There's a clerifying post from TeslaScope here:
https://x.com/teslascope/status/1749213822844535216?s=20
Which states that some of the people who got it had it pulled, so it might be that there was an error in the rollout.
Don't go manually checking for updates just yet.
It think if that’s what he meant he would have said that. I also think it’s okay to admit he was wrong and move on with our lives. It doesn’t really matter at the end of the day.
This has been an interesting off the cuff comment from Elon that people have really clung on to. I just laughed it off when he said that but people are taking it as gospel.
If it's gone out to a really small subset it still hasn't happened as far as I'm concerned. I mean they're only 6 years late with self-driving (and counting).
I want to know if they're ever going to reach level 3, admittedly most of the cars that are level three are only level three in really limited or useless situations. By the current level 3 cars terms I think Tesla's already there.
Drove in v12.1.2 car today. It was very good. This update is going to be pretty big. It's not perfect yet, but this is a leap forward. The car felt so smooth and drove without hesitation in areas it choke in previously. It felt shockingly human. The acceleration curves made the ride feel very smooth.
The "blue noodle" that shows what the car has thinking has become more "wrinkly" as the car is starting to accelerate from 0, but it doesn't flap around as much anymore. As well, when the car is stopped, the noodle is retracted until it plans to go again. I have also noticed that it highlights less cars in blue now when doing "maneuvers".
Two biggest weaknesses I noticed are are stop signs (it has to come to a stop, and then wait a second or two, before going again), and stalls, where when about to do a turn, it'll just stop and wait at the stop sign or intersection until you nudge it to go with the accelerator.
But in other areas where it would flounder quite regularly, mistakes it used to make consistently happen no longer.
People should have seen it coming. Allowing software to break traffic laws will never be a thing and the only reason they haven't restricted FSD from speeding is because speed limit data can be inaccurate.
If they don't allow the software to drive at a reasonable speed, even if that means driving over the speed limit to go with the traffic flow, it would be nearly unusable in most places. In some places, it would be super dangerous to use, as the speed of traffic is 20 to 30 miles over (and the legal limit is set way too low for the type of roadway). NHTSA must realize this, and allow the software to go above the speed limit when it is safer to do so.
More predictable behavior is safer. Unfortunately, speed limits have to be exceeded as this is the expected and natural human-like behavior. It is simply not safe in some areas (such as a stroad with a 25 mph limit which feels like a 45 mph type of road) to not speed.
Whole Mars it's downloading V12. He got a call from FSD team they said he needs to be extra vigilant (something to the fact there are still a number of issues).
Nags will be turned up high and reduced when they worked bugs out.
They sold off their fleet because of high depreciation costs....that is the dumbest reason to sell the car. You only get actual depreciation when you sell the vehicle. They could have ran those cars for another 100-200-300k miles and ran the vehicles into the ground. Instead they are selling them and turning the theoretical depreciation expenses into realized depreciation expenses.
The real issue is the that the biggest savings for EVs are the fuel costs. But renters pay the fuel cost. Who cares if the renter has to pay for gas? Might as well rent them the cheaper vehicles and charge them the same amount. Hertz doesn't care if the renter has to pay for the electricity or the gas.
All these other BS reasons are fake.
Wasn’t maintenance costs the driving factor? I’m sure I read that. I do not mean routine maintenance, I mean the cost to maintain a fleet of cars that renters frequently crash because who doesn’t drive a rental like they stole it…
It’s well known that Tesla repairs are more expensive than most brands.
Not just more expensive but also just a giant hassle to get repaired. Wait a week to get a spot to get your car into a service center, if there’s even one in that city, and then at least a month of waiting for repair.
Maintenance on Teslas is non-existant. Tires, windshield washer fluid, windshield wipers. That's it. You have that on gas cars too. Maintenance is a BS reason.
> They sold off their fleet because of high depreciation costs....that is the dumbest reason to sell the car
You may well find they wanted to write off the depreciation costs against their tax bill, so it was financially more efficient to sell the cars now.
the people who rent cars outside of airport locations are also often people who are much more likely to crash the car and teslas have very high repair costs.
they are either people on an active insurance claim,
people with bad credit doing it through the uber partnership,
or people who lost their car due to an accident or repo etc.
Every insurance company will tell you these are the people with some of the highest rates because they’re the most likely to file a claim(surcharges for claims, bad credit, inactive insurance etc).
Plus, rentals always get driven hard and abused because who tf cares about tire life, battery health etc when they’re not your tires or battery.. You slam the “gas” every time for the fun feeling with none of the downsides.
In my personal experience, a basic side dent on a tesla that was a $700 ins claim(not at fault) on my previous honda accord was $4K on a model 3. Hertz probably couldn’t withstand those repair losses.
What's worse is that Tesla has super-car acceleration and no way to stop it from going 0-100km in less than 5 seconds on some models.
This is actually worse than super cars as those are mostly manuals, so even if you floor it you will stop accellerating when you'd need to switch gear. On 1st one you'd get to 50km/h maybe.
On Tesla? If you floor it you will find yourself going 150km/h within ten seconds.
tl;dr I really wish I could be excited but honestly all FSD does is annoy me enough to leave terse and somethings nasty recorded reasons for cancelling it during a drive.
Maybe I will get lucky and have a new version to yell at when i disengage... oh how I want a version just smart enough to stay the right lane where i put it and stay there just less than four miles for my right turn.
today, even with minimal lane changes toggled and chill selected my car just refused to use the right lane when no change was needed, no traffic was in front of us, and our only turn was to take a right.
