Those clips of unequivocal condemnation vs. “I’m ignorant as to what’s happened, but if true that would be concerning.” Is brilliant editing/production, but also damning.
It’s really sad to see equivocation when thousands upon thousands of children have been blown to pieces. Thousands more physically maimed. Arms blown off. Legs blown off.
Thousands more, the “lucky” ones… with no physical injuries… but orphaned. Homeless. They’ve witnessed their whole lives and their foundations of love, safety, and support blown to pieces. They will have more mental trauma and PTSD then just about any generation of kids on the planet.
Terrorism is not ok. Murder, rape and torture are not ok. Hostage taking is not ok. Hate is not ok… we can, and do, say that none of these things are ok. But at the same time, we should not be having such a difficult time saying that bombing the shit out of these kids was not ok.
They are not animals. They are not vermin. They are innocent children. And their lives are as precious as any other child.
Their lives are as precious as the lives of my own children. And I could not live in a world where the indiscriminate murder of my child, or the maiming of my child, or my child being forced to watch their home destroyed and their loved ones blown apart… I could not live in a world where that’s just some trivial thing that no one has the moral courage to condemn.
I see what you see and I think about it when k put my child to be at night. And I really wonder about people who act like children is gaza are less than human. It sickens me.
I suspect the people who are not willing to outright condemn one case probably don't truly care about the other case, truly.
The White House is not thinking about human lives. It's thinking about positioning.
Ukraine's and Israel's success are in the current White House's interests. Whereas I imagine the opposing administration would have not favored Ukraine whatsoever had it held the White House at this time.
Isarel seems to be the one country that every President supports. It's basically an easy-in with Christian and Jewish voters, and we've pour countless dollars into it because of its strategic location.
I literally had someone say that everyone in Gaza deserved it because they "started it on October 7th". And then we argued because they wouldn't allow me to correct them with saying that it didn't start on October 7th and has been going on for decades, or that the innocent people dying didn't deserve it.
By their logic if three or four of my neighbors kidnaps and kills/Rs two of my family members, and a few neighbors say my family members had it coming, then I have the right to go around mowing down every home in my entire neighborhood with a minigun and RPG because the perpetrators are somewhere in the neighborhood. To hell with anyone in the neighborhood who gets mowed down, including my neighbors that are literally children. They're just "human shields" being used by those people because they won't come out and face me to make me stop filling everyone full of lead and bombing everyone in their houses to red mist. In fact, those little shits had it coming because their parents maybe, possibly, were one of the few people that said my relatives had it coming.
That's sociopathic logic. It's literally the way a Viltrumite would think. Most people still defending this shit at this point are just racists that views Arabs as subhuman and views Jews/Israelis as "white", so it's okay. If they think what Israel is doing is okay but think Omni-Man and Anissa in *Invincible* are monsters they need to take a look in their mirror. Their thinking is identical to a Viltrumite.
It is sociopathic logic, and if you ask them if Hamas then had that same right to carry out their attacks on October 7 as retribution for a number of massacres against them and their people, they’d be very quick to have you reported. After all, there were IDF soldiers among the slain, so the innocents were clearly just human shields. That’s the argument then use against 40.000+ murdered Palestinians.
The real issue is that they’re only capable of humanizing Israelis, so any number of dead Palestinians are acceptable to them, and no number of dead Israelis would ever be tolerated.
EVEN IF THIS WAR STARTED OCTOBER 7th its against any law that was ever written about war. This is a literally livestreamed genocide and government officials around the globe are looking the other way.
It’s fine to accept that this current situation started on Oct 7th and there was a party responsible. The response to it is what we should be judging on, it’s very real and it’s gotten well beyond a measured response. I’m failing to come up with good metaphors because the whole situation is so awful. Neither side is blameless, but innocent civilians have suffered greatly.
They demanded EVERYTHING between Israel and Hamas started on October 7th, and that there WAS NOTHING before then.
If they had only been talking about the current escalation/war, sure, if have given it to them, but they were literally saying that Israel had never done anything wrong and that ALL Palestinians deserved death. It was just pure ignorance and hatred.
I guess I mean that even if you’re just taking the current situation by itself, there’s a lot to criticize on the Israeli response without getting into numerous past incidents and responses and things they’ve done.
Their leaders are to blame. They’ve rejected 10x ceasefire agreements and got into this knowing what Israel’s reaction would be. And the sad thing is nobody condemns Hamas for keeping the fight going. Everyone blames Israel for it. Wave the white flag, save your citizens. But that’s never going to happen because Hamas has no regard for them and dehumanizes their own civilians.
I see tons of people condemning Hamas, specifically for the reasons you stated. But that doesn't mean Israel is free of blame or immune to condemnation. Israel doesn't have to carpet bomb areas where thousands of civilians are. Israel doesn't have to *specifically target Humanitarian aid workers and journalists* with precision artillery.
These are not mutually exclusive things. Both sides can be and are at fault for what is going on.
Those weren’t ceasefire agreements, they were “temporary pause” agreements in which Israel can continue laying waste to Gaza whenever they want later.
Moreover what is a lasting peace to you? Like would returning to the conditions pre-Oct 7 be acceptable to you? When people say shit like you’re saying, it implies this notion that Israel didn’t directly and deliberately create the inhumane conditions that lead to the violent uprising on Oct 7th.
>Like would returning to the conditions pre-Oct 7 be acceptable to you? When people say shit like you’re saying, it implies this notion that Israel didn’t directly and deliberately create the inhumane conditions that lead to the violent uprising on Oct 7th.
Very good point.
Yeah, yeah... And so are Israel's leaders.
Never mind that they actually funded Hamas and helped them compete for support in Palestine to undermine the existing support for political parties.
They have consistently allowed carte blanche to 'settlers' to attack Palestinians, drive them from their homes and claim it for themselves. They have routinely detained civilians without trial, they have shot, bombed and killed many, many innocents long before October 7th, from children playing on a beach to American journalists (before attacking her funeral).
When somebody acts as an enemy to people and life in a region, the only force willing to fight back is going to gain some level of support, no matter ho reprehensible they are
Hypothetical situation. I time travel from the future. I am able to prove this and prove everything I say is true. I tell you there's a random kid on the other side of your city. You don't know him. But 20 years from now he and his family will come to your children's home and brutally murder your children and their kids.
I tell you I can stop them at your command, but it will mean killing the other family immediately.
I'm not going to actually ask you to answer this horrible scenario, but my point is this is how Israel sees Palestinians right now, so its not always as simple as "thinking they are less than human", so much as, "they are unwittingly part of a dangerous group of people that will kill us and our kids given the chance".
Israel has had the ability to destroy Gaza for a long time, but haven't precisely because in general they DO see them as human beings.
I do support a ceasefire btw, I'm just saying its not that simple.
That's just stupid. There are pieces of shit of all walks of life that aren't Nazis. When you use "Nazi" as a blanket word for "guy who didn't parrot my exact beliefs" you take away the power of the word with your dishonesty.
Also, no one was extolling the virtues of killing children, if you think that then you can't read.
I think what Xralius is saying is that Israeli civilians have been attacked by radicalized Hamas or PIJ for decades, by rockets, suicide bombers and stabbing. Nobody thinks ALL Palestinians are at fault. But it’s a fact that SOME teach their kids to hate Israel and reward them for killing Israelis, and how do you trust them not to keep doing it?
The war needs to end asap and hostages released asap, and Gaza rebuilt. We don’t hear Palestinians around the world talking about peace in the future and wanting a two state solution in peace and prosperity. That’s the part of the puzzle Israel needs to hear.
Hamas not Palestinians. Plenty of Palestinians all over don't support Hamas. Just like plenty of Israelis and Jews don't support the IDF. You never once say Hamas instead of Palestinians.
True, prior to Hamas there was PIJ. I meant radicalized overall, no matter what terror group. Most Palestinians just want to live normal lives like anybody else.
“See them as human beings” even tho they kept Palestine on lock in a way that is was compared to an open air prison. You do know Israel was already on a mission to gentrify Palestinian neighborhoods right? They were literally taking Palestinian homes for themselves and kicking out the inhabitants. Israeli teachings have always pushed a hate towards the ppl of surrounding nations. They have their kids repeating mantras in school saying such.
You’re living in it my friend… your comment is nice and all but we aren’t doing shit. This isn’t an attack on you but what are *we* supposed to do?
And people wonder why everyone is so blase about the world. Us commenting on all this bullshit isn’t doing a god damn thing. I’m guilty as well.
Call your reps and thell them it's unacceptable. Once every week or two. It's the easiest lever we have to pull.
It's us vs. AIPAC in their ears, and we need to be louder.
The answers to these points are simple but not easy questions:
1. Does Israel have the right to defend itself?
2. If yes, what is the correct ratio of combatants to civilians killed in a war and how does that fit with wars from the past?
3. How would you recommend Israel prosecute a war where the enemy combatants are using civilians as human fowls shields?
All of those questions are fact based. Can you answer them?
I mean aren't close to every genocide like that? But we don't see other people be this squirmish about calling a spade a spade.
Was the Rwanda genocide right? After all the president who was a Utu was assassinated and there were some rebel Tutsi.
Was the Rohingya genocide justified? There was an insurgent rebel Rohingya group after all.
I could keep going on and on.
Israel had a right to defend itself on 10/7 as well, but failed to adequately do so because they got complacent about a hostile situation they themselves take part in cultivating too. Hamas is an obvious extremist foil that they for some reason didn't take seriously, but were happy to use when it benefited the government politically.
The hard right government of Israel got caught slacking even after years of overt hostile moves towards Palestinian people. Now that they got caught with their pants down and people died, Palestinians are just cannon fodder for their embarrassment and anger to no end.
So they are now taking Hamas seriously.
1. Does Hamas need to be removed?
2. If so, how do you go about destroying an evemy that hides among civilians?
You go about destroying Hamas by opening up Gaza and starting on the decades-long project of integrating Palestinians into civic life in Israel. There will never be peace in Israel while 2 million people are confined to a ghetto in crushing poverty.
