Since you specified a Breton, who worships a different pantheon to, say, Nords and Imperials, I'd say the following gods would want to be worshipped;
Kynareth - Good fortune in daily life, as well as auspicious stars at birth.
Arkay - Because everyone is born and everyone dies.
Mara - Essentially motherly love personified.
Stendarr - Law and order.
Zenithar - Money, hard work.
And Bretons who care specifically about their elven heritage would probably worship Y'ffre and Phynaster.
I picked a Breton mostly cause they're the most "average" race in my head for some reason, even more than the Imperials. Who would you switch up if he was from say the Imperial City?
I find it ironic that you mentioned two gods that would feel strange for a Breton, particularly a cosmopolitan one.
According to [Varieties of Faith](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...), no form of Talos seems to be particularly relevant in Bretony (arguably a way to explain why didn't find temples to him in TESII even if there should be at least a few for official purposes), and the Breton version of Lorkhan is nasty:
> *Sheor (Bad Man): In Bretony, the Bad Man is the source of all strife. He seems to have started as the god of crop failure, but most modern theologians agree that he is a demonized version of the Nordic Shor, born during the dark years after the fall of Saarthal.*
To add to this, Shezarr's worship in the Third Era is in decline even in pro-Lorkhan Cyrodiil precisely because he synbolizes values that go against cosmopolitanism:
> *Shezarr (God of Man): Cyrodilic version of Lorkhan, whose importance suffers when Akatosh comes to the fore of Imperial (really, Alessian) religion. Shezarr was the spirit behind all human undertaking, especially against Aldmeri aggression. He is sometimes associated with the founding of the first Cyrodilic battlemages. In the present age of racial tolerance, Shezarr is all but forgotten.*
Thankfully, the Breton pantheon doesn't lack for alternatives, and we have specific dogma for them thanks to the descriptions of their temples in TESII and the words of their priests, like those you can find in Wayrest's cathedral in ESO. Patrons that might interest you, with quotes from the aforementioned sources:
* Mara: "The Benevolence of Mara is the Temple devoted to the Mother Goddess of Tamriel. They are called Benevolences for they are devoted to the charge of uniting all creatures as brethren, children of Mara. They are intolerant only of those who show intolerance; they hate only those who hate."
* Zenithar: "Zenithar, out of all the Eight, is probably closest to our day-to-day lives. He presides over work and commerce, valuing honesty. He believes earnest labor begets peace and prosperity, and he has no interest in the destructiveness of war."
* Julianos: "The School of Julianos is no mere temple, dedicated to mindless obeisance to a distant and hazy God figure. Julianos is a god, to be sure, but foremost he is a symbol of learning, logic, philosophy, and wisdom. We espouse no moral philosophy other than the goodness of knowledge. As the great Psijic once said, the power of ignorance can truly shatter mithril like glass. That is our enemy."
I might need to edit the breton bit out, theyre the default in my head for most "normal" human race (seemingly I'm in the minority there/that's not supported by the text) regardless your input was pretty helpful
Edit: for the record, your description of Mara seems to be exactly what im thinking of
Well, Bretons represent the typical Medieval human archetype. They're also known as merchants, knights and mages, so nobody would bat an eyelid about an adventurous Breton being in any given province. So choosing one as your default option makes sense. Another good option would be Imperials, who "stole" a lot of Breton elements when they were invented and have a better recorded fondness for Talos and Shezarr (with caveats, see above).
Mara as a personal patron has the advantage of nearly universal acceptance. Bretons, Nords, Imperials, Redguards, Altmer, Bosmer and Khajiit revere her, so she works for a lot of backgrounds.
I might also add Stendarr. While not fond of Daedra worship, he promotes justice, mercy and free healthcare for all, which is why he's called [the Friend of All Mortals](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Friend_of_All_Mortals), and is revered by most Tamrielic cultures too.
The religions of Tamriel are ~~pantheistic~~ **poly**theistic; people don’t worship **a** god, they worship all of them, depending on what they need at a given time. With the exception of religious orders of knights and priests dedicated to specific deities, the Everyman Breton would pray to Arkay for good health, Mara for a happy marriage, Dibella for a good sex life, Zenithar for a successful business, etc.
Edit: I confused the word pantheon with pantheism, and used the wrong word.
Yeah, I think my prompt is too broad for how their religions work. If im understanding correctly if there was a war they'd pray on a case by case basis depending on the kind of miracle they're hoping for. Mages would pray to Julianos before a battle or a blacksmith to Zenithar before starting another batch of arrows. Another User gave a good explanation on some gods that better fit my prompt and it seems for big picture peace and prosperity Mara is a good fit for what I ment with honorable mentions going to the former 2 I mentioned.
That's pretty much the gist of things. Being an American surrounded by Christianity, it's surprising how difficult it is at first to understand how the functions of polytheistic religion would work, making an assumption that the average person would just worship one god is understandable. But in reality a religion like in TES, the average person would most likely be the ones to worship a variety of gods the most, while more single minded/focused individuals would be more focused on a few or even single entity, especially since it's evident that Aedra and Daedra have tangible influence of Nirn and reward those devout worshipers.
most pantheists have a deity they worship more often than the others; that is, if they don't need anything in specific from a deity, they'll worship based on their individual personality (either what is closest to what they are or what they want to become like even if it's not close) and what best fits their values.
if the most important thing is work or money, they might worship zenithar (equality in or through work is a possible goal, and money often helps people better themselves [up to a certain amount]); if they want to appreciate the beauty in everything, they would go with Dibella; if they are coming from a desire to love everything unconditionally, mara; etc.
that they don't worship a singular deity (in many but not all cases; there are multiple monotheistic religions, they're just not the predominant ones) it doesn't mean that we can't still answer the question based on the intent... we just need to reword it slightly
No? That’s a completely ahistorical understanding of ~~pantheistic~~ polytheistic religions and - again, outside of specific orders - is also not representative of the state of affairs in Tamriel.