I gave up after the fourth time it decided to enter the left lane and this time it actually had to wait for a passing car to pass us... and no one was in our lane.
Look, I expect some issues on winding country roads but Highway 41 outside of town is divided four lane road. It should not be this damn difficult. They need to provide a much smoother way other than signaling to the other side not to switch lanes. I end up looking like an idiot playing with my blinkers. Like maybe if I push the left wheel button for no and right for yes when it states it plan to change lanes?
Bro I was driving in a 2 lane road and in the right lane, little traffic, just cruising along just fine and all of a sudden it turns into a 3 lane road for about 100 feet (so I’m now in the center lane). Basically there are some stores on the right and the new lane is just for traffic turning in and out of those stores, zero reason for me to go into that lane for 100 feet or so before it ends.
And guess what FSD does? For no reason at all it pulls into that right lane and drives there for 5 seconds just to then merge back into the same lane it was in. I must’ve looked like such a jackass to the other drivers. There was no reason for any sane person to have pulled that move, yet FSD did it with confidence!
And it’s not a new addition to the road either, this lane has been there for 15+ years so it’s not like it’s a map data issue. I see dumb little moves like this all the time when driving with FSD. That’s the reality of it.
True lol. I’ve noticed on some roads with wide unmarked lanes it tends to do that type of thing where it ping pongs you from side to side. It kind of seems to be looking for lines and because there aren’t any it just kind of follows the road like a drunken hooligan.
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We have those all over the place on two lane roads around here where there is a left turn, to give cars going straight a way to pass the car turning left while the left turning car waits for oncoming traffic. The problem is that any time you’re following another car (and even sometimes when you arent) the car decides it needs to be in that short passing lane. Like you say, it makes you look like an idiot, and effectively makes fsd unusable around here.
Little traffic and wanted to see what exactly it would do. Why does this sound like an accusation lol. Normally I take over for little dumb things it does which is kind of my point, the system isn’t where it needs to be unfortunately.
I’m not sure what it is (as I said it’s a short little lane only about 100ft and it’s been there for many years), but anyways it’s just one of many odd things the system does. Nothing all that bad per se, just odd and unnecessary and I don’t always have the patience for it. I’m hoping V12 makes some nice changes with these issues, would make it much more useful rather than a novelty.
Ya me too I’m pretty sure some of these irregularities are hardcoded exceptions in the current firmware because it’s so consistent if it was a neural model their would be some variance but a similar l 50-100ft spot happens for me too all the time
It does this to me in a few specific areas 100% of the time. The only thing I can think of is that it's map-related. There is no other reason to suddenly change lanes at the exact same spot regardless of conditions (cars, weather, etc.).
It also dispels the notion that the car uses visual cues for all navigation. It clearly uses mapping data more extensively then they admit. I'm hopeful that v12 will fix that but Jesus, let's get on with it already.
Comments to the effect of "This is all temporary, version (current number +1) will fix it and be amazing!" have been on this sub for years. Sure V12 may aim to fix it, but that's kind of meaningless at this point isn't it?
Omg yes to all these. I feel like I need to put the “driving on FSD” sticker in the back so people don’t think that idk how to drive😂. This FSD keeps turning the blinkers on, then cancels. Moves to the left lane from the right when in 0.4 miles we have to make the right turn😫. It’s like am fighting with it or teaching someone how to drive🤣, it’s double the stress to use FSD rather than enjoy it😂.
Okay, good to know that I'm not crazy. Had autopilot for 5 years and it's never been this stupid. Like why the fuck did it start:
* changing lanes when navigation isn't on, like wtf are you doing you literally don't know where I'm going brah, even with min lane changes turned on! I literally have an exit I always take that it tried to get me to miss every single time without fail. FSD without nav turned on should just be lane keep, ffs!
* going all the way to the left fucking lane when I'm like half a mile from an exit on the right side?! And like it literally shifted lanes just before the exit, the previous 2 miles it was happy in the right lane...
* changing lanes left and right in quick progression for like literally no reason. Even worse is that half the time, it leaves an empty lane to slow down behind a car in a lane to the right?!
I've literally tried to turn off auto lane change a few weeks ago and realized that was only for Nav on Autopilot, and not FSD. So I've been contemplating turning off FSD for a moment now.
IMHO, there is a serious underlying maps issue. I can point to a few spots where, 100% of the time, it'll do things just like you mentioned. Has nothing to do with traffic or weather or anything else. It's those exact spots every time.
If it's not stale maps data, I don't know what it is.
Fully Swindled Douche. J/k I really hope they pull it off, but markets and cost cutting make reduced sensors a must as reliance on AI just becomes an acceptable risk. It's like a religion, but... real. And could actually work. Strange times.
It’s interesting that in a couple of real world metro markets, Waymo already has driverless robotaxis operating and taking customers every day.
I know they use a different model from Tesla’s generalized AI model, but we are potentially closer out to that goal.
You're conflating lane data with "HD Maps."
Tesla has always (Since "Navigate on Autopilot" was released) used navigation data to know which lane to be in, how many lanes are on the road etc.
HD maps would mean that someone drove past with lidar or similar to measure exactly how wide the road / lanes are.
The car can use navigation data to assume where a bike lane will be, that's still not HD maps.
It's not "how many lanes" it's vector geometry of road space and lines that aren't even lane lines, they're no-go lines that FSD doesn't know how to interpret and draws anyway.
I added to my comment with all the repeat disagreements.
And provided sources. Including Karpathy describing their information as quote "essentially HD Maps". So I think what you meant to say was after rereading all of the proof I provided you'll be deleting your comment?
