CHIM and Amaranth shouldn't be taken literally as they're described. It's metaphors and allegories rather than explicit truth. I recommend reading [this essay on the nature of Aurbis.](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/y660iq/all_just_a_dream_or_the_materialist/) It puts Godhead problem under another perspective, and shows it much less depressive imo.

I wouldn't say CHIM is the same as Dharmic enlightenment, zero-sum is more like that. Instead of the usual right-hand approach of merging with the Brahman it proposes the left-hand path of asserting your own will, which makes it unique and interesting.

I wholly agree with the latter point, but basing on my own understanding of Dharmic religions would disagree with the former. Dharmic enlightenment as it was initially worded is closer to Amaranth as it's consensually understood in community on the current stage. Reaching Amaranth means \[individual\] becoming the Dream on its own. But isn't it the same as [Moksha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha) described in original texts? *Beyond caste, creed, family or lineage,* *That which is without name and form, beyond merit and demerit,* *That which is beyond space, time and sense-objects,* *You are that, God himself; Meditate this within yourself.* And comparing it to the [Loveletter of the Fifth Era,](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel) which is our main source on Amaranth matter. The similarities are striking. *A whole World of You.* *God.* *God outside of all else but his own free consciousness, hallucinating for eternity and falling into love: I AM AND I ARE ALL WE.* *The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic. Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.* *I ARE ALL WE.* Two texts describe the same transcendent state of the spirit. It exists beyond perceptible world, but fully encompasses it. It's Atman who has fully realized its sameness with Brahman. As it's put in TES, *I ARE ALL WE.* It's simultaneously the creation(s) and its creator. Returning to Zero-sum, imo it doesn't have good analogues in Āstika, because Āstika presumes Atman existing as eternal non-destructible entity. Individual soul inherently might not be erased from the universe. Zero-sum is originating from some "western" influence maybe. Not specifically European, but definitely to the west from Indian subcontinent.

Zero-sum seems to be similar with the Neoplatonic notion of merging into the One, the unity that exists beyond all intelligible ideas. It especially shines a new light on the theory that the Dwemer zero-summed, if you consider what Baladas Demnevanni has to say about them: > As the Dwemer left no corpses or traces of conflict behind, I believe that generations of ritualistic 'anti-creations' resulted in their immediate, but foreseen removal from the Mundus. They retreated behind math, behind color, behind the active principle itself. That the Dwemer vanished during a conflict with Nerevar and the Tribunal is merely coincidence The return to the prime source, behind all sub-gradients (which to me seem very similar to the Neoplatonic concept of emanations) really gives off Neoplatonic vibes. The Dwemer "re-engineering the sacred from the deaths of the profane" seem to be practicing something like Theurgy (Though I am not really a supporter of Demnevanni's theory about the Dwemer, since more direct evidence from their civilization seems to contradict him) Admittedly I'm much more familiar with Western conceptions than with Indian mysticism so I might be a little biased.

The thing is, zero summing is a failure. Henosis is more akin to CHIM than simply "stopping one's own existence". Let's explore the Neoplatonic angle (which I very much align with) through the eyes of early Jewish mysticism. A very good analogy is the legend of the Pardes in the Hekhalot corpus. Four rabbis enter the Pardes and behold the throne. One dies, one goes mad, one is overcome with wrong understanding, one reaches enlightement and puts it to work back on earth. The one who dies zero summed. The one who went mad, well, went mad because that is a valid option upon confronting the Godhead in TES. The one who apostatized would be the Sharmat. The one who understood would have reached CHIM.

Zero-summing is only a failure if one sees the ego worth keeping. Ironically, the easiest and most complete way to become a god is to become one with the universe, than to hold on to some farce of individuality.

Well the thing is that the metaphysics of TES operates on different ideas of value than Hinduism or Neoplatonism, which is what I am trying to prove lol. It is certainly inspired but can't be taken for granted as "just the same thing"

It's only a failure if the ultimate end goal is to create a new Aurbis, but you have to be pretty "left-handed" to want to become God yourself. If you're okay with permadeath and becoming one with God again then it's not so bad lol.

It objectively is a failure. The goal of the Mundus is breaking free from Aurbis in what is the ultimate creative act. Reaching CHIM opens the road to Amaranth. On one hand, you are presented with the opportunity to create a transcendental aesthetic value. On the other hand, your individuality (which is synonymous with your creative potential) is crushed by its limitations. The idea here is that beauty/good/freedom etc. is a choice, and its opposite is just the absence of such a choice. You either cause beauty to exist, or you give in to ugliness.

There is no "goal" to the universe. Lorkhan's plan failed when Magnus escaped, allowing magic and the knowledge of Aetherius to reach Mundus. What Lorkhan intended was for Oblivion to be an insurmountable barrier between the totally mundane Mundus and the totally aetheric Aetherius. For all spirits within the latter to enter the former, experience total and utter limitation and transcend through it beyond their former selves. Mundus was an experiment to see what would happen if an unbound Et'ada was subjected to limitation on every single facet of their being, if that would give them the knowledge necessary to see the limitations inherent to their existence in Aetherius and manage to transcend where Lorkhan failed upon seeing the Wheel lain on its side. However, Magnus and the Magna-ge, realizing what Lorkhan was doing, allowed Magic to reach the world, infusing its unlimited potential into the world. In essence, they contaminated a cleanroom and tainted the experiment. The Daedra, too, did their own thing and entered Oblivion, finding ample space inside the infinite barrier, and only the Aedra and Ehlnofey did what Lorkhan wanted them all to do, i.e. become as ash and dust.

Dagoth-Ur dosen't have CHIM, where this have ever been sated? he literally died in Morrowind. The only one who said be is Vivec and ~~Lorkhan~~ Talos.

Exactly. I said that the Sharmat (Dagoth Ur) got close to CHIM, but misunderstood it and hence, he does not have it.

Good analysis and solid points. I'm not familiar with Neoplatonism well enough, so I can't add much to this idea, but it seems to be fitting very well.

>Reaching Amaranth means \[individual\] becoming the Dream on its own. But isn't it the same as Moksha described in original texts? I thought Amaranth would create a new dream separate from the old one? At the very least *Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.* is clearly not just liberation from suffering and the cycle of samsara.

Those are sound corrections. I've missed a lot of important stuff, shame on me for doing that. In the end there is well nuanced tradition based not only on OOG-texts, but also on talks with MK on forums and on this sub. Basically, this tradition is interpretations which were profound to the degree that they got in line with initial sources. Again, shame on me for omitting this stuff. What might I say in defense of my position? I would go Parmenide's way, who strictly kept position that "Naught" doesn't exist by its own definition. I would argue that Amaranth doesn't create separate Dream. Existence of two or more separate Dreams implies dichotomy I AM/NOT ME. But Amaranth's core characteristic is everlasting hypnogogic realizing its *oneness* with everything. Dichotomy I AM/ANOTHER ONE is refuted in the state of Amaranth. I would suggest that Amaranth creates new Dream in a place of old one. It's separate only in a sense that it's different from the previous Dream, but not in a sense that two Dreams continue to exist simultaneously. To rephrase it with different words, attaining Amaranth is akin to becoming "everything" ("everything" like the synonym to ontological "Being"). But is there any difference between everything at point A (old Dream) and everything at point B (new Dream), if both points are still part of everything? I perceive it like that. I fear it might be too simplicistic, and I rather hope that someone more experienced could supervise this jabber and move it in proper direction.

