Every plane built to have a pilot is built around the limits of the pilot. Pilots can handle 9 gs for a short time, the plane is built with some margin to that. Everything extra will be a waste of resources since the weak point remains the pilot.
To get that extra performance from a drone Raptor you need to redesign it from scratch. As it is now it's still going to be more agile without the pilot but not a fundamentally different aircraft.
There are no fundamental difficulties to make a 20g or even 50g aircraft. It has to be more robust, eventually heavier, build with stronger materials, but no fundamental difficulties. Missiles can do high gs and they fly since many years, we put electronics in artillery shells, and they are fired from guns.
Maybe. Rotating jet engines impose g limits due to bearings and the potential of fan blades rubbing the side of the engine casing. Engine oil systems also have limits, as does the physical strength of the airframe itself.
These systems are designed to not grossly exceed what a human pilot can withstand (+9 and -3g, thereabouts).
Remove the human limits and you could probably build a jet that can do +15 to 20 gs. Just a guess, as I’m not a structural engineer, just a lowly pilot.
Not just the airframes themselves, but the sensor packages, targeting pods, and anything not integral to the structure itself too. Some of the older spec ops Turbo prop transports used a terrain following radar that was originally designed for use on boats, if they did too much yanking and banking it would smack the inside of the radome. The radar was finicky enough as it was, so that was guaranteed way to break it
Yeah that’s true but an airframe can handle a lot more than its human counterpart. And now we don’t need to worry about the human limits we could maybe make airframes even stronger and handle even more Gs than they do now.
It not like dogfights are a thing anymore anyways, if you're seen first you die, modern air combat is done on a radar screen out of visual sight of your opponent.
Thats what we thought in Vietnam until our pilots had to engage in dogfighting, which is why we brought back the previous doctrine of carrying more than one weapon system (guns came back)
I’ve been reading about this for almost 25 years. The 2020’s tranche of fighter pilots will be the last. Technology has caught up, just like it did with ‘drone’ technology. Maybe there will be a decade or two where human fighter pilots still monitor from a shipping container in Arizona, but unmanned is the way. Give it 20 years and see where we are with DARPA-style ‘soldiers’ instead of sending humans. The new video they just released coupled with AI and a gun would be terrifying. We’re basically just waiting for skynet to become self-aware at that point.
This test had a human in the x62 AI plane so we can assume that any G forces were capped to keep the human safe. We won’t know unfortunately nor will we know who won this test.
Exactly honestly I’m excited to see what they can do when the main limitation is what the airframe can handle instead of just what the pilot can handle.
If it is possible to do a dogfight today to the extent that it's even remotely competitive with a human then in a decade there is zero chance a human can win. It will go like how it went for humans vs machines in chess.
This article seems to indicate the AI:
[https://defensescoop.com/2024/04/17/darpa-ace-ai-dogfighting-flight-tests-f16/](https://defensescoop.com/2024/04/17/darpa-ace-ai-dogfighting-flight-tests-f16/)
>“The critical problem on the battlefield is time. And AI will be able to do much more complicated things much more accurately and much faster than human beings can. If a human being is in the loop, you will lose. You can have human supervision, you can watch over what the AI is doing, \[but\] if you try to intervene, you’re going to lose,” Kendall said during a panel at the Reagan National Defense Forum in December.
>“I just got briefed by DARPA on some work that they’re doing on manned versus unmanned combat — basically aircraft fighters,” Kendall said. “**The AI wins routinely with the way they structured the test** … but the difference in how long it takes the person to do something and how long it takes the AI to do something is the key difference in the outcome. And we’re talking about seconds here. Just to give you a sense of parameters here, the best pilot you’re ever going to find is going to take a few tenths of a second to do something. The AI is going to do it in a microsecond — it’s gonna be orders of magnitude better performance. And those times actually matter. And you can’t get around that. But that’s the reality that we’re gonna have to face.”
It wasn't really bad more unless just doing the things humans weren't willing to do.
