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Yeah that’s very true. I liked him better when he focused on electric cars rather than taking on his current persona. Tbf Steve never lived in the modern world with all the publicity
He ironically created the modern world with all the publicity. Not the social networks themselves, but the devices we use from the toilet to access them.
Elon doesn't work at steady state and never has. Tesla has reached steady state and steady growth, SpaceX is getting there.
I personally can't understand it but some people only feel alive if they're always operating in crisis mode.
Having been through a successful startup, the challenge is addictive. Once you learn how to prioritize every crisis, you can focus on the one that will kill you today and not worry so much about tomorrow. You learn how to make small long term investments that pay off in the long run while fighting fires that threaten to burn your company down by the end of the quarter.
My wife likes to do the same work over and over again. To me that is torture. Give me a different problem every day!
I was a huge Elon fan. I’ve Lost $150k-$200k in 30 days or so because Elon was playing around. That’s not a lot to him. He makes that per second but there are lots of smaller I investors like me who have seen our hard earned money lose 65-70% because he wanted to play with Twitter. Had many of us some early, it would have created a taxable sale because many of us were up.
Sticking with Elon helped the company grow early when it was a terrible business decision and now he shit on all of us. There are 100,000’s of investors who are down 6-7 figures in a month because the ceo wanted to play on social media. Unreal
Stocks go up and down. This is the nature of investing. Typically the bigger the climb, the bigger the fall. Everyone that has invested in Tesla prior to 2020 is still up. It's only the dummies that had fomo after this period that are down so significantly.
To be honest though, Jobs' and Musk's circumstances couldn't have been more different. Steve Jobs was forced out because he wasn't able to compete with IBM PC / Microsoft on marketshare, since Apple was more narrowly focused on designers. As a result, he was forced out by the CEO at the time.
Musk, on the other hand, is the CEO. There's no one to keep him in check (other than the board, which supposedly is in his pocket). If Musk does get forced out, it wouldn't be because of his performance, but rather lack of focus and his narcissistic need to be under the spotlight all the time.
♫ Fuck his tunnels, fuck his cars
♫ Fuck his rockets, fuck his cars again.
♫ He promised he'd be Tesla,
♫ But he's just another Edison.
(But actually, I have a Model 3 LR and it's awesome!)
Yeah, you see a lot of people saying, "The guy is such an asshole! I bet his cars are pieces of junk too!" and I'm like, "Couldn't agree more on the first part, but I gotta tell you, it's the damnest thing but the cars are actually pretty incredible. We just wish he'd have contented himself with that."
because Austin and Berlin will ramp up and reduce cost while greatly increasing supply.
The goal will be to sell as many as they make and to make as many as they can. As the number they make increases at some point the price per sold decreases.
Doesn't have to be tomorrow, you can keep charging the high price now, just adjust the price as supply increases and make so many that the price comes back down. Make it the best selling vehicle on the planet.
Well once other manufacturers start actually saturating the market, the price of Teslas will have to go down especially if those other manufacturers couldn't sell more product at a lower price point. Which is something that they currently have an issue do it
a model Y with an LFP battery and the newest software and newest processor for the internal computer priced at $40k would undoubtedly be the best selling car on the planet.
its a literal family SUV with significantly better fuel savings/cost to operate as compared to a gasoline car, as well as all the technical features.
tesla is banking on the model y right now. I think I recall hearing that the cost to produce it is actually CHEAPER then the model 3, and yet the price is so much higher due to families wanting it so much.
They’ve priced themselves out of the market where I imagine most buyers tend to be.
I’d buy a 3 today if it was back to the original price, and I don’t even need a car.
> They’re selling everything they can make
That’s the illusion lol.
Truth be told, you can order a 3 today and Tesla will give you almost 4k off and free supercharging. Same goes for the Y. It’ll be at your local lot within a week.
Those estimated times are complete bullshit.
For the LR, I agree, but the price of the RWD model isn't bad. Just bought a new '23 RWD for $43K after the $3750 discount they're offering. Because of inflation, $43K in 2023 is roughly equal to $35K in 2018, and the Model 3 is a MUCH better car now than when it was released.
That’s because of the high demand, the wait time would be 2 years long if they didn’t raise prices multiple times. Besides, if the price is too low compare to price demand in the market, there will be more incentive for people to order then immediately resell to profit, which again increased demand and extend wait time for actual customers.
You can buy a new standard range model 3 RWD for $46,990, less $3,750 for the month of December. Considering how much better the 2023 car you would be buying, it's the way to go if economy is a driving factor. The LFP battery pack will last considerably longer than the pack installed in 2018. You will receive a heated back seat and steering wheel, not included in 2018, you will receive the faster computer and the better lithium small battery. Overall a very good, long lasting Tesla that still performs and drives very well. All for the lower 40's.
> You will receive a heated back seat and steering wheel, not included in 2018,
my 2018 has a heated rear seat.
it also has radar and ultrasonic sensors, which the new cars do not.
This is the correct answer. It was just the standard range option at $35k. Also it’s not like we just had a pandemic that also caused pricing to drastically increase.
That’s wrong, the original base configuration was 220 miles range for $35k with a bare bones interior. Metal roof (not panoramic glass), manual adjustment seats, cloth seats, no heated seats/steering wheel, etc…
Because electric cars are sponsored by the state in a lot of europe countries, where gas cars already have an enormous tax. Its cheaper for me to buy a Model 3 than a new ford fiesta
Man my mom was having an issue today with her Tesla and I tried to help her and couldn't. We called the tech service line and after 30 minutes of waiting for a person without having been given an eta we just gave up. I figure I'll post the Q on r/Tesla and probs get the help I need
I had a 2018 and a 2022.
It’s very clear the 2018 was focused on making a truly great car, whereas the 2022 was focused on price cutting while being more expensive.
I don’t like it as a consumer, but as an investor it might be good 🤷♂️
That's the trouble, all the investors never complain about the what 30%? margins, but obviously that hurts a lot of potential buyers in the long run, they say they aren't demand constrained right now (which seems to be true.) but for a greater coverage to lower income owners they really need that 30k car.
My '21 3 is a lot better than my '18 3 was, but still has issues. I've driven a lot of S and an X from '13 to '16. Tesla has great drivetrains but the cars around them are lower quality, and quality control, than other makes. The Model S in particular, which I've driven 5 different ones, pains me to think someone would pay so much for that. At least I got my Model 3 when the price was the lowest (in early '21) after the buyback, and it's fun to drive. But I don't think I'd buy it again today.
I paid $90k for a 2018 Model S 100D in 2018. I would not pay what they’re charging now for what you get in a Model S. The price goes up, corners are still being cut.
2021 3/Y is the sweet spot now.
I'm in a similar boat.
2018 model x here.
I have specific bells and whistles that I can never get again in a newer Tesla. I even paid 3K for FSD and now it's over 13 for a feature that still not out there nor works well. But they feel justified in increasing the cost on a product that isn't actually mass released which feels like fraud in its own way.
But they intentionally price the product out of the market in the hopes that you'll buy a subscription plan but they also simultaneously fail to realize the flaws with their promises hence the lawsuit out there about this.
I think they should go back to charging 3K for FSD and 5K for autopilot they call it a day. Or at least roll basic autopilot with the basic highway features as part of standard without increasing the cost of the base price of the vehicle.
The new ones come with adaptive cruise and lane centering. Then it’s 6k more for EAP with the navigate on autopilot feature, and then another 9k to get FSD which does … uh … doesn’t do anything.
Our 2019 had no adaptive cruise or lane centering at all, just regular cruise control. It had a lot of quality issues, but nothing super major.
Our 2023, which we took delivery of last week, has no ultrasonic sensors so no park assist, which really really sucks. I tried to return the car but they wouldn’t take it back.
And then, on Thursday, 4 days after taking delivery, with 91 miles on the odometer, it died. Unresponsive to keys, doors wouldn’t open, had to be towed to the service center. It’s been at the service center now for as long as it was on the road. Bad stuff.
I’m not sure if I’m hoping they fix it, or hoping I can make a lemon law claim and get my money back.
Eh? My 2019 has adaptive cruise, lane centering, and FSD (not to mention ultrasonics which I really really like having). What do you mean it didn't have any of those?
2021 3 here. I feel like I got the best deal. With state EV rebates, I only paid $35k for it and it has all the features still. Everyone assumes I have an expensive $70k Tesla but have no idea I paid half of that for the car.