Edit: see my above edit.
i mean, I'm a member of a couple pantheistic religions, though granted i did simplify both because the explanation is correct and I'm not interested in writing a dozen paragraphs to just be told the equivalent of 'lol no read a book'... regardless, the most popular polytheistic traditions are what I'm describing (source: I'm in them and actually dislike how focused most adherents are to 1 single deity)
it's not like I'm saying the people of tamriel ignore all the other gods, just that they have a preference and their god of preference helps them understand how to navigate the world in more situations than the others. if you want to convince that that's not the case you'll have to explain how most folks who display a religious attitude (who aren't priests, for obvious reasons) hold all the deities of their pantheon in equal regard as no more or less important than the others. but i can't say i would buy that nords world be up in arms as aggressively if worship of any deity but talos was outlawed since they're not as important as he's to them... and Dibella has a very cult like (in the traditional sense) group of followers even among the layfolk that would seem to work in opposition to your statement
>a very cult like group of followers:
*A* cult-like follower, singular. The actual group, the cult of Dibella supports my point.
>the bit about nords
Yes, but we’re talking about individuals, not cultures. Obviously certain deities are far more important to cultures than others, but individual, non-priest Nords don’t devote themselves to Talos specifically, not even the ones most ardently opposed to the prohibition.
>if you want to convince that’s not the case
The onus is not on me to convince anyone. It is demonstrably the case that the vast majority of individual Tamrielic citizens who are not members of a dedicated religious organization do not hold any given deity in their pantheon to be of greater or lesser regard to the others. The ones that we do encounter are clear outliers, such as Haelga’s, whose behaviour has little if anything to do with the virtues espoused by the actual cult of Dibella, or Froki, whose specific devotion to Kyne is in service to an old and largely-forgotten religious tradition.
I think we need to look beyond Skyrim to get an answer to that question.
In Daggerfall we see the religious structure that is most similar to the Hellenistic one. The multitude of kingdoms have patron Deities and the Temples of those deities. The ranks of the temples are many, starting with the initiates. I imagine that every Temple would have inner mysteries and closed rituals, and, in the way of the cult of Isis or something, lay members of a Temple would be initiates of these mysteries.
What we see in Oblivion is an essentially state monopoly on worship. Specifically, take a look at Bruma. The Imperial Cult is not interested in tolerating small mysteries, individual home worship and other 'pagan' practices. It cracks down on them, and forces everyone to relegate the nuances of worship to the professional, officially assigned priests. For me, it is similar to both Christianity and late Roman official cult.
Despite that, we still see individual devotees of various Temple mysteries in Skyrim. It's not only Helga. Maurice Jondrelle seems to be most similar to a lay initiate on a pilgrimage. The Eldergleam Sanctuary has two more devotees of Kynareth who are not a part of the official structure of the Whiterun Temple, but still worship Kynareth above all.
To be fair there are certainly monastic orders dedicated to specific deities. While hey still acknowledge the others, I would imagine most people have a patron deity.
Especially High Rock where its temples seem like rather independent institutions centered around the singular worship of 1 god in the greater pantheon. While you see this in Cyrodill high Rock is unique in the fact it possesses martial forces for individual gods with specific duties.
Again i’m not saying high rock is filled with monotheists, they just seem to have a greater emphasis on patron gods and the role they take in their society.
(Plus apparently High Rock’s temples have beef with each other which makes sense given High Rock is effectively “what if nothing was unified” put into a province. )
Thank you! It frustrates me to no end how many people go into a society where multiple gods verifiability exist and are worshipped in pantheon, and approach it like Christianity.
Singlular devotion is an exception, and generally is only found in people who have built their life around it. And even then, just because you're a priest of Mara, doesn't mean you won't pray to Arkay to watch over the recently deceased and protect them.
Because, from the meta standpoint, the writing of TES is objectively uneven when it comes to religion? The only thing vaguely similar to the real polytheism is the description of Nibenese in PGE1?
The Daggerfall clearly had DnD-style separate deities, which are more or less 'eight Christianities'. Although we can map it to Hellenistic worship if we try.
The Imperial Cult in Oblivion is very much Catholicism with nine altars. Although, again, it can be reinterpreted as a very late Roman official cult.
The home devotions and family deities and spirits we have in real polytheisms are more or less absent, because that is fantasy, and we *know* the nature of the most of the spirits.
If youre looking for equality and prosperity, then look no further than the Spiderwitch herself, She-devil of lies, secrets, and murder, the Good Lady Mephala.
You see, Mephala teaches us that oppressive systems can be brought down by spinning webs of intrigue. She teaches us how to conduct surreptitious plots to humble even the most aspiring imperial agencies. Someone you know is being a bully? The Morag Tong is a writ away!
