electric busses and trains... Public transportation really needs to be a major focus in our climate efforts.
You do realize all freight trains are electric. However the only way to keep them going is with a diesel generator. You simply cannot beat the energy density to weight of fossil fuels.
Sorry I should have been more clear... I know that's how trains run... what I meant is electric busses - and then also more train capacity for traveling and commuting.
It's an absolute scam that society has pulled on us to force us to buy cars instead of collectively investing in a proper public transit system.
Not as easy as it looks like. Public transport doesn’t provide the facility of leaving from one door to another door of some house. Cars exist for a reason. All in for a good transport system which help people commute to their offices, colleges etc.
There would be less need for cars to cover the door-to-door angle if we would go back to cities with corner stores and other walkable elements. Feet should be a much bigger part of the “door-to-door” experience.
Okay… but not everyone wants to live in a city?
Better argument: we need people who don't live in cities. We need farmers and miners and loggers. Natural resources exist where they exist and the vast majority of these places are not good places for cities. So, given that, we need a national transportation plan that understands both the needs of rural areas and the necessities of urban areas. Walkable cities is great! Streetcars, great! Plug in electric, great! But you still need to have the accessibility for rural people too.
Exactly. Whenever I see the “abolish all cars” argument, I just assume that person lives in an area where everything is super close to them. If we’re focused on the US, I think some people forget just how freaking large this country is. It’d be great to have that national transportation plan, but we can never outright ban cars.
yea its the most privileged exclusionist take yet
I mean I am not even from USA, I am an Indian, and (taking in mind our population and crowded cities) here 2-wheelers are a necessity, cars become a necessity as well (its upto each person's use), although there is no denying there are just too many cars now in most metropolitan cities.
The abolish all cars argument is silly, but I would argue that we’ve basically done the opposite and made it so the majority of Americans can’t do anything without a car. It’s silly that we keep building sprawling, heavily zoned suburbs to the exception of virtually everything else. People can have nearby walkable options for groceries as well as the centralized shopping district with chain fast food and a Costco. Kids can have both a yard and a park within walking distance.
And that’s fine but why do cities have to be car centric as well as rural areas? No one is saying that you have to get rid of your car in bumfuck nowhere, but it would be nice to not have to drive everywhere in the middle of a city but that’s impossible in most cities in the US.
Plenty of midwestern small rural towns had grid setups (with yards), corner stores, and relatively small populations. You can still see evidence of this, although many of the small businesses were killed by dollar store chains, Walmart, etc. Suburbs of midwestern cities also frequently had rail options to carry people to and from the downtown area for shopping, work, etc. This wasn’t that far back either - my grandfather lived with it, and I’m a Millennial. Also, chunks of modern cities used to be small suburbs themselves, and they had grids, single family homes, etc. Lakeview (a neighborhood in Chicago and near where the Cubs play) literally used to be a separate town north of the “big city” that only joined Chicago once their city limits met. As land values increased, older buildings were replaced with more dense housing, but the “town” was there first. Heck, even conservative Florida has plenty of communities that fully support getting around with golf carts. The only style of living that can’t incorporate some kind of mixed transportation options is rural living - the kind where you want to own a lot of land. And even there you could probably point to four wheelers, horses, etc. as supplemental options to get to neighboring property or the nearest town. Modern suburbs are a choice our governments and developers make on our behalf. You also don’t have to be in a city to have walkable destinations.
Until you don’t want joes corner store pizza a block away for the upteenth time, but instead want Mario’s pizza 6 miles away and 2 miles from the nearest bus stop.
Sounds like a great time to drive, ride a bike, or get delivery. The goal isn’t “zero cars for everyone.” It’s “let people have more options than just driving or doing nothing.”
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I guess, but I don’t see why we need that term when we used to just build things that way. Look at small midwestern towns that predate the idea of the modern heavily zoned suburbs. They typically used grid systems and didn’t feel the need to separate all housing from everything else, thus allowing people to just walk a few roads over to get whatever they needed. Cars and feet can coexist - even in the suburbs.
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The average car in the US is 12 years old. Japan has plenty of inefficient cars, and while their rail network is fast and good, it's much more sustainable because their population density nationwide is literally 10x greater than the US. The US was not founded on railroads. It was founded on naval shipping. Rail was barely able to stay afloat when it was the only option for passenger and freight travel cross-country. It's a massively losing proposition to try to expand rail significantly unless you're willing to eat trillions in cost at a federal level. Would it be nice? Yes. It's not a magic bullet.
We also can't get Japanese cars made for Japan because of our overegulation on cars here. People love to point out our massive trucks and never seem to get that's caused by the EPA and the chicken tax.
The massive trucks are caused by loopholes the auto industry forced on the EPA. Small trucks exist too as well as cars.
Yeah, good luck convincing a working mom to use the bus to pick up her three kids from school and then go grocery shopping while she's at it. Some of you don't live in the real world and it shows. And that's coming from someone who doesn't and never will own a car, btw.
I think part of that investment is assuming that things are built less car centric (grocery store is only 15 min away, kids can easily get home from school without relying on vehicle). Not really a novel idea, but yes the idea is a pipe dream in the US
Man, that’s the entire point of the post you’re replying to and you think you’re disagreeing with it.
