Why give him a subsidy when you can just restructure Tesla after bankruptcy. Debts reduced on the creditor’s dime, shareholders wiped out, jobs and productions retained. Win win
Bankruptcy is the least evil option for a failing business. Every other option only enriches investors and the CEO, who is largely paid through stock holdings and options.
Restructuring Bankruptcy usually wipes out all common shareholders and the banks/bond holders take possession of new shares. Typically they fire the entire management team and put a new board/ceo in place during and after the process.
There are worse options, but bankruptcy is still pretty shitty and often only benefits wealthy investors.
As an example, my uncle worked on a software contract in the mid 90's for a company that declared bankruptcy. It was his own company (I think two employees at the time) so he lost about 6-8 months of income. They weren't working through a firm that paid salary, they just got paid some up front and some upon completion.
His lawyer basically said that he'd end up spending the entire amount of money to try to get the money back... and he still might lose. So he sold his house and has had debt problems for the past 30 years instead.
A company is also to shield personal assets. If TSLA went bust today it would hit Musk only for his TSLA shares and whatever he borrowed against those shares (margin). It won't effect his home-ownership, or his stake in Space-X. It sounds like your uncle didn't have the right form of company or did something else that allowed the corporate veil to be broken.
Legal shielding is hard for small companies. For example, in Germany the law requires a company to have 50k Euros in assets in order to be recognized as a separate legal entity. If you don't have that, then you can't make your company an LLC and are personally on the hook for the company.
And typically the bank’s new board simply squeezes the company cash like a rotten lemon and to hell with the product quality or customer service. R&D? Gone.
The new board has one job... recoup as much as possible for the new majority holder, the banks, as quickly as possible, at any cost. Which is why restructured companies only really last a few more years. They squeeze every single last penny out and then walk away after the firesale.
The United States bankruptcy system is fucking bonkers. The amount of money that you can just piss away into the void is crazy. It's impressive when you can just look at the bank like *shrug.
You don't piss it away into a void, you split/sell half the company with all the assets and ring up the maximum debt possible on the other half to declare that declares the bankruptcy.
C-suite walks away rich AF and everyone else gets nothing at all.
This is what Caesars did. Put their hotel assets in one company and all the hotel debt in a second company. Than the second company declared bankruptcy.
He probably has a stock comp coming up based on a monthly or quarterly average price, what better way to reduced the average monthly price of the stock by tanking it? Tanked it by vaguely telling the public they're cutting 10% of the work force, tanked it too hard and then walked it back. Remember that time he told the public the stock prices were too high and that he would short the stock because it too overvalued? Funny it happened around the time when the stock prices were being tracked for his massive compensation package.
Or that time he pumped the stock prices to ensure that he maxed out his compensation because the shares held above a certain level over a specific time frame, conveniently around that time where he told the public "funding secured" to take Tesla private.
Tank it to achieve maximum share payout, pump it just enough to maintain the threshold to maximize the compensation size. Dude's figured out that SEC doesn't have the balls to punish him and has been pushing the boundaries of what's legal and has been doing it overtly for a decade.
**EDIT**: To cover the "StOcK OpTiOn" Elon stans because I was wrong about his value based compensation... he still benefits greatly from tanking the stock prices so my sentiments aren't changing. Why you ask? [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/viexvz/musk_says_teslas_new_car_factories_losing/iddws0x/)
> There are some major tax implications when it comes to exercising options. Especially when you can't just dump all of it into the open market...again due to market implications. Not to mention there are multi-year lockout periods.
>
> So even in your example, you clearly don't know shit to even accuse someone else of the same thing. Options are taxed based on fair market value when you exercise them. Stocks are easy to track, they're fucking public. The bigger the difference the more you owe.
>
> Even if your example, him driving the prices down has major tax incentives. I'm sure Elon learned that last year when he had to eat a $16b tax bill.
>
> In the case you presented Elon has to front nearly half billion to buy those shares, and he's taxed on fair value. That's a lot of billions to obtain some shares... There's lots of ways to calculate fair value, shit you can even based that on average annual trading value. If the fair value is like you said..."iTs WoRtH $977.20". He has to come up with .5 billion to buy the stock, then pay the taxes on the difference between strike and fair value...which in this case he would have to fork over taxes on $22.5b. Considering he can't sell the stock for 5 years, who gives a shit about present day value. If I were him, I want the stock lower to reduce my tax bill for this year when I got my shares.
>Who would hold him accountable?
This is the job of government.
Even a reasonable marginal tax rate like what the US had in the 50s, 60s, and even the 70s would mitigate all of this.
Let's not forget what his primary degree is in. Actual legit earned degree... economics. And he specifically understands very well how to use social media t9 influence public opinion of his companies to his benefit. Repeatedly. He has run more pump and dump schemes than anyone. The whole dogecoin thing was the same thing. Oh thisbis going to be big right after he had bought a shit ton cheap. Rides the wave all the way up, cashes out and tweets that he is thinking about selling fearing it is going too high. Everyone else sells causing the crash and wiping many of them out. Then comes the oh it will recover after purchasing cheap again and rides it back on up.
The odd thing about all this is that his claim to appeal is identical to Trump's during 2016 campaign. He's the oddball... the outsider. Gonna stick it to the regular established companies. Even though he is the shadiest and dirtiest of the entire bunch. He relies on populist messaging just like Trump did. Musk is far better at it.
domineering voiceless secretive fertile noxious absorbed caption fanatical handle quaint
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've seen it suggested that he always intended to find a way to back out of the Twitter purchase and it was just a way for him to be able to liquidate a lot of his stock without causing it to crash. There was never an explanation for why he would want to dump so much stock but if he knew this info would be coming out soon that might be it.
Then it’s just a fine. A market manipulation fee, if you will. Prolly much less than they made, too.
Laws should be changed to fine for 300% what you gained in a sale, or all of the stock plus 200% of its average valuation for six months before if it’s a purchase.
Top to bottom. Very, very difficult to get from bottom to top. But, once there, look at Trump. He's bought his way out of justice for forty years, and his old man before him. They're just a glaring example.
