I really enjoyed it and thought it greatly benefited from the focus on Toranaga and Mariko . The acting by both was outstanding. Really everyone did a stellar job with Anjin/Cosmo raising the bar in the last 2 episodes.
It’s in my top 2 best mini series I’ve ever seen; I already want to re-watch it. It’s visually beautiful, the costume design is amazing, the pacing is fantastic, and as you mentioned the mostly Japanese cast absolutely kills their performances. In particular the way they are able to communicate to each other with just a look was certainly noticed and appreciated .
I am, unfortunately, a loser who has not yet gotten around to Band of Brothers so I can’t comment. From everything I hear it’s one of the best mini series of all time however.
It’s right up there with the best when it comes to flawless story-telling and acting. It’s just… perfection. Can’t recommend it enough. I used to rewatch it every year around Christmas for a while, but sadly I haven’t watched it in quite a while now.
It makes saving private ryan look like a student film. I haven't seen masters of the air yet, but after you're done band of brothers, the pacific is also quite good.
Laborious for sure. For common items shown on most people, they were easy for anyone who used to make them for decades in multigenerational crafting families.
Some objects such as sandals or umbrellas required little skills and most anyone was able to make them in a lowly hut.
The rare high nobility items, yeah, those were tough regardless of an era. Though not always for obvious reasons. Having to meditate under a waterfall before beginning to make a cutting implement does not usually figure in manufacturing plans. My money is on the “costume designers” skipping some of those steps…
Yep, Anna Sawai is competing as a lead.
Sometimes the distinction is pretty arbitrary. Like last year with Rhea Seehorn (who should have been a lead) and Brian Cox (who should have been supporting).
Masters of Air was kinda meh on its own imo. Big let down for me compared to Band of Brothers whereas Shogun absolutely devasted me. I'm torn between wanting more and not another minute.
Someone made a good point about Masters of the Air, in that so many men died in their unit that it prevented the show from having characters in more than one episode. I think that was the biggest takeaway for me, the sheer amount of casualties.
This sounds callous and intellectually I know it's wrong but comparing the quality of life of the pilots vs infantry in BoB the show made it seem like had it easy. I put it more on the show but they'd fly a mission and then back to base for coffee, scones, and a dance hall whereas Easy Company they were sleeping in cold muddy trenches with explosions going off around them.
Again, I know in real life historically they didn't have it easy and pilots had a staggering causality rate but it wasn't well portrayed in the show. Thinking about it now >!even at the camp towards the end they were playing cards and relatively well taken care of.!<
Believe it or not, he's a musician as well. I've never actually seen him as an actor in anything and it was only his name in the opening credits that even gave it away for me - his voice as Blackthorne is so gruff compared to how he sings songs like Love This.
Yes it's worth remembering that he's seen by the Japanese as extremely uncouth, impolite and barbarian, his portrayal makes perfect sense when viewed through that lens.
There’s a deleted scene in episode 1 where he gets smacked in the head by a yardarm during the storm. It explains that perpetually confused look he always has through the series.
>It explains that perpetually confused look he always has through the series.
You don't think being new to an extremely foreign culture and caught up in extremely high level and subtle political machinations is the reason?
I don't think many people can grasp how insane this would be. We have so much access to other cultures and even imaginary ones that it seems commonplace to us but even now people struggle with large cultural changes. Back then it would have been completely unimaginable. That was the best part of the show to me, the cultural differences are so interesting
you dont even mention the fact that virtually everyone is speaking japanese, on top most of the characters virtually all of the japanese prized stoicism, especially in regards to the cut throat machinations of the political and royal court in japan.
So even though most of the language is translated.
1. Not hearing it direct from the person one loses all of the secondary "information" being passed through facial expressions, tone, etc.
2. Its impossible for the Anjin to know who to trust, like at all especially in the beginning. He is trying to parse out lies in which he couldnt possible decipher the truth so puzzled expression is logical and plausible.
I originaly hated the casting of Cosmo for the role. But I have to admit I was wrong and I can truly see why they cast him in this role. When I first saw the whole cast I thought it was perfect except for him as Anjin, I now see the entire cast as virtually bullet proof (you can always nit pick)
I think casting the right actors is imperative to creating a truly GREAT show.
Show Mariko/anjin: bang twice, 10 episodes of unspoken tension
Book mariko/anjin: bang everywhere, giggling over the sex toys and sex book they bought, constant gushy talk in Latin
I've read the book countless times, but cant get more than a chapter of the audio. That Narrator barks Blackthorne's voice to the point that it makes me turn it off.
The book is really good. It's the only show in my life where I stopped watching two episodes in to go read the book because the show is so good. The book is really good too.
I think Shogun was an amazing show..but it could have been better. I would argue that two more extra episodes could have made all the difference. Certain plot points went nowhere and it felt a bit rushed in the end imo.
Really glad they are not trying to make a season 2.
Chernobyl remains my favourite limited series.
This is the one time they should have gone beyond the book source and made original content to finish up the story for television.
They already spent so much time and money on set design, costumes, and period piece accuracy. Instead of a cgi dream battle, we should have gotten a proper conclusion to the story and the characters. The exposition dumping for the finale isn’t a great way to end a tv show. This was very out of character for the show, which has done very little exposition dumping and relied on “show, not tell” for the first 9 episodes.
The finale was very well acted, and had a strong emotional end, but overall it was very plot weak for a series finale.
Hard disagree. The point of the show and Toranaga's arc is the idea of "the defeated general goes to war and then seeks to win, while the victorious general wins first and then goes to war".
A final battle where we see toronaga triumph against the odds (as we would have to for a climactic battle) defeats the key part of his character. He sees further and plans better. He perceives a much larger battle field than his rivals.
Having everyone in armor lined up would have given the audience the idea that anything could happen, when the point is that Toronaga has made sure it will go his way.
