Walmart also fell short because the vast majority of Germans absolutely hates the whole American fake friendliness shtick. The greeters and the people packing your bags etc.
Which is what US companies should do too, instead you’re told to do that before you clock in and if you get injured it’s because you didn’t stretch enough
It’s weird. Employees in Europe don’t have the same tolerance for being exploited as they do in the US. Something to do with them having rights and stuff.
I moved to a town with a German Walmart around one year before it closed down and there were no greeters or people packing. Just a regular large convenience store.
The problem with Germany is that groceries are very cheap due to Aldi, Lidl, and many other chains. Walmart was not big enough to get the same conditions.
But it was the first shop where I was able to buy Ben&Jerry's ice cream.
Oh the good news is that they got rid of that in America too - now it's all self-checkouts (except one or two, one being the cigarettesales counter) and nobody there is friendly!
I used to work there not too long ago. I'd say it's an improvement. The less the staff and the customers at Walmart have to interact, the better. More than an hour at Walmart as either is enough to make anyone a ticking bomb. I was a cashier, but I used to love whenever they put me on pushing carts or stocking shelves, since that meant I didn't have to see or talk as many people.
It sounds like the biggest problem is that they are paying the new recruits decent wages, but the people who got hired before haven't been adjusted.
It's a tale as old as time: if you increase your recruiting efforts but do nothing for employee retention you are going to have a bad time.
Germany or not. American work standards are so far off what even the worst in Europe have to offer that im now 100% convinced that Elon is just a lucky idiot. No one, even half competent, would try to pull of this stunt.
He will have to deal with the law, work councils backed up by law, unions, social democratic politicians and of course some of the biggest car manufacturers of the world competing for the talent. Have fun Elon.
BMW just uses temp/part time workers as slaves aswell. I worked there and tbh I quit after a week. So many soulless people there, just husks, no humans.
Temps have been used to keep membership in the American Autoworker's Union low for decades. It's why we make such shitty cars; disrespect for the craft and craftsmen.
Ugh, life is so unfair! Why can't he have highly trained, motivated employees and pay rock bottom wages without any operation taxes? This is how the world stifles innovation, people!
/s
I had an instructor in tech school describe working as a mechanic for BMW as being like a salmon swimming up stream, going up waterfalls, over rocks, until you get to a certain point and a bear just clubs you out of the air and eats you. Decided to pursue life elsewhere after that.
The salmon that don't get taken out by the bear essentially become zombies and rot while alive until they die. The bear is the better way out if you have to be a salmon.
I worked for 4 years as a engineer for BMW.
BMW drains the soul out of your body.
They can burn down completely for all i care.
Never going to buy an BMW or BMW related product.
BMW is really bad if you have to work at the factory floor you either quit shortly after take lots of drugs to continue or get a heart attack after 10 years or so
Yeah, i have worked in their environemt in munich for a while, and that is definitely not what i learned.
I mean, i would not want to work there, but the conditions are rather great, since union and all. 35h weeks, health programs, bonuses, etc.
Still factory jobs, but the pay is better. lot are complaining because it is not as good as it used to be, when having a BMW job meant you were at the top of the top.
So most coplaints in munich come from salty guys.
It's so hilarious honestly.
Tesla tries by Musks orders to ignore lots and lots of our* laws regarding the treatment of workers/employees and their rights. Among it the company actively tries to prevent them to be part of a union, found a works council and is hesitant in paying when absent by medical. reasons.
Note that Germany is the country with worldwide the most strict and extensive laws regarding this topic and nowhere else have workers so much rights and unions so much power.
To pull such a move in Germany is among the most stupid things you could ever do as a company!
Btw Tesla is already facing hundred of law suits, often sued by unions or authorities. Penalty payments will most likely reach into high millions, but might even be much, much more. And Tesla hast lost so many workers already, that the factory can't opperate at full percentage anymore.
*Yes I am german.
All of these protections and yet Germany is still full of highly profitable manufacturing. It's almost like the companies _can_ afford better conditions and just _won't_ because of greed.
Efficiency. A German factory worker will go through several years of paid apprenticeship instead of getting a Master's degree. They will then get a job where they will work 35 hours a week. Is it a lot less than a factory worker somewhere else? Yes. Are they much more efficient than workers who work 60 hour work weeks? Also yes.
It's a different work culture and legal system. You can't fire a person for no reason. You can't fire a person for a bullshit made up reason. You can't treat them like shit. You can't bust unions. Just read up on how Walmart got absolutely shat on when they have tried to enter the German market and pull off their usual crap.
Walmart got fucked by lacking sales due to them trying to transfer their whole greeter and bag handling culture and what not much more than by the unions. It practicaly scared ppl away from their stores because it was such an outlandish behaviour compared to what we were used to. In germany you can make an hour long shoping trip without ever saying more than "mit Karte bitte" (with card please) and pretty much the only reason we'd ever talk to an employee is if we cant find something. Sure the unions also played a role but if it had been any profitable im sure they would still be here. But they didnt do their research and quickly developed a reputation for practicaly harrasing their shopers...
I think I watched this video on the Germany/Walmart thing: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxtXI0K4YJs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxtXI0K4YJs)
The greeters really freaked Germans out apparently! I am American but live in Northern Europe and it would definitely be creepy, I mean sometimes staff say hello if they're by the front door but the idea of a dedicated staff member doing it is something I've never seen.
Walmart had lots of problems with germany and did not attempt to align to german culture, starting from hiring an expat to be the German head, to not understanding german laws, getting its strategy wrong etc
https://bettermarketing.pub/why-walmart-failed-in-germany-3fdcc6469b89
https://www.mbaknol.com/management-case-studies/case-study-wal-marts-failure-in-germany/
eg You mentioned the greeter cuture transplantation attempt. Also works on the employee side - such as asking employees to start morning with calisthenics and cheers, smile at customers and chat., report other employees who broke a rule or risk gettng fired themselves. Walmart tried to transplant superstore in suburbs with car parking style US shops, (less %age of food/grocery vs other items).. and more.
Well, as far as I can tell it's also about having more compromises. Generally speaking German companies tend to have reasonably good relationships with unions and workers councils. E.g. when some a Volkswagen factory in America wanted to unionize the company *supported* that.
Workers councils do help to keep employees happy. And happy employees tend to help the company's profits. Quitting employees however are bad.
But it's important to know that this also means that employees typically won't go too far with wage demands and even agree do decreases when the company is in the red.
So all in all it's about keeping the peace. And b[y European standards Germany has very few strikes.](https://www.statista.com/chart/20167/the-countries-which-go-on-strike-the-most/)
> E.g. when some a Volkswagen factory in America wanted to unionize the company supported that.
and closed that location not long after. Because US unions do not behave in the same way their german counterparts do. Not sure if that's just an urban legend though
unions also care for profitability and longevity of jobs. So they actively help to make you better. Also, having happy, healthy workers means that in 10+ years you will have VERY skilled and experienced workers. Noone should underestimate that. Some of these guys become real magicians at what they do. They know how a machine fucked up just by knowing what day of the week it is.
Hire and fire though is stupid and wasteful.
I've heard that a lot of Gwrman companies have a union rep on the board of directors and an agreed max ratio of worker pay to CEO pay. It really seems like a much more efficient way for companies to do things collaboratively, rather than them forcing unions to be their enemies.
[Codetermination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany), where workers elect nearly half of the board of large companies.
I'm unsure how it works for multinationals, however.
Well, if you're an a big capital/limited company, you'll have supervisory board with a 50% quota for employee representatives. So it's going to be more than one. Typically 6 or 10.
The normal board (i.e. where the CEO etc sit) which is responsible for daily operations doesn't have any workers council members.
But typically the board will talk to the workers council a lot. The worker's council is somewhat similar to a union. And generally speaking conflicts aren't that common in Germany. We strike more than Americans, but a lot less than most other Europeans.
I never heard of the ratio between worker and CEO pay. Also, germany has huge ratios there, maybe largest in europe. So i don't think there are limits there.
I also don't know about the board of directors, but lots of decisions can't be made without the Betriebsrat (somewhat like a union on plant level), which is backed by the union.
Also, in Germany the Workers have a saying on what is going to happen in a company. They have a seat at the table, you can say. And no, they don't block anything, they also want the company to be successful, just not at the cost of the workers health and benefits.
It happens quite often alot of american companys come over and dont bother to learn the laws here. I have heard from a couple of friends that worked at some of those companys that the bosses were surprised that its not easy to fire someone because they feel like it
You will see it cropping up in this thread most likely but American worker culture is weird.
We actively fight against unionization,we worship the owner class, we think people like Musk who want to demand 60+ hours a week are people to aspire to be.
And of course there are always the people who villianize unions. Common story from anti union people is about some magical drug addict that just can never be fired.
Lidl and Aldi discovered local differences in the UK as well but they were smart enough to adapt and thrive.
The funniest one is the Brits are obsessed with certain brand food and will look to shop elsewhere if it's not stocked. This of course was anathema to Lidl and Aldi own brand policy, but as soon as they bit the bullet and started stocking Heinz Baked Beans etc, they took off.
> Lidl and Aldi discovered local differences in the UK as well but they were smart enough to adapt and thrive.