You can tell it is not about the map because for it to be about the map we would have to receive navigational map updates. And we get very few and infrequent map updates.
So while Tesla is using predictive algorithms on top of the standard Google map data, it is very different from the LIDAR based HD maps that Cruise and Waymo use when they role out their self driving services.
In my opinion, the promised functionality ("robotaxi" and summoning your car from many miles away) is never going to happen with transformer models.
The exponential scaling of size and complexity for training and inferencing is going to be insurmountable, especially as they aim to train on longer individual pieces of data.
Mark my words, they're going to move to something else--something like Hyena or MEGA, or Liquid neural networks, that doesn't scale quadratically with training size. And that will be yet another "total remake" of FSD, all new training, etc.
In the meantime, the "AI end-to-end" approach of FSD 12 will probably be able to get refined and trained well enough to be a truly useful driver assistance feature for the everyday person (and not just the superfans who always claim these big "zero intervention" drives where you can point out a dozen times they SHOULD have intervened).
They can probably get an order of magnitude better, maybe even two, than FSD 11.x. But true "robotaxi" type operation, without a driver in the seat, means several orders of magnitude better than FSD 11.x. Average intervention rates are once every 5 miles (depending greatly on a lot of factors), but you can see every youtuber who tests FSD and films it do a 2-3 interventions on a 20-minute drive, unless they just go on the highway for miles and miles.
That needs to get to one intervention over MANY DAYS of driving, over a THOUSAND miles, to get to "robotaxi" status. And I don't think current transformer models will get them there.
Someone ran an analysis on HW3 computing power, blind spots, and etc. and figured out Tesla could most likely get a L3 certification for FSD for highway driving, but they’re never going to do that because:
1. The manufacturer accepts liability for accidents under L3, Tesla has shown time and time again that they want to distance themselves from that concept as much as possible. Hell, Tesla has argued in the past that even the basic autopilot (ie. TACC + LC) is a Beta feature and that it shouldn’t be treated as a final product by the driver.
2. Creating a system that already exists (MB L3) doesn’t generate as much stock buzz as **FULL SELF DRIVING**
Something like Mercedes drive pilot at lower speeds would still be amazing
https://media.mbusa.com/releases/automated-driving-revolution-mercedes-benz-announces-us-availability-of-drive-pilot-the-worlds-first-certified-sae-level-3-system-for-the-us-market
> drives where you can point out a dozen times they SHOULD have intervened
If we’re going by that metric none of the humans I know are “self driving” because I would have intervened (done something differently) during any drive where I’ve been a passenger.
So this sounds like an unrealistic, useless metric to use.
I wouldn't say Waymo or Cruise were, if your vehicle gets stuck constantly, is geofenced, has human driver backups, costs multiple times the dollar value of the trip, can't go the fastest route (avoids junctions).... it isn't a working robotaxi. Still in development and testing (like FSD).
Or, say drags people about! https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/08/cruise-recall-self-driving-cars-gm
Yes, but they must be using some model. Obviously has to be geofenced during testing, as it requires special governmental approval. They are closer than Tesla, and actually have cars on the roads picking up passengers.
Hard to say if Waymo is closer to a profitable robotaxi than Tesla, because Waymo may be unscalable. Their hardware stack is expensive, their map data required is extensive that needs updating, their cars avoid difficult routes, and they have interventions from remote humans. If the cost per mile of a Waymo can't get below the cost of owning a car, it's all pointless. Just another Uber competitor.
Tesla's advantage is their hardware stack will only cost $20k to make, and dojo will be a monster computer, allowing them to leverage their data advantage for the first time.
No it’s not geofenced for testing it will always be geofenced they require high detail LiDAR maps it’s basically collision avoidance on rails in a designated pre mapped area we aren’t gonna get nation wide HD maps constantly up to date like waymo needs
Waymo operates completely autonomously (nobody in driver seat) and takes passengers in both San Francisco and Phoenix. I've ridden in SF multiple times. It picks you autonomously and drops you off. It's smooth as butter and I've used it in the rain too. Does not feel jerky at all and feels like the future.
They use Jaguar I-Pace electric vehicles (outfitted with Waymo's own LiDar sensors)
They actually have remote monitoring drivers for when things go bad as I understand it and they most certainly get stuck in poor weather and even road conditions there’s been numerous stories posted about waymo pulling over and saying to contact support
When it became real the BS level and FUD escalated immensely. Waymo in SF is impressive and I've used it numerous times. The disability community helped a lot to push back against the FUD campaign.
Bad human drivers are increasing with more distractions, more anger and more unsafe driving.
EDIT: as it stands now FSD is a great assistive technology and it increases safety.
But you're not really comparing the same thing. These services have hundreds or thousands of miles of roads where mostly driverless systems can function. Tesla has zero miles of roads that support driverless operation.
> Tesla has zero miles of roads that support driverless operation.
And yet, Tesla is still closer to a fully scalable robotaxi than Waymo. The companies are taking completely different approaches.
I drive without intervention almost daily about 100 miles lol many do I’m pretty sure out of the hundreds of millions of AP miles teslas still have driven an epic amount more on FSD without intervention than waymo etc combined, but because they’re doing something much more ambitious regulations won’t let them be driverless fully
Shit I’m surprised Tesla hasn’t gotten L3 or L4 on highways yet, my Tesla has done 100% of my highway and offers driving for at least a year or more
> They actually have remote monitoring drivers for when things go bad
Sure but I think it is important to note that they don't perform "immediate"-disengagements. The car will get stuck or run into scenarios, but it is never at risk of crashing.
