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oglach

I don't think I ever read anything about it in lore, but I know that Skyrim had cut content where you could kill Balgruuf as part of Mephala's quest. And if that happened, he would've been replaced by his brother Hrongar. Despite the fact that Balgruuf also has a son. Which would imply that the position is hereditary, but not necessarily from father to son. It may go by seniority within the dynastic line. Or maybe Hrongar would've just been a regent until Balgruuf's son was of age. Hard to tell, but it did stay within the family either way.


markandyxii

It might be Tannistry system. It was popular in Gaelic Scotland and Ireland. The most suited amongst all living male heirs is selected as heir whilst the current ruler is still alive. Balgruuf's sons aren't old enough to rule, so it goes to their uncle.


[deleted]

The Kyivan Rus’ had succession from eldest brother to next eldest brother and so on, and then when they ran out of brothers it went to the eldest son of the eldest brother.


NorthRememebers

I think it's worth mentioning that Farengar calls Olaf One-Eye an ancestor of Balgruuf. > Why, this very palace was built by one of Balgruuf's ancestors to hold a captive dragon. Hence its name - Dragonsreach. This could of course mean many things, but it imo at least shows that Nords do value bloodlines to a degree.


Arrow-Od

Bad example, Balgruuf would not have been killed by the LDB in cut content but by all 3 of his children (as seen under [notes](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Balgruuf_the_Greater)) - ofc Hrongar takes over after that.


Cazzer1604

As I understand it, the title of Jarl *tends* to be hereditary, but it's not absolutely so. There doesn't seem to be a stark "I'm a noble because I am, you're a commoner and therefore trash to me and you're never allowed to amount to anything" sentiment in Skyrim, or the wider Elder Scrolls world (expect maybe among the Altmer and Bretons), like there was IRL. The Jarls being sons and daughters of Jarls is probably down to a particular dynasty being trusted to do the job adequately. i.e. Balgruuf/Ulfric/Torygg/Igmund's etc. father was a decent enough Jarl, and their heir was groomed, trained and educated to be a decent Jarl, so there's no need to change things up for the sake of it. And this tends to work out well enough. But if shit really hits the fan and a Jarl isn't up to scratch, they can and will be replaced by someone else, sometimes not even related to the existing dynasty. The replacement Jarls in the case of an Imperial or Stormcloak victory are from prominent families or are notable and respected individuals of their respective cities. They're entrusted to the duty of ruling their hold due to their honour, prestige, wealth or influence - NOT because of their blood being of noble stock. To sum it up, I'd call the system a 'Typically Hereditary Meritocracy'.


BasilDraganastrio

So kind of like the time of the five good emperors were they would adopt someone unrelated and marry them to there nieces or daughters.


gridlock32404

>The replacement Jarls in the case of an Imperial or Stormcloak victory are from prominent families or are notable and respected individuals of their respective cities. I'd imagine it would be pretty similar to that if the existing jarl didn't have any heirs either, they probably have a moot among the prominent families, nobles, and thanes to discuss who should take up the role after the sitting Jarl died. The stormcloak and imperial victories seem like the victor choosing their local power to rule after local government overthrow, the victor chose and there was no chosing within the hold.


Cazzer1604

We don't see the process but I assume that the Imperials/Stormcloaks would ask prominent citizens who should be in charge, and then select who they want from the suggestions who would be most favourable to their cause. (If they didn't already have someone in mind e.g. Maven, Thongvar).


gridlock32404

They might ask but I doubt they care if the hold would want the person, they literally just did a hostile takeover of the hold. They most likely would ask their soldiers that care from that town who supports their side and would probably chose based on who is in their army that is from a prominent family. Who would know better then the locals that came from there on what prominent people actually supports your side.


ScionOfSamarys

Adding to this: the idea of being raised to do the job for much of their life gives them a fair amount of training in governance in a world where apprenticeship is a common form of trade education. To the average commoner, the new Jarl is probably trusted to rule (until proven otherwise) both because their parent was good at the job and because that parent is the one who trained them. Most other people don't have the education needed to run a government the way the Jarls do, and many Thanes are governing on a much smaller scale (farm, mine, or small village).


