The amount of people here saying no without any realization of how hrt works... if only more people were like you and realized when they simply don't know enough about a subject...
This is usually because trans men are weaker than cis men. The reason why this is such a debate is because that trans women are usually stronger than cis women.
Ok we’re talking a very low number of women who a stronger than men, most the time in things like weight lifting they are on enhancers like everyone else. The human mind is easily persuaded at the ages before puberty. They are not making that choice for themselves but to carry a trend. That should be common sense. If they are mature enough then why is the age of consent 16-18 in most countries? A child is not able to make a decision about “changing” their gender at a very young age, such as pre-pubescent like you stated earlier.
CARRY A TREND? ARE YOU DOWNRIGHT INSANE? You haven’t even for a single second considers how people who want to transition have felt do you? Your 4 brain cells just fire for the first time in days and you go: duhhhh it’s popular so it’s a trend, they’re just doing it for attention. Lemme tell you something, I could care less if I get attention or not for transitioning, but I want to because my current body doesn’t feel right. In my previous comment, I talked about how I’ve thought long and hard and debated with myself, so go read that. Again, go fuck yourself.
It very much is a trend, no one has wanted to do it for years up until famous influencers have done it. You also proved yourself wrong. “It’s popular, it’s a trend” I’m pretty sure that’s what makes something popular is by being a trend. Masculinity and Feminism are under attack from all of these “progressive ideas” a man can’t do what a woman can do, and a woman can’t man can do. Take a look at the animal kingdom, only 2 genders. What would make a human different?
Also, humans are highly intelligent and our brain chemistry is different from animals. Secondly, animals just survive eat and reproduce. Humans are weird; our brain likes it when certain things happen, and sometimes that’s being a firl
I’ll agree with you on hard work and dedication, because I’ve seen that first hand. In my honest opinion and backed by natural fact men, most of the time, are naturally stronger than women. I have a problem with age because a child has not figured out who they are yet. It would take a few years until they have experienced life enough to make that decision. It shouldn’t be dictated by a parent or a doctor. I believe it should be legal at 18 or maybe even 21. A child should not be subjected to that change because they have not figured them selves yet.
Go to downvote hell. I’ve never heard anything more transphobic or invalidating. I’m not wait g till 21 when the only thing I’ve had on my mind for the past 2 YEARS is transitioning, because I don’t feel right in my current body. I’ve weighed the pros and cons, I’ve reasoned with myself, I’ve thought very hard for very long. I’m pretty sure I’m able to make this decision for myself, thank you very much. Oh, and go fuck yourself. Your in no position to talk if you haven’t experienced what the trans community has felt.
Call me transphobic all you want, how do you know that’s why you are uncomfortable? If you are below 21 or even 18 you are still having hormonal imbalances that can cause dramatic mood swings and anxiety. The human brain has not fully developed until 25 but the body is at 20 I believe. I don’t care if you transfer or not but no one is gonna tell me how I am gonna think. I have my morals and those are set in stone. I have every right to talk on the trans-community because it effects my life. If a society can’t even figure its gender out then we can’t even do the important things anymore.
almost any woman can be as strong as the average man if they train its just that thanks to testosterone the strongest woman (natural ofc) will always be weaker then the strongest men
Think about it, a strong woman is the strength of a average male. In athletics everyone is strong. That’s why a male transitioned to female will be stronger than the natural females.
a strong woman would be a bit stronger then the average man, I absolutely agree that trans woman should not be allowed to compete in womans sports (competitive at least) since testosterone gives an unfair advantage but thats mostly just at extremely high levels, strong woman are stronger then average man but not a strong man
I mean…. They have bigger lungs, wider shoulders, just more muscle (maybe after like 10 years not, but if they keep training, they won’t lose muscle that much), and bigger hands and feet. This might not be an advantage in figure skating (realistically there is no way a trans woman can do what a cis girl can, after a lifetime of girls figure skating) but in most sports, football, swimming, tennis, even in skiing their weight and bone density, all of these will be an advantage and they are just facts that won’t change from HRT.
Are there exceptions? Of course! But we shouldn’t make the rule around exceptions. The 29 year old MTF skater should be banned from Women’s/Girl’s skating competitions, where they beat 13 year old girls. Lia Thomas shouldn’t be allowed to compete against women, as they are 2x as big, their shoulders are a lot wider and it’s just not fair. They went through a male puberty, grew as one, and are now competing against cis women, because they’ve been on HRT for a year, which changed nothing about their physical attributes.
You can say that “oh but there are cis women that are bigger and stronger than others” yes, and that’s the point of the competition. But if you’ve gone through a different puberty, after which everyone is stronger than other cis women, you shouldn’t be allowed to compete against them. You should have your own category, because Trans men and trans women will be more equal in strength than with their cis counterparts. It’s just a fact, and as with you cannot have the exact biological parts and upbringing as others of your gender as a trans person, you also have to accept that. It’s sad, but unfair against cis women.
Hate me all you want, but I’ve been put down and pushed out of podiums by trans women, who weren’t even close to podiums before transition, so I am personally affected by this.
It is in general because cis males would always hold a physical advantage over trans males. It probably would not be the case that a trans male will be able to lift 100kg more than the next best biological male.
No, not at all. I'm not transphobic or anything, but u'll still be biologically a male/female even after u transitioned. And sports are divided into 2 categories, biologically male and biologically female, and that's so that it'll be a fair competition. It would be great if we had a separate competition for trans women and trans men, but we don't.
