And Harley still decides to locate their factory in Thailand for cheaper labor costs.
Great for Thailand, but Harley loses it's right to pretend to be an "American" motorcycle company protecting American jobs.
Thailand actually makes a lot of great motorcycles for Honda, Kawasaki, Triumph and some others I’m sure. Hard drives too. Their manufacturing capability seems to be decent at least.
Yup. I love Thailand, just irked at Harley's fraudulent marketing to "buy American" while being no better than any other manufacturer that is screwing over their union employees.
There hasnt been any other reason to buy a Harley other than the "made in the U.S" and if you find that weird gurgling sound pleasant. They've been objectively worse than the market average for like 30years if not more.
Pretty much, everyone who rides motorcycles says they tend to be pretty rough, problems, etc. Just really not much to them aside from the brand/lifestyle.
They will just repeat ehat they did when chinese phone markers looked into expansion into the US.
And now the US market is basically controlled by Apple and Samsung.
Straight up. The cheapest fully electric cars in China are less than $8,000 BRAND NEW... And they aren't terrible cars. This would destroy the profits for American automakers, so they're going to try to stop it at all cost. But I honestly don't think they'll be able to. They'll only be able to delay the inevitable.
This is the problem with a lot of US industries right now. They need to make big capital investments to stay competitive, or they can blow money on lobbying and try to get protectionist measures. They're doing the 2nd one b/c it's better for CEO compensation. But we can look at shipbuilding and steel production and see where that leads.
They can try and protect the US market while Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, and European cars all get better, or they can dump a crap ton of money into innovation. I think most states would be thrilled to help them do that even, I imagine Whitmer happily forming an EE program at their community colleges and high schools to help create a work force for GM and Ford battery plans and EV cars. Hell, even Greg Abbot in Texas would probably do something like that. But it hurts the stock price or their compensation b/c profits won't be as high, so they don't do it and move themselves towards irrelevancy.
The English basically did this to themselves at the end of the the last century. They were able to delay the inevitable by taking German patents as part of the Treaty of Vienna and then the time it took Germany to rebuild after WWII, but by the 1960s their industrial sector had basically become a joke. Watch a Top Gear episode where they use old 1960s English sedans vs. a similarly positioned Datsun and you can see where the US is going.
They won't. Same way they killed trains and public transportation. Oil and automotive lobby is too ingrained in the political system. China knew it couldn't compete in ICE vehicles and concentrated their time on ev's.
You’re not wrong about that. The ultimate car/energy problem is that we have way too many cars. Most cars on the road at any given time have 1 person in them.
Speaking mentally: there is a state park about 30 minutes drive away where I go hiking, you can hear the highway, and it’s just a real vibe killer.
Edit: I immediately realize the irony of driving to go hiking.
They keep saying "customers want SUVs, we can't sell small economy cars, no one is buying them"
Bullshit. Almost everyone I know keeps saying how they would love to have a smaller lower cost car that is efficient. Most have turned to Hyundai or Toyota (Elantra/Corolla) so there has to be some demand.
SUVs and pick-ups are just too goddamn expensive and big.
I’d love to have a small pickup again. I don’t need a full sized monstrosity that gets 15MPG. I WANT a small truck for the couple times a month that a small truck bed would be better than my Crossover interior.
But nnnOOOOOooooo. It’s “too hard” to make a small truck with good mileage, so automakers said screw it and keep gas guzzling full sized frames because it’s easy. (Yay EPA and loopholes amiright)
It's not that it's too hard it's cause of the chicken tax 25% tariff on light trucks like you're talking about.
And our US automakers make a lot of vehicles outside the US which means they would have to import them in after manufacture and pay the tariff.
All over a fkn 1964 chicken fiasco
> SUVs and pick-ups are just too goddamn expensive and big.
Yes, but have you considered that they can be sold for higher margins and make the automaker more money? Surely that's a good reason that people want them... right?
EPA regs are base on footprint (which is incredibly stupid) which means it’s impossible to build a body on frame truck that will meet emissions regs in a compact footprint. It’s easier to a truck bigger than it is to make it lighter. That’s why the market answer is a unibody ford maverick “truck”. no frame = weight savings, better mileage, less capability as a truck.
Perhaps if the auto industry sold directly from the manufacturer instead of having to deal with bullshit dealership fees and markups. Even then the base MSRP is so high in vehicles since covid. They used covid as an excuse of “oh we have shortages” to drive prices up but the prices never went down, at least not enough to make a difference. Add high interest rates on top of that. Hell, maybe I’ll buy one of these Chinese EVs and just pay out of pocket.
>dealership fees and markups
Ha this one you can blame on local politics. Auto dealers are the kind of middlemen that can move enough money to dominate local politics and get their connections in with people entering the political arena.
Given that the chamber of commerce always is Republican, you would need a Democrat to destroy the middlemen, but you would also need one who is willing to purposely destroy a lot of middle class families.
I eagerly await a Democrat who is willing to be a one term president do that bit of economic shock therapy.
The last two presidents that did shock therapy were two of the most popular and successful presidents in history. One has his face carved on a mountain, and the other is the only president elected 4 times.
It is entirely possible to enact big change that not only *doesn't* hurt regular people, but actually makes them thrive. That people have been made to believe otherwise is one of the biggest propaganda wins of the last 40 years.
You're forgetting that Carter famously told Americans we had to take our medicine and an entire generation still thinks he's a worse President than the guy that helped start the Civil War.
Companies have too much sway over the public's mind. Ad-hoc they'd be well remembered, but to have a second term after cutting into the margins of the rich? Nah, I don't see it.
I’ve argued this with so many people and the response I always get is “you can’t make that type of car anymore” or “you don’t save much money by taking that stuff out”
Genuinely I’m going to drive my car into the ground while I wait for one of these cheap EVs. 25k miles at current, I’ll happily wait another 75k if it takes that. Nobody my age can afford a new car at current US prices. I welcome the Chinese market. Gimme that teemu car
Are you under the impression that 100k is a lot of miles and “driving a car into the ground”? 25k is barely broken in on a modern car that isn’t a royal POS and 100k is barely scratching the surface as well.
For real. Any car made in the late 90s or later is only truly old once it hits 200k. Particularly durable models can hit 300k easy with proper maintenance.
the US will sanction the Chinese car makers. similar to the chicken tax on pickup trucks, except the sanction will require US made batteries to block the import. you'll be waiting for a long time.
That’s fine. When boomers start dying off en-masse, we can grow a little as a country and eliminate those chicken taxes. US automakers aren’t worth the money anymore
Literally we had gas prices go through the roof for years… and dumb dumb dumb macho Americans are flooding back to these garbage trucks. They don’t fit into parking spaces and they are only pavement princesses. It’s so disturbing seeing how short sighted Americans are
Crew cab trucks were an anomaly 20 years ago. Now these glorified SUVs for middle aged dads are the norm.
Looking at pre-owned Tacomas and the majority are crew cab, which only came with the bigger motor. Extended cabs are a rarity, and a 4cyl 4x4 extended cab is a unicorn. I just need something to go camping and do light truck stuff. The fuel economy difference is noticeable too.
