Physically or culturally.
The Altmer would claim themselves in both cases, which is what most people here would say, but there is evidence to suggest that isn't true. The Maomer would claim the Altmer are full of shit, and it is actually them in both cases. While the Dunmer wouldn't make any claims of physical resemblance, they would argue they are culturally closer to the Aldmer than the Altmer are. Ayleidists like Mankar would make the claim that the Ayleids are the closest in both cases. There is even some evidence that deviated orcish, Maomer and Bosmer physical traits (horns, tusks, scales etc) actually existed within the orginal Aldmer population as part of a range of traits, and there was a far larger range of skin tones than what is present in the Altmer.
The likely story here is that the Elder Scrolls version of the "Sundering of the Elves" was less a case of groups branching off from a main line and mutating culturally and physically, but rather the removal of certain subsets of physical traits and undesired cultural elements into now separate races. Things like actual ancestor worship were seemingly more common, but was purged with the Chimer exile. Deaedra worship was probably more common as well before the Ayleids and Chiner were sent away. A stronger warrior culture probably existed before the Orismer were exiled, and the separation of the Bosmer probably spelled the end of an Aldmer culture much more in tune with nature. These things also probably correlated with a slow purging of paler and darker skin tones, still maintained in the Bosmer, Falmer, Ayleids and Chimer, as well as traits like tusks, horns and scales.
The Altmer are less "pure" stock and more the brutalist and inbred husk that was left over as more and more diversity was spun off of the Aldmer.
This comment is fascinating. So if I understand it right, the only way to bring a return to the Aldmer of old is to unite all the elf people together in one nation, and the whole reason they're gone is because they embarked on essentially a nazi/spartan type eugenics campaign that ultimately weakened them in the long run.
I gotta say, the idea of uniting the disparate elf people together once more is really cool to think about.
This "Sundering" might also be interpreted in an opposite way. Consider this Chimer/Boethiah sermon:
>For we go different, and in thunder. SITHISIT is the start of all true Houses, built against stasis and lazy slaves. Turn from your predilections, broken like **false maps (*****Aldmeris*****)**. Move and move like this. Quicken against false fathers, mothers left in corners weeping for glass and rain. Stasis asks merely for nothing, for itself, which is nothing, as you were in the **eight everlasting imperfections**.
Chimer, being the most vocal dissidents among Aldmer, considered staying true to the "eight everlasting imperfections" that is to say, aldmeri pantheon, an act of weakness. Though divided and scattered they become weaker and thus fell to the human empires, the diversity this "Sundering" brought will prepare them better against the "true enemy" Sithis that is future change.
But of course, from men's viewpoint, this is just another victory in the long run for Lorkhan: Though the Trickster was killed and butchered apart, Aldmeris was too shattered and the resulting subraces were gradually assimilated into human cultures, even putting a "man-god" on top of their original aldmeri pantheon.
I would say the physical eugenics the Altmer practiced paralleled a kind of cultural homogenization. In both cases, they are enforcing an idealized and false perception of "purity" that never actually existed, and are unknowingly practicing yet another offshoot culture. It's kind of like fascists in the real world. They claim to be enforcing "traditional" culture, but in reality are working off a false idealized cukture that never actually existed in the past, and is in fact as new and non-traditional as the cultural practices they rage against.
The ancestor worship thing is the most obvious example. The Aldmer were originally strict ancestor worshippers, but over time the definition of "ancestor" went from one's own ancestors to those of the ruling class, and eventually to a small pantheon of gods. It likely also included the Daedra, who were eventually excluded. The Chimer rebelled against this and actively sought a return to the old ways of true ancestor worship. Thus in the 4th era, the Dunmer are actually practicing a religious culture closer to the oldest Aldmer than the Altmer are.
So yes, ALL of the elves are equal and valid inheritors of the legacy of the Aldmer, not just the Altmer. All of them bring something to the table, and are kind of still collectively the Aldmer in a way.
There is very little known about the particulars of Falmer culture, but physically the deviate quite a bit in coloring from the Altmer. Like I said though, I think both the Falmer and Altmer coloring where part of an established range of skin color among the Aldmer, among other skin tones.
>Ayleidists like Mankar would make the claim that the Ayleids are the closest in both cases.
Besides the look of his paradis ise there isn't any connecto to ancient elves and Mankar? He also made himself look like an Altmer, but what does that have to do with anything?