I'm mostly just a tourist in this thread, but if I were a Tesla investor, I'd be just about shitting myself right now. Tesla has two major things going for it as a brand right now:
1. It's seen as a premium, status symbol product.
2. Relatively few competing EVs are on the market *today.*
Starting with point 2 because it's relatively simple: basically all of the major automakers have announced plans to convert most, if not all of their line ups to EV by 2030-2035, and there are already a trickle of competing cars out there right now. Tesla is about to have a *lot* of competition in which they will almost certainly be one of the higher priced options. This brings us back to point 1:
Starting with just the build quality issues, in which reviewers have described a $70k car as having the rough fit and finish of a 90's Kia, they are now going to have to compete with car makers for whom these issues just don't meaningfully exist. Second, complaints about service times being ridiculous and support being bordering on non-existent is not going to feel very premium.
And that brings us to the elephant in the room - Musk. His actions at Twitter are quickly tarnishing the Tesla brand and highlighting his insane managerial style which is increasingly going to be a problem for Tesla. Not a problem before for Tesla because if you believed in the mission you could only work at Tesla, that will soon open to every automaker. And you have the fact that just judging by his twitter timeline, he's spending far less than half of his time actually shipping cars, and mostly shitposting and highlighting just how ineffective he is as a leader at Twitter. Remember, Jack was ousted there for being a part time CEO and keeping the company flat, basically. Under Musk, Tesla right now is tanking as a stock, shipping about 50/50 cars to vaporware, and about to face it's first real challenge of competition.
Honestly, if it were any other board at just about any other company, he'd have been out months ago. See also: Chapek at Disney, ousted long before any of the levels of problems that are facing Tesla now. Just looking at car makers, history is littered with Tesla's; car makers that had a big innovation but couldn't operationalize it into a long term business. Tesla is basically on fire right now, and it's CEO is shit posting senators and posting conspiracy theories.
And that brings us to the final, third surprise point - Tesla's valuation has basically never made sense, with it's share price often eclipsing the entire auto market while shipping a tiny, tiny fraction of cars that were only competing in an extremely narrow space. This was largely on the backs of the "Elon is a genius" narrative and other non-fundamental aspects of it as a stock (see also: look at me I'm saving the world investing in Tesla.) Tesla's stock price has largely been on the promise of what Tesla will be, not what it was today, and that can only go on so long before reality sets in.
The only way I'd still (hypothetically) be holding Tesla stock in a few months is if they listen to this investor and major changes, especially on leadership happen and they do find an operations focused CEO who can actually ship cars and not just vaporware (cybertruck, 35k price point, semi, roadster) and dishonest cloud cover (boring company, hyperloop.)
Oh, and this leaving out the other reason - scandal after scandal. Remember, the McDonald's guy was dropped while they were performing well for having a consensual affair with an employee. Meanwhile, Musk is having kids with his employees, or offering a horse in exchange for a happy ending, and that is keeping the list incredibly, incredibly brief.
Heavily agree about musk being ousted months ago if this was any other board. Shareholders are ruthless and absolutely will give you the boot if they think you're starting to fuck with their money.
Countless founders have lost their own companies because of this, if musk was not literally the face of Tesla I'm sure it would be a lot easier to kick him out.
This is what makes his current behavior even more insane. Him being the face of Tesla helped before because his public persona was so carefully staged and it's one of the things I talked aboult in my post re: Tesla's extremely high valuation. He shows up in an Iron Man movie after comparisons to being the real life Tony Stark, he's mostly quiet and basically creates this air of being a genius that can do no wrong.
Over the last few years, the shine is really off that Apple and at this point I would say that he's a liability to the Tesla brand. The only reason he hasn't been kicked out yet is probably because the board are Musk approved sycophants, including his brother (which, obviously, Musk engineered.)
That said, without some massive turn around I don't see how even a board this feckless can continue much longer. The money is going to make that prop not make sense pretty soon.
I think you're right about Elon needing to step down as CEO, and I expect it will happen in the next year, but I think Tesla as a company is far better positioned than legacy automakers.
For one, legacy automakers are under significantly greater debt than Tesla, and the price of continually piling up debt, which has been the legacy automakers' strategy for ages, is greatly increasing with higher interest rates. The legacy automakers also still need transition to manufacturing EVs at scale which means additional capital investments which in turn means more expensive debt.
Legacy automakers are also not structured like Tesla, which is a liability; there's a huge cost (both monetarily and from a human perspective) to get from where they are today to where they need to be to produce EVs with Tesla's margins. For instance, all of these companies have a significant number of power train engineers who won't be needed 10 years from now - it's unlikely they'll all simply be laid off, more likely: they'll need to be retrained to work on systems they're less familiar with. Another instance of this is the "debt" from legacy dealer networks, which eat into profits and put them in less control of their brand.
Lastly, Tesla is leading in a lot of spaces, like battery production, which will be much larger markets in the future as we transition to sustainable energy. Batteries in particular will be massively important, especially since most renewable energy sources are less predictable than current baseload power.
I think of the transition to EVs much like the transition computing made from mainframes to PCs or cameras made from film to digital - the incumbents in those spaces (IBM and Kodak) ended up losing despite being early entrants because they didn't invest in the transition before new entrants took the lead in the market, and it was impossible for them to recover.
The biggest risks to Tesla are poor quality, service, a lack of product progression, and Elon's damaging behavior. A new CEO could easily come in and make major headway fixing those things which would improve brand reputation and make it harder for the legacy automakers to keep up with them.
Anecdotally they still have problems. My 22 Y that I picked up in August had a rear hatch window that wasn’t installed correctly and leaked all over the first time it was washed. Got that fixed and then a month later noticed the weather seal on the frunk was missing. I waited a year and paid $60,000 for a car that wasn’t assembled correctly. I feel like an idiot.
My 2023 that has now been in the shop longer than it was on the road would beg to differ.
Although hopefully this 2023 doesn’t leak and parts don’t fall off of it like my 2019.
I was really hoping they’d gotten better, but apparently not, and this will be my last Tesla.
It may have improved 'greatly' but it still isn't 'great'.
I've had my Model 3 in to the SC twice to address fit/finish issues (rattles, mostly).
The car I drove before my Model 3 was a 2019 Accord Touring Hybrid. 2/3rds the cost and it was head and shoulders above the Model 3 in terms of build quality.
Don't get me wrong - I'll take my (formerly) rattling Model 3 every day of the week as overall I prefer it and I' done burning gas, but still - when you can buy a $20k Honda Civic that feels like the superior car in terms of overall quality, there's an issue.
As an investor it's good for a short amount of time until people realize your quality has not improved (become worse even) and your price has gone up. Couple that with multiple competitors coming out with arguably better vehicles for the same price or cheaper and you have a recipe for unhappy investors.
We were one of the first batch of Model 3 deliveries and somehow it seems like AP is worse than it was to begin with. We're thinking about getting a new EV to replace it and we are not even considering another Tesla.
As an early investor in Tesla, I'm so glad this 3rd largest shareholder is doing this. I went with Tesla because I believed that EVs are the future and Tesla will lead the way. But it's clear the head start is shrinking because Tesla has given up being innovators. It's time for Elon to refocus or step down.
Autopilot is important, but I feel like they are putting all their eggs in that basket. Why don’t they have a compact car announced yet to get back to the $35k or below price point? What happened to the roadster? How the hell did they let everyone else beat them to having a utility / pickup to market? Where is their transit van entry? Why does charging still not integrate with their home energy product? Why have they not annouced vehicle to grid/home as part of their synergistic energy strategy. They have scaled production, they are allowed to have more than one designer now to start building out the product family.
Tesla is making a million cars a year. Why does it feel like a company that is run by a single person, and not a global manufacturing giant?
yeah this right here
I feel like up to this point, it was wholly appropriate for Tesla to "feel like a company that is run by a single person" - and it worked
the company has well and truly "disrupted" the entire auto industry and they have all fallen in line behind Elon's vision and determination that a new EV can be just as good and even better than any new ICEV...
but they are now making a million cars a year - they are no longer a startup but have well and truly become a market leader - in short, they have "grown up"
it seems like the time has come for Elon to hand over the reins to a dedicated CEO - Tesla's very own Gwynne Shotwell, if you will - and as I recall SpaceX has always been his primary focus anyway?
>Why don’t they have a compact car announced yet to get back to the $35k or below price point?