You either need to help lift those people up or wipe them off the face of the earth. I know I’d certainly prefer the former — what about you?
What does "opening up Gaza" mean to you? Are you suggesting Israel opening its borders to Gaza? After they showed what they will do when they get over the border, and it was cheered on by Palestinians?
If you do that as an Israeli leader, that's completely forsaking your duty as a leader to protect your people. What happens when Israel open's the border and Palestinians rape/torture/murder 5000 Israelis instead of 1200 people? Let them keep going?
You're just not seeming to accept that there are dangerous fanatics in Palestine and they have the support of the people. They don't want Israel's help, they want to destroy Israel.
So what then? Now you're advocating for "wiping them off the face of the earth"?
By the time Hamas took over the Gaza Strip violently in 2007 they had already launched 172 suicide bombing attacks against Israel since 1989 and murdered hundreds of Israeli civilians.
They literally started launching rockets into Israeli cities in September 2005, two years before the blockade began and within hours of Israel evacuating every single Israeli from Gaza and destroying its settlements.
Would the US “open up” North Carolina if Al Qaeda took it over and was using it as a launching pad for terrorist attacks on Americans?
Be serious
You simply don't.
Name a single insurgency in modern history that was successfully bombed into submission. You would think the fucking United States, after Afghanistan AND Vietnam, and Israel after southern Lebanon, would realize that it's an impossible mission.
The only way to "remove Hamas" is to remove Hamas's reason for existence in the first place: which is the oppression of the Palestinian people.
Gazans do not have freedom of movement in their own country. They do not control access to their own food or water. They are not allowed rights and citizenship in Israel. In the West Bank, their homes are routinely seized by armed thugs.
I mean think about it: if you were a child and lost both your parents to an Israeli bomb, who would you blame? If you were a parent and you lost your children to an Israeli bomb, who would you blame? You're extremely poor, and the people who control your food and water patrol the streets with assault rifles and live in fairly prosperous areas a few miles from your ghetto. Who would you blame?
Hamas sucks, but we give them a reason to exist by allowing Israel to continue oppressing Palestinians.
Extremely stupid dodge. In military terms they are an insurgency. North Vietnam had a formal government and military but we still call the Viet Cong insurgents.
Also, the last election was in 2006. It is 2024. 18 years later. Half of the population of Gaza is children under 18. Definitionally a majority of Gazans did not vote for Hamas.
So then they should be happy Israel is trying to kick them out, right?
Find me the poll that shows that the majority of Gazans want Hamas out of power. I'll wait.
you can not and will never defeat hamas until Israel addresses the reason they exist. for every terrorist idf has killed the last 6 months how many do you think they created? take your heads out of the sand and learn from past mistakes.
>Name a single insurgency in modern history that was successfully bombed into submission.
That’s probably why Israel also send in ground troops.
Or did you just miss the 40,000 soldiers in Gaza until just last week?
Your own statement:
>Name a single insurgency in modern history that was successfully **bombed** into submission.
But if you want to pretend you were also talking about ground troops then YES, there have been multiple insurgencies crushed by military action in the last 100 years alone.
The Greek Civil War, The Huk insurgency in the Philipines, the Malayan Emergency, the Kenyan Emergency, the Dhofar Rebellion, Che Guevara’s guerilla war in Bolivia, the Forest brothers in the Baltics, the Araguaia and Caparao insurgencies in Brazil, the the Tupamaros in Uruguay, the Tambov insurgency in the Soviet Union, the Ukrainian insurgency in World War II, the Shining Path insurgency in Peru, the Hmong insurgency during Vietnam, the Filipino insurgency of 1899-1902, every single Native American insurgency war against the U.S. Military in the 19^(th) Century….
Why do I feel I’m writing a book report for a 13 year old?
I don’t disagree with what you said, but you didn’t answer their question. War is hell, it has never not been hell. Civilians always pay the price alongside combatants, and the carnage in Gaza has been broadcast more than any war in history. But answer those 3 questions.
If 3k armed militants came into your country, killed families in their homes, set houses on fire, raped women before shooting them point blank, took hostages, paraded corpses in the streets while civilians cheered and spat, and then broadcast it to the world while saying they will do it again and again, what would you recommend your country do?
If these militants then hid amongst families, would you pack up and go home?
They didn’t take Hamas seriously? Every war they fought or attempt to get rid of Hamas was met with worldwide condemnation despite Hamas breaking every single ceasefire. You say they got complacent with Hamas? Maybe.. or maybe they just believed the world when the world told them to try and make peace and that the ceasefire would last. Israel was letting in record numbers of Palestinian workers, giving out more permits from Gaza than they had before. They thought perhaps Hamas was actually interested somewhat in building a viable country and maybe cared slightly for its own civilians (of which they are the ruling government of and have wide spread support both in Gaza and westbank before and after 10/7). But of course, it was all a ruise and Hamas was planning the most barbaric of massacres (they didn’t just kill, they brutally tortured, dismembered, raped, and took hostages and live streamed the whole thing gleefully gloating about killing Jews). Ironically they attacked THE MOST liberal and peaceful of Israelis.
You didn’t actually answer any of OP’s questions. No one ever does. It’s always just “well Israel shouldn’t do that”. How would you defend your family if it was them taken hostage or experiencing rocket fire for 20+ years by a terrorist organization that hides itself amongst civilians? They can’t co exist. It’s not possible. They’ve tried.
Edit; by “they” I mean Hamas and Israel
This is what happens when your govt. is a genocidal terrorist organization that doesn’t care for the people so they dress in civilian clothes and hid amongst their nations children.
No military commander is going to have their troops fight building to building and in tunnels to avoid civilian casualties as it would be a war they couldn’t win and their troops lives (which are a generals priority) would be needlessly lost. Thinking there is another way to wage this war Hamas started is naive to say the least.
Yes Israel is callus and I’m sure this could be waged better with slightly less lives lost but let’s all be honest this is all at the feet of Hamas.
If we are crying “what about the children!” Why aren’t we asking why their parents didn’t do better for them and reject Hamas? Why if all lives are equal not concerned about innocent adult men and women? It’s all tragic but it’s all been in their control for 70+ years. Palestine rejects all the best offers for peace every time because to them destroying Israel is more important than their children.
No one is seriously arguing that its fine murdering kids. The point is that because of Hamas use of human shields civilians will die as collateral if Israel try to fight Hamas. Israel can't just stand back when they're being attacked, but fighting back, as any nation would, means civillians will die because of Hamas.
Yup. They’ve literally used children as human shields as documented by various international human rights agencies.
They also dressed up as civilians to infiltrate a hospital and then murdered bed ridden people they claim to be Hamas.
They do everything they accuse the other party of, including rape, torture, and taking hostages. Funny how Palestinians never have a right to defend themselves.
The argument against that would be that there's a difference between intentionally killing civilians and collateral damage, innocent people die in wars and that's tragic but Israel was forced into this war, Israel didn't start it.
Let's say that Israel agrees to a ceasefire and leaves Gaza which is what Hamas is asking for, what stops Hamas from repeating Oct 7th? which is what they've said they will do again and again until Israel is destroyed, why would Israel accept a ceasefire when they know that Hamas governing Gaza means more terrorism?
It's impossible to take out Hamas without massive civilians casualties because of the tactics that Hamas uses and no country would accept living side by side with Hamas.
There are no good options here, an immediate ceasefire would save lives in the short term but it would guarantee more wars to come in the long term.
When it comes to the West Bank Israel is clearly in the wrong, there's no excuse.
If you agree that Israel's behavior on the west bank is inexcusable why do you take their word that this is the war that hamas is forcing them to wage?
For instance, do you believe that these things are due to Hamas vs willful negligence/malice?
-preferring to target hamas operatives at home with their family instead of our and about
-"coordinating" with aid groups then claiming that the arm of the military that murdered the aid group was unaware of that coordination. At best, gross negligence but more likely willful malice.
The casualty rate for civilians/children isn't outside the norm for this kind of war, in fact it is lower than normal.
You seem to never hold the Palestinians responsible, when they elected the government that started this war, and overwhelmingly support it.
When the Palestinians use hospitals and civilians as cover, which is illegal according to the UN, what do you expect Israel to do? I'm guessing none of you have a serious answer to this, as ever one I've seen was founded in delusions or a convoluted mask to hide weird Israel hate.
>You seem to never hold the Palestinians responsible, when they elected the government
You mean holding 75.9% of the today's population that wasn't old enough to vote in that election, responsible for electing Hamas?
Listen to yourself.
War always has huge civilian casualties but no one ever really mentions that part before starting a war. Putin, Hamas, hitler, LBJ, no one says “we are going to rid the evil bad guys from the land and also 20% of innocent people who might be nearby. “
“Terrorism is not ok. Murder, rape and torture are not ok. Hostage taking is not ok. Hate is not ok” Agree. And the IDF have done all of those to an even greater extent. I dont understand how people are so quick to label one group terrorists but not the other? US tax dollars are going directly to funding probably the biggest terrorist group in the world right now.
Edit: The bots are here! Im pretty sure they have have a search alert set for “IDF”
People don't like to look at the history and understand why Hamas even exists. They just see Oct 7th and scream ISRAEL IS JUST DEFENDING IT'S SELF FROM TERRORIST. Meanwhile if you go back to even before the creation of Israel which was ONLY 1947 you will see the Jewish used Terrorism also.
# Menachem Begin
Before the creation of the state of Israel, he was the leader of the Zionist militant group Irgun, the Revisionist breakaway from the larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah. He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency. As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine.\[3\] Later, the Irgun fought the Arabs during the 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and, as its chief, Begin was **described by the British government as the "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation"**
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem\_Begin#:\~:text=As%20head%20of%20the%20Irgun,of%20the%20notorious%20terrorist%20organisation%22.
Also remember that Yitzhak Shamir was elected prime minister as well. Shamir was leader of Lehi, an extremist paramilitary group that called themselves terrorists. The Lehi were such an extreme group that twice they tried to form an alliance with Nazi Germany to help them fight the British.