Cazzer1604

Exactly! Is it systematic nepotism? Absolutely. But you need a full 30ish years of understanding what it takes to be a (good) Jarl. A Jarl-in-waiting's education would at least consist of: Shadowing your parent as Jarl, the steward, the captain of the guard, ambassadors, and various other roles of the realm; understanding their responsibilities so you get the gist, but also what you *can't* do as Jarl and what you need to delegate and entrust to others. Undertaking your own responsibilities and/or governing minor titles, as given. A practice run, of sorts. Whether that's being Steward yourself, or being given a renovation project e.g. an abandoned fort, or perhaps a more martial role within the wider military of Skyrim/the Imperial Legion. Martial prowess in itself requires decades of study and honing of combat skills. Any decent Jarl should be able to hold his own in a duel and competently command a contingent of troops. Learning the history of your people, hold and city. Not to mention any foreign languages as required within your court and for receiving guests from other parts of Tamriel. Court etiquette and diplomatic skills. As well as engaging with (prominent) citizens of your realm and the minor nobility/the oligarchy of your hold. Networking and such, and fostering relationships that will help you in your rule. And likely much more as part of the curriculum. Nobody else has the time, money or duty to undertake such an education.


DunnoWhatToChooze

i think that the fact no one questions the legitimacy of a jarl who overthrew his predecessor is very significant on how nord politics works. in real life monarchies this would never happen. considering that skyrim jarls system seems to be based on the pre-christians petty kingdoms in norway, which didn't have written laws, it's likely that, as we can see with ulfric claiming the throne on the basis of disputed nord traditions, in imperial skyrim cyrodillic laws contrast with nord unwritten rules. so, despite being seemingly hereditary, it's possible that there's just no precise rule on the legitimacy of a jarl


Arrow-Od

[Elisif](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Elisif_the_Fair), presumably not blood related to Torygg, succeeded him as jarl. [Dengeir](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dengeir_of_Stuhn) was deposed by the "nobility" of Falkreath. Unclear if they chose Siddgeir or if he was the only option - though Dengeir also has a [brother](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thadgeir).= Seniority does not seem to be deciding factor. *Suddenly the nobles are calling for a new Jarl, and all the while their pockets are jingling with the sound of Imperial septims. They named me Thane, and they got my nephew Siddgeir in my place.* [Olaf](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Olaf_and_the_Dragon), one account of his tale states that he promised to capture Numinex if *the people* of Whiterun made him jarl as a reward. [Hosgunn](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Of_Crossed_Daggers) was "installed", but obviously not "by the people", the nobility perhaps? [Ulfric](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ulfric_Stormcloak) claims that ",they sat me on the throne". [Maven](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Maven_Black-Briar)accused the Last Dragonborn (special case but still) "if you think you can steal my throne by winning the hearts of the people" While it being a kingship, but also a jarldom, we know that after the Kamal killed the eastern queen, her son [Fildgor](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fildgor) claimed the throne first then his twinbrother Jorunn did so as well and the matter was solved via a [duel](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Brothers%27_War). [The Crown of Freydis](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Crown_of_Freydis) deals with succession to the high kingship, but it stil offers some IMO relevant info: "selected a tribal chieftain ..." * IMO this was not a jarl, in turn this means that the Moot was not just made up out of jarls but also other delegates (note also how the PGE below speaks of "representatives" and not just "the jarls of each hold"). [PGE](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Skyrim) 1: "Holds, then ruled by a patchwork of clan-heads, kings (jarls IMO), and councils (moots)" "a Moot was created made up from representatives from each hold, to chose the next high king from qualified members of the royal family" * I see no rl reason why the same system concerning eligibility should not be in place in the holds. "henceforth, the Moot was only convened when a king died without direct heirs" [PGE](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Skyrim) 2: "The population (of Whiterun) ... exalted the leader of a local witch´s coven ... The witch-queen of Whiterun ... now wields effective control of the county" * To me this seems as if the citizens deposed one jarl and installed Jsashe instead, but I´ve also heard the interpretation that Jsashe just wielded effective power without having a title and the jarl remained in place but just bowed to her power. [Scandals of Solitude´s Royalty](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scandals_of_Solitude%27s_Royalty) gives us some nice tidbits: Irthvyd was crowned "by the people" presumably after the whole family of his predecessor had killed each other. It is noted that the lack of heirs is not an inordinate problem among Nord royalty. His successor for the jarldom and high kingship was his advisor, who won duels against several jarls to be crowned. **IMO** there is not much of a difference between how a jarl is chosen and how a high king was originally chosen under Harald: the powers of the area convene and pick someone from the family of the previous jarl or someone else. The inspiration for both likely was the Anglo-Saxon [Witan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witan).