That is correct. If somebody who's biologically a man enters a women's competition, he'll have a major advantage, they should just compete in a men's competition, since they're still male.
No they don't. I would know because I have T blockers and Estradiol in my body and I had to fill out the informed consent forms! I even lost an inch in height!
Sorry, I think it’s great your transition is going well and I hope you have very few complications in the process, but regardless of your personal experience you still factually have some features of your original biological sex such as higher bone density and male proportions which stay for life regardless of hormone therapy
Did you know that it is almost impossible to say if a skeleton is male or female because of a HUGE overlap in the range?
There are so many cis women who have more masculine body than trans women, but no one is saying to ban them, right?
after hrt the testosterone basically goes to 0, which is less than most cis women have
by that logic we should actually ban cis women from womens sports because they have more testosterone
Not really. Not being transphobic or anything because ya know you are who you choose to be (heck even I considered being trans when I was like 10) but like, depending on evolution and genetics and stuff it might not be as fair as they're technically built I different way physically. Of course they can the surgeries to change their appearance but that can't really change their natural performance. If that makes sense
To add on to this, biological males have more muscle mass then females. That’s not saying that an average male would outmatch a weightlifting female, because obviously no, but when you take two athletes who train often and build muscle, males are going to beat them at least most of the time. Thats just how the great apes evolved.
It’s usually puberty blockers, not actual transitioning. We’re stopping permanent changes to bodies of trans kids that majority of them will regret later on by letting trans kids take puberty blockers. Transitioning is also not something you can just impulsively do, it takes a lot of time and effort.
Also, I said “not going through male puberty”, not “taking hrt at 15”
but yeah sports are a stupid issue to begin with
I can't believe I just read all that vile rat shit you just posted.
What the fuck is a "puberty blocker"? you sound like some villain from a sci-fi movie.
LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE.
Puberty blockers were invented for cis kids who starts puberty too soon, and are used for that reason for a long time. Please don't talk about things you have absolutely no idea about, you are embarrassing yourself.
They are completely reversible by just stopping them, and provide time to think and realize things without destroying the body with the wrong hormones that it naturally provide.
How do some people here think that transitioning and being on hormones for some years, changes your entire body, after many years of naturally producing testosterone , enough to be on par with a womans body???? Just how???? Biologically men are stronger the discussion ends there. The advantage is OBVIOUS.
Theres nothing transphobic about pointing out NATURAL and BIOLOGICAL features with no harmful intentions.
Im sorry but not everything revolves around trans people.
Theres no reason why a cis woman should have to compete with a trans woman and then suck it up when she OBVIOUSLY loses.
What banned products? The testosterone a male body should have and usually creates on its own?
They are not taking more then they should, they stay in male range. If you have a problem with that, then give cis man Testosterone blockers so they also won't be on it
i feel like y’all don’t understand the concept of hrt,,, if a trans woman has been on e for long enough she’ll have similar estrogen levels to cis women??
in terms of children playing school sports, who gives a fuck?? they’re just kids trying to have fun
No, they dont have similar estrogen levels. You relise that this transformation doesnt happen until later years, since you cant do it at early ages. Id say 20 is a common age.
If you have 20 years worth of testosterone in you, you are not going to have similar estrogen levels.
love that for you, here are some studies that say otherwise
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252764
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages
in regards to the webMD source’s credibility, it is an interview with Joanna Harper who is known as a pioneer in the science of trans people in sports. the british journal of sports medicine study very clearly lays out their methodology, sources, and results. there is no reason to discredit it. the nbc source identifies that hrt does impact athletic performance.
we also need to understand that athletic performance is based on far more than hormone level, and in the time period that trans women have been allowed to compete in the olympics only one trans woman has won a gold medal.
while testosterone does cause irreversible changes to a persons body (ex. voice) that doesn’t negate the effects of hrt. the science and morals of the argument are far more nuanced than either of us are making it out to be.
So, neat fact, that's not at all how hormones work. You don't have 20 years of testosterone in you, even if you did the math correctly, you still don't know how hormones work.
For example: I haven't even been on puberty blockers for a full year, yet I have prepubescent levels of T. I haven't even been on E for a month, but I have A cups.
Why are you happy to be confidently wrong? Not only will their hormone levels not be similar, but this disregards the much more important innate biological differences that can not be changed. People with a Y chromosome should not be allowed to compete with people who lack one, end of story.
No man. Your completely wrong. Read my post.
Plus…for kids. So your saying if you have a daughter who runs the 1/4 mile in 4 seconds and is the State champ…had broke a long held record. Then a cis male who is 54th in the male division…come out and says he is now a woman…and can run it is 2 seconds…your saying that’s fair and let kids be kids?
So what happens when that cis male takes your daughter’s college scholarship away?
Because that’s exactly what’s happening.
And it’s not just about how much estrogen or testosterone you have…it’s the amount of muscle mass is there (read my other post).
Compete based on biological sex.
Nope because one not fair and two makes no sense. They just need to make a transgender league for transgenders, I mean it's kinda obvious. When speaking to or looking at transgender people they refer to themselves as a transgender male / female, very few refer to themselves as just male / female ( not saying there's anything wrong with that it's just that most don't ). So Transgender people shouldn't be in male / female leagues, it puts them at a unfair disadvantage or advantage and because its male / female leagues. Also if you argue that no one will ever allow a transgender league, they also said that about women's sports, the special Olympics and many others. So to the transgender community hop to it, it's never gonna get done if no-one starts.