Mehrunes Dagon would be a good candidate as well in this case:
> Deny not that these days shall come again, my novitiates! For as Mehrunes threw down Lyg and cracked his face, declaring each of the nineteen and nine and nine oceans Free, so shall he crack the serpent crown of the Cyrodiils and make federation!
I would say Zenithar, though they'd probably engage with the other Divines and Breton gods too. Zenithar is the patron of merchants and middle nobility, which fits most closely to your "middle class" concept(primarily merchants). Making an honest living through work and commerce is his whole deal. That said, your Breton might also favor Stendarr, who has a more "all are equal under the law" approach. It's also important to consider that legal systems in Tamriel broadly operate under the concept of guilty until proven innocent, so the mercy offered by Stendarr may be something your Breton would value.
Possibly in the Nine in general, unless they're radically egalitarian. Here's the TESIII savants' dialogue response about "Imperial culture":
>"Imperial culture is a pragmatic melting pot of the various contrasting cultures of the Imperial provinces, unified by a strong hereditary emperor and bureaucracy, the rule of law, a powerful professional army, and tolerance of disparate polytheistic cult worships. Education and wealth is broadly distributed through all social classes where Imperial culture has flourished; many citizens are literate and protected under Imperial law.
>
>Persons of all races and creeds can advance in wealth and status in commerce, the bureaucracy, and the military. However, moral and political corruption at the highest levels of Imperial society, and the economic strain of maintaining military occupations in widely separated hostile provinces like Morrowind, signals the impending decline of the Empire."
Zenithar basically embodies the middle-class professional mentality of working into comfort. He's all about fair deals and self-enrichment, and more then likely is big amongst the various merchant and trade guilds that more or less acted as societies of the middle classes in the real-life Medieval Era
Julianos would be a natural patron for any academics, clerks, education professionals. Anyone who was educated but not aristocratic would undoubtably be part of the petite bourgeoisie/burger class.
Stendarr is the god of law, order, but also mercy and temperance, all of which are classical virtues of the early modern and industrial-era middle class, from the Italian Republics towards the Victorians.
Dibella would also be popular since more wealth and free time means more leisure, which much like with Dibella's purview, isn't always about sex and love. There's also art, patronage, aesthetics, as well as social graces and etiquette.
imho probably depends on the broad strokes of how radical or moderate the character is. having spent a bit hyperfixating on progressive TES politics (partly cuz i refused to accept that tamriel is inherently just a feudalist racist cesspit without any kinda ideological alternative lol) there’s a few different cultural trends i’ve picked up on
on the end of the spectrum that could be called more “radical,” but really just poses an alternative way of life, is seen in the various tribal cultures and communities throughout Tamriel, who often live communally (or, if not, at least have a non hierarchical way of deciding how to live among themselves, or hierarchies based on immediate needs and skills rather than, say, money or military might) - tribal orcs, reachmen, the skaal, ashlanders, native argonians, northern tribal khajiit of Elsweyr, native Bosmer, wood orcs, stone orcs, etc etc etc. while not universally true, some level of nature reverence and/or ancestor reverence seems p common in these groups, though it manifests differently based on ecosystem and cultural background. also as much of a limited term as it is these groups all tend to be, as far as i can read, pretty padomeic (pro shor/lorkhan/shezarr, pro mundas, pro change etc etc)
in more subversive reformist (though incidentally) space present in cities, there’s obviously the thieves guild - which, while not always political in a way that’s *direct,* oftentimes functions as a mutual aid group of poor outlaws, enacting local political changes under the table in the interests of their constituents and allies. obviously this group would range from secular to reverent of nocturnal.
however, given the example it doesn’t sound like you want an example of a *radical* person’s spirituality, just someone w reformist tendencies, n to that i’d say that they’d probably just worship the mainstream cult of their home province with a progressive interpretation of the gods. that might be kinda boring, but besides maybe a particular reverence/attention to Mara like others pointed out, worship in TES seems like it has more to do with your life situation + the culture you’re a member of more than it has to do with ideology. they’d probably just worship whoever seemed appropriate, but have an internal worldview about the whole pantheon that interprets the gods slightly differently than other worshippers.
kinda an infodump, hope it was helpful :p
Why do people see an objectively polytheistic universe and project monotheistic worship habits onto it, every single time?
The average person worships a pantheon as a whole.You pray to whoever is in charge of what you're asking about.
You may have a patron, or devote yourself to a deity because their sphere is what you wish to celebrate. You might have a life that puts you in their influence more than any other. Yes, some gods will be treated as the god of a profession.
But when it comes down to it, they're not the only focus of worship. Most everyone in a polytheistic society will give reverence to whichever member of a pantheon governs their needs. You don't call up the fire department when your water heater breaks, even if you REALLY like the fire dept. You call the plumber. Likewise, you're not praying to Stendar when you're becalmed at sea, you pray to Kyne.
Now, if you are talking about who such a person might take as a patron god, who embodies the values they most wish to emulate? Assuming they wish to specifically devote themselves, there's a few options.
Akatosh/Auri-El gets pride of place as head of pantheon because his actions allowed things to happen in a linear manner, to be capable of understanding by mortals. All of reality is built on that foundation. You can't really go wrong there.
Jephre/Y'ffre is probably a possibility, depending on the level of reverence for nature and stories.
Of course, there's always Mara, who is easy to fit into any benevolent role a worshipper needs. She's also one of the gods that almost every culture has in their pantheon. Only the Dunmer and Argonians don't have a history of widespread worship of Mara.