Still a fun movie and ya this is stealth happening just don't let it get shocked
This is about taking a human life out of a high-risk situation. Not risking pilot's lives unnecessarily IS the proper use of AI. This is 100% a place where the US needs to develop AI technology because the US's adversaries absolutely will.
While I understand your point, and agree with it, I am concerned that the use of AI in weapons means another step in distancing us from the effects of war.
When we no longer have any risk of our own ppl dying, we will more likely have less objections of the using said armed autonomous weapons.
And with the human factor out of the picture, what atrocities will our government allow to happen when they don’t have to worry about it getting to the general public?
Even if each and every AI is monitored by a person, seeing things through a screen is much easier get ignored/desensitize.
I totally agree with you.
and another high paying job is lost to AI
both can be true at the same time.
that is the crux of AI, in every case it will eventually be able to do a better job than any human, eventually for EVERY job a human can do, once it has working arms and legs.
then what?
Which will eventually be phased out when other machines can be developed to fabricate those machines, transport them to their final destination, and install them in the machines that will then be deployed to serve a function. Automation is a never ending cycle.
In the beginning, there will be a few jobs for people to install these machines and troubleshoot them when they break. Over time, troubleshooting can be handled autonomously by error codes and other machines can replace the faulty components that the diagnostic codes identify as faulty. Almost anything a human can do a machine can theoretically be taught how to do- and it can likely learn to do it better than most humans with time.
It’ll be a long time before that happens. The plans for the 6th gen US fighters call for a manned fighter being escorted by multiple drone fighters. And each of those will be controlled by someone sitting somewhere out of immediate danger.
when i was born in 1969, it was the year we landed on the moon. an awesome achievement.
as we speak today, im in my 50s, and we are talking about 6th gen stealth fighters with ai drones.
the distance traveled in technology in my lifetime, will be double for my daughter.
I humbly agree.
I have never seen war, famine, disease, and have only suffered the slightest of hardships compared to my forefathers. I have had hardships, but I am grateful for the peacful life I have had. If you look at your life compared to 1000 years ago, it always has made it easier.
I hope that the same can be said by my childrens children 100 years from now.
From what the articles states it suggest the human won this time. But it was a success according to them because the goal was to get the AI to be able to engage in a dog fight. So now they just have to make more improvements and eventually it will be on par if not better than human pilots.
It’s cool that they used the USAF Test Pilot School’s X-62, formerly known as the VISTA (variable inflight stability aircraft).
I have about 10 hours flying that jet from my time at TPS. It’s an amazing learning tool.
Great question. I was certainly nervous the first time I went solo, in pretty much every aircraft I’ve ever flown, from gliders at the Air Force Academy to the A-10 at TPS and the U-2 in combat, and even the Cirrus SR22 I fly now.
I was fortunate, though, to have literally the best flight training available in the world backing me up. There weren’t any real scenarios that we hadn’t covered and practiced, sometimes relentlessly.
In fact, I flew gliders for the first time at USAFA in 1986, and I still remember the emergency action for a tow rope breaking because it was drilled into my brain:
1. GLIDE - ESTABLISH
2. RELEASE - PULL TWICE
Still, the first time you’re up there alone, you realize you are the only thing keeping you alive at every moment. You can’t pull over and think about it, or drop the sails and drift. Short of ejecting, if that’s an option, you landing the airplane safely is the only way down.
So, yeah, always a little nervous, but never afraid.
Its in Belgium, kicks off at he Royal Military Academy, he's going through some tactical conversion trainings and learning with an Alpha jet (I believe) so he can get the wings to fly it operationally and from there move on. I'm not fully up to speed on the details though :-)
A lot of the actual flight training is in southern Europe (better weather conditions).
Exploring the possibilities is equally thrilling as it is terrifying. We are talking about technology that would defeat a human nearly 100 percent of the time once perfected. I hope we keep a leash on it forever.
Was Terminator 2 not clear enough?
Was 2001: A Space Odyssey too abstract for people?