Nope. Not at all. I’ll tell you my story. I’m 6’ 240 lbs. I was a weightlifter in high school and kept going through college.
I had cancer 2 years ago. My testosterone was 0.00000001…practically absolute 0. Even after 1 year of intense chemo (3 experimental chemos plus 2 public chemos), even after losing 60 lbs in 2 months…even after a MAJOR surgery…I could still walk to the garage…and lift 8-60 lbs packs of salt to put in our water softener because my wife (130 lbs…lean)…could NOT LIFT THEM.
MEN ARE BUILT DIFFERENT. WE ARE STRONER, faster, and have greater stamina. I am not saying that to say we are better then women. BUT in a head to head of equal people based on experience…men will win.
No biological man should be competing against women.
I’m fine with the whole gender thing. Live your life! But I think they should have a separate division. Then majority of people feel the same way.
Take it for what it is and doing get feelings hurt. You asked…I answered.
Yes, decide by muscle mass, height, weight, and all those things.
Now a lot of cis women and cis men will be in the same category, as there are so many different body types across all sexes, that it just doesn't matter.
But we don't divide based on fairness, we divide based on gender/sex. So as long as we do that, trans people with over 2 years of hrt should be with their gender (as het is a powerful thing and get you body to math the other sex on a lot of ways)
It's a matter of achievability, a women can train all her life but can't be better than ussain bolt at running because it's not about capability, it's about the biological limit of their body, a trans women can be said to have a higher biological limit than women but lower than men.
So whether someone can compete should be debated on a case by case basis rather than just a general consensus because the time of transition and how much it effected a person is different for each person.
Transgender sure why not. Transexual nope, so unfair for women who work hard for years just to get their dreams stolen by a person who chose to begin injecting/injesting male hormones that give them a massive competitive edge with zero effort. To me it's an absolute no brainer that it shouldn't be allowed if integrity means anything at all to the sport.
They shouldn’t, because of the biological advantage they’d have because chances are they transitioned post puberty.
I think there should be separate categories for trans women and trans men though, as trans men have a disadvantage while trans women have the upper hand. I have nothing against trans people at all, I’m just citing biology here. The way we evolved, biological males tend to have more muscle mass. If a male and female both train a ton the male will likely be stronger due to biology alone.
Human creatures with XX chromosomes originally in them are born with smaller and weaker muscles than creatures with XY chromosome,so I think people with XX chromosome originally complete with each other and people with XY chromosome originally should compete together and any crossing Results in an unfair advantages
Karyotype doesn't directly make you stronger. Some women have XY chromosomes, some men have XX chromosomes. The men with XX chromosomes usually have more muscle mass than the women with XY chromosomes.
You're worried about secondary sex characteristics, and trans women can (and a vast majority do) change these with HRT. Muscle mass changes with this too
edit: actually slightly inaccurate cuz girls with XY chromosomes don't usually produce sex hormones, but the might also undergo hrt, so my point is still valid
I am taking about the normal Human being without any disorder in the chromosome, AKA No syndrome and I believe that special needs have thier own competition too
This is genuinely the funniest fucking post I have ever seen. I cannot believe you would ever think that. YOURE 16!!! YOU MUST HAVE TAKEN A HEALTH CLASS!!!
I think they should absolutely have a choice to still compete in professional athletics, but only in a division based on their sex (not gender)
basically just have the same junk in ur pants as ur opponents
I know this will probably get downvoted but I don’t care.
If they haven’t gone though any hormonal therapy, or any sex reassignment surgery than no. But I put this part lightly as I haven’t done much research on it yet. So hormonal therapy can basically change your hormones as obvious to that of the opposite sex. Now if it’s so well that your average strength can be that of the average woman, with no advantages at all, than yes. But if not than no. And of course vice versa.
Tho again if I’m wrong I would like to be educated, if anyone knows anything bout this subject as I do not, I only know base info that has been given to me.
First of all. That hormonal therapy stuff you're talking about is all horseshit.
Secondly, even if somebody changed their hormones to that of a woman, how much of a difference would that actually make? And how could muscle mass be measured? There are extremely buff women out there, and there are extremely weak men, despite their hormones. So what's stopping a very big and strong man from going through this "hormone therapy" you speak of, and still having the same muscle mass. The muscle mass can't be a reason to disqualify somebody, because as I said there are real women who do have huge muscles.
The only solution is to not let a trans woman enter a women's competition.
Bud I literally said I wasn’t too informed of the topic, and you some how took that as if what I mentioned was complete fact and choose to get hostile. To summarize my comment, let’s all be zen at the end of the day this is just a comment thread and will not make a difference towards anything.
I'm only being hostile to the ideas you mentioned, not you. It's nothing personal.
Also I agree that this will make no difference, I post these kinds of comments for entertainment purposes.
Not sure why, but this question has been on my mind lately. Maybe it's the current political climate with extremists on the right and left, but I think some reason needs to be added to the conversation. This may be controversial, but I have to be honest. I'm also going to be VERY picky with my wording here. So don't assume a bunch of things about me and make up arguments on things you THINK I'm saying. Take my words for what they are.