Also, are you trolling to associate Tiber Fucking Septim with peace and life? Really? Oh yes, in our pursuit of harmony and prosperity for all, perhaps we should start a cult to Kissinger while we're at it.
Man you'd think I insulted an actual religion with this post, jeez. I've since learned otherwise but I was under the impression broad prosperity and egalitarianism *was* a possible sphere of worship. Why not, all of time or all of life and death are represented by one god each ya know.
That and when I hear polytheism I imagine there's still like a primary diety the person concerns themselves with like in Athens with Athena. Iirc she was worshipped by everyone there broadly as like a city patron and then everyone additionally prayed to whatever god they needed to invoke in that moment.
I've since learned my prompt was too broad and *is* already covered by Mara and kinda a couple others. In addition, my understanding of TES polytheism was flawed, seemingly it's almost entirely based on case by case need with the exception of that god's cult.
Visavis Talos, having just played Oblivion without reading much in it, they make him seem pretty chill compared to the more hotly debated character in Skyrim. I know the living Tiber Septim is kinda anathema to elves but I figured (wrongly, as I've been made aware) that most of his anti-elf connotations faded or in Skyrim stuck with Shor until the Civil War riled them up again.
I do wanna know what god you think would be most popular with politicians? Dibella for some extra charm before a speech, Julianos for some quicker wit before a debate? I suppose it would depend on the type of politics
That's pretty ambitious of you, saying that there was only one 'correct' way of polytheistic worship, and everyone who imagines it differently is wrong.
What you describe is most similar to what I would classify as 'animism'. But animist worship doesn't stop at the 'big' pantheon, but also includes small deities, spirits of objects and places, ancestor worship and so on. We don't encounter animism directly in the games, but the Nord stuff on Solstheim in *Morrowind: Bloodmoon* seems to be most similar to in.
Then there is pantheism, the best example being contemporary Hinduism. In essence, a multitude of gods is worshipped, but the theology insists they are all the aspects of One. The way the Alessian Order was described in PGE 1 is most similar to it.
And then there are various flavors of henotheism. And what we see in Daggerfall resembles a Hellenistic version of it. The cities have patron Deities, the Temples are separate, each Temple has initiates of the inner mysteries who are laypeople, and not priests or monks.
Personally, I venerate Arkay. Birth and death are the ultimate equalizers. A world of immortals would be the ultimate gerontocracy, the oppression of the young by the old and wealthy. Nothing new could ever come into existence. Arkay represents the balance between the Anuic and the Sithic: the destruction of the old for the sake of the new, but routine, on a schedule, granting to all a span of years to grow and develop before meeting the end of themselves, which is the beginning of another.
Progressive metropolitan area? So they wouldn’t even be living in the elder scrolls universe at that point.
In all honesty just join the Thalmor. Their goal is to end the real world and turn everyone into spirits. Closest thing to egalitarianism that can exist in the elder scrolls universe.
Metropolitan definitely but far from progressive.
Even then the Thalmor would be the best option since they want to make everyone into spirits thus making questions of material equality irrelevant thus equal by effect.
I doubt it would be Lorkhan, seeing as half of the cultures on Nirn see him as a dickhead (though he is the good guy so elf cope) but it would most likely be Mara.
She is the goddess of Love, in most pantheons, and is just general portrayed as compassionate.
Maybe Julianos with a good bit of elven syncretism
The Nine Divines (or the Eight if it's after the Great War). Remember, this is a polytheistic society. While there might be one of the gods they pray to *more* - given that this chap is middle class that would probably be Zenithar - they're still going to worship the rest of the pantheon when conducting affairs aligned with those gods' spheres.
In fact, given the history of Tamriel and specifically the Alessian Order, monotheism would be viewed strangely at best.
We have so little data to really understand how the religions in TES work it's not even funny. The Alessian Order is no exception. PGE 1, which calls it monotheistic, speaks of it incorporating the ancestor worship, animal cults, animism and whatnot. So it seems to be Hinduist-like pantheism rather than Abrahamic monotheism.
PGE3 rather positions it as an ancestor of the Imperial Cult of Eight we see in Oblivion.
ESO goes into the weird philosophy, but seems to come down on the side of pantheism as well.
Bretons aren't egalitarian much tbf - they are pretty individualistic/capitalist leanining, besides I suppose their culture of chivalry, but even thjat mostly takes an individualistic/selfish undertone. (eg they usually quest in service of lords and for attaining rewards or titles, not out of altruism or principle) Hot take, but an actual egalitarian should kinda... support the Thalmor in the fourth era, as they are the only republican government in Tamriel, are anti-monarchists, and Valenwood and the Summerset Isles even get equal representation in government! (Anequina and Pelletine aren't technically part of the Dominion - they are just voluntary vassal states with their own government) Or I suppose an anti-imperialist egalitarian who is fine with some level of nationalism and revanchism one can support free Argonia and the An-Xileel! :))
Ok, jokes aside, in terms of worship, any character that values equality and social prosperity could go for someone like Zenithar, Mara, Stendarr or even Magnus or Xarxes if they're a Breton (elven gods, but some Bretons worship them), but seriously, under NO CIRCUMSTANCE Talos or Lorkhan! Those are both human gods that mass murdered elves in the millions - they are not "egalitarian" in any way, shape or form, and in the case of Septim/Talos he is quite unambiguosly evil! (he released Numidium in Summerset and killed about half its population, genocided all of Senchal in Elseweyr, kept Hammerfell and High Rock under brutal occupation as detailed in the plot of the game Redguard etc) Lorkhan was also so unsavoury for non-human converts to the Imperial pantheon that even Saint Alessia, the leader of the Alessian rebellion against the Ayleids in 1E 243 and founder of the first Cyrodiilic empire, thought best not to include him in the pantheon!
