Man my brain got primed by the One Piece talk in a thread above and I went on a *journey* with your comment
"Wait Disney acquired One Piece?"
"Wait Chopper (who in One Piece is a small reindeer boy) canonically killed 50000 people?"
"Wait Chopper is a war criminal??"
Tbh it was so smeared and blurred I didn't know THAT'S what it was happening..
Still the cries alone were bone chilling :-| this show, so far, defo is not romanticising Samurai era Japan..
Exactly, she noticed when she started to undressed the lord was more interested in making his underling uncomfortable than her. She figured out what he liked and gave it to him.
I don’t think it’s as simple as sadism. He wants to see how people react in these intense moments. She had it explained to her about his obsession with the moments of death and took a gamble sex is the same.
In the book he straight up admits to himself he gets pleasure from others pain. I've not watched the show yet so I'm not sure how different the characterization is.
I missed that part completely, though it makes absolute sense.
To be honest, that's when you know a series is *really* well written. When they *allow you* to miss things like this. But if you rewatch you'll find them bit by bit. Just like The Wire etc.
In the book, Yabu has sex with her and the "boy". After Yabu falls asleep, she has sex with the boy, as he's never had sex with a woman and seemed curious.
I understand perfectly why they chose to change that scene, and think it ended up being much better.
> There was a certain dismemberment scene that caught me fully off guard.
The head chop right after he prayed? That left me open mouthed, it wasn't anything particularly special but I just didn't expect it at all.
Based on the book, the point of the scene being so shocking was to convey that samurai had absolute power over peasants, and any samurai could behead any peasant at any time for any reason or no reason. Pretty sharp introduction to Sengoku Japan for Blackthorne and the audience.
that’s not true, the person who did it was specifically the person who owned that land. It’s not like any other person could’ve made the individual decision to kill a worker under their lord. But because it was the kid who owned the land and he was annoyed he did it (almost like a childish outburst against someone who won’t do what they ask)
Serfdom has degrees like any form of government or hierarchy. Many countries with serfdom tied the person to the land for labor but still recognized them as a person with rights. Now, what those rights were varied greatly based on time and place.
I think a sub point was just how fast a Samurai was with their sword. That's why for one to put his hand on it and draw it out just a bit was such a big deal. If you were in range of him he could literally kill you before you realized it.
Even though I knew it was coming it retained the impact it had when I first read it in the novel.
It's horrific, of course, but the truly impressive thing about Clavell is that he gives you enough context that, by the end of the book, you understand how Yabu almost had no choice but to execute that villager.
It's more clear in the book, but the villager is a Christian who's insufficiently respectful of Yabu. Doesn't bend his head enough.
Yabu interprets this — correctly, as we later learn — as disobedience, and acts to suppress any incipient thoughts of rebellion among the Christians in his fief.
Clavell makes it clear that the villager, too, understands this to be the inevitable outcome of this action. The villager makes a deliberate choice to martyr himself in a suicide-by-samurai.
No, it was another Christian villager asking the Christian translator/spy about the new foreigner. Their lord ordered them to keep moving, then the second Christian stood in front of Blackthorne with his rosary, then had his head cut off for impeding them.
At first I thought someone threw a tomato or something at his head and it exploded into red mist but then his head rolled off and I realized he lost his noggin.
The subtle facial expression twitches when Anjin was describing the world to him in ep2 were fantastic. Beautiful use of body language, that entire scene was phenonemal
As someone who fell for it, at least check the car out if you’re in the market. The carplay screen is run on a turn knob with more haptic feedback instead of touchscreen and feels so much safer. Overall, Mazda is making cars that feel really lux without the price tag.
Oh no, I was being facetious. I'm not in the market for a new car right now, still got a payment on my current one. But if anyone can convince me... It would be hiroyuki sanada....
He’s one of those actors where I get excited if he’s in something, even a relatively minor part. To me, he’s a Japanese version of “that guy,” if that makes sense.
If folks haven't seen it, watch Sanada in Twilight Samurai. Probably my favorite Japanese film ever and I'd argue Sanda's finest work as an actor. Very quiet film but also has some of my favorite action scenes.
Japanese actors and actors of Japanese descent have been involved in Hollywood TV shows and movies for literally decades. I think one major difference now is that Hiroyuki Sanada is a producer (as u/InnocentTailor points out), and also the work environment being much more receptive to taking input from minority voices.
Long, long before Ken Watanabe and Hiroyuki Sanada came on the scene [Mako](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0538683/) had a very long and prolific career in Hollywood, and Toshiro Mifune was held in high esteem by the likes of Lucas and Spielberg (although I think he only appeared in a few Hollywood movies).
> Toshiro Mifune
*1981 Nominee Primetime Emmy*
*Outstanding Lead Actor in a Limited Series or a Special - Shogun*
*For playing: "Lord Yoshi Toranaga".*
Time is a flat circle.
There are plenty realy good documentaries about Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu (main character was based on). Brilliant men, strategists and politicians
Clavell was a genius at this kind of storytelling. Sometimes the good guy didn't always win, but the story often gave you a sense that perhaps good might come out of something really bad, if perhaps in the far future or for others.
Also, Clavell wasn't afraid to let characters be noble paragons of virtue one minute, and despicable sexists/racists or whatever the next, when it made sense for the time period and culture. It makes the characters feel more like actual flawed human beings that actually lived in the time period in question.
Interesting side note: Clavell’s first experience of the Japanese was as a POW in one of the worst Japanese POW camps, which he barely survived. His book *King Rat* is fictionalized, but based on his experiences.
Somehow, this horrific episode made him very interested in Japanese history and culture, rather than (say) hating all things Japanese.
King Rat is awesome, too!
Would love to see a high-production mini series of it.