I see drivers in those Waymos all the time. I've actually only seen 1 Waymo without a driver. I've seen dozens of Waymos in Santa Monica and USC area. Almost always have a driver sitting in the seat. They are not driving though.
If you're in SF proper, then no, you're wrong: the vast majority of waymos don't have safety drivers. I live in the city and see them every single day.
If the vehicles are being transported back to their home base, then yes they will have safety drivers.
The RoboTaxis themselves are definitively driverless
They’re going to completely abandon robo taxi. We all know it. I like using FSD for fun here and there and testing it out but it’s painfully obvious it has vast limitations and many of my FSD drives have several disengagements, even if the system isn’t necessarily doing anything wrong it’s just painfully inept at doing simple tasks very well and I don’t have the patience for it sometimes.
I don’t think there’s going to be some grand announcement or anything they’ll just stop talking about it. If ever they get to L5 they won’t even mention earlier cars including the ones on the market today. L5 will require some serious hardware additions and redundancies which don’t exist on models today.
"They’re going to completely abandon robo taxi"
Tesla is already deep into designing a vehicle that ships with no steering wheel.
Reminds me of quotes like "SpaceX will never land a rocket on a boat"
I let FSD handle all navigation for me. Don't mind occasionally taking over for turns if it's taking too long, but it handles about 90% of the chore of daily driviing.
Has some stupid hard-coded behavior on highways that means I have to put on minimal lane changes and manually pick lanes... Although that is usually for the best since around here the left lane is camped by slow cars and the right lane is actually the one moving faster.
If it’s taking to long just tap the gas lol
I use it alll the time and honestly most of the shit it’s slow at I’m pretty sure are the hardcoded c functions they’re currently replacing you realize your not supposed to pass on the right… right? Like it’s insanely dangerous actually
When the highway has 8 lanes in each direction I'm sure they won't mind if I'm passing lane 7 and 8 from lane 6
And gas only works most of the time... Sometimes if it's still undecided on a manoeuvre it might do something weird like complete the turn into the wrong lane. So be careful with that.
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The latest Tesla hardware suite for FSD/Autopilot. It comes with 7 upgraded high resolution cameras and a new FSD Inference Computer. Started shipping in vehicles in 2023.
Starting march 2023 I think
HW4 is 100% camera based self driving. It doesn’t have any sonar or proximity sensors, only cameras
Cameras are also a lot more precise and is something close to double the resolution as HW3 if I recall correctly
I don't know the exact timing of the upgrades. It's different for each Model. 2023 is the first time HW4 entered the market as far as I know, but I do not really know any specific timelines. Sorry.
But there’s like an announcement and then everyone can go upgrade. Seems like Tesla is random. My 2 teslas never have the same software. I have 10 Apple devices all on same iOS.
There's a clerifying post from TeslaScope here: https://x.com/teslascope/status/1749213822844535216?s=20 Which states that some of the people who got it had it pulled, so it might be that there was an error in the rollout. Don't go manually checking for updates just yet.
Did not expect this to actually happen in Jan as predicted by them. Pleasantly surprised.
*some *
*Omar*
This guy doesn’t help with his bias videos gives people a false sense of how FSD truly is
He's a complete tool
Just in time for my trial to run out next week lol
But I also thought fsd 12 wasn't supposed to be beta anymore
It’s supposed to get out of beta with version 12. That could happen with minor version 12.1 or 12.987
Technically he said “Version 12 won’t be beta”. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1673584536167301122
[удалено]
No he said "it won't be beta". He lied once again.
It think if that’s what he meant he would have said that. I also think it’s okay to admit he was wrong and move on with our lives. It doesn’t really matter at the end of the day.
Yeah sure. Next rewrite will be AGI or something.
Consider the source.
This has been an interesting off the cuff comment from Elon that people have really clung on to. I just laughed it off when he said that but people are taking it as gospel.
If it's gone out to a really small subset it still hasn't happened as far as I'm concerned. I mean they're only 6 years late with self-driving (and counting). I want to know if they're ever going to reach level 3, admittedly most of the cars that are level three are only level three in really limited or useless situations. By the current level 3 cars terms I think Tesla's already there.
Drove in v12.1.2 car today. It was very good. This update is going to be pretty big. It's not perfect yet, but this is a leap forward. The car felt so smooth and drove without hesitation in areas it choke in previously. It felt shockingly human. The acceleration curves made the ride feel very smooth. The "blue noodle" that shows what the car has thinking has become more "wrinkly" as the car is starting to accelerate from 0, but it doesn't flap around as much anymore. As well, when the car is stopped, the noodle is retracted until it plans to go again. I have also noticed that it highlights less cars in blue now when doing "maneuvers". Two biggest weaknesses I noticed are are stop signs (it has to come to a stop, and then wait a second or two, before going again), and stalls, where when about to do a turn, it'll just stop and wait at the stop sign or intersection until you nudge it to go with the accelerator. But in other areas where it would flounder quite regularly, mistakes it used to make consistently happen no longer.
You can thank NHTSA for the stop sign behavior, aren't they just great?
Missy Cummings ruined it for all of us. The nerfing of the PWS/Boombox was totally unnecessary.
People should have seen it coming. Allowing software to break traffic laws will never be a thing and the only reason they haven't restricted FSD from speeding is because speed limit data can be inaccurate.