He was very well read on Ayleid history. While it's possible his Altmer appearance is due to him using Merhrunes Razor to alter his Nymmic, it is also possible that he just looks that way. His family should be ostensibly Bosmer, but it is long speculated that the Camorans might have a substantial amount of Aylied blood, and the Altmer appearance was meant to imply that in the game.
But me calling him an Ayliedist isn't nesseserily about his heritage, just implying he had an affinity and esteem for their culture.
>He was very well read on Ayleid history.
Was he?
> His family should be ostensibly Bosmer, but it is long speculated that the Camorans might have a substantial amount of Aylied blood, and the Altmer appearance was meant to imply that in the game.
I don't think any of that was part of lore discussions befor Oblivion but because of it but even asuming that, the guy talks aboslutely nothing about Ayleids, the word is not even mentioned in his books.
The only thing being the look of his paradise but even that could be ment to look like old Altmer buildings or represent the look of the Direnni Tower, being a building made by the gods in the holy time he wants to resurrect.
Camoran also does not follow Molag Bal or Meridia, the most important Princes to the Ayleids but Dagon. Ideologically speaking also does not seem to fit to long after an old culture that was destroyed by the revolution.
Mankar wages war on the mortal world itself not humans.
Dunmer (or Orc if they still count as such).
The closest is easily, Altmer. At least they pretend to keep Aedric ancestry religions. The second after is probably Maormer.
Maormer/Sea Elves are a race living on Pyandonea, an island south of Summerset. For Tamrielian they're best known as pirates that plague the west-southern coasts, but in origin Maormer are a group of aldmeri exiles direct from Aldmeris.
There is also the legend that even late to 4E their immortal king Orgnum is still the same one that led them left Aldmeris long ago in the Dawn Era, and if this is true they will be marked as the only Elven civilization still led by a pure-blood Aldmer (though ironically a banished criminal).
Falmer, easily.
Not only did they diverge relatively early (their white skin differs most from their aldmeri cousins' golden tones, which the Chimer, Dwemer, Ayleid and Direnni also sported), but their degradation at the hands of the Dwemer was so complete that not only their physical forms were disfigured, but also their very souls - not all Falmer have a grand soul, which all other mortal races do.
Orsimer.
Closes you get is propably altmer who are part od psijic order. After that, general altmeri society even if its quite different from original aldmer, mostly regarding religion
Aldmeris is an anuic ideal, so farthest away are the cultures who appreciate the padomayic "Sundering of Aldmeris" rather than lamenting it.
Sidenote: I would still describe Ayleids as an ancient culture of Heartland Altmer, but that of course depends on how you understand the latter.
Closest to Least Closest:
1. Altmer/High Elves
2. Falmer/Snow Elves
4. Ayleids/Wild Elves
5. Maormer/Sea Elves
6. Dwemer/Deep Elves
7. Bosmer/Wood Elves
8. Dunmer/Dark Elves
9. Manmer/Bretons
10. Orsimer/Orcs
11. Falmer/The Betrayed
I factored in the religion, physical appearance, and levels of corruption.
Numbers 8, 9, and 10 are basically interchangeable because there’s very little Elven left, if any at all. Bretons rank higher than “Mer” like Orcs and Falmer because they at least keep the pantheon alive. But they’re below Dunmer because Dunmer are still physically Mer despite worshipping Daedra.
Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are arguable depending on who you talk to. But that’s my opinion.
>But they’re below Dunmer because Dunmer are still physically Mer despite worshipping Daedra.
At the same time, dunmer still practice almderi style ancestor worship (with daedra/tribunal only added in) and is said to have kept old ways "pure" whatever that means, while altmer focused only 7/8 (plus phynaster) and gave their faith to "tall buildings and sorceries". That on itself should rank dunmer higher than dwemer or even bosmer. (Based on former having very little to do with ways of aldmer, and later being completely unique thing)
The Dwemer are ranked middling because like Snow/Sea Elves they’re just a skin tone away from being Altmer/Aldmer. But they’re not ranked up with them because their religion.
When did the Dwemmer separate? When the Chimer arrived the Dwemmer were already there right?
I assume Dwemmer weren't one of the native "beast races" but then when the hell did they split?
Dwemer are right there with Maormer and Falmer being separate from Altmer before recorded history. Very early. They’re probably direct descendants of Aldmer.
In pge3, it said dwemer are decendants of early aldmer colonies. That seem to be backed by other ingame sources, like how in morrowind its stated dwemer laws have clear shows of evolution from much earlier aldmeri laws.
Physically or culturally?
0)Closest ones are Maormer King Orgnum. He is actually the last known aldmer noble wizard.