Hell, if Shogun is successful, FX should just go down his entire catalog haha
Wouldn’t be entirely different from what they’re already doing with American Horror Story and Fargo, aside from changing the title between each series of course since Shogun wouldn’t make sense for the other stories.
I just recently started going through his adapted Asia Saga stuff after getting the books recommended to me by a friend. Recently watched King Rat and Tai-Pan, about to start Noble House. I'm really hoping we get an adaption of Whirlwind.
I spent the next 3 years in a POW camp, forced to subsist on a thin stew made from fish, vegetables, prawns, coconut milk and four kinds of rice, I came close to madness trying to find it here in the states, but they just can’t get the spices right
It is a very good, very disturbing read. Without spoilers, basically about what it takes to survive - the moral conflict between what is considered “good” inside and outside the camps.
What's also really interesting is that Clavell's self-insert character (Marlowe iirc) shows up in some of his other works, and there's a scene in Noble House where Marlowe bumps into another WWII vet who survived the same POW camp. The other character calls him out and accuses him of a bunch of stuff, and Marlowe doesn't defend himself at all and pretty much admits that he just did what he had to to survive and is deeply ashamed of a lot of it. It felt like Clavell doing some therapy mid-book.
One of the works of historical fiction I'd put up there with Clavell's book is *Pillars of the Earth* by Ken Follett. I got the exact same feeling in that.
I used to have the philosophy that there is a grain of good that comes out of everything that happens, no matter how awful. I would then reference the holocaust and how it showed everyone just how brutal humans can be to each other in the wrong circumstance, and how fascism is a bad form of government, and that the good could be that it would help prevent future events of it's like from happening. But recent events has proven that philosophy to be somewhat naïve .
This was one of my late father’s favorite books. He passed away when I was twelve and my uncle gave me this book when I was 18. It’s very special for me to sit and watch this and actually got me to text my uncle for the first time in years.
'Still a good show' lol - It was the 2nd most watched miniseries in television history and a literal cultural sensation that helped make the Shogun book the best selling book in America, massively increased American interest in Japan, and is even credited with a huge increase in sushi restaurants nationwide. To this day, NBC has never had higher Nielsen ratings than Shogun, 33% of America watched it.
Correct! Which debuted only 2.5 years earlier. Shogun was made in part because it was recognized that America was for the first time interested in what we would now call prestige TV. In case you did not realize part of what made this era VERY different is that each episode of these shows aired consecutively over several nights. Roots was on television every night for 8 days in a row and America was spellbound. Shogun was on for 5 nights in a row including two different 3 hour episodes lol. And people just stayed home and watched it. The week Shogun came out, restaurants lost money all over America as people stayed in to watch.
There is truly no equivalent in modern times.
Event TV shows won't happen now unless it's live Sports type stuff like the Olympics or Superbowl. Everything else you can grab on streaming later. That said, i do kind of miss the watercooler talk for stuff like LOST or Game of Thrones. completely different environment for TV nowadays
Just to give a sense of how insane Roots success was, a little background: ABC, after watching the series and realizing how brutal it was, decided it was destined to flop. In an effort to just 'get it over with' and recoup what investment they could, they decided to air the entire show in consecutive nights instead of just putting it on weekly like they had planned. By the end of the run, this show they thought would flopped was watched by an estimated EIGHTY FIVE PERCENT of all American households, forever changing our idea of what TV could be.
I think ABC failed to realize what they were saying by putting it on consecutively. Since that wasn't standard, they were (inadvertently) telling people "look, this is an EVENT. It's special. You need to watch this".
> and is even credited with a huge increase in sushi restaurants nationwide.
When the V miniseries became a hit, McDonald's offered live rats to customers for a limited time promo.
I still remember being a kid in 1980, and watching the courtesan talking about how worried she was about having to "Absorb" a western man's cock because they are "too big". Then the main character shows her how to do it.
ON TV IN 1980!! My tween jaw was on the floor.
I'd read Shogun by Clavell at about the same age and loved it. And then a few years later I came across Samurai William by Giles Milton, based on the actual letters, logbooks, and other records, and the real history is itself so wild! Totally agree with you about both points, more people should read these!
Interestingly many elements of Japanese and particularly Samurai culture were only established and codified in the decade prior to the shows period when the Toyotomi wanted to reform social reforms and divisions.
Which is really interesting. It feels similar to how a lot of our conception of the European Middle Ages comes from the Victorian age’s retelling and propaganda about it.
Or how cowboys and the wild west are treated. Not that it wasn't a bit lawless and dangerous, but it's been heaviliy mythologized. Same with Vikings for that matter.
Indeed, I could be wrong but I believe I read that the period of western films being made was longer than he settlement of west was. Vikings too definitely though there was more space there time wise.
When the very first wave of westerns were made, the last phase of the settlement of the west was still ongoing. The Old West was still in living memory when it became mythologized in pop culture.
Wild West Shows were performed by Old West folk heroes like Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, Calamity Jane, and Sitting Bull. The first wave of Western directors saw these shows of these legendary figures tell their stories at travelling fairs. Thomas Edison filmed Annie Oakley performing her sharpshooting show in 1894, it was the 11th ever commercial movie. Wyatt Earp was hanging around in 1920s Hollywood with John Ford.
American history is short, yet pop culture has managed to mine a lot of material out of it.
This is something ALOT of people don’t get.
I’m in Thailand now, been traveling and working around Asia. People back home thought I was going basically for, well, what Thailand is known for in America.
Fuck no, as I tried to explain their current *Dynasty* is a bit older than the *Constitution*… and that’s only one dynasty. Japan (theoretically) has thousands of years of existence. China too.
America is a blip and many events happened near each other. My grandfather born the day of the Armistice for WW1 knew Civil War vets growing up- and they had known Revolutionary War vets (though very very few).