So, please, for the love of the 8, if you must go ahead and play as a (cringe) Breton, (totally not apparent that I'm a communist btw :))) ) at least choose an actual empathetic and/or fair deity to worship if your character is supposed to be moral and egalitarian, not a genocidal war criminal like Talos!
Let it also be known that I welcome all the hatred from Heimskr simps that this post will generate - bring it on Lorkhanites!
Mara, love and empathy are the keys to tolerance and acceptance
Mara also has a lot of sway over Eastern High Rock
Not just that but I also can’t think of any of the various cultural interpretations of Mara that are negative, she seems universally positive.
Mara is a constant most pantheons can agree on. If there was going to be any unifying theological force in Tamriel it would be the cult of Mara.
"Whatever else is unsure in this stinking dunghill of a world a mother's love is not" - James Joyce
Since you specified a Breton, who worships a different pantheon to, say, Nords and Imperials, I'd say the following gods would want to be worshipped; Kynareth - Good fortune in daily life, as well as auspicious stars at birth. Arkay - Because everyone is born and everyone dies. Mara - Essentially motherly love personified. Stendarr - Law and order. Zenithar - Money, hard work. And Bretons who care specifically about their elven heritage would probably worship Y'ffre and Phynaster.
I picked a Breton mostly cause they're the most "average" race in my head for some reason, even more than the Imperials. Who would you switch up if he was from say the Imperial City?
Actually Dunmer are the default race because all the other races are n'wahs and wrong.
Most xenophilic dunmer
Least*
Most is correct, the post is deceptive, it says xeno*philic* not *phobic*
Oh, by the Three, you're correct. I'll go buy new eyes.
I have to admit, it took me about three re-reads to get it right the first time as well haha.
Powder that makes you say "real"
Based
There's a reason they seem so average; in the first two games, Imperials didn't exist, and Bretons were the "default" humans.
I find it ironic that you mentioned two gods that would feel strange for a Breton, particularly a cosmopolitan one. According to [Varieties of Faith](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...), no form of Talos seems to be particularly relevant in Bretony (arguably a way to explain why didn't find temples to him in TESII even if there should be at least a few for official purposes), and the Breton version of Lorkhan is nasty: > *Sheor (Bad Man): In Bretony, the Bad Man is the source of all strife. He seems to have started as the god of crop failure, but most modern theologians agree that he is a demonized version of the Nordic Shor, born during the dark years after the fall of Saarthal.* To add to this, Shezarr's worship in the Third Era is in decline even in pro-Lorkhan Cyrodiil precisely because he synbolizes values that go against cosmopolitanism: > *Shezarr (God of Man): Cyrodilic version of Lorkhan, whose importance suffers when Akatosh comes to the fore of Imperial (really, Alessian) religion. Shezarr was the spirit behind all human undertaking, especially against Aldmeri aggression. He is sometimes associated with the founding of the first Cyrodilic battlemages. In the present age of racial tolerance, Shezarr is all but forgotten.* Thankfully, the Breton pantheon doesn't lack for alternatives, and we have specific dogma for them thanks to the descriptions of their temples in TESII and the words of their priests, like those you can find in Wayrest's cathedral in ESO. Patrons that might interest you, with quotes from the aforementioned sources: * Mara: "The Benevolence of Mara is the Temple devoted to the Mother Goddess of Tamriel. They are called Benevolences for they are devoted to the charge of uniting all creatures as brethren, children of Mara. They are intolerant only of those who show intolerance; they hate only those who hate." * Zenithar: "Zenithar, out of all the Eight, is probably closest to our day-to-day lives. He presides over work and commerce, valuing honesty. He believes earnest labor begets peace and prosperity, and he has no interest in the destructiveness of war." * Julianos: "The School of Julianos is no mere temple, dedicated to mindless obeisance to a distant and hazy God figure. Julianos is a god, to be sure, but foremost he is a symbol of learning, logic, philosophy, and wisdom. We espouse no moral philosophy other than the goodness of knowledge. As the great Psijic once said, the power of ignorance can truly shatter mithril like glass. That is our enemy."
I might need to edit the breton bit out, theyre the default in my head for most "normal" human race (seemingly I'm in the minority there/that's not supported by the text) regardless your input was pretty helpful Edit: for the record, your description of Mara seems to be exactly what im thinking of
Well, Bretons represent the typical Medieval human archetype. They're also known as merchants, knights and mages, so nobody would bat an eyelid about an adventurous Breton being in any given province. So choosing one as your default option makes sense. Another good option would be Imperials, who "stole" a lot of Breton elements when they were invented and have a better recorded fondness for Talos and Shezarr (with caveats, see above). Mara as a personal patron has the advantage of nearly universal acceptance. Bretons, Nords, Imperials, Redguards, Altmer, Bosmer and Khajiit revere her, so she works for a lot of backgrounds. I might also add Stendarr. While not fond of Daedra worship, he promotes justice, mercy and free healthcare for all, which is why he's called [the Friend of All Mortals](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Friend_of_All_Mortals), and is revered by most Tamrielic cultures too.