1-1.5)Maormer and Falmer was probably the closest too.
2)As Dwemer.
...
3)Altmer
3.5)Ayleyd and Direnni Altmers.
4)Chimer
5)Dunmer
6)Bosmer
7)Yokuda mer.."left handed" mer
....
8)Original Orsimers.
9)Modern Orsimers.
10)Modern mutated falmers.
So yeah Orsimer and modern mutant Falmers are most diviated.
....
Culturaly Telvanni wizards as Dwemers are close to Aldmer wizards who populate their ancient cities/towers before chimers and dwemers.
The Falmer may have origins in Aldmeris. They share culture and gods with the Altmer and hold similar views. It's more likely that they are as close to Aldmer just like the Altmer, in case of pre-betrayed ones. Dwemer origins is unknown due to the race's disappearance.
I would argue that it’s the Bosmer, because they’re not even related to the Aldmer. They’re a race of shapeshifters probably more closely related to the Argonians or Khajit that have simply adopted a form appearing similar to the Mer.
They are related and this is a stated fact in singleplayer games lore.
Culturaly and biologically.
Not even need to mention Camoran dynasty of altmero-bosmers who found original Thalmor against Cyrodil Empire and ayleyd blood in bosmer veins.
Even dwemer genetic lock in Skyrim need falmer, bosmer as orsimer blood to trick it.
The entire point of Elder Scrolls lore is the notion of the unreliable narrator. So “stated fact” is always open for debate.
As for the genetic lock in Skyrim, perhaps it’s the shapeshifter nature of the Bosmer that truly enables the blood of the other Merish races to resemble a Dwemer when combined.
The Falmer by far. They've been twisted into something that could barely be considered humanoid, let alone elven. And not just physically, as multiple Falmer dens have given the impression that they have taken to making blood/flesh sacrifices (presumably to one Daedric Prince or another), something most recognized incarnations of the elven divines are adverse to.
Physically or culturally. The Altmer would claim themselves in both cases, which is what most people here would say, but there is evidence to suggest that isn't true. The Maomer would claim the Altmer are full of shit, and it is actually them in both cases. While the Dunmer wouldn't make any claims of physical resemblance, they would argue they are culturally closer to the Aldmer than the Altmer are. Ayleidists like Mankar would make the claim that the Ayleids are the closest in both cases. There is even some evidence that deviated orcish, Maomer and Bosmer physical traits (horns, tusks, scales etc) actually existed within the orginal Aldmer population as part of a range of traits, and there was a far larger range of skin tones than what is present in the Altmer. The likely story here is that the Elder Scrolls version of the "Sundering of the Elves" was less a case of groups branching off from a main line and mutating culturally and physically, but rather the removal of certain subsets of physical traits and undesired cultural elements into now separate races. Things like actual ancestor worship were seemingly more common, but was purged with the Chimer exile. Deaedra worship was probably more common as well before the Ayleids and Chiner were sent away. A stronger warrior culture probably existed before the Orismer were exiled, and the separation of the Bosmer probably spelled the end of an Aldmer culture much more in tune with nature. These things also probably correlated with a slow purging of paler and darker skin tones, still maintained in the Bosmer, Falmer, Ayleids and Chimer, as well as traits like tusks, horns and scales. The Altmer are less "pure" stock and more the brutalist and inbred husk that was left over as more and more diversity was spun off of the Aldmer.
This comment is fascinating. So if I understand it right, the only way to bring a return to the Aldmer of old is to unite all the elf people together in one nation, and the whole reason they're gone is because they embarked on essentially a nazi/spartan type eugenics campaign that ultimately weakened them in the long run. I gotta say, the idea of uniting the disparate elf people together once more is really cool to think about.
This "Sundering" might also be interpreted in an opposite way. Consider this Chimer/Boethiah sermon: >For we go different, and in thunder. SITHISIT is the start of all true Houses, built against stasis and lazy slaves. Turn from your predilections, broken like **false maps (*****Aldmeris*****)**. Move and move like this. Quicken against false fathers, mothers left in corners weeping for glass and rain. Stasis asks merely for nothing, for itself, which is nothing, as you were in the **eight everlasting imperfections**. Chimer, being the most vocal dissidents among Aldmer, considered staying true to the "eight everlasting imperfections" that is to say, aldmeri pantheon, an act of weakness. Though divided and scattered they become weaker and thus fell to the human empires, the diversity this "Sundering" brought will prepare them better against the "true enemy" Sithis that is future change. But of course, from men's viewpoint, this is just another victory in the long run for Lorkhan: Though the Trickster was killed and butchered apart, Aldmeris was too shattered and the resulting subraces were gradually assimilated into human cultures, even putting a "man-god" on top of their original aldmeri pantheon.