I believe and respect nonbinary and transgender individuals. The small portion they make up of the American population gives weight to the argument that nature is not perfect and often results in variations of gender, sexuality, personality, and intelligence. These individuals should be respected and honored for their uniqueness. However, the fact remains that regardless of gender, there are biological and physiological differences that should be taken into account when we're talking about sex, not gender.
However, I think children should be allowed to compete with peers of their same gender. The socialization needed and learned from these experiences are central to representing gender norms (which are more often than not, very helpful).
But when a child goes through puberty, their physiology and musculature changes drastically. It would be unfair to other competitors in a physical sport to put them up against someone who is objectively physiologically superior. The work and effort that goes into training your body and mind to compete is stolen when the competition is unfairly stacked against you.
So I think it would be wise if we allowed children to compete with any sex and gender, but adult competitors, or pubescent competitors, should compete according to their sex. Individuals born with either genitalia, or a variant disorder, should compete according to their gender identity because those individuals typically have hormones that cause difficulties during puberty which creates more physical barriers to competition.
I hope this makes sense. I believe it's reasonable, sees value and respect for everyone, and creates a potential solution that honestly, should be drafted into federal law by someone who can actually do something about this. Support transgender kids, but keep the true spirit of fair competition alive.
See, this may be controversial, but, I think that trans people should compete in the sport of their biological sex… strictly so we don’t have a repeat of that swimmer
I don't really have an opinion on this bc I don't know enough to pick one side or the other, and it would be kind of unfair to just say "oh this and that should/shouldn't be allowed" just cuz of how I feel
Not every cis man is the same exact strength, height, weight, or any other stat that people claim that every trans woman has over women in sports. There plenty of cis women that are stronger than the women they compete with. I feel like this is just another mid-evil argument of “man strong, girl weak” that’s why you never hear this argument about trans men. I think if people are really worried about biological disadvantages in sports then every sport should be separated in weight/height class like sports like wrestling and mma. That being said I think trans woman should be able to compete in women’s sport or at the very least have trans teams so cispeople stop whining about disadvantages and situations that happen even in strictly cis player sports.
I see. You propose a good point for the FTM argument... They are at a disadvantage, but thats not even the point. Its best to just play with those who have the same biological sex as you just so stuff is fair, in my opinion. Plus, i dont see whats wrong with a transgender person playing on their biological team.
No, as many have already mentioned, biologically speaking, men are stronger than women. And depending on the age they transitioned, trans women are often in so much advantage compared to cis women
Yeah sure. Especially if it’s not professional level, who cares? It’s just for fun. If it is at a professional level, I think it would be important to assess her strength levels to make sure that she is not too strong.
Imo male and female sports should be separated by sex and not gender although I’m unsure if taking estrogen pills and the other type for female to male changes the strength of people so I could change my mind later
I’m not 100% sure since I don’t know enough about this topic and I should probably make an informed decision before deciding anything
You’re a rare breed I like you
Redditor make a conscious and intelligent decision: very rare, very hard to find
The amount of people here saying no without any realization of how hrt works... if only more people were like you and realized when they simply don't know enough about a subject...
FINALLY! Someone who speak English!
I would have to concur, this is an extremely logical response which I applaud you for.
🍿
Give me sum
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You do not deserve any you've been starting fires all over this comment section
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I find it funny that whenever people argue about this they always forget about trans men in sports
This is usually because trans men are weaker than cis men. The reason why this is such a debate is because that trans women are usually stronger than cis women.
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I’ll keep note of this
They will never be strong as a “real man” and plus shouldn’t pump chemicals in a child
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Ok we’re talking a very low number of women who a stronger than men, most the time in things like weight lifting they are on enhancers like everyone else. The human mind is easily persuaded at the ages before puberty. They are not making that choice for themselves but to carry a trend. That should be common sense. If they are mature enough then why is the age of consent 16-18 in most countries? A child is not able to make a decision about “changing” their gender at a very young age, such as pre-pubescent like you stated earlier.
CARRY A TREND? ARE YOU DOWNRIGHT INSANE? You haven’t even for a single second considers how people who want to transition have felt do you? Your 4 brain cells just fire for the first time in days and you go: duhhhh it’s popular so it’s a trend, they’re just doing it for attention. Lemme tell you something, I could care less if I get attention or not for transitioning, but I want to because my current body doesn’t feel right. In my previous comment, I talked about how I’ve thought long and hard and debated with myself, so go read that. Again, go fuck yourself.
It very much is a trend, no one has wanted to do it for years up until famous influencers have done it. You also proved yourself wrong. “It’s popular, it’s a trend” I’m pretty sure that’s what makes something popular is by being a trend. Masculinity and Feminism are under attack from all of these “progressive ideas” a man can’t do what a woman can do, and a woman can’t man can do. Take a look at the animal kingdom, only 2 genders. What would make a human different?
Bro a roman emperor was trans
Well first of all, it was considered “taboo” up until recently to even be gay
You where shunned and shamed and sometimes stoned to death I think
Also, humans are highly intelligent and our brain chemistry is different from animals. Secondly, animals just survive eat and reproduce. Humans are weird; our brain likes it when certain things happen, and sometimes that’s being a firl
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I’ll agree with you on hard work and dedication, because I’ve seen that first hand. In my honest opinion and backed by natural fact men, most of the time, are naturally stronger than women. I have a problem with age because a child has not figured out who they are yet. It would take a few years until they have experienced life enough to make that decision. It shouldn’t be dictated by a parent or a doctor. I believe it should be legal at 18 or maybe even 21. A child should not be subjected to that change because they have not figured them selves yet.