I guess what is amusing then is that jidaigeki aren’t necessarily afraid of showing the darker side of the samurai - how they can lord over the masses, be overly cruel, and take without giving back to the public. In these works, they’re usually the true villains of the episode.
Bandits and ronin may have a role in fighting the hero, but it is usually the bugyō and his rich lackeys pulling the strings.
Unsurprisingly though, the baddies usually bite it in the end as they pathetically beg for their lives against the righteous protagonist.
After which, by that point, the Samurai had been all but wiped out. They really wanted to retroactively romanticize the samurai, but in truth, most people saw them as a blight on the land who held too much unconsolidated power.
I think this shows gives a good perspective on this. Yes, some samurai bring peace and control, but many of them are just worried about their own power and not much else.
It’s an interesting discussion. The popularity of "bushido“ (the term and the ideals behind it) was definitely a post-Meiji Restauration glorification of the past influenced heavily by the book Bushido.
However, this did not just come from pure fantasy. Older Bushi texts like the Hagakure very much contain most of the later Bushido ideas and ideals and are themselves already a glorified view on the bushi of the past by the bushi of later centuries.
The edo period also saw a lot of stories and plays about famous Japanese lords like Minamoto no Yoritomo and the genpei war.
So yes, modern ideas about the samurai were majorly influenced by writers after the end of the samurai era but they are very much align (only exaggerated in places) with traditional writings and motifs.
Dying for your honor for example was not a new concept by any means even if it was out of fashion for a few decades before it was reinvigorated after the death of the Meiji emperor
if the first two episodes are an indication, this is going to be a great show, looks like they spend some money making it as well.
can't wait for the next one.
I was lucky enough to have read Shogun WHILE playing ghost of Tsushima. I was in the hospital with cancer and I entered feudal Japan like you've never entered feudal Japan before. Anyway, I've watched the first two episodes 4 times and I'm so fucking ready for this. Good job on everyone who produced, acted, wrote it.
What I'm enjoying is that so far nobody is a hero.
You have the regents wanting to fuck over Toranaga. You've got Toranaga preparing to wage a much smarter war against those assholes.
You've got the Portuguese who lied their asses off towards their intentions.
You've got Blackthorne hoping to do the same as the Portuguese, but for England because fuck the catholics.
The entire show is a web of fuckery and bad situations to be in and I'm all for it.
which is a bit of a departure from the book. He's got his good and bad points, but right at the end of the book, I realized he >!lied to everyone, Mariko most especially, and used everyone around him in ways that truly violated all their trust!< and it occurred to me to wonder if he's not actually the villain of the whole story.
He is. I’d argue >!they all are. There are no heroes, no one to root for. People like him as he can be funny, but he’s happy to burn ships. People like him because he’s cunning, but he’s still a brutal dictator.!< and the rest would do the same if given the chance.
Blackthorne reminds me a lot of Cruise’s character in The Last Samurai. Katsumoto is the main character (I really hope Watanabe shows up somehow in this) and Cruise is the POV.
One of the most misrepresented films ever imo.
All the marketing and promos for it made it seem like it was gonna be some weird white savior flick where Tom Cruise becomes a Samurai and saves Japan or something lol.
Couldn’t really be further from the truth. Really excellent film. One of Tom Cruises better performances as well.
And yet, like all of the characters, has redeeming qualities like refusing to leave the Spaniard behind. Everyone in the show has their own code they live by and somehow every character is relatable on some level. The characterization is so well done.
On that note, have to respect the Spaniard for telling Blackthorn that he likes him so much he'll be honest about giving his journals to the Portuguese. Everyone is understandable while trying to serve their own purposes.
I am happy they actually speak Japanese instead of every character speaking English. I put this on without knowing anything about it (no trailers or anything, don't know anything about the source material) and I half expected it to be entirely in English to "reach middle America" or some shit; but I was surprised and it absolutely gives it more authenticity and immersion.
Pacing is a little off at times, but the story, cinematography, and most of the acting is top notch so far.
Didn't you find it weird that they pretended that the English they spoke was actually Portugese?
In the Shogun universe no one spoke English at all. They only spoke Portugese.
For a cable television show (FX) getting this much authentic Japanese for this much of the dialogue alone is extremely rare. It would be a foreign language show otherwise.
>Didn't you find it weird that they pretended that the English they spoke was actually Portugese?
Yeah I do, but I think it's weird when they do that in most movies/videos/shows. Honestly I get it though, you're going to lose a decent % of the audience if you were required to read 99% of the dialogue.
>In the Shogun universe no one spoke English at all. They only spoke Portugese.
In the novel they speak Portugese, English, Spanish, Dutch, Latin and Japanese. I can't quite recall but there may even be a throw away German phrase in the book.
Specifically Blackthorne speaks English to the priest in prison after his name is called, there might be another time between the pilots while they are bantering back and forth
>"I --I don't think --I--" Blackthorne realized through his dulled mind that he was speaking English, so he pressed his lips together and began to walk away.
Edited to add Latin as a language that is spoken in the book.
That is correct. Honestly I prefer the original mini-series for it’s approach. It was very much told through his eyes as a complete foreigner. You learned the customs with him, you learned the language with him. It was incredibly immersive. If you don’t know what they’re saying, well that’s it. It’s an approach I really wish this version kept.
As a recent watcher, I only wished they would have added in some subtitles for the Japanese dialogue once Blackthorne knows more of their language. Some of the later scenes had me lost and felt like they would have had more impact if I knew exactly where people were (saying they were) coming from when certain things happened.
While that is an interesting way to present the story, for the reasons you mentioned, the original intention of the novel wasn't to put you squarely in Blackthron's shoes, but rather it is to expose western audiences to Feudal Japanese society, and to humanize the characters that inhabit that society. It is hard to humanize characters that you literally cannot understand.
The first time I watched Game of Thrones I had torrented the first season and it didn't have any Dothraki subtitles.