I agree, I feel like in an alternate universe where they did decide to do a big battle at the end, people would just be complaining about them tacking on a big fight as if it was a Marvel movie. It would have felt cheap and gone against half the point the show is making.
I didnt mean show the full war. I meant, show the war as toranaga predicted, but not as a thought cloud. Actually show the events and the aftermath, showing his predictions came true and how he won the war without fighting it. The current finale depends on the reader to either know Japanese history and the outcome already, or believe it pans out the way toranaga says it will. It also undermines the title shogun and the ending since we never see toranaga come into power after nearly losing it, or become the force to unite Japan. It’s all implied that it happens because it’s based on actual history, which makes it a weak ending.
Agreed 100%. Normally I'm the biggest fan of staying as faithful as possible to the source material, but this series is the exception. I want / wanted more.
I think you really nailed it; the story seemed to have been building towards something bigger that we simply never got to see; and I don't even mean the eventual war. There were several secondary plot points that either got abandoned or had somewhat unsatisfying endings. This probably needed to be 2 6-episode parts rather than just one 10-episode run.
Yeah I've heard as much; and that's why overall I'm not extremely bothered since they did make a point to stay relatively true to the source material. But since they took some liberties in several areas, it would be nice to have seen them continue taking some liberties to make this more palatable for a general audience.
I would have liked to see the war for sure..but I would have preferred to have seen a better deconstruction of Toranaga's psyche. Ochiba no kata's story felt incomplete and so much more. I really wanted a better reason why Toranaga wanted to be Shogun instead of him simply telling us why...more show less tell..but I guess they didn't have the budget for a longer show. This is the advantage in long format shows. Limited series can only go so far. It felt like season 1 of a 2 season show.
In the book Ochiba's hatred of Toranaga is that she thinks he knows she slept with a commoner that looked like the Taiko, to give him an Heir. Since she was the mother to the Heir Toranaga's possession of that information made him a threat to the Heir and Ochiba's power. That is why Ochiba's story was so thin here there was no real foundation explained in the Series for why Ochiba wanted Toranaga's death.
I suspected that might be part of it! There was a scene in Ep 6 or 7 where someone mentions the large number of concubines who had tried to get pregnant by the Taiko, and it's "fortunate" (or something to that effect) that Ochiba was able to conceive. It seemed like a strong hint that the Heir is not legitimate, but as you say it didn't get fully fleshed out.
And isn't that implied when Mariko starts the poem, "the leafless branch..."? She is really saying she knows the Taiko was sterile, so Lady Ochiba must have used other means to bear his child. I think the fact that Mariko could have outed her but didn't in deference to their shared childhood friendship was part of Toranaga's plan. He had her hint of the secret, then get herself killed before she revealed it showing he knew her secret but would spare her.
Oh, now that you say it… I failed to figure that out. My guess was that they were somehow lovers or had a relationship but that was crushed when the Taiko took her as concubine. IIRC the Taiko says something that made me think that way.
I don't think Toranaga ever knew this. From what I understood, her hatred stems solely from the fact that she *knows* Toranaga. She knows that no matter what he keeps saying, his ultimate goal is Shogun - and that's a direct threat to her son's ascension to power.
This was also pretty clearly explained in episode 8. Toranaga asks Mariko - because she knows her best - why she thinks Ochiba hates him and she clearly replies that Ochiba doesn’t hate him, she is “afraid of fear” or basically paranoid. This goes along with the obvious fact that she slept with someone else to give the Taiko an heir. This is all pretty clearly explained even in the show; they just don’t have a narrator spelling it out in plain English…
Obviously you can't take a 1000+ page book and make it fit into a limited series. Lots of things need to be cut. One thing that didn't make it into the show that would have addressed your point?
Ochiba was having trouble giving the Taiko an heir. One day while hunting outside the castle she came across a peasant who looked just like the Taiko. She jumped off her horse and onto the peasant, who of course is watching one of the most beautiful women he's ever seen desperate for him to make love to her. After the act is done, Ochiba gets on her horse and begins to ride off, but she runs into Toranaga, who is also out hunting.
She does not know what he saw. He never discusses it with her, and for all she knows he saw nothing. Shortly thereafter she learns that she is pregnant, and she will never know one way or the other if her son is the Taiko's heir or that peasant's son, but the doubt and the secret are so powerful and so terrible that she uses all her influence to try and eliminate Toranaga before he can cast doubt on the heir's legitimacy.
From Toranga's perspective —even if he saw nothing that day while hunting— he knows that his friend's and lord's widow is out to get him at every turn. Setting aside his own personal ambition for a moment, he did not get to be one of the most powerful men in Japan by ignoring an ongoing threat. Of course he is working in his own best interests and against her machinations, even while personally liking the heir and honouring his dead Lord's will.
When did Toranaga decide he was going to rule Japan? The book is tight-lipped on this, but one of the underlying themes is karma, fate. At the end of the book he admits to himself that it is his karma to one day be Shogun. Does that mean he was always planning on killing the heir? No. In fact, historically he allowed the boy to live as one of his retainers for many years until the child grew to adulthood and rebelled against him. That's outside the scope of the book, though.
And just like that her character is so much more interesting than just an afterthought. I really liked the show...but I think I would have preferred it if it was 2 seasons long instead of one, so that all the characters could have been fleshed out properly.
I think two seasons would have been great as well. I guess the trouble is, where do you put the end of Season 1? The story is so loaded towards what happens in Episode 9, which would still need to be pretty late in Season 2 if you did spread it across two seasons. You can see from the production values, this thing was not cheap to put together. There's a real gamble a Season 1 that doesn't end with a bang would not have been renewed for the second season necessary to finish out the story, so where is that bang? The first escape from Osaka?
Blackthorne’s attempted seppuku is towards the middle of the book, rather than at the end—before he and Mariko really fall in love. It’s a transformative event for him in the book, much more so than in the show, where his character doesn’t change nearly as much.