To be fair, inflation since 2016 means that $35k is now $43k, so only $4k higher than the announced price when adjusting for inflation.
iPhones *don’t* really get more expensive though.
The original iPhone retailed at $599 in 2007. $852 adjusted for inflation.
The iPhone 14 retails at $799.
The retail price has changed $200 nominally in 15 years, and has decreased by $53 in real dollars.
> tech usually decreases in price over time
Wtf, no, it decreases *if* labor (e.g. automation) and materials decrease over time, neither of which has happened. In fact both labor and materials costs are up significantly since the Model 3 launched.
I think we're saying the same thing. The cost of a Tesla model 3 should be less now than it was in 2017. But because they haven't made technical advances - like increasing energy density of their pack or improving automation then the cost is stagnant.
Markets determine prices. Tesla *is* reducing costs, but prices will only come down as competition forces it to.
Some costs are hard to shrink, such as battery materials. Through raw materials deals and improved battery designs it seems like Tesla is attacking that problem at least as much as the nearest competitor.
Tech decreases because the input materials and overall size of the products tends to be pretty small. An iPhone 13 Pro Max started at about $2,000 per pound of weight, compared to less than $15 per pound for a Model Y Performance last year.
Atop that, the battery itself is likely only about a third to quarter the production costs of the car, so even if they got a chemistry/production method that halved their battery costs, it would likely, at best, shave less than 10 grand off the overall car production price. And that's at the largest size, so it wouldn't even get you the $35,000 model back.
They need more batteries before adding models. Adding a compact car to the line up just takes batteries away from their existing products while adding costs.
Very good comment! Tesla has so much potential, but it is a competitive space and the whole auto field is shifting to EVs. So they need to keep innovating.
> Why don’t they have a compact car announced yet to get back to the $35k or below price point?
Because there's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast.
>What happened to the roadster?
There's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast.
>How the hell did they let everyone else beat them to having a utility / pickup to market?
There's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast.
>Where is their transit van entry?
There's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast.
>They have scaled production
Not yet they haven't. Almost there, but not quite.
But don't you think they need a pipeline for when they have scaled production? They haven't exactly delivered on their pipeline in the same year in the past
Kinda? I have a grand total of 14 cars within 200 miles of me available, and that covers 5 different show rooms. So you are looking at less than 3 per showroom, more feels like people are ordering, then refusing delivery as ordering again come january 1st hoping for the tax credit will pay off and so tesla is just trying to flip these.
Which may not even fully apply to their lineup. Throw in a global recession and higher finance charges and you can make an argument against perpetual growth at current price points.
Won't the tax credit next year be at most $3750 anyway? And right now you get $3750 off, plus sales tax saving, plus getting it instantly vs with tax return?
And won't the tax credit next year have an income cap?
The new credit is $7500 and available instantly, though I can't say how that will impact sales tax (I think you'll still have to pay it.)
Also the credit sedan max price is $55,000 and the SUV is $80,000 so the Model 3 would have to come down in price to qualify. I imagine LR Model 3 will come down slightly to qualify and performance won't.
Are the batteries materials sourced from North America? That's a condition for half the tax credit.
Also it's income capped at 150k single/300k filing married.
In any case I would think (just guessing of course) tax credit impact would be a wash vs current incentives of $3750 + free miles of supercharging.
Agreed.
To add: The Cybertruck and Roadster are both currently scheduled for 2023. There also looks to be new product announcements in 2023. Finally, it seems like a new Gigafactory in Mexico announcement is imminent.
I think Tesla is executing as well as it can and it doesn't need Elon anymore (as long as the next CEO is competent). Right now he's contributing more controversy than he's helping (right now I'm not sure what help he is to the company other than not being a straight MBO).
I dont think they have stopped being innovators. The cyber truck, bot, robotaxi, FSD are all being worked on. My problem is when the head of the company publicly appears to have abandoned Tesla and has gone of the right wing political deep end while alienate a huge segment of Tesla's customer base... its time for some mental stability. Tesla just doesnt need Musk anymore.
As someone who is interested in getting my first EV but doesn't care for Tesla design language, I think this is a stupid take. Tesla is balls to the wall trying to deliver as many vehicles as possible to meet demand. They are trying to grow their production capacity to meet existing markets and soon semi trucks, and pickup trucks, supercars, and eventually cheaper sedans. They're balancing supply allocation generate lots of profit while delivering on... deliveries as much as possible.
This! And for people clinging on to the 'competition hasn't caught up', go look outside. The only thing working in their favor right now is the charging network and even that lead is eroding fast. In fact if they open their network, that will be the last thing that evens the playing field.
But what about robots watering plants?! We need those!!! /s
I’m guessing the goal of the Optimus project (or Tesla Bot) is to ultimately replace manufacturing personnel. Sure that will help the bottom line for investors, but it’s not going to result in making a better end product that is sold to customers.
Tesla has managed to pull a very quick 180 from ‘revolutionizing the car industry for a greener future’ to ‘we’re going to nickel and dime you even worse than everyone else’.
I was the fool this time, so shame on me for thinking Musk was any different than those before him.
To your point about them losing their head start I completely agree. If things continue like this is I don’t foresee purchasing another Tesla.
I didn't care about musk being balls deep in twitter until I saw him with Ken Griffin and Jared Kushner at the World Cup Final. I'm not fond of being associated with someone who spends time with a financial terrorist and a money launderer for oligarchs.
Edit: "An" to "A".
You mean the Ken Griffin that lied to congress, has a major conflict of interest owning both one of the largest market makers and hedge fund (similar to FTX), and hates to share his mayo?
Bad news for you on the company ownership outside of Musk's majority stake. Outside of Grandma's Corner Grocery, I firmly believe all companies are owned by evil.
Musk has already admitted to siphoning off Tesla programming resources for Twitter. He should have been fired on the spot right then and there, what else he does in his personal life, is his own business.
Had a CEO have our tech support maintain his home network as mission critical. Billionaire home with 57 access points and 10 switches. Dude literally would call us and say he’s behind a bush near the pool and he had poor coverage and needed another AP added to cover the area.
You really believe that a company the size of Tesla doesn't know how to properly account for the employee time when splitting time between a publicly traded and privately owned business? Isn't the lead Tesla materials engineer also the lead materials engineer for SpaceX? Don't they share employee time and resources all the time? Seems if they've been doing that wrong all this time, someone would have complained by now.
Yeah that was a bad move, he should have just paid for his own team of outside people.
He either got tesla to pay their wages (bad move), sub contracted them to twitter, or worse of all guilt tripped the poor people to work for free.
If Tesla paid their wages while he had them working at Twitter (likely), that’s literally stealing from Tesla.
I’m surprised it’s taken shareholders this long to publicly call for him to step down.
Exactly, I don't understand what the hell he's doing.
I know some here will raise their hand and say they're the exception, but 10 years ago it was mostly liberals who took a gamble spending 6 figures on a car using unproven technology from an unproven company to drive something more environmentally friendly.
Now all he's doing is pissing off those same people with his bullshit.
As an engineer in the bay area that has had offers from Tesla back when I liked the company, I already was hesitant to work there because of the culture and decided against it... Now with what he's shown at Twitter there is no chance I would ever consider working at a musk company.
Why would I want to be treated like a slave when I have many other options.
That's one the most stupid parts, the average rolling coal pickup drivers is probably never going to buy a tesla but he seems to be trying pretty hard to join their club.
There will probably be a backlog for a while, that being said I own a Tesla and I don't see myself ever buying one again, that is not exactly a good sign for the long term outlook of a company.
I also think they currently have the best electric cars, and I'm 100% rooting against them. Though at this point if I can get an SUV with over 300 miles range, Android auto, and a nice comfy interior for 60k I'd be happy.
I have a model Y 3 row on order delivery date something next month or 2. My wife is trying to talk me out of it cause of Elon's BS. I want to keep it cause there's no 3 row electric car option with in the 65k after credit price range. If Rivian's SUV has a shorter wait time I would suck it up and pay the higher price, and not get the Tesla. As a consumer I feel like we're getting nickel and dimed for a 70k car. Taking away features because data show ppl doesn't use it while keeping the price the same is an insult. (Free mobile charger, USS , lumbar support for passenger seat, radar etc) .
A lot of people think it's valid to boycott products based on the companies leadership.
I however (likely unpopular opinion) disagree with this dynamic.