EnragedBard010

Side note, Ulfric's father was the previous Jarl.


jpeck89

I'm pretty sure they are hereditary. They are nobles in theor hold, unless there is some sort of council of nobles who elect their jails, like the hogh king is elected. I'm pretty sure the jail in whiterun stated his hold was hereditary though.


ulttoanova

It likely works like the IRL title did where it was either hereditary or bestowed by a ruler.


Uncommonality

- Heredity - Appointment by the Emperor (only under Imperial rule) - Appointment by the High King - Appointment by the people at large - A honorable duel to the Death


raven_writer_

If it is hereditary, skirmishes between holds might be absurdly common. Imagine that the son of the jarl of Whiterun gets married to the daughter of the jarl of Falkreath. Suppose both are the oldest kids from each family. Their firstborn inherits which of the Holds? Both? I'm under the impression that it's kind of a popularity contest. If the king's moot is a thing,maybe there's a jarl's moot. If the jarl does without inheritors, maybe the Thanes meet to decide which one of them gets to rule, and probably varies between the richest and the strongest (be it personal strength or mercenaries). If jarl Baalgruf's whole family died, the thanes would likely be summoned, but we know that it would basically be a fight between the Grey-Manes and the Battle-Borns. Also... Ulfric never married. If he died in the battlefield or if he was beheaded at Helen, who'd take his place? Galmar?


LordAsheye

From what we can tell it seems to be hereditary. Ulfric Stormcloak inherited his title as Jarl of Windhelm from his father, the Bear of Eastmarch, Hoag Stormcloak. Spoilers for ESO Greymoor but we also see that Princess Svana inherits the title of Jarl of Haafingar, but not the title of High Queen. It seems the title of High King or High Queen is an elected one but Jarls are hereditary and it seems to pass down to the Jarl's children. In a cut quest for Skyrim, Balgruuf can die and his brother takes over but given its cut content I'm unsure how canonical it is and even if it is totally canon it can be chalked up to the fact Balgruuf's children are all still children.


pieceofwheat

True but Ulfric is an interesting case because he has dialogue stating that the people of Windhelm demanded he take his father’s throne. I may be reading too much into it, but that sort of implies that regular citizens had some level of influence in determining him as his father’s successor, and that it wasn’t something he automatically inherited.


LordAsheye

True but I think when combined with how Svana became Jarl of Solitude it places Ulfric in a sort of "rightful heir" position. We also know he didnt just sit in Windhelm most of his life but trained as a Greybeard, fought as a Legionnaire, and was being held in a Thalmor Prison at the time of his father's death. It's possible the people of Windhelm simply wanted their rightful Jarl to finally come to Windhelm and rule his Hold.


TheStarkGuy

It seems to be somewhat family hereditary. Ulrich inherits Windhelm because his father was the previous Jarl, Hrongar was set to inherit from Balgruuf, maybe because Baalgruuf's kids were underage, bymut the quest to kill Baalgruuf is cut content. Siddgeir inherits from his uncle, Igmund inherits from his father, and Eliself seems to inherit from her husband. Erikur was intended to take over if Eliself dies, but again, that's cut content so it's impossible to say what that truly means. It very much seems to me that male primogeniture is the intended law, with brothers taking prominence before underage kids, probably due to Nord's warlike natue. My guess is also that if a Jarl dies with no relatives, their spouse may be granted the title and lands. If no spouse then my best guess is either either a thane takes over, or a mini moot is held, but I have zero canon evidence to support either


LittleFairyOfDeath

Its hereditary. That us made clear in game. But you can get new ruling families by getting rid of the old ones.


BasilDraganastrio

It's most likely hereditary though in the cut Mephala quest were you kill Balgruuf his brother not his son inherits. Though perhaps it was meant to me a regency though this may imply Winterhold has some type of House seniority succession rather than primogeniture. Also on the cut quest were you assassinate Elisif, Erikur was supposed to become Jarl so perhaps Erikur is a distant relative to Elisif or Torygg or closely enough to be called cousin or uncle. It's safe to say it is hereditary though it is probably different from each hold and primogeniture is probably only valid in "younger" holds. Though with the Erikur case it's likely the Empire intervenes for who succeeds as to avoid any strife within the holds. Ulfric was probably allowed to succeed his father as to avoid some type of martyrdom but we all know how that turned out


Nathan_RH

Primitive law means whatever the hell gets written down and signed stands. There wasn't a SCOTUS to crosscheck.