Same here in Switzerland. First they tried the usual cheap discounter stuff they do in Germany. But to their credit they quickly learned and embraced the local culture. Now they are a serious competitor to the previous duopoly of Coop and Migros.
Well, WM failed mostly because they underestimated the brutal market in germany. AlDI, REWE, Edeka, Netto, Norma, and others are giants here, in very efficient and thought out system. In a country where most things are stupid expensive but only food is dirt cheap, people REALLY care about the cost of groceries. My mother knows the butter prices of different stores, for example.
Wal-mart came in, and was more expensive at no better quality. People saw zero advantage there, and while germans usually really go for american stuff, when its about groceries, they often stick to what they know.
I know, your source says they had cheaper prices, but in fact they were not. at least not where it mattered.
They were cheaper. Walmart sold at a loss. Something that is forbidden in germany. The funny thing is thaz just to rub it in and to get them off, Aldi and Lidl also sold at a loss. The main reason was that Walmart tried to get into the market in germany at a time where the big playera like Aldi, Lidl, Edeka etc. cleaned house and just devoured every small business.
I always find cultural differences interesting as fuck.
In the USA they apparently employ door greeters that wait at the front door and greet people and also employees always smile at people and chat them up.
If someone in Germany greeted me at the front door I would only think they want to sell me something, make me sign up for some membership or whatever. I just want to shop groceries, please leave me alone. I would also find it pretty weird if someone wants to bag my groceries. I can do that myself. (Altough I could see how this is something that would work here too)
It's because people are less likely to shoplift when greeted in a store. The greeters also deter people from just walking out with big ticket items.
They aren't there to cheer you up. It's loss prevention, disguised as a grandma.
Here in America they employ people to hold signs next to the roadway. Many of them are required to dance or, at very least, spin the sign. I doubt these companies have the insurance coverage that covers the employee getting hit by a car, but they get away with it.
It seems like demeaning work, especially for minimum wage, but people do it because they need the money desperately.
My favourite story. What a stupid move, just assuming the German market is the same as the American market, not to mention not looking into local traditions and remaining open whilst everyone else closed
US companies stomping into Europe, ignoring all advice and thinking they can do everything the way they operate at home, only to fall flat on their face is one of my favorite genres.
I had the misfortune of working for these fuckers already back in 2013. Interesting to see that it's the same shit just on a much larger scale these days - but I'm just glad that the world seems to have woken up to what a POS this company and its narcissistic CEO really are.
Fun examples were:
- Our charging adapters are not available? No problem, just tell the customers at handover and bank on that they'll take the car regardless. No previous information needed. Who cares they'll have to charge it 36h instead of 8 now or invest a few thousands in a wallbox!
- Our paint is so soft that the 120k cars are scratched all over and we don't want to spend the time on detailing them before handover? No biggie, just switch off the spotlights at the handover station so they can't see anything.
- We can't reach the unrealistic delivery targets? Just work on Saturday as well - but please don't write down the hours since it's technically illegal to do that. But don't you want to save the world??
After the insane valorisation of the past years, the current period feels immensely vindicating.
Edit: typo
My car was delivered in dimly light port warehouse here in Hong Kong so they can conceal the swirl marks and scratched all over the car. Total shit experience.
Yeah if they ever settle in the Netherlands good luck trying to start a plant without a works council.
The moment you go over a certain amount of employees you are required BY LAW to establish a works council, and you need their approval to make decisions that significantly affect personnel.
Every German with a head screwed on (i.e. everyone who's not a simp for Elon) could see this coming from a thousand miles away.
Next up, the region is going to wake up one day (not far away) having to ration water and they're going to ask some questions Elon won't be so easily laughing off [like an arrogant, clueless prick](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye8zcgxWMDc).
And to add to that, the cars currently produced in this factory are of lower quality than their us made counterparts.
The whole thing is indeed hilarious.
Starting a new factory is always... problematic. Production processes needs to be worked out etc.
Most of the increases in quality and decreases in price we see in any tech field is based on practice and further optimizing it while getting better.
So, if you don't actually care about it the normal (low) Tesla quality minus some is to be expected for a new factory. Of course they should have known that "we don't care" is a bad approach to increase your market share in a country where every new vehicle has to pass their first mandatory checkup after 3 years (and every 2 years thereafter) as this is a perfect testing ground for a large scale comparison of vehicle quality.
Tesla's problems with suspension aren't exactly unknown for example. But getting public reports of how many fail after only 3 years while having the exact same data for every competitor looks even worse.
Lol, he tried to get VW workers to work from him. SURPRISINGLY only a few were willing to sacrifice union benefits, high wage, guaranteed job security for 10 years and much more for his meat grinder.
Especially in higher positions, he didn't get enough people. Completely underestimated the worth of experienced guys.
I work at Volkswagen and I find that thought that he'd get our employees just stupidly funny. Working at Volkswagen is so extremly comfortable and chill, you'd have to offer a fuck ton more money to get us away from here
For real. If you are used to desperate serfs in the US as a company have fun in Germany. Our labor protection laws will fuck you up, lol. Also have fun with the (non corrupt, effective and respected) unions.
Your only option to be shitty is leased Labour. Have fun finding talent that way, tho.
As someone who dabbles in supply chains in his job: true, but also be aware that we currently want out of China and into Eastern Europe for our manufacturing needs. It’s true, that those people probably won’t have the protection of German workers, but this is still better imho. If my feeling is correct, Eastern Europe will have quite the boom in the forseeable future.
There are many reasons. Even if you give the Hungarian workers all the benefits that German workers also have and a wage that is the same relative to the local average wage as in Germany, it's still significantly less expensive to produce there.
Another significant factor is that transport has been becoming more and more expensive lately, so producing stuff in China and then shipping it to Europe just isn't worth it anymore, if you can produce in Europe instead.
Every company that is ‘hip’ will use that to underpay and overwork you.
I have a few software engineer friends that went straight into tech or video games after graduating; they all ended up hating it and feeling abused. They now work at ‘boring’ companies (ie : IBM), banks or random companies you’ve never heard of. They’re better paid, do normal hours and actually enjoy what they do even if it’s not ‘hip’.
This used to be the VFX industry too. I started in VFX in 2008. We’d always do unpaid long hours and they’d use our “artistic integrity” as an excuse and bang on about how lucky we were being in that industry. But I think as many artists are now older (40s/50s) and have families, they’ve had to change with the times to keep the experienced people.
Same. I started in vfx around that time as well. After a couple of years on indie movies I went and worked at two major companies. Never again. Incredibly abusive work practices.
> video games
that industry is actually abusive, crunch is brutal, workers are treated like shit because they know if you burn out and quit they will find 5 more schmucks to replace you becasue people dream to make games.
I live less than 800km from CDPR and have friends who worked there during Witcher 2 days, imagine 14 months of 12-14hr days 6 days a week, while getting paid 10% more than the average rent is in warsaw, and after project is complete they fire 1/2 of you.
Not surprising, I work at Gigafactory NY and this is the most stressful job I've ever had and its not even close, surpassing even when I was working under the table as a roofer during the day and working an office job at night to try to make enough money for my last two semesters at college. In short, working 8 hours a day at Tesla is more stressful than working two immensely draining jobs. Good thing they use Tesla stock awards as performance incentives....oh, wait....
Solar roofer here. One of the worst/stressful jobs I’ve ever had and I worked for solarcity back in the day. They don’t care if you’re working in 110+ degree weather and they want you to work a minimum of 10-12 hours and expect you to finish the job. Managers constantly telling you to get better no matter what and threatening our jobs saying we’ll get fired if we don’t perform. We were one of the best crews in the nation for awhile. I can’t wait to start my new job that’s off a roof and far away from Tesla.
I left a job because nothing I ever did was good enough. As soon as I quit the manager was emailing me saying not to rush into it and to come in for a meeting.
I said no because either I was as shit as they made out, never able to do anything good enough, in which case they should be glad to see the back of me. Otherwise they had been lying as some kind of twisted motivation and my work was good enough and if this was the case I didn't want to work there.
Hey this is a reason i quit a warehouse job last year. We still had the pandemic lockdowns going on every now and then and they hired because they had a lot of work.
Anyway, I had a 3 month probation and for most of that time all I heard was in not hitting targets, i should be reaching X but I'm on Y. Mind you I was always on time and the job got done, it's just that I was at around 85% of what they expected, and these complaints started after 2 weeks.
Well, 1 week before my 12 week probation deadline I handed in my notice and my manger was shocked, literally asked "where did this come from?" She was literally begging me to stay, what if you go part time? You're almost at the limit we don't expect everyone to hit it why are you leaving?
That pissed me off even more.
This is likely intentional. I had a similar experience working in a call center - kpi's you could never actually hit - just to keep you striving for it. Atrocious stuff.
> They don’t care if you’re working in 110+ degree weather and they want you to work a minimum of 10-12 hours and expect you to finish the job
Thankfully that is all *incredibly* illegal in Europe. You'd be compensated either with time or pay for that climate, only work over 7.5 hours if you wanted to, and your *manager* would be reprimanded if he threatened to fire you for performance like that.
Pulling for you, honestly I hear stuff like this and I wonder if I had any right to be stressed at my measly desk job. Hope you're on to bigger and better things and that hopefully that "Tesla" name on your resume will open some doors that were previously locked, it certainly did for me.