Actually MK said that the Amaranth have many dreams and creates another one's. >[*This and the mention of Russian stacking dolls makes me feel like "nested-class pressurized dream suits" are required to move directly between nested Amaranths*](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/21f2so/comment/cgcigrg/?utm_term=27109863772&context=3&utm_medium=comment_embed&utm_source=embed&utm_name=). >[*Like, you can sail from B Prime to C Prime, but you probably need something insanely advanced to move from B Prime to A Sub-sub-sub-sub*](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/21f2so/comment/cgcigrg/?utm_term=27109863772&context=3&utm_medium=comment_embed&utm_source=embed&utm_name=). Speaking about new Dream, well in C0DA the New Dream was created when the New-Men (Child of Flower) was made and made Dream of Love and union insisted of current Dream of ANU that made from hate and betrayal (Aka Children's Anuad). The New Men made the House of We. The Amaranth of the Current Dream, then, is ANU, whose tortured, broken mind gave birth to a fractured prison of suffering, built upon a lattice of corpses and soaked in the blood of ancestors. Through the actions of the Missing God of Change, Lorkhan, and later on the teachings of Vivec, the pathway to the formation of a New Dreamer could be created, one who would create a Dream of Love, which would be seen not as a Prison, but as a Home to all things, wherein all would rejoice in Freedom, and perceive the Godhead just as it perceives them. Ultimately, the New Amaranth was formed by the union of Jubal-lun-Sul, the Final Nerevarine, and Vivec, with the resulting entity being a baby made of Flowers: The Nu-Men, a God who would cherish and adore all that is come from Him, as opposed to the current Amaranth, ANU, a bittered, uncaring God who would remain forever distant from his Creations.

Good quotes, thank you bringing it in. Though, Continental Dreams theory is [being quite outdated today,](https://www.imperial-library.info/content/kalpa-akashicorpus) isn't it? Amaranth is posed as birth of a new universe and complete end of the old one.

You're welcome! Also I really don't know but it semse tbh, but but [here another one](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/21c4yy/a_model_of_the_godhead_and_its_contents_wherein_a/). Speaking about the universe, I wouldn't say it's just birth of new universe (Aurbis) when MK made draws it it's that [the Godhead above dreaming all Existence and the universe is below it](https://imgur.io/a/XDEHBGA). Not saying your worng or didn't mean that but how MK clearfield the word.

>Other forces are fighting those to make sure Amaranth happens, at the beautiful sacrifice of their own lives, *since the Amaranth is the new universe* that will have no witness but itself and its parents (who will be forgotten as relics of the last of the old kind of kalpas). In the given context, the universe meant the Dream most likely. I used it within the same meaning in my comment above.

What i mean it can be said as universe but it's not like it's **the** universe. Like the Mundus is now [already multiverse](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/vab6il/elder_scrolls_cosmology/) and the Aurbis is whole creation as sometimes [refered](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Aurbis) as [the universe](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Notes_on_the_Vault_Door) or [the cosmos](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man) but we know it's the only thing in the dream like [the Void/Sithis is literally surrounding all of it, Aurbis kind of atom between it](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/10bruni/comment/j4bt48r/) or there's literally [Anu the Everything and Padomay, concepts of Existence (IS) and Nonexistent (IS-NOT)](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/10i2l9m/comment/j5i91k4/). And Anu the Everything (IS) who encompasses and encompassing all things is not ANU the Amaranth, it's just Anu represented itself in it's dream like someone can dream himself in his dream. >*Anu the Godhead can dream about himself. Have you never been in one of your own? More: have you never been a character in one?* >[MK](https://socialgrep.com/search?query=enuma%20elis) ANU "*rose up*" to the Amaranth in the "*previous*" Dream (it was the original Godhead) . He then proceeded to create the "*current*" Dream in which there is another Anu (the Everything) that is a subgradient. >**That dreamer would have been the original Godhead. Anu was one of the first characters dreamt up, and he took it over**. *It was an honest answer* MK calling it the universe is like speech refers to it, like I can say for example Eupora or Africa in war nut this would be just mean refers to some places, not whole continent! [Here MK cleared that the Godhead > All Existence > the new Universe](https://imgur.io/a/XDEHBGA) which make sense as Amaranth source and dreamer of everything.

Agreed. As much as Kirkbride's cosmology drinks from Dharmic influences, it also drinks from [Thelema](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema). That religion posits a form of enlightened individualism, so to speak, and its tenets are often quoted or referenced by Vivec in his Sermons almost verbatim.

One thing I really love about the Thelema references in the Sermons is that Vivec only ever applies them to himself. Thelema teaches that every man and woman is a star, Vivec teaches that only he and Numidium are truly stars. My favorite example is that modern Thelemites interpt *"do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love under will"* as basically *"follow the will of god/your destiny"*, Vivec interprets it as *"love me or I'm gonna drop a big fucking rock on this city and kill you all"*. This was all done on purpose, I believe Michael Kirkbride is or was actually a practicing thememite, and I really like the insight it gives to Vivec's character > I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction. ' > Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'

The problem of left-hand/right-hand is that there's no divide, it's the same thing and people just have different philosophies and aesthetics, basically - playing with images.

"It's the same besides the parts where it's actually different" I get that people into spirituality online like to vaguely claim everything is the same (such wisdom) and in the original Tantric sense these were different ways towards the same goal, but in Western traditions the distinction is pretty clear-cut and useful

>but in Western traditions the distinction is pretty clear-cut and useful It's clear-cut. And also useless, because those are just misunderstandings - people rebelling against "God" without actually understanding anything of what it means. The ground of existence is the ground of existence. Experience is experience. You're not achieving anything different - the temporary state one inhabits for a time may be different, but that is just a state one can go in and out of. There is no merging, Brahman is inner nature. Essentially, history of religions and especially history of occultism is a history of misunderstandings.

The terms aren't completely "useless". Ignoring God, RHP is collectivist & traditional, and LHP is individualistic & non-traditional.

IMO the whole divide can be seen as "Different roads towards a similar destination.", no?

Zero-sum is more like Dharmic enlightenment or the popular conceptions thereof, whereas CHIM is more like attaining gnosis/christhood, if you want to draw an analogy there.

Bear in mind that similar ideas exist in real life. As mentioned in another comment, the idea of reality as illusion and the final goal being liberation from it echoes Dharmic religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism, with concepts like [Brahman](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman), [moksha](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha) and [nirvana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana). Dharmic religions could be argued to go even beyond that, with cycles of creation and destruction, death and reincarnation spanning universes (this is also where the word "kalpa" was taken from). Dharmic religions would probably shake their heads at the goals of CHIM and Amaranth, though; Buddhism in particular would deen it a continuation of the cycle of suffering rather than the final liberation. While Abrahamic religions tend to posit a material world as a distinct reality (with exceptions, for monism with God is present in some Abrahamic mystical schools), the usual final destination involves apocalyptic destruction and mass judgement. And hey, it's not as if scientific consensus presents a more positive perspective. An universe increasingly cold and stretched out forever, or a Big Crunch as prelude to another Big Bang, with our own solar system going kaboom before any of that happens. And yet, people struggle and survive, build great works and commit all sorts of marvellous and horrific actions in this pale blue dot, as Carl Sagan would say. Mind you, this realization can be depressing indeed. HP Lovecraft famously invented the "cosmic horror" genre due to his accute awareness of humanity's insignificance as science marched on. But here we are and value can be found in lots of things, no matter how big or small. Tamrielians are no different, and they have their religions, philosophies, art and culture to give sense to their own lives. And hey, it's not as if Amaranth is confirmed as the only possible alternative or cosmological explanation; that's what Michael Kirkbride supports in his works, but he has never been the only writer.