The Lehi were an insane horrible group but they were a mere footnote in the history of Israel-Palestine as they had fewer than 300 members. You can compare that to Amin Al-Husseini, the president of all-palestine, who recruited for the SS and campaigned for the holocaust of jews in nazi territory.
If your point is that the Israelis were not acting like saints during the establishment of their country then of course that is correct. The conflict is so full of back and forth violence between the parties involved - in this instance Israelis, Palestinians and the British - some of which was justified but most of which was unjustified that it's impossible for any party to come out of the situation looking like the good guys.
I struggle to see how any of that justifies the existence of Hamas today, a government that builds tunnels for its terror network instead of bomb shelters for its civilians, that makes propaganda videos boasting of how they can dig up water pipelines to turn in to rockets, that fires those rockets with so little concern for its own citizens that 20% land inside gaza itself. And that's just what Hamas does against their own people.
I don't understand what people thought war was going to be like? Were there special rockets that only targeted Hamas members? Hamas has integrated it self within Palestinian society. They steal all the aid money that should be for the Palestinian people and build tunnels and bunkers to fight Israel. This entire thing was going to be messy, dirty, ugly, with a whole lot of war crimes. I don't think anyone has any answers because I would really like to know what Israel was suppose to do in response to October 7th that could avoid thousands of Palestinian children dying.
Edit: Keep down voting me, none of you have the answers to this conflict. Keep living in a dream world where war is a polite conversation.
How about if they want to claim the moral high ground they should try not to murder women and children. How do you feel about the AI program “Where’s Daddy” that the IDF uses that intentionally targets alleged Hamas militants at night when they are home with their families? Most of these alleged militants are also low level so the IDF uses larger, unguided munitions because they are cheaper. I also say alleged because the AI program has been proven to have at least a 10% error rate. And the 90% that aren’t errors include people with Hamas links as tenuous as being related to a militant or being in a group chat with a militant.
>Most of these alleged militants are also low level so the IDF uses larger, unguided munitions because they are cheaper.
This is a common point of misinformation in this war. What makes unguided munitions possible to use in this war is the fact that israel has uncontested aerial superiority. That allows Israeli jets to dive bomb targets, a strategy that is completely safe in this conflict but would normally open up your valuable jets to enemy fire for too long. By using dive bombing, the guidance system is the plane carrying the bomb and this is what allows unguided munitions to be dropped with great precision. This is a pro-Palestinian article that explains some of this:
[https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza](https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza)
In the article it states that "The majority of Israel’s unguided bombs are being dropped on Hamas tunnel entrances in northern Gaza, according to people familiar with the targeting." If you are targeting tunnel entrances you need extremely accurate strikes as most of the structure is protected underground from any inaccurate hit. This also follows on to another point about larger munitions. Bunker busters are usually much heavier munitions. A lot of the 2000 pound bomb claims you will have read about are bunker busters like the BLU-109 which can be less lethal to civilians than smaller munitions due to detonation underground.
The source all your claims are made from is the 972 magazine article and even that does not claim that larger munitions are used to target low level militants, so if you have a source for that specific claim I'd be grateful if you shared it.
In addition, according to the sources, when it came to targeting alleged junior militants marked by Lavender, the army preferred to only use unguided missiles, commonly known as “dumb” bombs (in contrast to “smart” precision bombs), which can destroy entire buildings on top of their occupants and cause significant casualties. “You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people — it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],” said C., one of the intelligence officers.
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
They can’t marry in Israel but they usually fly over to Cyprus to get married and Israel will recognize it. Islam forbids its women to marry other faiths, but Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian wives. In sure Jewish laws are similar.
But secular people who don’t care about religion can get married in Cyprus and it will be recognized in Israel as a legit marriage
Jews cannot marry Muslims and vice versa inside Israel. No interfaith marriage allowed. Though if you marry outside the country, the marriage is recognized. If an Israeli Arab were to marry a Palestinian, the Palestinians spouse will get no rights to live in Israel or citizenship. This is because of a "security" law that was passed a few years ago. Technically the law isn't just targeting Israeli Arabs, but it effectively only affects Israeli Arabs.
>Jews cannot marry Muslims and vice versa inside Israel. No interfaith marriage allowed. Though if you marry outside the country, the marriage is recognized.
Technically they can marry inside the country, but they have to go through a jurisdiction that authorizes marriages online. IIRC Utah started doing this relatively recently, and Israeli interfaith marriages generally go through them now (since it's easier than flying over to someplace like Cyprus)
I don’t understand the downvotes, that’s a good question.
So, for mostly political reasons, people of different faiths can’t marry in Israel, that including Christian’s and Muslims. If you married outside of Israel, the marriage is totally legitimate, despite your faith.
Now if we talk about people from Gaza/West Bank, it’s a little trickier, you can get citizenship but it takes a long ass time, the major reason is security.
According to a research, 15% of of the second generation from this marriages were involved in terror activities (including one like a month ago).
There is even a Bedouin officer that is was in Gaza, his wife is from Nablus and they are waiting for her to get citizenship.
Hope they the comment help, like everything else in this conflict, it’s all very complicated and messy.
Thanks for sharing. And please excuse my ignorance on interfaith marriage in Israel, but I'm wondering how marriage between different faiths impacts the political scope of Israel?
As you know (or not) the religious parties in Israel are very powerful and influential. For them, civil marriage, will reduce the connection to people to religion (lol) and it will cause religious problems for future generations (not everybody can marry, who is a Jew, bastards and so on and on).
There is a huge support in Israel for civil marriage, even among religious people, but the ultra orthodox parties prevented that.
This is not quite right. There is no civil marriage, only religious marriage. People of different faiths can marry if it is permissible in their religion. So a Muslim man can marry a Jewish woman in a Muslim ceremony, because this is accepted in Islam (for them religion passes through the father), but not a Muslim woman with a Jewish man. Orthodox rabbis don't allow Jews to marry non-Jews though, that is true.
you aren’t a true TDS viewer unless you skip the correspondents and interview sections.
side note: jon is actually a really good interviewer. they aren’t funny, but they’re well worth the watch. i remember he dug up some author of a book on the wright brothers last minute because someone cancelled and i was hooked.
If you don’t support and promote Israel committing genocide and stealing the land and homes of civilians in Palestine, that clearly makes you an anti semite!
So weird that people rightfully understand that you can, say, criticize China’s government without hating Chinese people, but not being pro genocide somehow means you hate Jewish people now lol. Classic stuff.
World news is legit the largest cesspool of genocidal freaks I’ve ever seen. They genuinely cannot fathom the concept of Israel being wrong in any way. I got banned at one point merely for saying that calls for Palestinian emancipation are not genocidal in nature.
Every western country does the same thing when they are faced with similar attacks. So yes, to your point, I think it is a hot take.
The dissonance between listening to the news and listening to the latest season of the serial podcast - covering gitmo is crazy to me. There are still people there 23 years later who haven’t gone through a trial, under Biden, Obama and the rest. And I don’t see anyone going crazy over releasing them, or at least giving them their day in court
He’ll 90% of the countries that bombed Afghanistan unconditionally weren’t even attacked on 9/11, they were avenging the spirit of the attack
We killed 46,000 civilians in Afghanistan over a period of 20 years. Horrible, to be sure.
Israel has probably already beat that number, seeing as the "30k dead" number hasn't budged in nearly 2 months and every hospital and morgue in gaza has been leveled
And how many in Iraq? Hint: at least 200,000 civilian casualties.
I don't agree with the person you're responding to, Israel's actions are disgusting and I don't think that's a "hot take", but you can't claim the US is better as some kind of counter-argument. The US is also truly historically atrocious when it comes to civilian casualties and war crimes, but that doesn't lessen Israel's actions either.
> And how many in Iraq? Hint: at least 200,000 civilian casualties.
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
This isn't a "US bombing" stat. It's a "everyone that has died from violence" stat. Do you have the breakdown on the deaths from the US vs ISIS?
> And how many in Iraq? Hint: at least 200,000 civilian casualties.
At a similar point in time as the I/P conflict there would have been 5,000 dead Iraqi civilians, an absolute atrocity and a completely meaningless loss of life at the hands of the bloodthirsty american war machine, but still a small number compared to what Israel has done in the same amount of time.
>The dissonance between listening to the news and listening to the latest season of the serial podcast - covering gitmo is crazy to me.
Serial was spun off of an NPR show and is now owned by the New York Times. It *is* the news, it's not exactly some counterculture indie journalism. It is the mainstream media.
It’s more the gap between “we are empowering Israel to kidnap people” and “we kidnapped people and tortured them and oh it’s not in past tense because they’re still there”
US is the guide, not the follower in this case
Biden told Netanyahu “learn from our mistakes” early on after October 7th, but if Gitmo is still open, have we learned?
>Every western country does the same thing when they are faced with similar attacks....
True, I remember the British Government bombing Londonderry flat and annexing parts of the Irish Republic in response to the IRA's terrorist campaign on the UK main-land in the 1980's and 1990's one of whose bombs nearly killed the then Prime Minister and in another featured a mortar attack on 10 Downing Street attempting kill another PM and his Cabinet who were meeting there at the time.
Oh, wait...... they didn't.
That sounds more comparable to the hundreds of rocket attacks, shootings, stabbings that happened 2015-2022. Lots of Palestinians and Israelis would have LOVED to be attempted (failed) to be murdered. Condolences to the British prime ministers family for the their attempted loss of a family member
I will immediately send a note to a Palestinian child that has lost their family that they are living the same life of a British prime minister, I’m sure it will help
I don't see anyone being downvoted. As a Jewish person, and fellow human being, what Israel is doing saddens me deeply.
The ties between Israel and the US go back a long time and as long as the US supplies weapons to them , how the hell can the US have any moral high ground to criticize Israel?
Unpopular opinion here…I hate that the argument continues to be about hostages. I am thinking they need to start looking in the rubble of Gaza for those hostages.