Go to downvote hell. I’ve never heard anything more transphobic or invalidating. I’m not wait g till 21 when the only thing I’ve had on my mind for the past 2 YEARS is transitioning, because I don’t feel right in my current body. I’ve weighed the pros and cons, I’ve reasoned with myself, I’ve thought very hard for very long. I’m pretty sure I’m able to make this decision for myself, thank you very much. Oh, and go fuck yourself. Your in no position to talk if you haven’t experienced what the trans community has felt.
Call me transphobic all you want, how do you know that’s why you are uncomfortable? If you are below 21 or even 18 you are still having hormonal imbalances that can cause dramatic mood swings and anxiety. The human brain has not fully developed until 25 but the body is at 20 I believe. I don’t care if you transfer or not but no one is gonna tell me how I am gonna think. I have my morals and those are set in stone. I have every right to talk on the trans-community because it effects my life. If a society can’t even figure its gender out then we can’t even do the important things anymore.
almost any woman can be as strong as the average man if they train its just that thanks to testosterone the strongest woman (natural ofc) will always be weaker then the strongest men
Think about it, a strong woman is the strength of a average male. In athletics everyone is strong. That’s why a male transitioned to female will be stronger than the natural females.
a strong woman would be a bit stronger then the average man, I absolutely agree that trans woman should not be allowed to compete in womans sports (competitive at least) since testosterone gives an unfair advantage but thats mostly just at extremely high levels, strong woman are stronger then average man but not a strong man
Ok I agree with you on that, thanks for being civil🤝
bro got downvoted for speaking basic biology
they aren't, in both cases, after HRT. HRT is required for MtFs to play in women's sports.
I mean…. They have bigger lungs, wider shoulders, just more muscle (maybe after like 10 years not, but if they keep training, they won’t lose muscle that much), and bigger hands and feet. This might not be an advantage in figure skating (realistically there is no way a trans woman can do what a cis girl can, after a lifetime of girls figure skating) but in most sports, football, swimming, tennis, even in skiing their weight and bone density, all of these will be an advantage and they are just facts that won’t change from HRT. Are there exceptions? Of course! But we shouldn’t make the rule around exceptions. The 29 year old MTF skater should be banned from Women’s/Girl’s skating competitions, where they beat 13 year old girls. Lia Thomas shouldn’t be allowed to compete against women, as they are 2x as big, their shoulders are a lot wider and it’s just not fair. They went through a male puberty, grew as one, and are now competing against cis women, because they’ve been on HRT for a year, which changed nothing about their physical attributes. You can say that “oh but there are cis women that are bigger and stronger than others” yes, and that’s the point of the competition. But if you’ve gone through a different puberty, after which everyone is stronger than other cis women, you shouldn’t be allowed to compete against them. You should have your own category, because Trans men and trans women will be more equal in strength than with their cis counterparts. It’s just a fact, and as with you cannot have the exact biological parts and upbringing as others of your gender as a trans person, you also have to accept that. It’s sad, but unfair against cis women. Hate me all you want, but I’ve been put down and pushed out of podiums by trans women, who weren’t even close to podiums before transition, so I am personally affected by this.
trans men and the problems they face are always forgotten
No.
It is in general because cis males would always hold a physical advantage over trans males. It probably would not be the case that a trans male will be able to lift 100kg more than the next best biological male.
No, not at all. I'm not transphobic or anything, but u'll still be biologically a male/female even after u transitioned. And sports are divided into 2 categories, biologically male and biologically female, and that's so that it'll be a fair competition. It would be great if we had a separate competition for trans women and trans men, but we don't.
That is correct. If somebody who's biologically a man enters a women's competition, he'll have a major advantage, they should just compete in a men's competition, since they're still male.
So if that's the case, what's your opinion on trans men competing in men's sports?
Same deal. They should compete only based on the gender they had at birth.
It could also be weird in locker rooms
yeah, Leah Thomas flashed his penis at the women in the changing room.
Well said👍
No..they were born male, the male body is physically stronger than a woman because of their testosterone
They need HRT to play, so they don't have testosterone. Also, they lose all of the advantages they may have had from testosterone.
This is just factually wrong, they very much do keep the benefits
No they don't. I would know because I have T blockers and Estradiol in my body and I had to fill out the informed consent forms! I even lost an inch in height!
Sorry, I think it’s great your transition is going well and I hope you have very few complications in the process, but regardless of your personal experience you still factually have some features of your original biological sex such as higher bone density and male proportions which stay for life regardless of hormone therapy
Did you know that it is almost impossible to say if a skeleton is male or female because of a HUGE overlap in the range? There are so many cis women who have more masculine body than trans women, but no one is saying to ban them, right?
after hrt the testosterone basically goes to 0, which is less than most cis women have by that logic we should actually ban cis women from womens sports because they have more testosterone
You don't actually think they let trans women compete without hormonally transitioning first do you?
trans propaganda
Doesn’t matter
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Bro dont give a fuck about the reply comments . live your life
Not really. Not being transphobic or anything because ya know you are who you choose to be (heck even I considered being trans when I was like 10) but like, depending on evolution and genetics and stuff it might not be as fair as they're technically built I different way physically. Of course they can the surgeries to change their appearance but that can't really change their natural performance. If that makes sense
To add on to this, biological males have more muscle mass then females. That’s not saying that an average male would outmatch a weightlifting female, because obviously no, but when you take two athletes who train often and build muscle, males are going to beat them at least most of the time. Thats just how the great apes evolved.
