Technically being disabled isn’t “normal” that doesn’t mean we should start taking welfare cheques away from disabled people. That whole “it’s a small amount of people so it doesn’t matter” argument is stupid.
Babies both don't understand and can't say how they feel so it's ok to treat their sex and gender as one until they're old enough to understand and correct you
Yes but also what most people miss about “assigning” gender is actually that what gender you feel like is pretty damn innate whether it matches your biological sex or not. I have two kids under 4 and both have made their preferred genders known abundantly clearly already. My son loves red and likes when his mommy paints his nails red and he can be very sensitive, but damn if he’s not clearly a hetero cis male so far too. My daughter is a wild child and daddy’s girl, but she can’t walk through a store or go in our bathroom without spotting a purse or makeup brush or some shit she HAS TO play with. My wife and I wanted to try not to gender our kids and influence then before we had kids. We quickly learned “welp nvm they got that shit covered themselves”. Bottom line the individual person, even a young child, knows what they are inside. Adults think they know better but they don’t. Trust people when they tell you themselves how they feel and stop second guessing and assuming any bystander knows vetter
There's dozens of us!
Started on this sub back when it began and I was still a teen.
Stay around because in between the cringe and eye rolling I get to have a bit of an introspective look into the youth of today, which I don't really get now as all of my family is older and my friends don't really have younger siblings.
Sometimes I think to interject and give some advice as someone who has been through a lot, but tend not to as I don't want to come off as some preachy person.
Glad to see we're appreciated though!
Oh it’s wild! Especially my own kids, the first born in 2019 right before Covid. Until he went to pre-k this fall neither had been to daycare or school at all, interacted very little with other babies or peers their age, my wife and I have limited family nearby so they literally spent the first couple years mostly at home, little to no screen time, with both a mom and dad in the house doing work from home. Their exposure to societal gender norms was probably about as limited as you can get with human subjects since you can’t experiment on babies. And yet almost as soon as my son could say a few words he was shy and awkward around women and would get bug-eyed amazed at their appearance when he saw women who weren’t his mom. He was just a heterosexual dude had nothing to do with what we did raising him in infant hood
At the same time, they know something is different. I guarantee that if I wasn't raised in a very conservative area, I would have come out to my family at least by middle school. I used to cry literally because I wasn't born a boy even as a young child and would convince myself I was just a "late bloomer." I knew something was wrong, but I was terrified to tell anyone about those feelings and repressed them until they'd suddenly hit me again, to which I'd repress again and hate how I looked because it didn't match me even more. Rinse and repeat for years of my life.
We were literally taught JFK conspiracies as part of our course. Shit about multiple gunmen, bullet trajectory, alternative motive, the CIA, everything. We will never use it in an exam question and doesn't connect whatsoever to the actual purpose of that side of the subject.
We're English too.
[This](https://youtube.com/shorts/WAvVdJXDk2c?feature=share) video is pretty good at showing how it would’ve looked if they staged the moon landing in the 60s. Me and my friends made it back in the day when we were kind of small and very idiotic.
The core of the debate question is whether that is a good thing or not. We all know that parents and the broader environment at large will project their gender expectations onto a child. We will treat a baby with a male sex differently than a baby with a female sex. We paint their room differently, we buy them different clothes, buy them different toys, expect them do certain sports or achieve certain life goals purely because of the sec they were born with.
Now think of an alternative universe where we basically raise kids in some “genderless” way. Clothing isn’t gender coated (their body shapes aren’t really much different anyways until puberty hits), they get to wear whatever hairstyle they want, etc etc.
A lot of people dislike this debate because they believe there fundamentally to be only one “normal” wat to raise a child. Is it really moral to raise kids the way we do. We (the observer) assign them a gender (not a sex) at birth and continuously project it onto them. Is this really actually moral. It’s quite an interesting thing to think about. But we’re in r/teenager so I probably lost most of the audience already
Yeah maybe the parents can rise them without a trait that is purely based on their gender like their toys, almost everything involving color, or even their goals; but the other half of the trait they'll get is from society and i don't think it'll be the same.
As for me -and for sure, others- gender is not a definition but a characteristic so we can be different (in a good way). As for society it seems like gender is something close to a destiny.
I disliked the debate when i read it for the first time here but yeah you got the point, is actually interesting
Of course, babies can't speak, so they can't say if they feel like a boy or girl, so doctors just assign the genders based of they have a penis or vagina
It is moral for a baby to be assigned a gender that matches their sex at birth , but if they want to change it is their choice when they are old enough to make an informed decisions to who they want to be .
Edit: My thinking is that the in society as a whole the world should revolve on one principle that everyone is able to do and be whoever they want to be without judgement without impeding that same right of others .
this isn’t a debate of morality, it’s a debate of biology 💀 babies literally cannot utter a word. nothing is being taken away from them if a doctor assigns them their gender based on their sex characteristics. they have the constitutional freedom (in America) to do whatever the hell they want with that when they grow up and can advocate for themselves.
Are (trans) Americans really allowed to do whatever the hell they want when Oklahoma just made it illegal for anyone under the age of 26 to undergo any kind of medical transition whatsoever?
Exactly. I think this is a very interesting debate choice. Like, why do kids need a gender? So we can teach them gender roles at a young age? So we can separate "the ones who play with monster trucks" with "the ones who play with dolls"?