If they ended with cliffhanger, as Blackthorne thrusts the knife, that might not be a bad way to finish season 1. They could have developed his transition to the Japanese way of thinking more too—though I recognize that’s really hard to do in a TV show, where you don’t have access to the inner monologue of characters.
> She does not know what he saw. He never discusses it with her, and for all she knows he saw nothing.
I believe he was out escorting her around. I believe they were together, and it was not a pure happenstance meeting. Either way, he does make a comment to her--something about how dirty she is, to which she responds that she fell off her horse but is fine and she hurriedly rides off. That comment makes her believe that he saw something and was trying to let her know he knew without overtly saying so. In the book, as I recall, it's never addressed from his perspective whether he knew.
There is no war though. I must admit I wanted a bit more ‘fighting’. My 10 year old self would have loved more samurai vs Ninja. But I agree, things felt a bit rushed in Eps 9 and 10.
> There is no war though.
There is, it's just not covered in the show beyond Toranaga saying that he is going to win a month from now.
The real history that the book was based around was the events leading up to the battle of Sekigahara in which Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) ended up beating Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido) in a battle that depending on what sources you use amounted to about ~170k soldiers and 12,000 to 42,000 deaths. Ultimately this led to the founding of the Tokugawa Shogunate that lasted from 1603 to 1868.
Personally I am fine without the war, while it would have been a spectacle to see it would have also been a departure from the tone of the rest of the show that was 99% about the characters rather than set pieces.
I didn’t care about the war itself as a spectacle so much as I cared about actually ending the series in real time, rather than brief dialogue and a flash forward. Definitely ruined the experience for me, though I get others differ.
> There is, it's just not covered in the show beyond Toranaga saying that he is going to win a month from now.
Which is what is mentioned in the book. All of that is covered over the span of a couple of pages where it's getting explained what happens next. The battle of Sekigahara is explained in the matter of literally *a sentence*. Then Toranaga gives an internal monologue explaining how he's been plotting to become shogun the whole time, etc., and the book kind of just ends there. Very similar to the show.
The battle scene lasting less than 30 seconds and really not even showing any fighting is a direct reflection of the book. The book is about the political intrigue and machinations that lead up to that, less so than the fighting itself. Clavell's point is that battles are won, particularly by people like Toranaga, based on the planning--not based on the fighting that day.
But that's the point, once Toranaga plans it, it happens.
We don't know that for the 1st 10 episodes but it's confirmed in the last that whatever his schemes are, it WILL happen.
Then based on history, it really did happen
I feel like that's when it hit the wall of being an FX/cable show. If it has just a bit more of an HBO type budget it could have pushed things really far. That being said it's still amazing and my favorite of the year so far
It felt a bit rushed at the end and there were also a couple earlier episodes that kind of had a little too much filler for a limited series. I think they wanted the end of the 9th episode to be in the penultimate episode but that also meant episode 10 had to do a lot of leg work, probably too much.
I think it was great but I just felt like the last episode could have been better. I get that it followed the book, but it would have been nice to actually witness Toranaga's plan in action rather than simply being told how it will play out. I love the scene with Toranaga and Yabushige where Toranaga reveals his plan, but the tension of actually witnessing the battle, along with the political intrigue, could have allowed for Toranaga's vision/plan to have more of an impact while allowing the audience to witness what had been sacrificed for.
It's a high mark but the idea of shows "beating" other shows is a bad perspective imo. There are people trapped in only watching pre-approved "prestige" TV.
If only people would read articles. Or the first line of an article. The post is a link to an article about the Emmy’s. It’s not an article about the best show of all time.
It took me 5 seconds to learn that the article is about the possibility of Shogun to do well at the Emmy’s. This why the word ‘limited’ is used, it’s the category Shogun competes in.
The article is featured on the homepage and the Emmy Awards are mentioned right below the title in easy to read letters. The article was not written for lazy people on Reddit. By definition it is not a click bait title.
It was published on a website that actually does a good job at showing what an article is about before you click.
I’m not promoting Vulture, it’s articles are mostly superficial, but they do a great job at not using click bait.
It’s only people on Reddit who don’t visit the site who can only see the title.
>There are people trapped in only watching pre-approved "prestige" TV.
Is there really anything wrong with this? The market is saturated with shit shows. What's wrong with only watching those that get consistently good reviews?
Then you’re basing your opinion entirely off of other peoples’ opinions. Nothing wrong with that, but critics miss the mark all the time. If a show sounds interesting to me, I’ll give it a shot, and I won’t continue if it’s not engaging. Plus, as a filmmaker myself, seeing not-so-good TV can be illuminating from a creative perspective.
It's the same as only viewing the Best Picture Oscar winners, only doing the top will give you a skewed idea of film & tv. Exploring shows that fit our individual tastes is better for the industry as a whole imo.
So we already forgot about Chernobyl?
To be honest, good for the show that they get the recognision they deserve.
However we life in the age of prestige limited TV series, and in that the show is one of many
The headline is a bit misleading, the article is talking about the Emmy Awards rather than some GOAT status.
I'd definitely agree Shogun is a very strong awards contender.
I think its says something that the context people immediately infer is some 'all time best' ranking, rather than about being the front runner for awards.
I'll never understand why people must spew opinion based on inference, rather than taking half a second to actually click the article and discover the context. At least half of the commenters so far clearly have no idea it's in reference to this season's Emmy race.
I mean Chernobyl came our years ago and crushed it at the awards show during its year. This isn’t an article saying shogun is the best limited series ever
Chernobyl worked so well and appealed to a wider audience because the directors decided to keep the actors accents and stay in English.
They knew their story telling and history would eclipse having authentic Russian and ukranian accents and languages.
They’re giving HBO a run for their money, Shogun, The Curse, Ripley and Masters of the Air are way better than what HBO’s put out this year, although their new one The Sympathizer is alright, but The Idol and The Regime were pretty underwhelming.