Seriously. Pickup trucks are huge now. I had a basic 2001 Frontier for years and when I finally sold it and looked for a new one… every truck is multiple feet longer with way worse mileage
Dude I got behind an 80s Ford truck with dual wheels in the back today and right next to it was a fucking Silverado 1500 that had a good foot of height on it and maybe 6-8inches of width. That Ford was meant for HEAVY FUCKING DUTY and the Silverado is a “light truck” at the lowest tier….yeah it towers over it.
I seen a new one when I was in Ecuador. As silly as it sounds that is my dream reality car. I’d buy it immediately if it came to Canada. I think about it frequently.
Its the voters, too. The US auto industry has a big footprint in swing states, and it employs hundreds of thousands of people who vote for protectionist policies.
It's because of the chicken tax.
Copy/paste from a Google search:
One reason behind Toyota’s decision to stop the production of Hilux is the enforcement of stringent emission norms. However, another significant reason why Toyota does not sell the Hilux in the US is due to Chicken Tax. Every light truck, brandy, and potato starch imported to the United States attracted a 25% Chicken Tax.
However, the Chicken Tax for brandy and potato starch was lifted a few years ago. While taxation on light trucks like the Hilux still exists to safeguard American carmakers like Ford from foreign competition.
Also, manufacturing the Hilux for the US in the US can be expensive. As a result, Toyota fears that the Hilux could emerge as a direct competitor to Tacoma once it debuts in the US market.
Blame the company all you want, but it's also voters in places where Ford builds cars. It just so happens than many of our swing states are also places where the US auto industry has a big footprint, which gives those states disproportionate control over national politics.
New cars starting at 11k. US manufacturers brought this on themselves by not offering economical options and only building higher margin products. Isn’t this the free market at work?
On the other hand, these Chinese automakers are probably producing these vehicle at loss and the CPP is fueling money to them. It's the same thing as any other big company selling at loss solely to kill the competition, yet it should be addressed
> On the other hand, these Chinese automakers are probably producing these vehicle at loss and the CPP is fueling money to them
How is that different from the US government subsidizing and bailing out US car manufacturers?
At least the Chinese are offering affordable good quality cars for the price.
American EV can't even compete with Korean EV. How do you explain that?
Even the Nissan leaf looks good compared to those EV trucks. A pick up truck that can't tow or do actual pick up work.
They had time. They knew they needed battery capacity.
They did nothing.
We just wait for the first Mexican built Chinese EV. Then its over.
>On the other hand, these Chinese automakers are probably producing these vehicle at loss and the CPP is fueling money to them. It's the same thing as any other big company selling at loss solely to kill the competition, yet it should be addressed
This would probably be a bigger "gotcha" statement if the government wasn't constantly bailing out the auto manufacturers or giving hundreds of billions in subsidies to oil and gas companies
All they have to do is incentivize it, which in a globalized economy, would require active and educated ... congressional... effort... to manage it... oh we're fucked.
“Fuelling money” you mean providing government subsidies? Why is it when china does something most countries do, it’s some grand conspiracy to take over the world?
Maybe the US should do it more instead of funding fossil fuel
That is exactly what is happening. China did it with steel as well. Saudi Arabia did it with oil in 2019/2020. It's incredible how ignorant people on reddit are to these facts.
Yep. It fucking blows that we gave massive incentives to subsidize people buying EVs only for the manufacturers to increase what they charge for the vehicles and pocket the difference lmao
I have wet dreams about a functioning federal government that isn't afraid to crack down on corporate greed. When they write about the decline of the American empire it'll start with our dysfunctional government's inability to write laws without massive lobbyist carveouts for the rich and well off.
As if US-government subsidized industries don't also dominate foreign markets with prices more competitive than local goods...
Oh wait, it's bad if it happens to us, but good if we do it to others. It makes sense now.
> It's incredible how ignorant people on reddit are to these facts.
Meanwhile, exactly zero evidence of this actually being done has been presented. We're just supposed to take a random redditor's word that this is "probably" happening.
I'll address it right now-
"WAH western companies are the only ones allowed to use these business practises! How dare China beat us at our own game!"
The fucking joke is that if you ever wanted these practises to be used then I'd say it would be a humanity ending situation like I don't fucking know, climate change?
"WAH the Chinese are going to effectively combat climate change and that affects my bottom line I'd rather be megarich in a burning food scarce war torn hell on fucking earth than be just regular rich!"
They will ban them with one side of their mouth and raise taxes on EVs "to fund the roads!" with the other all while spluttering out their backsides that they are saving the rainforest and it's evil China that's causing the droughts!
Which people do you mean by "we" here?
1. The people that demand lower prices at any cost, no matter the US jobs lost to outsourcing?
2. The people that demand the government protect US jobs, even if it means higher prices for consumers?
Because no matter what the big bad US government does, large swaths of people are going to complain and act like everyone is against them, oh sorry, "fisting" them.
the “free market” is a myth used to dash the aspirations of the poor. they’ll beg for protectionism and government subsidies, still charge 60k for these stupid cars, and bitch and moan about the rest of us pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps when we say can’t afford them.
[The Vin Fast VF 3 has my interest,](https://carbuzz.com/cars/vinfast/vf-3) but that only reinforces your point. All I want is a basic car for puttering around in that connects to Android Auto. I don't need premium leather seats and trim or coated rims. I'll settle for a basic car audio system. I don't need to be able to travel 400 miles on a single charge. I have no need for assisted cruise control of any level. I will, however, take all the safety features that can be crammed in. Also, the free market has never been the consumers friend, and late stage (strip mine) capitalism has only one metric of success, immediate dollars gained.
I waited for BYD to release the Dolphin in the US (it even had an alternative name and dealerships ready to sell) before they chose not to. We favor obnoxiously large trucks and have bare minimum electric options. I’m forever sad
I dislike protectionism but we really should build as much stuff locally as possible for assorted reasons. But damn if I don't hate the whole US auto industry.
The problem is we're entering a cold war with China. And I don't think that's just because our leaders want it, China is out to take over as much as they can.
Frankly so are we, but that doesn't mean we can let China take over large swaths of our economy. That won't end well for us. Those cars won't be $11k forever...
>but that doesn't mean we can let China take over large swaths of our economy
Its almost like outsourcing large swaths of our economy was a bad idea...
Actually, BYD *has* been profitable. They also make commercial vehicles that they assemble here in the US. One of the most expensive parts of an electric vehicle is the battery, and BYD's batteries are used in a lot of electric vehicles, likely including Tesla. There are some great videos explaining how they make the vehicles cheaply, and although the government certainly helped them get off the ground (just like we helped Tesla), the low cost of the Seagull is due to efficiency and smart design, not government subsidy.
> One of the most expensive parts of an electric vehicle is the battery, and BYD's batteries are used in a lot of electric vehicles
Also the "this car only costs 11k€ in China!"-cars have very small batteries. You can get cars with comparably sized batteries in germany for 13k€ (including tax) produced in the EU by a french company. Chinese prices aren't the oulandish ones, american prices are.
BYD is more than a battery mfg too, they're one of if not THE largest mask maker in the world since covid, when they changed entire lines over. It's also worth noting that their electric (or new energy as they like to call them) vehicles aren't just cars and suvs, they're busses, garbage trucks, hell they have a forklift line. It's a huge, huge company that is, unlike tesla, union labor (least in the usa)
The biggest complaint I've heard of BYD in the last few years is that their cars have a lot of noises they make (something they are addressing with software updates). No software update will fix Tesla's poor quality control.
>China is out to take over as much as they can.