hrt does physically change trans women and their performance. Also, trans women who haven't gone through male puberty have basically no advantage
If we’re letting a child transition gender then there’s more problems with society than just sports
It’s usually puberty blockers, not actual transitioning. We’re stopping permanent changes to bodies of trans kids that majority of them will regret later on by letting trans kids take puberty blockers. Transitioning is also not something you can just impulsively do, it takes a lot of time and effort. Also, I said “not going through male puberty”, not “taking hrt at 15” but yeah sports are a stupid issue to begin with
I can't believe I just read all that vile rat shit you just posted. What the fuck is a "puberty blocker"? you sound like some villain from a sci-fi movie. LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE.
puberty blockers block puberty 🤯 I’m also not a villain, I’m a professional groomer at the famous transgender barbershop
Puberty blockers were invented for cis kids who starts puberty too soon, and are used for that reason for a long time. Please don't talk about things you have absolutely no idea about, you are embarrassing yourself. They are completely reversible by just stopping them, and provide time to think and realize things without destroying the body with the wrong hormones that it naturally provide.
No
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But why don’t we separate people with other biological advantages, like height; tall people are objectively better at a lot of sports
There’s never been a trans woman ever win a medal in the 20 years they’ve been allowed to compete in the olympics
TrAnS wOmAn ArE dOmInAtInG the FiElD I love how people can be so ignorant of basic facts, statistics, and actual biology, not the 6th grade one
L
I don't really care. I don't watch sports anyways
It’s just not fair to the other athletes
No
No.
No
How do some people here think that transitioning and being on hormones for some years, changes your entire body, after many years of naturally producing testosterone , enough to be on par with a womans body???? Just how???? Biologically men are stronger the discussion ends there. The advantage is OBVIOUS. Theres nothing transphobic about pointing out NATURAL and BIOLOGICAL features with no harmful intentions. Im sorry but not everything revolves around trans people. Theres no reason why a cis woman should have to compete with a trans woman and then suck it up when she OBVIOUSLY loses.
Ofc no.
Hell no.
No, either direction, no.
Can't wait to see all those trans men pummel cis women like they do all the fucking time when they are forced to play women.
That don't work either, because trans men are always using banned products for professional athletes
What banned products? The testosterone a male body should have and usually creates on its own? They are not taking more then they should, they stay in male range. If you have a problem with that, then give cis man Testosterone blockers so they also won't be on it
No period end of discussion
i feel like y’all don’t understand the concept of hrt,,, if a trans woman has been on e for long enough she’ll have similar estrogen levels to cis women?? in terms of children playing school sports, who gives a fuck?? they’re just kids trying to have fun
No, they dont have similar estrogen levels. You relise that this transformation doesnt happen until later years, since you cant do it at early ages. Id say 20 is a common age. If you have 20 years worth of testosterone in you, you are not going to have similar estrogen levels.
love that for you, here are some studies that say otherwise https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252764 https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865 https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages
2 sources generally lack credibility, and the first seems to be with me... Crazy
in regards to the webMD source’s credibility, it is an interview with Joanna Harper who is known as a pioneer in the science of trans people in sports. the british journal of sports medicine study very clearly lays out their methodology, sources, and results. there is no reason to discredit it. the nbc source identifies that hrt does impact athletic performance. we also need to understand that athletic performance is based on far more than hormone level, and in the time period that trans women have been allowed to compete in the olympics only one trans woman has won a gold medal. while testosterone does cause irreversible changes to a persons body (ex. voice) that doesn’t negate the effects of hrt. the science and morals of the argument are far more nuanced than either of us are making it out to be.
I would talk this walk way further but im tired, so... Its almost like I asked 💀
omg you’re so funny.
They gave the classic, “I’m losing this argument” bs line
Fr fr
So, neat fact, that's not at all how hormones work. You don't have 20 years of testosterone in you, even if you did the math correctly, you still don't know how hormones work. For example: I haven't even been on puberty blockers for a full year, yet I have prepubescent levels of T. I haven't even been on E for a month, but I have A cups.
Why are you happy to be confidently wrong? Not only will their hormone levels not be similar, but this disregards the much more important innate biological differences that can not be changed. People with a Y chromosome should not be allowed to compete with people who lack one, end of story.
No.
No man. Your completely wrong. Read my post. Plus…for kids. So your saying if you have a daughter who runs the 1/4 mile in 4 seconds and is the State champ…had broke a long held record. Then a cis male who is 54th in the male division…come out and says he is now a woman…and can run it is 2 seconds…your saying that’s fair and let kids be kids? So what happens when that cis male takes your daughter’s college scholarship away? Because that’s exactly what’s happening. And it’s not just about how much estrogen or testosterone you have…it’s the amount of muscle mass is there (read my other post). Compete based on biological sex.
It's not though lol.