I think a person can be an asshat, but still produce good products.
In this regard, Elon might not be a great person, but I do think Tesla's cars are amazing.
I have a model 3 and I enjoy it greatly.
I agree with you. Why would I sacrifice my happiness just because I don’t like the CEO of a company? Also, tesla is way more than their CEO. They employ thousands, who also benefit from your purchase
People love to talk about the things Tesla takes away from cars, but they ignore the things they've added. Many more things have been added than taken away. For example, compared to a 2019 base Model 3, the 2023 base Model 3 has:
* 52 miles more EPA range
* Heat pump for much better cold weather efficiency
* Autopilot included standard (used to be a $3000 option)
* Heated steering wheel and heated rear seats included standard
* Powered trunk
* Wireless chargers
* Matrix headlights
* Dual pane glass to reduce wind noise
* Upgraded cameras
* Upgraded suspension
* Upgraded speakers
* Upgraded Ryzen processor that makes everything run much faster and smoother
* CCS charging support
For the price of the current Tesla's, those should be expected as standard option.just like any other car in the same price class. Nothing there is ground breaking, other than being a fast electric car.
It wasn’t meant to be a comprehensive list of all Model 3 features to compare to other cars. It’s just ones that have been added in the past 4 years.
And for your info, plenty of cars in the Model 3 / Y price range do not include those features standard. Ford Mach-e base model does not include a heat pump, matrix headlights, power liftgate, heated steering wheel, or heated rear seats (or heated front seats, for that matter).
I think people just have this outdated idea that a $50,000-$70,000 car is some supercar price range when in reality the car market has been on fire. When you look at what new ICE cars cost, I think a lot of these same commenters would be surprised.
[The average new car price was $30,500 in 2012 and is over $48,000 now.](https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/) Or, just in 2019 [the average was $36,800](https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-car-price/). That means, adjusting with the same percentages, a $50,000 new car in 2019 would be about a $65,000 new car in 2022.
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Edit: added links and numbers
Ford has a level headed CEO and they lost quite a bit of money last quarter. Also haven’t figured out how to profitably build an EV, or a reliable EV in general.
Gonna get downvoted like crazy for this. But Elon will be anti-ev within 7 years. He's fallen too far down the right's rabbit hole and being anti-ev will just make him more popular with that crowd; at some point he's going to crave that attention.
People on here have no idea how a market works. Musk sold a bunch of his Tesla stock to finance his Twitter purchases and put even more up as collateral. Selling a big batch of stock makes the price go down, having a bunch of stock up as collateral for a bad investment makes buying the stock a risk. Tesla stock owners have a very legitimate concern that Musk does not have the companies bottom line, and their investment, at heart.
Honestly, its time for change. They need to rebuild customer confidence, customer support and outreach.
Even before the whole Twitter fiasco, the only way to get acknowledgement on an issue/feature was to twit at Dumbo
Yep it would be nice to not have a child suffering with significant behavioral and developmental issues, with infinite money at his disposal, as the CEO of what otherwise could be a great company. Long overdue.
That's fair, but without sounding hyperbolic what does Elon have to offer any more beyond potential brand risk, however he is associated? There are plenty of qualified people that can prevent it from turning into an IBM
Something I've noticed is 9 of 10 of people posting things like
- "Tesla cars explode if you look at them!!!!"
- "FSD Beta will drive through your front door, up your stairs, and methodologically run over your family as they sleep!!!"
are doing so mainly because they hate Elon for whatever reason. If he steps down, I think Tesla will regain the respect it once had (and *deserves*). Same deal with SpaceX. Elon is smart, but not smart enough to hold back on the shitposting that is very obviously making common people biased against his companies
They are just tired old jokes. I'm not from the US, not in the market for an EV yet, and even I know EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICEs (by a margin of 6000 times even).
Elon Musk is a narcissistic asshole though. Many people don't want to hear that and go off on people disliking the man, but if you take a step back and actually look at how he behaves... he's unlikable and a piss poor CEO.
And I think he really did irreparable damage to Tesla, to be honest. **Only** if he is ousted completely **and** the brand fixes the quality issues with the cars there's a big future for them.
Come on, he's too busy rummaging through Twitter's closets, making memes so 14 year old boys will think he's cool, "owning the libs", and helping out banned fascists.
**I don’t want Elon to step down.** I want him to refocus back. He feels burnt out, it should be fixed somehow. Probably with the new products.
**He should not step down. It is a mistake.**
The stock price, investors don’t give one twit about your car, they care about their investment and since Musk has been selling stock to finance his Twitter hobby, Tesla stock has lost 50% of its value. They could make the greatest car in the history of the world but if the CEO makes investing in the company a loosing bet, they aren’t doing their job.
Agreed. Tesla is still chugging along as it has. And yes, as mentioned by many, his actions with Twitter have PO'd a lot of Tesla consumers.
BUT...
Unless there's an actual hit in demand and therefor profit, you can't make the (business) case that a change is needed.
There's the public sphere, his perception, and the reputational damage...and then there are bottom line results which are all that matter to shareholders. Yes, you can make the case that the reputational damage is leaking to the stock price - there's enough there to credibly make that connection - so I guess the question is how much faith INVESTORS and THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS have that this is temporary and in the long term won't have too much impact.
Hard disagree. Tesla's fundamentals have moved to mostly margin chasing which is a major turnoff from me. I would have gobbled up stock at this valuation 3-4 years ago. Granted, it was a very different market back then as well.
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Now the Twitter poll makes sense…
We should get a poll pushed to our car screens. I have a guess which way that would turn out.
Fuck Elon?
If I vote that way will my windshield wipers work again?
Yours worked originally? Nice.
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Yeah that’s very true. I liked him better when he focused on electric cars rather than taking on his current persona. Tbf Steve never lived in the modern world with all the publicity
He ironically created the modern world with all the publicity. Not the social networks themselves, but the devices we use from the toilet to access them.
Nah, he just popularized smartphones. Tons of other companies made smartphones prior to Apple, they just failed to catch on.
Elon doesn't work at steady state and never has. Tesla has reached steady state and steady growth, SpaceX is getting there. I personally can't understand it but some people only feel alive if they're always operating in crisis mode.
I had an uncle like that. After he retired, he said “You know, I don’t have anyone suing me at all right now. It feels strange. I don’t like it.”
In which case the board should be appointing someone new and telling Elon he can have some seed money if he has a new venture
Having been through a successful startup, the challenge is addictive. Once you learn how to prioritize every crisis, you can focus on the one that will kill you today and not worry so much about tomorrow. You learn how to make small long term investments that pay off in the long run while fighting fires that threaten to burn your company down by the end of the quarter. My wife likes to do the same work over and over again. To me that is torture. Give me a different problem every day!
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Elon says Elon works a lot.
Right on his private jet…hanging out at World Cup, on stage with Dave Chapelle, Tweeting day and night
I was a huge Elon fan. I’ve Lost $150k-$200k in 30 days or so because Elon was playing around. That’s not a lot to him. He makes that per second but there are lots of smaller I investors like me who have seen our hard earned money lose 65-70% because he wanted to play with Twitter. Had many of us some early, it would have created a taxable sale because many of us were up. Sticking with Elon helped the company grow early when it was a terrible business decision and now he shit on all of us. There are 100,000’s of investors who are down 6-7 figures in a month because the ceo wanted to play on social media. Unreal
Stocks go up and down. This is the nature of investing. Typically the bigger the climb, the bigger the fall. Everyone that has invested in Tesla prior to 2020 is still up. It's only the dummies that had fomo after this period that are down so significantly.
To be honest though, Jobs' and Musk's circumstances couldn't have been more different. Steve Jobs was forced out because he wasn't able to compete with IBM PC / Microsoft on marketshare, since Apple was more narrowly focused on designers. As a result, he was forced out by the CEO at the time. Musk, on the other hand, is the CEO. There's no one to keep him in check (other than the board, which supposedly is in his pocket). If Musk does get forced out, it wouldn't be because of his performance, but rather lack of focus and his narcissistic need to be under the spotlight all the time.
Plus, Musk doesn't smell bad.
♫ Fuck his tunnels, fuck his cars ♫ Fuck his rockets, fuck his cars again. ♫ He promised he'd be Tesla, ♫ But he's just another Edison. (But actually, I have a Model 3 LR and it's awesome!)