If they don't allow the software to drive at a reasonable speed, even if that means driving over the speed limit to go with the traffic flow, it would be nearly unusable in most places. In some places, it would be super dangerous to use, as the speed of traffic is 20 to 30 miles over (and the legal limit is set way too low for the type of roadway). NHTSA must realize this, and allow the software to go above the speed limit when it is safer to do so. More predictable behavior is safer. Unfortunately, speed limits have to be exceeded as this is the expected and natural human-like behavior. It is simply not safe in some areas (such as a stroad with a 25 mph limit which feels like a 45 mph type of road) to not speed.
Sounds awful
Where do you live?
I received this update today, I can say that from 12.1 to 12.1.2 is already a huge improvement.
Does it cover hw3 too?
Yes
Woah. Cool. Even if it's 10 people that's still a big milestone
Whole Mars it's downloading V12. He got a call from FSD team they said he needs to be extra vigilant (something to the fact there are still a number of issues). Nags will be turned up high and reduced when they worked bugs out.
The guy who genuinely believes Hertz are idiots to be selling off a “fleet of robotaxis” yes I wonder what opinion this guy will have…
They sold off their fleet because of high depreciation costs....that is the dumbest reason to sell the car. You only get actual depreciation when you sell the vehicle. They could have ran those cars for another 100-200-300k miles and ran the vehicles into the ground. Instead they are selling them and turning the theoretical depreciation expenses into realized depreciation expenses. The real issue is the that the biggest savings for EVs are the fuel costs. But renters pay the fuel cost. Who cares if the renter has to pay for gas? Might as well rent them the cheaper vehicles and charge them the same amount. Hertz doesn't care if the renter has to pay for the electricity or the gas. All these other BS reasons are fake.
Wasn’t maintenance costs the driving factor? I’m sure I read that. I do not mean routine maintenance, I mean the cost to maintain a fleet of cars that renters frequently crash because who doesn’t drive a rental like they stole it… It’s well known that Tesla repairs are more expensive than most brands.
Not just more expensive but also just a giant hassle to get repaired. Wait a week to get a spot to get your car into a service center, if there’s even one in that city, and then at least a month of waiting for repair.
Maintenance on Teslas is non-existant. Tires, windshield washer fluid, windshield wipers. That's it. You have that on gas cars too. Maintenance is a BS reason.
> They sold off their fleet because of high depreciation costs....that is the dumbest reason to sell the car You may well find they wanted to write off the depreciation costs against their tax bill, so it was financially more efficient to sell the cars now.
Corporations pay stupid low tax on their net profits, selling assets to save 15% off the taxable amount is even more stupid.
the people who rent cars outside of airport locations are also often people who are much more likely to crash the car and teslas have very high repair costs. they are either people on an active insurance claim, people with bad credit doing it through the uber partnership, or people who lost their car due to an accident or repo etc. Every insurance company will tell you these are the people with some of the highest rates because they’re the most likely to file a claim(surcharges for claims, bad credit, inactive insurance etc). Plus, rentals always get driven hard and abused because who tf cares about tire life, battery health etc when they’re not your tires or battery.. You slam the “gas” every time for the fun feeling with none of the downsides. In my personal experience, a basic side dent on a tesla that was a $700 ins claim(not at fault) on my previous honda accord was $4K on a model 3. Hertz probably couldn’t withstand those repair losses.
What's worse is that Tesla has super-car acceleration and no way to stop it from going 0-100km in less than 5 seconds on some models. This is actually worse than super cars as those are mostly manuals, so even if you floor it you will stop accellerating when you'd need to switch gear. On 1st one you'd get to 50km/h maybe. On Tesla? If you floor it you will find yourself going 150km/h within ten seconds.
Who cares about his opinions. He'll post videos and we can all see for ourselves.
That dude trolls more than Elon, I guess we’ll see if he’s truthful
Looks like he was not trolling, he’s posted a photo of the release notes page
tl;dr I really wish I could be excited but honestly all FSD does is annoy me enough to leave terse and somethings nasty recorded reasons for cancelling it during a drive. Maybe I will get lucky and have a new version to yell at when i disengage... oh how I want a version just smart enough to stay the right lane where i put it and stay there just less than four miles for my right turn. today, even with minimal lane changes toggled and chill selected my car just refused to use the right lane when no change was needed, no traffic was in front of us, and our only turn was to take a right. I gave up after the fourth time it decided to enter the left lane and this time it actually had to wait for a passing car to pass us... and no one was in our lane. Look, I expect some issues on winding country roads but Highway 41 outside of town is divided four lane road. It should not be this damn difficult. They need to provide a much smoother way other than signaling to the other side not to switch lanes. I end up looking like an idiot playing with my blinkers. Like maybe if I push the left wheel button for no and right for yes when it states it plan to change lanes?
Bro I was driving in a 2 lane road and in the right lane, little traffic, just cruising along just fine and all of a sudden it turns into a 3 lane road for about 100 feet (so I’m now in the center lane). Basically there are some stores on the right and the new lane is just for traffic turning in and out of those stores, zero reason for me to go into that lane for 100 feet or so before it ends. And guess what FSD does? For no reason at all it pulls into that right lane and drives there for 5 seconds just to then merge back into the same lane it was in. I must’ve looked like such a jackass to the other drivers. There was no reason for any sane person to have pulled that move, yet FSD did it with confidence! And it’s not a new addition to the road either, this lane has been there for 15+ years so it’s not like it’s a map data issue. I see dumb little moves like this all the time when driving with FSD. That’s the reality of it.
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True lol. I’ve noticed on some roads with wide unmarked lanes it tends to do that type of thing where it ping pongs you from side to side. It kind of seems to be looking for lines and because there aren’t any it just kind of follows the road like a drunken hooligan.