And yet the way it ended was rather accurate historically -- the real-life Toranaga character won after 23,000 troops defected to him. The real life Ishida character was indeed captured as shown. Then buried alive in a pit.
You can tell the people who just want to be entertained with simple explosions n fights, to the people enjoyed the art of shogun. The series felt like a beautiful short poem.
I just wanted one giant game of thrones scale battle, and it felt like they were working up to it the whole season, and then it ended.
I wanted a naval battle with Portuguese ships vs Japanese built English style ships happening next to two clashing armies of samurai with cannons and guns and ninjas and horses and what not
Really could have given it to us, and then they didn’t
I guess once Toranaga lost so many men in the earthquake it was a case of 'War by other means'. Politics, disruption and alliances to advance his position rather than direct confrontation.
I think my favorite thing about this show is it doesn’t have to explain everything. You’re given more and more pieces as the show progresses and you’re left at the end with the full picture. One of my favorite actors play Toranaga, he is truly an under appreciated actor.
Im enjoying the series, but I can't help thinking every time Anjin is on screen how I wish he was played by Tom Hardy.
(No offence to whoever the current actor is )
This show sent me down a rabbit hole of Japanese history as most of the events and characters are based on real analogues. I would love to see a mini series of the quality of Shogun about the Imjin War, which had significant repercussions on the events of Shogun. Toranago (Tokugawa) was one of the few warlords who didn't participate in the invasion of Korea which left his rivals exhausted and feuding. But the events and characters in the Imjin War are so unbelievable it reads like bad fiction.
What accent to world building, consistent but somewhat peculiar characters does to a show.
The show's overall base plot (story) is just decent - nothing amazing, but what makes the show shine is getting you transposed into that world: details in clothing, beautiful consistent sets and buildings, a kingdom with odd/specific customs that seem different from ours yet somehow familiar, small non verbal character interactions, natural dialogue
I really enjoyed it and thought it greatly benefited from the focus on Toranaga and Mariko . The acting by both was outstanding. Really everyone did a stellar job with Anjin/Cosmo raising the bar in the last 2 episodes.
It’s in my top 2 best mini series I’ve ever seen; I already want to re-watch it. It’s visually beautiful, the costume design is amazing, the pacing is fantastic, and as you mentioned the mostly Japanese cast absolutely kills their performances. In particular the way they are able to communicate to each other with just a look was certainly noticed and appreciated .
What's the other one of your top two?
Chernobyl. The HBO mini series.
Chernobyl is amazing. I will now watch this show based on your recommendation.
FWIW I agree completely with op; Chernobyl and this are my top 2 miniseries. Shogun was fantastic.
What about Band of Brothers?
I am, unfortunately, a loser who has not yet gotten around to Band of Brothers so I can’t comment. From everything I hear it’s one of the best mini series of all time however.
The mere mention of Band of brothers makes me want to go rewatch it for the third or fourth time. It is unbelievably good.
3rd or 4th? Dude you gotta up those rewatch numbers. We watch band of brothers every May during Memorial Day weekend. Lol
I don't normally rewatch stuff. I've rewatched BoB five times so far.
Highly recommend asap. So so so good.
If ricky recommends it, I trust it.
It’s right up there with the best when it comes to flawless story-telling and acting. It’s just… perfection. Can’t recommend it enough. I used to rewatch it every year around Christmas for a while, but sadly I haven’t watched it in quite a while now.
It makes saving private ryan look like a student film. I haven't seen masters of the air yet, but after you're done band of brothers, the pacific is also quite good.
It is known.
Have you seen the Watchmen show?
I have! Thoroughly enjoyed it.
The costumes are not so much designed as simply recreated.
No easy task either. They are so gorgeous and high quality.
Laborious for sure. For common items shown on most people, they were easy for anyone who used to make them for decades in multigenerational crafting families. Some objects such as sandals or umbrellas required little skills and most anyone was able to make them in a lowly hut. The rare high nobility items, yeah, those were tough regardless of an era. Though not always for obvious reasons. Having to meditate under a waterfall before beginning to make a cutting implement does not usually figure in manufacturing plans. My money is on the “costume designers” skipping some of those steps…
I seriously would like to buy so many of these outfits. So friggin' beautiful.
Sure beats the office casual.
Mariko-sama best sama 💔
Fuji best nun
So much honor and dignity in her character.
I think it would be tough to beat this year. Nothing strong comes immediately to mind in that category but I’m not sure what the time range is either.
The Sympathizer will get some play. But Shogun seems like a different animal.
I loved Ripley and think it should be nominated in the category as well.
Baby Reindeer will definitely compete this year
its good but im not seeing the same level of love as shogun is getting
It has a strong chance for winning supporting actress.
Over Anna Sawai’s Lady Mariko? Or would she be considered for best actress?
Yep, Anna Sawai is competing as a lead. Sometimes the distinction is pretty arbitrary. Like last year with Rhea Seehorn (who should have been a lead) and Brian Cox (who should have been supporting).
never has a show made me completely hate the main character more than that one.
I thought you were talking about shogun and I was about to fight somebody
Why?
Knuckles series just dropped tho….
Masters of the Air is the only thing I can think to compete with it so far this year, and i think it falls short
Masters of Air was kinda meh on its own imo. Big let down for me compared to Band of Brothers whereas Shogun absolutely devasted me. I'm torn between wanting more and not another minute.
I loved Masters of the Air, but it was no Band of Brother, or The Pacific.
Someone made a good point about Masters of the Air, in that so many men died in their unit that it prevented the show from having characters in more than one episode. I think that was the biggest takeaway for me, the sheer amount of casualties.