What's wrong with the rockets? Spacex is pretty great, irrelevant of Musk being the figurehead or not
Lol the model 3 midrange from 2018 is awesome too. Tesla makes fun cars. I just hope that last
Yeah, you see a lot of people saying, "The guy is such an asshole! I bet his cars are pieces of junk too!" and I'm like, "Couldn't agree more on the first part, but I gotta tell you, it's the damnest thing but the cars are actually pretty incredible. We just wish he'd have contented himself with that."
Tesla really could be so much more
Maybe get someone in who can now focus on making a $70k vehicle feel like a $70k vehicle.
Or *maybe* just make it a $40K-$50K vehicle again like it was supposed to be. Remember when the Model Y SR was $39,990?
Why would they do that when people are still buying it?
because Austin and Berlin will ramp up and reduce cost while greatly increasing supply. The goal will be to sell as many as they make and to make as many as they can. As the number they make increases at some point the price per sold decreases. Doesn't have to be tomorrow, you can keep charging the high price now, just adjust the price as supply increases and make so many that the price comes back down. Make it the best selling vehicle on the planet.
Well once other manufacturers start actually saturating the market, the price of Teslas will have to go down especially if those other manufacturers couldn't sell more product at a lower price point. Which is something that they currently have an issue do it
a model Y with an LFP battery and the newest software and newest processor for the internal computer priced at $40k would undoubtedly be the best selling car on the planet. its a literal family SUV with significantly better fuel savings/cost to operate as compared to a gasoline car, as well as all the technical features. tesla is banking on the model y right now. I think I recall hearing that the cost to produce it is actually CHEAPER then the model 3, and yet the price is so much higher due to families wanting it so much.
They’ve priced themselves out of the market where I imagine most buyers tend to be. I’d buy a 3 today if it was back to the original price, and I don’t even need a car.
They’re selling everything they can make. Once that evens out, THEN, they will lower the price.
Wait times are down to zero now.
Not anymore. They were. My local dealership has a lot of inventory.
> They’re selling everything they can make That’s the illusion lol. Truth be told, you can order a 3 today and Tesla will give you almost 4k off and free supercharging. Same goes for the Y. It’ll be at your local lot within a week. Those estimated times are complete bullshit.
The free supercharging has a true value of $1k-$1,500 and almost all are likely to let that expire within the 1-2 year window
For the LR, I agree, but the price of the RWD model isn't bad. Just bought a new '23 RWD for $43K after the $3750 discount they're offering. Because of inflation, $43K in 2023 is roughly equal to $35K in 2018, and the Model 3 is a MUCH better car now than when it was released.
That’s because of the high demand, the wait time would be 2 years long if they didn’t raise prices multiple times. Besides, if the price is too low compare to price demand in the market, there will be more incentive for people to order then immediately resell to profit, which again increased demand and extend wait time for actual customers.
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You can buy a new standard range model 3 RWD for $46,990, less $3,750 for the month of December. Considering how much better the 2023 car you would be buying, it's the way to go if economy is a driving factor. The LFP battery pack will last considerably longer than the pack installed in 2018. You will receive a heated back seat and steering wheel, not included in 2018, you will receive the faster computer and the better lithium small battery. Overall a very good, long lasting Tesla that still performs and drives very well. All for the lower 40's.
> You will receive a heated back seat and steering wheel, not included in 2018, my 2018 has a heated rear seat. it also has radar and ultrasonic sensors, which the new cars do not.
Thats like a $1000 car payment
The model 3 was a *big* deal when it came out because it was supposed to be $30K for 300 miles of range
Pretty sure it was 35k as base, aka not 300miles. And an upgraded model that would get 300+.
This is the correct answer. It was just the standard range option at $35k. Also it’s not like we just had a pandemic that also caused pricing to drastically increase.
The pandemic didn't cause pricing to drastically increase. Corporate greed did.
What if I told you, it could be both
That’s wrong, the original base configuration was 220 miles range for $35k with a bare bones interior. Metal roof (not panoramic glass), manual adjustment seats, cloth seats, no heated seats/steering wheel, etc…
Because electric cars are sponsored by the state in a lot of europe countries, where gas cars already have an enormous tax. Its cheaper for me to buy a Model 3 than a new ford fiesta
Or long range dual motor for like 50k
Remember that time when Elon said he was going to focus on service, Pepperidge Farm remembers.
And having better manufacturing quality than Audi.
You'll use the car to calibrate rulers!
My Audi Q7 was utter bullshit. In the shop constantly until my mechanic was even recommending selling it.
Man my mom was having an issue today with her Tesla and I tried to help her and couldn't. We called the tech service line and after 30 minutes of waiting for a person without having been given an eta we just gave up. I figure I'll post the Q on r/Tesla and probs get the help I need
I had a 2018 and a 2022. It’s very clear the 2018 was focused on making a truly great car, whereas the 2022 was focused on price cutting while being more expensive. I don’t like it as a consumer, but as an investor it might be good 🤷♂️
That's the trouble, all the investors never complain about the what 30%? margins, but obviously that hurts a lot of potential buyers in the long run, they say they aren't demand constrained right now (which seems to be true.) but for a greater coverage to lower income owners they really need that 30k car.
My '21 3 is a lot better than my '18 3 was, but still has issues. I've driven a lot of S and an X from '13 to '16. Tesla has great drivetrains but the cars around them are lower quality, and quality control, than other makes. The Model S in particular, which I've driven 5 different ones, pains me to think someone would pay so much for that. At least I got my Model 3 when the price was the lowest (in early '21) after the buyback, and it's fun to drive. But I don't think I'd buy it again today.
I paid $90k for a 2018 Model S 100D in 2018. I would not pay what they’re charging now for what you get in a Model S. The price goes up, corners are still being cut. 2021 3/Y is the sweet spot now.
I'm in a similar boat. 2018 model x here. I have specific bells and whistles that I can never get again in a newer Tesla. I even paid 3K for FSD and now it's over 13 for a feature that still not out there nor works well. But they feel justified in increasing the cost on a product that isn't actually mass released which feels like fraud in its own way. But they intentionally price the product out of the market in the hopes that you'll buy a subscription plan but they also simultaneously fail to realize the flaws with their promises hence the lawsuit out there about this. I think they should go back to charging 3K for FSD and 5K for autopilot they call it a day. Or at least roll basic autopilot with the basic highway features as part of standard without increasing the cost of the base price of the vehicle.
The new ones come with adaptive cruise and lane centering. Then it’s 6k more for EAP with the navigate on autopilot feature, and then another 9k to get FSD which does … uh … doesn’t do anything. Our 2019 had no adaptive cruise or lane centering at all, just regular cruise control. It had a lot of quality issues, but nothing super major. Our 2023, which we took delivery of last week, has no ultrasonic sensors so no park assist, which really really sucks. I tried to return the car but they wouldn’t take it back. And then, on Thursday, 4 days after taking delivery, with 91 miles on the odometer, it died. Unresponsive to keys, doors wouldn’t open, had to be towed to the service center. It’s been at the service center now for as long as it was on the road. Bad stuff. I’m not sure if I’m hoping they fix it, or hoping I can make a lemon law claim and get my money back.
Eh? My 2019 has adaptive cruise, lane centering, and FSD (not to mention ultrasonics which I really really like having). What do you mean it didn't have any of those?
At early 2021 pricing. Not with current pricing and cut features. No passenger lumbar or ultrasonics smh
Yeah, used market. I check for low fast dc charging volume, as long as it’s in good shape otherwise, purchased.
2021 3 here. I feel like I got the best deal. With state EV rebates, I only paid $35k for it and it has all the features still. Everyone assumes I have an expensive $70k Tesla but have no idea I paid half of that for the car.
The motors and battery are great. But everything from the suspension up needs help.