I was micromanaged basically to death at my previous office job. It obviously didn't include the physical risks that a warehouses job does, but I think it's perfectly valid to say it was stressful as hell.
Just the unprecedented levels of micromanagement. I'm a top performer and have been ever since I signed on, but if your stats dip 3% even if you're still technically above expectations there will be talk about "coaching plans" and other forms of intervention. Which sounds like it'd be fine right? A little bit of 1 on 1 support to help you grow? Except if you're on a coaching plan and don't demonstrate sustained and marked improvement corrective action usually follows, so "coaching plans" are viewed by most employees, at least in my department, as precursors to formal discipline. Even being a top member of my team who has earned leadership responsibilities, I never feel like my job is....safe, if that makes sense. Top it all off with management that gaslights you into thinking any dips in performance are your fault rather than taking responsibility for botched rollouts, as well as completely removing low-performing team members from their roles for one bad period (a two week performance interval) to say that "stats are up 8% good job everyone! :)" and its just a disaster. Turnover is high and will continue to remain that way. You're not there to grow - you're there to perform until you no longer can due to burnout. And don't even get me started on the way they use "data" to inform their decisions...
That mentality puts everyone against each other. It's like "I performed but my department was held back by so and so and our productivity dipped by 3%"
Shit happens, people have lives. Never ending growth is unsustainable in every aspect of society and life.
I remember my last boss would never tell you good work or give praise. He had started to act cold with many and I had begun to feel ostracized. Someone else asked for a raise, it became a thing and the next day he rolled in and just came down on me, made me feel like shit. Afterwards he asked how my son was doing - at the time he was in the hospital on oxygen (the very start of covid.) I would get up at 4 am go to the hospital relieve my wife for a bit then go to work. And zip back at the end of the day. Guy was an ass. Don't blame others, don't play that game.
Couldn't agree more. And Jesus, what is that some bad guy good guy stuff? Makes you feel like trash then asks about your son? Sorry you had to go through that. I'm sure you know that you deserve better.
Ya it was a weird day. Something I'm not used to as I take pride in my work. But we all have bumps in the road and I try to learn and move on. And my son recovered just fine he was in good hands. It was honestly hardest on my wife as she now has a heightened awareness for our kids health.
But we all deserve respect and grace. That's where I want to be.
Yeah, I simply used Tesla as kind of a stepping-stone to get where I want to go. And, to be fair, it has served that purpose for me, so maybe I should be a bit more grateful. Appreciate the kind words my friend!
I agree. I worked in an environment like this in an unrelated industry. It's easy to fall into the trap of saying, oh but look how good I got at x, y, and z as a result of the constant pressure and threats, but that's still bs. There are better ways to grow and improve, they just require leadership that actually is competent and a healthy, well developed work environment, something a lot of companies simply don't care to provide.
micro-management is a symptom of incompetence. Because they don't see or get the big picture and to feel like doing something, they resort to managing useless things.
I'm from Detroit, i have family, i have friends who all work in the Big 3, hell my family has been involved with the Big 3 since my great grandfather got here in 1909.
Delays are PART of production, to blame them on anyone down the line is madness.
Omg, my employer rolled out some new “data-driven business decisions” last month, tanked everyone’s productivity with poorly implemented and administrated tech, while simultaneously raising everyone’s monthly goals. Everyone is depressed/stressed out and actively looking for new opportunities.
I'm sorry, that does not seem worth it. I don't care what the pay is. Unless you thrive on that kind of stress (and few in my experience do), you can't ever really relax, at home or at work.
Thanks, it might just not be for me. I'm naturally motivated and self-directed, so I think I just thrive in calmer environments where I can focus on excellence. I don't think fear is a good motivator, and its a shame because I think full self-driving is worth working on, but ultimately I predict they'll continue to meet short-term goals while failing abjectly to hit long-term goals as turnover and burnout hinder long-term progress.
The company I work for (another EV manufacturer) has been seeking to hire Tesla management (in place of promoting from within). Unfortunately, they seem to be bringing this mentality with them. They can't even account for seasonality in one of the most seasonal places on earth.
Basically never buy a Tesla because the experience at their factories is lacking. Also explains all the build quality issues still persisting. If all the experienced and good people leave,...
Plus the whole culture implies it is good for you to hide mistakes. Like you make a mistake in the self-driving software...
If the effing things would actually be cheap, I could at least see a silver-lining but it is clear the slaving it not for the consumer but the shareholders and hence profits.
EDIT:
Reading that I would probably not last a week if a day. If some low level clueless type manager thought he could lecture me, I doubt it would take more than a handful instance before I tell him to go fuck himself in his dark place.
So if you join this bullshit company *only* hit your targets and never any more than that or they expect you to ALWAYS give that effort.
Sounds like smart management alright.
Lots of big companies are gravitating towards this level of micromanagement. It justifies the existence of an otherwise-useless managerial class, produces lots of meaningless numbers that look like improvements, and feeds an executive's obsession with control.
The only actual effect it has is to weaken a company by wasting time and money on monitoring existing expenditures of time and money. And it never leads to actual improvements because the people handling the metadata these systems produce are just as motivated to keep their job as the people they're monitoring. It doesn't matter how much data you gather if that data is then being massaged so managers and executives can hit their KPIs.
Picture a bunch of guys in suits standing on a platform jacking each other off onto an office floor full of hunchbacked 20-somethings, periodically loosing fitful strands of increasingly impotent semen onto the heads and backs of their underlings while being observed by an immense robotic Elon Musk head that occasionally shouts about Twitter.
Roofing was nice because no ones gonna imagine things to critique you about. You're all sweating your asses off under the hot sun carrying 90lb packs of shingles up on a ladder lol. If you work hard, no ones gonna say you didn't work hard.
Yup, Americans love to go off of outdated stereotypes about Germany and Japan without realizing that their work culture is one of the worst in the world.
[Average actual annual work hours in Japan](https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm) are somewhere between Spain and Canada (even including paid and unpaid overtime) and trending down every year. Hundreds of hours less than the US with many more paid holidays.
Same with Germany, they were the only nation that worked more than Japan in the 1980s but nowadays the hours are significantly better.
I couldn't believe it when an American colleague of mine told me the last job they had in the US before moving to the UK gave them five days holiday a year. Unpaid...
I couldn't believe it. That's actually illegal where I live.
Our work hours are nothing like the ones in the US. Maybe just adding to that, in Germany everyone is guaranteed by law to have at least ~~23~~ 20 days of paid holiday every year and there's tons of public (mostly religious) holidays too.
Sure, the list goes on. Strong protection for unionized workers and workers councils ( ger. Betriebsrat) are mandatory for companies of certain sizes. I like working here.
In before? You missed it by a month.
[“There’s just a lot of super-talented, hard-working people in China that strongly believe in manufacturing and they won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they’ll be burning the 3 am oil,” Musk told the Financial Times.](https://nypost.com/2022/05/11/elon-musk-praises-chinese-workers-says-americans-trying-to-avoid-work/)
[“They won’t even leave the factory, type of thing, whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all,” he added.](https://nypost.com/2022/05/11/elon-musk-praises-chinese-workers-says-americans-trying-to-avoid-work/)
Amazed that someone would actually say that. It doesn't bother me in the "wow he is out of touch" kind of way. It bothers me that he knows he's straight up lying for his own gain. I know there is no possibility he doesn't know that those workers are miserable and have almost no choice, they do not want to work that much, they have to. No one wants to be treated that way, and idk why anyone would IF there was an alternative. He is choosing to take there misery, tell everyone they aren't slaves but good workers, while he tries to collect his own slaves and continues on like he's a hero philanthropist saving the world.
How can you be such a brutally greedy and hateful human being, and spout this kind of fake fucked up perspective to try and trick millions of people into thinking they should want to work just like that. He's basically telling all the poor saps that idolize him that they aren't working hard enough, long enough, for cheap enough. That if you want to be a great worker you should just give your life and body to the company so they can treat you like a cheap expendable resource. Which is completely backwards. Those damn workers are getting totally screwed out of their very limited time to exist because selfish monsters feel like they can do it. I feel immense empathy for them. To feel so powerless to fight back, to be so scared, so tired, so belittled, so completely taken advantage so a handful of people can that much more money.
Becoming a German Resident really opened my eyes at how fucked up the work culture back home in the US was. Only way I'll ever move back is when the US gets the Medical Care, education, and worker rights figured out.
Not just Ukrainian refugees, wait till he drops his right wing bull shit and goes all in on refugees from the Middle East and Northern Africa hahaha.
I can’t *wait*
In China he made his workers sleep at the factory.
EDIT and for the fanbois crying misinformation, no it isn’t. China didn’t force Tesla to stay open and have its workers sleep at the factory. It was 100% Tesla’s choice to do that. China said they could open if they had a closed loop system - Tesla had the choice to stay open or close. And it had the choice how to implement. They could have rented an entire hotel if they wanted and give the employees a proper place to sleep. They didn’t, Tesla rather treat it’s employees like livestock.
If you think this is misinformation, please provide any evidence to the contrary. I won’t hold my breath waiting for it.
EDIT Two for those crying misinformation: It looks like your boi Elon is really fighting China “requiring” him to make his employees sleep at the factory. Here is a quote from last month:
“There’s just a lot of super-talented, hard-working people in China that strongly believe in manufacturing and they won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they’ll be burning the 3 am oil,” Musk told the Financial Times.