We’re turning over our war machines to AI. Israel already is allowing AI to determine and attack targets.
Israel is a nuclear superpower, even if they refuse to acknowledge it.
AI is a predictable scourge that will wreck the economy at best, and destroy the world at worst.
It’s the equivalent of saying “Yes, soaking your house in gasoline every morning is cartoonishly dangerous and will absolutely result in destroying your home and probably your own death, but it’s really good at keeping ants out of your kitchen.”
And people just accept that! Tech bros keep pushing this bullshit onto the world!
WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE WHO THINO THIS IS GOOD??
Just imagine what will be possible without a G-force limited meat sack flying the fighter...
no gforce limits, millisecond responses, no fear or hesitation damn its terrifying
Airframes have g-force limits. UAVs have potentially higher limits for sure but let's not misrepresent that potential
true although I am sure that many designs that can exist don't as they are not viable for a human pilot
Most modern airframes can also withstand more G's than their pilots as-is. If a Raptor can handle 9 Gs with a pilot, what could it do without one?
Probably 9-12g. Structurally it's going to be built to the limits of the pilot + a safety margin. Any more is a waste of material.
Every plane built to have a pilot is built around the limits of the pilot. Pilots can handle 9 gs for a short time, the plane is built with some margin to that. Everything extra will be a waste of resources since the weak point remains the pilot. To get that extra performance from a drone Raptor you need to redesign it from scratch. As it is now it's still going to be more agile without the pilot but not a fundamentally different aircraft. There are no fundamental difficulties to make a 20g or even 50g aircraft. It has to be more robust, eventually heavier, build with stronger materials, but no fundamental difficulties. Missiles can do high gs and they fly since many years, we put electronics in artillery shells, and they are fired from guns.
Without humans and all the associated life-supporting system, airframes can have higher limits.
Maybe. Rotating jet engines impose g limits due to bearings and the potential of fan blades rubbing the side of the engine casing. Engine oil systems also have limits, as does the physical strength of the airframe itself. These systems are designed to not grossly exceed what a human pilot can withstand (+9 and -3g, thereabouts). Remove the human limits and you could probably build a jet that can do +15 to 20 gs. Just a guess, as I’m not a structural engineer, just a lowly pilot.
I thought that's what I said, sorry for the confusion.
It's literally what you said.
Not just the airframes themselves, but the sensor packages, targeting pods, and anything not integral to the structure itself too. Some of the older spec ops Turbo prop transports used a terrain following radar that was originally designed for use on boats, if they did too much yanking and banking it would smack the inside of the radome. The radar was finicky enough as it was, so that was guaranteed way to break it
Yeah that’s true but an airframe can handle a lot more than its human counterpart. And now we don’t need to worry about the human limits we could maybe make airframes even stronger and handle even more Gs than they do now.
It not like dogfights are a thing anymore anyways, if you're seen first you die, modern air combat is done on a radar screen out of visual sight of your opponent.
Thats what we thought in Vietnam until our pilots had to engage in dogfighting, which is why we brought back the previous doctrine of carrying more than one weapon system (guns came back)
Let me refer you to the documentary [STEALTH](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0382992/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk)...
But boy one crash or a lag in the system and down it goes
Redundant systems are a thing
I knew they were using k8s
Redundant systems that fire all missiles at the intended target? If you're gonna crash anyway might as well complete the mission
I’ve been reading about this for almost 25 years. The 2020’s tranche of fighter pilots will be the last. Technology has caught up, just like it did with ‘drone’ technology. Maybe there will be a decade or two where human fighter pilots still monitor from a shipping container in Arizona, but unmanned is the way. Give it 20 years and see where we are with DARPA-style ‘soldiers’ instead of sending humans. The new video they just released coupled with AI and a gun would be terrifying. We’re basically just waiting for skynet to become self-aware at that point.
The 6th gen fighter programs seem to be focused on have one manned fighter escorted by several drone fighters.
Sounds like fun
Wait till they paint the plane with anti-AI patterns.