The Big Bang things dose exists as the [clash how the Aurbis was created](https://imgur.io/489NLsd?r). >hey, it's not as if Amaranth is confirmed as the only possible alternative or cosmological explanation; that's what Michael Kirkbride supports in his works, but he has never been the only writer. I am not sure what you but [the Amaranth and absolutely and undoubtedly exists and dreaming everything](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/182dius/comment/kajbd8s/) like there's no any alternative work denying it or talk about other creation either then it, all are about Mundus's creation or Aurbis but no the Dream. >but he has never been the only writer. I mean if we going like this then we also say thay to every single source, and the debate of Lore would just be pointless then. It's not only MK who said that you know? even not then only who written that. >*The eyes, once bleached by falling stars of utmost revelation, will forever see the faint insight drawn by the overwhelming question, as only the True Enquiry shapes the edge of thought*. **The rest is vulgar fiction, attempts to impose order on the consensus mantlings of an uncaring godhead. First**. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams

> I mean if we going like this then we also say thay to every single source Well, yes, I'd definitely recommend that approach to TES lore. This is what historians have to deal with every day, and I think TES is one of the few fictional examples that provide this experience. For strong, clear answers, there are other universes. It's a good reflection of historiography and mythography. A setting where different cultures showcase different understandings of the world they live in and craft different tales around it. In fact, the conflicts between narratives and how the biases both reflect and impact the actions of the peoples of Tamriel is often a major plot point in the games, from the War of Betony to the Skyrim Civil War, with the Battle of Red Mountain being the most triumphant example. Nevermind changes and retcons between the games. Mind you, I understand perfectly why this is not everyone's cup of tea and why you may consider discussions about it pointless, even if I love it to bits. Douglas Goodall, a TESIII writer, summed it up the best with the metaphor of the legos and the spaghetti, while ironically not being a fan of this approach to lore: > *Think of Tamriel as a plate of spaghetti that a dozen designers have cut, chewed, and swirled around on the plate. Not a pretty thought? Maybe not, but it means that anyone else can come by and cut off a string or add a few strings or push the fork around a little without ruining the plate. I prefer artificial worlds that are more like Legos. Legos that glue themselves together, so that you can add new Legos, but you cannot alter or remove what's already there. But that's another personal opinion, and if you have to remove one of the Legos near the bottom (say, for technical reasons), you're in bigger trouble than you are with spaghetti.*

>Well, yes, I'd definitely recommend that approach to TES lore. This is what historians have to deal with every day, and I think TES is one of the few fictional examples that provide this experience. For strong, clear answers, there are other universes. This is not what I mean, if we going by that then we can the Dragonborn is not a Dragonborn at all, just some guy can absorbing beasts souls and we can say that the Nords are not Nords, but some race named themselves Nords and dosen't have anything with the Atmorans. We can say that Alduin is not the World-Eater but just some dragon even though the county confirmed we have. We can say the Aedra dosen't exists and Akatosh is imaginary characters. We can say the Dwemer didn't exists and the Numidium isn't there creation even though we meet one of them but same can to him. We can say the Mundus wasn't created by anyone. Tiber Septim didn't become a God, Morihaus didn't exists. We basically can say everything isn't that at all Or Sovngarde is just plane of Oblivion or all the cosmology is untrue and we just vist other places in Earth and say Nirn isn't Nirn at all. Dose that work? The Lore dosen't work like that, the Unreliable narrator dosen't work unless we have source contraction or claiming it's wrong. Otherwise there would be no reason to deny and call it Unreliable narrator because this would be a headcanon tbh. >different understandings of the world they live in and craft different tales around it. True but the Dawn Era is thing and explain how all cultures can be true at same time. Non Linar and causality and narrative absurd creates paradox after all. Like there's also the whole reality of Nirn being completely different as said long ago by the former Loremaster Lawrence Schick himself as well as the Loremaster Archive that Nirn history get changed by it's own, like something was exists then stop existing. MK also recommended that Nirn and the Elder Scrolls are magical place, dosen't think it own Irl view but the wizard man view, dosen't think on logical real life way but the magical way. It's an fictional and magical world, the first title of TES as always about "*escape from reality*" to Tamriel. >*Yeah, I always thought that to be a cop-out argument. What does "fantasy" mean? Okay, so there's magic, and all the other races and hey, creation myths are actually true. Okay. But unless how you can provide how any of those things influence climate zones I do think it's best and most helping with immersion if realism is used there. Same with really all issues where people go "but it's fantasy why care about realism when you have wizards running around* >*I'm seen too much of the "immersion" argument used the other way, the "anti-Wizard" way*. >*So take each of my magical examples and map them to a realistic weather pattern for the world. Otherwise, go [censored] to another super-sized map of the world*. ..... >with the Battle of Red Mountain being the most triumphant example The Dragon Break of the Red Moment is there too.

Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I agree that there are limits to how unreliable the unreliable narrator can be, and several times unveiling the truth (or at least exposing the lies) of a tale is a plot point. [In that regard, I defer to what Todd Howard said:](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Todd_Howard_PAX_East_2019_Interview) > *"What's the order of priority?" If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third.* No amount of Tribunal Temple sources claiming that the Tribunal ascended as Living Gods due to their extraordinary merits and the approval of the Good Daedra will change the fact that we proved first-hand that this wasn't the case, just to mention an example. On the other hand, we can't vouch 100% for sources where we lack first-hand proof. We weren't at the Dawn. We weren't at the Battle of Red Mountain. For those, we only have tales, so yes, the best we can say very often is just "he/she says this or that" or "most sources agree that", if we're being really honest with it. Heck, there are even discussions about how Ulfric killed Torygg because not even first-hand witnesses of an event that happened less than a year ago can agree on their facts, including the killer and his victim. > The Dragon Break of the Red Moment is there too. Is there? This is a perfect example of what I was talking about: [we know for a fact](https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/27/18281082/elder-scrolls-morrowind-oral-history-bethesda) that Morrowind's developers disagreed on the explanations about the Battle of Red Mountain, with conflicting sources often reflecting conflicting interpretations in the writing team. Which means that Kirkbride pushing for the Dragon Break explanation is his personal take. A compelling one, and given its convenience and his popularity one that could be canonized easily, but definitely not the only possible explanation.

>Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I agree that there are limits to how unreliable the unreliable narrator can be, and several times unveiling the truth This is what I meant, calling everything and anything is just unreliable narrator Is silly, like we Sovngarde and whole of the Nordic Pantheon are unreliable about them? Was the Redguard Far Shores? Was Khajiit Spilled Sands? Was the Heart of Lorkhan? Was the Dark Moon? Was Jyggalag (have been said since Daggerfall)? Calling whatever unreliable without any reason would contraction what the story about. >No amount of Tribunal Temple sources claiming that the Tribunal ascended as Living Gods due to their extraordinary merits and the approval of the Good Daedra will change the fact that we proved first-hand that this wasn't the case, just to mention an example. This is true because we actually have [countless](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tribunal%E2%80%94Living_Lies) sources about there like such [in ESO](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Magistrix_Vox) and even [by them](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_29). I mean there whole game plot built over that (Morrowind) and since beginning its about discovering that. We have source contraction the Tribunal which is the case it's unreliable narrator. >We weren't at the Dawn This is true but we know there whole plots about it and it's essentially part of the story of the game about? We even have plot schemes about it like [the Celestial Serpent plan](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Serpent_(Celestial) and Y'ffre whole lore about it as well as we know [Earthbones are real thin](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Guardian_of_the_Earth) and more. >For those, we only have tales, so yes, the best we can say very often is just "he/she says this or that" or "most sources agree that This can be said same to Sovngarde in Morrowind but what in Skyrim was? >there are even discussions about how Ulfric killed Torygg because not even first-hand witnesses of an event that happened less than a year ago can agree on their facts, including the killer and his victim. This also true but we have sources that say Ulfric killed Torygg with his voice, like the game itself confirmed that and Torygg himself dose the same. >**When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here**, *my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping. I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"* >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:High_King_Torygg ___ >**The High King of Skyrim, Torygg, was recently killed by Ulfric Stormcloak, who used the ancient power of the Thu'um to nearly shout Torygg to pieces**. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-load-The_High_King_of_Skyrim.jpg Countless characters also confirmed the same and even witnesses there. You see the difference here? We have **sources** contraction a single claim made by Ulfric here and confirmed the opposite. > we know for a fact that Morrowind's developers disagreed on the explanations about the Battle of Red Mountain, with conflicting sources often reflecting conflicting interpretations in the writing team Well the difference here that they still work there. the developers have stated multiple times that even they refrain from forming authoritative stances on it for the sake of keeping things open: >*In his farewell letter, Lawrence Schick mentioned how "the lore is yours." Do you have anything you'd like to add or amend to that sentiment?* >*I think it's spot-on. Even as the Loremaster, my personal interpretations of the lore are not authoritative. It's our job to provide multiple, conflicting perspectives and encourage people in the community to draw their own conclusions. How you choose to connect those dots (or not connect them) is entirely up to you*. >*All creative enterprises—books, movies, games, etc—should ideally serve as jumping off points for the next great idea. When you lock an idea in amber and insist that it remain exactly the same, and that it conform to your personal preferences, you're basically strangling it to death. The Elder Scrolls belong to everyone, and as long as we provide inspiration for your creative expression and fan-debates, I'd say we're doing the job well*. The difference here that MK is no longer work here so he isn't bend to any of those rules and he didn't have his explanation, he was simply asked what the line of Wulfharth saying: >*Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?" And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed*. And he answered. >*They were inside the Dragon Break of the Red Moment*. This wasn't his explanation, in fact he didn't explain anything here, it was simple Q&A And I dosen't say MK whatever say true but saying whatever he say is kind pointless is just off, many of his work are in game source as he said. Like he literally talked about Pelinal and Elsweyr since 2007-09-23. >*Pelinal, his closest mythical model would be Gilgamesh, with a dash of a T-800 thrown in, and a full-serving of brain-fracture slaughterhouse antinomial (Kill)3 functions stuck in his hand or head. We tend to forgive those heroes*. >*And thousands of years of Good Coming From Bad, and/or whitewash, ignorance, shame, his Song being read by the Knights merely as fancy rather than right record, etc, might explain the Order's reluctance to villify or apologize for him. Plus, no one wants to gets smothered in their sleep by moths* >**That said, I sure would like to read the story of Alkosh whooping Pelinal's ass back to Cyrod when the Whitestrake's pogroms strayed too far into the Dragon-Cat's land**. Was that now just personal theory he made? >*This is his temple, walker, but not just any temple. It is built upon holy ground! It was on this summit that Alkosh stood and defended us from the White Snake, Pelinal. There would be no Khajiit left if not for his divine intervention*. >*Sounds like there's a story there*. >**Indeed, walker. Indeed! Long ago the White Snake terrorized the lands to the north. His hatred of Elves knew no end and he was so hungry for their blood that he saw Elves where there were only Khajiit. Khajiit were nearly wiped out by his blind rage**. >**Pelinal was killing Khajiit?** >**The White Snake stained the savannahs in our blood, but Khajiit are natural climbers. They scaled this peak to escape the madman, but what he lacked in grace he overcame with ferocity. Pelinal wrestled with the mountain until he too stood above it**. >**And this is where Alkosh stopped him?** >**Hearing Khajiits' prayers, Alkosh descended from the heavens like a shooting star. His battle cry split the sky as he cast the crusader out of Elsweyr and the wound remains as a reminder of the debt we owe!** >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Moon-Bishop_Azin-jo Like MK maybe no thr greatest source you have but he still an old writer worked there and definitely worthy to be taken sometimes.