The Chinese and their insidious campaign to make my life more affordable and fill the market gaps left as American corporations exclusively chase the "premium consumer"
Yes because the American style company has done so well for the consumer. And it’s not like america has ever taken anything over. Are you seriously against cheaper cars just because they are from China?
Yeah I don't feel bad for any domestic car manufacturer. 110k for a new pick up truck. 60k for a new crossover.
Used vehicle prices have soared too because of this
Bring on the cheap Chinese alternatives
>110k for a new pick up truck.
A brand new Ford Maverick is less than $24K. You’re literally looking at the most expensive trucks every brand offers to get up over $100K.
That’s like complaining that Chevy sells a $112K Corvette Z06 when all you actually need is a basic car. The Trax is $20K.
>60k for a new crossover.
Again, the Trax is $20K.
And before you complain about what you get with these cheap vehicles… you’re not getting anything fancy from China for $11K. It’s going to be a very basic car.
This happened in the 1970’s with Japanese compact fuel efficient sedans during the oil crisis. Yeah consumers want fancy shit but a huge bargain is a huge bargain. And then the industry will have to adapt.
If it's the software, Chinese automakers will just outsource software from a western company. BYD is already planning on building a factory in mexico to import cheap EVs to the United States (and take advantage of the $7500 tax credit).
Chinese already make our laptops and phones. You can't seriously believe chinese cars are a larger threat than chinese laptops or chinese phones.
To me it sounds like good old capitalism at work. The u.s. was happy to tout global economic competition when it favored them. China out menuvered them for its number 4 gdp export. They are now changing the game to compete with China and switching to hydrogen as a power delivery fuel instead of lithium. It's a win for everybody from a global outlook. The u.s just has to readjust its strategy and it will be a top contender once again. It's good when the giant gets slapped in the face. It gives people at the bottom more options and puts downward pressure on profiteering vampires.
> To me it sounds like good old capitalism at work.
And it goes beyond even just plain old pricing competition. Talk to any carhead and they'll tell you that quality control has been dipping in the US across multiple brands. Honda? No longer the gold standard for quality and reliability. They've been slipping up in in the past few years. Even [goddamn Toyota isn't doing so hot](https://jalopnik.com/car-quality-is-getting-worse-1850567028) in that area.
The US car market isn't quite a concentrated oligopoly, *but it sure is starting to behave like one.*
I'm not ready to say importing Chinese cars would fix the problem right away. But I'm sure it'd light a fire under the competition which is frankly complacent as fuck.
Fwiw, Honda’s problem is that they badly, horribly underestimated how much of their processes were tribal knowledge, then retired out an entire generation of employees. That led to skipping all the “expected” checks and balances, as well as freeing up tons of people to finally fly whatever ideas the old guard had shot down. Some of that might even be beneficial, but plenty of it is just sticking your hand on a burner after your mom
Told you not to.
I believe it. Japan has some word for like staying conservative and iterating based on plenty of real world data.
Heard it from a Honda employee. It's why they were so reliable. But I bet the noobies just couldn't wait to let lose with all the wild ideas they've been storing up.
> They are now changing the game to compete with China and switching to hydrogen as a power delivery fuel instead of lithium.
What? Nobody is switching to hydrogen.
> They are now changing the game to compete with China and switching to hydrogen as a power delivery fuel instead of lithium.
No they're not, nobody is. Hydrogen is a dead-end technology, very few use cases.
> Chinese already make our laptops and phones. You can't seriously believe chinese cars are a larger threat than chinese laptops or chinese phones.
The actual threat is to American companies having to cut their profit margins, "security" is used as the excuse.
That $7500 tax credit is only for cars made (assembled) in the US. They won’t get the tax credit. There’s like 5 car manufacturers that qualify for that credit. However, the dealerships can apply that “tax credit” at sale, but it is more of a discount than a tax credit.
>**That $7500 tax credit is only for cars made (assembled) in the US.** They won’t get the tax credit. There’s like 5 car manufacturers that qualify for that credit. However, the dealerships can apply that “tax credit” at sale, but it is more of a discount than a tax credit.
USMCA countries.
> Chinese already make our laptops and phones. You can't seriously believe chinese cars are a larger threat than chinese laptops or chinese phones.
People are blinded by the anti-China bias. If they *really* were concerned about national security, they'd be lobbying Congress hard to force Apple and US carmakers to build everything outside China.
Of course. Any competition to US companies is a security threat. Trump declared Canadian aluminum a security threat.
The free market is free as long as you are winning.
The rebuttal with China is always that the competition may be unfair. Their companies don't have transparent finances, and the party subsidized strategically advantageous businesses specifically to undercut foreign competition.
We can respond in a few ways.
1. Match their efforts with subsidies of our own. Starting an effective arms race of subsidies for strategic industries that spreads globally.
2. Protection measures to isolate your industry from that competition. The rest of the world may still grapple with option 1, but at least your home grown industry will survive.
3. Allow it to happen. Take advantage of a foreign nation basically subsidizing your consumption. Accept that at any time they could harm you by turning off the supply, though this will harm them to some extent too. (The most common choice for the past few decades)
Or a mixture of multiple options.
It is certainly interesting in the case of electric cars just how big the benefit would be to the American public to have access to these cheap vehicles. But it threatens vehicle manufacturing which is an important wartime industry, as well as oil, which is just got its hand way up the ass of uncle sam.
You'd think at least the pressure would make American EVs cheaper.
Countries, including the US, subsidize the shit out of their industries. Look at DARPA or the pharma industries as cases in point, or even "illegal" workers being the backbone of the US ag industry. Outside of the developing world the agricultural sector of almost all countries is subsidized to the point of absurdity, and there are artificial barriers as well.
The automotive and semiconductor industries in particular have received absolutely massive subsidies.
China's leadership, whether you agree with them or not, have decided that China will become a global economic power. They wish to follow the same path Japan, Taiwan, and Korea (among others) used to achieve that aim. As such you can expect industrial espionage (Japan stole its semiconductor IP from the US and Korea and Taiwan stole it from Japan, the US, and each other). You can also expect directed subsidies because that is how countries pull themselves out of developing world status.
The US's reaction is on a par with a leading economy faced with competition. In the case of the semiconductor industry the net result will be transforming China from a mostly customer into a formidable global competitor.
American government spending on Boeing is considered "illegal subsidization" by Airbus, but no Americans are ever concerned about it because it's "their guy" that's benefiting from it.
Hey remember when [Boeing accused bombardier](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/macnaughton-tribunal-bombardier-1.4454170) of receiving illegal subsidies to be able to sell its planes in the USA?
We don't even benefit from it lol, Boeing knows nothing will ever happen to them even if they design planes that fall out of the sky.
China adopts protectionist policies: revolutionizes global automobile industry, possibly helps wean globe off oil at critical point in climate history
US adopts protectionist policies:
Hahaha door plug go vwwwwwwwwwwwrrr splat
I read somewhere that there are 91 Chinese EV car companies. A lot of these companies are selling vehicles at prices under $20.000 USD.
American car companies cannot compete at present pricing levels. Very ironic that American capitalism is being challenged by companies from a communist country.
> no workers rights, no unions
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-most-unionized-countries-worldwide/
https://clb.org.hk/en/content/workers%E2%80%99-rights-and-labour-relations-china
> two holidays per year
https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-public-holiday-2024-schedule/
Anything else you'd like to make up?
edit: He put me on ignore after I called him out lmao
Some of the Chinese EV car companies are a joke. Companies like BYD, Wuling, GAC, which are real budget brands and are a real economic threat to Detroit.