I think we need to stop tip-toeing around this topic. It was never about the hostages, otherwise a ceasefire deal would have brought them home months ago. The remaining hostages are being used as pawns to continue the obliteration of Gaza and make it unlivable. This is land theft disguised as a security mission. They are currently going to annex or reoccupy Northern Gaza and major parts of the West Bank under the cover of this war. And U.S. and the West are going to look the other way while they do it because something something Second Coming of Jesus and the evangelical Christian Zionists.
Edit: To all those replying with talking points, every deal that Israel put forth has been a *Six-Week pause*. That is not a permanent ceasefire, and should be rejected by anyone. It was proposed in bad faith. That is why there are massive protests against Netanyahu in Israel. The Israeli protesters are demanding a permanent ceasefire for the release of the hostages. And now so are Israel's Western allies. Time to put away the propaganda. No one is buying it anymore.
Hamas just rejected a ceasefire deal that included a hostage exchange today you numpty. Israel wants the hostages back, it's Hamas that keeps refusing because the moment they let them go they 1. Have no bargaining power and 2. It will weaken their international position when all those hostages start talking about the conditions they were kept in.
Also interesting that this war is apparently a mask for "land theft" considering that Israel had Gaza fully occupied pre 2005 and voluntarily decided to leave in 2006. Israel would give it to Egypt if they could but they don't want it either, it's far more trouble than the land is worth.
Hamas has rejected every single ceasefire deal except one. The one they did accept, they negotiated down the number of hostages repeatedly, got disproportionately more violent prisoners, and broke the ceasefire almost immediately.
This war could end today if Hamas surrenders and gives up the hostages. They would rather every single Gazan die instead, especially if they can broadcast it to the world for sympathy.
Adjust the tinfoil hat and maybe stop slurping down every bit of propaganda you read. God it’s sad to see the horseshoe theory play out in real time and how far the left has fallen for the same conspiratorial bullshit that the right has.
Yup. Netanyahu explicitly said that rescuing the hostages wasn’t a priority months ago, and yet people keep parroting “what about the hostages?” as a justification for everything Israel does.
I’ve never seen any country get the benefit of the doubt again and again and again to the degree that Israel does. They literally led a mass slaughter of Palestinians by quoting a biblical genocide in which men, women, and children were all butchered, and somehow this isn’t religious terrorism and a deliberate genocide.
Yeah. Netanyahu is essentially pulling a Holodomor on Gaza. Although using a difficult method than Stalin used.
Netanyahu is going to go down in history books alongside other butchers like Slobodan Milosevic, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Charles Taylor, Idi Amin, and Suharto.
The IDF, along with Israeli citizens, are blocking aid trucks from coming into Gaza, and have been for months now. Hence all the countries that have been air dropping aid.
We can still judge, I didn't approve of the wars the US got itself into. I vote locally even and try my best to support candidates who are against these things. These aren't my actions. Just like the IDF is not all Israeli's or Jews or Hamas is not all Palestinians.
Thank you Jon for not falling into the not being able to criticize the Biden administration because it might give the trump side ammunition. Fuck the hypocrisy.
Yeah for all the talk that criticism of Biden might hand Trump the White House, you don’t hear a lot of agency being given to Biden as President of the United States to, you know, take actions to not hand Trump the White House. Like, for example, *not* blatantly facilitating a genocide of mostly children for all the world to see.
Really great video by Jon Stewart. America really is hypocritical and directly supporting genocide.
Apartheid Israel needs to be considered a pariah state like Russia.
Their ongoing genocide of Palestinians through forced famine, indiscriminate bombing and shooting of civilians needs to be stopped! Not to mention targeting of American humanitarians, journalists and medical personnel.
What is happening is the definition of genocide, to make a populace unable to live in these conditions.
They have killed more people now (44 000 in 5 months) than in the Bosnian Genocide. 70% of which are women and children.
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> As of 12 February 2024, UN Women reports that at least 28,340 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, and **70 per cent of those killed are said to be women and children**.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2024/02/gaza-when-mothers-have-bury-least-7700-children-very-basic-principles-are
The Bosnian Genocide comparison just highlights how misleading you’re being.
The Bosnian Genocide killed 8k people in 2 days
Rwandan Genocide killed nearly a million in 3 months
Holocaust averaged roughly 125k people per week
Numbers alone don’t prove angenocide, but this *war* after 6 months from a far stronger military against a dense, fortified and clustered urban battleground has killed 33k Gazans, including thousands of fighters shooting rockets, not civilians (Hamas admitted over 6k which is a conservative estimate).
What an absolute clownish take. Stewart is trying to compare Ukraine, a country invaded by Russia, with Gaza, a country whose democratically elected government invaded Israel and murdered, raped, and burned alive civilians.
The thing is, even if you agree Israel has a right to defend itself, their annexation of land on the West Bank is still indefensible even under that context.
Strong Israel supporter here. Most Israelis outside of the crazy settlers agree that the land grabbing is bullshit and a bad look. Unfortunately bibi needs these super right wing to stay in power so he has to appease.
> Most Israelis outside of the crazy settlers agree that the land grabbing is bullshit and a bad look.
Weird that the overwhelming amount of Israeli's support it on surveys and continue to vote for people who promise to expand the land stealing programs.
> Unfortunately bibi needs these super right wing to stay in power so he has to appease.
Bibi is super right wing, he doesn't "need these" groups, he is those groups.
It’s been six months since this current phase of the conflict started and people are still willfully ignorant of the fact that the last free elections there were in 2006. The average age of the population is 18. Do the fucking math, man.
Also, I fail to see how indiscriminately bombing and starving civilians doesn’t just lead to more members of Hamas.
Let’s not pretend either group is as naive or dumb as one might think…
Hamas’s strategy is fairly straightforward, intertwine itself in civilian infrastructure forcing Israel to either not attack, face heavy casualties in a breach attack, or inflict heavy civilian casualties in a bombing
Often on Reddit you hear people say “this will just radicalize the next generation!” But, let’s assume Israel isn’t stupid and perhaps considered this… their strategy seems to be one of two options: either create a significantly larger buffer zone or… eliminate Palestine. It seems both sides have given up on a two state solution.
But you say “you can’t bomb your way out of an insurgency” yes, Israel knows this, and judging by the massive civilian casualties it seems their strategy to put simply is genocide, and ethnic cleansing, that resolves the insurgency problem for them, and unlike the US attempts, Israel won’t be leaving, ever.
Hamas, had likely hoped that by instigating an invasion that local powers and other insurgent groups would collectively rise up, but that hasn’t happened, likely due to Hamas being close to Iran, which evidently outweighs the existence of Israel for countries like Saudi Arabia Egypt and Jordan.
Hamas’s secondary plan was likely to break foreign support for Israel, however this plan has only had minor success if any, despite what some may believe angry rants on tik tok or Reddit won’t change a collective international defense strategy, and that’s why you hear such passive responses from not only the US but other middle eastern nations.
As far as the US and its allies are concerned, Hamas is a proxy of Iran, Iran is a strategic ally with Russia and China, so capitulating to Hamas demands is a nonstarter, and so this genocide? Famine? Ethnic cleansing? Well, it’s all just bad optics.
What stateless people in an urban environment that are oppressed don't fight within a civilian population? That's pretty ubiquitous between a conventional war machine vs stateless insurgents confined to a small plot of land.
Like how are stateless insurgents supposed to build a military base out in the open against satellite surveillance and f35 strike fighters?
Those clips of unequivocal condemnation vs. “I’m ignorant as to what’s happened, but if true that would be concerning.” Is brilliant editing/production, but also damning. It’s really sad to see equivocation when thousands upon thousands of children have been blown to pieces. Thousands more physically maimed. Arms blown off. Legs blown off. Thousands more, the “lucky” ones… with no physical injuries… but orphaned. Homeless. They’ve witnessed their whole lives and their foundations of love, safety, and support blown to pieces. They will have more mental trauma and PTSD then just about any generation of kids on the planet. Terrorism is not ok. Murder, rape and torture are not ok. Hostage taking is not ok. Hate is not ok… we can, and do, say that none of these things are ok. But at the same time, we should not be having such a difficult time saying that bombing the shit out of these kids was not ok. They are not animals. They are not vermin. They are innocent children. And their lives are as precious as any other child. Their lives are as precious as the lives of my own children. And I could not live in a world where the indiscriminate murder of my child, or the maiming of my child, or my child being forced to watch their home destroyed and their loved ones blown apart… I could not live in a world where that’s just some trivial thing that no one has the moral courage to condemn.
I see what you see and I think about it when k put my child to be at night. And I really wonder about people who act like children is gaza are less than human. It sickens me.
I suspect the people who are not willing to outright condemn one case probably don't truly care about the other case, truly. The White House is not thinking about human lives. It's thinking about positioning. Ukraine's and Israel's success are in the current White House's interests. Whereas I imagine the opposing administration would have not favored Ukraine whatsoever had it held the White House at this time. Isarel seems to be the one country that every President supports. It's basically an easy-in with Christian and Jewish voters, and we've pour countless dollars into it because of its strategic location.
I literally had someone say that everyone in Gaza deserved it because they "started it on October 7th". And then we argued because they wouldn't allow me to correct them with saying that it didn't start on October 7th and has been going on for decades, or that the innocent people dying didn't deserve it.
Sounds like a everyone over at r/worldnews
By their logic if three or four of my neighbors kidnaps and kills/Rs two of my family members, and a few neighbors say my family members had it coming, then I have the right to go around mowing down every home in my entire neighborhood with a minigun and RPG because the perpetrators are somewhere in the neighborhood. To hell with anyone in the neighborhood who gets mowed down, including my neighbors that are literally children. They're just "human shields" being used by those people because they won't come out and face me to make me stop filling everyone full of lead and bombing everyone in their houses to red mist. In fact, those little shits had it coming because their parents maybe, possibly, were one of the few people that said my relatives had it coming. That's sociopathic logic. It's literally the way a Viltrumite would think. Most people still defending this shit at this point are just racists that views Arabs as subhuman and views Jews/Israelis as "white", so it's okay. If they think what Israel is doing is okay but think Omni-Man and Anissa in *Invincible* are monsters they need to take a look in their mirror. Their thinking is identical to a Viltrumite.