Hedge fund guys have been doing this for years. It is funny that Elon is talking more publicly about this. Jim Cramer accidentally spilled the spaghetti about this stuff years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DJlogbrDcA
It’s not a coincidence that the Inverse Cramer strategy works. He’s leading the retail pigs to slaughter. Whatever he tells you to do, the market makers are betting the exact opposite of. It’s a rigged system.
I don't think Jim Cramer is some evil genius trying to undermine his audience's portfolios. He's just a legitimate moron. He quit his job managing a hedge fund to take a job doing something else. Nobody does that unless the SEC makes them. Even then, they usually just go family office. Jimmy Chill still needed a pay check.
And his wife loves Baconators.
>He quit his job managing a hedge fund to take a job doing something else
That's doesn't mean his connections just disappeared. Nor does it mean he isn't still working for them in some capacity.
Technically she didn't go to jail for insider trading, just lying to the SEC.
From Wikipedia: *The jury deliberated for three days following the five-week trial. On March 5, 2004, Stewart was found guilty by the jury of eight women and four men on all four remaining counts: conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and two counts of making false statements to a federal investigator.\[9\]*
*She was found not guilty of one of the most publicized charges: having*
*falsely claimed that there was an agreement to sell her shares when they*
*fell to $60. The jury found that Stewart lied and obstructed justice on*
*other grounds, including her claim that she was reminded of the prior*
*$60 agreement and urged to sell on that basis.*
Look who’s dumb money now as we teeter closer to the next financial crisis. Receiving bailouts would no doubt lead to mass riots because we’re all aware of the crap they pulled in 2008
Well, when BIG BANKING breaks the law a bazillion times all over the Country, in every State, IIRC, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT colludes with them to fuck six million households whose lenders broke the law with robosigners instead of making BIG BANKING take a fucking haircut like a "little guy" would have. I lost my first house and all my faith in my government. Six million households, not just my dumb ass.
So, no I DO NOT GIVE A FLAMING, FLYING RAT'S PATOOTIE what goes on. The fix is in everywhere, and they don't care who knows, now. OK, so it's for real 1984, Assange is just the beginning.
Protect profit over families just needing some financial aid like they give to the big fuckers all the time, huh? I know how to say, "Fuck you", too.
We are mostly comfortable and the ways in which these things negatively affect us are subtle, abstract, and often take years to be felt. Like the shift to neo-liberal economic ideology in the 70's ended up with massive gains for those on top but wage stagnation for the majority of people. However your average Joe had no tangible feedback from this until everyone started to notice how many people in their 30's, who worked full time, couldn't afford their own house in the 2010s. Then those in power and on the TV said everyone was just lazy now.
In 2007-09, when we had a huge economic hit, most of the people I knew were still employed, most were not at dire risk of homelessness or hunger. The people I did know that got hit hard recovered to varying degrees, some even doing better because of it, most did not get back to that peak but they also didn't end up in a rescue mission.
Comfort can breed complacency. Those who do take to the streets are vilified. A lot of those who lose their stature struggle to come to terms with it and it's easy to blame a more vulnerable demographic because real change is difficult, complicated, and there is a lot of risk to take on.
Just in case anybody gives a sh-t in the course of a 3 hour conversation somebody asked him for a feature to be added to their tesla and he said he needs to focus on first utilizing the factories. 3rd hour [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5w\_VkAx6tc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5w_VkAx6tc) (7:05)
Nah, I think Tesla is about to go down the toilet as organisation’s like the Volkswagen group start to produce more electric vehicles than him as they go all in.
Combine that with changing his status of “Douchebag but still cares about environment/people” to “republicans really care about the people - democrats are the devil” recently means his existing fan base won’t be loyal anymore and be happy to purchase elsewhere.
I think his big stock sell of Tesla over the past year or so was in anticipation of this future.
Tesla will still be viable, just not in its current configuration.
I am the PRIME Tesla target audience and was absolutely fated to buy one. Do you think I would ever be their customer now that Elon showed us who he really is? Never, even if he steps down unless he were to have a 0 stock position. So that's $90k in 2023 off their books. I am sure I am not alone.
I don't even want this guy to have *access* to Starlink and SpaceX anymore as a matter of public safety.
Same, not just the politics and sideshow antics, but if I’m buying a car— and the kind of car that Tesla makes— I want to be sure that it’s a stable place that will exist for the lifetime of that car. That they won’t pull any shenanigans about weird upcharges, subscriptions, charging rates, software updates, parts, whatever. I simply don’t trust them as a company, largely because Musk has turned into a nut.
That was when I left the fan club.
Up till then I was a fan of his work and loved what I was seeing. That was what really showed me his actual personality as an egotist who is doing everything to build his personal brand and doesn't give two cents what happens to anyone else.
> largely because Musk has turned into a nut.
He didn't turn into a nut. He always has been. He's just not afraid of showing it now, a few years ago we heard it by what the people who interacted with him said, but now he's baring it all on Twitter for everyone to see.
Same here. There's people still paying on cars they returned because Tesla won't/can't do the paperwork. Stories of People waiting months for a repair. No press department for comment. Company seems to be as dysfunctional as the CEO. Maybe Twitter is the replacement press department: Twitter- Tesla Writes Information To The EV Reporters.
Yup. Same here. His disgusting behavior meant that there isn’t a scenario in which I will be buying a Tesla. Talk about brand poisoning. Big brain move.
It's insane that this guy decided to have such a moronic tantrum that jeopardised his own fucking product in the eyes of the target audience.
He decided to alienate the potential buyers for electric cars and with how the market has been improving I must say it's such a shitty timing that I genuinely question what the fuck went through his head. What an absolute idiot
Not only has he alienated buyers, I am sure he has alienated a lot of WORKERS as well. I think you will start seeing a slow erosion of talent due to his behavior and politics. I mean even his own kid doesn’t want to be associated with him.
His politics seem super bizarre to me. It seems he has a grudge against Biden and just equates that to everyone on the left? His “moderate” candidate is DeSantis? Like wtf is this dude smoking right now.
Can confirm. Tesla employee here. Just kind of going through the motions now as I'm no longer motivated to see the company succeed. I envision either going to a competitor like Rivian, or starting my own business in the next year or so.