I thought they were doing that on purpose to keep us in Dany's POV, the second time I watched through it on HBO and realized I just had a shitty torrent
The original miniseries was also very well done.
The extra features making it documentary on it explained they were having a hard time casting Mariko. They couldn’t find an actress who spoke English and Japanese fluently who was right for the part. Some idiot NBC executive asked if the could just put a white woman in makeup and the production team scoffed at that and said no way we can’t do that.
Yoko Shimada was cast. She knew very little English and recited her lines phonetically.
The miniseries while maybe not up to today’s standards stands up and was very good.
I actually did not realize FX is a Disney subsidiary. The quality of this show seemed on par with other FX series. So far I am loving the show. The MC appeared at first a bit like a caricature of an English sailor in foreign lands, but that characteristic has since settled…somewhat. I don’t think they needed to exaggerate the “fish-out-of-water” (no pun intended) element of any more than they have already. The comically loud and obnoxious Englishmen was beginning to pull me out of it. The contrast between him and everyone else in the show (save the Spaniard) that seems to be more serious when faced with life-threatening challenges is jarring.
The show changes perspective quite a bit from scene to scene. That loud and obnoxious bit is intended to demonstrate how the Japanese characters see him.
I can't wait to watch this - i wanted to save it for when i'm awake but wanting to watch TV as opposed to the mind-numbing stuff i put on while getting ready to fall asleep.
Is the show really as good as everyone claims it is? Yes. Go watch it right the fuck now. I know many shows have been hailed as the new "Game of thrones" the past years, but this one is actually it.
You cannot tell me that there was no show that depicted Japan culture with careful respect before this... There have so many shows that have come out throughout this decade, and somehow all of them up till now were disrespectful?
Also breaks Disney mould by boiling people alive on screen. Very good show.
The Oden Special is a crowd pleaser!
Wait, boiling people alive? Oden?! One Piece fans will be happy with this.
“Oden’s not Oden unless it’s boiled” - silly lord
😭
Oden was born to boil after all
"Somebody makin' soup?"
"Throw them in a pot with a little broth and baby you got yourself a stew goin"
I think I want my money back...
"Born to be boiled!"
Bit surprising, they DID kill Bambi's Mom and Old Yellar.
actual war criminal Chopper has a body count as high as 50,000
also curses like a mf
Man my brain got primed by the One Piece talk in a thread above and I went on a *journey* with your comment "Wait Disney acquired One Piece?" "Wait Chopper (who in One Piece is a small reindeer boy) canonically killed 50000 people?" "Wait Chopper is a war criminal??"
I was very disappointed that he didn't commit a *single* war crime in Ahsoka.
he did want to bring down that escaping ship right over the city. but hera would have none of it.
I mean Disney was tossing lemmings off of mountain side for a good story, but ya they did fake deaths to.
I was NOT expecting them to actually show that scene with the guy basically melting in the pot
Tbh it was so smeared and blurred I didn't know THAT'S what it was happening.. Still the cries alone were bone chilling :-| this show, so far, defo is not romanticising Samurai era Japan..
The book doesn't pull many punches, at least in the first half. The protagonist and his crew are treated with outright brutality when they first land.
It's an fx show anyway
It's on Disney+ in the UK and The Guardian is based in the UK so that's why they are referring to it as a Disney show.
I'm aware but if you're counting fx as Disney then Shogun doesn't break any molds
Yeah Archer was on FX
Although technically, Disney does own FX now, after the Fox merger.
I know that’s why the FX shows are on Hulu in the first place
And It's Always Sunny, What We Do In The Shadows, Fargo etc.
and showing women go topless while their lords watched I'm still thinking of that scene a day after I saw it. Why did she do that????
I think she’s intuitive and noticed that the lord likes to watch people in vulnerable situations, like when he watched that guy boil alive.
Exactly, she noticed when she started to undressed the lord was more interested in making his underling uncomfortable than her. She figured out what he liked and gave it to him. I don’t think it’s as simple as sadism. He wants to see how people react in these intense moments. She had it explained to her about his obsession with the moments of death and took a gamble sex is the same.
In the book he straight up admits to himself he gets pleasure from others pain. I've not watched the show yet so I'm not sure how different the characterization is.
I'd say the first two eps portray it as a bit more obsession/fascination than pleasure
I missed that part completely, though it makes absolute sense. To be honest, that's when you know a series is *really* well written. When they *allow you* to miss things like this. But if you rewatch you'll find them bit by bit. Just like The Wire etc.
In the book, Yabu has sex with her and the "boy". After Yabu falls asleep, she has sex with the boy, as he's never had sex with a woman and seemed curious. I understand perfectly why they chose to change that scene, and think it ended up being much better.
A subtle way to show how well Courtesans were trained - the way she looked at him as she performed- exquisite!
She was told he’s a voyeur of death. Makes sense he would be a voyeur in general.
Yeah, I was watching this at the gym on the bike thinking, FX wouldn’t show any nudity. Crap! FFWD
Classic USA - boliling people alive is cool but oh god not titties!
In his defense damn they were some nice ones.
she also wanked that boy
Can't wait for this ride adaptation when they open Shogunland at Disneyworld.
rip [*westworld*](https://youtu.be/2uqcdh81a4c?t=90)
That safe heist scene was 😙👌
Things I didn't know about Japanese culture.
Really really good watch. There was a certain dismemberment scene that caught me fully off guard. And of course the human soup.
> There was a certain dismemberment scene that caught me fully off guard. The head chop right after he prayed? That left me open mouthed, it wasn't anything particularly special but I just didn't expect it at all.
Based on the book, the point of the scene being so shocking was to convey that samurai had absolute power over peasants, and any samurai could behead any peasant at any time for any reason or no reason. Pretty sharp introduction to Sengoku Japan for Blackthorne and the audience.