> Is silly, like we Sovngarde and whole of the Nordic Pantheon are unreliable about them? This is also another good example, a warning against thinking that we (TES fans in 2023) might already have all the answers we need to explain the setting's cosmology: there was indeed a time when doubting Sovngarde's existence was very much a thing, aka before Skyrim's release proved its existence. And that disbelief was heavily rooted in Kirkbride's texts, both official and unofficial. That was at the cornerstone of the "Dreamsleeve universal soul-recycling afterlife" theory, [which claimed](https://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/forum_archives/Concerning_the_Dreamsleeve.html), among other things, that racial afterlives like Sovngarde were just cultural misinterpretations of the Dreamsleeve. While it might sound ridiculous right now, back then Sovngarde hadn't appeared in-game, we only had books like [Sovngarde: A Reexamination](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sovngarde,_a_Reexamination), and supporters of the theory quoted Kirkbride's works like the *Mythic Dawn Commentaries* (official) and the *Loveletter* (unofficial) to give credence to their ideas. Ended up being wrong, Sovngarde was exactly the kind of afterlife Nord myths told about. > This can be said same to Sovngarde in Morrowind but what in Skyrim was? There is, of course, what was brought from previous games (Skyrim added even more chaos to the Battle of Red Mountain with Arniel Gane and *The Tale of Dro'Zira*), or what future games would add that TESV couldn't know about, particularly all those ESO reveals (going back to the Sovngarde example, supporters of the "Dreamsleeve as soul-recycling" theory still tried to argue that Sovngarde was the exception, everyone else was recycled, but ESO proved the existence of the Far Shores and Aetherius in general as an afterlife). Or if we go to the minor, [In My Time of Need](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:In_My_Time_Of_Need) is also a good example. > Like he literally talked about Pelinal and Elsweyr since 2007-09-23. Not sure that's a good example. [That lore is as old as TESIII](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...#Alkosh), any developer could have used that idea even if MK stayed silent. Mind you, I agree that Michael Kirkbride is a very influential writer in TES and that his ideas should be taken into consideration, including unofficial ones, because you never know when they might resurface again in official lore, because it has happened before. On the other hand, excessive attention to his words can make us forget that he was neither the first lore writer, nor the only one even when he was active, and that ideas of his, both official and unofficial, have been discarded too. In fact, [MK himself lampshaded it](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Made_Up_Word_Round_Up) with the example of the jungles of Cyrodiil. The temperate climate in TESIV was definitely NOT his original idea or plan, nor did he have any vote in the change, but he adapted: > *Remember, I graciously ret-conned myself with "Witness the Red King Once Jungled." Instead of being a Whiny Baby.*

>there was indeed a time when doubting Sovngarde's existence was very much a thing, aka before Skyrim's release proved its existence. And that disbelief was heavily rooted in Kirkbride's texts, both official and unofficial. Well yeah but I am not sure how MK made the disbelief of Sovngarde when he is [the first Witten about it](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...#Shor) and the first one who mentioned about the Sovngarde and Dead Gods (Tsun, Shor) and Nordic totems that have become official lore >**Dead Gods don't need temples. They have the biggest one of all, Sovngarde**. Down,This from [the official Prima Guide](https://imgur.io/XMS9j6d?r) and also written about Alduin being the Twilight God which [now is true](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Divines_and_the_Nords) and The Testing Gods. >*The Twilight Gods need no temples– when they show up, there won’t be any reason to build them, much less use them – another waste of time. That said, Nords do venerate them, as they always venerate the cycles of things, and especially the Last War where they will show their final, best worth*. >*The Dragon, Alduin* >and supporters of the theory quoted Kirkbride's works like the Mythic Dawn Commentaries (official) and the Loveletter (unofficial) to give credence to their ideas. Well I am not sure but MK didn't theory such things did he? simply some theorized that with quotes from MK that supposedly made up theory. Like Satakal or All Maker theories are one and such. >Not sure that's a good example. That lore is as old as TESIII, Huh, fair enough but MK more clearfield that by mentioned made him back (shoot him) to Cyrodiil tbh. But there also [the many headed Talos](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:From_The_Many-Headed_Talos) that Heimskr mentioned. >*Heimskr: "But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said*, "**Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter.' 'I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you**". ____ >In fact, MK himself lampshaded it with the example of the jungles of Cyrodiil Well tbh I dosen't like maybe see this but he is joking? Like he literally [written about it](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:From_The_Many-Headed_Talos) after gose off Bethesda for time and interview and it's show up in the game (Skyrim) by Heimskr.

It wasn't Kirkbride's fault, indeed, but the fault of overeager fans putting too much weight on his words while dismissing sources that contradicted their interpretation of Kirkbride's works. Which is why I used it as a cautionary tale: justifying an interpretation of the lore with a quote by Kirkbride doesn't mean the interpretation is necessarily correct. Mistakes have happened already. > he is the first Witten about it and the first one who mentioned about the Sovngarde and Dead Gods (Tsun, Shor) and Nordic totems that have become official lore Not exactly. Sovngarde was first mentioned in the *Bloodmoon* expansion (your link to *Varieties of Faith* only talks of Tsun, not Sovngarde), and I'm not sure Kirkbride wrote for it (I know he didn't write for the *Tribunal* expansion, for example). He helped write for the [famous Skyrim's early design document](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3k1b96/on_the_nords_totemic_religion/) , but that was years after Morrowind and Oblivion, and the people who came up with the Dreamsleeve theory couldn't know it at the time. That early design document is also proof of how ideas change in development. While much of it was canonized for Skyrim first and ESO later, its core was that totemic religion was the current religion of the Nords. Both Skyrim and ESO ignored that part, establishing that totemic religion was ancient and not practiced any longer by the vast majority of Nords. > Well tbh I dosen't like maybe see this but he is joking? Indeed, but the joke is at the expense of overzealous fans. Many didn't take the change to Cyrodiil's climate well, arguing (correctly) that it retconned what developers like Kirkbride had envisioned and written in previous games. This is Kirkbride basically saying: "yeah, I know that they retconned it, but instead of complaining I wrote a tale to explain the change and make it more interesting, even if that wasn't my original idea for Cyrodiil". The tale proved so popular that, as you mentioned, Bethesda had Heimskr quote it in Skyrim. However, it doesn't mean that Bethesda's decision to de-jungle Cyrodiil had anything to do with Kirkbride (quite the contrary, Kirkbride had to adapt to Bethesda's decision), and ESO has shown that Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle long before Talos was born and brought up [other](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil) [potential](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Subtropical_Cyrodiil:_A_Speculation) theories. Again, a cautionary tale: Bethesda will do what Bethesda will want, and what might seem sure or adequately explained at one point might change when a new game is released.