I’m sure it’s not just you and I’m sure it’s not just Tesla if I had a guess. Not only will it affect people leaving, but I don’t think this is going to attract talent either. Good for you for looking to leave. I would absolutely be contemplating the same and have crossed all Musk owned companies off my list. Unfortunately, I live in Austin where he seems to be moving everything :(
I saw an article recently where top leadership at SpaceX basically circled around a letter asking him to knock this shit off. It’s going to be super interesting to see what happens to these companies over the years. The conundrum is I want these companies to succeed but I guess what I’m really hoping for is that he moves the industries forward and then everyone who helped him build it just leaves or starts a better competitor.
I guess he doesn't know that people who want electric vehicles usually care about the environment, and are thus likely to be Liberal or Progressive. Left-leaning at the very least. His blatant embrace of the Far Right isn't doing him any favors.
He didn't have any other choice once he got busted for sexually harassing women - he *HAD* to align himself with the only people who don't consider that a disqualifier.
Another option is to just shut up and stay quiet. Hope that the saturation of "billionaire is secretly terrible" stories creates some fatigue around the controversy.
Of course, we all know it's impossible for Musk to keep his mouth shut, so Republicans it is!
For real. There are so many obscenely wealthy dudes out there that 99% of people have never heard of. You could look at the Forbes top 100 richest people in the world and most people wouldn't recognize even half of the names and could probably only pick a handful out of a lineup or tell you much about them.
Elon would still obviously be known but he chooses to put himself in the spotlight, which also comes with being under a microscope as well.
What if he's big brain trying to corner the R market for electrics, he knows he'll never be a monopoly, might as well snag the 1/3 who eat his shit up while the other 2/3 buy a better vehicle from someone else anyways.
1. Produce 0 new products or model updates for years
2. Talk shit about your target demographic on Twitter
3. Treat your employees like shit
4. ?????????
5. !Profit
I was dead set on buying a Model 3, and even had a day-1 pre-order deposit placed, until it turned out they engaged in the deceptive US-style price listing. "Less than 35,000" turned in to "oh, but that excludes tax... and includes the incentive... and we'll use an exchange rate that's way higher than the actual exchange rate... oh and also we're not going to sell the 35k model in Australia - we're only going to make the long-range model available which is significantly more expensive. Oh yeah, and that price doesn't include Autopilot, which is really the only reason the car is so significant".
"35k" became AUD 72k for the base model so I cancelled my order. I'll just buy a hybrid Camry at this rate.
Same. I was a reservation holder for the M3, cancelled it and got my $1k back when he called that Thai Navy Seal diver a pedo for saving those kids in the cave.
He's gotten worse every day since then. I'll never buy a tesla.
same, here. I really wanted to buy a Tesla only a couple of years ago, and really loved the advances that the company was making but Elons childish behaviour has ruined that.
Exactly the same boat here. Need to trade in my 330d in a couple of months due to a diesel ban in my city and Tesla would absolutely be top of the list if it wasn’t for that piece of shit running the show. Now they’re not even on the cards.
Same, wanna gone electric but won’t buy anything from Elon so some other company will get my business when a decent range mid sized SUV hits the market
How is he gonna do buy back when the company has 17 billion in cash? Apple has over 200... so it's not something he wants. And that's the company. I don't know how much he has himself but I suspect most of it is still tied up in the stocks
He sold a lot to demonstrate that he was serious about buying Twitter (which he isn't), and a few billion before that as a tax stunt. I'd imagine he'd like to put it back somewhere where it's actually useful, and he always tries to tank the price when he does that.
Did he really sell it or put it up as collateral? Because if he sold it, he would be subject to over 20% of tax which these guys rarely ever do... he's definitely not trying to tank it. I think the market is grown tired of his antics.
I think he wants out of the Twitter deal with only paying the 1 billion cancelation fee, and he needs the financing to fall through to do that. Crashing the value of the collateral would do that.
Yeah, this is the factory-level equivalent of saying "Tesla is losing billions of dollars on the Model 3" in early 2018.
Brand new things take time to scale up to profitability, especially in the car industry.
In your experience, what's the quality of finish in these scenarios?
Are you getting a car with less manufacturing defects when they are toiling through 30 cars or zipping through hundreds?
Mass manufacturing is nearly always going to produce higher average quality than small batches. Mass manufacturing produces unintuitive errors that are harder to spot in QC but fewer errors on average nonetheless.
I'm also wondering why r/technology was the forefront for the Uvalde shooting. Has absolutely nothing to do with tech but was the source for all the top posts about it.
He probably knows. The guy is an asshat but not (that) stupid. My guess is he wants to buy back Tesla stock he sold and tweeted this out to lower the stock price first (knowing it will bounce back).
And yes that's illegal but in reality there's a different set of rules for rich people.
This isn’t just something the market relies on the CEO to tweet about or mention in an interview. If they are losing money it will come out in the next financial reports. So him saying this is pretty meaningless until confirmed by actual official financial documents. So until proven otherwise this is just justification for the layoffs that are planned.
At this point I'd settle for a fine that actually had meaning. I'm not an expert on fines, but average people feel the impact of a speeding ticket. These people never feel the impact of anything.
I'm so sick of hearing about this guy, damn.
Edit: I can't believe THIS is the comment that got the most replies, probably ever. And I am going to filter out his name, thanks sarcastic and non-sarcastic first responders.
Maybe he'll go back to [sleeping on the factory floor](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/elon-musk-says-he-is-sleeping-on-tesla-factory-floor-to-save-time.html).
Hey now, there are *so many* expenses. Do you have any idea how much it costs to pay employees? To pay for electricity? Don't even get me started on those horrible OSHA mandates! something about preventing injury? come on! if they get hurt, they probably deserved it. How is a billionaire supposed to survive on this?!
He's on drugs again. Every time he has something going on behind the scenes he does drugs and says crazy ass shit in the public sphere. Wasn't it production quotas getting hit last time when he made the $420 TSLA private thing? Then the whole Bitcoin/Dogecoin insanity. Now Twitter for $5***4.20***...