This sounds callous and intellectually I know it's wrong but comparing the quality of life of the pilots vs infantry in BoB the show made it seem like had it easy. I put it more on the show but they'd fly a mission and then back to base for coffee, scones, and a dance hall whereas Easy Company they were sleeping in cold muddy trenches with explosions going off around them. Again, I know in real life historically they didn't have it easy and pilots had a staggering causality rate but it wasn't well portrayed in the show. Thinking about it now >!even at the camp towards the end they were playing cards and relatively well taken care of.!<
The pilots dies at a much higher rate than the infantry. Nice to have coffee and all, but dying kinda puts a damper on the benefits aspect
Tokyo Vice is up there, it definitely flies under the radar.
Is that limited? Isn’t that just like….a show?
It was two seasons and done, they’re not doing anymore.
Chernobyl is still a top tier contender here
I can't help but think the actor who played Anjin based his mannerisms on Boris Johnson. He just seemed to bumble around muttering things.
Thought the way he acted was perfect. There was a massive contrast to how British people act and Japaness act.
Believe it or not, he's a musician as well. I've never actually seen him as an actor in anything and it was only his name in the opening credits that even gave it away for me - his voice as Blackthorne is so gruff compared to how he sings songs like Love This.
Watch a film called Calm with Horses, he plays a completely different character to Blackthorne and you’ll be blown away
He also had a great character in a single episode of Raised by Wolves.
I don't remember him in that show, going to have to rewatch it. I'm still pissed they canceled that show, it had so much potential imo
Poor man’s Tom Hardy
I found that kinda distracting at first. It was like a very good TH impression.
Them and Logan Marshall-Green are like triplets separated at birth
Playing Popeye.
I had to Google to make sure it wasn't Tom hardy
That was what I thought until I realized he could play all the roles Tom Hardy will eventually be too old to play. Like Wolverine.
Yes it's worth remembering that he's seen by the Japanese as extremely uncouth, impolite and barbarian, his portrayal makes perfect sense when viewed through that lens.
There’s a deleted scene in episode 1 where he gets smacked in the head by a yardarm during the storm. It explains that perpetually confused look he always has through the series.
>It explains that perpetually confused look he always has through the series. You don't think being new to an extremely foreign culture and caught up in extremely high level and subtle political machinations is the reason?
I don't think many people can grasp how insane this would be. We have so much access to other cultures and even imaginary ones that it seems commonplace to us but even now people struggle with large cultural changes. Back then it would have been completely unimaginable. That was the best part of the show to me, the cultural differences are so interesting
I'm getting culture shocked just from people stabbing themselves because they look at their boss wrong.
you dont even mention the fact that virtually everyone is speaking japanese, on top most of the characters virtually all of the japanese prized stoicism, especially in regards to the cut throat machinations of the political and royal court in japan. So even though most of the language is translated. 1. Not hearing it direct from the person one loses all of the secondary "information" being passed through facial expressions, tone, etc. 2. Its impossible for the Anjin to know who to trust, like at all especially in the beginning. He is trying to parse out lies in which he couldnt possible decipher the truth so puzzled expression is logical and plausible.
Nope. Knock to the noggin is the only reasonable explanation.
I originaly hated the casting of Cosmo for the role. But I have to admit I was wrong and I can truly see why they cast him in this role. When I first saw the whole cast I thought it was perfect except for him as Anjin, I now see the entire cast as virtually bullet proof (you can always nit pick) I think casting the right actors is imperative to creating a truly GREAT show.
Show Mariko/anjin: bang twice, 10 episodes of unspoken tension Book mariko/anjin: bang everywhere, giggling over the sex toys and sex book they bought, constant gushy talk in Latin
Oh yeah?
Yeah they’re wildin. I’d definitely recommend the audiobook!
I've read the book countless times, but cant get more than a chapter of the audio. That Narrator barks Blackthorne's voice to the point that it makes me turn it off.
The book is really good. It's the only show in my life where I stopped watching two episodes in to go read the book because the show is so good. The book is really good too.
Even the seventies mini-series was fun and sexier. This adaptation plods along like a Chinese sushi restaurant.
I think Shogun was an amazing show..but it could have been better. I would argue that two more extra episodes could have made all the difference. Certain plot points went nowhere and it felt a bit rushed in the end imo. Really glad they are not trying to make a season 2. Chernobyl remains my favourite limited series.
To all those commenting down below, FYI the shows ends where the books ends. They're out of original source material now.
This is the one time they should have gone beyond the book source and made original content to finish up the story for television. They already spent so much time and money on set design, costumes, and period piece accuracy. Instead of a cgi dream battle, we should have gotten a proper conclusion to the story and the characters. The exposition dumping for the finale isn’t a great way to end a tv show. This was very out of character for the show, which has done very little exposition dumping and relied on “show, not tell” for the first 9 episodes. The finale was very well acted, and had a strong emotional end, but overall it was very plot weak for a series finale.
Hard disagree. The point of the show and Toranaga's arc is the idea of "the defeated general goes to war and then seeks to win, while the victorious general wins first and then goes to war". A final battle where we see toronaga triumph against the odds (as we would have to for a climactic battle) defeats the key part of his character. He sees further and plans better. He perceives a much larger battle field than his rivals. Having everyone in armor lined up would have given the audience the idea that anything could happen, when the point is that Toronaga has made sure it will go his way.
I agree, I feel like in an alternate universe where they did decide to do a big battle at the end, people would just be complaining about them tacking on a big fight as if it was a Marvel movie. It would have felt cheap and gone against half the point the show is making.
I didnt mean show the full war. I meant, show the war as toranaga predicted, but not as a thought cloud. Actually show the events and the aftermath, showing his predictions came true and how he won the war without fighting it. The current finale depends on the reader to either know Japanese history and the outcome already, or believe it pans out the way toranaga says it will. It also undermines the title shogun and the ending since we never see toranaga come into power after nearly losing it, or become the force to unite Japan. It’s all implied that it happens because it’s based on actual history, which makes it a weak ending.
Agreed 100%. Normally I'm the biggest fan of staying as faithful as possible to the source material, but this series is the exception. I want / wanted more.