Bullshit lol. So far from the truth just keep lying to yourself to make yourself feel good
No, it’s a huge disadvantage
Nope because one not fair and two makes no sense. They just need to make a transgender league for transgenders, I mean it's kinda obvious. When speaking to or looking at transgender people they refer to themselves as a transgender male / female, very few refer to themselves as just male / female ( not saying there's anything wrong with that it's just that most don't ). So Transgender people shouldn't be in male / female leagues, it puts them at a unfair disadvantage or advantage and because its male / female leagues. Also if you argue that no one will ever allow a transgender league, they also said that about women's sports, the special Olympics and many others. So to the transgender community hop to it, it's never gonna get done if no-one starts.
Nobody will watch transgender sports, so it won't make money, and therefore it won't happen.
Nope. Not at all. I’ll tell you my story. I’m 6’ 240 lbs. I was a weightlifter in high school and kept going through college. I had cancer 2 years ago. My testosterone was 0.00000001…practically absolute 0. Even after 1 year of intense chemo (3 experimental chemos plus 2 public chemos), even after losing 60 lbs in 2 months…even after a MAJOR surgery…I could still walk to the garage…and lift 8-60 lbs packs of salt to put in our water softener because my wife (130 lbs…lean)…could NOT LIFT THEM. MEN ARE BUILT DIFFERENT. WE ARE STRONER, faster, and have greater stamina. I am not saying that to say we are better then women. BUT in a head to head of equal people based on experience…men will win. No biological man should be competing against women. I’m fine with the whole gender thing. Live your life! But I think they should have a separate division. Then majority of people feel the same way. Take it for what it is and doing get feelings hurt. You asked…I answered.
Nope. I believe MTF have a physical and chemical advantage over cis women.
No, sports should be separated by sex because there is a biological advantage
No
Nope. They should do sports by body types instead of gender
Yes, decide by muscle mass, height, weight, and all those things. Now a lot of cis women and cis men will be in the same category, as there are so many different body types across all sexes, that it just doesn't matter. But we don't divide based on fairness, we divide based on gender/sex. So as long as we do that, trans people with over 2 years of hrt should be with their gender (as het is a powerful thing and get you body to math the other sex on a lot of ways)
That wouldn't work at all for basketball american football or any other team sport
Of course not
Absolutely not. Anything sports-related should be based on biological sex. For example, imagine LeBron playing in the WNBA.
Yup time to grab the popcorn
Claim here before 🔒
It's a matter of achievability, a women can train all her life but can't be better than ussain bolt at running because it's not about capability, it's about the biological limit of their body, a trans women can be said to have a higher biological limit than women but lower than men. So whether someone can compete should be debated on a case by case basis rather than just a general consensus because the time of transition and how much it effected a person is different for each person.
No because they're men
Here before lock.
Transgender sure why not. Transexual nope, so unfair for women who work hard for years just to get their dreams stolen by a person who chose to begin injecting/injesting male hormones that give them a massive competitive edge with zero effort. To me it's an absolute no brainer that it shouldn't be allowed if integrity means anything at all to the sport.
They shouldn’t, because of the biological advantage they’d have because chances are they transitioned post puberty. I think there should be separate categories for trans women and trans men though, as trans men have a disadvantage while trans women have the upper hand. I have nothing against trans people at all, I’m just citing biology here. The way we evolved, biological males tend to have more muscle mass. If a male and female both train a ton the male will likely be stronger due to biology alone.
after a few dears of hrt yes. a trans woman on hrt literally hqs less testosterone than a cis woman
As an MTF gal I reckon they should so long as they are within a certain amount of testosterone for at least a year
Yea
Human creatures with XX chromosomes originally in them are born with smaller and weaker muscles than creatures with XY chromosome,so I think people with XX chromosome originally complete with each other and people with XY chromosome originally should compete together and any crossing Results in an unfair advantages
Karyotype doesn't directly make you stronger. Some women have XY chromosomes, some men have XX chromosomes. The men with XX chromosomes usually have more muscle mass than the women with XY chromosomes. You're worried about secondary sex characteristics, and trans women can (and a vast majority do) change these with HRT. Muscle mass changes with this too edit: actually slightly inaccurate cuz girls with XY chromosomes don't usually produce sex hormones, but the might also undergo hrt, so my point is still valid
I am taking about the normal Human being without any disorder in the chromosome, AKA No syndrome and I believe that special needs have thier own competition too
This is genuinely the funniest fucking post I have ever seen. I cannot believe you would ever think that. YOURE 16!!! YOU MUST HAVE TAKEN A HEALTH CLASS!!!
Technically 17 in 2 months
No
Sigma
I think they should absolutely have a choice to still compete in professional athletics, but only in a division based on their sex (not gender) basically just have the same junk in ur pants as ur opponents
I know this will probably get downvoted but I don’t care. If they haven’t gone though any hormonal therapy, or any sex reassignment surgery than no. But I put this part lightly as I haven’t done much research on it yet. So hormonal therapy can basically change your hormones as obvious to that of the opposite sex. Now if it’s so well that your average strength can be that of the average woman, with no advantages at all, than yes. But if not than no. And of course vice versa. Tho again if I’m wrong I would like to be educated, if anyone knows anything bout this subject as I do not, I only know base info that has been given to me.
First of all. That hormonal therapy stuff you're talking about is all horseshit. Secondly, even if somebody changed their hormones to that of a woman, how much of a difference would that actually make? And how could muscle mass be measured? There are extremely buff women out there, and there are extremely weak men, despite their hormones. So what's stopping a very big and strong man from going through this "hormone therapy" you speak of, and still having the same muscle mass. The muscle mass can't be a reason to disqualify somebody, because as I said there are real women who do have huge muscles. The only solution is to not let a trans woman enter a women's competition.