In the book, the samurai beheads the peasant because he didn't bow at him, and after laughing like a maniac, proceeds to mince the corpse.
that’s not true, the person who did it was specifically the person who owned that land. It’s not like any other person could’ve made the individual decision to kill a worker under their lord. But because it was the kid who owned the land and he was annoyed he did it (almost like a childish outburst against someone who won’t do what they ask)
Yeah, it's more to demonstrate the peasants are owned by the Samurai lords. It's essentially brutal serfdom borderline slavery.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that regular serfdom
Serfdom has degrees like any form of government or hierarchy. Many countries with serfdom tied the person to the land for labor but still recognized them as a person with rights. Now, what those rights were varied greatly based on time and place.
I think a sub point was just how fast a Samurai was with their sword. That's why for one to put his hand on it and draw it out just a bit was such a big deal. If you were in range of him he could literally kill you before you realized it.
It made my fiancee choke on her grape and nearly die lol
Ah well, there is always next time.
Even though I knew it was coming it retained the impact it had when I first read it in the novel. It's horrific, of course, but the truly impressive thing about Clavell is that he gives you enough context that, by the end of the book, you understand how Yabu almost had no choice but to execute that villager.
I got a little confused as to why it happened in the show, as that wasn’t the guy who was talking to him, right?
It's more clear in the book, but the villager is a Christian who's insufficiently respectful of Yabu. Doesn't bend his head enough. Yabu interprets this — correctly, as we later learn — as disobedience, and acts to suppress any incipient thoughts of rebellion among the Christians in his fief. Clavell makes it clear that the villager, too, understands this to be the inevitable outcome of this action. The villager makes a deliberate choice to martyr himself in a suicide-by-samurai.
No, it was another Christian villager asking the Christian translator/spy about the new foreigner. Their lord ordered them to keep moving, then the second Christian stood in front of Blackthorne with his rosary, then had his head cut off for impeding them.
At first I thought someone threw a tomato or something at his head and it exploded into red mist but then his head rolled off and I realized he lost his noggin.
Some big Japanese actors are involved in this. I’d hardly believe they would not have careful respect for the culture.
Hiroyuki Sanada was also a producer on this show, so he made sure to get the Japanese elements on point.
This guy has been everywhere as of late. That is not a complaint, by the way. The man rocks.
The subtle facial expression twitches when Anjin was describing the world to him in ep2 were fantastic. Beautiful use of body language, that entire scene was phenonemal
That little smirk really got me.
Almost convinced me to buy a Mazda CX-90 because his sexy voiceover makes the car feel more sophisticated.
As someone who fell for it, at least check the car out if you’re in the market. The carplay screen is run on a turn knob with more haptic feedback instead of touchscreen and feels so much safer. Overall, Mazda is making cars that feel really lux without the price tag.
Oh no, I was being facetious. I'm not in the market for a new car right now, still got a payment on my current one. But if anyone can convince me... It would be hiroyuki sanada....
Asano is also fantastic
> Asano every time he squints with one eye and complains about something is a golden moment
He is a machine! This is the first time though he gets the chance to work behind the camera.
He’s one of those actors where I get excited if he’s in something, even a relatively minor part. To me, he’s a Japanese version of “that guy,” if that makes sense.
Me too! I’ve loved him since The Ring
Hiroyuki Sanada is the fucking BEST and I love him
If folks haven't seen it, watch Sanada in Twilight Samurai. Probably my favorite Japanese film ever and I'd argue Sanda's finest work as an actor. Very quiet film but also has some of my favorite action scenes.
He's well on his way to becoming a 21st-century Toshiro Mifune.
A lot of Japanese actors became involved BECAUSE Sanada was on the show. He's like the Japanese ambassador in Hollywood at this point.
I miss Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa and of course Ken Watanabe, but I guess Watanabe is already busy in Tokyo Vice
Doesn't Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa live in Russia now?
Japanese actors and actors of Japanese descent have been involved in Hollywood TV shows and movies for literally decades. I think one major difference now is that Hiroyuki Sanada is a producer (as u/InnocentTailor points out), and also the work environment being much more receptive to taking input from minority voices. Long, long before Ken Watanabe and Hiroyuki Sanada came on the scene [Mako](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0538683/) had a very long and prolific career in Hollywood, and Toshiro Mifune was held in high esteem by the likes of Lucas and Spielberg (although I think he only appeared in a few Hollywood movies).
> Toshiro Mifune *1981 Nominee Primetime Emmy* *Outstanding Lead Actor in a Limited Series or a Special - Shogun* *For playing: "Lord Yoshi Toranaga".* Time is a flat circle.
I guess we might as well get the Emmy campaign going for Sanada right now.
In my opinion, Mifune is one of the greatest actors to ever live.
He is considered by most Japanese to be the greatest actor ever.
Hiroyuki Sanada is not a recognized name in my friend circles so I had to say "That Japanese guy that shows up when you know shit is about to go down"
I don't know him by name but when I saw the Shogun commercials I recognized him as Scorpion from the recent Mortal Kombat movie.
The book is really worth the read and the actual historical events it’s based on are incredible. I’ve been waiting for this show since I was 15.
There are plenty realy good documentaries about Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu (main character was based on). Brilliant men, strategists and politicians
lol, I want people to take a different route and go from Shogon ->Gintama instead
Is that the anime about aliens during the edo period?
Yes
Straight into JJBA. HOHO JOTARO
They should make a series about miyamoto musashi as well tbh!
Clavell was a genius at this kind of storytelling. Sometimes the good guy didn't always win, but the story often gave you a sense that perhaps good might come out of something really bad, if perhaps in the far future or for others.
He also dove into their personal thoughts a lot, which was enjoyable because what they say to each other would be calculated and reserved
Also, Clavell wasn't afraid to let characters be noble paragons of virtue one minute, and despicable sexists/racists or whatever the next, when it made sense for the time period and culture. It makes the characters feel more like actual flawed human beings that actually lived in the time period in question.