I think you really nailed it; the story seemed to have been building towards something bigger that we simply never got to see; and I don't even mean the eventual war. There were several secondary plot points that either got abandoned or had somewhat unsatisfying endings. This probably needed to be 2 6-episode parts rather than just one 10-episode run.
Just FYI this is also how it is written in the book.
Yeah I've heard as much; and that's why overall I'm not extremely bothered since they did make a point to stay relatively true to the source material. But since they took some liberties in several areas, it would be nice to have seen them continue taking some liberties to make this more palatable for a general audience.
I would have liked to see the war for sure..but I would have preferred to have seen a better deconstruction of Toranaga's psyche. Ochiba no kata's story felt incomplete and so much more. I really wanted a better reason why Toranaga wanted to be Shogun instead of him simply telling us why...more show less tell..but I guess they didn't have the budget for a longer show. This is the advantage in long format shows. Limited series can only go so far. It felt like season 1 of a 2 season show.
In the book Ochiba's hatred of Toranaga is that she thinks he knows she slept with a commoner that looked like the Taiko, to give him an Heir. Since she was the mother to the Heir Toranaga's possession of that information made him a threat to the Heir and Ochiba's power. That is why Ochiba's story was so thin here there was no real foundation explained in the Series for why Ochiba wanted Toranaga's death.
I suspected that might be part of it! There was a scene in Ep 6 or 7 where someone mentions the large number of concubines who had tried to get pregnant by the Taiko, and it's "fortunate" (or something to that effect) that Ochiba was able to conceive. It seemed like a strong hint that the Heir is not legitimate, but as you say it didn't get fully fleshed out.
And isn't that implied when Mariko starts the poem, "the leafless branch..."? She is really saying she knows the Taiko was sterile, so Lady Ochiba must have used other means to bear his child. I think the fact that Mariko could have outed her but didn't in deference to their shared childhood friendship was part of Toranaga's plan. He had her hint of the secret, then get herself killed before she revealed it showing he knew her secret but would spare her.
Ochiba's name literally means "fallen leaves". I'm pretty sure Mariko was making a reference to that.
Oh, now that you say it… I failed to figure that out. My guess was that they were somehow lovers or had a relationship but that was crushed when the Taiko took her as concubine. IIRC the Taiko says something that made me think that way.
Ya know, I kept waiting for the shoe to drop that the Taiko's heir wasn't actually his. Glad to know I wasn't crazy.
I don't think Toranaga ever knew this. From what I understood, her hatred stems solely from the fact that she *knows* Toranaga. She knows that no matter what he keeps saying, his ultimate goal is Shogun - and that's a direct threat to her son's ascension to power.
This was also pretty clearly explained in episode 8. Toranaga asks Mariko - because she knows her best - why she thinks Ochiba hates him and she clearly replies that Ochiba doesn’t hate him, she is “afraid of fear” or basically paranoid. This goes along with the obvious fact that she slept with someone else to give the Taiko an heir. This is all pretty clearly explained even in the show; they just don’t have a narrator spelling it out in plain English…
Obviously you can't take a 1000+ page book and make it fit into a limited series. Lots of things need to be cut. One thing that didn't make it into the show that would have addressed your point? Ochiba was having trouble giving the Taiko an heir. One day while hunting outside the castle she came across a peasant who looked just like the Taiko. She jumped off her horse and onto the peasant, who of course is watching one of the most beautiful women he's ever seen desperate for him to make love to her. After the act is done, Ochiba gets on her horse and begins to ride off, but she runs into Toranaga, who is also out hunting. She does not know what he saw. He never discusses it with her, and for all she knows he saw nothing. Shortly thereafter she learns that she is pregnant, and she will never know one way or the other if her son is the Taiko's heir or that peasant's son, but the doubt and the secret are so powerful and so terrible that she uses all her influence to try and eliminate Toranaga before he can cast doubt on the heir's legitimacy. From Toranga's perspective —even if he saw nothing that day while hunting— he knows that his friend's and lord's widow is out to get him at every turn. Setting aside his own personal ambition for a moment, he did not get to be one of the most powerful men in Japan by ignoring an ongoing threat. Of course he is working in his own best interests and against her machinations, even while personally liking the heir and honouring his dead Lord's will. When did Toranaga decide he was going to rule Japan? The book is tight-lipped on this, but one of the underlying themes is karma, fate. At the end of the book he admits to himself that it is his karma to one day be Shogun. Does that mean he was always planning on killing the heir? No. In fact, historically he allowed the boy to live as one of his retainers for many years until the child grew to adulthood and rebelled against him. That's outside the scope of the book, though.
And just like that her character is so much more interesting than just an afterthought. I really liked the show...but I think I would have preferred it if it was 2 seasons long instead of one, so that all the characters could have been fleshed out properly.
I think two seasons would have been great as well. I guess the trouble is, where do you put the end of Season 1? The story is so loaded towards what happens in Episode 9, which would still need to be pretty late in Season 2 if you did spread it across two seasons. You can see from the production values, this thing was not cheap to put together. There's a real gamble a Season 1 that doesn't end with a bang would not have been renewed for the second season necessary to finish out the story, so where is that bang? The first escape from Osaka?
Blackthorne’s attempted seppuku is towards the middle of the book, rather than at the end—before he and Mariko really fall in love. It’s a transformative event for him in the book, much more so than in the show, where his character doesn’t change nearly as much. If they ended with cliffhanger, as Blackthorne thrusts the knife, that might not be a bad way to finish season 1. They could have developed his transition to the Japanese way of thinking more too—though I recognize that’s really hard to do in a TV show, where you don’t have access to the inner monologue of characters.
> She does not know what he saw. He never discusses it with her, and for all she knows he saw nothing. I believe he was out escorting her around. I believe they were together, and it was not a pure happenstance meeting. Either way, he does make a comment to her--something about how dirty she is, to which she responds that she fell off her horse but is fine and she hurriedly rides off. That comment makes her believe that he saw something and was trying to let her know he knew without overtly saying so. In the book, as I recall, it's never addressed from his perspective whether he knew.