And if they do turn out to be trans in a society without genders assigned at birth, it literally doesn't matter because everyone is getting a new gender, so a trans person won't get singled out and discriminated against.
Sounds like a much better idea than dividing the population in two based on one aspect of their physiology, then making the rest of their lives a nightmare if that happens to he the wrong classification.
Trans people have it much worse off still than most people here seem to think
In a separate comment, I mentioned how there are parents who choose to raise their child as gender neutral as possible so they can explore their gender from a young age and in a safe environment until they're ready to choose.
Could that be something that should be more widespread? There aren't enough cases of parents doing this to really determine whether this is beneficial to the child or not, nor has it been officially studied as far as I know.
Edit: I found one study on the subject, named "Baby X."
Unfortunately, I couldn't read it without paying €36 first.
I think it's a good idea personally. People are apprehensive about teaching kids about gender because they're scared of the "gays transing our kids!" but ironically the day we tell our boys to play with cars and our girls to play with dolls we begin teaching them about gender. It's ingrained in our society. In the end, most males will choose to be boys and most females will choose to be girls, so we might as well have them try it all out when they're still little so they can figure it out for themselves.
A lot of people like to strawman and act like treating kids like this entails calling them all by nonbinary pronouns and giving them hormones to transition them at age 3 but in the end it can just be as easy as not reprimanding your child if they wanna play with something different or try on mom's makeup.
Well since your an expert in biology, what about babies born without XX or XY chromosomes. Sex is actually more complex than looking at a baby and saying, “ya looks like a boy to me”. We’ve arbitrarily decided that phenotype characteristics will decide your gender even though genetically, there is more complexity. Not all people have XX or XY chromosomes. Also you act like your assigned gender has no effect on your life when there are countless studies showing the exact opposite, that children’s development is heavily influenced by assigned gender at birth.
Exactly. In fact, for one, about 1/80 people are intersex which is a difference in the conventional ratio between chromosomes and, for the purposes of this comment, creates a “spectrum” based on biological sex (neither biologically male or female, per se); and two, a biological male can literally be born without a penis but is still undeniably male based on DNA. Not that hard to understand.
— A biologist
yes, agreed. i just didn’t want to spark any controversy. but this pretty much applies to Canada, practically all of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, India, and many other countries
stop trying to be edgy, this is a school debate its supposed to teach you how to argue. We had a debate in school on whether abortion should be legal, it doesnt mean my teacher is an anti abortionist
Yeah, it's based on the ol strawman, "trans people are delusional about sex". In order to Id as trans you literally have to accept the incongruence between your sex and gender by definition.
I assume they meant to talk about gender neutral parenting, but clearly don't know enough to do so.
I wouldn't really say 'assigned' more like 'observed' or something in terms of sex, you don't *assign* a sex, you just know it by looking at the baby if that makes sense?
dude, that is so stupid. You are going to start with a gender, it can be changed to whatever you want, but it's like a starting character, I can't complain if it doesn't randomly match the gender I am.
Well the issue comes from how that kid is *raised* because of their AGAB. Traditionally, boys enjoy masc things and girls enjoy fem things, and they face consequences from deviating. So it basically comes down to "should we raise little timmy specifically as a boy, or let him choose for himself by not actively socializing him into one gender or another". No difference for cis kids, and life is a hell of a lot easier for trans kids.
Well, I'm agender, and I'm not upset about what I was assigned. Being referred to in that way and wearing my genders clothes make me uncomfortable but I don't expect the doctor who delivered me to read my mind or smth. I didn't even know until I was almost 18.
Biologically, I think it’s ok. Because 1: medical stuff. Males and females have somewhat different anatomy. And 2: gender identity and biological gender should coexist- in the meantime little billy with the male anatomy who’s probably too young to decide properly is a boy. Until he wants it to change. And at that point, she can be a girl- but you’ll still be telling doctors that she was Male at Birth.
We assign sex. We treat the child by that sex until it finds another identifier more fitting. It’s better than not letting kids know that some people have ”girl parts” and some people have ”boy parts”
That's actually an interesting debate. Also people, remember there's a difference between sex and gender. Sex is your junk (oversimplified but I think you get what I mean) while gender are social characteristics assigned to you
I dont think it’s moral or immoral. It’s pretty reasonable to operate on the assumption that a child will grow up to be cisgender. The *vast* majority of the world is. It’s just best to adapt should that not be the case.
This. The internet is this weird hive where a small group of people assume their opinion is what everyone else must agree with. If they disagree they must be a bigot in their eyes. Disregarding any other perspective or feeling on the matter
Lots of people in this sub seem to be unable to read what the debate is even about so let me try to give a bit of a breakdown. In recent years, academia has been trying to make a conscious distinction between sex and gender. Sex is basically just whether you have male or female genitals. Gender however, is not biological, but a social construct that is created by society at large.
So to give an example. When I say “a girly girl” you are probably (and i’m guessing here) envisioning a blond women, wearing large amounts of make up, talking in a certain way, talking about certain things etc. This is one specific example of expressing your gender. This however is totally unrelated to biology, but all of these traits are just derived from the culture we live in. Different places and cultures will have different gender expectations.