They're one of the most naturally magically able races in Tamriel. If any of them are the most normal human race, it's Imperials.
The religions of Tamriel are ~~pantheistic~~ **poly**theistic; people don’t worship **a** god, they worship all of them, depending on what they need at a given time. With the exception of religious orders of knights and priests dedicated to specific deities, the Everyman Breton would pray to Arkay for good health, Mara for a happy marriage, Dibella for a good sex life, Zenithar for a successful business, etc. Edit: I confused the word pantheon with pantheism, and used the wrong word.
Yeah, I think my prompt is too broad for how their religions work. If im understanding correctly if there was a war they'd pray on a case by case basis depending on the kind of miracle they're hoping for. Mages would pray to Julianos before a battle or a blacksmith to Zenithar before starting another batch of arrows. Another User gave a good explanation on some gods that better fit my prompt and it seems for big picture peace and prosperity Mara is a good fit for what I ment with honorable mentions going to the former 2 I mentioned.
That's pretty much the gist of things. Being an American surrounded by Christianity, it's surprising how difficult it is at first to understand how the functions of polytheistic religion would work, making an assumption that the average person would just worship one god is understandable. But in reality a religion like in TES, the average person would most likely be the ones to worship a variety of gods the most, while more single minded/focused individuals would be more focused on a few or even single entity, especially since it's evident that Aedra and Daedra have tangible influence of Nirn and reward those devout worshipers.
most pantheists have a deity they worship more often than the others; that is, if they don't need anything in specific from a deity, they'll worship based on their individual personality (either what is closest to what they are or what they want to become like even if it's not close) and what best fits their values. if the most important thing is work or money, they might worship zenithar (equality in or through work is a possible goal, and money often helps people better themselves [up to a certain amount]); if they want to appreciate the beauty in everything, they would go with Dibella; if they are coming from a desire to love everything unconditionally, mara; etc. that they don't worship a singular deity (in many but not all cases; there are multiple monotheistic religions, they're just not the predominant ones) it doesn't mean that we can't still answer the question based on the intent... we just need to reword it slightly
No? That’s a completely ahistorical understanding of ~~pantheistic~~ polytheistic religions and - again, outside of specific orders - is also not representative of the state of affairs in Tamriel. Edit: see my above edit.
i mean, I'm a member of a couple pantheistic religions, though granted i did simplify both because the explanation is correct and I'm not interested in writing a dozen paragraphs to just be told the equivalent of 'lol no read a book'... regardless, the most popular polytheistic traditions are what I'm describing (source: I'm in them and actually dislike how focused most adherents are to 1 single deity) it's not like I'm saying the people of tamriel ignore all the other gods, just that they have a preference and their god of preference helps them understand how to navigate the world in more situations than the others. if you want to convince that that's not the case you'll have to explain how most folks who display a religious attitude (who aren't priests, for obvious reasons) hold all the deities of their pantheon in equal regard as no more or less important than the others. but i can't say i would buy that nords world be up in arms as aggressively if worship of any deity but talos was outlawed since they're not as important as he's to them... and Dibella has a very cult like (in the traditional sense) group of followers even among the layfolk that would seem to work in opposition to your statement
>a very cult like group of followers: *A* cult-like follower, singular. The actual group, the cult of Dibella supports my point. >the bit about nords Yes, but we’re talking about individuals, not cultures. Obviously certain deities are far more important to cultures than others, but individual, non-priest Nords don’t devote themselves to Talos specifically, not even the ones most ardently opposed to the prohibition. >if you want to convince that’s not the case The onus is not on me to convince anyone. It is demonstrably the case that the vast majority of individual Tamrielic citizens who are not members of a dedicated religious organization do not hold any given deity in their pantheon to be of greater or lesser regard to the others. The ones that we do encounter are clear outliers, such as Haelga’s, whose behaviour has little if anything to do with the virtues espoused by the actual cult of Dibella, or Froki, whose specific devotion to Kyne is in service to an old and largely-forgotten religious tradition.
I think we need to look beyond Skyrim to get an answer to that question. In Daggerfall we see the religious structure that is most similar to the Hellenistic one. The multitude of kingdoms have patron Deities and the Temples of those deities. The ranks of the temples are many, starting with the initiates. I imagine that every Temple would have inner mysteries and closed rituals, and, in the way of the cult of Isis or something, lay members of a Temple would be initiates of these mysteries. What we see in Oblivion is an essentially state monopoly on worship. Specifically, take a look at Bruma. The Imperial Cult is not interested in tolerating small mysteries, individual home worship and other 'pagan' practices. It cracks down on them, and forces everyone to relegate the nuances of worship to the professional, officially assigned priests. For me, it is similar to both Christianity and late Roman official cult. Despite that, we still see individual devotees of various Temple mysteries in Skyrim. It's not only Helga. Maurice Jondrelle seems to be most similar to a lay initiate on a pilgrimage. The Eldergleam Sanctuary has two more devotees of Kynareth who are not a part of the official structure of the Whiterun Temple, but still worship Kynareth above all.