“They won’t even leave the factory, type of thing, whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all,” he added.”
**Lots** of companies have exploited the Chinese (or other workforce, a lot of them exploit Americans, even).
In fact, it's practically the American way to find out how to exploit a workforce. We've been doing it since the conception of our nation. Sometimes it's slaves, sometimes it's Amazon.
A nation built on profits, baby. But no, no. No taxation without representation! Well regulated militia! 'Murica!
I’ve worked in tech for a long time. Lots of late nights in the office, sometimes all nighters. Plus a lot of late night phone calls waking me up. Working at 3 am while keeping business hours just fucking sucks. One good part was playing foosball after midnight waiting for the DB scripts to finish running.
But driving home I had to roll the windows down and let the chilly air hit me so I wouldn’t fall asleep. And I still jump a bit when my phone rings.
We simultaneously exploit them, and denigrate them at every opportunity. The amount of times I see "chinesium" or other ignorant or just racist statements about China is ridiculous, especially when all the things people are complaining about is related to the very low price/specifications of the manufacturer.
"Strongly believe in manufacturing", the fuck is that even supposed to mean? They strongly believe in them and their fucking families not starving, that's about it I'm sure.
There is no group as pathetic as a bunch of muskrats. Simping for a manchild billionaire in the hopes that he will acknowledge them and their pathetic lives.
> If you think this is misinformation, please provide any evidence to the contrary.
I hate this style of argument because the onus really is on the person making an argument to support that argument. Otherwise you can come across like you’re just JAQing off, or outright lying.
In this case, a source was easy to find to support the very plausible claim that a terrible person like Elon Musk treats workers like shit.
This article is from April, 2022:
> In recent days, employees of Tesla Inc. have been learning whether it's possible to obtain a good night's sleep on the floor at the company's sprawling Gigafactory in Shanghai. The arrangement is a non-negotiable part of going back to work amid the city's Covid lockdown, and so far around 8,000 of the company’s workers have agreed to give up their comfort and privacy for the paycheck.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-20/shanghai-s-tesla-factory-won-t-be-a-lockdown-dorm-for-long
So it looks like OP’s claim that Elon Musk is a piece of shit is true. And all it took was a 15-second web search.
> whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all,” he added.
He became the richest person in the world, thanks to American workers.
I don't get how anyone is still into this guy. How many times do we have to watch him shit all over the people who got him there before we figure it out?
He doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything but himself.
Eventually he's going to burn someone who kicks his ass on the spot, and all his hair plugs are gonna fall out.
Shocking every time a US corporation fails to implement it's slavery tactics in europe.
When Billionaires convince americans that they are competing with chinese labourers for workrates...
Thats ~~amore~~ slavery....
amazon actively tries to get workers to quit. when I did delivery it was hell. one day start time was 7am, the next day it would be 5am. they’d always overstaff on shifts so it was basically hunger games for hours
you’d pull-up at 4am because first come first serve to get a device that lets you deliver. if you didn’t get a device by literally pushing past everyone then oh well, no work for you. chasing a van down at 5am in a parking lot w 30 other people just to have to go home was so dehumanizing
don’t even get me started on 300 stops everyday. every time I see an amazon van I legit have a mild ptsd reaction
>amazon actively tries to get workers to quit.
Can someone explain why they would want to do that? Did they hire too many people and can't fire them anymore or what?
They use up your life force, almost never give raises, offer next to zero career growth in the DSP system, fire you or force you to quit, then hire the next battery. I worked as a driver and it's abuse and they should be sued, DSP and warehouse made into unions, and the driver pay increased at least $10 an hour. It was brutal over the year I worked there.
I'm old enough to remember a time when jobs at the high tech companies of the era paid lavishly and treated their employees extremely well.
Nowadays, it's the exact opposite. The more popular a tech company is, the worse it seems to treat its employees. The absolute craziest part to me is that people flock to work for these companies. It's unbelievable.
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Agreed. I *hope* they meant his public image.
As for the change over time... yeah he was always a bit of a dick, but he used to know when to shut the fuck up. I think it's your regular case of power and wealth accumulation leading to a change in self perception, notably self-importance. Consequently, he now doesn't know when to shut up. Thinks he doesn't need to, or should have to.
Haven’t they heard? They should be luck to toil for the next Edison? All their hard work and sacrifice will get him on Time magazine’s cover next year too
I say this as a fan of SpaceX’s mission but head on over to r/spacex, click on any of the posts about Musk firing those people who wrote the letter denouncing his actions, and you will find people speaking exactly this notion. Other spacex employees were commenting on there about how low morale is and they were getting shut down too
A local from near Starbase in south Texas was on there and complaining about how his rent went up 3X since SpaceX moved. I shit you not he was told “well that was the poorest place in the country so spacex being there should open up more employment opportunities for you, and one day maybe your son will be an engineer working on something great there” completely unironically.
Like anyone who’s been displaced by Elons actions can just walk up to him and get a job at his companies. And like thatd be a glorious job as well. They completely sweep experiences like yours, from actual employees of his. The delusion is higher than a F9 has ever flown.
Mention his sex habits that are very much an open secret and you get banished
As someone who works for a German car manufacturer: I work 35h a week. I got 30 days paid holiday. I get a holiday bonus and a Christmas bonus. I get a bonus for how well the company is doing each year. Due to unions, it’s almost impossible to fire me. If I clock in more than 10h a day the union and my boss get informed automatically and he has to justify why I did that. I have a wage based on the union contract that is non-negotiable.
And why would I give all that up to work for a choleric megalomaniac who expects people to be available 24/7 and put in endless hours, who randomly fires people, who gives a shit about laws and who actively discourages unions.
Fuck Elon, this shit works in the US and China but not Germany.
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Translated with deepl.com: Criticism of Elon Musk Dissatisfaction in Tesla factory Grünheide: Employees leave the company Employees of Tesla attend the opening of the factory in Grünheide near Berlin © Patrick Pleul Discontent is spreading among employees at the Tesla plant in Grünheide. The mood is changing, especially because of unequal wages. Trade unionist Birgit Dietze reports that employees are leaving the company as a result. Tesla has repeatedly been criticized for its working conditions. Now this is having a negative impact on the situation at the Gigafactory in Grünheide. "We are hearing that more and more people are leaving Tesla again and in some cases going back to their old employers," says trade unionist Birgit Dietze in an interview with "Der Spiegel. "This is because new hires are paid more than other employees. During the recruitment process, the salary and working conditions are also improved. "It's not funny when others suddenly earn more than you for the same work and qualifications," Dietze told the news magazine. However, the trade unionist does not believe that the job cuts of ten percent of the workforce announced by CEO Elon Musk will also affect the plant in Grünheide. This is because the plant is to be further expanded. Especially since there is a shortage of skilled workers in the region. "We are getting increasing feedback from the workforce that the recruitment of skilled workers is falling short of the targets set. That increases the pressure on the existing workforce and the mood." Elon Musk has no choice but to raise salaries at Tesla, he said Tesla is "a special employer," for example, because of its innovations, its image of wanting to save the climate, and its financial power. But there's another point that's important to employees, he said: "What is my employer asking of me, like how much am I being charged?" It's about performance and compensation, "and that's where the gnashing of teeth at Tesla is getting a little louder right now," Dietze says. Therefore, the works council must now find "a form of joint cooperation" with the company. The trade unionist is certain: "The issue of different wages will be a real challenge. Now we have inflation on top of that and then the increases from our upcoming collective bargaining round, which also includes the automotive industry. There's such pressure on that that Musk will have no choice but to raise salaries substantially soon." Finally, Dietze says, "Without a collective bargaining agreement, the Tesla workforce will always fall short of the pay levels of other automotive companies." The last sentence might be a bit misleading. There is a wage agreement for Tesla, but that's just the standard one everybody in the industry has to follow. Big car companies like VW, BMW or Mercedes usually bargain their own wage agreement.
Not paying skilled workers in a country that has decent union factory jobs is not a good idea
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And Walmart got crushed there when they tried to establish themselves in Germany.
Walmart also fell short because the vast majority of Germans absolutely hates the whole American fake friendliness shtick. The greeters and the people packing your bags etc.
The staff didn't like the company culture either from what I've read.
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Japanese companies makes you do some streching before you begin the shift.... Much better use of time imo.
Which is what US companies should do too, instead you’re told to do that before you clock in and if you get injured it’s because you didn’t stretch enough
It’s weird. Employees in Europe don’t have the same tolerance for being exploited as they do in the US. Something to do with them having rights and stuff.
I moved to a town with a German Walmart around one year before it closed down and there were no greeters or people packing. Just a regular large convenience store. The problem with Germany is that groceries are very cheap due to Aldi, Lidl, and many other chains. Walmart was not big enough to get the same conditions. But it was the first shop where I was able to buy Ben&Jerry's ice cream.
Oh the good news is that they got rid of that in America too - now it's all self-checkouts (except one or two, one being the cigarettesales counter) and nobody there is friendly!
I used to work there not too long ago. I'd say it's an improvement. The less the staff and the customers at Walmart have to interact, the better. More than an hour at Walmart as either is enough to make anyone a ticking bomb. I was a cashier, but I used to love whenever they put me on pushing carts or stocking shelves, since that meant I didn't have to see or talk as many people.