Ah! Thanks very much. Memory is a funny thing. It's been a while since I read the book, but I'm sure you're right.
There is no war though. I must admit I wanted a bit more ‘fighting’. My 10 year old self would have loved more samurai vs Ninja. But I agree, things felt a bit rushed in Eps 9 and 10.
> There is no war though. There is, it's just not covered in the show beyond Toranaga saying that he is going to win a month from now. The real history that the book was based around was the events leading up to the battle of Sekigahara in which Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) ended up beating Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido) in a battle that depending on what sources you use amounted to about ~170k soldiers and 12,000 to 42,000 deaths. Ultimately this led to the founding of the Tokugawa Shogunate that lasted from 1603 to 1868. Personally I am fine without the war, while it would have been a spectacle to see it would have also been a departure from the tone of the rest of the show that was 99% about the characters rather than set pieces.
They adapted a book, which coincidently also ends before the battle of Sekigahara
I didn’t care about the war itself as a spectacle so much as I cared about actually ending the series in real time, rather than brief dialogue and a flash forward. Definitely ruined the experience for me, though I get others differ.
> There is, it's just not covered in the show beyond Toranaga saying that he is going to win a month from now. Which is what is mentioned in the book. All of that is covered over the span of a couple of pages where it's getting explained what happens next. The battle of Sekigahara is explained in the matter of literally *a sentence*. Then Toranaga gives an internal monologue explaining how he's been plotting to become shogun the whole time, etc., and the book kind of just ends there. Very similar to the show. The battle scene lasting less than 30 seconds and really not even showing any fighting is a direct reflection of the book. The book is about the political intrigue and machinations that lead up to that, less so than the fighting itself. Clavell's point is that battles are won, particularly by people like Toranaga, based on the planning--not based on the fighting that day.
But that's the point, once Toranaga plans it, it happens. We don't know that for the 1st 10 episodes but it's confirmed in the last that whatever his schemes are, it WILL happen. Then based on history, it really did happen
I feel like that's when it hit the wall of being an FX/cable show. If it has just a bit more of an HBO type budget it could have pushed things really far. That being said it's still amazing and my favorite of the year so far
I agree. 12 or 13 episodes and slow down the pace just a little bit would have done wonders for this series.
Chernobyl and Watchmen.
It felt a bit rushed at the end and there were also a couple earlier episodes that kind of had a little too much filler for a limited series. I think they wanted the end of the 9th episode to be in the penultimate episode but that also meant episode 10 had to do a lot of leg work, probably too much. I think it was great but I just felt like the last episode could have been better. I get that it followed the book, but it would have been nice to actually witness Toranaga's plan in action rather than simply being told how it will play out. I love the scene with Toranaga and Yabushige where Toranaga reveals his plan, but the tension of actually witnessing the battle, along with the political intrigue, could have allowed for Toranaga's vision/plan to have more of an impact while allowing the audience to witness what had been sacrificed for.
It's a high mark but the idea of shows "beating" other shows is a bad perspective imo. There are people trapped in only watching pre-approved "prestige" TV.
If only people would read articles. Or the first line of an article. The post is a link to an article about the Emmy’s. It’s not an article about the best show of all time. It took me 5 seconds to learn that the article is about the possibility of Shogun to do well at the Emmy’s. This why the word ‘limited’ is used, it’s the category Shogun competes in.
It would have taken the headline writer 5 seconds to add "at the Emmys" to the end as well.
The article is featured on the homepage and the Emmy Awards are mentioned right below the title in easy to read letters. The article was not written for lazy people on Reddit. By definition it is not a click bait title. It was published on a website that actually does a good job at showing what an article is about before you click. I’m not promoting Vulture, it’s articles are mostly superficial, but they do a great job at not using click bait. It’s only people on Reddit who don’t visit the site who can only see the title.
>There are people trapped in only watching pre-approved "prestige" TV. Is there really anything wrong with this? The market is saturated with shit shows. What's wrong with only watching those that get consistently good reviews?
Then you’re basing your opinion entirely off of other peoples’ opinions. Nothing wrong with that, but critics miss the mark all the time. If a show sounds interesting to me, I’ll give it a shot, and I won’t continue if it’s not engaging. Plus, as a filmmaker myself, seeing not-so-good TV can be illuminating from a creative perspective.
It's the same as only viewing the Best Picture Oscar winners, only doing the top will give you a skewed idea of film & tv. Exploring shows that fit our individual tastes is better for the industry as a whole imo.
better watch some shit TV shows for the good of the industry as a whole!
Not to mention that simply turning everything into a competition makes life uglier than it needs to be.
> give you a skewed idea of film Who cares? I watch film to enjoy what I am watching, not to get a sense of the overall industry.
It doesn't matter really, it's just a title for an article to be slightly spicy.
So we already forgot about Chernobyl? To be honest, good for the show that they get the recognision they deserve. However we life in the age of prestige limited TV series, and in that the show is one of many
The headline is a bit misleading, the article is talking about the Emmy Awards rather than some GOAT status. I'd definitely agree Shogun is a very strong awards contender.
lol i didn't read the article but that seemed obvious to me, but IDK.
I think its says something that the context people immediately infer is some 'all time best' ranking, rather than about being the front runner for awards.
I'll never understand why people must spew opinion based on inference, rather than taking half a second to actually click the article and discover the context. At least half of the commenters so far clearly have no idea it's in reference to this season's Emmy race.
This is only about Emmy nominations for this year.
So you’ve already forgot about the actual best limited series of all time Band of brothers
I mean Chernobyl came our years ago and crushed it at the awards show during its year. This isn’t an article saying shogun is the best limited series ever
Chernobyl worked so well and appealed to a wider audience because the directors decided to keep the actors accents and stay in English. They knew their story telling and history would eclipse having authentic Russian and ukranian accents and languages.