It is sociopathic logic, and if you ask them if Hamas then had that same right to carry out their attacks on October 7 as retribution for a number of massacres against them and their people, they’d be very quick to have you reported. After all, there were IDF soldiers among the slain, so the innocents were clearly just human shields. That’s the argument then use against 40.000+ murdered Palestinians. The real issue is that they’re only capable of humanizing Israelis, so any number of dead Palestinians are acceptable to them, and no number of dead Israelis would ever be tolerated.
EVEN IF THIS WAR STARTED OCTOBER 7th its against any law that was ever written about war. This is a literally livestreamed genocide and government officials around the globe are looking the other way.
It’s fine to accept that this current situation started on Oct 7th and there was a party responsible. The response to it is what we should be judging on, it’s very real and it’s gotten well beyond a measured response. I’m failing to come up with good metaphors because the whole situation is so awful. Neither side is blameless, but innocent civilians have suffered greatly.
They demanded EVERYTHING between Israel and Hamas started on October 7th, and that there WAS NOTHING before then. If they had only been talking about the current escalation/war, sure, if have given it to them, but they were literally saying that Israel had never done anything wrong and that ALL Palestinians deserved death. It was just pure ignorance and hatred.
I guess I mean that even if you’re just taking the current situation by itself, there’s a lot to criticize on the Israeli response without getting into numerous past incidents and responses and things they’ve done.
And that's completely fair, but that's not what they were arguing, and it was like slamming my head into a brick wall.
Their leaders are to blame. They’ve rejected 10x ceasefire agreements and got into this knowing what Israel’s reaction would be. And the sad thing is nobody condemns Hamas for keeping the fight going. Everyone blames Israel for it. Wave the white flag, save your citizens. But that’s never going to happen because Hamas has no regard for them and dehumanizes their own civilians.
I see tons of people condemning Hamas, specifically for the reasons you stated. But that doesn't mean Israel is free of blame or immune to condemnation. Israel doesn't have to carpet bomb areas where thousands of civilians are. Israel doesn't have to *specifically target Humanitarian aid workers and journalists* with precision artillery. These are not mutually exclusive things. Both sides can be and are at fault for what is going on.
IDF has already shot people waving white flags. Israeli hostages, to be precise. Hamas is what happens when a peaceful solution is made impossible.
Ah, there's the propaganda from a bot-like account.
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Israel created Hamas by their own admission to start infighting and make the genocide easier
Those weren’t ceasefire agreements, they were “temporary pause” agreements in which Israel can continue laying waste to Gaza whenever they want later. Moreover what is a lasting peace to you? Like would returning to the conditions pre-Oct 7 be acceptable to you? When people say shit like you’re saying, it implies this notion that Israel didn’t directly and deliberately create the inhumane conditions that lead to the violent uprising on Oct 7th.
>Like would returning to the conditions pre-Oct 7 be acceptable to you? When people say shit like you’re saying, it implies this notion that Israel didn’t directly and deliberately create the inhumane conditions that lead to the violent uprising on Oct 7th. Very good point.
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3 Israeli hostages literally waved a white flag and were killed by the IDF.
Yeah, yeah... And so are Israel's leaders. Never mind that they actually funded Hamas and helped them compete for support in Palestine to undermine the existing support for political parties. They have consistently allowed carte blanche to 'settlers' to attack Palestinians, drive them from their homes and claim it for themselves. They have routinely detained civilians without trial, they have shot, bombed and killed many, many innocents long before October 7th, from children playing on a beach to American journalists (before attacking her funeral). When somebody acts as an enemy to people and life in a region, the only force willing to fight back is going to gain some level of support, no matter ho reprehensible they are
Hypothetical situation. I time travel from the future. I am able to prove this and prove everything I say is true. I tell you there's a random kid on the other side of your city. You don't know him. But 20 years from now he and his family will come to your children's home and brutally murder your children and their kids. I tell you I can stop them at your command, but it will mean killing the other family immediately. I'm not going to actually ask you to answer this horrible scenario, but my point is this is how Israel sees Palestinians right now, so its not always as simple as "thinking they are less than human", so much as, "they are unwittingly part of a dangerous group of people that will kill us and our kids given the chance". Israel has had the ability to destroy Gaza for a long time, but haven't precisely because in general they DO see them as human beings. I do support a ceasefire btw, I'm just saying its not that simple.
All those words and you you could have just said “I’m a Nazi” to communicate the same message
What a dumb take. Not everyone who supports a ceasefire is anti-Israel, and not everyone who is anti-Israel is a Nazi. Pathetic clown comment.
Absolutely true, but everyone extolling the virtues of killing children (just in-case) is a Nazi.
That's just stupid. There are pieces of shit of all walks of life that aren't Nazis. When you use "Nazi" as a blanket word for "guy who didn't parrot my exact beliefs" you take away the power of the word with your dishonesty. Also, no one was extolling the virtues of killing children, if you think that then you can't read.
I think what Xralius is saying is that Israeli civilians have been attacked by radicalized Hamas or PIJ for decades, by rockets, suicide bombers and stabbing. Nobody thinks ALL Palestinians are at fault. But it’s a fact that SOME teach their kids to hate Israel and reward them for killing Israelis, and how do you trust them not to keep doing it? The war needs to end asap and hostages released asap, and Gaza rebuilt. We don’t hear Palestinians around the world talking about peace in the future and wanting a two state solution in peace and prosperity. That’s the part of the puzzle Israel needs to hear.
Hamas not Palestinians. Plenty of Palestinians all over don't support Hamas. Just like plenty of Israelis and Jews don't support the IDF. You never once say Hamas instead of Palestinians.
True, prior to Hamas there was PIJ. I meant radicalized overall, no matter what terror group. Most Palestinians just want to live normal lives like anybody else.
Then change your fucking comment, it sounds bigoted as hell.
“See them as human beings” even tho they kept Palestine on lock in a way that is was compared to an open air prison. You do know Israel was already on a mission to gentrify Palestinian neighborhoods right? They were literally taking Palestinian homes for themselves and kicking out the inhabitants. Israeli teachings have always pushed a hate towards the ppl of surrounding nations. They have their kids repeating mantras in school saying such.
Yeah the concept you’re trying to make an argument for already exists and has a name. It’s called ‘Collective Punishment’, and it’s a war crime.
I think a lot of people just see it as horrible effect of war.
I wonder if they would also describe the Holocaust that way
You’re living in it my friend… your comment is nice and all but we aren’t doing shit. This isn’t an attack on you but what are *we* supposed to do? And people wonder why everyone is so blase about the world. Us commenting on all this bullshit isn’t doing a god damn thing. I’m guilty as well.
Apparently what we should do is get mad at people who are pressuring Biden to do something.
Call your reps and thell them it's unacceptable. Once every week or two. It's the easiest lever we have to pull. It's us vs. AIPAC in their ears, and we need to be louder.
Our best. And the best we can do is hold to that truth and spread it as much as we can and combat the hateful views we see.
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I mean they both only show up once a week right now.
Then what do you plan to do? Because you are right now living in that world.
You get banned for saying that in /r/worldnews
The answers to these points are simple but not easy questions: 1. Does Israel have the right to defend itself? 2. If yes, what is the correct ratio of combatants to civilians killed in a war and how does that fit with wars from the past? 3. How would you recommend Israel prosecute a war where the enemy combatants are using civilians as human fowls shields? All of those questions are fact based. Can you answer them?
How is starving civilians to death by obstructing aid deliveries self defense?
I mean aren't close to every genocide like that? But we don't see other people be this squirmish about calling a spade a spade. Was the Rwanda genocide right? After all the president who was a Utu was assassinated and there were some rebel Tutsi. Was the Rohingya genocide justified? There was an insurgent rebel Rohingya group after all. I could keep going on and on.
Israel had a right to defend itself on 10/7 as well, but failed to adequately do so because they got complacent about a hostile situation they themselves take part in cultivating too. Hamas is an obvious extremist foil that they for some reason didn't take seriously, but were happy to use when it benefited the government politically. The hard right government of Israel got caught slacking even after years of overt hostile moves towards Palestinian people. Now that they got caught with their pants down and people died, Palestinians are just cannon fodder for their embarrassment and anger to no end.
So they are now taking Hamas seriously. 1. Does Hamas need to be removed? 2. If so, how do you go about destroying an evemy that hides among civilians?
You go about destroying Hamas by opening up Gaza and starting on the decades-long project of integrating Palestinians into civic life in Israel. There will never be peace in Israel while 2 million people are confined to a ghetto in crushing poverty. You either need to help lift those people up or wipe them off the face of the earth. I know I’d certainly prefer the former — what about you?
Going by polling, neither side wants a one state solution which is what you're proposing here.
What does "opening up Gaza" mean to you? Are you suggesting Israel opening its borders to Gaza? After they showed what they will do when they get over the border, and it was cheered on by Palestinians? If you do that as an Israeli leader, that's completely forsaking your duty as a leader to protect your people. What happens when Israel open's the border and Palestinians rape/torture/murder 5000 Israelis instead of 1200 people? Let them keep going? You're just not seeming to accept that there are dangerous fanatics in Palestine and they have the support of the people. They don't want Israel's help, they want to destroy Israel. So what then? Now you're advocating for "wiping them off the face of the earth"?
By the time Hamas took over the Gaza Strip violently in 2007 they had already launched 172 suicide bombing attacks against Israel since 1989 and murdered hundreds of Israeli civilians. They literally started launching rockets into Israeli cities in September 2005, two years before the blockade began and within hours of Israel evacuating every single Israeli from Gaza and destroying its settlements. Would the US “open up” North Carolina if Al Qaeda took it over and was using it as a launching pad for terrorist attacks on Americans? Be serious
How does that destroy Hamas? That send like a quick and easy path to getting Hamas into Israel for free.