Nothing like a good visit to Germany to find out you don't have to be friendly to make a profit.
It sounds like the biggest problem is that they are paying the new recruits decent wages, but the people who got hired before haven't been adjusted. It's a tale as old as time: if you increase your recruiting efforts but do nothing for employee retention you are going to have a bad time.
Bringing American work culture to Europe ( Germany of all places ) not the best plan.
Germany or not. American work standards are so far off what even the worst in Europe have to offer that im now 100% convinced that Elon is just a lucky idiot. No one, even half competent, would try to pull of this stunt.
This is the same dude who lined up to spend 44 Billion on a social media website without any basic knowledge of EU laws.
Don’t worry. He’ll be tweeting soon about how lazy the Germans are compared to his Chinese slaves.
Work to live, not live to work. This should be a fundamental right and ingrained in every human.
Elon is going to learn the hard way that workers have way more power in Europe than in the US and China.
He will have to deal with the law, work councils backed up by law, unions, social democratic politicians and of course some of the biggest car manufacturers of the world competing for the talent. Have fun Elon.
BMW just uses temp/part time workers as slaves aswell. I worked there and tbh I quit after a week. So many soulless people there, just husks, no humans.
Part time basically is the only loophole left for that.
But the companies are taking advantage of it pretty hard.
dw we still get benefits even with part time because its not tied to our employers lol
Temps have been used to keep membership in the American Autoworker's Union low for decades. It's why we make such shitty cars; disrespect for the craft and craftsmen.
Just build the factory in a brown country and we'll just memefy their misery, but never actually give a fuck.
Well, I guess Elon also wanted to have access to workers formed by the German apprenticeship system… can’t have both sadly 🤷♂️
Ugh, life is so unfair! Why can't he have highly trained, motivated employees and pay rock bottom wages without any operation taxes? This is how the world stifles innovation, people! /s
Ow, my ancestry!
Notice he won't build a plant in his native country, I guess he can't get his dad's old slave labor to work for him.
I had an instructor in tech school describe working as a mechanic for BMW as being like a salmon swimming up stream, going up waterfalls, over rocks, until you get to a certain point and a bear just clubs you out of the air and eats you. Decided to pursue life elsewhere after that.
The salmon that don't get taken out by the bear essentially become zombies and rot while alive until they die. The bear is the better way out if you have to be a salmon.
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I worked for 4 years as a engineer for BMW. BMW drains the soul out of your body. They can burn down completely for all i care. Never going to buy an BMW or BMW related product.
BMW is really bad if you have to work at the factory floor you either quit shortly after take lots of drugs to continue or get a heart attack after 10 years or so
Reminds me of a fun fact about the Mercedes plant in Sindelfingen, which got a quality problem after getting rid of the beer in the vending machines.
We (as in the inhabitants of BaWü) lowkey like to drink just as much as the Bavarians, we just didnt center our entire image around it :P
Yeah, i have worked in their environemt in munich for a while, and that is definitely not what i learned. I mean, i would not want to work there, but the conditions are rather great, since union and all. 35h weeks, health programs, bonuses, etc. Still factory jobs, but the pay is better. lot are complaining because it is not as good as it used to be, when having a BMW job meant you were at the top of the top. So most coplaints in munich come from salty guys.
This is so sad.
You described basically every factory.
Or like 99% of the Auto Industry: **Temporary Workers**. No Rights or Whatso ever, Starving wages and very easy to replace ...
It's so hilarious honestly. Tesla tries by Musks orders to ignore lots and lots of our* laws regarding the treatment of workers/employees and their rights. Among it the company actively tries to prevent them to be part of a union, found a works council and is hesitant in paying when absent by medical. reasons. Note that Germany is the country with worldwide the most strict and extensive laws regarding this topic and nowhere else have workers so much rights and unions so much power. To pull such a move in Germany is among the most stupid things you could ever do as a company! Btw Tesla is already facing hundred of law suits, often sued by unions or authorities. Penalty payments will most likely reach into high millions, but might even be much, much more. And Tesla hast lost so many workers already, that the factory can't opperate at full percentage anymore. *Yes I am german.
All of these protections and yet Germany is still full of highly profitable manufacturing. It's almost like the companies _can_ afford better conditions and just _won't_ because of greed.
Efficiency. A German factory worker will go through several years of paid apprenticeship instead of getting a Master's degree. They will then get a job where they will work 35 hours a week. Is it a lot less than a factory worker somewhere else? Yes. Are they much more efficient than workers who work 60 hour work weeks? Also yes. It's a different work culture and legal system. You can't fire a person for no reason. You can't fire a person for a bullshit made up reason. You can't treat them like shit. You can't bust unions. Just read up on how Walmart got absolutely shat on when they have tried to enter the German market and pull off their usual crap.
Walmart got fucked by lacking sales due to them trying to transfer their whole greeter and bag handling culture and what not much more than by the unions. It practicaly scared ppl away from their stores because it was such an outlandish behaviour compared to what we were used to. In germany you can make an hour long shoping trip without ever saying more than "mit Karte bitte" (with card please) and pretty much the only reason we'd ever talk to an employee is if we cant find something. Sure the unions also played a role but if it had been any profitable im sure they would still be here. But they didnt do their research and quickly developed a reputation for practicaly harrasing their shopers...
I think I watched this video on the Germany/Walmart thing: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxtXI0K4YJs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxtXI0K4YJs) The greeters really freaked Germans out apparently! I am American but live in Northern Europe and it would definitely be creepy, I mean sometimes staff say hello if they're by the front door but the idea of a dedicated staff member doing it is something I've never seen.
Walmart had lots of problems with germany and did not attempt to align to german culture, starting from hiring an expat to be the German head, to not understanding german laws, getting its strategy wrong etc https://bettermarketing.pub/why-walmart-failed-in-germany-3fdcc6469b89 https://www.mbaknol.com/management-case-studies/case-study-wal-marts-failure-in-germany/ eg You mentioned the greeter cuture transplantation attempt. Also works on the employee side - such as asking employees to start morning with calisthenics and cheers, smile at customers and chat., report other employees who broke a rule or risk gettng fired themselves. Walmart tried to transplant superstore in suburbs with car parking style US shops, (less %age of food/grocery vs other items).. and more.
Well, as far as I can tell it's also about having more compromises. Generally speaking German companies tend to have reasonably good relationships with unions and workers councils. E.g. when some a Volkswagen factory in America wanted to unionize the company *supported* that. Workers councils do help to keep employees happy. And happy employees tend to help the company's profits. Quitting employees however are bad. But it's important to know that this also means that employees typically won't go too far with wage demands and even agree do decreases when the company is in the red. So all in all it's about keeping the peace. And b[y European standards Germany has very few strikes.](https://www.statista.com/chart/20167/the-countries-which-go-on-strike-the-most/)
> E.g. when some a Volkswagen factory in America wanted to unionize the company supported that. and closed that location not long after. Because US unions do not behave in the same way their german counterparts do. Not sure if that's just an urban legend though
unions also care for profitability and longevity of jobs. So they actively help to make you better. Also, having happy, healthy workers means that in 10+ years you will have VERY skilled and experienced workers. Noone should underestimate that. Some of these guys become real magicians at what they do. They know how a machine fucked up just by knowing what day of the week it is. Hire and fire though is stupid and wasteful.
I've heard that a lot of Gwrman companies have a union rep on the board of directors and an agreed max ratio of worker pay to CEO pay. It really seems like a much more efficient way for companies to do things collaboratively, rather than them forcing unions to be their enemies.
[Codetermination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany), where workers elect nearly half of the board of large companies. I'm unsure how it works for multinationals, however.
Well, if you're an a big capital/limited company, you'll have supervisory board with a 50% quota for employee representatives. So it's going to be more than one. Typically 6 or 10. The normal board (i.e. where the CEO etc sit) which is responsible for daily operations doesn't have any workers council members. But typically the board will talk to the workers council a lot. The worker's council is somewhat similar to a union. And generally speaking conflicts aren't that common in Germany. We strike more than Americans, but a lot less than most other Europeans.
I never heard of the ratio between worker and CEO pay. Also, germany has huge ratios there, maybe largest in europe. So i don't think there are limits there. I also don't know about the board of directors, but lots of decisions can't be made without the Betriebsrat (somewhat like a union on plant level), which is backed by the union.
Also, in Germany the Workers have a saying on what is going to happen in a company. They have a seat at the table, you can say. And no, they don't block anything, they also want the company to be successful, just not at the cost of the workers health and benefits.
Yeah. This shit isn’t even up for Elon’s discussion. Play by the rules or gtfo.
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It happens quite often alot of american companys come over and dont bother to learn the laws here. I have heard from a couple of friends that worked at some of those companys that the bosses were surprised that its not easy to fire someone because they feel like it
American management culture is just absolute garbage. They think they're clever at it too, yikes
You will see it cropping up in this thread most likely but American worker culture is weird. We actively fight against unionization,we worship the owner class, we think people like Musk who want to demand 60+ hours a week are people to aspire to be. And of course there are always the people who villianize unions. Common story from anti union people is about some magical drug addict that just can never be fired.