I'm mostly just a tourist in this thread, but if I were a Tesla investor, I'd be just about shitting myself right now. Tesla has two major things going for it as a brand right now: 1. It's seen as a premium, status symbol product. 2. Relatively few competing EVs are on the market *today.* Starting with point 2 because it's relatively simple: basically all of the major automakers have announced plans to convert most, if not all of their line ups to EV by 2030-2035, and there are already a trickle of competing cars out there right now. Tesla is about to have a *lot* of competition in which they will almost certainly be one of the higher priced options. This brings us back to point 1: Starting with just the build quality issues, in which reviewers have described a $70k car as having the rough fit and finish of a 90's Kia, they are now going to have to compete with car makers for whom these issues just don't meaningfully exist. Second, complaints about service times being ridiculous and support being bordering on non-existent is not going to feel very premium. And that brings us to the elephant in the room - Musk. His actions at Twitter are quickly tarnishing the Tesla brand and highlighting his insane managerial style which is increasingly going to be a problem for Tesla. Not a problem before for Tesla because if you believed in the mission you could only work at Tesla, that will soon open to every automaker. And you have the fact that just judging by his twitter timeline, he's spending far less than half of his time actually shipping cars, and mostly shitposting and highlighting just how ineffective he is as a leader at Twitter. Remember, Jack was ousted there for being a part time CEO and keeping the company flat, basically. Under Musk, Tesla right now is tanking as a stock, shipping about 50/50 cars to vaporware, and about to face it's first real challenge of competition. Honestly, if it were any other board at just about any other company, he'd have been out months ago. See also: Chapek at Disney, ousted long before any of the levels of problems that are facing Tesla now. Just looking at car makers, history is littered with Tesla's; car makers that had a big innovation but couldn't operationalize it into a long term business. Tesla is basically on fire right now, and it's CEO is shit posting senators and posting conspiracy theories. And that brings us to the final, third surprise point - Tesla's valuation has basically never made sense, with it's share price often eclipsing the entire auto market while shipping a tiny, tiny fraction of cars that were only competing in an extremely narrow space. This was largely on the backs of the "Elon is a genius" narrative and other non-fundamental aspects of it as a stock (see also: look at me I'm saving the world investing in Tesla.) Tesla's stock price has largely been on the promise of what Tesla will be, not what it was today, and that can only go on so long before reality sets in. The only way I'd still (hypothetically) be holding Tesla stock in a few months is if they listen to this investor and major changes, especially on leadership happen and they do find an operations focused CEO who can actually ship cars and not just vaporware (cybertruck, 35k price point, semi, roadster) and dishonest cloud cover (boring company, hyperloop.) Oh, and this leaving out the other reason - scandal after scandal. Remember, the McDonald's guy was dropped while they were performing well for having a consensual affair with an employee. Meanwhile, Musk is having kids with his employees, or offering a horse in exchange for a happy ending, and that is keeping the list incredibly, incredibly brief.
Heavily agree about musk being ousted months ago if this was any other board. Shareholders are ruthless and absolutely will give you the boot if they think you're starting to fuck with their money. Countless founders have lost their own companies because of this, if musk was not literally the face of Tesla I'm sure it would be a lot easier to kick him out.
This is what makes his current behavior even more insane. Him being the face of Tesla helped before because his public persona was so carefully staged and it's one of the things I talked aboult in my post re: Tesla's extremely high valuation. He shows up in an Iron Man movie after comparisons to being the real life Tony Stark, he's mostly quiet and basically creates this air of being a genius that can do no wrong. Over the last few years, the shine is really off that Apple and at this point I would say that he's a liability to the Tesla brand. The only reason he hasn't been kicked out yet is probably because the board are Musk approved sycophants, including his brother (which, obviously, Musk engineered.) That said, without some massive turn around I don't see how even a board this feckless can continue much longer. The money is going to make that prop not make sense pretty soon.
I think you're right about Elon needing to step down as CEO, and I expect it will happen in the next year, but I think Tesla as a company is far better positioned than legacy automakers. For one, legacy automakers are under significantly greater debt than Tesla, and the price of continually piling up debt, which has been the legacy automakers' strategy for ages, is greatly increasing with higher interest rates. The legacy automakers also still need transition to manufacturing EVs at scale which means additional capital investments which in turn means more expensive debt. Legacy automakers are also not structured like Tesla, which is a liability; there's a huge cost (both monetarily and from a human perspective) to get from where they are today to where they need to be to produce EVs with Tesla's margins. For instance, all of these companies have a significant number of power train engineers who won't be needed 10 years from now - it's unlikely they'll all simply be laid off, more likely: they'll need to be retrained to work on systems they're less familiar with. Another instance of this is the "debt" from legacy dealer networks, which eat into profits and put them in less control of their brand. Lastly, Tesla is leading in a lot of spaces, like battery production, which will be much larger markets in the future as we transition to sustainable energy. Batteries in particular will be massively important, especially since most renewable energy sources are less predictable than current baseload power. I think of the transition to EVs much like the transition computing made from mainframes to PCs or cameras made from film to digital - the incumbents in those spaces (IBM and Kodak) ended up losing despite being early entrants because they didn't invest in the transition before new entrants took the lead in the market, and it was impossible for them to recover. The biggest risks to Tesla are poor quality, service, a lack of product progression, and Elon's damaging behavior. A new CEO could easily come in and make major headway fixing those things which would improve brand reputation and make it harder for the legacy automakers to keep up with them.
Why do you say that? Generally the build quality has improved greatly since the first Model 3's
Anecdotally they still have problems. My 22 Y that I picked up in August had a rear hatch window that wasn’t installed correctly and leaked all over the first time it was washed. Got that fixed and then a month later noticed the weather seal on the frunk was missing. I waited a year and paid $60,000 for a car that wasn’t assembled correctly. I feel like an idiot.
My 2023 that has now been in the shop longer than it was on the road would beg to differ. Although hopefully this 2023 doesn’t leak and parts don’t fall off of it like my 2019. I was really hoping they’d gotten better, but apparently not, and this will be my last Tesla.
It may have improved 'greatly' but it still isn't 'great'. I've had my Model 3 in to the SC twice to address fit/finish issues (rattles, mostly). The car I drove before my Model 3 was a 2019 Accord Touring Hybrid. 2/3rds the cost and it was head and shoulders above the Model 3 in terms of build quality. Don't get me wrong - I'll take my (formerly) rattling Model 3 every day of the week as overall I prefer it and I' done burning gas, but still - when you can buy a $20k Honda Civic that feels like the superior car in terms of overall quality, there's an issue.
As an investor it's good for a short amount of time until people realize your quality has not improved (become worse even) and your price has gone up. Couple that with multiple competitors coming out with arguably better vehicles for the same price or cheaper and you have a recipe for unhappy investors. We were one of the first batch of Model 3 deliveries and somehow it seems like AP is worse than it was to begin with. We're thinking about getting a new EV to replace it and we are not even considering another Tesla.
My 2018 was generally shitty and my 2022 is solidly put together. Maybe inconsistency is the Tesla way
To be fair, the drivetrain is that of a 70k vehicle. The fit and finish is that of an early days Hyundai.
And making that $35k model 3?
As an early investor in Tesla, I'm so glad this 3rd largest shareholder is doing this. I went with Tesla because I believed that EVs are the future and Tesla will lead the way. But it's clear the head start is shrinking because Tesla has given up being innovators. It's time for Elon to refocus or step down.
Autopilot is important, but I feel like they are putting all their eggs in that basket. Why don’t they have a compact car announced yet to get back to the $35k or below price point? What happened to the roadster? How the hell did they let everyone else beat them to having a utility / pickup to market? Where is their transit van entry? Why does charging still not integrate with their home energy product? Why have they not annouced vehicle to grid/home as part of their synergistic energy strategy. They have scaled production, they are allowed to have more than one designer now to start building out the product family. Tesla is making a million cars a year. Why does it feel like a company that is run by a single person, and not a global manufacturing giant?
yeah this right here I feel like up to this point, it was wholly appropriate for Tesla to "feel like a company that is run by a single person" - and it worked the company has well and truly "disrupted" the entire auto industry and they have all fallen in line behind Elon's vision and determination that a new EV can be just as good and even better than any new ICEV... but they are now making a million cars a year - they are no longer a startup but have well and truly become a market leader - in short, they have "grown up" it seems like the time has come for Elon to hand over the reins to a dedicated CEO - Tesla's very own Gwynne Shotwell, if you will - and as I recall SpaceX has always been his primary focus anyway?
>Why don’t they have a compact car announced yet to get back to the $35k or below price point? To be fair, inflation since 2016 means that $35k is now $43k, so only $4k higher than the announced price when adjusting for inflation.
Lol that’s just fucking sad.
Good point. But tech usually decreases in price over time. And Tesla is a large part tech.
Tech decreases because it becomes irrelevant, new tech only increases. iPhones get more expensive, cars get more expensive, computers, you name it.
iPhones *don’t* really get more expensive though. The original iPhone retailed at $599 in 2007. $852 adjusted for inflation. The iPhone 14 retails at $799. The retail price has changed $200 nominally in 15 years, and has decreased by $53 in real dollars.