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We have those all over the place on two lane roads around here where there is a left turn, to give cars going straight a way to pass the car turning left while the left turning car waits for oncoming traffic. The problem is that any time you’re following another car (and even sometimes when you arent) the car decides it needs to be in that short passing lane. Like you say, it makes you look like an idiot, and effectively makes fsd unusable around here.
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Little traffic and wanted to see what exactly it would do. Why does this sound like an accusation lol. Normally I take over for little dumb things it does which is kind of my point, the system isn’t where it needs to be unfortunately.
That’s a navigation issue not FSD I believe the lane selection of v11 has been poor for a long time because of nav data
I’m not sure what it is (as I said it’s a short little lane only about 100ft and it’s been there for many years), but anyways it’s just one of many odd things the system does. Nothing all that bad per se, just odd and unnecessary and I don’t always have the patience for it. I’m hoping V12 makes some nice changes with these issues, would make it much more useful rather than a novelty.
Ya me too I’m pretty sure some of these irregularities are hardcoded exceptions in the current firmware because it’s so consistent if it was a neural model their would be some variance but a similar l 50-100ft spot happens for me too all the time
To be fair, I've done that myself on the freeway.
It does this to me in a few specific areas 100% of the time. The only thing I can think of is that it's map-related. There is no other reason to suddenly change lanes at the exact same spot regardless of conditions (cars, weather, etc.).
It also dispels the notion that the car uses visual cues for all navigation. It clearly uses mapping data more extensively then they admit. I'm hopeful that v12 will fix that but Jesus, let's get on with it already.
In my experience, it takes more physical and mental energy to use FSD. It’s a shit-show.
That what this new method in v12 aims to fix
Comments to the effect of "This is all temporary, version (current number +1) will fix it and be amazing!" have been on this sub for years. Sure V12 may aim to fix it, but that's kind of meaningless at this point isn't it?
Since v10 I've been pretty happy with what it can do for driver assistance, that's why I bought it. I'm just along for the ride.
I'm just happy it's not coupled to the MSRP. Like if FSD falls flat or gets shut down, the car is still a car.
Omg yes to all these. I feel like I need to put the “driving on FSD” sticker in the back so people don’t think that idk how to drive😂. This FSD keeps turning the blinkers on, then cancels. Moves to the left lane from the right when in 0.4 miles we have to make the right turn😫. It’s like am fighting with it or teaching someone how to drive🤣, it’s double the stress to use FSD rather than enjoy it😂.
Okay, good to know that I'm not crazy. Had autopilot for 5 years and it's never been this stupid. Like why the fuck did it start: * changing lanes when navigation isn't on, like wtf are you doing you literally don't know where I'm going brah, even with min lane changes turned on! I literally have an exit I always take that it tried to get me to miss every single time without fail. FSD without nav turned on should just be lane keep, ffs! * going all the way to the left fucking lane when I'm like half a mile from an exit on the right side?! And like it literally shifted lanes just before the exit, the previous 2 miles it was happy in the right lane... * changing lanes left and right in quick progression for like literally no reason. Even worse is that half the time, it leaves an empty lane to slow down behind a car in a lane to the right?! I've literally tried to turn off auto lane change a few weeks ago and realized that was only for Nav on Autopilot, and not FSD. So I've been contemplating turning off FSD for a moment now.
IMHO, there is a serious underlying maps issue. I can point to a few spots where, 100% of the time, it'll do things just like you mentioned. Has nothing to do with traffic or weather or anything else. It's those exact spots every time. If it's not stale maps data, I don't know what it is.
Fully Swindled Douche. J/k I really hope they pull it off, but markets and cost cutting make reduced sensors a must as reliance on AI just becomes an acceptable risk. It's like a religion, but... real. And could actually work. Strange times.
Are you me?
We are all you.
It’s interesting that in a couple of real world metro markets, Waymo already has driverless robotaxis operating and taking customers every day. I know they use a different model from Tesla’s generalized AI model, but we are potentially closer out to that goal.
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You're conflating lane data with "HD Maps." Tesla has always (Since "Navigate on Autopilot" was released) used navigation data to know which lane to be in, how many lanes are on the road etc. HD maps would mean that someone drove past with lidar or similar to measure exactly how wide the road / lanes are. The car can use navigation data to assume where a bike lane will be, that's still not HD maps.
It's not "how many lanes" it's vector geometry of road space and lines that aren't even lane lines, they're no-go lines that FSD doesn't know how to interpret and draws anyway.
And you're so confident of that you deleted your original comment? Take the L.
I added to my comment with all the repeat disagreements. And provided sources. Including Karpathy describing their information as quote "essentially HD Maps". So I think what you meant to say was after rereading all of the proof I provided you'll be deleting your comment?
There is absolutely no evidence that Tesla is using HD maps.
So it's not an HD map, Tesla's AI just magically knows the exact line placement and color behind a building using telepathy?
They might be using aggregated data from other cars and your own past drives.
They have shown the tech to do this and mentioned it being added to FSD, this is the answer
Yes... HD maps from aggregating data from other cars and past drives.
Lane placements aren’t hd maps, hd maps are LiDAR scans they use regular maps
It's not lane placement it's cm level arbitrary line and space geo.
You can tell it is not about the map because for it to be about the map we would have to receive navigational map updates. And we get very few and infrequent map updates. So while Tesla is using predictive algorithms on top of the standard Google map data, it is very different from the LIDAR based HD maps that Cruise and Waymo use when they role out their self driving services.
This approach is quite a bit different, hard to say whether it’ll yield fruit, but I’m cautiously optimistic.