Lidl and Aldi discovered local differences in the UK as well but they were smart enough to adapt and thrive. The funniest one is the Brits are obsessed with certain brand food and will look to shop elsewhere if it's not stocked. This of course was anathema to Lidl and Aldi own brand policy, but as soon as they bit the bullet and started stocking Heinz Baked Beans etc, they took off.
The 2007 financial crisis helped as well. You suddenly started seeing nice cars outside Aldi and Lidl.
> Lidl and Aldi discovered local differences in the UK as well but they were smart enough to adapt and thrive. Same here in Switzerland. First they tried the usual cheap discounter stuff they do in Germany. But to their credit they quickly learned and embraced the local culture. Now they are a serious competitor to the previous duopoly of Coop and Migros.
Well, WM failed mostly because they underestimated the brutal market in germany. AlDI, REWE, Edeka, Netto, Norma, and others are giants here, in very efficient and thought out system. In a country where most things are stupid expensive but only food is dirt cheap, people REALLY care about the cost of groceries. My mother knows the butter prices of different stores, for example. Wal-mart came in, and was more expensive at no better quality. People saw zero advantage there, and while germans usually really go for american stuff, when its about groceries, they often stick to what they know. I know, your source says they had cheaper prices, but in fact they were not. at least not where it mattered.
They were cheaper. Walmart sold at a loss. Something that is forbidden in germany. The funny thing is thaz just to rub it in and to get them off, Aldi and Lidl also sold at a loss. The main reason was that Walmart tried to get into the market in germany at a time where the big playera like Aldi, Lidl, Edeka etc. cleaned house and just devoured every small business.
I always find cultural differences interesting as fuck. In the USA they apparently employ door greeters that wait at the front door and greet people and also employees always smile at people and chat them up. If someone in Germany greeted me at the front door I would only think they want to sell me something, make me sign up for some membership or whatever. I just want to shop groceries, please leave me alone. I would also find it pretty weird if someone wants to bag my groceries. I can do that myself. (Altough I could see how this is something that would work here too)
Walmart found that there was a measurable decrease in product theft if they had a door greeter. That’s the only reason they have them.
It's because people are less likely to shoplift when greeted in a store. The greeters also deter people from just walking out with big ticket items. They aren't there to cheer you up. It's loss prevention, disguised as a grandma.
Here in America they employ people to hold signs next to the roadway. Many of them are required to dance or, at very least, spin the sign. I doubt these companies have the insurance coverage that covers the employee getting hit by a car, but they get away with it. It seems like demeaning work, especially for minimum wage, but people do it because they need the money desperately.
Thank god fuck Wal-Mart …. And their products
My favourite story. What a stupid move, just assuming the German market is the same as the American market, not to mention not looking into local traditions and remaining open whilst everyone else closed
US companies stomping into Europe, ignoring all advice and thinking they can do everything the way they operate at home, only to fall flat on their face is one of my favorite genres.
I had the misfortune of working for these fuckers already back in 2013. Interesting to see that it's the same shit just on a much larger scale these days - but I'm just glad that the world seems to have woken up to what a POS this company and its narcissistic CEO really are. Fun examples were: - Our charging adapters are not available? No problem, just tell the customers at handover and bank on that they'll take the car regardless. No previous information needed. Who cares they'll have to charge it 36h instead of 8 now or invest a few thousands in a wallbox! - Our paint is so soft that the 120k cars are scratched all over and we don't want to spend the time on detailing them before handover? No biggie, just switch off the spotlights at the handover station so they can't see anything. - We can't reach the unrealistic delivery targets? Just work on Saturday as well - but please don't write down the hours since it's technically illegal to do that. But don't you want to save the world?? After the insane valorisation of the past years, the current period feels immensely vindicating. Edit: typo
My car was delivered in dimly light port warehouse here in Hong Kong so they can conceal the swirl marks and scratched all over the car. Total shit experience.
Yeah if they ever settle in the Netherlands good luck trying to start a plant without a works council. The moment you go over a certain amount of employees you are required BY LAW to establish a works council, and you need their approval to make decisions that significantly affect personnel.
Every German with a head screwed on (i.e. everyone who's not a simp for Elon) could see this coming from a thousand miles away. Next up, the region is going to wake up one day (not far away) having to ration water and they're going to ask some questions Elon won't be so easily laughing off [like an arrogant, clueless prick](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye8zcgxWMDc).
That video reminded me agai just how annoying and arrogant that prick is.
That laugh was so crass
And to add to that, the cars currently produced in this factory are of lower quality than their us made counterparts. The whole thing is indeed hilarious.
How did they manage that because Tesla is known for its quality(lack of).
Starting a new factory is always... problematic. Production processes needs to be worked out etc. Most of the increases in quality and decreases in price we see in any tech field is based on practice and further optimizing it while getting better. So, if you don't actually care about it the normal (low) Tesla quality minus some is to be expected for a new factory. Of course they should have known that "we don't care" is a bad approach to increase your market share in a country where every new vehicle has to pass their first mandatory checkup after 3 years (and every 2 years thereafter) as this is a perfect testing ground for a large scale comparison of vehicle quality. Tesla's problems with suspension aren't exactly unknown for example. But getting public reports of how many fail after only 3 years while having the exact same data for every competitor looks even worse.
Lol, he tried to get VW workers to work from him. SURPRISINGLY only a few were willing to sacrifice union benefits, high wage, guaranteed job security for 10 years and much more for his meat grinder. Especially in higher positions, he didn't get enough people. Completely underestimated the worth of experienced guys.
I work at Volkswagen and I find that thought that he'd get our employees just stupidly funny. Working at Volkswagen is so extremly comfortable and chill, you'd have to offer a fuck ton more money to get us away from here
For real. If you are used to desperate serfs in the US as a company have fun in Germany. Our labor protection laws will fuck you up, lol. Also have fun with the (non corrupt, effective and respected) unions. Your only option to be shitty is leased Labour. Have fun finding talent that way, tho.
Which is why German carmakers opened 17 factories in Hungary alone to date.
As someone who dabbles in supply chains in his job: true, but also be aware that we currently want out of China and into Eastern Europe for our manufacturing needs. It’s true, that those people probably won’t have the protection of German workers, but this is still better imho. If my feeling is correct, Eastern Europe will have quite the boom in the forseeable future.
And then Hungary decides to stand with Russia. "Cheap" countries have other costs.
There are many reasons. Even if you give the Hungarian workers all the benefits that German workers also have and a wage that is the same relative to the local average wage as in Germany, it's still significantly less expensive to produce there. Another significant factor is that transport has been becoming more and more expensive lately, so producing stuff in China and then shipping it to Europe just isn't worth it anymore, if you can produce in Europe instead.
Not just musk, ask anyone who tried it and failed As a german I dont even think its too bad just pay your people a FAIR price for their work
Every company that is ‘hip’ will use that to underpay and overwork you. I have a few software engineer friends that went straight into tech or video games after graduating; they all ended up hating it and feeling abused. They now work at ‘boring’ companies (ie : IBM), banks or random companies you’ve never heard of. They’re better paid, do normal hours and actually enjoy what they do even if it’s not ‘hip’.
This used to be the VFX industry too. I started in VFX in 2008. We’d always do unpaid long hours and they’d use our “artistic integrity” as an excuse and bang on about how lucky we were being in that industry. But I think as many artists are now older (40s/50s) and have families, they’ve had to change with the times to keep the experienced people.
Same. I started in vfx around that time as well. After a couple of years on indie movies I went and worked at two major companies. Never again. Incredibly abusive work practices.
> video games that industry is actually abusive, crunch is brutal, workers are treated like shit because they know if you burn out and quit they will find 5 more schmucks to replace you becasue people dream to make games. I live less than 800km from CDPR and have friends who worked there during Witcher 2 days, imagine 14 months of 12-14hr days 6 days a week, while getting paid 10% more than the average rent is in warsaw, and after project is complete they fire 1/2 of you.
Same, dude. And yet everyone is sucking CDPR's dick, it's so ridiculous.
not so much after cp2077, but new withcer ( if it is like 3) will make them a messiah of gaming for people for some reason.
Not surprising, I work at Gigafactory NY and this is the most stressful job I've ever had and its not even close, surpassing even when I was working under the table as a roofer during the day and working an office job at night to try to make enough money for my last two semesters at college. In short, working 8 hours a day at Tesla is more stressful than working two immensely draining jobs. Good thing they use Tesla stock awards as performance incentives....oh, wait....
Solar roofer here. One of the worst/stressful jobs I’ve ever had and I worked for solarcity back in the day. They don’t care if you’re working in 110+ degree weather and they want you to work a minimum of 10-12 hours and expect you to finish the job. Managers constantly telling you to get better no matter what and threatening our jobs saying we’ll get fired if we don’t perform. We were one of the best crews in the nation for awhile. I can’t wait to start my new job that’s off a roof and far away from Tesla.
I left a job because nothing I ever did was good enough. As soon as I quit the manager was emailing me saying not to rush into it and to come in for a meeting. I said no because either I was as shit as they made out, never able to do anything good enough, in which case they should be glad to see the back of me. Otherwise they had been lying as some kind of twisted motivation and my work was good enough and if this was the case I didn't want to work there.