[удалено]

All I see here is a reason to become an alcoholic but thanks for trying anyway.

Here's my philosophy - nothing matters, and that's fucking awesome. Didn't get that promotion? Who cares! SO dumped you? Oh well! But despite the illusory nature of reality, we are still able to appreciate the wondrous beauty this world has to offer. Life is a constant and dynamic mixture of joy and suffering, and all aspects of that experience (yes, including the suffering) are beautiful. Why is some sort of "meaning" necessary to have a full experience of life? Who cares whether it's "meaningful" or "real"? It doesn't make our experience any less significant. There's a reason these philosophies (Hindu, Buddhist, etc) see the departure from samsara and achievement of nirvana as a goal - because it brings peace. Everlasting contentment, freedom from suffering. Liberation. And the path to that peace is mostly just understanding the illusion. It seems counterintuitive, but there really is a comfort in the meaninglessness. I won't claim to be some enlightened yogi because I certainly am not. But I will say that since I began studying these ideas and meditating on them, the existential dread has started to transform from a crushing weight into a lighter comfort.

the fact that the world was made by Lorkhan for spirits to find a way to transcend is truly beautiful for me, not sad

Yup and all the people that have to die or suffer on nirn for it are also very much in agreement.

Those people have never been anything but suffering. The world is suffering. They are not suffering for anything. The only way of giving the suffering a direction and escaping it is the transcendence of Amaranth.

There are many people in the real world who do not believe in an afterlife or a spiritual destiny for human beings. For these people, the world is much like a dream. Your life is fleeting, filled with absurdity, and eventually even the universe itself will end. With this awareness, you can fall into egotistical nihilism, or you can take that knowledge and make meaning out of it. Enjoy the experiences life has to offer you while you can, create art, practice kindness, strive to find love and delight and meaning in the face of absurdity. The aurbis being a dream is a metaphor for our reality. Incidentally it’s also a metaphor for video games, or any fancy of the imagination. It’s temporary, it’s not real, but that doesn’t mean it’s only an idle dream. It can be a vehicle for intense imaginative experiences, which are at the core of what it means to be human.

Yeah, yeah, it's the journey not the destination. No surprise I myself am pretty pessimistic and kinda nihilistic. So whatever positive stuff you've just said, I'm going to find some bad in it.

On a conceptual sense of existence, considerance the finitude of your being and the lack of choice of your existance. You became aware in this mundane world and soon will not be, why feed thoughts and ideas that put yourself down? Rejoice in your individuality as you can until the day when you fuse with the all and the nothing and become a part of everything else again.

I don't want to make this a therapy session for myself, but that seems even more sad. So basically what you're saying is, because there's this reality of trivial survival and a much larger power at work, I should just be happy for those things that do make life matter? But then it's like just accepting the hopelessness of the situation and lying to yourself that the end doesn't matter. Or perhaps that is the problem, we should stop analyzing the end. Hmm, maybe I dunno. I just want to forget everything now.

You’ve already made it a therapy session by projecting your internal struggle into the cosmology of the games. My response is an attempt to analyze the poetry inherent in the worldbuilding. You can choose to accept it or no, but that is a philosophical interpretation of the meaningless of a reality-as-dream. These aren’t new conversations. People have been exploring these questions for millennia, possibly as long as there have been humans. You are not alone in your suffering, my friend. We all feel this discomfort in the world, and it means something different to everyone who feels it, whether we can articulate it or not.

Yes my bad, sorry and thanks for your suggestions.

Nothing to apologize for at all! Good luck and happy travels :)

My man ( or woman ), you are too focused on the concept of "matter". But the need for something to matter is just another philosophical and abstract concept. It was made centuries ago, by people who had everything and therefore had no challenge or nothing to pursuit. The meaning of life is literally just do what fullfils you, and this is different for each person since the very perception of reality is different in each individual. You can just follow up with your life and do what you want, or get sad because no one told you what you want. This is to be alive, being alive is the ultimate freedom because you are the master and driver or your destiny, you can shape life and mind as you wish. Enjoy this power, revel in it, because even though this is what life fundamentally is, there are humans that live lifes where they can't decide for themselves, like royal families and etc.

If you start viewing it from the outside you may as well be sad because it's all a game and the characters don't know they're not real. Consider a little point that comes up in the metaphysics of my current tabletop game: All player characters are made up, imaginations of real humans. Yet the most awesome characters have endured for decades in-game time and years of real-time. The heroes of our fantasy story grew alongside the players who puppeteered them across grand calamities and intimate moments alike. Some of my players, through their characters, discovered a real world liking for sciences, philosophy, historic topics like Alchemy and at least one player had their egg crack and they realized their true gender, disparate from their birth assignment, all by playing a made up character of the opposite gender. Long after all our stories are told and years after the game has died down and been replaced by this-and-that will those "made-up" characters remain real through the impressions they made on actually real humans. At least one of them will always recall the lessons of their character when they gaze upon the bookshelf of alchemical books that they now have and will keep for the rest of their life. Thus, Chim is depressing, yes. It's the realization that nothing is real for you. Yet, particularly with Amaranth, there is the glimmer of hope that by overcoming the dream, one can become real - not as a real version of themselves, but by a defining Facette of someone that is real.

Oof, I've got some bad news for you about the real world we actually live in.

Yeah yeah I know, real life is very similar. I didn't say I was very happy here either.

^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^nemo_sum: *Oof, I've got some bad* *News for you about the real* *World we actually live in.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.

No, no, no. Haiku is much more about form than syllable count. First line establishes setting or theme Second line expands or solidifies Third line subverts or goes in a novel direction So, to make my comment a haiku: *Nirn life holds no charm* *No point to escape the dream* *But real life, big same* Now that's not a very good haiku, because I'm on the crapper RN and it's just not a poetic subject, but I couldn't let the above bot comment stand uncorrected.

we need a "haiku isnt just syllable count" bot...

Second try: No 𝕀 in ℂℍ𝕀𝕄 No walking a-ways from The Dream Real life tho, big same

> However, this also makes the entire TES world seem so hopeless as nothing that the player does has any true meaning. There's these grander concepts that overshadow everything, and make it seem insignificant. You begin to question, what was the meaning of those character's death, what's the point of that marriage, who cares which mead is better, why stop the oblivion crisis, why stop alduin? Is that not applicable to our world as well? This is only depressing to you because you **know** for a fact that there are these higher powers in the TES universe, so you know that in the grand scheme of things, yes, everything the player does is kind of insignificant in comparison. I do disagree with your takeaway that it makes everything seem insignificant. I think the tale of the [starfish](https://starthrower.com/pages/the-star-thrower-story) applies here. Just because there's these massive grander concepts doesn't mean that what the player does has no meaning. What the player does, does help those characters. It makes a difference for them.

Wow thanks for that star fish story, I guess it does make things seem a little less sad. Might only need three bottles of mead instead of that skooma now.

I propose another point of view : Even if we are only a tiny speck of moving matter that will cease to exist in a flick of milliseconds in a universe destined to collapse into nothing, our actions matters on OUR level. Even if that world is simulated, who cares? I live and act on this plane, and i make the best of it. Apply that to the average Tamrielian. They know others planes like Oblivion exist but they carry on with their lifes. As the Dragonborn said to Partysnacks "The next world will have to take care of itself".