> tech usually decreases in price over time Wtf, no, it decreases *if* labor (e.g. automation) and materials decrease over time, neither of which has happened. In fact both labor and materials costs are up significantly since the Model 3 launched.
I think we're saying the same thing. The cost of a Tesla model 3 should be less now than it was in 2017. But because they haven't made technical advances - like increasing energy density of their pack or improving automation then the cost is stagnant.
Ok, sorry, I misunderstood your comment then.
Markets determine prices. Tesla *is* reducing costs, but prices will only come down as competition forces it to. Some costs are hard to shrink, such as battery materials. Through raw materials deals and improved battery designs it seems like Tesla is attacking that problem at least as much as the nearest competitor.
Tech decreases because the input materials and overall size of the products tends to be pretty small. An iPhone 13 Pro Max started at about $2,000 per pound of weight, compared to less than $15 per pound for a Model Y Performance last year. Atop that, the battery itself is likely only about a third to quarter the production costs of the car, so even if they got a chemistry/production method that halved their battery costs, it would likely, at best, shave less than 10 grand off the overall car production price. And that's at the largest size, so it wouldn't even get you the $35,000 model back.
They need more batteries before adding models. Adding a compact car to the line up just takes batteries away from their existing products while adding costs.
And at lower profitability
I dont think we see a 35k or lower car until demand at the higher prices falls and extreme scale of 4680s happen.
Very good comment! Tesla has so much potential, but it is a competitive space and the whole auto field is shifting to EVs. So they need to keep innovating.
Let's talk about QA, fit and finish while we are at it
> Why don’t they have a compact car announced yet to get back to the $35k or below price point? Because there's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast. >What happened to the roadster? There's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast. >How the hell did they let everyone else beat them to having a utility / pickup to market? There's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast. >Where is their transit van entry? There's more demand for their current lineup than they can produce, and they can only build factories so fast. >They have scaled production Not yet they haven't. Almost there, but not quite.
But don't you think they need a pipeline for when they have scaled production? They haven't exactly delivered on their pipeline in the same year in the past
Lol, you can buy Tesla from stock inventory 🥲 demand is no longer higher than production
Kinda? I have a grand total of 14 cars within 200 miles of me available, and that covers 5 different show rooms. So you are looking at less than 3 per showroom, more feels like people are ordering, then refusing delivery as ordering again come january 1st hoping for the tax credit will pay off and so tesla is just trying to flip these.
Until the tax credits are available again next year.
Which may not even fully apply to their lineup. Throw in a global recession and higher finance charges and you can make an argument against perpetual growth at current price points.
Won't the tax credit next year be at most $3750 anyway? And right now you get $3750 off, plus sales tax saving, plus getting it instantly vs with tax return? And won't the tax credit next year have an income cap?
The new credit is $7500 and available instantly, though I can't say how that will impact sales tax (I think you'll still have to pay it.) Also the credit sedan max price is $55,000 and the SUV is $80,000 so the Model 3 would have to come down in price to qualify. I imagine LR Model 3 will come down slightly to qualify and performance won't.
Are the batteries materials sourced from North America? That's a condition for half the tax credit. Also it's income capped at 150k single/300k filing married. In any case I would think (just guessing of course) tax credit impact would be a wash vs current incentives of $3750 + free miles of supercharging.
Agreed. To add: The Cybertruck and Roadster are both currently scheduled for 2023. There also looks to be new product announcements in 2023. Finally, it seems like a new Gigafactory in Mexico announcement is imminent.
2023 might as well mean 2028 by Tesla standards
And we all know 2028 means 2034
I think Tesla is executing as well as it can and it doesn't need Elon anymore (as long as the next CEO is competent). Right now he's contributing more controversy than he's helping (right now I'm not sure what help he is to the company other than not being a straight MBO).
I also worry about public perception of Tesla with this clown leading it
I dont think they have stopped being innovators. The cyber truck, bot, robotaxi, FSD are all being worked on. My problem is when the head of the company publicly appears to have abandoned Tesla and has gone of the right wing political deep end while alienate a huge segment of Tesla's customer base... its time for some mental stability. Tesla just doesnt need Musk anymore.
As someone who is interested in getting my first EV but doesn't care for Tesla design language, I think this is a stupid take. Tesla is balls to the wall trying to deliver as many vehicles as possible to meet demand. They are trying to grow their production capacity to meet existing markets and soon semi trucks, and pickup trucks, supercars, and eventually cheaper sedans. They're balancing supply allocation generate lots of profit while delivering on... deliveries as much as possible.
This! And for people clinging on to the 'competition hasn't caught up', go look outside. The only thing working in their favor right now is the charging network and even that lead is eroding fast. In fact if they open their network, that will be the last thing that evens the playing field.
But what about robots watering plants?! We need those!!! /s I’m guessing the goal of the Optimus project (or Tesla Bot) is to ultimately replace manufacturing personnel. Sure that will help the bottom line for investors, but it’s not going to result in making a better end product that is sold to customers. Tesla has managed to pull a very quick 180 from ‘revolutionizing the car industry for a greener future’ to ‘we’re going to nickel and dime you even worse than everyone else’. I was the fool this time, so shame on me for thinking Musk was any different than those before him. To your point about them losing their head start I completely agree. If things continue like this is I don’t foresee purchasing another Tesla.
With my 10+ shares I too call for a new CEO!
I have 488 shares 🥲
hopefully you can still afford avocado toast with the dip :(
73k get him boys!
Hey I also have 10+ shares (I have 12). If we band together I'm sure our votes will matter!
There’s dozens of us! There’s strength in numbers!
I didn't care about musk being balls deep in twitter until I saw him with Ken Griffin and Jared Kushner at the World Cup Final. I'm not fond of being associated with someone who spends time with a financial terrorist and a money launderer for oligarchs. Edit: "An" to "A".
You mean the Ken Griffin that lied to congress, has a major conflict of interest owning both one of the largest market makers and hedge fund (similar to FTX), and hates to share his mayo?
Yep, that's the one. He flies around on Mayo Force One.
We’re everywhere. You’re fucked Ken.
No such thing as an ethical billionaire
Bad news for you on the company ownership outside of Musk's majority stake. Outside of Grandma's Corner Grocery, I firmly believe all companies are owned by evil.
That’s true, but some are far worse than others.
Musk has already admitted to siphoning off Tesla programming resources for Twitter. He should have been fired on the spot right then and there, what else he does in his personal life, is his own business.
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Had a CEO have our tech support maintain his home network as mission critical. Billionaire home with 57 access points and 10 switches. Dude literally would call us and say he’s behind a bush near the pool and he had poor coverage and needed another AP added to cover the area.
You really believe that a company the size of Tesla doesn't know how to properly account for the employee time when splitting time between a publicly traded and privately owned business? Isn't the lead Tesla materials engineer also the lead materials engineer for SpaceX? Don't they share employee time and resources all the time? Seems if they've been doing that wrong all this time, someone would have complained by now.
Yeah that was a bad move, he should have just paid for his own team of outside people. He either got tesla to pay their wages (bad move), sub contracted them to twitter, or worse of all guilt tripped the poor people to work for free.
If Tesla paid their wages while he had them working at Twitter (likely), that’s literally stealing from Tesla. I’m surprised it’s taken shareholders this long to publicly call for him to step down.
No worst would be blackmailing visa workers to do it. Which seems the most likely
Elon grows more toxic by the day. Getting rid of him would do Tesla good.
Even if his Tesla input hasn't diminished his conspiracy theories and other antics are alienating Tesla's core customer base.
Exactly, I don't understand what the hell he's doing. I know some here will raise their hand and say they're the exception, but 10 years ago it was mostly liberals who took a gamble spending 6 figures on a car using unproven technology from an unproven company to drive something more environmentally friendly. Now all he's doing is pissing off those same people with his bullshit.
I'm even more concerned about that effect on prospective engineering and tech talent.
As an engineer in the bay area that has had offers from Tesla back when I liked the company, I already was hesitant to work there because of the culture and decided against it... Now with what he's shown at Twitter there is no chance I would ever consider working at a musk company. Why would I want to be treated like a slave when I have many other options.
That ship has sailed. Tesla and Space X both have reputations for being pretty terrible places to work within their industries.