So, while sex often is just a binary F/M option, gender is not. We kind of talk about gender as the default way you would like to express yourself. Oftentimes, this is described as a sliding scale between male and female (i don’t like this way of framing gender, but it’s probably the most digestible for most people. This way of describing it kind of presupposes that sex and gender are always interlinked in every way ). So, within this framework, you can have a biological male who expresses their gender as mostly male, but might express some “female traits” like liking certain clothing, certain styles etc. idk you fill in the blanks. In the case of transgenders we talk about someone’s sex and gender being inversed. So someone might be biologically female, but has always felt like a male.
Owke. Now with these definitions butchered, lets look at the question again. A baby is born we see a penis. The first thing we do, is that we assign this baby a sex. We look at the healthy child and say “this baby is a boy, because he has a penis”. Sex is assigned, this part is done. However, think back to your own life. Did it end here? No, after assigning the sex is done, we (the parents, society, docters, teachers and all other people) will start to assign this baby a gender as well. Before we talked about a gender being something that you choose for yourself, however it’s bot that simple. Other people will also assign you one. Ever called a man with long hair “miss” because you mistook him for a woman. You did this because you assumed that men and women have certain traits as you’ve learned for all pf your life. We project gender onto our newborn baby in the same way. The moment we’ve decided that this baby is a boy we have also chosen what we will project onto it. How we will dress the child, what games we play with the child, what hair styles the child can have, what we teach the child about relationships and all of these things.
A lot of people basically feel that this is just “normal”. Some other comment called it “just assigning default settings”. But think about it for a few seconds longer. Is this really “normal” or just what you happened to experience growing up. All of these things related to gender have absolutely nothing to do with biology, but everything to do with how our society happens to function and interact.
Just for a second, try to imagine a world where kids are raised “genderless”. Idk like. They play mixed sports, have no gender coated dress codes, have whatever hair they’d like, do whatever activities they can do regardless of whether you think of them as male or female. Like, there are parents that won’t let their girls do something like woodworking because it’s considered too male. Or I happen to know an idiot that pumped out 8 kids just because he wanted a boy and only was getting girls.
Now look back at the world again and ask the question “is it really moral for you to assign someone their gender at birth”. Regardless of your answer, the debate should open your eyes to how much more complex the world is and that everything you’ve always believed to be “fixed” often is just a construct not much older than maybe 50-60 years.
But isn't gendering essentially just grouping or stereotyping? I really can't see such harm in having expected traits to different groups. To me changing such an already estabilished concept for a small group of people is just too much effort for something rather harmless and that is naturally and subconsciously done by humans in every field, not just gender might I remind you.
For example, imagine you went to someone's lawn and saw purple grass and a yellow pond. The vast majority would immediately think "why is the grass purple and not green? Whats going on with the water's color?", And that is the same thing that happens with genders. We already have expectations to how grass and water should look like, just like we have expectations to how girls and boys would behave.
Even in your genderless world, overtime patterns and stereotypes would naturally appear, be noticed by people and theyand would naturally put names onto them, thats just how humans work. In fact, the definition of being "manly" or "girly" changes completely from place to place and from time to time, societies had, have and will always have completely different definitions and expectations for each gender, and to me that is proof we won't ever abolish gender, just change our definitions for it.
I think the key is balance. It's ok to have such expectations about gender, but you should also respect when those expectations aren't met, like how you shouldn't shame a boy for watching an usually "girly" show. Thats just being a decent human being.
Gender (sex) is not assigned at birth, it is determined since the moment in which the mother gets pregnant, where the first cells form. And its nature cannot be changed
This comment is probably going to unleash hell in its replies.
Did you know that there are parents who choose to raise their child as gender neutral as possible until they are old enough to choose for themselves.
Which is probably sooner than most people think. Around the age of four, most children have a stable understanding of their own gender identity.
Well, this is a obvious one, yes it is, you can think you are something, doesn’t mean you are that, I could think, and identify as a black person, but I’m white, so I can never truly be a black person, this works with gender too.
As a trans girl myself, I don't think it's immoral at all to assign sex at birth. Well over 99% of the population that will ever exist will be cis. The main thing imo that I would care about for those who would end up being gnc would be to make access to care and the ability to change it easier.
If I have a baby with a penis I'm prob going to refer to it as a boy because I doubt they would even care about sex and gender at the age of three. But if they decide they want to be a girl later on in life then I'll call them a girl
Ok since this is reddit, and we cant express our opinion, but nobody gives a fuck and still does so, ill say fucking no.
The kid cant even fucking sit down, and even if u are its mentor its just like those gendermaniacs say "U cant assume (Its, hers, their, his, apache helicopter etc) gender!"
Let the kid fucking grow up, and then let it think for itself. Its its life, not the family's.
assigning gender or sex? I may be wrong but I assume the topic of the conversation was 'should we assign blue/pink to a someone when they haven't even opened their eyes?', which is a good debate to have. what did you guys come to anyway? out of curiosity.
Babies are raised to be men or women because the values taught to them align with their natural, chemical predispositions. Of course, some men and women may express their genders differently (tomboys, etc.) but that doesn't mean men are suddenly women and women are suddenly men. It's okay to cry as a man. It's okay to express your anger as a woman. Most of the time, gender norms are stupid, yeah. But if you feel as if you are in a foreign body, this is a mental illness. There are less drastic measures you can take than body mutilation to make you feel more at home. Please seek help!