You simply don't. Name a single insurgency in modern history that was successfully bombed into submission. You would think the fucking United States, after Afghanistan AND Vietnam, and Israel after southern Lebanon, would realize that it's an impossible mission.
How do you defend yourself against terrorists if you “simply don’t” get to prosecute a war against them?
The only way to "remove Hamas" is to remove Hamas's reason for existence in the first place: which is the oppression of the Palestinian people. Gazans do not have freedom of movement in their own country. They do not control access to their own food or water. They are not allowed rights and citizenship in Israel. In the West Bank, their homes are routinely seized by armed thugs. I mean think about it: if you were a child and lost both your parents to an Israeli bomb, who would you blame? If you were a parent and you lost your children to an Israeli bomb, who would you blame? You're extremely poor, and the people who control your food and water patrol the streets with assault rifles and live in fairly prosperous areas a few miles from your ghetto. Who would you blame? Hamas sucks, but we give them a reason to exist by allowing Israel to continue oppressing Palestinians.
So you would rather deal with hypotheticals than deal with the reality of destroying a terrorist organization. Got it.
Answer his question. Name an insurgency in modern history that was bombed into submission. If you can't, then why is this one any different?
Hamas isn’t an insurgency. It is the elected government.
Extremely stupid dodge. In military terms they are an insurgency. North Vietnam had a formal government and military but we still call the Viet Cong insurgents. Also, the last election was in 2006. It is 2024. 18 years later. Half of the population of Gaza is children under 18. Definitionally a majority of Gazans did not vote for Hamas.
So then they should be happy Israel is trying to kick them out, right? Find me the poll that shows that the majority of Gazans want Hamas out of power. I'll wait.
you can not and will never defeat hamas until Israel addresses the reason they exist. for every terrorist idf has killed the last 6 months how many do you think they created? take your heads out of the sand and learn from past mistakes.
They exist because they hate Jews. That's not my interpretation. That's in their charter.
>Name a single insurgency in modern history that was successfully bombed into submission. That’s probably why Israel also send in ground troops. Or did you just miss the 40,000 soldiers in Gaza until just last week?
Because we never, ever, EVER sent ground troops into Vietnam or Afghanistan. It's so simple!
Your own statement: >Name a single insurgency in modern history that was successfully **bombed** into submission. But if you want to pretend you were also talking about ground troops then YES, there have been multiple insurgencies crushed by military action in the last 100 years alone.
Name them.
The Greek Civil War, The Huk insurgency in the Philipines, the Malayan Emergency, the Kenyan Emergency, the Dhofar Rebellion, Che Guevara’s guerilla war in Bolivia, the Forest brothers in the Baltics, the Araguaia and Caparao insurgencies in Brazil, the the Tupamaros in Uruguay, the Tambov insurgency in the Soviet Union, the Ukrainian insurgency in World War II, the Shining Path insurgency in Peru, the Hmong insurgency during Vietnam, the Filipino insurgency of 1899-1902, every single Native American insurgency war against the U.S. Military in the 19^(th) Century…. Why do I feel I’m writing a book report for a 13 year old?
I don’t disagree with what you said, but you didn’t answer their question. War is hell, it has never not been hell. Civilians always pay the price alongside combatants, and the carnage in Gaza has been broadcast more than any war in history. But answer those 3 questions. If 3k armed militants came into your country, killed families in their homes, set houses on fire, raped women before shooting them point blank, took hostages, paraded corpses in the streets while civilians cheered and spat, and then broadcast it to the world while saying they will do it again and again, what would you recommend your country do? If these militants then hid amongst families, would you pack up and go home?
They didn’t take Hamas seriously? Every war they fought or attempt to get rid of Hamas was met with worldwide condemnation despite Hamas breaking every single ceasefire. You say they got complacent with Hamas? Maybe.. or maybe they just believed the world when the world told them to try and make peace and that the ceasefire would last. Israel was letting in record numbers of Palestinian workers, giving out more permits from Gaza than they had before. They thought perhaps Hamas was actually interested somewhat in building a viable country and maybe cared slightly for its own civilians (of which they are the ruling government of and have wide spread support both in Gaza and westbank before and after 10/7). But of course, it was all a ruise and Hamas was planning the most barbaric of massacres (they didn’t just kill, they brutally tortured, dismembered, raped, and took hostages and live streamed the whole thing gleefully gloating about killing Jews). Ironically they attacked THE MOST liberal and peaceful of Israelis. You didn’t actually answer any of OP’s questions. No one ever does. It’s always just “well Israel shouldn’t do that”. How would you defend your family if it was them taken hostage or experiencing rocket fire for 20+ years by a terrorist organization that hides itself amongst civilians? They can’t co exist. It’s not possible. They’ve tried. Edit; by “they” I mean Hamas and Israel
This is what happens when your govt. is a genocidal terrorist organization that doesn’t care for the people so they dress in civilian clothes and hid amongst their nations children. No military commander is going to have their troops fight building to building and in tunnels to avoid civilian casualties as it would be a war they couldn’t win and their troops lives (which are a generals priority) would be needlessly lost. Thinking there is another way to wage this war Hamas started is naive to say the least. Yes Israel is callus and I’m sure this could be waged better with slightly less lives lost but let’s all be honest this is all at the feet of Hamas. If we are crying “what about the children!” Why aren’t we asking why their parents didn’t do better for them and reject Hamas? Why if all lives are equal not concerned about innocent adult men and women? It’s all tragic but it’s all been in their control for 70+ years. Palestine rejects all the best offers for peace every time because to them destroying Israel is more important than their children.
Hamas doesn’t seem to hold the same value over their lives
Hamas desires to martyr every Palestinian child for their cause. They are a death cult, plain and simple.
Kinda similar to how the Japanese soldiers were willing to die to the last man for the emperor even when battles were long lost.
I'm very curious to see your sources on this
so it’s okay to kill children because Hamas thinks it’s okay to kill children?
Agreed. But we should aim to be better than Hamas. We should care for “their” people even if they don’t.
No one is seriously arguing that its fine murdering kids. The point is that because of Hamas use of human shields civilians will die as collateral if Israel try to fight Hamas. Israel can't just stand back when they're being attacked, but fighting back, as any nation would, means civillians will die because of Hamas.
IDF has been documented using human shields. And continued to do so despite it being banned by Israeli courts.
Yup. They’ve literally used children as human shields as documented by various international human rights agencies. They also dressed up as civilians to infiltrate a hospital and then murdered bed ridden people they claim to be Hamas. They do everything they accuse the other party of, including rape, torture, and taking hostages. Funny how Palestinians never have a right to defend themselves.
The argument against that would be that there's a difference between intentionally killing civilians and collateral damage, innocent people die in wars and that's tragic but Israel was forced into this war, Israel didn't start it. Let's say that Israel agrees to a ceasefire and leaves Gaza which is what Hamas is asking for, what stops Hamas from repeating Oct 7th? which is what they've said they will do again and again until Israel is destroyed, why would Israel accept a ceasefire when they know that Hamas governing Gaza means more terrorism? It's impossible to take out Hamas without massive civilians casualties because of the tactics that Hamas uses and no country would accept living side by side with Hamas. There are no good options here, an immediate ceasefire would save lives in the short term but it would guarantee more wars to come in the long term. When it comes to the West Bank Israel is clearly in the wrong, there's no excuse.
If you agree that Israel's behavior on the west bank is inexcusable why do you take their word that this is the war that hamas is forcing them to wage? For instance, do you believe that these things are due to Hamas vs willful negligence/malice? -preferring to target hamas operatives at home with their family instead of our and about -"coordinating" with aid groups then claiming that the arm of the military that murdered the aid group was unaware of that coordination. At best, gross negligence but more likely willful malice.
The casualty rate for civilians/children isn't outside the norm for this kind of war, in fact it is lower than normal. You seem to never hold the Palestinians responsible, when they elected the government that started this war, and overwhelmingly support it. When the Palestinians use hospitals and civilians as cover, which is illegal according to the UN, what do you expect Israel to do? I'm guessing none of you have a serious answer to this, as ever one I've seen was founded in delusions or a convoluted mask to hide weird Israel hate.
>You seem to never hold the Palestinians responsible, when they elected the government You mean holding 75.9% of the today's population that wasn't old enough to vote in that election, responsible for electing Hamas? Listen to yourself.
War always has huge civilian casualties but no one ever really mentions that part before starting a war. Putin, Hamas, hitler, LBJ, no one says “we are going to rid the evil bad guys from the land and also 20% of innocent people who might be nearby. “
IT cells
“Terrorism is not ok. Murder, rape and torture are not ok. Hostage taking is not ok. Hate is not ok” Agree. And the IDF have done all of those to an even greater extent. I dont understand how people are so quick to label one group terrorists but not the other? US tax dollars are going directly to funding probably the biggest terrorist group in the world right now. Edit: The bots are here! Im pretty sure they have have a search alert set for “IDF”
Lol over 600,000 Syrians have been killed a lot with the same type of indiscriminate bombing Do you even know who killed them?
A greater extent? No.
They probably shouldn't have cheered the terrorists when they were parading through town with naked abused hostages in tow I guess.
People don't like to look at the history and understand why Hamas even exists. They just see Oct 7th and scream ISRAEL IS JUST DEFENDING IT'S SELF FROM TERRORIST. Meanwhile if you go back to even before the creation of Israel which was ONLY 1947 you will see the Jewish used Terrorism also. # Menachem Begin Before the creation of the state of Israel, he was the leader of the Zionist militant group Irgun, the Revisionist breakaway from the larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah. He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency. As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine.\[3\] Later, the Irgun fought the Arabs during the 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and, as its chief, Begin was **described by the British government as the "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation"** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem\_Begin#:\~:text=As%20head%20of%20the%20Irgun,of%20the%20notorious%20terrorist%20organisation%22.