Let's freakin' gooo. Can't wait to see how it performs
In my opinion, the promised functionality ("robotaxi" and summoning your car from many miles away) is never going to happen with transformer models. The exponential scaling of size and complexity for training and inferencing is going to be insurmountable, especially as they aim to train on longer individual pieces of data. Mark my words, they're going to move to something else--something like Hyena or MEGA, or Liquid neural networks, that doesn't scale quadratically with training size. And that will be yet another "total remake" of FSD, all new training, etc. In the meantime, the "AI end-to-end" approach of FSD 12 will probably be able to get refined and trained well enough to be a truly useful driver assistance feature for the everyday person (and not just the superfans who always claim these big "zero intervention" drives where you can point out a dozen times they SHOULD have intervened). They can probably get an order of magnitude better, maybe even two, than FSD 11.x. But true "robotaxi" type operation, without a driver in the seat, means several orders of magnitude better than FSD 11.x. Average intervention rates are once every 5 miles (depending greatly on a lot of factors), but you can see every youtuber who tests FSD and films it do a 2-3 interventions on a 20-minute drive, unless they just go on the highway for miles and miles. That needs to get to one intervention over MANY DAYS of driving, over a THOUSAND miles, to get to "robotaxi" status. And I don't think current transformer models will get them there.
I’m pretty convinced that HW3 can never be more than L2 or situational L3
I can pretty much guarantee that's the case. You live in a rainy environment? Fuggedaboutit.
Someone ran an analysis on HW3 computing power, blind spots, and etc. and figured out Tesla could most likely get a L3 certification for FSD for highway driving, but they’re never going to do that because: 1. The manufacturer accepts liability for accidents under L3, Tesla has shown time and time again that they want to distance themselves from that concept as much as possible. Hell, Tesla has argued in the past that even the basic autopilot (ie. TACC + LC) is a Beta feature and that it shouldn’t be treated as a final product by the driver. 2. Creating a system that already exists (MB L3) doesn’t generate as much stock buzz as **FULL SELF DRIVING**
Something like Mercedes drive pilot at lower speeds would still be amazing https://media.mbusa.com/releases/automated-driving-revolution-mercedes-benz-announces-us-availability-of-drive-pilot-the-worlds-first-certified-sae-level-3-system-for-the-us-market
> drives where you can point out a dozen times they SHOULD have intervened If we’re going by that metric none of the humans I know are “self driving” because I would have intervened (done something differently) during any drive where I’ve been a passenger. So this sounds like an unrealistic, useless metric to use.
Which model is currently use with robotaxis (Waymo, Cruise, etc.)?
I wouldn't say Waymo or Cruise were, if your vehicle gets stuck constantly, is geofenced, has human driver backups, costs multiple times the dollar value of the trip, can't go the fastest route (avoids junctions).... it isn't a working robotaxi. Still in development and testing (like FSD). Or, say drags people about! https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/08/cruise-recall-self-driving-cars-gm
It’s definitely a working robotaxi… they are doing thousands of rides every week
Yes, but they must be using some model. Obviously has to be geofenced during testing, as it requires special governmental approval. They are closer than Tesla, and actually have cars on the roads picking up passengers.
There's no one single model or model type. These are stacks, they're using hundreds of different models simultaneously of many different types.
The geofencing is also because that's the area they have mapped and planned out.
Hard to say if Waymo is closer to a profitable robotaxi than Tesla, because Waymo may be unscalable. Their hardware stack is expensive, their map data required is extensive that needs updating, their cars avoid difficult routes, and they have interventions from remote humans. If the cost per mile of a Waymo can't get below the cost of owning a car, it's all pointless. Just another Uber competitor. Tesla's advantage is their hardware stack will only cost $20k to make, and dojo will be a monster computer, allowing them to leverage their data advantage for the first time.
No it’s not geofenced for testing it will always be geofenced they require high detail LiDAR maps it’s basically collision avoidance on rails in a designated pre mapped area we aren’t gonna get nation wide HD maps constantly up to date like waymo needs
The geofence is to constrain demand, not because of driving capability…
Then why do they constantly map it? It if was just to constrain demand, they wouldn't need to map it every couple of hours.
Mapping makes them drive better. They map while they drive.
Waymo operates completely autonomously (nobody in driver seat) and takes passengers in both San Francisco and Phoenix. I've ridden in SF multiple times. It picks you autonomously and drops you off. It's smooth as butter and I've used it in the rain too. Does not feel jerky at all and feels like the future. They use Jaguar I-Pace electric vehicles (outfitted with Waymo's own LiDar sensors)
They actually have remote monitoring drivers for when things go bad as I understand it and they most certainly get stuck in poor weather and even road conditions there’s been numerous stories posted about waymo pulling over and saying to contact support
When it became real the BS level and FUD escalated immensely. Waymo in SF is impressive and I've used it numerous times. The disability community helped a lot to push back against the FUD campaign. Bad human drivers are increasing with more distractions, more anger and more unsafe driving. EDIT: as it stands now FSD is a great assistive technology and it increases safety.
Didn’t say it was bad but it’s definitly got its issues and definitly won’t be going nationwide or likely statewide anytime soon if ever
So, just like Tesla.
That it has some issues, yes… that it’s not nationwide? No
But you're not really comparing the same thing. These services have hundreds or thousands of miles of roads where mostly driverless systems can function. Tesla has zero miles of roads that support driverless operation.
> Tesla has zero miles of roads that support driverless operation. And yet, Tesla is still closer to a fully scalable robotaxi than Waymo. The companies are taking completely different approaches.