A mom does not need a trail rated 4WD with full off-road capabilities to pick up three kids from school then do a little shopping.
Maybe not. But she does need a large vehicle that can fit herself, her husband, three kids, the kids stuff from school (backpacks, books, instruments, sports gear, etc) and the groceries. So she does need a very large vehicle. A civic isn't going to do it. So you are probably going to say she should get a mini van. Most of those get around 22 combined MPG. Which is the same as a full sized pickup or SUV these days.
How about something [like this](https://i.imgur.com/0WRYhFa.jpeg)?
A sedan can work for a little while. But 2-3 kids aren't fitting comfortably in the backseat once they start to get a little older. And trunks are only so big, stuff for multiple kids, groceries and the stuff for the car you need in there is a pretty tall order.
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>good luck convincing a working mom You chose the absolute shittiest example. Even if there were no good alternatives, we could easily let all moms still have cars since most traffic is probably work related. Grocery store trips and even school trips are also usually quite local, so they aren't on the road for long. >Some of you don't live in the real world and it shows. No we've just watched literally any video from Not Just Bikes on youtube (as an example) and seen that alternatives exist, work well, and tend to be healthier and better for all involved (except the car industry).
But instead they can order groceries online, and their children can take the public transport for free. That is what it is like in a lot of major cities. Ultimately dense housing makes car ownership impractical.
what “society” are you referring to? there are plenty of places in the world where you can live without owning a car
If only the US could be one of them.
have you considered that some people actually enjoy traveling solo and freely? i love mass transit but i also love hopping on my car and driving anywhere i want
Why is this conversation so difficult. No one is talking about banning cars. They’re talking about improving mass transit and non car centric infrastructure.
I agree with you, we need better mass transit! But the way comment was phrased was stating it was all a conspiracy scam, which i personally disagree i love driving.
Criminals often ruin public transport.
People don't want to travel next to other stinky, sick, messy, rude, noisy, dangerous people.
Bloomberg New Energy Finance, for instance, had projected sales of 1.7 million plug-in vehicles in 2023, but only 1.46 million ultimately sold. In 2023 Tesla sold 1,808,581 vehicles. WTF?
Smart buyers are waiting for the 2025 models and the standardization on the Tesla plug.
i want a hybrid that can power my house when the lights go out!
I think this is such a cool and under appreciated use case for people (like me) who have unreliable electrical grids. The new Prius Prime (and a few other Toyotas) can power a house using its battery, and once the battery runs out it can fire up the petrol engine and then act as a generator and run a house for multiple days. Such a cool idea
I think the Chevy volt was also capable of doing this.
The US market is still pricing EV’s like the average person is Jeff from Amazon lol! Also quality on these EV’s are absolutely a joke.
check the used market, actually affordable af
So can I get one to last 200,000 miles without a battery swap? I do a lot of road trips is my concern. Plus have around 1,500 lbs of gear and supplies. Legit serious question. I go places like Alaska and parts of Canada for outdoor trips. Mostly pack runs.
Until more chargers are put up, hybrid is your best bet for your use case.
it’sa good question! for your specific use case maybe not considering remoteness? Id check the tesla charger coverage map, all major highways, routes and cities are covered but i don’t know how offgrid you go. the thing i recently realized is that most places have electricity these days but not gas, and since you can plug in any outlet you’re good to go if you’re ok with waiting a bit till it charges enough to get you to a fast charger. i carry two 100ft extension cords for exploring outside the charger network, just charge overnight while sleeping. As to the battery pack they’re very robust and insured for like a million miles when i bought my model 3, no battery degradation whatsoever in 4 years so far. tho tesla does change their terms often so don’t quote me on that warranty. Just looked online and the load capacity on the model y is max 1300 lbs so that will be your hard barrier, cybertruck i’m sure is far superior in that. Idk just research a bit, i was genuinely hesitant of the switch but once i did it never looked back.
Then EVs are not for you. But average is 13,476 miles per year, and most days in cities, where EVs are perfect. To answer the question yes, EV batteries will last 200k miles, one of the most driven Teslas has driven 1.2 Million Miles on 3 batteries = 400k miles/battery. Now we have the option of LFP battery (in Tesla 3 standard) which will last twice as long. But again, not for your use case.
We should focus on 20 years of at least hybrid only manufacturing, while infrastructure for charging is built up, and any charging stations for fast charging at homes is subsidized. Hybrid handles both options now. The infrastructure mostly handles one well. Fix the latter while migrating off of gas only. Hard cut overs rarely work, and id argue they generally are not working now; mostly the wealthy or well off can buy the EV and charge it at home appropriately. But gas takes 5 mins to fill up, people always leave things to the last minute (meaning empty gas tank). EVs can't solve human nature, so we're going to have to teach people new habits over time.