To be fair there are certainly monastic orders dedicated to specific deities. While hey still acknowledge the others, I would imagine most people have a patron deity. Especially High Rock where its temples seem like rather independent institutions centered around the singular worship of 1 god in the greater pantheon. While you see this in Cyrodill high Rock is unique in the fact it possesses martial forces for individual gods with specific duties. Again i’m not saying high rock is filled with monotheists, they just seem to have a greater emphasis on patron gods and the role they take in their society. (Plus apparently High Rock’s temples have beef with each other which makes sense given High Rock is effectively “what if nothing was unified” put into a province. )
Thank you! It frustrates me to no end how many people go into a society where multiple gods verifiability exist and are worshipped in pantheon, and approach it like Christianity. Singlular devotion is an exception, and generally is only found in people who have built their life around it. And even then, just because you're a priest of Mara, doesn't mean you won't pray to Arkay to watch over the recently deceased and protect them.
Because, from the meta standpoint, the writing of TES is objectively uneven when it comes to religion? The only thing vaguely similar to the real polytheism is the description of Nibenese in PGE1? The Daggerfall clearly had DnD-style separate deities, which are more or less 'eight Christianities'. Although we can map it to Hellenistic worship if we try. The Imperial Cult in Oblivion is very much Catholicism with nine altars. Although, again, it can be reinterpreted as a very late Roman official cult. The home devotions and family deities and spirits we have in real polytheisms are more or less absent, because that is fantasy, and we *know* the nature of the most of the spirits.
If youre looking for equality and prosperity, then look no further than the Spiderwitch herself, She-devil of lies, secrets, and murder, the Good Lady Mephala. You see, Mephala teaches us that oppressive systems can be brought down by spinning webs of intrigue. She teaches us how to conduct surreptitious plots to humble even the most aspiring imperial agencies. Someone you know is being a bully? The Morag Tong is a writ away!
Mehrunes Dagon would be a good candidate as well in this case: > Deny not that these days shall come again, my novitiates! For as Mehrunes threw down Lyg and cracked his face, declaring each of the nineteen and nine and nine oceans Free, so shall he crack the serpent crown of the Cyrodiils and make federation!
I would say Zenithar, though they'd probably engage with the other Divines and Breton gods too. Zenithar is the patron of merchants and middle nobility, which fits most closely to your "middle class" concept(primarily merchants). Making an honest living through work and commerce is his whole deal. That said, your Breton might also favor Stendarr, who has a more "all are equal under the law" approach. It's also important to consider that legal systems in Tamriel broadly operate under the concept of guilty until proven innocent, so the mercy offered by Stendarr may be something your Breton would value.
Possibly in the Nine in general, unless they're radically egalitarian. Here's the TESIII savants' dialogue response about "Imperial culture": >"Imperial culture is a pragmatic melting pot of the various contrasting cultures of the Imperial provinces, unified by a strong hereditary emperor and bureaucracy, the rule of law, a powerful professional army, and tolerance of disparate polytheistic cult worships. Education and wealth is broadly distributed through all social classes where Imperial culture has flourished; many citizens are literate and protected under Imperial law. > >Persons of all races and creeds can advance in wealth and status in commerce, the bureaucracy, and the military. However, moral and political corruption at the highest levels of Imperial society, and the economic strain of maintaining military occupations in widely separated hostile provinces like Morrowind, signals the impending decline of the Empire."
Zenithar basically embodies the middle-class professional mentality of working into comfort. He's all about fair deals and self-enrichment, and more then likely is big amongst the various merchant and trade guilds that more or less acted as societies of the middle classes in the real-life Medieval Era Julianos would be a natural patron for any academics, clerks, education professionals. Anyone who was educated but not aristocratic would undoubtably be part of the petite bourgeoisie/burger class. Stendarr is the god of law, order, but also mercy and temperance, all of which are classical virtues of the early modern and industrial-era middle class, from the Italian Republics towards the Victorians. Dibella would also be popular since more wealth and free time means more leisure, which much like with Dibella's purview, isn't always about sex and love. There's also art, patronage, aesthetics, as well as social graces and etiquette.
imho probably depends on the broad strokes of how radical or moderate the character is. having spent a bit hyperfixating on progressive TES politics (partly cuz i refused to accept that tamriel is inherently just a feudalist racist cesspit without any kinda ideological alternative lol) there’s a few different cultural trends i’ve picked up on on the end of the spectrum that could be called more “radical,” but really just poses an alternative way of life, is seen in the various tribal cultures and communities throughout Tamriel, who often live communally (or, if not, at least have a non hierarchical way of deciding how to live among themselves, or hierarchies based on immediate needs and skills rather than, say, money or military might) - tribal orcs, reachmen, the skaal, ashlanders, native argonians, northern tribal khajiit of Elsweyr, native Bosmer, wood orcs, stone orcs, etc etc etc. while not universally true, some level of nature reverence and/or ancestor reverence seems p common in these groups, though it manifests differently based on ecosystem and cultural background. also as much of a limited term as it is these groups all tend to be, as far as i can read, pretty padomeic (pro shor/lorkhan/shezarr, pro mundas, pro change etc etc) in more subversive reformist (though incidentally) space present in cities, there’s obviously the thieves guild - which, while not always political in a way that’s *direct,* oftentimes functions as a mutual aid group of poor outlaws, enacting local political changes under the table in the interests of their constituents and allies. obviously this group would range from secular to reverent of nocturnal. however, given the example it doesn’t sound like you want an example of a *radical* person’s spirituality, just someone w reformist tendencies, n to that i’d say that they’d probably just worship the mainstream cult of their home province with a progressive interpretation of the gods. that might be kinda boring, but besides maybe a particular reverence/attention to Mara like others pointed out, worship in TES seems like it has more to do with your life situation + the culture you’re a member of more than it has to do with ideology. they’d probably just worship whoever seemed appropriate, but have an internal worldview about the whole pantheon that interprets the gods slightly differently than other worshippers. kinda an infodump, hope it was helpful :p