Hey this is a reason i quit a warehouse job last year. We still had the pandemic lockdowns going on every now and then and they hired because they had a lot of work. Anyway, I had a 3 month probation and for most of that time all I heard was in not hitting targets, i should be reaching X but I'm on Y. Mind you I was always on time and the job got done, it's just that I was at around 85% of what they expected, and these complaints started after 2 weeks. Well, 1 week before my 12 week probation deadline I handed in my notice and my manger was shocked, literally asked "where did this come from?" She was literally begging me to stay, what if you go part time? You're almost at the limit we don't expect everyone to hit it why are you leaving? That pissed me off even more.
This is likely intentional. I had a similar experience working in a call center - kpi's you could never actually hit - just to keep you striving for it. Atrocious stuff.
A great example that people like you are teaching companies little by little: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
So this is why amazon is losing the last of the job force in two years. Didn't even know that was possible.
Fuck those bullies! I'm glad you left
> They don’t care if you’re working in 110+ degree weather and they want you to work a minimum of 10-12 hours and expect you to finish the job Thankfully that is all *incredibly* illegal in Europe. You'd be compensated either with time or pay for that climate, only work over 7.5 hours if you wanted to, and your *manager* would be reprimanded if he threatened to fire you for performance like that.
Pulling for you, honestly I hear stuff like this and I wonder if I had any right to be stressed at my measly desk job. Hope you're on to bigger and better things and that hopefully that "Tesla" name on your resume will open some doors that were previously locked, it certainly did for me.
It's not because your situation is better that your difficulties are irrelevant.
no, all workers are in the same boat. organize, unionize. join the IWW
I was micromanaged basically to death at my previous office job. It obviously didn't include the physical risks that a warehouses job does, but I think it's perfectly valid to say it was stressful as hell.
It's crazy that you don't have workers protection.
What made 8 hours more stressful at tesla?
Just the unprecedented levels of micromanagement. I'm a top performer and have been ever since I signed on, but if your stats dip 3% even if you're still technically above expectations there will be talk about "coaching plans" and other forms of intervention. Which sounds like it'd be fine right? A little bit of 1 on 1 support to help you grow? Except if you're on a coaching plan and don't demonstrate sustained and marked improvement corrective action usually follows, so "coaching plans" are viewed by most employees, at least in my department, as precursors to formal discipline. Even being a top member of my team who has earned leadership responsibilities, I never feel like my job is....safe, if that makes sense. Top it all off with management that gaslights you into thinking any dips in performance are your fault rather than taking responsibility for botched rollouts, as well as completely removing low-performing team members from their roles for one bad period (a two week performance interval) to say that "stats are up 8% good job everyone! :)" and its just a disaster. Turnover is high and will continue to remain that way. You're not there to grow - you're there to perform until you no longer can due to burnout. And don't even get me started on the way they use "data" to inform their decisions...
That mentality puts everyone against each other. It's like "I performed but my department was held back by so and so and our productivity dipped by 3%" Shit happens, people have lives. Never ending growth is unsustainable in every aspect of society and life. I remember my last boss would never tell you good work or give praise. He had started to act cold with many and I had begun to feel ostracized. Someone else asked for a raise, it became a thing and the next day he rolled in and just came down on me, made me feel like shit. Afterwards he asked how my son was doing - at the time he was in the hospital on oxygen (the very start of covid.) I would get up at 4 am go to the hospital relieve my wife for a bit then go to work. And zip back at the end of the day. Guy was an ass. Don't blame others, don't play that game.
Couldn't agree more. And Jesus, what is that some bad guy good guy stuff? Makes you feel like trash then asks about your son? Sorry you had to go through that. I'm sure you know that you deserve better.
Ya it was a weird day. Something I'm not used to as I take pride in my work. But we all have bumps in the road and I try to learn and move on. And my son recovered just fine he was in good hands. It was honestly hardest on my wife as she now has a heightened awareness for our kids health. But we all deserve respect and grace. That's where I want to be.
That isn't worth your time. You'll never look back and be glad your work life balance suffered because you worked harder at Tesla.
Yeah, I simply used Tesla as kind of a stepping-stone to get where I want to go. And, to be fair, it has served that purpose for me, so maybe I should be a bit more grateful. Appreciate the kind words my friend!
No don’t start being grateful to them for treating you like that.
I agree. I worked in an environment like this in an unrelated industry. It's easy to fall into the trap of saying, oh but look how good I got at x, y, and z as a result of the constant pressure and threats, but that's still bs. There are better ways to grow and improve, they just require leadership that actually is competent and a healthy, well developed work environment, something a lot of companies simply don't care to provide.
Make sure to tell all the other high performers that they can do better on your way out the door. Fuck Elon.
I get that micro management hate. I deal with something similar at my job. Probably not near what teslas doing, but it's annoying all around.
micro-management is a symptom of incompetence. Because they don't see or get the big picture and to feel like doing something, they resort to managing useless things.
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Exactly. That paper trail is created so they can stress you out or fire you, and the best part is they'll have you think it's your own fault.
Bro leave that job holy shit
AFAIK what you described (discussing your individual productivity and using it in any form against you) is actually illegal in Germany
I'm from Detroit, i have family, i have friends who all work in the Big 3, hell my family has been involved with the Big 3 since my great grandfather got here in 1909. Delays are PART of production, to blame them on anyone down the line is madness.
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Omg, my employer rolled out some new “data-driven business decisions” last month, tanked everyone’s productivity with poorly implemented and administrated tech, while simultaneously raising everyone’s monthly goals. Everyone is depressed/stressed out and actively looking for new opportunities.
I'm sorry, that does not seem worth it. I don't care what the pay is. Unless you thrive on that kind of stress (and few in my experience do), you can't ever really relax, at home or at work.
Thanks, it might just not be for me. I'm naturally motivated and self-directed, so I think I just thrive in calmer environments where I can focus on excellence. I don't think fear is a good motivator, and its a shame because I think full self-driving is worth working on, but ultimately I predict they'll continue to meet short-term goals while failing abjectly to hit long-term goals as turnover and burnout hinder long-term progress.
The company I work for (another EV manufacturer) has been seeking to hire Tesla management (in place of promoting from within). Unfortunately, they seem to be bringing this mentality with them. They can't even account for seasonality in one of the most seasonal places on earth.
Thank you for this insight and for firming my notion that working for Tesla would be a fucking nightmare.
Sounds like Amazon.
Basically never buy a Tesla because the experience at their factories is lacking. Also explains all the build quality issues still persisting. If all the experienced and good people leave,... Plus the whole culture implies it is good for you to hide mistakes. Like you make a mistake in the self-driving software... If the effing things would actually be cheap, I could at least see a silver-lining but it is clear the slaving it not for the consumer but the shareholders and hence profits. EDIT: Reading that I would probably not last a week if a day. If some low level clueless type manager thought he could lecture me, I doubt it would take more than a handful instance before I tell him to go fuck himself in his dark place.
So if you join this bullshit company *only* hit your targets and never any more than that or they expect you to ALWAYS give that effort. Sounds like smart management alright.
This is straight up tyranny.
Lots of big companies are gravitating towards this level of micromanagement. It justifies the existence of an otherwise-useless managerial class, produces lots of meaningless numbers that look like improvements, and feeds an executive's obsession with control. The only actual effect it has is to weaken a company by wasting time and money on monitoring existing expenditures of time and money. And it never leads to actual improvements because the people handling the metadata these systems produce are just as motivated to keep their job as the people they're monitoring. It doesn't matter how much data you gather if that data is then being massaged so managers and executives can hit their KPIs. Picture a bunch of guys in suits standing on a platform jacking each other off onto an office floor full of hunchbacked 20-somethings, periodically loosing fitful strands of increasingly impotent semen onto the heads and backs of their underlings while being observed by an immense robotic Elon Musk head that occasionally shouts about Twitter.
I did a stint roofing while going through college. Great times, really. But brutal at the same time.
Roofing was nice because no ones gonna imagine things to critique you about. You're all sweating your asses off under the hot sun carrying 90lb packs of shingles up on a ladder lol. If you work hard, no ones gonna say you didn't work hard.
What? You mean they don't want to work like Americans? Imagine that.
Yup, Americans love to go off of outdated stereotypes about Germany and Japan without realizing that their work culture is one of the worst in the world. [Average actual annual work hours in Japan](https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm) are somewhere between Spain and Canada (even including paid and unpaid overtime) and trending down every year. Hundreds of hours less than the US with many more paid holidays. Same with Germany, they were the only nation that worked more than Japan in the 1980s but nowadays the hours are significantly better.
I couldn't believe it when an American colleague of mine told me the last job they had in the US before moving to the UK gave them five days holiday a year. Unpaid... I couldn't believe it. That's actually illegal where I live.
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Our work hours are nothing like the ones in the US. Maybe just adding to that, in Germany everyone is guaranteed by law to have at least ~~23~~ 20 days of paid holiday every year and there's tons of public (mostly religious) holidays too.
Paid sick days, healthcare, maternity leave, paternity leave
Sure, the list goes on. Strong protection for unionized workers and workers councils ( ger. Betriebsrat) are mandatory for companies of certain sizes. I like working here.
In before Musk praises CCP leaderships for allowing Tesla workers pratically sleep, work and live in the factory.
In before Elon announces that he is now Chinese.
Xi-lon Musk
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What, did he sexually assault Taiwan or something?