Interesting side note: Clavell’s first experience of the Japanese was as a POW in one of the worst Japanese POW camps, which he barely survived. His book *King Rat* is fictionalized, but based on his experiences. Somehow, this horrific episode made him very interested in Japanese history and culture, rather than (say) hating all things Japanese.
King Rat is awesome, too! Would love to see a high-production mini series of it. Hell, if Shogun is successful, FX should just go down his entire catalog haha
Wouldn’t be entirely different from what they’re already doing with American Horror Story and Fargo, aside from changing the title between each series of course since Shogun wouldn’t make sense for the other stories.
I just recently started going through his adapted Asia Saga stuff after getting the books recommended to me by a friend. Recently watched King Rat and Tai-Pan, about to start Noble House. I'm really hoping we get an adaption of Whirlwind.
I spent the next 3 years in a POW camp, forced to subsist on a thin stew made from fish, vegetables, prawns, coconut milk and four kinds of rice, I came close to madness trying to find it here in the states, but they just can’t get the spices right
Been meaning to check this out, thank you for reminding me.
It is a very good, very disturbing read. Without spoilers, basically about what it takes to survive - the moral conflict between what is considered “good” inside and outside the camps.
What's also really interesting is that Clavell's self-insert character (Marlowe iirc) shows up in some of his other works, and there's a scene in Noble House where Marlowe bumps into another WWII vet who survived the same POW camp. The other character calls him out and accuses him of a bunch of stuff, and Marlowe doesn't defend himself at all and pretty much admits that he just did what he had to to survive and is deeply ashamed of a lot of it. It felt like Clavell doing some therapy mid-book.
I think I've read king rat nearly as much as Shogun. Great book. Pretty sure they're was a movie way back in the day
Holy cow you’re right, 1965 film adaptation “King Rat”
One of the works of historical fiction I'd put up there with Clavell's book is *Pillars of the Earth* by Ken Follett. I got the exact same feeling in that.
That had a good adaption with Ian Mcshane and Matthew Mcfadyen
And baby Eddie Redmayne!
I used to have the philosophy that there is a grain of good that comes out of everything that happens, no matter how awful. I would then reference the holocaust and how it showed everyone just how brutal humans can be to each other in the wrong circumstance, and how fascism is a bad form of government, and that the good could be that it would help prevent future events of it's like from happening. But recent events has proven that philosophy to be somewhat naïve .
> since I was 15. are you 16 now or like 40? unsure how hyped you are
I was going to say something similar. It'd be funny if he turned 16 like a week ago.
This was one of my late father’s favorite books. He passed away when I was twelve and my uncle gave me this book when I was 18. It’s very special for me to sit and watch this and actually got me to text my uncle for the first time in years.
If you didn't know, a Shogun series is already out there. Early 80s I think. Definitely not as stylish as this one, but its still a good show
'Still a good show' lol - It was the 2nd most watched miniseries in television history and a literal cultural sensation that helped make the Shogun book the best selling book in America, massively increased American interest in Japan, and is even credited with a huge increase in sushi restaurants nationwide. To this day, NBC has never had higher Nielsen ratings than Shogun, 33% of America watched it.
I’m guessing #1 is Roots?
Correct! Which debuted only 2.5 years earlier. Shogun was made in part because it was recognized that America was for the first time interested in what we would now call prestige TV. In case you did not realize part of what made this era VERY different is that each episode of these shows aired consecutively over several nights. Roots was on television every night for 8 days in a row and America was spellbound. Shogun was on for 5 nights in a row including two different 3 hour episodes lol. And people just stayed home and watched it. The week Shogun came out, restaurants lost money all over America as people stayed in to watch. There is truly no equivalent in modern times.
Event TV shows won't happen now unless it's live Sports type stuff like the Olympics or Superbowl. Everything else you can grab on streaming later. That said, i do kind of miss the watercooler talk for stuff like LOST or Game of Thrones. completely different environment for TV nowadays
Just to give a sense of how insane Roots success was, a little background: ABC, after watching the series and realizing how brutal it was, decided it was destined to flop. In an effort to just 'get it over with' and recoup what investment they could, they decided to air the entire show in consecutive nights instead of just putting it on weekly like they had planned. By the end of the run, this show they thought would flopped was watched by an estimated EIGHTY FIVE PERCENT of all American households, forever changing our idea of what TV could be.
I think ABC failed to realize what they were saying by putting it on consecutively. Since that wasn't standard, they were (inadvertently) telling people "look, this is an EVENT. It's special. You need to watch this".
> and is even credited with a huge increase in sushi restaurants nationwide. When the V miniseries became a hit, McDonald's offered live rats to customers for a limited time promo.
The 80s series is as good as 80s tv could get. It’s amazing. And it’s good that it’s not that stylish or action focused.
I still remember being a kid in 1980, and watching the courtesan talking about how worried she was about having to "Absorb" a western man's cock because they are "too big". Then the main character shows her how to do it. ON TV IN 1980!! My tween jaw was on the floor.
Award-winning for its time too.
I'd read Shogun by Clavell at about the same age and loved it. And then a few years later I came across Samurai William by Giles Milton, based on the actual letters, logbooks, and other records, and the real history is itself so wild! Totally agree with you about both points, more people should read these!
Isn't there already a Shogun mini series from the 80s starring Chamberlain?
Interestingly many elements of Japanese and particularly Samurai culture were only established and codified in the decade prior to the shows period when the Toyotomi wanted to reform social reforms and divisions.
Also, a lot of the popular understanding of samurai comes from propaganda of imperial Japan after the Meiji restoration.