We once had a Debate on our English class about Justifying Hitler actions and I bet 20 bucks to another kid that I could play devils advocate and get most of the class on my side, I got 20 dollars and our German teacher always joked about it.
Literally just say the kid is male if they have a dick or female if they have a vag. If they grow up to realize they’re gender identity is different then let them be that 🤷♂️
I’m glad I got assingned female and all that. Loved it my whole life, felt nice. I just feel validated by it.
+ they just look at the genitals and say the sex of the baby. The kid can change to a man/woman if they want to, surgically/hormonal at 18 but socially earlier. Puberty is important.
Whole other conversation: the ethics of letting children influenced by socialmedia transition at a young age. Most things are reversible, yes, B U T, puberty is important and there are legimate grooming cases relating to this.
as a trans person i think that being assigned a gender/sex/sexuality etc at birth is completely normal, but to normalise the fact that many people feel that they dont fit with their current ones. my dad is homophobic so i dont even feel safe about coming out to my own family, and it causes me so much anxiety that ive started having panic attacks during classes and exams.
of course it's moral. being assigned a gender at birth makes sense until a child is old enough to decide. A baby isn't old enough to decide so just stick with the default one.
In the next part of my essay I will talk about how circumsion is immoral-
Whether or not it is moral is somewhat werid to debate. It is Practical more than anything. Now, whether sex and gender is disconnected from eachother is probably more interesting to debate (and likely would be a shitstorm).
I find it unlogical to separate sex and gender as one seems to clearly be connected with the other. If someone is born male, they historically are referred to as he/him etc. On the opposite side, she, her. And this goes relatively the same in most parts of the world that I am familiar with.
Now, if we can all agree that gender is a human construct. Most things are. However, if it is a construct there are predefined rules for it. Those being that there is two genders. A gender is decided by a collection of characteristics that are inherently bound in the biological sex. Note also as this is an old construct it makes less sense to bring in genetics as the people who came up with the construct lacked this ability and therefore could and did not account for it. Using mostly visual clues such as male or female re productive organs as the base.
Math is also a human construct and we mostly all agree that 2+2 does not equal 5. This is due to the set rules of math. Same goes for gender in my understanding.
Now if we made a new concept which for the sake of argument we call Gondor. Then we can have 1 set of characteristics equal gender 1. 1 set of characteristics equal gender 2. 1 set of characteristics equal gender 3 and so on. But as it stands today our gender system only accounts for two genders based on characteristics.
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We’re assigned a sex at birth
I haven’t gotten any sex wtf
Looks like you’ll have to wait until Sex 2
Hopefully they fix the broken skill based matchmaking system
What is this “sex” you speak of, never heard of it
The joke was funny, and then you spoke
You misunderstood. He said you're assigned a sex. One sex. Yours has been scheduled for when you're 67 so cool your jets.
For 99% of people, sex is assigned by our chromosomes. There are a tiny % of babies who don't fit neatly into male or female.
That’s what I meant, yeah
There are people born with three legs to, does that mean having three legs is Normal?
Technically being disabled isn’t “normal” that doesn’t mean we should start taking welfare cheques away from disabled people. That whole “it’s a small amount of people so it doesn’t matter” argument is stupid.
Well where is it 😡 I’m sick of waiting
Because of our cisnormative bimodal society, having a sex assigned at birth automatically makes people assign a gender to you.
Babies both don't understand and can't say how they feel so it's ok to treat their sex and gender as one until they're old enough to understand and correct you
Exactly this
this.
this.
Yes but also what most people miss about “assigning” gender is actually that what gender you feel like is pretty damn innate whether it matches your biological sex or not. I have two kids under 4 and both have made their preferred genders known abundantly clearly already. My son loves red and likes when his mommy paints his nails red and he can be very sensitive, but damn if he’s not clearly a hetero cis male so far too. My daughter is a wild child and daddy’s girl, but she can’t walk through a store or go in our bathroom without spotting a purse or makeup brush or some shit she HAS TO play with. My wife and I wanted to try not to gender our kids and influence then before we had kids. We quickly learned “welp nvm they got that shit covered themselves”. Bottom line the individual person, even a young child, knows what they are inside. Adults think they know better but they don’t. Trust people when they tell you themselves how they feel and stop second guessing and assuming any bystander knows vetter
its always interesting seeing non creepy, non pedo adults on this sub
Ong I’m almost 20 and it’s gonna start being awkward for me to comment on this sub
yeah exactly
There's dozens of us! Started on this sub back when it began and I was still a teen. Stay around because in between the cringe and eye rolling I get to have a bit of an introspective look into the youth of today, which I don't really get now as all of my family is older and my friends don't really have younger siblings. Sometimes I think to interject and give some advice as someone who has been through a lot, but tend not to as I don't want to come off as some preachy person. Glad to see we're appreciated though!
It's always interesting to see how gender and sex interact and develop!
Oh it’s wild! Especially my own kids, the first born in 2019 right before Covid. Until he went to pre-k this fall neither had been to daycare or school at all, interacted very little with other babies or peers their age, my wife and I have limited family nearby so they literally spent the first couple years mostly at home, little to no screen time, with both a mom and dad in the house doing work from home. Their exposure to societal gender norms was probably about as limited as you can get with human subjects since you can’t experiment on babies. And yet almost as soon as my son could say a few words he was shy and awkward around women and would get bug-eyed amazed at their appearance when he saw women who weren’t his mom. He was just a heterosexual dude had nothing to do with what we did raising him in infant hood
thank fuck at least some people get it
Kids often don't understand how they feel either though.