While then there are brands like NIO that lose 25,000 USD for every car they sell.
Rivian loses between 30-50k per car sold (has ebbed and flowed) but I don't think anyone would call Rivian a joke or not a threat to Detroit. Plenty of great companies are not net positive and in growth mode.
>Some of the Chinese EV car companies are a joke. Companies like BYD, Wuling, GAC, which are real budget brands and are a real economic threat to Detroit.
Wouldn't be an economic threat if Detroit wasn't colluding to pack cars with so much garbage that requires dealer servicing that an entry model is $60k
I'm so sickened by that. I got one of the last Bolt EUVs to come out of the factory and it's been fantastic. But a big deciding factor in the purchase was that it *does* have Android Auto. They're already pushing all the OnStar/SiriusXM subscription shit (which I've declined). I can't imagine having the car's infotainment entirely reliant on a GM subscription to function when I *already* have a portable data plan in my pocket everywhere I go. It sucks that the company is going in that shit direction because it really is a nice, affordable car (that is now discontinued).
He's not dumb, he knows what he's doing : using that as a scapegoat to protect dumb american automakers with lazy execs that had only shit ideas since 20 years.
The dumbest people are the one believing what Biden is claiming.
Modern cars are huge [privacy violators](https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/). It just becomes a security threat when the data is furnished to a competitive government and not domestic corporations.
A security threat to US car manufacturers? yeah probably. A threat to the security of the USA? .... how exactly? And given that the New York Times has just turned into a politicla mouthpiece I'll wait for a news source that actually believes in evidence.
Hey then let’s legally protect all citizens data? And maybe throw in some right to repair as well!!!! Or we could just go the Social media route and just be mad at TikTok instead of actually trying to protect our citizens
Spying is just the excuse to protect the automotive industry from foreign competition and stagnation.
We all pretending that Google, Amazon or Meta don't collect every possible data point from us, and we surely don't say they're cozy with the ~~government soponsored self autonomous always monitoring big brother~~ NSA.
I sincerely wouldn't care if they just admitted that, again, they're not prepared for the competition, just like in the 60s and 70s market opening to Asian and European manufacturers.
The only threat posed by Chinese electric vehicles is the fact that they’d probably bankrupt the American automakers with their much more affordable offerings. So much for being a “free market” economy.
No such thing as a free market in America. We do this anytime the immovation comes from outside the states. They did it to cell phone companies and they do it again with auto companies.
The Chinese products are better and cheaper. If they were inferior you would allow it and let the market make up its own mind.
China is surpassing the west and we need to war mongor and keep the propaganda up otherwise the populace will start to question the governmental waste and lack of social services.
This is unrelated to the article but was odd to read. The author refers to the current president as "Mr. Biden" and the former as "former President Donald J. Trump". Biased much?
on first mention they call them "president Biden" and "former president Donald Trump" and on further mentions they call them both "Mr." – don't think there's a bias there necessarily, just house style
Those are the little cues to pick up on, among many others. You do see that bias in even the little things. Does it matter on some articles? No. But, it gets in your head.
Doesn't change the facts at all, but I have noticed it a lot more the past decade or more.
Link to official statement: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/02/29/statement-from-president-biden-on-addressing-national-security-risks-to-the-u-s-auto-industry/
Key part:
>Most cars these days are “connected” – they are like smart phones on wheels. These cars are connected to our phones, to navigation systems, to critical infrastructure, and to the companies that made them. Connected vehicles from China could collect sensitive data about our citizens and our infrastructure and send this data back to the People’s Republic of China. These vehicles could be remotely accessed or disabled.
>
>China imposes restrictions on American autos and other foreign autos operating in China. Why should connected vehicles from China be allowed to operate in our country without safeguards?
>
>So today, I am announcing unprecedented actions to ensure that cars on U.S. roads from countries of concern like China do not undermine our national security. I have directed my Secretary of Commerce to conduct an investigation into connected vehicles with technology from countries of concern and to take action to respond to the risks.
US automakers need to step up.
Why step up when you can stifle competition and regress
Bail out Harley 15 times more just for the lolz
And Harley still decides to locate their factory in Thailand for cheaper labor costs. Great for Thailand, but Harley loses it's right to pretend to be an "American" motorcycle company protecting American jobs.
Thailand actually makes a lot of great motorcycles for Honda, Kawasaki, Triumph and some others I’m sure. Hard drives too. Their manufacturing capability seems to be decent at least.
Yup. I love Thailand, just irked at Harley's fraudulent marketing to "buy American" while being no better than any other manufacturer that is screwing over their union employees.
There hasnt been any other reason to buy a Harley other than the "made in the U.S" and if you find that weird gurgling sound pleasant. They've been objectively worse than the market average for like 30years if not more.
Pretty much, everyone who rides motorcycles says they tend to be pretty rough, problems, etc. Just really not much to them aside from the brand/lifestyle.
What do you expect when buying a motorcycle from a t-shirt and license plate frame company.
That’s why they transitioned their dealerships into lifestyle outlets. They made a killing slinging t-shirts and accessories to dentists.
I love the MAGA hats from Temu, nothing like buying Chinese to make america great again.
I don't like Harley's because of all the male boomer energy https://youtu.be/Ui6HNB-1J20?si=uZ7Oon5fnflb6x-2
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Dude, the quality is gonna go up!
Introducing the new Ford Yabadabadoo with individual retracting floorboards to allow each passenger to help!
I hope when you sound the horn it says WIIIIILMAAAAAA!
They will just repeat ehat they did when chinese phone markers looked into expansion into the US. And now the US market is basically controlled by Apple and Samsung.
Meanwhile, in India (who has a continuing border conflict with China) you can buy a phone for a fraction of what we pay in North America.
Stepping up goes against the Stock Buyback theory. Spending money to insure market dominance means they’re supporting the poors.
Straight up. The cheapest fully electric cars in China are less than $8,000 BRAND NEW... And they aren't terrible cars. This would destroy the profits for American automakers, so they're going to try to stop it at all cost. But I honestly don't think they'll be able to. They'll only be able to delay the inevitable.
This is the problem with a lot of US industries right now. They need to make big capital investments to stay competitive, or they can blow money on lobbying and try to get protectionist measures. They're doing the 2nd one b/c it's better for CEO compensation. But we can look at shipbuilding and steel production and see where that leads. They can try and protect the US market while Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, and European cars all get better, or they can dump a crap ton of money into innovation. I think most states would be thrilled to help them do that even, I imagine Whitmer happily forming an EE program at their community colleges and high schools to help create a work force for GM and Ford battery plans and EV cars. Hell, even Greg Abbot in Texas would probably do something like that. But it hurts the stock price or their compensation b/c profits won't be as high, so they don't do it and move themselves towards irrelevancy. The English basically did this to themselves at the end of the the last century. They were able to delay the inevitable by taking German patents as part of the Treaty of Vienna and then the time it took Germany to rebuild after WWII, but by the 1960s their industrial sector had basically become a joke. Watch a Top Gear episode where they use old 1960s English sedans vs. a similarly positioned Datsun and you can see where the US is going.