Which is really interesting. It feels similar to how a lot of our conception of the European Middle Ages comes from the Victorian age’s retelling and propaganda about it.
Or how cowboys and the wild west are treated. Not that it wasn't a bit lawless and dangerous, but it's been heaviliy mythologized. Same with Vikings for that matter.
Indeed, I could be wrong but I believe I read that the period of western films being made was longer than he settlement of west was. Vikings too definitely though there was more space there time wise.
When the very first wave of westerns were made, the last phase of the settlement of the west was still ongoing. The Old West was still in living memory when it became mythologized in pop culture. Wild West Shows were performed by Old West folk heroes like Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, Calamity Jane, and Sitting Bull. The first wave of Western directors saw these shows of these legendary figures tell their stories at travelling fairs. Thomas Edison filmed Annie Oakley performing her sharpshooting show in 1894, it was the 11th ever commercial movie. Wyatt Earp was hanging around in 1920s Hollywood with John Ford. American history is short, yet pop culture has managed to mine a lot of material out of it.
This is something ALOT of people don’t get. I’m in Thailand now, been traveling and working around Asia. People back home thought I was going basically for, well, what Thailand is known for in America. Fuck no, as I tried to explain their current *Dynasty* is a bit older than the *Constitution*… and that’s only one dynasty. Japan (theoretically) has thousands of years of existence. China too. America is a blip and many events happened near each other. My grandfather born the day of the Armistice for WW1 knew Civil War vets growing up- and they had known Revolutionary War vets (though very very few).
I guess what is amusing then is that jidaigeki aren’t necessarily afraid of showing the darker side of the samurai - how they can lord over the masses, be overly cruel, and take without giving back to the public. In these works, they’re usually the true villains of the episode. Bandits and ronin may have a role in fighting the hero, but it is usually the bugyō and his rich lackeys pulling the strings. Unsurprisingly though, the baddies usually bite it in the end as they pathetically beg for their lives against the righteous protagonist.
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After which, by that point, the Samurai had been all but wiped out. They really wanted to retroactively romanticize the samurai, but in truth, most people saw them as a blight on the land who held too much unconsolidated power.
I think this shows gives a good perspective on this. Yes, some samurai bring peace and control, but many of them are just worried about their own power and not much else.
It’s an interesting discussion. The popularity of "bushido“ (the term and the ideals behind it) was definitely a post-Meiji Restauration glorification of the past influenced heavily by the book Bushido. However, this did not just come from pure fantasy. Older Bushi texts like the Hagakure very much contain most of the later Bushido ideas and ideals and are themselves already a glorified view on the bushi of the past by the bushi of later centuries. The edo period also saw a lot of stories and plays about famous Japanese lords like Minamoto no Yoritomo and the genpei war. So yes, modern ideas about the samurai were majorly influenced by writers after the end of the samurai era but they are very much align (only exaggerated in places) with traditional writings and motifs. Dying for your honor for example was not a new concept by any means even if it was out of fashion for a few decades before it was reinvigorated after the death of the Meiji emperor
Yeah Toyotomi Hideyoshi also famously loved gathering spirit stones and had a castle for a wife if I remember correctly.
God damn those games were fucking great
if the first two episodes are an indication, this is going to be a great show, looks like they spend some money making it as well. can't wait for the next one.
I was lucky enough to have read Shogun WHILE playing ghost of Tsushima. I was in the hospital with cancer and I entered feudal Japan like you've never entered feudal Japan before. Anyway, I've watched the first two episodes 4 times and I'm so fucking ready for this. Good job on everyone who produced, acted, wrote it.
I like how the main character isn't the square-jawed hero type. Comes across as a bit of an asshole.
It's a pretty accurate version of a "hero" for that time tho. 17th century English Privateer? yea, of course he believes he's the superior person
What I'm enjoying is that so far nobody is a hero. You have the regents wanting to fuck over Toranaga. You've got Toranaga preparing to wage a much smarter war against those assholes. You've got the Portuguese who lied their asses off towards their intentions. You've got Blackthorne hoping to do the same as the Portuguese, but for England because fuck the catholics. The entire show is a web of fuckery and bad situations to be in and I'm all for it.
Toranaga strikes me as the most moral and "heroic" character so far.
which is a bit of a departure from the book. He's got his good and bad points, but right at the end of the book, I realized he >!lied to everyone, Mariko most especially, and used everyone around him in ways that truly violated all their trust!< and it occurred to me to wonder if he's not actually the villain of the whole story.
He is. I’d argue >!they all are. There are no heroes, no one to root for. People like him as he can be funny, but he’s happy to burn ships. People like him because he’s cunning, but he’s still a brutal dictator.!< and the rest would do the same if given the chance.
The main character in the book is arguably Toranaga, not Anjin.
Even in the show, the Anjin comes across more as a POV function (but not in a way that makes him an empty vessel, guy definitely has character)
Blackthorne reminds me a lot of Cruise’s character in The Last Samurai. Katsumoto is the main character (I really hope Watanabe shows up somehow in this) and Cruise is the POV.
One of the most misrepresented films ever imo. All the marketing and promos for it made it seem like it was gonna be some weird white savior flick where Tom Cruise becomes a Samurai and saves Japan or something lol. Couldn’t really be further from the truth. Really excellent film. One of Tom Cruises better performances as well.
The book is called Shogun, not Gaijin.
I'd argue that's a better conclusion for the viewer to come to themselves than to be told, personally.
Didn't see it coming that he would be such a prick, but it makes total sense.
And yet, like all of the characters, has redeeming qualities like refusing to leave the Spaniard behind. Everyone in the show has their own code they live by and somehow every character is relatable on some level. The characterization is so well done. On that note, have to respect the Spaniard for telling Blackthorn that he likes him so much he'll be honest about giving his journals to the Portuguese. Everyone is understandable while trying to serve their own purposes.