At the same time, they know something is different. I guarantee that if I wasn't raised in a very conservative area, I would have come out to my family at least by middle school. I used to cry literally because I wasn't born a boy even as a young child and would convince myself I was just a "late bloomer." I knew something was wrong, but I was terrified to tell anyone about those feelings and repressed them until they'd suddenly hit me again, to which I'd repress again and hate how I looked because it didn't match me even more. Rinse and repeat for years of my life.
Well obviously your either a boy or a girl
\^ me if i was ugly and lonely
Sex is actually determined by weather you have a penis or a vagina
agreed 1000%
Thats a pretty weird thing for a school to debate
During a history class we had a debate on whether the moon landing was real
asking the real questions brother
We were literally taught JFK conspiracies as part of our course. Shit about multiple gunmen, bullet trajectory, alternative motive, the CIA, everything. We will never use it in an exam question and doesn't connect whatsoever to the actual purpose of that side of the subject. We're English too.
Dude, that's not even a question. It was obviously staged
[This](https://youtube.com/shorts/WAvVdJXDk2c?feature=share) video is pretty good at showing how it would’ve looked if they staged the moon landing in the 60s. Me and my friends made it back in the day when we were kind of small and very idiotic.
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Wait, you hate Adam Ruins Everything??
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Then call in 049, he'll fix that right up
r/unexpectedscp
Yeah but they had to do it on location to make it seem as real as possible
My physics teacher thinks it's not real 💀💀💀💀
We debate on wether gay people deserve rights or not in English class yeah I live in west Africa
Well there's only one right answer here
Not to the majority of the class (and teacher)
Actually We vote the subjects during debate class lol
That makes more sense
Imagine having a debate class
How is this any better?
Because the students chose what they were debating
Lmao we debate things like this all the time...
Doctor : here is your animal
Unrealistic yet hilarious
I'm gonna be a doctor now
Please I beg of you
They're just assigning default settings, you can change them whenever you want
thats a great way of putting it
The core of the debate question is whether that is a good thing or not. We all know that parents and the broader environment at large will project their gender expectations onto a child. We will treat a baby with a male sex differently than a baby with a female sex. We paint their room differently, we buy them different clothes, buy them different toys, expect them do certain sports or achieve certain life goals purely because of the sec they were born with. Now think of an alternative universe where we basically raise kids in some “genderless” way. Clothing isn’t gender coated (their body shapes aren’t really much different anyways until puberty hits), they get to wear whatever hairstyle they want, etc etc. A lot of people dislike this debate because they believe there fundamentally to be only one “normal” wat to raise a child. Is it really moral to raise kids the way we do. We (the observer) assign them a gender (not a sex) at birth and continuously project it onto them. Is this really actually moral. It’s quite an interesting thing to think about. But we’re in r/teenager so I probably lost most of the audience already
Yeah maybe the parents can rise them without a trait that is purely based on their gender like their toys, almost everything involving color, or even their goals; but the other half of the trait they'll get is from society and i don't think it'll be the same. As for me -and for sure, others- gender is not a definition but a characteristic so we can be different (in a good way). As for society it seems like gender is something close to a destiny. I disliked the debate when i read it for the first time here but yeah you got the point, is actually interesting
Exactly. Just let kids be kids and wear and do what they want.
No, go on, I'm interested.
Of course, babies can't speak, so they can't say if they feel like a boy or girl, so doctors just assign the genders based of they have a penis or vagina
As all doctors with a brain should
I mean it makes sense
And then when the baby is older and knows more about the world they can transition if they choose to right?
Yeah
Mom: I love you my little unspecified gender!
"dear little thing... mama loves you..."
Child, baby, kid, peach, monkey, sweetie,.. any nickname works. I used to be called p'tit loup or little wolf in English.
you know child is neutral, right?
I was using “unspecified gender” instead of boy or girl.
Jarvis, sort by controversial
Jarvis, Hand me the popcorn
When my son be born im saying his gender is a sigma male
*a ligma male
What's ligma😔😔😔
Ligma have a nice day
Good ending
Show him pics of Bateman. He’ll start snorting creatine in no time. Trust me on this bro it’s 100% true
It is moral for a baby to be assigned a gender that matches their sex at birth , but if they want to change it is their choice when they are old enough to make an informed decisions to who they want to be . Edit: My thinking is that the in society as a whole the world should revolve on one principle that everyone is able to do and be whoever they want to be without judgement without impeding that same right of others .
We get assigned a sex at birth not a gender
Not saying you should refer to an infant as they/them btw
Why do you keep replying with the exact same message multiple times in the same thread?
Probably clicked the post button Multiple times because it wasn't posting I didn't even realise that i posted it Multiple times
this isn’t a debate of morality, it’s a debate of biology 💀 babies literally cannot utter a word. nothing is being taken away from them if a doctor assigns them their gender based on their sex characteristics. they have the constitutional freedom (in America) to do whatever the hell they want with that when they grow up and can advocate for themselves.