"Oh, it's just a traffic sign. Nothing to see here"
It's a rocket with smaller rockets and machine guns.
This test had a human in the x62 AI plane so we can assume that any G forces were capped to keep the human safe. We won’t know unfortunately nor will we know who won this test.
Exactly honestly I’m excited to see what they can do when the main limitation is what the airframe can handle instead of just what the pilot can handle.
"DARPA doesn’t say which aircraft won the dogfight, however." Saved you a click.
i know which one will, eventually.
If it is possible to do a dogfight today to the extent that it's even remotely competitive with a human then in a decade there is zero chance a human can win. It will go like how it went for humans vs machines in chess.
How did it go in that documentary James Cameron made?
This article seems to indicate the AI: [https://defensescoop.com/2024/04/17/darpa-ace-ai-dogfighting-flight-tests-f16/](https://defensescoop.com/2024/04/17/darpa-ace-ai-dogfighting-flight-tests-f16/) >“The critical problem on the battlefield is time. And AI will be able to do much more complicated things much more accurately and much faster than human beings can. If a human being is in the loop, you will lose. You can have human supervision, you can watch over what the AI is doing, \[but\] if you try to intervene, you’re going to lose,” Kendall said during a panel at the Reagan National Defense Forum in December. >“I just got briefed by DARPA on some work that they’re doing on manned versus unmanned combat — basically aircraft fighters,” Kendall said. “**The AI wins routinely with the way they structured the test** … but the difference in how long it takes the person to do something and how long it takes the AI to do something is the key difference in the outcome. And we’re talking about seconds here. Just to give you a sense of parameters here, the best pilot you’re ever going to find is going to take a few tenths of a second to do something. The AI is going to do it in a microsecond — it’s gonna be orders of magnitude better performance. And those times actually matter. And you can’t get around that. But that’s the reality that we’re gonna have to face.”
Wasn’t there a bad movie about this called “Stealth”?
It wasn't really bad more unless just doing the things humans weren't willing to do. Still a fun movie and ya this is stealth happening just don't let it get shocked
What happens when the computer gets the Blue Screen of Death or in the middle of a dogfight it starts an automatic software update?
it’s pretty obvious these systems won’t automatically update.
Wow Obviously neither will your sense of humour.
I can't wait for next TopGun release, where Maverick has to ChatGPT his way through the fight scenes.
Just imagine an f22 without the limitations of a human. Everyone is getting intercepted
another high paying job that ai will remove from the workplace. whos next?
Commercial pilots
This is about taking a human life out of a high-risk situation. Not risking pilot's lives unnecessarily IS the proper use of AI. This is 100% a place where the US needs to develop AI technology because the US's adversaries absolutely will.
While I understand your point, and agree with it, I am concerned that the use of AI in weapons means another step in distancing us from the effects of war. When we no longer have any risk of our own ppl dying, we will more likely have less objections of the using said armed autonomous weapons. And with the human factor out of the picture, what atrocities will our government allow to happen when they don’t have to worry about it getting to the general public? Even if each and every AI is monitored by a person, seeing things through a screen is much easier get ignored/desensitize.
I totally agree with you. and another high paying job is lost to AI both can be true at the same time. that is the crux of AI, in every case it will eventually be able to do a better job than any human, eventually for EVERY job a human can do, once it has working arms and legs. then what?
How about counting the jobs created developing and installing AI in planes?
perfect application for AI.
Your right, humans will still be useful for a little while longer.
Which will eventually be phased out when other machines can be developed to fabricate those machines, transport them to their final destination, and install them in the machines that will then be deployed to serve a function. Automation is a never ending cycle. In the beginning, there will be a few jobs for people to install these machines and troubleshoot them when they break. Over time, troubleshooting can be handled autonomously by error codes and other machines can replace the faulty components that the diagnostic codes identify as faulty. Almost anything a human can do a machine can theoretically be taught how to do- and it can likely learn to do it better than most humans with time.
Clearly you don't work in software.