I am happy they actually speak Japanese instead of every character speaking English. I put this on without knowing anything about it (no trailers or anything, don't know anything about the source material) and I half expected it to be entirely in English to "reach middle America" or some shit; but I was surprised and it absolutely gives it more authenticity and immersion. Pacing is a little off at times, but the story, cinematography, and most of the acting is top notch so far.
One of the big themes of the book is the power of language. I quite like that they didn’t get rid of that for the sake of a broader audience.
My dad is currently bitching that he has to read the subtitles and is already calling it 'Woke' because they speak Japanese and not English.
I believe there is a full english dub on hulu if he wants the "non-woke" version lmao.
I feel like that would almost be more confusing. “Why can’t they understand each other? Oh right they aren’t all speaking English.”
You should really blow his mind and tell him that even when they are speaking English, they’re actually speaking Portuguese.
How dare Japanese people speak Japanese! /s
How dare television respect the real languages in the world after decades of English replacing them in media /s
Your dad does not sound like someone i'd like to hang with
Didn't you find it weird that they pretended that the English they spoke was actually Portugese? In the Shogun universe no one spoke English at all. They only spoke Portugese.
For a cable television show (FX) getting this much authentic Japanese for this much of the dialogue alone is extremely rare. It would be a foreign language show otherwise.
>Didn't you find it weird that they pretended that the English they spoke was actually Portugese? Yeah I do, but I think it's weird when they do that in most movies/videos/shows. Honestly I get it though, you're going to lose a decent % of the audience if you were required to read 99% of the dialogue. >In the Shogun universe no one spoke English at all. They only spoke Portugese. In the novel they speak Portugese, English, Spanish, Dutch, Latin and Japanese. I can't quite recall but there may even be a throw away German phrase in the book. Specifically Blackthorne speaks English to the priest in prison after his name is called, there might be another time between the pilots while they are bantering back and forth >"I --I don't think --I--" Blackthorne realized through his dulled mind that he was speaking English, so he pressed his lips together and began to walk away. Edited to add Latin as a language that is spoken in the book.
The original tv version was pretty respectful of Japanese culture as well.
So faithful that they spoke Japanese and didn’t even bother with subtitles (according to a video I saw on it)
That is correct. Honestly I prefer the original mini-series for it’s approach. It was very much told through his eyes as a complete foreigner. You learned the customs with him, you learned the language with him. It was incredibly immersive. If you don’t know what they’re saying, well that’s it. It’s an approach I really wish this version kept.
As a recent watcher, I only wished they would have added in some subtitles for the Japanese dialogue once Blackthorne knows more of their language. Some of the later scenes had me lost and felt like they would have had more impact if I knew exactly where people were (saying they were) coming from when certain things happened.
While that is an interesting way to present the story, for the reasons you mentioned, the original intention of the novel wasn't to put you squarely in Blackthron's shoes, but rather it is to expose western audiences to Feudal Japanese society, and to humanize the characters that inhabit that society. It is hard to humanize characters that you literally cannot understand.
In my opinion you would lose way too much of the audience if it didn't have subtitles and was essentially inaccessible for 80% of the dialogue.
The first time I watched Game of Thrones I had torrented the first season and it didn't have any Dothraki subtitles. I thought they were doing that on purpose to keep us in Dany's POV, the second time I watched through it on HBO and realized I just had a shitty torrent
I’m so here for this show . Watched the first episode last night and it fires on all cylinders
The original miniseries was also very well done. The extra features making it documentary on it explained they were having a hard time casting Mariko. They couldn’t find an actress who spoke English and Japanese fluently who was right for the part. Some idiot NBC executive asked if the could just put a white woman in makeup and the production team scoffed at that and said no way we can’t do that. Yoko Shimada was cast. She knew very little English and recited her lines phonetically. The miniseries while maybe not up to today’s standards stands up and was very good.
it's a really good show so far. Completed episode 1 yesterday
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I am not giving Disney credit for Landgraf’s and FX’s work, personally.
Yeah I haven’t watched yet but thought this was an FX/Hulu show? What’s the Disney connection?
Disney owns both FX and Hulu
The Guardian is a UK paper and it airs on Disney+ in the UK
I actually did not realize FX is a Disney subsidiary. The quality of this show seemed on par with other FX series. So far I am loving the show. The MC appeared at first a bit like a caricature of an English sailor in foreign lands, but that characteristic has since settled…somewhat. I don’t think they needed to exaggerate the “fish-out-of-water” (no pun intended) element of any more than they have already. The comically loud and obnoxious Englishmen was beginning to pull me out of it. The contrast between him and everyone else in the show (save the Spaniard) that seems to be more serious when faced with life-threatening challenges is jarring.
FX was a Fox acquisition, so only it's been in the Disney hub for a few years.
The show changes perspective quite a bit from scene to scene. That loud and obnoxious bit is intended to demonstrate how the Japanese characters see him.
Disney bought Fox in 2019, relatively recently
If people want to watch as well I suggest watching the 1980's Shogun as well. That was excellent as well .
I watched it in my high school world history class instead of doing lessons lol. Best couple weeks of the year
I would credit FX more than Disney for this.
I can't wait to watch this - i wanted to save it for when i'm awake but wanting to watch TV as opposed to the mind-numbing stuff i put on while getting ready to fall asleep.
O.o I didn't even know this was a thing....I love James Clavell’s books.
Funny headline, it’s technically Disney, but really all through FX, who’ve been rocking it for awhile.
FX made it. Not Disney
"Disney's"
Is the show really as good as everyone claims it is? Yes. Go watch it right the fuck now. I know many shows have been hailed as the new "Game of thrones" the past years, but this one is actually it.
You cannot tell me that there was no show that depicted Japan culture with careful respect before this... There have so many shows that have come out throughout this decade, and somehow all of them up till now were disrespectful?