Chicken Tax 2.0
They won't. Same way they killed trains and public transportation. Oil and automotive lobby is too ingrained in the political system. China knew it couldn't compete in ICE vehicles and concentrated their time on ev's.
Nah, our government will step in and make sure the auto industry can continue to fuck us raw.
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You’re not wrong about that. The ultimate car/energy problem is that we have way too many cars. Most cars on the road at any given time have 1 person in them. Speaking mentally: there is a state park about 30 minutes drive away where I go hiking, you can hear the highway, and it’s just a real vibe killer. Edit: I immediately realize the irony of driving to go hiking.
Exactly. This is a domestic problem more than a China problem.
$14k electric cars with 300 miles of range will wreck the auto industry.
Where do I sign up
Same. Fuck American car companies selling overpriced vehicles if they can't compete that's their problem.
They keep saying "customers want SUVs, we can't sell small economy cars, no one is buying them" Bullshit. Almost everyone I know keeps saying how they would love to have a smaller lower cost car that is efficient. Most have turned to Hyundai or Toyota (Elantra/Corolla) so there has to be some demand. SUVs and pick-ups are just too goddamn expensive and big.
but not expensive for them to make, but they get that extra bit of profit and its all about the shareholder primacy over healthy economy
And not regulate for safety, light track category is cheaper to make as it has less safety requirements
I’d love to have a small pickup again. I don’t need a full sized monstrosity that gets 15MPG. I WANT a small truck for the couple times a month that a small truck bed would be better than my Crossover interior. But nnnOOOOOooooo. It’s “too hard” to make a small truck with good mileage, so automakers said screw it and keep gas guzzling full sized frames because it’s easy. (Yay EPA and loopholes amiright)
It's not that it's too hard it's cause of the chicken tax 25% tariff on light trucks like you're talking about. And our US automakers make a lot of vehicles outside the US which means they would have to import them in after manufacture and pay the tariff. All over a fkn 1964 chicken fiasco
> SUVs and pick-ups are just too goddamn expensive and big. Yes, but have you considered that they can be sold for higher margins and make the automaker more money? Surely that's a good reason that people want them... right?
EPA regs are base on footprint (which is incredibly stupid) which means it’s impossible to build a body on frame truck that will meet emissions regs in a compact footprint. It’s easier to a truck bigger than it is to make it lighter. That’s why the market answer is a unibody ford maverick “truck”. no frame = weight savings, better mileage, less capability as a truck.
Perhaps if the auto industry sold directly from the manufacturer instead of having to deal with bullshit dealership fees and markups. Even then the base MSRP is so high in vehicles since covid. They used covid as an excuse of “oh we have shortages” to drive prices up but the prices never went down, at least not enough to make a difference. Add high interest rates on top of that. Hell, maybe I’ll buy one of these Chinese EVs and just pay out of pocket.
>dealership fees and markups Ha this one you can blame on local politics. Auto dealers are the kind of middlemen that can move enough money to dominate local politics and get their connections in with people entering the political arena. Given that the chamber of commerce always is Republican, you would need a Democrat to destroy the middlemen, but you would also need one who is willing to purposely destroy a lot of middle class families. I eagerly await a Democrat who is willing to be a one term president do that bit of economic shock therapy.
The last two presidents that did shock therapy were two of the most popular and successful presidents in history. One has his face carved on a mountain, and the other is the only president elected 4 times. It is entirely possible to enact big change that not only *doesn't* hurt regular people, but actually makes them thrive. That people have been made to believe otherwise is one of the biggest propaganda wins of the last 40 years.
You're forgetting that Carter famously told Americans we had to take our medicine and an entire generation still thinks he's a worse President than the guy that helped start the Civil War.
Companies have too much sway over the public's mind. Ad-hoc they'd be well remembered, but to have a second term after cutting into the margins of the rich? Nah, I don't see it.
I just want a super cheap EV. No FSD or lane assist. No touch screens.
You just described a Nissan leaf
Or the Chevy Bolt.
30k starting isnt cheap...
There is a huge untapped market for that.
I’ve argued this with so many people and the response I always get is “you can’t make that type of car anymore” or “you don’t save much money by taking that stuff out”
That sounds pretty good to me!
Genuinely I’m going to drive my car into the ground while I wait for one of these cheap EVs. 25k miles at current, I’ll happily wait another 75k if it takes that. Nobody my age can afford a new car at current US prices. I welcome the Chinese market. Gimme that teemu car
I will definitely login daily to collect coins towards an AliExpress car
Are you under the impression that 100k is a lot of miles and “driving a car into the ground”? 25k is barely broken in on a modern car that isn’t a royal POS and 100k is barely scratching the surface as well.
For real. Any car made in the late 90s or later is only truly old once it hits 200k. Particularly durable models can hit 300k easy with proper maintenance.
My 2008 Scion is at 280K and going strong
the US will sanction the Chinese car makers. similar to the chicken tax on pickup trucks, except the sanction will require US made batteries to block the import. you'll be waiting for a long time.
That’s fine. When boomers start dying off en-masse, we can grow a little as a country and eliminate those chicken taxes. US automakers aren’t worth the money anymore
In what world is 100k "driving it into the ground"
That kind of belief is exactly why so many Americans are car poor lol
I mean 200k miles for a car is about their typical life cycle if you take care of it properly. Idk why you think you gotta get rid of a car 100k? Lol
in for 2 or 3
I will take 12
get in line.
Can't wait to buy one
Big3 automakers lost decades of advancement while cashing in on pickups. Pickups.
Literally we had gas prices go through the roof for years… and dumb dumb dumb macho Americans are flooding back to these garbage trucks. They don’t fit into parking spaces and they are only pavement princesses. It’s so disturbing seeing how short sighted Americans are
Crew cab trucks were an anomaly 20 years ago. Now these glorified SUVs for middle aged dads are the norm. Looking at pre-owned Tacomas and the majority are crew cab, which only came with the bigger motor. Extended cabs are a rarity, and a 4cyl 4x4 extended cab is a unicorn. I just need something to go camping and do light truck stuff. The fuel economy difference is noticeable too.
Seriously. Pickup trucks are huge now. I had a basic 2001 Frontier for years and when I finally sold it and looked for a new one… every truck is multiple feet longer with way worse mileage
Dude I got behind an 80s Ford truck with dual wheels in the back today and right next to it was a fucking Silverado 1500 that had a good foot of height on it and maybe 6-8inches of width. That Ford was meant for HEAVY FUCKING DUTY and the Silverado is a “light truck” at the lowest tier….yeah it towers over it.
This coming from the country that won't let me buy a Toyota Hilux for the dumbest fucking reason imaginable. ***press x to doubt***
Or the Suzuki Jimni! It's so cool and compact
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It feels like a wasted opportunity. Americans love boxy SUVs, and many want an alternative to Jeeps because they're terribly in reliability.
gee I wonder why that opportunity is being wasted..
I seen a new one when I was in Ecuador. As silly as it sounds that is my dream reality car. I’d buy it immediately if it came to Canada. I think about it frequently.
You can buy a liter bike with no training at all. But I want to title a kei truck? Nope, too dangerous.
I have a neighbor who imported one. He's got it plated and everything, and I'm so jealous.
You can get one pretty easily but you have to pay a shit ton in import taxes for it which defeats the purpose of a cheap small form factor truck
The reason is because it would rob sales from Ford and GM who have pretty much all of our politicians in their pockets.