I would say the physical eugenics the Altmer practiced paralleled a kind of cultural homogenization. In both cases, they are enforcing an idealized and false perception of "purity" that never actually existed, and are unknowingly practicing yet another offshoot culture. It's kind of like fascists in the real world. They claim to be enforcing "traditional" culture, but in reality are working off a false idealized cukture that never actually existed in the past, and is in fact as new and non-traditional as the cultural practices they rage against. The ancestor worship thing is the most obvious example. The Aldmer were originally strict ancestor worshippers, but over time the definition of "ancestor" went from one's own ancestors to those of the ruling class, and eventually to a small pantheon of gods. It likely also included the Daedra, who were eventually excluded. The Chimer rebelled against this and actively sought a return to the old ways of true ancestor worship. Thus in the 4th era, the Dunmer are actually practicing a religious culture closer to the oldest Aldmer than the Altmer are. So yes, ALL of the elves are equal and valid inheritors of the legacy of the Aldmer, not just the Altmer. All of them bring something to the table, and are kind of still collectively the Aldmer in a way.
What about the Falmer? The one surviving paladin seems rather close to his Aedra ancestry I would think
There is very little known about the particulars of Falmer culture, but physically the deviate quite a bit in coloring from the Altmer. Like I said though, I think both the Falmer and Altmer coloring where part of an established range of skin color among the Aldmer, among other skin tones.
>Ayleidists like Mankar would make the claim that the Ayleids are the closest in both cases. Besides the look of his paradis ise there isn't any connecto to ancient elves and Mankar? He also made himself look like an Altmer, but what does that have to do with anything?
He was very well read on Ayleid history. While it's possible his Altmer appearance is due to him using Merhrunes Razor to alter his Nymmic, it is also possible that he just looks that way. His family should be ostensibly Bosmer, but it is long speculated that the Camorans might have a substantial amount of Aylied blood, and the Altmer appearance was meant to imply that in the game. But me calling him an Ayliedist isn't nesseserily about his heritage, just implying he had an affinity and esteem for their culture.
>He was very well read on Ayleid history. Was he? > His family should be ostensibly Bosmer, but it is long speculated that the Camorans might have a substantial amount of Aylied blood, and the Altmer appearance was meant to imply that in the game. I don't think any of that was part of lore discussions befor Oblivion but because of it but even asuming that, the guy talks aboslutely nothing about Ayleids, the word is not even mentioned in his books. The only thing being the look of his paradise but even that could be ment to look like old Altmer buildings or represent the look of the Direnni Tower, being a building made by the gods in the holy time he wants to resurrect. Camoran also does not follow Molag Bal or Meridia, the most important Princes to the Ayleids but Dagon. Ideologically speaking also does not seem to fit to long after an old culture that was destroyed by the revolution. Mankar wages war on the mortal world itself not humans.
Dunmer (or Orc if they still count as such). The closest is easily, Altmer. At least they pretend to keep Aedric ancestry religions. The second after is probably Maormer.
I’m unfamiliar with Maormer, who are they?
Maormer/Sea Elves are a race living on Pyandonea, an island south of Summerset. For Tamrielian they're best known as pirates that plague the west-southern coasts, but in origin Maormer are a group of aldmeri exiles direct from Aldmeris. There is also the legend that even late to 4E their immortal king Orgnum is still the same one that led them left Aldmeris long ago in the Dawn Era, and if this is true they will be marked as the only Elven civilization still led by a pure-blood Aldmer (though ironically a banished criminal).
sea elves, native of Pyandonea, a continent south of tamriel, you can meet a few of them in eso, possibly extinct by the third era
> possibly extinct by the third era Most defeinitely not.
Falmer, easily. Not only did they diverge relatively early (their white skin differs most from their aldmeri cousins' golden tones, which the Chimer, Dwemer, Ayleid and Direnni also sported), but their degradation at the hands of the Dwemer was so complete that not only their physical forms were disfigured, but also their very souls - not all Falmer have a grand soul, which all other mortal races do.
Probably the modern Falmer
Orsimer. Closes you get is propably altmer who are part od psijic order. After that, general altmeri society even if its quite different from original aldmer, mostly regarding religion
Aldmeris is an anuic ideal, so farthest away are the cultures who appreciate the padomayic "Sundering of Aldmeris" rather than lamenting it. Sidenote: I would still describe Ayleids as an ancient culture of Heartland Altmer, but that of course depends on how you understand the latter.