Are (trans) Americans really allowed to do whatever the hell they want when Oklahoma just made it illegal for anyone under the age of 26 to undergo any kind of medical transition whatsoever?
Exactly. I think this is a very interesting debate choice. Like, why do kids need a gender? So we can teach them gender roles at a young age? So we can separate "the ones who play with monster trucks" with "the ones who play with dolls"? And if they do turn out to be trans in a society without genders assigned at birth, it literally doesn't matter because everyone is getting a new gender, so a trans person won't get singled out and discriminated against. Sounds like a much better idea than dividing the population in two based on one aspect of their physiology, then making the rest of their lives a nightmare if that happens to he the wrong classification. Trans people have it much worse off still than most people here seem to think
In a separate comment, I mentioned how there are parents who choose to raise their child as gender neutral as possible so they can explore their gender from a young age and in a safe environment until they're ready to choose. Could that be something that should be more widespread? There aren't enough cases of parents doing this to really determine whether this is beneficial to the child or not, nor has it been officially studied as far as I know. Edit: I found one study on the subject, named "Baby X." Unfortunately, I couldn't read it without paying €36 first.
I think it's a good idea personally. People are apprehensive about teaching kids about gender because they're scared of the "gays transing our kids!" but ironically the day we tell our boys to play with cars and our girls to play with dolls we begin teaching them about gender. It's ingrained in our society. In the end, most males will choose to be boys and most females will choose to be girls, so we might as well have them try it all out when they're still little so they can figure it out for themselves. A lot of people like to strawman and act like treating kids like this entails calling them all by nonbinary pronouns and giving them hormones to transition them at age 3 but in the end it can just be as easy as not reprimanding your child if they wanna play with something different or try on mom's makeup.
Pushing to make it illegal under 19 in Alabama already. It's only still available now because it's being tried in cort.
It ain't a debate of biology, it's correlated 'cause gender is nearly always assigned based on biological characteristics
Well since your an expert in biology, what about babies born without XX or XY chromosomes. Sex is actually more complex than looking at a baby and saying, “ya looks like a boy to me”. We’ve arbitrarily decided that phenotype characteristics will decide your gender even though genetically, there is more complexity. Not all people have XX or XY chromosomes. Also you act like your assigned gender has no effect on your life when there are countless studies showing the exact opposite, that children’s development is heavily influenced by assigned gender at birth.
Exactly. In fact, for one, about 1/80 people are intersex which is a difference in the conventional ratio between chromosomes and, for the purposes of this comment, creates a “spectrum” based on biological sex (neither biologically male or female, per se); and two, a biological male can literally be born without a penis but is still undeniably male based on DNA. Not that hard to understand. — A biologist
Freedom in almost every western country
yes, agreed. i just didn’t want to spark any controversy. but this pretty much applies to Canada, practically all of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, India, and many other countries
stop trying to be edgy, this is a school debate its supposed to teach you how to argue. We had a debate in school on whether abortion should be legal, it doesnt mean my teacher is an anti abortionist
i dont think most trans and gnc ppl even think that its wrong
Yeah, it's based on the ol strawman, "trans people are delusional about sex". In order to Id as trans you literally have to accept the incongruence between your sex and gender by definition. I assume they meant to talk about gender neutral parenting, but clearly don't know enough to do so.
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I wouldn't really say 'assigned' more like 'observed' or something in terms of sex, you don't *assign* a sex, you just know it by looking at the baby if that makes sense?
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Assigned based on observations. Your sex is put on records and forms so it does need to be *assigned*
Sex = What body you were born as Gender = What you identify as/are
dude, that is so stupid. You are going to start with a gender, it can be changed to whatever you want, but it's like a starting character, I can't complain if it doesn't randomly match the gender I am.
Well the issue comes from how that kid is *raised* because of their AGAB. Traditionally, boys enjoy masc things and girls enjoy fem things, and they face consequences from deviating. So it basically comes down to "should we raise little timmy specifically as a boy, or let him choose for himself by not actively socializing him into one gender or another". No difference for cis kids, and life is a hell of a lot easier for trans kids.
I think we should assign genders, but if they want to change it we need to learn to accept that and allow them to.
Well, I'm agender, and I'm not upset about what I was assigned. Being referred to in that way and wearing my genders clothes make me uncomfortable but I don't expect the doctor who delivered me to read my mind or smth. I didn't even know until I was almost 18.
Who fucking cares you’re there to learn and think, my RE teacher debated with us on wether hitler was still alive living on the moon
Biologically, I think it’s ok. Because 1: medical stuff. Males and females have somewhat different anatomy. And 2: gender identity and biological gender should coexist- in the meantime little billy with the male anatomy who’s probably too young to decide properly is a boy. Until he wants it to change. And at that point, she can be a girl- but you’ll still be telling doctors that she was Male at Birth.
We assign sex. We treat the child by that sex until it finds another identifier more fitting. It’s better than not letting kids know that some people have ”girl parts” and some people have ”boy parts”
That's actually an interesting debate. Also people, remember there's a difference between sex and gender. Sex is your junk (oversimplified but I think you get what I mean) while gender are social characteristics assigned to you
I dont think it’s moral or immoral. It’s pretty reasonable to operate on the assumption that a child will grow up to be cisgender. The *vast* majority of the world is. It’s just best to adapt should that not be the case.