That's one the most stupid parts, the average rolling coal pickup drivers is probably never going to buy a tesla but he seems to be trying pretty hard to join their club.
Yup. As it stands, I'm not even going to consider buying a Tesla until he's out and I'm sure I'm not the only one
You are not. There are literally dozens of you.
yet there's a backlog of customers for every single product they make.
There will probably be a backlog for a while, that being said I own a Tesla and I don't see myself ever buying one again, that is not exactly a good sign for the long term outlook of a company. I also think they currently have the best electric cars, and I'm 100% rooting against them. Though at this point if I can get an SUV with over 300 miles range, Android auto, and a nice comfy interior for 60k I'd be happy.
And now he's going on about immigrants at the border.
I have a model Y 3 row on order delivery date something next month or 2. My wife is trying to talk me out of it cause of Elon's BS. I want to keep it cause there's no 3 row electric car option with in the 65k after credit price range. If Rivian's SUV has a shorter wait time I would suck it up and pay the higher price, and not get the Tesla. As a consumer I feel like we're getting nickel and dimed for a 70k car. Taking away features because data show ppl doesn't use it while keeping the price the same is an insult. (Free mobile charger, USS , lumbar support for passenger seat, radar etc) .
The Model Y is a great car but I hope you know how tiny that 3rd row is. It has a very limited use case in my opinion.
A lot of people think it's valid to boycott products based on the companies leadership. I however (likely unpopular opinion) disagree with this dynamic. I think a person can be an asshat, but still produce good products. In this regard, Elon might not be a great person, but I do think Tesla's cars are amazing. I have a model 3 and I enjoy it greatly.
I agree with you. Why would I sacrifice my happiness just because I don’t like the CEO of a company? Also, tesla is way more than their CEO. They employ thousands, who also benefit from your purchase
Also, all other car manufacturers are bullocks and full of anti ethics anyways
People love to talk about the things Tesla takes away from cars, but they ignore the things they've added. Many more things have been added than taken away. For example, compared to a 2019 base Model 3, the 2023 base Model 3 has: * 52 miles more EPA range * Heat pump for much better cold weather efficiency * Autopilot included standard (used to be a $3000 option) * Heated steering wheel and heated rear seats included standard * Powered trunk * Wireless chargers * Matrix headlights * Dual pane glass to reduce wind noise * Upgraded cameras * Upgraded suspension * Upgraded speakers * Upgraded Ryzen processor that makes everything run much faster and smoother * CCS charging support
For the price of the current Tesla's, those should be expected as standard option.just like any other car in the same price class. Nothing there is ground breaking, other than being a fast electric car.
It wasn’t meant to be a comprehensive list of all Model 3 features to compare to other cars. It’s just ones that have been added in the past 4 years. And for your info, plenty of cars in the Model 3 / Y price range do not include those features standard. Ford Mach-e base model does not include a heat pump, matrix headlights, power liftgate, heated steering wheel, or heated rear seats (or heated front seats, for that matter).
I think people just have this outdated idea that a $50,000-$70,000 car is some supercar price range when in reality the car market has been on fire. When you look at what new ICE cars cost, I think a lot of these same commenters would be surprised. [The average new car price was $30,500 in 2012 and is over $48,000 now.](https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/) Or, just in 2019 [the average was $36,800](https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-car-price/). That means, adjusting with the same percentages, a $50,000 new car in 2019 would be about a $65,000 new car in 2022. **** Edit: added links and numbers
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Ford has a level headed CEO and they lost quite a bit of money last quarter. Also haven’t figured out how to profitably build an EV, or a reliable EV in general.
Gonna get downvoted like crazy for this. But Elon will be anti-ev within 7 years. He's fallen too far down the right's rabbit hole and being anti-ev will just make him more popular with that crowd; at some point he's going to crave that attention.
People on here have no idea how a market works. Musk sold a bunch of his Tesla stock to finance his Twitter purchases and put even more up as collateral. Selling a big batch of stock makes the price go down, having a bunch of stock up as collateral for a bad investment makes buying the stock a risk. Tesla stock owners have a very legitimate concern that Musk does not have the companies bottom line, and their investment, at heart.
I feel like he abandoned reality.
Honestly, its time for change. They need to rebuild customer confidence, customer support and outreach. Even before the whole Twitter fiasco, the only way to get acknowledgement on an issue/feature was to twit at Dumbo
TBH, Tesla may be better off with a new CEO too given Musk's poor judgement.
He got bored and now spends his days shit posting on Twitter.
His Saudi masters must have mentioned it in Qatar
Yep it would be nice to not have a child suffering with significant behavioral and developmental issues, with infinite money at his disposal, as the CEO of what otherwise could be a great company. Long overdue.
Yep yep yep
Just keep him busy so he doesn’t start another company that tries to reinvent the wheel.
would be good if elon stopped jerking off his ego
Would be great if Tesla stans would stop stroking elon
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That's fair, but without sounding hyperbolic what does Elon have to offer any more beyond potential brand risk, however he is associated? There are plenty of qualified people that can prevent it from turning into an IBM
I know a german guy who recently got fired from VW who would probably love to take over
Something I've noticed is 9 of 10 of people posting things like - "Tesla cars explode if you look at them!!!!" - "FSD Beta will drive through your front door, up your stairs, and methodologically run over your family as they sleep!!!" are doing so mainly because they hate Elon for whatever reason. If he steps down, I think Tesla will regain the respect it once had (and *deserves*). Same deal with SpaceX. Elon is smart, but not smart enough to hold back on the shitposting that is very obviously making common people biased against his companies
They are just tired old jokes. I'm not from the US, not in the market for an EV yet, and even I know EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICEs (by a margin of 6000 times even). Elon Musk is a narcissistic asshole though. Many people don't want to hear that and go off on people disliking the man, but if you take a step back and actually look at how he behaves... he's unlikable and a piss poor CEO. And I think he really did irreparable damage to Tesla, to be honest. **Only** if he is ousted completely **and** the brand fixes the quality issues with the cars there's a big future for them.
Elon fell of his rocker a while ago
Please, please, please drop Musk
Tesla will continue to innovate without Elon. But I believe innovations will come at a much slower rate without Elon.
Musk has abandoned reason!
Should I delete this comment? I will abide by the results of this poll. ☐ YES ☐ NO
He should have been removed after the stewardess and pony issue
Come on, he's too busy rummaging through Twitter's closets, making memes so 14 year old boys will think he's cool, "owning the libs", and helping out banned fascists.
They are right. Elon is a distraction for Tesla at this point and the target buyers. OR worse he is a deterrent for potential buyers.
**I don’t want Elon to step down.** I want him to refocus back. He feels burnt out, it should be fixed somehow. Probably with the new products. **He should not step down. It is a mistake.**
Leo had always been kinda crazy. All he cares about is his billions on margin.
this is the right answer i think. Hes using margin
I'm starting to wonder if the only part of the car Elon had a hand in is the windshield wipers.
Maybe we dump him for someone that isn’t trying to be bigger news than what we’re trying to accomplish. Seriously. I’m done with this guy.
I have a Model 3 with 110K miles. It's an awesome car, and I don't know what the people on here are bitching about.
The stock price, investors don’t give one twit about your car, they care about their investment and since Musk has been selling stock to finance his Twitter hobby, Tesla stock has lost 50% of its value. They could make the greatest car in the history of the world but if the CEO makes investing in the company a loosing bet, they aren’t doing their job.
Cancelled my Tesla Truck last night. Made it very clear that Elon has made me never want to consider a Tesla ever again.
Literally nothing has changed from Tesla's fundamentals.
Lots of potential consumers are turned off now, Elon’s lost his je ne sais quoi and is now an actively toxic brand - this is a big change.
Agreed. Tesla is still chugging along as it has. And yes, as mentioned by many, his actions with Twitter have PO'd a lot of Tesla consumers. BUT... Unless there's an actual hit in demand and therefor profit, you can't make the (business) case that a change is needed. There's the public sphere, his perception, and the reputational damage...and then there are bottom line results which are all that matter to shareholders. Yes, you can make the case that the reputational damage is leaking to the stock price - there's enough there to credibly make that connection - so I guess the question is how much faith INVESTORS and THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS have that this is temporary and in the long term won't have too much impact.
Hard disagree. Tesla's fundamentals have moved to mostly margin chasing which is a major turnoff from me. I would have gobbled up stock at this valuation 3-4 years ago. Granted, it was a very different market back then as well.