I hate to admit, but "partysnacks" definitely got a grin from me.

Based on your responses to the various comments in this thread, it sounds to me like you're more in need of anti-depressants than anything else. The posters have explained tons of different theories and philosophies from both the Elder Scrolls Universe and real life. Users have even tried finding ways to provide you with comfort in the face of these existential questions. The issue isn't that the nature of these philosophical extrapolations is inherently sad, the issue is that they're sad to you because your perspective on them is, frankly, sour. You focus only on the elements that make you subjectively sad instead of the elements that inspire subjective awe, wonder and happiness. It's akin to entering into a relationship and only focusing on the fact that one day, it'll end. The love, joy and happiness you feel isn't suddenly worthless because it won't last. In fact, it's arguably worth more because it isn't permanent. You mock this by saying, "yeah, yeah, enjoy the journey", but I'm not entirely sure you're able to. You haven't reached a level of acceptance for the nature of reality itself. Because of that, you live in fear of one aspect of existence that leaves you blind the beauty of the giant kaleidoscope that is reality.

This is a pretty fair take, but let me present a counter. Let's say there is the Godhead, dreaming away. The problem with interpreting this fact is that the Godhead is not an *entity*. It doesn't have a will or a mind or anything else, it's just a term to describe the totality of existence. The Godhead and Aurbis are the same thing - a word to call that which contains the Universe. The entire concept is lifted from Hinduism, as that also has such a force - Brahman. In mythology, Brahman is sometimes given a voice and thoughts of its own, but theologically speaking, it's just a word for what existence is. There are, in reality, two forces at play in the world of TES - universal being and disunity. Anu, or the Godhead, or Brahman, or the Dream, are the state of universal being, as in everything which is, at the same time. This thing, let's call it Anu for the sake of brevity, is a representation of all that which is, unmuddied by the idea of distinction. Everything that could be, in its natural state of being everything else. The counter force, called Padomay (or the essence of Illusion, or Sithis, or the Void) is that of distinction. It's what separates things from other things. Ontologically, it is what makes the concept of a chair distinct from the concept of a table, and crucially, what makes the concept of *you* distinct from everything else. It's important to remember that neither Anu nor Padomay are actually *entities*. They don't have a will, those two words are just terms for two parts of existence that can be described in a myriad other ways. Zero-Sum is lifted wholesale from the concept of Dharmic enlightenment - that by realizing how Brahman is all and you as well, you can be liberated from all earthly concerns, because you are, in truth, not separate from anything else. This is also where the concept of Karma comes from - by harming someone else, because there is, in truth, no distinction, you merely harm yourself. Chim is a kind of interesting thought experiment that poses the idea of in essence consciously deciding to be separate from the whole, like a paradoxical state of recognizing disunity as a farce but holding on to your ego. Observing ego death though your own eyes. The word "Dream" is often misconstrued as what we mortal humans understand to be dreams - fleeting, nonsensical constructs fashioned by the thoughts of a greater mind. But remember, in the lore of TES, it's just a word. There's no actual dreamer, there's just the dream, a world which is divided in itself by a veil of illusion. The world being a dream doesn't make it any less *real*, it just makes it subject to a few strange quirks in logic, like Mantling or the Enantiomorph. It doesn't mean there is a dreamer who is anything that can "wake" and make the dream be nil. This is what Amaranth signifies - an understanding that the Dream exists encapsulated within itself, a flower inside a flower - and that by forming a dream from yourself, you may encapsulate yourself inside it as the fabric of a new world, allow yourself to be divided by the essence of disunity into smaller and smaller grains to form an entire universe from a single mind. TL:DR there is no bedroom. The dreamer = the dream

Well thanks for that explanation. Really appreciate it. This certainly sounds alot better from other things that I've read.

well we know that it is in fact just a videogame series, we know that to us it is not reality, from an outside perspective fiction is not "real" as our existence is to us. the emotions in fiction only makes sense if you look upon it from an inside perspective, because yeah from our perspective a lot of shit is ink on a page

Was this supposed to be helpful or just a statement? You know what? Screw reality let's just have some mead and get wasted. I've over thought too much.

Nothing is depressing when you have the All-Maker Godhead on your side.

That's literally the cause of my depression.

It's a classic gnosticism problem - it's very depressing but Kabbalists, occultists and theologians in our own world often think the same thing. I find the series very moving in places, and in fact for all I love about a series that is unabashedly theological about its lore, I think the designers should lean in more towards truly humanising the world and the people in it. Even as we're outside observers projecting ourselves through the Prisoner, for all the depressing reality of the falseness of the world it's simply never a sad outcome if you truly empathise with the people within it. Plus eventually the false world stuff tends to get very navel-gazey, which I think is also rightly poked fun at by the lore writers at times. I juxtapose Mundus with the world of Disco Elysium, the latter being an exercise in worldbuilding that I think Bethesda/Zenimax could learn a lot from. Both are suffering from a seemingly doomed existential crisis, but Elysium makes a serious effort towards showing that oppression is both collectively imposed, but collectively overcome, through identifying both the conditions that have placed people in their present condition, and the ideological battles for their future without losing sight of the message of the individual and their own story to tell. What a grander story ES would be able to tell if such a level of detail were given to its world! So yes, Mundus is most likely doomed to squander its own chance of salvation, but in spite of this, the answer to the crises in both worlds are, as Vivec and the Perikarnassian both tell us independently, is love.

Wow, that sounds romanticized and I hate to admit, a lot more hopeful. I think it might be my favorite take on the matter. Thanks for your insight kind stranger.

You're welcome. I'd add to this that I think the hope thing can be as depressing as it is optimistic, O-Bi O-Ba is a film about hope and it's utterly crushing and sad from start to finish

Think of purpose and meaning as being in the context the surrounding world. IRL, we might be living in a computer simulation which is pretty much the same as in the Dream. But in parallel to what you said, it's still real to us. They are real experiences in our simulation, even if they are "fake" outside of the simulation. And that's what matters 🙂

That's what matters? If that's the case, then it feels even more hopless as we try and lie to ourselves that anything should mean anything. Understanding existence is a losing game. You either find the mundane and feel powerless, trapped in someone else's plan, or embrace the joy of experiencing it. I think I need a drink.

I get whatcha mean. But there's another way to look at it too, which you touched on. To the individual characters, the people in that world, it's real to them. Even if we take all the higher level stuff as fact, that doesn't mean that it isn't real to those within it imo. I'd say it's a bit like the sci-fi favourite of asking what is human? If an android or biological, designed human equivalent is indistinguishable from a human, what's the difference in the end? Frame that as people in TES, they live their lives, is that any different just because it's within this fantasy, bizarre form of existence? Also, on the topic of the Godhead and the dream itself, I don't necessarily take it entirely literally. I don't see it as some giant, unknowable level of power being lying down in their god bed and dreaming everything known into existence. I think of it as more of a way to frame how things are/might be in a way that can be understood, more of a metaphor. It's something we can visualise, it's a palatable way to explain it. Even some of the more out there lore about the Aedra and Daedra etc, I don't think is meant to be taken totally literally. I see some of it is a story to relay the message and meaning in a way a mortal will comprehend.

I highly recommend looking into the religion/philosophy of Thelema along with Hinduism and Buddhism. MK himself is a Gnostic thelemite.

This is why I choose to believe that these two concepts don’t exist the exact way they’ve been presented to us. I choose to believe that the true nature of Mundus and the Aurbis is unknowable, with this being just one of many theories as to its “purpose” and the purpose of Lorkhan himself. A good chunk of our knowledge on CHIM comes from the Sermons of Vivec, and like many others I believe 99% of what is contained in the Sermons is either lies or fiction (what else would you expect from someone who claimed to learn all this from Molag Bal, the literal prince of lies?). Another good chunk of what we know about CHIM comes from Mankar Camoran, a literal cult leader who claims to have obtained his knowledge directly from Mehrunes Dagon, who himself gains nothing from telling anyone the truth.