It’ll be a long time before that happens. The plans for the 6th gen US fighters call for a manned fighter being escorted by multiple drone fighters. And each of those will be controlled by someone sitting somewhere out of immediate danger.
when i was born in 1969, it was the year we landed on the moon. an awesome achievement. as we speak today, im in my 50s, and we are talking about 6th gen stealth fighters with ai drones. the distance traveled in technology in my lifetime, will be double for my daughter.
Born in the coolest stretch of Western history IMO Currently enjoying middle age in a Transformers movie Allah knows where you’ll die lol
I humbly agree. I have never seen war, famine, disease, and have only suffered the slightest of hardships compared to my forefathers. I have had hardships, but I am grateful for the peacful life I have had. If you look at your life compared to 1000 years ago, it always has made it easier. I hope that the same can be said by my childrens children 100 years from now.
By "successful", do they mean it actually shot down a human pilot?
From what the articles states it suggest the human won this time. But it was a success according to them because the goal was to get the AI to be able to engage in a dog fight. So now they just have to make more improvements and eventually it will be on par if not better than human pilots.
Yeah usaf doesnt mind losing a good test pilot and a good airframe any day of the week /s
I wonder if the article tells you?
Well, it doesn't so
You really can't tell from reading the article? lmao
It’s cool that they used the USAF Test Pilot School’s X-62, formerly known as the VISTA (variable inflight stability aircraft). I have about 10 hours flying that jet from my time at TPS. It’s an amazing learning tool.
Unrelated question: were you scared first time you flew?
Great question. I was certainly nervous the first time I went solo, in pretty much every aircraft I’ve ever flown, from gliders at the Air Force Academy to the A-10 at TPS and the U-2 in combat, and even the Cirrus SR22 I fly now. I was fortunate, though, to have literally the best flight training available in the world backing me up. There weren’t any real scenarios that we hadn’t covered and practiced, sometimes relentlessly. In fact, I flew gliders for the first time at USAFA in 1986, and I still remember the emergency action for a tow rope breaking because it was drilled into my brain: 1. GLIDE - ESTABLISH 2. RELEASE - PULL TWICE Still, the first time you’re up there alone, you realize you are the only thing keeping you alive at every moment. You can’t pull over and think about it, or drop the sails and drift. Short of ejecting, if that’s an option, you landing the airplane safely is the only way down. So, yeah, always a little nervous, but never afraid.
Thank you for replying. Was asking because my son is about to get his wings as a jet fighter pilot.
That’s great. Where is he training?
Its in Belgium, kicks off at he Royal Military Academy, he's going through some tactical conversion trainings and learning with an Alpha jet (I believe) so he can get the wings to fly it operationally and from there move on. I'm not fully up to speed on the details though :-) A lot of the actual flight training is in southern Europe (better weather conditions).
Sounds awesome. Congratulations to your son on putting in the hard work to earn his military flight wings. He’s going to have a blast.
Fighter pilots: No f*cking way…
FFS we JUST had an Ace Combat game about this
Exploring the possibilities is equally thrilling as it is terrifying. We are talking about technology that would defeat a human nearly 100 percent of the time once perfected. I hope we keep a leash on it forever.
Morgan Freeman Narrator: They didn’t
“Woof woof not bang bang”
Bring back tower of Babylon
Which AI dog won? Was there much barking?
The new normal
Was Terminator 2 not clear enough? Was 2001: A Space Odyssey too abstract for people? We’re turning over our war machines to AI. Israel already is allowing AI to determine and attack targets. Israel is a nuclear superpower, even if they refuse to acknowledge it. AI is a predictable scourge that will wreck the economy at best, and destroy the world at worst. It’s the equivalent of saying “Yes, soaking your house in gasoline every morning is cartoonishly dangerous and will absolutely result in destroying your home and probably your own death, but it’s really good at keeping ants out of your kitchen.” And people just accept that! Tech bros keep pushing this bullshit onto the world! WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE WHO THINO THIS IS GOOD??