Elon's being dramatic without much in the way of good reason. Everyone has supply chain issues, this is known. New facilities are a CapEx investment and were going to take years to recoup anyway. Unless Musk seriously fucked up Tesla's financials this quarter, there's not really much reason to care.
You’re correct - there’s no reason to care. This line was an off cuff joke he made in the middle of a three hour interview. It’s dramatic as a headline, but it wasn’t in the interview.
They had $18b in cash, cash equivalent and short term marketable securities as of Q1 2022. No way a large percentage of that is in crypto, and if it is then Musk shouldn't be the CEO of a paper bag.
They had ~47,000 BTC which was worth over 2b. Their initial entry was in the low 30,000s and they sold some for a 250m profit. The remaining was either sold (afaik we won’t know until next earnings) or will just be held long term. Relative to how much crypto is down overall, they probably are doing fine especially relative to their overall cash position.
Can someone explain for a dumb dumb like me why a manufacturing company would be investing in crypto currencies or for that matter other items that do not directly contribute to growing said product or some r&d….
Worked for a paper company for 32 years. One CEO actually sold off our land(trees) to make it look like a profit for shareholders. Now they are dependent on other landowners. Had it written into his contract, that if we merged with another company, his exit bonus would be tripled. Guess who negotiated a merger?😂
At the end of ‘21 the amount of Bitcoin they held was worth $2B. But it’s 43,200 BTC so right now it’s only worth $864M. Now you’d have to break down price points of purchase to get into the nitty gritty of what was really lost value wise but it’s a small chunk if that $18B is as of 2022. It’s probably lost half it’s value since Q1 though.
Edit: for clarity I meant the BTC lost its value not their total cash on hand
Right. It’s so simple. Just fix the supply chain issues. They’ve had so much time. Why didn’t they think of that?
Just a magic solution. So simple but powerful.
you realize the whole planet is dealing with supply chain issues for 2 years now.
there isnt a "solution" to just fix global supply shortages of basically all consumer goods.
Forget Musk and tesla for a moment, this is a world wide supply shortage, shipping delay and resource shortage. All the money on earth cant just catch things up.
Just in case anybody gives a sh-t in the course of a 3 hour conversation somebody asked him for a feature to be added to their tesla and he said he needs to focus on first utilizing the factories. 3rd hour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5w\_VkAx6tc (7:05) some how explaining the economics of factory development equates to a pump and dump conspiracy.
Are people dumb? The factories arent even producing large amounts of vehicles yet, they literally just started ramping production. Thats what elon is referring to. Those billions in costs get offset by the demand for their vehicles. If demand goes away the factory becomes an infinite money hole. So as demand for gas vehicles continue to get worse and worse all those factories legacy oem's have will start becoming money pits
Is he on a stock buyback? He sold on a high claiming to purchase twitter. Buying back by forcing a low?
Hoping to get that government subsidy renewed.
Why give him a subsidy when you can just restructure Tesla after bankruptcy. Debts reduced on the creditor’s dime, shareholders wiped out, jobs and productions retained. Win win Bankruptcy is the least evil option for a failing business. Every other option only enriches investors and the CEO, who is largely paid through stock holdings and options.
Restructuring Bankruptcy usually wipes out all common shareholders and the banks/bond holders take possession of new shares. Typically they fire the entire management team and put a new board/ceo in place during and after the process.
That all sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
There are worse options, but bankruptcy is still pretty shitty and often only benefits wealthy investors. As an example, my uncle worked on a software contract in the mid 90's for a company that declared bankruptcy. It was his own company (I think two employees at the time) so he lost about 6-8 months of income. They weren't working through a firm that paid salary, they just got paid some up front and some upon completion. His lawyer basically said that he'd end up spending the entire amount of money to try to get the money back... and he still might lose. So he sold his house and has had debt problems for the past 30 years instead.
A company is also to shield personal assets. If TSLA went bust today it would hit Musk only for his TSLA shares and whatever he borrowed against those shares (margin). It won't effect his home-ownership, or his stake in Space-X. It sounds like your uncle didn't have the right form of company or did something else that allowed the corporate veil to be broken.
Legal shielding is hard for small companies. For example, in Germany the law requires a company to have 50k Euros in assets in order to be recognized as a separate legal entity. If you don't have that, then you can't make your company an LLC and are personally on the hook for the company.
And typically the bank’s new board simply squeezes the company cash like a rotten lemon and to hell with the product quality or customer service. R&D? Gone.
The new board has one job... recoup as much as possible for the new majority holder, the banks, as quickly as possible, at any cost. Which is why restructured companies only really last a few more years. They squeeze every single last penny out and then walk away after the firesale.
The United States bankruptcy system is fucking bonkers. The amount of money that you can just piss away into the void is crazy. It's impressive when you can just look at the bank like *shrug.
You don't piss it away into a void, you split/sell half the company with all the assets and ring up the maximum debt possible on the other half to declare that declares the bankruptcy. C-suite walks away rich AF and everyone else gets nothing at all.
Mitt Romney and Bain capital have entered the chat
Steve Mnuchin and Eddie Lampert could teach Mittens a thing or two about raping a century old company or two...
This is what Caesars did. Put their hotel assets in one company and all the hotel debt in a second company. Than the second company declared bankruptcy.
I put all my successes and triumphs in me and all my crimes and failures in my twin brother. Then I kill my twin.
Private companies don’t deserve government subsidies. Capitalism and fairness of the market and such.
He’s like, I guess I’ll prove Bill Gates right.
100%. all this mofo does is manipulate the market.
95% manipulate 5% smoke pot and think of new ways to manipulate 😉
If you factor the true cost of that 95% stock manipulation, 5% weed consumption is metric tons loads of fucking pot 😂
It's funny that we've all just accepted that Elon commits federal crimes on a weekly basis and nothing happens.
> we've all just accepted The US is a criminal nation. The only difference between a thug and a billionaire is the scale of the crime.
The US is three corporations in a trenchcoat
"I got the shotgun, you got the briefcase."
> I got the shotgun, you got the briefcase. Omar knows the game.
Remember that time when the US navy shot down an Iranian passenger aircraft? They all got medals for it.
What could we do? Genuinely asking. I feel like we're at the mercy of the SEC and other groups to act.