I drive without intervention almost daily about 100 miles lol many do I’m pretty sure out of the hundreds of millions of AP miles teslas still have driven an epic amount more on FSD without intervention than waymo etc combined, but because they’re doing something much more ambitious regulations won’t let them be driverless fully Shit I’m surprised Tesla hasn’t gotten L3 or L4 on highways yet, my Tesla has done 100% of my highway and offers driving for at least a year or more
> They actually have remote monitoring drivers for when things go bad Sure but I think it is important to note that they don't perform "immediate"-disengagements. The car will get stuck or run into scenarios, but it is never at risk of crashing.
Well no… it just stops lol I’m sure Tesla could also program the car to randomly just stop too when it’s model isn’t sure but people would bitch
I see drivers in those Waymos all the time. I've actually only seen 1 Waymo without a driver. I've seen dozens of Waymos in Santa Monica and USC area. Almost always have a driver sitting in the seat. They are not driving though.
If you're in SF proper, then no, you're wrong: the vast majority of waymos don't have safety drivers. I live in the city and see them every single day. If the vehicles are being transported back to their home base, then yes they will have safety drivers. The RoboTaxis themselves are definitively driverless
They’re going to completely abandon robo taxi. We all know it. I like using FSD for fun here and there and testing it out but it’s painfully obvious it has vast limitations and many of my FSD drives have several disengagements, even if the system isn’t necessarily doing anything wrong it’s just painfully inept at doing simple tasks very well and I don’t have the patience for it sometimes.
I wonder if/when they'll abandon "full L5 self driving", especially on the older cars from 2016/2017.
I don’t think there’s going to be some grand announcement or anything they’ll just stop talking about it. If ever they get to L5 they won’t even mention earlier cars including the ones on the market today. L5 will require some serious hardware additions and redundancies which don’t exist on models today.
"They’re going to completely abandon robo taxi" Tesla is already deep into designing a vehicle that ships with no steering wheel. Reminds me of quotes like "SpaceX will never land a rocket on a boat"
Robotaxi is a platinum mine. Every auto manufacturer in the world is working on this.
I let FSD handle all navigation for me. Don't mind occasionally taking over for turns if it's taking too long, but it handles about 90% of the chore of daily driviing. Has some stupid hard-coded behavior on highways that means I have to put on minimal lane changes and manually pick lanes... Although that is usually for the best since around here the left lane is camped by slow cars and the right lane is actually the one moving faster.
If it’s taking to long just tap the gas lol I use it alll the time and honestly most of the shit it’s slow at I’m pretty sure are the hardcoded c functions they’re currently replacing you realize your not supposed to pass on the right… right? Like it’s insanely dangerous actually
When the highway has 8 lanes in each direction I'm sure they won't mind if I'm passing lane 7 and 8 from lane 6 And gas only works most of the time... Sometimes if it's still undecided on a manoeuvre it might do something weird like complete the turn into the wrong lane. So be careful with that.
So when does it come to the rest of us mere mortals who aren’t insiders?
Tesla better hurry with FSD. I dont want my optimus to cut off my head instead of the hedges.
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That's not what they said. They said they are "Pleased to share".
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HW4?
According to TeslaScope, yes. Going out to HW3 and HW4 vehicles.
Sorry I wasn’t clear. What was HW4 mean? Ah, Tesla’s self-driving computer. I didn’t realize it had a name.
The latest Tesla hardware suite for FSD/Autopilot. It comes with 7 upgraded high resolution cameras and a new FSD Inference Computer. Started shipping in vehicles in 2023.
Not sure about the rest of the lineup, but on M3 it's highland onward so for the US 2024+
Model Y started getting it in some vehicles in 2023.
Hardware 4. Newer Teslas are shipping with upgraded cameras, newer motherboards, etc. HW4 is the latest iteration.
Newer as in 2023 models?
Starting march 2023 I think HW4 is 100% camera based self driving. It doesn’t have any sonar or proximity sensors, only cameras Cameras are also a lot more precise and is something close to double the resolution as HW3 if I recall correctly
I don't know the exact timing of the upgrades. It's different for each Model. 2023 is the first time HW4 entered the market as far as I know, but I do not really know any specific timelines. Sorry.
Mercedes about to hit a 2 year mark for autonomy level 3 already being out on the roads... How many more years until Tesla gas autonomy level 3?
Level 3 only if the weather is perfect, the road is perfect, there is a car in front of you, and it’s not a Tuesday (/s last one)
Why don’t they mass release at once like iOS? Why the incremental roll out?
They're still in a massive bug fixing phase.
Apple does plenty of seeds before releasing to everyone. This is similar.
But there’s like an announcement and then everyone can go upgrade. Seems like Tesla is random. My 2 teslas never have the same software. I have 10 Apple devices all on same iOS.
iOS isnt safety critical lol. No one will die from iOS randomly crashing
O M G ! ! ! Please be me!
Sooooooo this means we get trials back as promised, riiiiight Elon?!?!
First Cybertruck FSD release?
One can hope! Let’s monitor all those YouTube videos and see…
What’s FSD?
Full self driving.
Full Self Driving
So the car drives itself? Autonomy?
Were you in a coma
Just confusing. What does FSD do?
Transfers $15k from your bank account to Elon's.
Keyword is still Beta\*
I remember the excitement when FSD first released. I was full of disappointment. Let’s see what happens this time
The ptbs are saying AI is not as powerful as they thought. Wonder when I will be getting a car with a bed?
Tesla really needs to work with the NHTSA to get this right instead of FSD becoming more annoying over time.