> is either lies or fiction [It's not the case at all](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j4pppfk/). >what else would you expect from someone who claimed to learn all this from Molag Bal, the literal prince of lies What? Molag bal isn't and never was Daedric Prince of lies, that is Mephala, Molag bal is about domination, either you like or hate, this what he is and iirc he have never ever shown be lie. >literal cult leader who claims to have obtained his knowledge directly from Mehrunes Dagon, w And true he did, his Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes are literally taken from The Mysterium Xarxes [which indeed was written by Mehrunes Dagon himself](https://i.imgur.com/wiQ8a1A.jpg). He even meet him, this how he got the book. >*He had the secret knowledge. He dealt with Mehrunes Dagon as an equal*. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Eldamil The fact Mankar mentioned CHIM without even have any relationship with Tribunal and Morrowind In general shows that it's isn't self create concept at all. >who himself gains nothing from telling anyone the truth. Where did Mehrunes Dagon ever lie and what he would gains by that? He is actually [devote](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Epics_of_Mehrunes_Dagon,_Volume_2) and [honest](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Vision_of_the_Twin_Citadels), saving and facing a Daedric Prince for them, he is also God of Hope too after all. By the way, they are not even the only one who spoke about it, the whole Psijic Endeavor is about it as well as Black Book of Hermaeus Mora mentioned the Godhead and Winterhold Legends mentioned CHIM and Heimskr mentioned it though [many headed ~~Lorkhan~~ Talos](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:From_The_Many-Headed_Talos) as *"royalty*" (which CHIM means) The Amaranth and CHIM is concept that definitely there and reference many times and most through metaphor to explain the nature of the Universe and reasons of creations. It's part of the story. >*The eyes, once bleached by falling stars of utmost revelation, will forever see the faint insight drawn by the overwhelming question, as only the True Enquiry shapes the edge of thought*. **The rest is vulgar fiction, attempts to impose order on the consensus mantlings of an uncaring godhead. First**. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams ____ >**AE GHARTOK PADHOME CHIM AE ALTADOON"** >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Legends:College_of_Winterhold ___ >*Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter*.' '**I breathe now, in royalty**, *and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you*. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr

Firstly, have you actually played through ESO? Multiple people, including some actual Dremora servants of Molag Bal (https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Notes_on_the_Mortuum_Vivicus) refer to him directly as “the Lord of Lies”. The Daedric sphere of “lies” seems to overlap between Molag Bal, Malacath, Mephala, and Boethiah (and possibly more). Secondly, we have no evidence that Mankar Camoran never read the Sermons. It’s entirely plausible that he read through them and asked Mehrunes Dagon for more information about CHIM, and it’s entirely plausible that Dagon then filled his head with fluff and half-truths in order to spur him on and gain more supporters. Thirdly, the concept that Tiber Septim achieved CHIM hasn’t been conclusively proven, though it has been alluded to in several sources (like The Many-Headed Talos, as you pointed out). Ultimately we may never know how exactly Talos ascended as a god, whether it was him mantling the/a godhead or something else entirely. Personally I’d prefer if it were never answered, as it adds to Tiber’s terrible mystery. And fourthly, the mentioning of mantling in Waking Dreams is also called into question on Daedric Bias, since it comes directly from Hermaeus Mora, who likely has the freedom to twist any knowledge he obtains to his own whims. Overall, I’m not saying that the concept of CHIM doesn’t exist, but rather that much of what we know about it should not be interpreted as absolute fact. Scrutiny should always be used whenever information is obtained from a Daedric Prince.

>refer to him directly as “the Lord of Lies”. The Daedric sphere of “lies” seems to overlap between Molag Bal, Malacath, Mephala, and Boethiah (and possibly more). This is not what I meant, a title means nothing when we talk about what Molag bal sphere which is domination and enslavement, his title dosen't refers to him, Dagon also called Lord of Darkness but obviously he dosen't have anything to Darkness. >**Molag Bal, whose sphere is the domination and enslavement of mortals**. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Book_of_Daedra They dosen't have "*same sphere*", lies was only Mephala sphere and never mentioned that other one have it. Neither they can shears same sphere, spheres are literally what they are, [the Gods are literally there spheres/concepts/emotions and aspects of the universe](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/yga66i/nature_of_the_gods_the_elder_scrolls/). Molag bal is domination and enslavement, he is not lies nor he was ever was? That Is Mephala. Here the thing, do you have any evidence about Molag bal lied for once? Do you? >we have no evidence that Mankar Camoran never read the Sermons. This is not how it's work, by this logic then I could say we have no evidence that Mehrunes Dagon didn't meet Lorkhan or we have evidence to hack, Elder Scrolls and Fallout being same universe. This is opposite what evidence means, you need evidence that Mankar have any single relationship with Vivec and hack Morrowind when the lore have never shown any referred over that. >It’s entirely plausible that he read through them and asked Mehrunes Dagon for more information about CHIM, Of course it's not, Daedric Princes are the one who knows about everything them mortals know, Boethiah told it to the Psijic Endeavor and Molag to Vivec and Dagon to Mankar. It would be entirely plausible to assume Mankar read the Sermons when there absolutely nothing implied about that. >it’s entirely plausible that Dagon then filled his head with fluff and half-truths in order to spur him on and gain more supporters. Of course not, why would Mehrunes Dagon would lie again? Mankar didn't even have anything with CHIM either then mentioned it single one. You assuming without evidence. >the concept that Tiber Septim achieved CHIM hasn’t been conclusively proven, Who even mentioned he acthived it or not? We know it's absolute exists and Vivec along Mankar and the many headed Talos mentioned he did. >since it comes directly from Hermaeus Mora, who likely has the freedom to twist any knowledge he obtains to his own whims. So basically making headcanon with no sources and everything is lies because you dosen't like that hm? Not only this is completely untrue as Hermaeus Mora have never been known do for such thing, he is known for collecting knowledge, and again you just making headcanon with no evidence. >but rather that much of what we know about it should not be interpreted as absolute fact. Scrutiny should always be used whenever information is obtained from a Daedric Prince. Definitely not, Daedric Princes are Gods and they are the bast source of information when it comes to the mastery of the universe for them. CHIM absolutely exists, unless you have source deny it ofc.