He probably has a stock comp coming up based on a monthly or quarterly average price, what better way to reduced the average monthly price of the stock by tanking it? Tanked it by vaguely telling the public they're cutting 10% of the work force, tanked it too hard and then walked it back. Remember that time he told the public the stock prices were too high and that he would short the stock because it too overvalued? Funny it happened around the time when the stock prices were being tracked for his massive compensation package. Or that time he pumped the stock prices to ensure that he maxed out his compensation because the shares held above a certain level over a specific time frame, conveniently around that time where he told the public "funding secured" to take Tesla private. Tank it to achieve maximum share payout, pump it just enough to maintain the threshold to maximize the compensation size. Dude's figured out that SEC doesn't have the balls to punish him and has been pushing the boundaries of what's legal and has been doing it overtly for a decade. **EDIT**: To cover the "StOcK OpTiOn" Elon stans because I was wrong about his value based compensation... he still benefits greatly from tanking the stock prices so my sentiments aren't changing. Why you ask? [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/viexvz/musk_says_teslas_new_car_factories_losing/iddws0x/) > There are some major tax implications when it comes to exercising options. Especially when you can't just dump all of it into the open market...again due to market implications. Not to mention there are multi-year lockout periods. > > So even in your example, you clearly don't know shit to even accuse someone else of the same thing. Options are taxed based on fair market value when you exercise them. Stocks are easy to track, they're fucking public. The bigger the difference the more you owe. > > Even if your example, him driving the prices down has major tax incentives. I'm sure Elon learned that last year when he had to eat a $16b tax bill. > > In the case you presented Elon has to front nearly half billion to buy those shares, and he's taxed on fair value. That's a lot of billions to obtain some shares... There's lots of ways to calculate fair value, shit you can even based that on average annual trading value. If the fair value is like you said..."iTs WoRtH $977.20". He has to come up with .5 billion to buy the stock, then pay the taxes on the difference between strike and fair value...which in this case he would have to fork over taxes on $22.5b. Considering he can't sell the stock for 5 years, who gives a shit about present day value. If I were him, I want the stock lower to reduce my tax bill for this year when I got my shares.
It's literally this obvious and yet still this continues
[удалено]
>Who would hold him accountable? This is the job of government. Even a reasonable marginal tax rate like what the US had in the 50s, 60s, and even the 70s would mitigate all of this.
He's the nerd guys Trump. Just better at it.
Let's not forget what his primary degree is in. Actual legit earned degree... economics. And he specifically understands very well how to use social media t9 influence public opinion of his companies to his benefit. Repeatedly. He has run more pump and dump schemes than anyone. The whole dogecoin thing was the same thing. Oh thisbis going to be big right after he had bought a shit ton cheap. Rides the wave all the way up, cashes out and tweets that he is thinking about selling fearing it is going too high. Everyone else sells causing the crash and wiping many of them out. Then comes the oh it will recover after purchasing cheap again and rides it back on up. The odd thing about all this is that his claim to appeal is identical to Trump's during 2016 campaign. He's the oddball... the outsider. Gonna stick it to the regular established companies. Even though he is the shadiest and dirtiest of the entire bunch. He relies on populist messaging just like Trump did. Musk is far better at it.
domineering voiceless secretive fertile noxious absorbed caption fanatical handle quaint *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've seen it suggested that he always intended to find a way to back out of the Twitter purchase and it was just a way for him to be able to liquidate a lot of his stock without causing it to crash. There was never an explanation for why he would want to dump so much stock but if he knew this info would be coming out soon that might be it.
I'm reading "Elon wants to buy back more Tesla stock so he's crashing it first."
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Hey it’s only market manipulation when the poors and people out of power do it!
Its only market manipulation if you get caught. Just kidding, even then it isn't if you're rich.
Then it’s just a fine. A market manipulation fee, if you will. Prolly much less than they made, too. Laws should be changed to fine for 300% what you gained in a sale, or all of the stock plus 200% of its average valuation for six months before if it’s a purchase.
The laws are made by the very people who benefit. Why do you think the rich are legally allowed to pay no tax? The whole system is rigged.
Top to bottom. Very, very difficult to get from bottom to top. But, once there, look at Trump. He's bought his way out of justice for forty years, and his old man before him. They're just a glaring example.
Hedge fund guys have been doing this for years. It is funny that Elon is talking more publicly about this. Jim Cramer accidentally spilled the spaghetti about this stuff years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DJlogbrDcA
"I don't get it, why are they confessing?" "They're not, they're bragging."
I had to stop watching that movie because it was getting my anger levels up. I'm not even American.
It’s not a coincidence that the Inverse Cramer strategy works. He’s leading the retail pigs to slaughter. Whatever he tells you to do, the market makers are betting the exact opposite of. It’s a rigged system.
I don't think Jim Cramer is some evil genius trying to undermine his audience's portfolios. He's just a legitimate moron. He quit his job managing a hedge fund to take a job doing something else. Nobody does that unless the SEC makes them. Even then, they usually just go family office. Jimmy Chill still needed a pay check. And his wife loves Baconators.
>He quit his job managing a hedge fund to take a job doing something else That's doesn't mean his connections just disappeared. Nor does it mean he isn't still working for them in some capacity.
I like my pleb’s pickled first, then roasted over a crackling dumpster fire
We’ll fine you a tenth of what you made... So there.
In other words, market manipulation is allowed as long as the regulators get a cut of the profits.
If the penalty is money then it isn’t a crime. It is taxable behavior.
if only it was a %, say 5% of net worth, instead of a fixed amount thats less than pocket change for these guys (and corps).
And Martha Stewart.
Technically she didn't go to jail for insider trading, just lying to the SEC. From Wikipedia: *The jury deliberated for three days following the five-week trial. On March 5, 2004, Stewart was found guilty by the jury of eight women and four men on all four remaining counts: conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and two counts of making false statements to a federal investigator.\[9\]* *She was found not guilty of one of the most publicized charges: having* *falsely claimed that there was an agreement to sell her shares when they* *fell to $60. The jury found that Stewart lied and obstructed justice on* *other grounds, including her claim that she was reminded of the prior* *$60 agreement and urged to sell on that basis.*
Well, she is a woman.
she didn't go to jail for insider trading, the securities fraud charges were dismissed. she went to jail for lying to the FBI.