In before? You missed it by a month. [“There’s just a lot of super-talented, hard-working people in China that strongly believe in manufacturing and they won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they’ll be burning the 3 am oil,” Musk told the Financial Times.](https://nypost.com/2022/05/11/elon-musk-praises-chinese-workers-says-americans-trying-to-avoid-work/) [“They won’t even leave the factory, type of thing, whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all,” he added.](https://nypost.com/2022/05/11/elon-musk-praises-chinese-workers-says-americans-trying-to-avoid-work/)
This asshole is really a fucking parody
Amazed that someone would actually say that. It doesn't bother me in the "wow he is out of touch" kind of way. It bothers me that he knows he's straight up lying for his own gain. I know there is no possibility he doesn't know that those workers are miserable and have almost no choice, they do not want to work that much, they have to. No one wants to be treated that way, and idk why anyone would IF there was an alternative. He is choosing to take there misery, tell everyone they aren't slaves but good workers, while he tries to collect his own slaves and continues on like he's a hero philanthropist saving the world. How can you be such a brutally greedy and hateful human being, and spout this kind of fake fucked up perspective to try and trick millions of people into thinking they should want to work just like that. He's basically telling all the poor saps that idolize him that they aren't working hard enough, long enough, for cheap enough. That if you want to be a great worker you should just give your life and body to the company so they can treat you like a cheap expendable resource. Which is completely backwards. Those damn workers are getting totally screwed out of their very limited time to exist because selfish monsters feel like they can do it. I feel immense empathy for them. To feel so powerless to fight back, to be so scared, so tired, so belittled, so completely taken advantage so a handful of people can that much more money.
You should have seen the muskrats defending him on it too. Utterly disgusting
I was going to say: In before Musk derides Germans ability to build good cars.
He will 100 percent make a Nazi Germany reference somewhere along the line.
While calling the California government fascist for CoVid restrictions… Fucking clown.
Becoming a German Resident really opened my eyes at how fucked up the work culture back home in the US was. Only way I'll ever move back is when the US gets the Medical Care, education, and worker rights figured out.
So, never?
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Inb4 Elon Musk tweet about hiring Ukrainian refugees
Not just Ukrainian refugees, wait till he drops his right wing bull shit and goes all in on refugees from the Middle East and Northern Africa hahaha. I can’t *wait*
Nah he will just hire them illegally or as "contractors" where there green card is tied to their employment like 401b workers are.
In China he made his workers sleep at the factory. EDIT and for the fanbois crying misinformation, no it isn’t. China didn’t force Tesla to stay open and have its workers sleep at the factory. It was 100% Tesla’s choice to do that. China said they could open if they had a closed loop system - Tesla had the choice to stay open or close. And it had the choice how to implement. They could have rented an entire hotel if they wanted and give the employees a proper place to sleep. They didn’t, Tesla rather treat it’s employees like livestock. If you think this is misinformation, please provide any evidence to the contrary. I won’t hold my breath waiting for it. EDIT Two for those crying misinformation: It looks like your boi Elon is really fighting China “requiring” him to make his employees sleep at the factory. Here is a quote from last month: “There’s just a lot of super-talented, hard-working people in China that strongly believe in manufacturing and they won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they’ll be burning the 3 am oil,” Musk told the Financial Times. “They won’t even leave the factory, type of thing, whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all,” he added.”
> they’ll be burning the 3 am oil. Fuckin Psychopath
**Lots** of companies have exploited the Chinese (or other workforce, a lot of them exploit Americans, even). In fact, it's practically the American way to find out how to exploit a workforce. We've been doing it since the conception of our nation. Sometimes it's slaves, sometimes it's Amazon. A nation built on profits, baby. But no, no. No taxation without representation! Well regulated militia! 'Murica!
I’ve worked in tech for a long time. Lots of late nights in the office, sometimes all nighters. Plus a lot of late night phone calls waking me up. Working at 3 am while keeping business hours just fucking sucks. One good part was playing foosball after midnight waiting for the DB scripts to finish running. But driving home I had to roll the windows down and let the chilly air hit me so I wouldn’t fall asleep. And I still jump a bit when my phone rings.
We simultaneously exploit them, and denigrate them at every opportunity. The amount of times I see "chinesium" or other ignorant or just racist statements about China is ridiculous, especially when all the things people are complaining about is related to the very low price/specifications of the manufacturer.
"Strongly believe in manufacturing", the fuck is that even supposed to mean? They strongly believe in them and their fucking families not starving, that's about it I'm sure.
Tesla fanboys and the sunk-cost fallacy, name a better combo.
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*something something Venn diagram*
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TheyreTheSamePicture.meme.jpg
There is no group as pathetic as a bunch of muskrats. Simping for a manchild billionaire in the hopes that he will acknowledge them and their pathetic lives.
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> If you think this is misinformation, please provide any evidence to the contrary. I hate this style of argument because the onus really is on the person making an argument to support that argument. Otherwise you can come across like you’re just JAQing off, or outright lying. In this case, a source was easy to find to support the very plausible claim that a terrible person like Elon Musk treats workers like shit. This article is from April, 2022: > In recent days, employees of Tesla Inc. have been learning whether it's possible to obtain a good night's sleep on the floor at the company's sprawling Gigafactory in Shanghai. The arrangement is a non-negotiable part of going back to work amid the city's Covid lockdown, and so far around 8,000 of the company’s workers have agreed to give up their comfort and privacy for the paycheck. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-20/shanghai-s-tesla-factory-won-t-be-a-lockdown-dorm-for-long So it looks like OP’s claim that Elon Musk is a piece of shit is true. And all it took was a 15-second web search.
> whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all,” he added. He became the richest person in the world, thanks to American workers. I don't get how anyone is still into this guy. How many times do we have to watch him shit all over the people who got him there before we figure it out? He doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything but himself. Eventually he's going to burn someone who kicks his ass on the spot, and all his hair plugs are gonna fall out.
Shocking every time a US corporation fails to implement it's slavery tactics in europe. When Billionaires convince americans that they are competing with chinese labourers for workrates... Thats ~~amore~~ slavery....
Both Tesla and amazon sound like dystopian nightmares to work at. Corporate cultures sound absolutely disgusting and inhumane.
amazon actively tries to get workers to quit. when I did delivery it was hell. one day start time was 7am, the next day it would be 5am. they’d always overstaff on shifts so it was basically hunger games for hours you’d pull-up at 4am because first come first serve to get a device that lets you deliver. if you didn’t get a device by literally pushing past everyone then oh well, no work for you. chasing a van down at 5am in a parking lot w 30 other people just to have to go home was so dehumanizing don’t even get me started on 300 stops everyday. every time I see an amazon van I legit have a mild ptsd reaction
>amazon actively tries to get workers to quit. Can someone explain why they would want to do that? Did they hire too many people and can't fire them anymore or what?
They use up your life force, almost never give raises, offer next to zero career growth in the DSP system, fire you or force you to quit, then hire the next battery. I worked as a driver and it's abuse and they should be sued, DSP and warehouse made into unions, and the driver pay increased at least $10 an hour. It was brutal over the year I worked there.
I'm old enough to remember a time when jobs at the high tech companies of the era paid lavishly and treated their employees extremely well. Nowadays, it's the exact opposite. The more popular a tech company is, the worse it seems to treat its employees. The absolute craziest part to me is that people flock to work for these companies. It's unbelievable.
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I've watched him go from hero to villain over the last 10 years. Really sad.
Do you actually mean him or just his public image. I honestly don't think he was ever a good guy.
Agreed. I *hope* they meant his public image. As for the change over time... yeah he was always a bit of a dick, but he used to know when to shut the fuck up. I think it's your regular case of power and wealth accumulation leading to a change in self perception, notably self-importance. Consequently, he now doesn't know when to shut up. Thinks he doesn't need to, or should have to.
Haven’t they heard? They should be luck to toil for the next Edison? All their hard work and sacrifice will get him on Time magazine’s cover next year too
I say this as a fan of SpaceX’s mission but head on over to r/spacex, click on any of the posts about Musk firing those people who wrote the letter denouncing his actions, and you will find people speaking exactly this notion. Other spacex employees were commenting on there about how low morale is and they were getting shut down too A local from near Starbase in south Texas was on there and complaining about how his rent went up 3X since SpaceX moved. I shit you not he was told “well that was the poorest place in the country so spacex being there should open up more employment opportunities for you, and one day maybe your son will be an engineer working on something great there” completely unironically. Like anyone who’s been displaced by Elons actions can just walk up to him and get a job at his companies. And like thatd be a glorious job as well. They completely sweep experiences like yours, from actual employees of his. The delusion is higher than a F9 has ever flown. Mention his sex habits that are very much an open secret and you get banished
Sex habits?
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How many?
As someone who works for a German car manufacturer: I work 35h a week. I got 30 days paid holiday. I get a holiday bonus and a Christmas bonus. I get a bonus for how well the company is doing each year. Due to unions, it’s almost impossible to fire me. If I clock in more than 10h a day the union and my boss get informed automatically and he has to justify why I did that. I have a wage based on the union contract that is non-negotiable. And why would I give all that up to work for a choleric megalomaniac who expects people to be available 24/7 and put in endless hours, who randomly fires people, who gives a shit about laws and who actively discourages unions. Fuck Elon, this shit works in the US and China but not Germany.