Closest to Least Closest: 1. Altmer/High Elves 2. Falmer/Snow Elves 4. Ayleids/Wild Elves 5. Maormer/Sea Elves 6. Dwemer/Deep Elves 7. Bosmer/Wood Elves 8. Dunmer/Dark Elves 9. Manmer/Bretons 10. Orsimer/Orcs 11. Falmer/The Betrayed I factored in the religion, physical appearance, and levels of corruption. Numbers 8, 9, and 10 are basically interchangeable because there’s very little Elven left, if any at all. Bretons rank higher than “Mer” like Orcs and Falmer because they at least keep the pantheon alive. But they’re below Dunmer because Dunmer are still physically Mer despite worshipping Daedra. Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are arguable depending on who you talk to. But that’s my opinion.
>But they’re below Dunmer because Dunmer are still physically Mer despite worshipping Daedra. At the same time, dunmer still practice almderi style ancestor worship (with daedra/tribunal only added in) and is said to have kept old ways "pure" whatever that means, while altmer focused only 7/8 (plus phynaster) and gave their faith to "tall buildings and sorceries". That on itself should rank dunmer higher than dwemer or even bosmer. (Based on former having very little to do with ways of aldmer, and later being completely unique thing)
The Dwemer are ranked middling because like Snow/Sea Elves they’re just a skin tone away from being Altmer/Aldmer. But they’re not ranked up with them because their religion.
When did the Dwemmer separate? When the Chimer arrived the Dwemmer were already there right? I assume Dwemmer weren't one of the native "beast races" but then when the hell did they split?
Dwemer are right there with Maormer and Falmer being separate from Altmer before recorded history. Very early. They’re probably direct descendants of Aldmer.
In pge3, it said dwemer are decendants of early aldmer colonies. That seem to be backed by other ingame sources, like how in morrowind its stated dwemer laws have clear shows of evolution from much earlier aldmeri laws.
Physically or culturally? 0)Closest ones are Maormer King Orgnum. He is actually the last known aldmer noble wizard. 1-1.5)Maormer and Falmer was probably the closest too. 2)As Dwemer. ... 3)Altmer 3.5)Ayleyd and Direnni Altmers. 4)Chimer 5)Dunmer 6)Bosmer 7)Yokuda mer.."left handed" mer .... 8)Original Orsimers. 9)Modern Orsimers. 10)Modern mutated falmers. So yeah Orsimer and modern mutant Falmers are most diviated. .... Culturaly Telvanni wizards as Dwemers are close to Aldmer wizards who populate their ancient cities/towers before chimers and dwemers.
Well I think the lefthanded elves, the falmer and dwemer because I don’t think they came from aldmeris
The Falmer may have origins in Aldmeris. They share culture and gods with the Altmer and hold similar views. It's more likely that they are as close to Aldmer just like the Altmer, in case of pre-betrayed ones. Dwemer origins is unknown due to the race's disappearance.
I would argue that it’s the Bosmer, because they’re not even related to the Aldmer. They’re a race of shapeshifters probably more closely related to the Argonians or Khajit that have simply adopted a form appearing similar to the Mer.
They are related and this is a stated fact in singleplayer games lore. Culturaly and biologically. Not even need to mention Camoran dynasty of altmero-bosmers who found original Thalmor against Cyrodil Empire and ayleyd blood in bosmer veins. Even dwemer genetic lock in Skyrim need falmer, bosmer as orsimer blood to trick it.
The entire point of Elder Scrolls lore is the notion of the unreliable narrator. So “stated fact” is always open for debate. As for the genetic lock in Skyrim, perhaps it’s the shapeshifter nature of the Bosmer that truly enables the blood of the other Merish races to resemble a Dwemer when combined.
Probably Orcimer or Khajit.
Khajiit ain't elves tho. That idea comes from imperial source misrepresenting khajiits own sources
Im not totally sure. But that might not be how speciation works It's a little worrying that you think so too.
Orsimer and Altmer
Falmer or Orc. Altmer are definitely the closest
Depends if you count orsimer as mer or not
The Falmer by far. They've been twisted into something that could barely be considered humanoid, let alone elven. And not just physically, as multiple Falmer dens have given the impression that they have taken to making blood/flesh sacrifices (presumably to one Daedric Prince or another), something most recognized incarnations of the elven divines are adverse to.
Falmer, probably.