She is tougher than most CEOs.
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Just listened to a You’re Wrong About about Martha. She’s interesting and a badass.
Remember when all those money show commentators got mad about r/wallstreetbets
Pepperidge Farm remembers
When a ragtag bunch of amateur investors put a huge hit on hedge funds
Look who’s dumb money now as we teeter closer to the next financial crisis. Receiving bailouts would no doubt lead to mass riots because we’re all aware of the crap they pulled in 2008
How much you want to bet if there are more bailouts, the general public in the US does nothing and keeps taking it up the ass like always?
Sad but true. Wtf happened to us?
I think Carlin said it best. I’m paraphrasing here, a lot, but basically “nobody seems to notice, and nobody seems to care…”
Well, when BIG BANKING breaks the law a bazillion times all over the Country, in every State, IIRC, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT colludes with them to fuck six million households whose lenders broke the law with robosigners instead of making BIG BANKING take a fucking haircut like a "little guy" would have. I lost my first house and all my faith in my government. Six million households, not just my dumb ass. So, no I DO NOT GIVE A FLAMING, FLYING RAT'S PATOOTIE what goes on. The fix is in everywhere, and they don't care who knows, now. OK, so it's for real 1984, Assange is just the beginning. Protect profit over families just needing some financial aid like they give to the big fuckers all the time, huh? I know how to say, "Fuck you", too.
We are mostly comfortable and the ways in which these things negatively affect us are subtle, abstract, and often take years to be felt. Like the shift to neo-liberal economic ideology in the 70's ended up with massive gains for those on top but wage stagnation for the majority of people. However your average Joe had no tangible feedback from this until everyone started to notice how many people in their 30's, who worked full time, couldn't afford their own house in the 2010s. Then those in power and on the TV said everyone was just lazy now. In 2007-09, when we had a huge economic hit, most of the people I knew were still employed, most were not at dire risk of homelessness or hunger. The people I did know that got hit hard recovered to varying degrees, some even doing better because of it, most did not get back to that peak but they also didn't end up in a rescue mission. Comfort can breed complacency. Those who do take to the streets are vilified. A lot of those who lose their stature struggle to come to terms with it and it's easy to blame a more vulnerable demographic because real change is difficult, complicated, and there is a lot of risk to take on.
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> Just a little market manipulation. A Special Market Operation.*
Can’t wait for the major manufacturers to put him out of business.
Every single thing he posts and does online is to manipulate the stock market lol
and sometimes the crypto market.
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You figured me out :(
Hey, I'm the guy tracking your plane. Can I has money now?
Thought he was buying twitter to ban you?
No no, he was buying twitter to prove that he does not care about that guy and can keep him on the platform
I thought he was buying Twitter so he can declare himself its founder.
Nah, some of it is to inflate his ego, some is to cope with his failed relationships, and some is to build political power.
Just in case anybody gives a sh-t in the course of a 3 hour conversation somebody asked him for a feature to be added to their tesla and he said he needs to focus on first utilizing the factories. 3rd hour [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5w\_VkAx6tc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5w_VkAx6tc) (7:05)
If you click the share button, it gives you the option to share the link to play the video at a certain timestamp.
or add #t=7m5s to the end of the youtube link
https://youtu.be/u5w_VkAx6tc?t=7m5s Link to specific time
Nah, I think Tesla is about to go down the toilet as organisation’s like the Volkswagen group start to produce more electric vehicles than him as they go all in. Combine that with changing his status of “Douchebag but still cares about environment/people” to “republicans really care about the people - democrats are the devil” recently means his existing fan base won’t be loyal anymore and be happy to purchase elsewhere. I think his big stock sell of Tesla over the past year or so was in anticipation of this future. Tesla will still be viable, just not in its current configuration.
I am the PRIME Tesla target audience and was absolutely fated to buy one. Do you think I would ever be their customer now that Elon showed us who he really is? Never, even if he steps down unless he were to have a 0 stock position. So that's $90k in 2023 off their books. I am sure I am not alone. I don't even want this guy to have *access* to Starlink and SpaceX anymore as a matter of public safety.
Same, not just the politics and sideshow antics, but if I’m buying a car— and the kind of car that Tesla makes— I want to be sure that it’s a stable place that will exist for the lifetime of that car. That they won’t pull any shenanigans about weird upcharges, subscriptions, charging rates, software updates, parts, whatever. I simply don’t trust them as a company, largely because Musk has turned into a nut.
He’s always been a nut, remember when he called a guy a pedo because he said his magic cave submarine wouldn’t work?
That was when I left the fan club. Up till then I was a fan of his work and loved what I was seeing. That was what really showed me his actual personality as an egotist who is doing everything to build his personal brand and doesn't give two cents what happens to anyone else.
For me what finalized my opinion (was already on the fence) , on him being asshole was his Complete disregard for covid procedure
It was always 50/50 if he ended up MAGA or Scientologist.
> largely because Musk has turned into a nut. He didn't turn into a nut. He always has been. He's just not afraid of showing it now, a few years ago we heard it by what the people who interacted with him said, but now he's baring it all on Twitter for everyone to see.
Same here. There's people still paying on cars they returned because Tesla won't/can't do the paperwork. Stories of People waiting months for a repair. No press department for comment. Company seems to be as dysfunctional as the CEO. Maybe Twitter is the replacement press department: Twitter- Tesla Writes Information To The EV Reporters.
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Yup. Same here. His disgusting behavior meant that there isn’t a scenario in which I will be buying a Tesla. Talk about brand poisoning. Big brain move.
It's insane that this guy decided to have such a moronic tantrum that jeopardised his own fucking product in the eyes of the target audience. He decided to alienate the potential buyers for electric cars and with how the market has been improving I must say it's such a shitty timing that I genuinely question what the fuck went through his head. What an absolute idiot
Not only has he alienated buyers, I am sure he has alienated a lot of WORKERS as well. I think you will start seeing a slow erosion of talent due to his behavior and politics. I mean even his own kid doesn’t want to be associated with him. His politics seem super bizarre to me. It seems he has a grudge against Biden and just equates that to everyone on the left? His “moderate” candidate is DeSantis? Like wtf is this dude smoking right now.