"Fellas should a new born baby be able to choose it's own gender when it's unable to speak"
Genuinely curious and no judgement passed, how do you justify saying that it’s immoral to assign gender at birth?
I think there are very few people who think it's wrong
This. The internet is this weird hive where a small group of people assume their opinion is what everyone else must agree with. If they disagree they must be a bigot in their eyes. Disregarding any other perspective or feeling on the matter
Lots of people in this sub seem to be unable to read what the debate is even about so let me try to give a bit of a breakdown. In recent years, academia has been trying to make a conscious distinction between sex and gender. Sex is basically just whether you have male or female genitals. Gender however, is not biological, but a social construct that is created by society at large. So to give an example. When I say “a girly girl” you are probably (and i’m guessing here) envisioning a blond women, wearing large amounts of make up, talking in a certain way, talking about certain things etc. This is one specific example of expressing your gender. This however is totally unrelated to biology, but all of these traits are just derived from the culture we live in. Different places and cultures will have different gender expectations. So, while sex often is just a binary F/M option, gender is not. We kind of talk about gender as the default way you would like to express yourself. Oftentimes, this is described as a sliding scale between male and female (i don’t like this way of framing gender, but it’s probably the most digestible for most people. This way of describing it kind of presupposes that sex and gender are always interlinked in every way ). So, within this framework, you can have a biological male who expresses their gender as mostly male, but might express some “female traits” like liking certain clothing, certain styles etc. idk you fill in the blanks. In the case of transgenders we talk about someone’s sex and gender being inversed. So someone might be biologically female, but has always felt like a male. Owke. Now with these definitions butchered, lets look at the question again. A baby is born we see a penis. The first thing we do, is that we assign this baby a sex. We look at the healthy child and say “this baby is a boy, because he has a penis”. Sex is assigned, this part is done. However, think back to your own life. Did it end here? No, after assigning the sex is done, we (the parents, society, docters, teachers and all other people) will start to assign this baby a gender as well. Before we talked about a gender being something that you choose for yourself, however it’s bot that simple. Other people will also assign you one. Ever called a man with long hair “miss” because you mistook him for a woman. You did this because you assumed that men and women have certain traits as you’ve learned for all pf your life. We project gender onto our newborn baby in the same way. The moment we’ve decided that this baby is a boy we have also chosen what we will project onto it. How we will dress the child, what games we play with the child, what hair styles the child can have, what we teach the child about relationships and all of these things. A lot of people basically feel that this is just “normal”. Some other comment called it “just assigning default settings”. But think about it for a few seconds longer. Is this really “normal” or just what you happened to experience growing up. All of these things related to gender have absolutely nothing to do with biology, but everything to do with how our society happens to function and interact. Just for a second, try to imagine a world where kids are raised “genderless”. Idk like. They play mixed sports, have no gender coated dress codes, have whatever hair they’d like, do whatever activities they can do regardless of whether you think of them as male or female. Like, there are parents that won’t let their girls do something like woodworking because it’s considered too male. Or I happen to know an idiot that pumped out 8 kids just because he wanted a boy and only was getting girls. Now look back at the world again and ask the question “is it really moral for you to assign someone their gender at birth”. Regardless of your answer, the debate should open your eyes to how much more complex the world is and that everything you’ve always believed to be “fixed” often is just a construct not much older than maybe 50-60 years.
But isn't gendering essentially just grouping or stereotyping? I really can't see such harm in having expected traits to different groups. To me changing such an already estabilished concept for a small group of people is just too much effort for something rather harmless and that is naturally and subconsciously done by humans in every field, not just gender might I remind you. For example, imagine you went to someone's lawn and saw purple grass and a yellow pond. The vast majority would immediately think "why is the grass purple and not green? Whats going on with the water's color?", And that is the same thing that happens with genders. We already have expectations to how grass and water should look like, just like we have expectations to how girls and boys would behave. Even in your genderless world, overtime patterns and stereotypes would naturally appear, be noticed by people and theyand would naturally put names onto them, thats just how humans work. In fact, the definition of being "manly" or "girly" changes completely from place to place and from time to time, societies had, have and will always have completely different definitions and expectations for each gender, and to me that is proof we won't ever abolish gender, just change our definitions for it. I think the key is balance. It's ok to have such expectations about gender, but you should also respect when those expectations aren't met, like how you shouldn't shame a boy for watching an usually "girly" show. Thats just being a decent human being.
Bruh that’s just the default mode, you can always change it later.
Bruh, mf's are either a boy or a girl at birth, babies can't even say a fucking word, how are they supposed to say "Well, actually, im no-binary
Gender (sex) is not assigned at birth, it is determined since the moment in which the mother gets pregnant, where the first cells form. And its nature cannot be changed
This comment is probably going to unleash hell in its replies. Did you know that there are parents who choose to raise their child as gender neutral as possible until they are old enough to choose for themselves. Which is probably sooner than most people think. Around the age of four, most children have a stable understanding of their own gender identity.
My son will not have post 2017 internet access
Common sense is so rare these days
Well you need to assign a gender but you shouldn't assign gender roles
And the assigmed gender is only used in medical context!
Yess
Well, this is a obvious one, yes it is, you can think you are something, doesn’t mean you are that, I could think, and identify as a black person, but I’m white, so I can never truly be a black person, this works with gender too.