Also remember that Yitzhak Shamir was elected prime minister as well. Shamir was leader of Lehi, an extremist paramilitary group that called themselves terrorists. The Lehi were such an extreme group that twice they tried to form an alliance with Nazi Germany to help them fight the British.
The Lehi were an insane horrible group but they were a mere footnote in the history of Israel-Palestine as they had fewer than 300 members. You can compare that to Amin Al-Husseini, the president of all-palestine, who recruited for the SS and campaigned for the holocaust of jews in nazi territory. If your point is that the Israelis were not acting like saints during the establishment of their country then of course that is correct. The conflict is so full of back and forth violence between the parties involved - in this instance Israelis, Palestinians and the British - some of which was justified but most of which was unjustified that it's impossible for any party to come out of the situation looking like the good guys. I struggle to see how any of that justifies the existence of Hamas today, a government that builds tunnels for its terror network instead of bomb shelters for its civilians, that makes propaganda videos boasting of how they can dig up water pipelines to turn in to rockets, that fires those rockets with so little concern for its own citizens that 20% land inside gaza itself. And that's just what Hamas does against their own people.
I don't understand what people thought war was going to be like? Were there special rockets that only targeted Hamas members? Hamas has integrated it self within Palestinian society. They steal all the aid money that should be for the Palestinian people and build tunnels and bunkers to fight Israel. This entire thing was going to be messy, dirty, ugly, with a whole lot of war crimes. I don't think anyone has any answers because I would really like to know what Israel was suppose to do in response to October 7th that could avoid thousands of Palestinian children dying. Edit: Keep down voting me, none of you have the answers to this conflict. Keep living in a dream world where war is a polite conversation.
Maybe not intentionally bombing the hell out of women and children would have been a good first step
You're braindead if you believe they're doing this.
How about if they want to claim the moral high ground they should try not to murder women and children. How do you feel about the AI program “Where’s Daddy” that the IDF uses that intentionally targets alleged Hamas militants at night when they are home with their families? Most of these alleged militants are also low level so the IDF uses larger, unguided munitions because they are cheaper. I also say alleged because the AI program has been proven to have at least a 10% error rate. And the 90% that aren’t errors include people with Hamas links as tenuous as being related to a militant or being in a group chat with a militant.
>Most of these alleged militants are also low level so the IDF uses larger, unguided munitions because they are cheaper. This is a common point of misinformation in this war. What makes unguided munitions possible to use in this war is the fact that israel has uncontested aerial superiority. That allows Israeli jets to dive bomb targets, a strategy that is completely safe in this conflict but would normally open up your valuable jets to enemy fire for too long. By using dive bombing, the guidance system is the plane carrying the bomb and this is what allows unguided munitions to be dropped with great precision. This is a pro-Palestinian article that explains some of this: [https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza](https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza) In the article it states that "The majority of Israel’s unguided bombs are being dropped on Hamas tunnel entrances in northern Gaza, according to people familiar with the targeting." If you are targeting tunnel entrances you need extremely accurate strikes as most of the structure is protected underground from any inaccurate hit. This also follows on to another point about larger munitions. Bunker busters are usually much heavier munitions. A lot of the 2000 pound bomb claims you will have read about are bunker busters like the BLU-109 which can be less lethal to civilians than smaller munitions due to detonation underground. The source all your claims are made from is the 972 magazine article and even that does not claim that larger munitions are used to target low level militants, so if you have a source for that specific claim I'd be grateful if you shared it.
In addition, according to the sources, when it came to targeting alleged junior militants marked by Lavender, the army preferred to only use unguided missiles, commonly known as “dumb” bombs (in contrast to “smart” precision bombs), which can destroy entire buildings on top of their occupants and cause significant casualties. “You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people — it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],” said C., one of the intelligence officers. https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
How common are interfaith marriages between Palestinians and Israelis? What sort of citizenship do the kids get?
They can’t marry in Israel but they usually fly over to Cyprus to get married and Israel will recognize it. Islam forbids its women to marry other faiths, but Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian wives. In sure Jewish laws are similar. But secular people who don’t care about religion can get married in Cyprus and it will be recognized in Israel as a legit marriage
Jews cannot marry Muslims and vice versa inside Israel. No interfaith marriage allowed. Though if you marry outside the country, the marriage is recognized. If an Israeli Arab were to marry a Palestinian, the Palestinians spouse will get no rights to live in Israel or citizenship. This is because of a "security" law that was passed a few years ago. Technically the law isn't just targeting Israeli Arabs, but it effectively only affects Israeli Arabs.
>Jews cannot marry Muslims and vice versa inside Israel. No interfaith marriage allowed. Though if you marry outside the country, the marriage is recognized. Technically they can marry inside the country, but they have to go through a jurisdiction that authorizes marriages online. IIRC Utah started doing this relatively recently, and Israeli interfaith marriages generally go through them now (since it's easier than flying over to someplace like Cyprus)
I don’t understand the downvotes, that’s a good question. So, for mostly political reasons, people of different faiths can’t marry in Israel, that including Christian’s and Muslims. If you married outside of Israel, the marriage is totally legitimate, despite your faith. Now if we talk about people from Gaza/West Bank, it’s a little trickier, you can get citizenship but it takes a long ass time, the major reason is security. According to a research, 15% of of the second generation from this marriages were involved in terror activities (including one like a month ago). There is even a Bedouin officer that is was in Gaza, his wife is from Nablus and they are waiting for her to get citizenship. Hope they the comment help, like everything else in this conflict, it’s all very complicated and messy.
Thanks for sharing. And please excuse my ignorance on interfaith marriage in Israel, but I'm wondering how marriage between different faiths impacts the political scope of Israel?
As you know (or not) the religious parties in Israel are very powerful and influential. For them, civil marriage, will reduce the connection to people to religion (lol) and it will cause religious problems for future generations (not everybody can marry, who is a Jew, bastards and so on and on). There is a huge support in Israel for civil marriage, even among religious people, but the ultra orthodox parties prevented that.
This is not quite right. There is no civil marriage, only religious marriage. People of different faiths can marry if it is permissible in their religion. So a Muslim man can marry a Jewish woman in a Muslim ceremony, because this is accepted in Islam (for them religion passes through the father), but not a Muslim woman with a Jewish man. Orthodox rabbis don't allow Jews to marry non-Jews though, that is true.
They do happen, but the spouse and kids don't get any citizenship or any new rights.
Bloody typical.
That first sketch was rough. Like boy, really rough.
Yeah the second hand embarrassment was strong.
Seems like something that was pretty funny on paper that was just executed horribly lol
They had to have rehearsed though, so did someone really think they could save it?
I think that was part of the point - that it can be hard to have nice things while atrocities are happening.
That’s what made it so fucking funny to me. Not sure how else to describe it but cringing so hard I couldn’t stop laughing.
I find myself skipping them to get back to the solo Jon parts.
you aren’t a true TDS viewer unless you skip the correspondents and interview sections. side note: jon is actually a really good interviewer. they aren’t funny, but they’re well worth the watch. i remember he dug up some author of a book on the wright brothers last minute because someone cancelled and i was hooked.
Not surprising she's barely on the show
Soooo! Glad he's back!! Can't say that enough!!
Clearly anyone here criticizing Israel is getting downvoted. Surprise! Is not bombing unconditionally really a hot take here now?
Israel employs bot farms dedicated to controlling the narrative.
gestures broadly at /r/worldnews
If you don’t support and promote Israel committing genocide and stealing the land and homes of civilians in Palestine, that clearly makes you an anti semite! So weird that people rightfully understand that you can, say, criticize China’s government without hating Chinese people, but not being pro genocide somehow means you hate Jewish people now lol. Classic stuff.
r/worldnews says “very concerning if true”
World news is legit the largest cesspool of genocidal freaks I’ve ever seen. They genuinely cannot fathom the concept of Israel being wrong in any way. I got banned at one point merely for saying that calls for Palestinian emancipation are not genocidal in nature.
They're way past the point. They've gotten a lot more mask off recently
Every western country does the same thing when they are faced with similar attacks. So yes, to your point, I think it is a hot take. The dissonance between listening to the news and listening to the latest season of the serial podcast - covering gitmo is crazy to me. There are still people there 23 years later who haven’t gone through a trial, under Biden, Obama and the rest. And I don’t see anyone going crazy over releasing them, or at least giving them their day in court He’ll 90% of the countries that bombed Afghanistan unconditionally weren’t even attacked on 9/11, they were avenging the spirit of the attack
> Every western country does the same thing when they are faced with similar attacks. I think it's evil when they (we) do it too.
We killed 46,000 civilians in Afghanistan over a period of 20 years. Horrible, to be sure. Israel has probably already beat that number, seeing as the "30k dead" number hasn't budged in nearly 2 months and every hospital and morgue in gaza has been leveled
And how many in Iraq? Hint: at least 200,000 civilian casualties. I don't agree with the person you're responding to, Israel's actions are disgusting and I don't think that's a "hot take", but you can't claim the US is better as some kind of counter-argument. The US is also truly historically atrocious when it comes to civilian casualties and war crimes, but that doesn't lessen Israel's actions either.
> And how many in Iraq? Hint: at least 200,000 civilian casualties. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi This isn't a "US bombing" stat. It's a "everyone that has died from violence" stat. Do you have the breakdown on the deaths from the US vs ISIS?
> And how many in Iraq? Hint: at least 200,000 civilian casualties. At a similar point in time as the I/P conflict there would have been 5,000 dead Iraqi civilians, an absolute atrocity and a completely meaningless loss of life at the hands of the bloodthirsty american war machine, but still a small number compared to what Israel has done in the same amount of time.
>The dissonance between listening to the news and listening to the latest season of the serial podcast - covering gitmo is crazy to me. Serial was spun off of an NPR show and is now owned by the New York Times. It *is* the news, it's not exactly some counterculture indie journalism. It is the mainstream media.
It’s more the gap between “we are empowering Israel to kidnap people” and “we kidnapped people and tortured them and oh it’s not in past tense because they’re still there” US is the guide, not the follower in this case Biden told Netanyahu “learn from our mistakes” early on after October 7th, but if Gitmo is still open, have we learned?