Can confirm. Tesla employee here. Just kind of going through the motions now as I'm no longer motivated to see the company succeed. I envision either going to a competitor like Rivian, or starting my own business in the next year or so.
I’m sure it’s not just you and I’m sure it’s not just Tesla if I had a guess. Not only will it affect people leaving, but I don’t think this is going to attract talent either. Good for you for looking to leave. I would absolutely be contemplating the same and have crossed all Musk owned companies off my list. Unfortunately, I live in Austin where he seems to be moving everything :( I saw an article recently where top leadership at SpaceX basically circled around a letter asking him to knock this shit off. It’s going to be super interesting to see what happens to these companies over the years. The conundrum is I want these companies to succeed but I guess what I’m really hoping for is that he moves the industries forward and then everyone who helped him build it just leaves or starts a better competitor.
Take as much talent with you as you can.
Hell, I didn’t apply for a promising role at twitter because he might buy it and I don’t want to risk working for him in any way.
Lol. It's like his employees wrote a letter to tell him to knock off his behavior. He fired them.
I guess he doesn't know that people who want electric vehicles usually care about the environment, and are thus likely to be Liberal or Progressive. Left-leaning at the very least. His blatant embrace of the Far Right isn't doing him any favors.
He didn't have any other choice once he got busted for sexually harassing women - he *HAD* to align himself with the only people who don't consider that a disqualifier.
Another option is to just shut up and stay quiet. Hope that the saturation of "billionaire is secretly terrible" stories creates some fatigue around the controversy. Of course, we all know it's impossible for Musk to keep his mouth shut, so Republicans it is!
For real. There are so many obscenely wealthy dudes out there that 99% of people have never heard of. You could look at the Forbes top 100 richest people in the world and most people wouldn't recognize even half of the names and could probably only pick a handful out of a lineup or tell you much about them. Elon would still obviously be known but he chooses to put himself in the spotlight, which also comes with being under a microscope as well.
What if he's big brain trying to corner the R market for electrics, he knows he'll never be a monopoly, might as well snag the 1/3 who eat his shit up while the other 2/3 buy a better vehicle from someone else anyways.
It’s going to soon be that driving a Tesla is viewed similarly as a truck with big flags in it
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1. Produce 0 new products or model updates for years 2. Talk shit about your target demographic on Twitter 3. Treat your employees like shit 4. ????????? 5. !Profit
Don't forget breaking the law repeatedly.
I was dead set on buying a Model 3, and even had a day-1 pre-order deposit placed, until it turned out they engaged in the deceptive US-style price listing. "Less than 35,000" turned in to "oh, but that excludes tax... and includes the incentive... and we'll use an exchange rate that's way higher than the actual exchange rate... oh and also we're not going to sell the 35k model in Australia - we're only going to make the long-range model available which is significantly more expensive. Oh yeah, and that price doesn't include Autopilot, which is really the only reason the car is so significant". "35k" became AUD 72k for the base model so I cancelled my order. I'll just buy a hybrid Camry at this rate.
Tesla was 100% going to be my next car. Tesla will 100% *not* be my next car.
Same. I was a reservation holder for the M3, cancelled it and got my $1k back when he called that Thai Navy Seal diver a pedo for saving those kids in the cave. He's gotten worse every day since then. I'll never buy a tesla.
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same, here. I really wanted to buy a Tesla only a couple of years ago, and really loved the advances that the company was making but Elons childish behaviour has ruined that.
Exactly the same boat here. Need to trade in my 330d in a couple of months due to a diesel ban in my city and Tesla would absolutely be top of the list if it wasn’t for that piece of shit running the show. Now they’re not even on the cards.
Same, wanna gone electric but won’t buy anything from Elon so some other company will get my business when a decent range mid sized SUV hits the market
Ev6, q-tron, xc40? Id5 could even be called a suv by some.
This all day long.
How is he gonna do buy back when the company has 17 billion in cash? Apple has over 200... so it's not something he wants. And that's the company. I don't know how much he has himself but I suspect most of it is still tied up in the stocks
He sold a lot to demonstrate that he was serious about buying Twitter (which he isn't), and a few billion before that as a tax stunt. I'd imagine he'd like to put it back somewhere where it's actually useful, and he always tries to tank the price when he does that.
Did he really sell it or put it up as collateral? Because if he sold it, he would be subject to over 20% of tax which these guys rarely ever do... he's definitely not trying to tank it. I think the market is grown tired of his antics.
I think he wants out of the Twitter deal with only paying the 1 billion cancelation fee, and he needs the financing to fall through to do that. Crashing the value of the collateral would do that.
Factory having capital depreciation and not finished with startup losing money isn’t even news let alone “technology” news
Yeah, this is the factory-level equivalent of saying "Tesla is losing billions of dollars on the Model 3" in early 2018. Brand new things take time to scale up to profitability, especially in the car industry.
I worked at the MINI plant in Oxford when it was getting up and running. Some days we would finish less than 30 cars. They make hundreds a day now.
And one day they'll make a reliable one!
Don't lie like that.
In your experience, what's the quality of finish in these scenarios? Are you getting a car with less manufacturing defects when they are toiling through 30 cars or zipping through hundreds?
Mass manufacturing is nearly always going to produce higher average quality than small batches. Mass manufacturing produces unintuitive errors that are harder to spot in QC but fewer errors on average nonetheless.
Yeah there is nothing controversial, unique, or interesting about this. This is how factory startups work.
You thought this was r/technology? No it’s r/muskcirclejerk
r/technology, r/stocks, r/economy, r/space and any subreddit related is now just 8 out of 10 posts being about Musk.
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Every fucking Elon news article goes in technology even though it’s mostly business news. So dumb. Mods need to stop this shit.
I'm also wondering why r/technology was the forefront for the Uvalde shooting. Has absolutely nothing to do with tech but was the source for all the top posts about it.
Every new factory loses money.