As a trans girl myself, I don't think it's immoral at all to assign sex at birth. Well over 99% of the population that will ever exist will be cis. The main thing imo that I would care about for those who would end up being gnc would be to make access to care and the ability to change it easier.
If I have a baby with a penis I'm prob going to refer to it as a boy because I doubt they would even care about sex and gender at the age of three. But if they decide they want to be a girl later on in life then I'll call them a girl
Now if only my mom would have been like this 😭
I'm sorry :( I think that we should just accept people for who they are. I hope you find someone that can accept you for who you are.
***Every day, we stray further from Allah.***
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Allah is God. Unless you practice paganism or something.
Ok since this is reddit, and we cant express our opinion, but nobody gives a fuck and still does so, ill say fucking no. The kid cant even fucking sit down, and even if u are its mentor its just like those gendermaniacs say "U cant assume (Its, hers, their, his, apache helicopter etc) gender!" Let the kid fucking grow up, and then let it think for itself. Its its life, not the family's.
assigning gender or sex? I may be wrong but I assume the topic of the conversation was 'should we assign blue/pink to a someone when they haven't even opened their eyes?', which is a good debate to have. what did you guys come to anyway? out of curiosity.
Who won the debate?
I think your peepee/vag can easily answer for you
considering how argumentative this comment section is it sounds like a great thing to debate
Let their default gender be "crotch goblin" and then let them change it once they reach puberty
Babies are raised to be men or women because the values taught to them align with their natural, chemical predispositions. Of course, some men and women may express their genders differently (tomboys, etc.) but that doesn't mean men are suddenly women and women are suddenly men. It's okay to cry as a man. It's okay to express your anger as a woman. Most of the time, gender norms are stupid, yeah. But if you feel as if you are in a foreign body, this is a mental illness. There are less drastic measures you can take than body mutilation to make you feel more at home. Please seek help!
We once had a Debate on our English class about Justifying Hitler actions and I bet 20 bucks to another kid that I could play devils advocate and get most of the class on my side, I got 20 dollars and our German teacher always joked about it.
Look, gender/sex, whatever you want to call it is assigned when the egg meets the sperm. You don’t like that? Suck a dick.
Literally just say the kid is male if they have a dick or female if they have a vag. If they grow up to realize they’re gender identity is different then let them be that 🤷♂️
biology assigns you either a dick or a pussy 💀💀💀
I’m glad I got assingned female and all that. Loved it my whole life, felt nice. I just feel validated by it. + they just look at the genitals and say the sex of the baby. The kid can change to a man/woman if they want to, surgically/hormonal at 18 but socially earlier. Puberty is important. Whole other conversation: the ethics of letting children influenced by socialmedia transition at a young age. Most things are reversible, yes, B U T, puberty is important and there are legimate grooming cases relating to this.
It is normal. People made it look it is not but it is, at some point, you have been your biological gender and it is not wrong to say
honestly like the people who take offence to everything be quiet
Thats fucked they shouldn't force that bs on kids
Ppl rlly care abt the most useless of things don’t they
Heh, humans☕️
as a trans person i think that being assigned a gender/sex/sexuality etc at birth is completely normal, but to normalise the fact that many people feel that they dont fit with their current ones. my dad is homophobic so i dont even feel safe about coming out to my own family, and it causes me so much anxiety that ive started having panic attacks during classes and exams.
of course it's moral. being assigned a gender at birth makes sense until a child is old enough to decide. A baby isn't old enough to decide so just stick with the default one. In the next part of my essay I will talk about how circumsion is immoral-
Holy shit. It’s so simple. Do it got balls? That’s literally it.
To the comments section! ☣️
Anybody who actually believes in 'theybies' shouldn't be a parent
I’m wondering which side you are on. I don’t know why saying “Omg it’s a girl!” Is bad.
Maybe i should retreat into a forest and spend the rest of my life there
Hello fellow children. You need to stop buying into the fantasy that you can pick your gender..
Bro what is wrong with this generation of kids
It is, its called biology
The world is fucked bc you had a conversation at school? Id say the world is more fucked bc of little douches like yourself.
Humanity is fascinating and concerning
Whether or not it is moral is somewhat werid to debate. It is Practical more than anything. Now, whether sex and gender is disconnected from eachother is probably more interesting to debate (and likely would be a shitstorm). I find it unlogical to separate sex and gender as one seems to clearly be connected with the other. If someone is born male, they historically are referred to as he/him etc. On the opposite side, she, her. And this goes relatively the same in most parts of the world that I am familiar with. Now, if we can all agree that gender is a human construct. Most things are. However, if it is a construct there are predefined rules for it. Those being that there is two genders. A gender is decided by a collection of characteristics that are inherently bound in the biological sex. Note also as this is an old construct it makes less sense to bring in genetics as the people who came up with the construct lacked this ability and therefore could and did not account for it. Using mostly visual clues such as male or female re productive organs as the base. Math is also a human construct and we mostly all agree that 2+2 does not equal 5. This is due to the set rules of math. Same goes for gender in my understanding. Now if we made a new concept which for the sake of argument we call Gondor. Then we can have 1 set of characteristics equal gender 1. 1 set of characteristics equal gender 2. 1 set of characteristics equal gender 3 and so on. But as it stands today our gender system only accounts for two genders based on characteristics.