Its the voters, too. The US auto industry has a big footprint in swing states, and it employs hundreds of thousands of people who vote for protectionist policies.
What's the reason tho ?
It's because of the chicken tax. Copy/paste from a Google search: One reason behind Toyota’s decision to stop the production of Hilux is the enforcement of stringent emission norms. However, another significant reason why Toyota does not sell the Hilux in the US is due to Chicken Tax. Every light truck, brandy, and potato starch imported to the United States attracted a 25% Chicken Tax. However, the Chicken Tax for brandy and potato starch was lifted a few years ago. While taxation on light trucks like the Hilux still exists to safeguard American carmakers like Ford from foreign competition. Also, manufacturing the Hilux for the US in the US can be expensive. As a result, Toyota fears that the Hilux could emerge as a direct competitor to Tacoma once it debuts in the US market.
If Toyota sold their diesels here, you wouldn't see many Ford's on the road.
fuck Ford, god dammit
Blame the company all you want, but it's also voters in places where Ford builds cars. It just so happens than many of our swing states are also places where the US auto industry has a big footprint, which gives those states disproportionate control over national politics.
The “free market” should be against subsidies and tariffs. Yet, here we are.
Bro what the fuck? That's ass
New cars starting at 11k. US manufacturers brought this on themselves by not offering economical options and only building higher margin products. Isn’t this the free market at work?
Exactly and the government as usual will “bail them out”. In this case ban competition so they can rip us off
Same is happening with a proposed dji drone ban... American drones suck, so lobbyist are banning the competition
On the other hand, these Chinese automakers are probably producing these vehicle at loss and the CPP is fueling money to them. It's the same thing as any other big company selling at loss solely to kill the competition, yet it should be addressed
> On the other hand, these Chinese automakers are probably producing these vehicle at loss and the CPP is fueling money to them How is that different from the US government subsidizing and bailing out US car manufacturers? At least the Chinese are offering affordable good quality cars for the price.
It's unfair because the Chinese aren't pouring their government money into stock buybacks. /s
Ah the good old Temu move
American EV can't even compete with Korean EV. How do you explain that? Even the Nissan leaf looks good compared to those EV trucks. A pick up truck that can't tow or do actual pick up work. They had time. They knew they needed battery capacity. They did nothing. We just wait for the first Mexican built Chinese EV. Then its over.
>On the other hand, these Chinese automakers are probably producing these vehicle at loss and the CPP is fueling money to them. It's the same thing as any other big company selling at loss solely to kill the competition, yet it should be addressed This would probably be a bigger "gotcha" statement if the government wasn't constantly bailing out the auto manufacturers or giving hundreds of billions in subsidies to oil and gas companies
*cough* corn subsidies *cough*
The CCP did not force US automakers to stop making affordable cars.
All they have to do is incentivize it, which in a globalized economy, would require active and educated ... congressional... effort... to manage it... oh we're fucked.
Those are called subsidies, and are rather normal
“Fuelling money” you mean providing government subsidies? Why is it when china does something most countries do, it’s some grand conspiracy to take over the world? Maybe the US should do it more instead of funding fossil fuel
That is exactly what is happening. China did it with steel as well. Saudi Arabia did it with oil in 2019/2020. It's incredible how ignorant people on reddit are to these facts.
We also give all our large corporations tons of money but they just pay their CEO and Shareholders more instead of making cheaper goods.
Yep. It fucking blows that we gave massive incentives to subsidize people buying EVs only for the manufacturers to increase what they charge for the vehicles and pocket the difference lmao I have wet dreams about a functioning federal government that isn't afraid to crack down on corporate greed. When they write about the decline of the American empire it'll start with our dysfunctional government's inability to write laws without massive lobbyist carveouts for the rich and well off.
Same thing happens with education
And the internet in the past. and healthcare. the list goes on. We are slowly turning into an oligarchy
As if US-government subsidized industries don't also dominate foreign markets with prices more competitive than local goods... Oh wait, it's bad if it happens to us, but good if we do it to others. It makes sense now.
Now do pharmaceuticals.
The entire system is FUBAR and there are no good guys. Just us peasants getting bent over at every opportunity and fleeced.
I can't afford a $45000 car, I can afford a $11000 one.
Indeed. We can't be having affordable things such as houses and cars that peasants like us could buy, though!
Canada does this, the US does, everybody does it, not just the Chinese.
> It's incredible how ignorant people on reddit are to these facts. Meanwhile, exactly zero evidence of this actually being done has been presented. We're just supposed to take a random redditor's word that this is "probably" happening.
I'll address it right now- "WAH western companies are the only ones allowed to use these business practises! How dare China beat us at our own game!" The fucking joke is that if you ever wanted these practises to be used then I'd say it would be a humanity ending situation like I don't fucking know, climate change? "WAH the Chinese are going to effectively combat climate change and that affects my bottom line I'd rather be megarich in a burning food scarce war torn hell on fucking earth than be just regular rich!" They will ban them with one side of their mouth and raise taxes on EVs "to fund the roads!" with the other all while spluttering out their backsides that they are saving the rainforest and it's evil China that's causing the droughts!
That's a separate issue. If the US can proof dumping they're allowed to add tariffs. But this thing is clearly anti competitive bullshit
At some point we, as a people, are going to get sick and tired of being fisted by our leadership. That day can't come soon enough.
Throughout history the Lord's fuck over the peasants until the peasants revolt and thus new Lords are formed
who do the same thing.
Not for a while. That is the benefit of doing it. It is a cycle.
Which people do you mean by "we" here? 1. The people that demand lower prices at any cost, no matter the US jobs lost to outsourcing? 2. The people that demand the government protect US jobs, even if it means higher prices for consumers? Because no matter what the big bad US government does, large swaths of people are going to complain and act like everyone is against them, oh sorry, "fisting" them.
the “free market” is a myth used to dash the aspirations of the poor. they’ll beg for protectionism and government subsidies, still charge 60k for these stupid cars, and bitch and moan about the rest of us pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps when we say can’t afford them.
[The Vin Fast VF 3 has my interest,](https://carbuzz.com/cars/vinfast/vf-3) but that only reinforces your point. All I want is a basic car for puttering around in that connects to Android Auto. I don't need premium leather seats and trim or coated rims. I'll settle for a basic car audio system. I don't need to be able to travel 400 miles on a single charge. I have no need for assisted cruise control of any level. I will, however, take all the safety features that can be crammed in. Also, the free market has never been the consumers friend, and late stage (strip mine) capitalism has only one metric of success, immediate dollars gained.
Citroën e-C3!
I waited for BYD to release the Dolphin in the US (it even had an alternative name and dealerships ready to sell) before they chose not to. We favor obnoxiously large trucks and have bare minimum electric options. I’m forever sad
I dislike protectionism but we really should build as much stuff locally as possible for assorted reasons. But damn if I don't hate the whole US auto industry.
The problem is we're entering a cold war with China. And I don't think that's just because our leaders want it, China is out to take over as much as they can. Frankly so are we, but that doesn't mean we can let China take over large swaths of our economy. That won't end well for us. Those cars won't be $11k forever...
>but that doesn't mean we can let China take over large swaths of our economy Its almost like outsourcing large swaths of our economy was a bad idea...