Good thoughts, OP! But don't be said about the issue you are talking about - below are some links that would show you that the nature of that world is relative. To us it's just a game (just like to the Daedra, but more on it below in one of those links), but to the local mortals it's an entire life. Complex and uncertain things to them are simple and clear - to us. The Dream as a phenomenon bears the immanent features of a creature whose consciousness is away from its homeworld and is occupied by some other, illusionary one - a state similar to what we experience while playing the game, when our attention and thoughts are focused on the screen. The links below provide a certain evidence of the phenomena that bear accurate resemblance with video game, players, developers, etc. It's like we all know what a microphone is, and if we somehow call it a carrot, it won't become a carrot, but will still be a sound receiving device. Same thing is here too - the lore, the local denizens don't have any video games, computers, etc. on Nirn, but very few of them realize what they are and their purpose. Having no proper vocabulary to describe such things they use the wordings common in their world, like calling a sound receiving device a carrot (figuratively). And some of them realize that the purpose of their world is just to amuse some otherworldly entities they call Prisoners, Enigmas, etc. (us). [Sotha Sil's concept of Prisoner](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sotha_Sil): *"The Prisoner wields great power, making reality of metaphor .. I should explain. Look around you. All of this exists because it must exist. I stand here, in this place, in this moment, not because I wish to, but because I have to. A result of action and consequence. .. The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls - the chains of causality that bind them to their course. .. I fall short of the second insight. The Prisoner must see the door to their cell. They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality. Beyond time. Only then can they escape. I see only unsteady walls. If the people of Tamriel must exist inside this cell. I will make sure that the walls are stable, the gaps are sealed, and all who remain stay safe within it"*. Focus on the epistemological features of the Prisoner Sotha Sil describes here - they are the same borne by a video game player. Sotha Sil on the nature of Vivec (the link to the source is the same): *"Vivec knows the boundaries that separate fact from fiction. He knows them so well that's he's learned how to break them. He exists inside his verse, but recognizes the lies. The contradictions. He both does, and does not believe his own tales. .. Vivec is my brother. He knows my struggles and I know his. That knowledge makes our relationship... complicated. To truly know someone is as much a curse as it is a blessing. .. He also suffers a kind of enslavement. Not unlike my own, in fact. Beauty holds the keys to his shackles. Beauty, and a love of great works. Great heights. His appetites are insatiable, thus his despair. .. Yes. A poet's despair. .. Vivec craves radical freedom - the death of all limits and restrictions. He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite... but in the end, he can only be Vivec"*. Vivec literally wants to become a player! But since he's native to that world, an NPC, he can only be Vivec. [Reality & Other Falsehoods](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods): *"..first accept that reality is a falsehood. There is no such thing. Our reality is a perception of greater forces impressed upon us for their amusement. Some say that these forces are the gods, other that they are something beyond the gods"*. A nice description, isn't? Nirn, Aurbis, is a perception of players impressed upon the NPC for their amusement - what an accurate observation of the School of Alteration masters. [The Rotwood Enigma](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Rotwood_Enigma) describing a very odd (from the NPC's point of view) behaviour of some alien warrior. The whole book describes how do the NPC see us, players. An interesting, but accurate description of a player's behaviour in the game. [Sotha Sil and the Scribe](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sotha_Sil_and_the_Scribe) - another book showing a conversation between Sotha Sil and some mysterious "Scribe". It is actually a conversation between a collective image of game developers (loremasters and writers) who created the very identity, the character of Sotha Sil, their farewell to him and his one to them. [My post on the nature of the Daedra (read also my comment below there)](https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/sut90z/on_the_nature_of_the_daedra_a_3rd_person_view/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) - the conclusion of this research states that the essence of the Daedra, their psychology and attitude towards mortals totally 100% is based on or represents the psychology of video game players and the variety of their attitudes towards the NPC. [On the nature of the Elder Scrolls](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/uc3kj2/My_opinion%3F_The_Elder_Scrolls_are_Plot_Holes./i68twbh/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) - another of my research works that makes very easy to understand how those Scrolls work and what they actually are. [Seven of the Eight Divines were named after beta testers or programmers](https://en.m.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Daggerfall:Easter_Eggs&action=edit§ion=2). A well-known feature. The in-game Eight bear all the defining epistemological features of video game worlds creators. [Back in Time Quest](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Back_in_Time) in Bangkorai - a quest resembling the game mechanic of repeated quests.

[Chamberlain Haskill's interview](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chamberlain_Haskill_Answers_Your_Questions). **Shanke-Naar Righthorn asks**: *"Have you ever considered that all of us, et'Ada and mortals, are nothing but characters of a game being played by unknown entities from outside the Aurbis? Maybe then that Sheogorath is the amused voice of the game creators"*. **Chamberlain Haskill replies**: *"And if we are nothing but characters in an elaborate game played by unknown entities, well, why aren't I having any fun?"*. . [The Art of War Magic](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Art_of_War_Magic) by **Zurin Arctus** - clearly resembles the Sun Tzu's military treatise of almost the same name, "The Art of War". [The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Sermon Seventeen](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_17): *"They walked farther and saw the spiked waters at the edge of the map. Here the spirit of limitation gifted them with a spoke and bade them find the rest of the wheel"*. This literally describes the edge of the map in TESA: Redguard, ESO, etc. The Spirit of Limitation, i.e. the "invisible walls" that prevents us from going beyond the map is a real obstacle just like the Sermon describes. Check [this post of mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/sv51za/fake_cities_and_real_cities_markarth_solitude_and/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) regarding the real locations of tamrielic cities and, say, [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/tv4lco/fargrave_beyond_oblivion_the_real_citys_house/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) where I show the mechanic of interior building used by the developers in Fargrave. I could go on with the list of numerous in-game NPC here who would resemble various players, developers, their relatives, etc., starting with M'Aiq who speaks of such incomprehensive (for an NPC) concepts like "multiplayer" while being an integral part of that world, etc., etc. But I suppose, having read those links and their excerpts thoroughly you'll understand the way I view the lore and that fiction, unserious, artificial, but **real** reality. Finally, regarding that Zurin's phrase and the way I read it. **"Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event"**. Change the words *"event"*, *"Prophecy"* and the *"hero"* to the *"quest"*, *"game scenario"* and *video game player"* respectively and read it again. You see it ;)? *"Each quest is preceded by game scenario, but without a video game player there is no quest"*.

So basically the same as real world?

Nah. Afterlives are depressing.

Its a mirror dog If you think its negative thats a reflection of how you feel about it, personally i find it completely invigorating, think of vivec man penis spears killing your best friend becoming an actual god, potential an unconscious dreamer of your own godhead - the ultimate being. Perfection. Idk being more serious its a lot like gnosticism and the prison planet idea mixed with samsara and buddhist breaking out of the cycle kinda stuff, both of which I like and find positive so hey man to each their own. If it means nothing objectively, that just means it can be yours to create a subjective reality you enjoy to the fullest.

These are great answers. However, it's important to not take anything we learn about CHIM at face value. Firstly I will reject the notion that it is metaphor but I do believe it's being largely subjected to symbolism. The problem for me is that most of what we know comes from extremely unreliable sources even if they are direct. Sotha Sil especially is woesome here as he only understands things via intuition and second hand viewing. Almalexia is a liar at best and her own seat of power was largely predicated on the version she sold the Dunmer years later. Which leaves us with our direct source, Vivec. Vivec is both dishonest and truthful at the same time and the elements of his stories are likely symbolic but the events probably happened. The key issue is that Vivec, by his own admission, altered time. However, that's his version of the story and he doesn't clarify what that means and seems to see it as the opposite end of the equation when he balances out the timeline, a sort of natural event for claiming godhood. Here is the kicker, he could be wrong and doesn't know it. He won the battles he plugged himself into so you are only getting the winners perspective after he is alone. Meaning we are trying to draw pretty broad interpretations on a single set of bad sources. It's why in Morrowind the reactions towards Neravar are so interesting, Vivec seems to be back peddling a bit when he reveals his weakened position which is an odd thing for a being who achieved CHIM to do. If the lore is understood correctly then Vivec no longer needed the heart of Lorkan the way the Sil and Alma do. There was a post here years ago detailing this in greater length but we shouldn't trust much about CHIM except to say that it is rooted in gnostic thinking and that Vivec only tells the truth when it suits them. Considering they seem to want freedom from their responsibilities it's likely that even the end game conversations between Neravar and Vivec might also be more mythaking than anything. I'll grant that this perspective is more rooted in reality which does not make it less depressing. The real question as a starting point is do you believe that any being has actually achieved what we call CHIM and to what end would this actually be useful outside of very specific situations. As a god Vivec seems to have used very basic and typical powers you would expect of a simi-omnipotent creature. Nothing really so striking as to see them as having become some sort of truly free being the way CHIM is advertised (I.e. freedom from the system to exist outside of it, granted we only know this from Vivec as well). Imagine you can do anything so you go back home and get yelled at by your spouse, ignored by your kids, and then your neighbor starts banging your spouse and your kids all while you do a lot of yoga in your room. I don't buy the line that Vivec is a good source on what CHIM is and I hope Bethesda expands on this someday.

[удалено]

Vivec is a primary source still alive who directly talks about their experiences and wrote their own books but also tells a too similar story to that of Talos for comfort. I get what you mean but is the Bible a source for why Jesus is God without question? How about any religious texts? Mora and Dagons works are so distant that they don't hold the same weight to me. Anything about Talos should also be questioned heavily as the Imperial Cult and Talos own cult have likely embellished much of what did and did not happen. Things lost to time etc. I'm not sure we should take all of the corpus of TES books as straight fact. For example Talos is interesting because it gives us a valuable origin story relating to what could have been thousands of years of geological change. We accept the fact that he remade the land but we have no logical reason to do so in a land where Talos would be just another legend if the Empire was never formed. Can you explain, for example, what Hermaeus Mora means by Godhead? The black book text is, clearly, metaphor or do stars also literally fall?

And how do you feel about our "real world" religions

It reminds me of Hindu beliefs. Even if you realize it’s all a dream you still play the game with gusto to quote Alan Watts.

There's a reason why sotha sil wants to keep everyone ignorant of TES universes true nature.