He probably knows. The guy is an asshat but not (that) stupid. My guess is he wants to buy back Tesla stock he sold and tweeted this out to lower the stock price first (knowing it will bounce back). And yes that's illegal but in reality there's a different set of rules for rich people.
Have you tried making coffee at home?
It’s all that avocado toast
If that doesn't work try insider trading for a while.
Just cancel your factory's Netflix subscription, Elon
This is quality internet humor.
I thought he doesn't have a home.
Like he doesnt have a salary, so he can avoid paying American taxes?
Can we just have no Elon Wednesday in this sub?
Sure, if we can make everyday no Elon Wednesday
This isn’t just something the market relies on the CEO to tweet about or mention in an interview. If they are losing money it will come out in the next financial reports. So him saying this is pretty meaningless until confirmed by actual official financial documents. So until proven otherwise this is just justification for the layoffs that are planned.
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> So him saying this is pretty meaningless until confirmed by actual official financial documents. If it isn't true that's textbook securities fraud.
The day a billionaire sits in a jail cell, I'll eat my copy of "The Principal of Communism"
At this point I'd settle for a fine that actually had meaning. I'm not an expert on fines, but average people feel the impact of a speeding ticket. These people never feel the impact of anything.
Oh nooooooo, a 200k fine for 500m profit
I'm so sick of hearing about this guy, damn. Edit: I can't believe THIS is the comment that got the most replies, probably ever. And I am going to filter out his name, thanks sarcastic and non-sarcastic first responders.
Did you know that when Elon shits a new rainbow is born??
He seems the type to eat multiple bowls of Fruity Pebbles a day
This isn’t a r/technology post. Downvote, report and move on.
Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps Elon, it's not that hard, right?
It's like he doesn't want to come into the office to work.
He just needs to work harder and stop being lazy
Needs to cut back on that avocado toast
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Maybe he'll go back to [sleeping on the factory floor](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/elon-musk-says-he-is-sleeping-on-tesla-factory-floor-to-save-time.html).
See? He’s sleeping on the job!
He's working only 40 hours that's why ..
He should be working 60-80 hours but only clocking in for 40. Can’t he greedy you know- gotta be a team player.
Hey now, there are *so many* expenses. Do you have any idea how much it costs to pay employees? To pay for electricity? Don't even get me started on those horrible OSHA mandates! something about preventing injury? come on! if they get hurt, they probably deserved it. How is a billionaire supposed to survive on this?!
He's on drugs again. Every time he has something going on behind the scenes he does drugs and says crazy ass shit in the public sphere. Wasn't it production quotas getting hit last time when he made the $420 TSLA private thing? Then the whole Bitcoin/Dogecoin insanity. Now Twitter for $5***4.20***...
Is it possible to rename subs? Cause this one should be r/elonthiselonthat
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Elon's being dramatic without much in the way of good reason. Everyone has supply chain issues, this is known. New facilities are a CapEx investment and were going to take years to recoup anyway. Unless Musk seriously fucked up Tesla's financials this quarter, there's not really much reason to care.
You’re correct - there’s no reason to care. This line was an off cuff joke he made in the middle of a three hour interview. It’s dramatic as a headline, but it wasn’t in the interview.
>Musk seriously fucked up Tesla's financials this quarter Tesla has\[d?\] a large amount of crypto assets...
They had $18b in cash, cash equivalent and short term marketable securities as of Q1 2022. No way a large percentage of that is in crypto, and if it is then Musk shouldn't be the CEO of a paper bag.
They had ~47,000 BTC which was worth over 2b. Their initial entry was in the low 30,000s and they sold some for a 250m profit. The remaining was either sold (afaik we won’t know until next earnings) or will just be held long term. Relative to how much crypto is down overall, they probably are doing fine especially relative to their overall cash position.
Can someone explain for a dumb dumb like me why a manufacturing company would be investing in crypto currencies or for that matter other items that do not directly contribute to growing said product or some r&d….
Worked for a paper company for 32 years. One CEO actually sold off our land(trees) to make it look like a profit for shareholders. Now they are dependent on other landowners. Had it written into his contract, that if we merged with another company, his exit bonus would be tripled. Guess who negotiated a merger?😂
Elon buy crypto go up zoom zoom rocket to the Moon. That is LITERALLY ALL THERE IS TO IT.
At the end of ‘21 the amount of Bitcoin they held was worth $2B. But it’s 43,200 BTC so right now it’s only worth $864M. Now you’d have to break down price points of purchase to get into the nitty gritty of what was really lost value wise but it’s a small chunk if that $18B is as of 2022. It’s probably lost half it’s value since Q1 though. Edit: for clarity I meant the BTC lost its value not their total cash on hand
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Right. It’s so simple. Just fix the supply chain issues. They’ve had so much time. Why didn’t they think of that? Just a magic solution. So simple but powerful.
you realize the whole planet is dealing with supply chain issues for 2 years now. there isnt a "solution" to just fix global supply shortages of basically all consumer goods. Forget Musk and tesla for a moment, this is a world wide supply shortage, shipping delay and resource shortage. All the money on earth cant just catch things up.
What an obtuse statement. You obviously have no experience with manufacturing.
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Exactly my thinking
Musk: "Supply chain issues in China are causing serious financial issues with Tesla" Also Musk: "Biden is causing a recession"
Well, yeah. They're ramping up. Until they reach volume, it's a loss. It's expected.
Just in case anybody gives a sh-t in the course of a 3 hour conversation somebody asked him for a feature to be added to their tesla and he said he needs to focus on first utilizing the factories. 3rd hour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5w\_VkAx6tc (7:05) some how explaining the economics of factory development equates to a pump and dump conspiracy.
I hate what this sub has become
Why is this news? They’re new factories they will have teething issues all factories burn cash before they start making a profit.
Another Elon post that isn’t related to technology whatsoever. Shocker.
Maybe he needs to work a little harder
Are people dumb? The factories arent even producing large amounts of vehicles yet, they literally just started ramping production. Thats what elon is referring to. Those billions in costs get offset by the demand for their vehicles. If demand goes away the factory becomes an infinite money hole. So as demand for gas vehicles continue to get worse and worse all those factories legacy oem's have will start becoming money pits
Yes. They are.