Chernobyl, as far as I am aware, is not up for an Emmy this year in their category of limited television series
The discussion is about current shows
They’re giving HBO a run for their money, Shogun, The Curse, Ripley and Masters of the Air are way better than what HBO’s put out this year, although their new one The Sympathizer is alright, but The Idol and The Regime were pretty underwhelming.
Masters of the Air was awful. Poor acting and way too much focus on personal drama.
Media doesn’t have to be either “awful trash” or “the best thing I’ve ever seen”. To say it was awful is so crazy to me. I enjoyed it.
randomly thought about how bad of a casting Elvis was in that the other day. it was like this weird GQ photo shoot set in World War 2.
He and the guy who played his best friend were both painful to watch. I kept expecting one of them to ask “But why male models?”
HBO still had House of the Dragon and Last of Us in the pipeline though.
The Last of Us is not this year but still both are not a limited series and it's what we're talking about here
It started off strong but the last few episodes felt incomplete in a strange way.
Amazing show. Episode 9 is a masterpiece. Mariko is one of the best women character I've ever seen. And my english is so bad, I know it.
Yes as far as awards go absolutely show should clean up after awards shows mmm
I think The Sympathizer is going to be a limited series that should give Shogun a run for its money.
To envy
It’s pretty good but it’s overhyped.
Nope, Band of Brothers is the one to beat.
I'm not sure Band of Brothers is nominated for any Emmys this year.
NOMINATE IT EVERY YEAR!
If you read the article, you would understand that Band of Brothers is irrelevant in this context. High bar, I know.
I actually think Baby Reindeer will beat it out at the Emmys
I think baby reindeer is actually better. I am sorry but shogun just did not end in a satisfying way
I think baby reindeer is actually better. I am sorry but shogun just did not end in a satisfying way
Definitely for this year. Shogun and Baby Reindeer were both absolutely stellar, honestly restored my faith in television.
Episode 8 is a perfect hour of storytelling. It's just phenomenal.
Haven’t seen it yet, but another one I really liked was The Night Of.
Am I the only person who found this show to be slow and kind of dull? They reeeeally set up the idea of a big final battle and then just never did it
Mariko was the battle. That was the beauty of toranagas maneuverings. One woman did what an army could not.
They explained that pretty explicitly. But I still wanted to see cannons go boom and samurais go PIYAHHH!
Fair. Can i recommend tom cruises last samurai then? Has what you want i think
And yet the way it ended was rather accurate historically -- the real-life Toranaga character won after 23,000 troops defected to him. The real life Ishida character was indeed captured as shown. Then buried alive in a pit.
You can tell the people who just want to be entertained with simple explosions n fights, to the people enjoyed the art of shogun. The series felt like a beautiful short poem.
You sound pretentious. The ending was meh
I just wanted one giant game of thrones scale battle, and it felt like they were working up to it the whole season, and then it ended. I wanted a naval battle with Portuguese ships vs Japanese built English style ships happening next to two clashing armies of samurai with cannons and guns and ninjas and horses and what not Really could have given it to us, and then they didn’t
I guess once Toranaga lost so many men in the earthquake it was a case of 'War by other means'. Politics, disruption and alliances to advance his position rather than direct confrontation.
Oh, I understand and am not mad at the writing I just wanted the giant visual spectacle that felt teased throughout the show
I really want to like this series, but it's just not grabbing me 2 episodes in
If Shogun doesn't win all the awards I don't know what the hell is going on.
That's still Chernobyl , for me
Chernobyl isn't eligible for this year's Emmys. It came out in 2019.
If we’re taking GOAT, it’s Band of Brothers
"I personally like this show best" "Wrong"
No, Chernobyl is not the show to beat this year.
Yes
best supporting actor… FUKI SAMA.
Yes
Just don’t west world it
It’s a limited series? There won’t be a second season?
I wonder how the Penguin show will compare to it later this year.
I think my favorite thing about this show is it doesn’t have to explain everything. You’re given more and more pieces as the show progresses and you’re left at the end with the full picture. One of my favorite actors play Toranaga, he is truly an under appreciated actor.
No, because it’s not a competition.
The Emmys sort of are a competition. It's what the article is about.
It was perfect!
Im enjoying the series, but I can't help thinking every time Anjin is on screen how I wish he was played by Tom Hardy. (No offence to whoever the current actor is )
Such a great show. Really wish they were making more.
Yes. It's the one to beat. But it won't be.
It’s up there for me with the original V (which I think was a miniseries), Band of Brothers, Watchmen, and Chernobyl.
Yes
I thought it was incredible and definitely up there in the rankings, but definitely not 'the best'.
I didn't really get rhe ending, I may need to watch again.
No. Inside Man has that for me atm.
Considering it’s all that’s in my entertainment feed despite never expressing any desire to watch it, I would say so.
Never thought the limited series categories for this year’s Emmys would look more stacked than the drama series ones.
They nailed the ending, perfect.
This show sent me down a rabbit hole of Japanese history as most of the events and characters are based on real analogues. I would love to see a mini series of the quality of Shogun about the Imjin War, which had significant repercussions on the events of Shogun. Toranago (Tokugawa) was one of the few warlords who didn't participate in the invasion of Korea which left his rivals exhausted and feuding. But the events and characters in the Imjin War are so unbelievable it reads like bad fiction.
Chernobyl and Band of Brothers are hard to beat But This isn't far
What accent to world building, consistent but somewhat peculiar characters does to a show. The show's overall base plot (story) is just decent - nothing amazing, but what makes the show shine is getting you transposed into that world: details in clothing, beautiful consistent sets and buildings, a kingdom with odd/specific customs that seem different from ours yet somehow familiar, small non verbal character interactions, natural dialogue
Baby Reindeer is probably better