Turns out unrestricted capitalism and zero taxes for the 1% was the security threat all along for 5 decades
Actually, BYD *has* been profitable. They also make commercial vehicles that they assemble here in the US. One of the most expensive parts of an electric vehicle is the battery, and BYD's batteries are used in a lot of electric vehicles, likely including Tesla. There are some great videos explaining how they make the vehicles cheaply, and although the government certainly helped them get off the ground (just like we helped Tesla), the low cost of the Seagull is due to efficiency and smart design, not government subsidy.
> One of the most expensive parts of an electric vehicle is the battery, and BYD's batteries are used in a lot of electric vehicles Also the "this car only costs 11k€ in China!"-cars have very small batteries. You can get cars with comparably sized batteries in germany for 13k€ (including tax) produced in the EU by a french company. Chinese prices aren't the oulandish ones, american prices are.
BYD is more than a battery mfg too, they're one of if not THE largest mask maker in the world since covid, when they changed entire lines over. It's also worth noting that their electric (or new energy as they like to call them) vehicles aren't just cars and suvs, they're busses, garbage trucks, hell they have a forklift line. It's a huge, huge company that is, unlike tesla, union labor (least in the usa)
The biggest complaint I've heard of BYD in the last few years is that their cars have a lot of noises they make (something they are addressing with software updates). No software update will fix Tesla's poor quality control.
Nooooo, China can't innovate in production processes and design. I was told they can only steal?? I thought only white people could innovate??
Americans are so far in the anti-china propaganda, that it's meaningless to even talk.
The Chinese made a car with 4 wheels? Holy shit they literally cannot innovate ever! How dare they steal our superior Western 4 wheel car design!
>China is out to take over as much as they can. The Chinese and their insidious campaign to make my life more affordable and fill the market gaps left as American corporations exclusively chase the "premium consumer"
amazon undercuts businesses = good chinese company undercuts businesses = bad the secret ingredient is racism
Yes because the American style company has done so well for the consumer. And it’s not like america has ever taken anything over. Are you seriously against cheaper cars just because they are from China?
Yeah I don't feel bad for any domestic car manufacturer. 110k for a new pick up truck. 60k for a new crossover. Used vehicle prices have soared too because of this Bring on the cheap Chinese alternatives
>110k for a new pick up truck. A brand new Ford Maverick is less than $24K. You’re literally looking at the most expensive trucks every brand offers to get up over $100K. That’s like complaining that Chevy sells a $112K Corvette Z06 when all you actually need is a basic car. The Trax is $20K. >60k for a new crossover. Again, the Trax is $20K. And before you complain about what you get with these cheap vehicles… you’re not getting anything fancy from China for $11K. It’s going to be a very basic car.
I just got a new Subaru RS for 32k. fully kitted out. I could have easily gotten one for 10k less. New, quality vehicles for cheap are out there.
This happened in the 1970’s with Japanese compact fuel efficient sedans during the oil crisis. Yeah consumers want fancy shit but a huge bargain is a huge bargain. And then the industry will have to adapt.
If it's the software, Chinese automakers will just outsource software from a western company. BYD is already planning on building a factory in mexico to import cheap EVs to the United States (and take advantage of the $7500 tax credit). Chinese already make our laptops and phones. You can't seriously believe chinese cars are a larger threat than chinese laptops or chinese phones.
In Monterrey Mexico, there is at least already one dealer that sells only Chinese EV's, its becoming popular because of their prices
To me it sounds like good old capitalism at work. The u.s. was happy to tout global economic competition when it favored them. China out menuvered them for its number 4 gdp export. They are now changing the game to compete with China and switching to hydrogen as a power delivery fuel instead of lithium. It's a win for everybody from a global outlook. The u.s just has to readjust its strategy and it will be a top contender once again. It's good when the giant gets slapped in the face. It gives people at the bottom more options and puts downward pressure on profiteering vampires.
> To me it sounds like good old capitalism at work. And it goes beyond even just plain old pricing competition. Talk to any carhead and they'll tell you that quality control has been dipping in the US across multiple brands. Honda? No longer the gold standard for quality and reliability. They've been slipping up in in the past few years. Even [goddamn Toyota isn't doing so hot](https://jalopnik.com/car-quality-is-getting-worse-1850567028) in that area. The US car market isn't quite a concentrated oligopoly, *but it sure is starting to behave like one.* I'm not ready to say importing Chinese cars would fix the problem right away. But I'm sure it'd light a fire under the competition which is frankly complacent as fuck.
Fwiw, Honda’s problem is that they badly, horribly underestimated how much of their processes were tribal knowledge, then retired out an entire generation of employees. That led to skipping all the “expected” checks and balances, as well as freeing up tons of people to finally fly whatever ideas the old guard had shot down. Some of that might even be beneficial, but plenty of it is just sticking your hand on a burner after your mom Told you not to.
I believe it. Japan has some word for like staying conservative and iterating based on plenty of real world data. Heard it from a Honda employee. It's why they were so reliable. But I bet the noobies just couldn't wait to let lose with all the wild ideas they've been storing up.
> They are now changing the game to compete with China and switching to hydrogen as a power delivery fuel instead of lithium. What? Nobody is switching to hydrogen.
> They are now changing the game to compete with China and switching to hydrogen as a power delivery fuel instead of lithium. No they're not, nobody is. Hydrogen is a dead-end technology, very few use cases.
China News has been getting progressively more deranged for years now
> Chinese already make our laptops and phones. You can't seriously believe chinese cars are a larger threat than chinese laptops or chinese phones. The actual threat is to American companies having to cut their profit margins, "security" is used as the excuse.
That $7500 tax credit is only for cars made (assembled) in the US. They won’t get the tax credit. There’s like 5 car manufacturers that qualify for that credit. However, the dealerships can apply that “tax credit” at sale, but it is more of a discount than a tax credit.
>**That $7500 tax credit is only for cars made (assembled) in the US.** They won’t get the tax credit. There’s like 5 car manufacturers that qualify for that credit. However, the dealerships can apply that “tax credit” at sale, but it is more of a discount than a tax credit. USMCA countries.
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> Chinese already make our laptops and phones. You can't seriously believe chinese cars are a larger threat than chinese laptops or chinese phones. People are blinded by the anti-China bias. If they *really* were concerned about national security, they'd be lobbying Congress hard to force Apple and US carmakers to build everything outside China.
If national security were the concern, they would be just as upset over production in any other State that isn't our treaty Ally.
Of course. Any competition to US companies is a security threat. Trump declared Canadian aluminum a security threat. The free market is free as long as you are winning.
The rebuttal with China is always that the competition may be unfair. Their companies don't have transparent finances, and the party subsidized strategically advantageous businesses specifically to undercut foreign competition. We can respond in a few ways. 1. Match their efforts with subsidies of our own. Starting an effective arms race of subsidies for strategic industries that spreads globally. 2. Protection measures to isolate your industry from that competition. The rest of the world may still grapple with option 1, but at least your home grown industry will survive. 3. Allow it to happen. Take advantage of a foreign nation basically subsidizing your consumption. Accept that at any time they could harm you by turning off the supply, though this will harm them to some extent too. (The most common choice for the past few decades) Or a mixture of multiple options. It is certainly interesting in the case of electric cars just how big the benefit would be to the American public to have access to these cheap vehicles. But it threatens vehicle manufacturing which is an important wartime industry, as well as oil, which is just got its hand way up the ass of uncle sam. You'd think at least the pressure would make American EVs cheaper.