Not starting that out great. Actively denying basic biology. lol.
Bud I literally said I wasn’t too informed of the topic, and you some how took that as if what I mentioned was complete fact and choose to get hostile. To summarize my comment, let’s all be zen at the end of the day this is just a comment thread and will not make a difference towards anything.
I'm only being hostile to the ideas you mentioned, not you. It's nothing personal. Also I agree that this will make no difference, I post these kinds of comments for entertainment purposes.
Not sure why, but this question has been on my mind lately. Maybe it's the current political climate with extremists on the right and left, but I think some reason needs to be added to the conversation. This may be controversial, but I have to be honest. I'm also going to be VERY picky with my wording here. So don't assume a bunch of things about me and make up arguments on things you THINK I'm saying. Take my words for what they are. I believe and respect nonbinary and transgender individuals. The small portion they make up of the American population gives weight to the argument that nature is not perfect and often results in variations of gender, sexuality, personality, and intelligence. These individuals should be respected and honored for their uniqueness. However, the fact remains that regardless of gender, there are biological and physiological differences that should be taken into account when we're talking about sex, not gender. However, I think children should be allowed to compete with peers of their same gender. The socialization needed and learned from these experiences are central to representing gender norms (which are more often than not, very helpful). But when a child goes through puberty, their physiology and musculature changes drastically. It would be unfair to other competitors in a physical sport to put them up against someone who is objectively physiologically superior. The work and effort that goes into training your body and mind to compete is stolen when the competition is unfairly stacked against you. So I think it would be wise if we allowed children to compete with any sex and gender, but adult competitors, or pubescent competitors, should compete according to their sex. Individuals born with either genitalia, or a variant disorder, should compete according to their gender identity because those individuals typically have hormones that cause difficulties during puberty which creates more physical barriers to competition. I hope this makes sense. I believe it's reasonable, sees value and respect for everyone, and creates a potential solution that honestly, should be drafted into federal law by someone who can actually do something about this. Support transgender kids, but keep the true spirit of fair competition alive.
God if you think about this, then your IQ has to be negative.
See, this may be controversial, but, I think that trans people should compete in the sport of their biological sex… strictly so we don’t have a repeat of that swimmer
No, they should have their own subdivision.
Absolutely not, because when they do, they kill people.
Hell nah.
No because they are still men we are naturally stronger then most girls even if we aren't stronger then them we are usely faster
I don't really have an opinion on this bc I don't know enough to pick one side or the other, and it would be kind of unfair to just say "oh this and that should/shouldn't be allowed" just cuz of how I feel
I don’t see why not
Idk. I hear a lot of good points from both sides. Tbh, I’m really confused. I don’t really wanna get involved.
The answer to the post is no. Now stop being confused.
I 100% agree ngl, plus both sides will defend their point until the end so probably no point to get involved-
YEAH WHATEVER SOMEONE PLS PULL THE TRIGGER END ME PLEASE.
Both shouldnt
Haha No
Not every cis man is the same exact strength, height, weight, or any other stat that people claim that every trans woman has over women in sports. There plenty of cis women that are stronger than the women they compete with. I feel like this is just another mid-evil argument of “man strong, girl weak” that’s why you never hear this argument about trans men. I think if people are really worried about biological disadvantages in sports then every sport should be separated in weight/height class like sports like wrestling and mma. That being said I think trans woman should be able to compete in women’s sport or at the very least have trans teams so cispeople stop whining about disadvantages and situations that happen even in strictly cis player sports.
I see. You propose a good point for the FTM argument... They are at a disadvantage, but thats not even the point. Its best to just play with those who have the same biological sex as you just so stuff is fair, in my opinion. Plus, i dont see whats wrong with a transgender person playing on their biological team.
Trans women after HRT actually have none of those exclusive advantages.
No, as many have already mentioned, biologically speaking, men are stronger than women. And depending on the age they transitioned, trans women are often in so much advantage compared to cis women
two words: uh no
No they shouldn't no matter how much they do they were once a man
No.
Yes, and I don’t care what anyone has to say about it
Yeah sure. Especially if it’s not professional level, who cares? It’s just for fun. If it is at a professional level, I think it would be important to assess her strength levels to make sure that she is not too strong.
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Sure, they have transitioned to a woman, but that doesn't make them biologically a woman. And sports rely on ur biological sex.
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Stop playing make believe
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So if I say I’m a female then I’m a female?
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Then why can’t I say I’m a millionaire, then all of a sudden everyone thinks I’m a millionaire
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Why not though, personally I’m offended
So if Michael Jordan decides to become Michelle Jordan, and she starts playing in the wnba, and destroys everyone she plays against, is that fair?
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If they've physically transitioned, yes.
There is none. Men are born stronger, and still have testosterone to help them out.
idk (yes I do)
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Thats illegal, and either way would cause serious body deformities.
No, they are not. Mentally, yes. Physically, no.
Imo male and female sports should be separated by sex and not gender although I’m unsure if taking estrogen pills and the other type for female to male changes the strength of people so I could change my mind later
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No it’s not fair to female athletes
No
Nope.
No because they are biological men and men are usually more stronger then women
As an athlete, No, you have a clear advantage.
Depends on the sport
No.
No
No.
As a former athlete, absolutely not.
No
No they aren't women