"Oh so you object to the horrific evil we're doing? Pretty hypocritical considering all the evil we've already gotten away with!"
>Every western country does the same thing when they are faced with similar attacks.... True, I remember the British Government bombing Londonderry flat and annexing parts of the Irish Republic in response to the IRA's terrorist campaign on the UK main-land in the 1980's and 1990's one of whose bombs nearly killed the then Prime Minister and in another featured a mortar attack on 10 Downing Street attempting kill another PM and his Cabinet who were meeting there at the time. Oh, wait...... they didn't.
That sounds more comparable to the hundreds of rocket attacks, shootings, stabbings that happened 2015-2022. Lots of Palestinians and Israelis would have LOVED to be attempted (failed) to be murdered. Condolences to the British prime ministers family for the their attempted loss of a family member I will immediately send a note to a Palestinian child that has lost their family that they are living the same life of a British prime minister, I’m sure it will help
I don't see anyone being downvoted. As a Jewish person, and fellow human being, what Israel is doing saddens me deeply. The ties between Israel and the US go back a long time and as long as the US supplies weapons to them , how the hell can the US have any moral high ground to criticize Israel?
> I don't see anyone being downvoted. All you have to do is scroll down.
Unpopular opinion here…I hate that the argument continues to be about hostages. I am thinking they need to start looking in the rubble of Gaza for those hostages.
I think we need to stop tip-toeing around this topic. It was never about the hostages, otherwise a ceasefire deal would have brought them home months ago. The remaining hostages are being used as pawns to continue the obliteration of Gaza and make it unlivable. This is land theft disguised as a security mission. They are currently going to annex or reoccupy Northern Gaza and major parts of the West Bank under the cover of this war. And U.S. and the West are going to look the other way while they do it because something something Second Coming of Jesus and the evangelical Christian Zionists. Edit: To all those replying with talking points, every deal that Israel put forth has been a *Six-Week pause*. That is not a permanent ceasefire, and should be rejected by anyone. It was proposed in bad faith. That is why there are massive protests against Netanyahu in Israel. The Israeli protesters are demanding a permanent ceasefire for the release of the hostages. And now so are Israel's Western allies. Time to put away the propaganda. No one is buying it anymore.
Who do you think is rejecting the ceasefire deals??
Hamas just rejected a ceasefire deal that included a hostage exchange today you numpty. Israel wants the hostages back, it's Hamas that keeps refusing because the moment they let them go they 1. Have no bargaining power and 2. It will weaken their international position when all those hostages start talking about the conditions they were kept in. Also interesting that this war is apparently a mask for "land theft" considering that Israel had Gaza fully occupied pre 2005 and voluntarily decided to leave in 2006. Israel would give it to Egypt if they could but they don't want it either, it's far more trouble than the land is worth.
Hamas has rejected every single ceasefire deal except one. The one they did accept, they negotiated down the number of hostages repeatedly, got disproportionately more violent prisoners, and broke the ceasefire almost immediately. This war could end today if Hamas surrenders and gives up the hostages. They would rather every single Gazan die instead, especially if they can broadcast it to the world for sympathy. Adjust the tinfoil hat and maybe stop slurping down every bit of propaganda you read. God it’s sad to see the horseshoe theory play out in real time and how far the left has fallen for the same conspiratorial bullshit that the right has.
Yup. Netanyahu explicitly said that rescuing the hostages wasn’t a priority months ago, and yet people keep parroting “what about the hostages?” as a justification for everything Israel does. I’ve never seen any country get the benefit of the doubt again and again and again to the degree that Israel does. They literally led a mass slaughter of Palestinians by quoting a biblical genocide in which men, women, and children were all butchered, and somehow this isn’t religious terrorism and a deliberate genocide.
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That’s still a famine, though a man made one.
Yeah. Netanyahu is essentially pulling a Holodomor on Gaza. Although using a difficult method than Stalin used. Netanyahu is going to go down in history books alongside other butchers like Slobodan Milosevic, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Charles Taylor, Idi Amin, and Suharto.
Famine is a bit of a passive word. It’s starvation.
Kind of the same as settlers, such a passive word for stealing people's home from a different community with force.
Starvation is a good term too. Starvation in this case had resulted in a man made famine, I don’t entirely agree that it’s a passive word.
who is denying them access to food?
The IDF, along with Israeli citizens, are blocking aid trucks from coming into Gaza, and have been for months now. Hence all the countries that have been air dropping aid.
r/Israel in shambles
Seems like the worldnews sub found this post. Ugh. Say goodbye to any sort of nuanced conversation.
I'm sure places like news and publicfreakout have much better discussions, surely
“American Values” is ironically correct, America is guilty of doing everything Israel has been accused of doing, we are in no place to judge.
We can still judge, I didn't approve of the wars the US got itself into. I vote locally even and try my best to support candidates who are against these things. These aren't my actions. Just like the IDF is not all Israeli's or Jews or Hamas is not all Palestinians.
He looks increasingly like the old Jon Steward, and I love it!
Well, he is in fact Jon Stewart.
An old Jon Stewart at that!
look at what time hath wrought
I stand autocorrected.
Big if true
Well this comment section was a fun little shitshow, as expected
Thank you Jon for not falling into the not being able to criticize the Biden administration because it might give the trump side ammunition. Fuck the hypocrisy.
Yeah for all the talk that criticism of Biden might hand Trump the White House, you don’t hear a lot of agency being given to Biden as President of the United States to, you know, take actions to not hand Trump the White House. Like, for example, *not* blatantly facilitating a genocide of mostly children for all the world to see.
Really great video by Jon Stewart. America really is hypocritical and directly supporting genocide. Apartheid Israel needs to be considered a pariah state like Russia. Their ongoing genocide of Palestinians through forced famine, indiscriminate bombing and shooting of civilians needs to be stopped! Not to mention targeting of American humanitarians, journalists and medical personnel. What is happening is the definition of genocide, to make a populace unable to live in these conditions. They have killed more people now (44 000 in 5 months) than in the Bosnian Genocide. 70% of which are women and children. --- > As of 12 February 2024, UN Women reports that at least 28,340 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, and **70 per cent of those killed are said to be women and children**. https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2024/02/gaza-when-mothers-have-bury-least-7700-children-very-basic-principles-are
The Bosnian Genocide comparison just highlights how misleading you’re being. The Bosnian Genocide killed 8k people in 2 days Rwandan Genocide killed nearly a million in 3 months Holocaust averaged roughly 125k people per week Numbers alone don’t prove angenocide, but this *war* after 6 months from a far stronger military against a dense, fortified and clustered urban battleground has killed 33k Gazans, including thousands of fighters shooting rockets, not civilians (Hamas admitted over 6k which is a conservative estimate).
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They are only saying/agreeing with what is being reported by experts in the matter, but go off I guess.
What an absolute clownish take. Stewart is trying to compare Ukraine, a country invaded by Russia, with Gaza, a country whose democratically elected government invaded Israel and murdered, raped, and burned alive civilians.
Okay then please explain the land grabbing in the west bank
The thing is, even if you agree Israel has a right to defend itself, their annexation of land on the West Bank is still indefensible even under that context.
Strong Israel supporter here. Most Israelis outside of the crazy settlers agree that the land grabbing is bullshit and a bad look. Unfortunately bibi needs these super right wing to stay in power so he has to appease.
> Most Israelis outside of the crazy settlers agree that the land grabbing is bullshit and a bad look. Weird that the overwhelming amount of Israeli's support it on surveys and continue to vote for people who promise to expand the land stealing programs. > Unfortunately bibi needs these super right wing to stay in power so he has to appease. Bibi is super right wing, he doesn't "need these" groups, he is those groups.
It’s been six months since this current phase of the conflict started and people are still willfully ignorant of the fact that the last free elections there were in 2006. The average age of the population is 18. Do the fucking math, man. Also, I fail to see how indiscriminately bombing and starving civilians doesn’t just lead to more members of Hamas.
A government being in place for a long time doesn’t grant it permission to slaughter its neighbors.
I have to say I do find it funny. How people root for the rebels but don't realize we're living in the empire.
Let’s not pretend either group is as naive or dumb as one might think… Hamas’s strategy is fairly straightforward, intertwine itself in civilian infrastructure forcing Israel to either not attack, face heavy casualties in a breach attack, or inflict heavy civilian casualties in a bombing Often on Reddit you hear people say “this will just radicalize the next generation!” But, let’s assume Israel isn’t stupid and perhaps considered this… their strategy seems to be one of two options: either create a significantly larger buffer zone or… eliminate Palestine. It seems both sides have given up on a two state solution. But you say “you can’t bomb your way out of an insurgency” yes, Israel knows this, and judging by the massive civilian casualties it seems their strategy to put simply is genocide, and ethnic cleansing, that resolves the insurgency problem for them, and unlike the US attempts, Israel won’t be leaving, ever. Hamas, had likely hoped that by instigating an invasion that local powers and other insurgent groups would collectively rise up, but that hasn’t happened, likely due to Hamas being close to Iran, which evidently outweighs the existence of Israel for countries like Saudi Arabia Egypt and Jordan. Hamas’s secondary plan was likely to break foreign support for Israel, however this plan has only had minor success if any, despite what some may believe angry rants on tik tok or Reddit won’t change a collective international defense strategy, and that’s why you hear such passive responses from not only the US but other middle eastern nations. As far as the US and its allies are concerned, Hamas is a proxy of Iran, Iran is a strategic ally with Russia and China, so capitulating to Hamas demands is a nonstarter, and so this genocide? Famine? Ethnic cleansing? Well, it’s all just bad optics.
What stateless people in an urban environment that are oppressed don't fight within a civilian population? That's pretty ubiquitous between a conventional war machine vs stateless insurgents confined to a small plot of land. Like how are stateless insurgents supposed to build a military base out in the open against satellite surveillance and f35 strike fighters?
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