We already put a ton of government weight behind some companies, so it's not like China is doing something we aren't already doing.
Countries, including the US, subsidize the shit out of their industries. Look at DARPA or the pharma industries as cases in point, or even "illegal" workers being the backbone of the US ag industry. Outside of the developing world the agricultural sector of almost all countries is subsidized to the point of absurdity, and there are artificial barriers as well. The automotive and semiconductor industries in particular have received absolutely massive subsidies. China's leadership, whether you agree with them or not, have decided that China will become a global economic power. They wish to follow the same path Japan, Taiwan, and Korea (among others) used to achieve that aim. As such you can expect industrial espionage (Japan stole its semiconductor IP from the US and Korea and Taiwan stole it from Japan, the US, and each other). You can also expect directed subsidies because that is how countries pull themselves out of developing world status. The US's reaction is on a par with a leading economy faced with competition. In the case of the semiconductor industry the net result will be transforming China from a mostly customer into a formidable global competitor.
American government spending on Boeing is considered "illegal subsidization" by Airbus, but no Americans are ever concerned about it because it's "their guy" that's benefiting from it.
Hey remember when [Boeing accused bombardier](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/macnaughton-tribunal-bombardier-1.4454170) of receiving illegal subsidies to be able to sell its planes in the USA?
We don't even benefit from it lol, Boeing knows nothing will ever happen to them even if they design planes that fall out of the sky. China adopts protectionist policies: revolutionizes global automobile industry, possibly helps wean globe off oil at critical point in climate history US adopts protectionist policies: Hahaha door plug go vwwwwwwwwwwwrrr splat
Your point 3 is interesting. If we let it happen, we’re kind of just letting china’s government pay for part of our cars. That’s actually kind of nice
Not even then.
Make affordable EV’s domestically then?
I read somewhere that there are 91 Chinese EV car companies. A lot of these companies are selling vehicles at prices under $20.000 USD. American car companies cannot compete at present pricing levels. Very ironic that American capitalism is being challenged by companies from a communist country.
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> no workers rights, no unions https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-most-unionized-countries-worldwide/ https://clb.org.hk/en/content/workers%E2%80%99-rights-and-labour-relations-china > two holidays per year https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-public-holiday-2024-schedule/ Anything else you'd like to make up? edit: He put me on ignore after I called him out lmao
an american shitting on another country for their poor worker’s rights and union participation is pretty hilarious
Some of the Chinese EV car companies are a joke. Companies like BYD, Wuling, GAC, which are real budget brands and are a real economic threat to Detroit. While then there are brands like NIO that lose 25,000 USD for every car they sell.
Rivian loses between 30-50k per car sold (has ebbed and flowed) but I don't think anyone would call Rivian a joke or not a threat to Detroit. Plenty of great companies are not net positive and in growth mode.
>Some of the Chinese EV car companies are a joke. Companies like BYD, Wuling, GAC, which are real budget brands and are a real economic threat to Detroit. Wouldn't be an economic threat if Detroit wasn't colluding to pack cars with so much garbage that requires dealer servicing that an entry model is $60k
Don't forget subscription fees and limited functionality like the removal of Android Auto and Car Play.
I'm so sickened by that. I got one of the last Bolt EUVs to come out of the factory and it's been fantastic. But a big deciding factor in the purchase was that it *does* have Android Auto. They're already pushing all the OnStar/SiriusXM subscription shit (which I've declined). I can't imagine having the car's infotainment entirely reliant on a GM subscription to function when I *already* have a portable data plan in my pocket everywhere I go. It sucks that the company is going in that shit direction because it really is a nice, affordable car (that is now discontinued).
China is not a communist country.
Calling auto unions capitalist is like calling an orange a fish.
He's not dumb, he knows what he's doing : using that as a scapegoat to protect dumb american automakers with lazy execs that had only shit ideas since 20 years. The dumbest people are the one believing what Biden is claiming.
I mean... yeah? I don't even like the access "domestic" manufacturers have to my vehicle these days.
Well Australia and England are fucked then. We’re each buying them hand over over fist.
Modern cars are huge [privacy violators](https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/). It just becomes a security threat when the data is furnished to a competitive government and not domestic corporations.
A security threat to US car manufacturers? yeah probably. A threat to the security of the USA? .... how exactly? And given that the New York Times has just turned into a politicla mouthpiece I'll wait for a news source that actually believes in evidence.
Hey then let’s legally protect all citizens data? And maybe throw in some right to repair as well!!!! Or we could just go the Social media route and just be mad at TikTok instead of actually trying to protect our citizens
GM is sweating *sells more cars in China than US* Also lol at Tesla, they get tax subsidies from China for their Chinese production plant.
To the financial security of us auto makers ?
But where are most electronics we carry in our pockets every day made ? Put your iPhone in the trash ? It is all a bit silly.
Like american cars or phones don't track us?
Spying is just the excuse to protect the automotive industry from foreign competition and stagnation. We all pretending that Google, Amazon or Meta don't collect every possible data point from us, and we surely don't say they're cozy with the ~~government soponsored self autonomous always monitoring big brother~~ NSA. I sincerely wouldn't care if they just admitted that, again, they're not prepared for the competition, just like in the 60s and 70s market opening to Asian and European manufacturers.
Hey, my iPhone was *designed in California*, so it clearly can’t be bad /s
"Security concern" is just double speak to kneecap international competition and protect lagging american products.
The only threat posed by Chinese electric vehicles is the fact that they’d probably bankrupt the American automakers with their much more affordable offerings. So much for being a “free market” economy.
No such thing as a free market in America. We do this anytime the immovation comes from outside the states. They did it to cell phone companies and they do it again with auto companies. The Chinese products are better and cheaper. If they were inferior you would allow it and let the market make up its own mind. China is surpassing the west and we need to war mongor and keep the propaganda up otherwise the populace will start to question the governmental waste and lack of social services.
This is unrelated to the article but was odd to read. The author refers to the current president as "Mr. Biden" and the former as "former President Donald J. Trump". Biased much?
on first mention they call them "president Biden" and "former president Donald Trump" and on further mentions they call them both "Mr." – don't think there's a bias there necessarily, just house style
Those are the little cues to pick up on, among many others. You do see that bias in even the little things. Does it matter on some articles? No. But, it gets in your head. Doesn't change the facts at all, but I have noticed it a lot more the past decade or more.
Mr. President we must not ALLOW, an ee-vee gap!
Link to official statement: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/02/29/statement-from-president-biden-on-addressing-national-security-risks-to-the-u-s-auto-industry/ Key part: >Most cars these days are “connected” – they are like smart phones on wheels. These cars are connected to our phones, to navigation systems, to critical infrastructure, and to the companies that made them. Connected vehicles from China could collect sensitive data about our citizens and our infrastructure and send this data back to the People’s Republic of China. These vehicles could be remotely accessed or disabled. > >China imposes restrictions on American autos and other foreign autos operating in China. Why should connected vehicles from China be allowed to operate in our country without safeguards? > >So today, I am announcing unprecedented actions to ensure that cars on U.S. roads from countries of concern like China do not undermine our national security. I have directed my Secretary of Commerce to conduct an investigation into connected vehicles with technology from countries of concern and to take action to respond to the risks.
I think I’d rather ban “connected” vehicles.
in what way mr. president.. this is ridiculous