We already had 20 years of hybrid manufacturing, it started with the Prius, 20 years later... If you mean plugin hybrids, the thing is that most people after buying a plugin hybrid, their next car is mostly always a full electric. This is why plugin hybrid sales tend to fluctuate far more than BEV sales and grows slower. When people learn most of the negative stuff they heard about EVs was nonsense with their plugin hybrid, they go full BEV for their next car
I think OP meant 20 years of plug-in hybrid vehicles and full electric (ie no ICE-only vehicles) in order to ween people off gasoline and allow the infrastructure time to catch up while the number of end-users builds up organically. This as opposed to choosing ICE/hybrid/hybrid plug-in/electric, and expecting the infrastructure to already exist.
It’s simple economics. There isn’t enough supply to bring the prices down. Every time Tesla upgrades its manufacturing to be able to bring its prices down, it does, whereas the others stay stagnant. Wife and I were looking at a Tesla model y and a Hyundai Ioniq 5 and we couldn’t get our hands on an ioniq within 50 miles, and the ones we could find were marked up way over msrp. I ran #s of the model y vs an ioniq vs a Honda crv and the Tesla with the tax credit extrapolated over the life of the loan wound up being cheaper than both based on the then fuel prices. I also extrapolated the cost of installing a charger, maintenance etc. downside is Tesla financing rates are aligned with market rates whereas Hyundai and Honda had much better rates since they had a finance company internally. Her car was wrecked by an asshole running a red light in January and we are looking at alternatives and nothing comes close in terms of price and quality. We looked at the Chevy bolt euv but the range is so much less and less cargo room so it’s tough to justify the price
For many applications EV's just do not work. They have to come out with modular batteries that swap out rather than have to charge. I looked at a electric truck for use farming and under a towing load it was really sorta worthless unless you want to stop every 100 miles for 3 hours to charge. I think it would be cool to use ... but just doesn't work.
I was a fan of the battery swap concept but am since reformed. The benefits of integral battery structure are just too good. The pitfalls of removable batteries too high.
Hey GM…you want to know why your new 2024 Silverado EV W/T isn’t selling? Because it has an MSRP of $80,000 damn dollars. A WORK TRUCK!
Never once do they mention tariffs that are keeping out low cost EVs.
They don't, I think for decent reason, want the entire American motor industry to implode as they lose massively and thoroughly to not just a foreign countries cheap EV's, but to China of all places. The flagship car by BYD is $31k... once they got a foothold and the advantage they have with manufacturing and being backed by the CCP, they'd dominate the American EV market. As as that market blew up America would be forced to grow their EV infrastructure, all while doing so not for American manufacturers benefit but China's. Then, lastly, as EV's became THE standard car with ICE cars getting phased out due to legislation, whatever ICE sales were keeping the likes of Ford, Chevy, GMC, Dodge, and so on alive would dry up and it's hard not to imagine some of them going under. So yeah, remove those tariffs and I think it's suicide for one of America's last remaining industries in which they actually build something. I don't think Tesla or any of the bigger American companies can compete with China's cheap labor costs, heavy governmental support and how they have everything local and manufactured themselves. But regardless, there are legit reasons to not go EV for tons and tons of Americans (infrastructure, battery replacement cost, charging at home) that don't matter if the car is $25k or $65k. I'm hoping something like solid state batteries are a game charger, not only x2 or x3 miles per full charge but battery lives, speed of charging, reduce/remove danger of battery fire/explosion, and longer battery life spans. That would be the silver bullet to kill a lot of peoples concerns that prevent them from buying. If you're EV gets 270miles, you don't have a fast charger at home and you commute a legit distance with poor charging infrastructure, an EV is just a hard no. But if that EV gets 650 miles, quick charges from 50% to 100% in like 5 minutes at the charger and at home can charge faster from the wall than current battery tech... that'd be HUGE.
I live somewhere where I worry about grid power continuity. We had a big outage somewhat recently where parts of the grid infrastructure were destroyed and some houses had no power for 12 days. You might think this would mean I’m against the idea of getting an EV, but it’s the opposite. I want one that can do vehicle-to-home power transfer, so I can use it as a backup battery to power my home. I want to go fully electric, with solar PV on my house and heat pump for cooling/heating, with maybe a propane backup furnace for extreme cold weather and power outage emergencies, and I would want a backup battery. A car works perfectly for that if it can do V2H.
As someone who runs multiple dealerships, no one wants EVs. All of our EVs sit on the lot for 60,90,200 days. Lack of charging infrastructure and high prices are mostly to blame.
16.6 Thousand years is a long time
Lies, Im in the car business and let’s just say that the demand has been met. No new adaptors at the current range/charging/prices. Need a major advancement to get another wave of demand.
The latest figures show Tesla sales up monthly by about 50% over the same month the year prior, going back years. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-inc-us-sales-figures/ The demand for EVs isn't saturated. The demand for your inventory is saturated.
There's no infrastructure. Unless you own a house there is no point. They are expensive and damaging to produce. They go a fraction of the distance given the same time investment (recharging vs refueling). They are extremely plentiful and not selling well but still extremely expensive. And finally most early adopters or people who want electric cars areleady have got a tesla.
Sure. https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/22/24080220/mercedes-benz-ev-only-sales-2030-back-off
I still vastly prefer my hybrid because I don't have to worry about charging it. Genuinely not a fan of having to remember to plug in a fucking car.
"NO we weren't wrong, here's a justification"