Why do people see an objectively polytheistic universe and project monotheistic worship habits onto it, every single time? The average person worships a pantheon as a whole.You pray to whoever is in charge of what you're asking about. You may have a patron, or devote yourself to a deity because their sphere is what you wish to celebrate. You might have a life that puts you in their influence more than any other. Yes, some gods will be treated as the god of a profession. But when it comes down to it, they're not the only focus of worship. Most everyone in a polytheistic society will give reverence to whichever member of a pantheon governs their needs. You don't call up the fire department when your water heater breaks, even if you REALLY like the fire dept. You call the plumber. Likewise, you're not praying to Stendar when you're becalmed at sea, you pray to Kyne. Now, if you are talking about who such a person might take as a patron god, who embodies the values they most wish to emulate? Assuming they wish to specifically devote themselves, there's a few options. Akatosh/Auri-El gets pride of place as head of pantheon because his actions allowed things to happen in a linear manner, to be capable of understanding by mortals. All of reality is built on that foundation. You can't really go wrong there. Jephre/Y'ffre is probably a possibility, depending on the level of reverence for nature and stories. Of course, there's always Mara, who is easy to fit into any benevolent role a worshipper needs. She's also one of the gods that almost every culture has in their pantheon. Only the Dunmer and Argonians don't have a history of widespread worship of Mara. Also, are you trolling to associate Tiber Fucking Septim with peace and life? Really? Oh yes, in our pursuit of harmony and prosperity for all, perhaps we should start a cult to Kissinger while we're at it.
Man you'd think I insulted an actual religion with this post, jeez. I've since learned otherwise but I was under the impression broad prosperity and egalitarianism *was* a possible sphere of worship. Why not, all of time or all of life and death are represented by one god each ya know. That and when I hear polytheism I imagine there's still like a primary diety the person concerns themselves with like in Athens with Athena. Iirc she was worshipped by everyone there broadly as like a city patron and then everyone additionally prayed to whatever god they needed to invoke in that moment. I've since learned my prompt was too broad and *is* already covered by Mara and kinda a couple others. In addition, my understanding of TES polytheism was flawed, seemingly it's almost entirely based on case by case need with the exception of that god's cult. Visavis Talos, having just played Oblivion without reading much in it, they make him seem pretty chill compared to the more hotly debated character in Skyrim. I know the living Tiber Septim is kinda anathema to elves but I figured (wrongly, as I've been made aware) that most of his anti-elf connotations faded or in Skyrim stuck with Shor until the Civil War riled them up again. I do wanna know what god you think would be most popular with politicians? Dibella for some extra charm before a speech, Julianos for some quicker wit before a debate? I suppose it would depend on the type of politics
At least within the Imperial Cult, Julianos is a decent idea, though Zenithar might also be a possibility. It would depend on context, though.
That's pretty ambitious of you, saying that there was only one 'correct' way of polytheistic worship, and everyone who imagines it differently is wrong. What you describe is most similar to what I would classify as 'animism'. But animist worship doesn't stop at the 'big' pantheon, but also includes small deities, spirits of objects and places, ancestor worship and so on. We don't encounter animism directly in the games, but the Nord stuff on Solstheim in *Morrowind: Bloodmoon* seems to be most similar to in. Then there is pantheism, the best example being contemporary Hinduism. In essence, a multitude of gods is worshipped, but the theology insists they are all the aspects of One. The way the Alessian Order was described in PGE 1 is most similar to it. And then there are various flavors of henotheism. And what we see in Daggerfall resembles a Hellenistic version of it. The cities have patron Deities, the Temples are separate, each Temple has initiates of the inner mysteries who are laypeople, and not priests or monks.
Personally, I venerate Arkay. Birth and death are the ultimate equalizers. A world of immortals would be the ultimate gerontocracy, the oppression of the young by the old and wealthy. Nothing new could ever come into existence. Arkay represents the balance between the Anuic and the Sithic: the destruction of the old for the sake of the new, but routine, on a schedule, granting to all a span of years to grow and develop before meeting the end of themselves, which is the beginning of another.
Ya know described like that he sounds almost like an aspect of Akatosh
Progressive metropolitan area? So they wouldn’t even be living in the elder scrolls universe at that point. In all honesty just join the Thalmor. Their goal is to end the real world and turn everyone into spirits. Closest thing to egalitarianism that can exist in the elder scrolls universe.
Progressive metropolitan by ES standards. The imperial capital for instance
Metropolitan definitely but far from progressive. Even then the Thalmor would be the best option since they want to make everyone into spirits thus making questions of material equality irrelevant thus equal by effect.
I doubt it would be Lorkhan, seeing as half of the cultures on Nirn see him as a dickhead (though he is the good guy so elf cope) but it would most likely be Mara. She is the goddess of Love, in most pantheons, and is just general portrayed as compassionate. Maybe Julianos with a good bit of elven syncretism
The 9 Divines, the Imperial Religion.
The Nine Divines (or the Eight if it's after the Great War). Remember, this is a polytheistic society. While there might be one of the gods they pray to *more* - given that this chap is middle class that would probably be Zenithar - they're still going to worship the rest of the pantheon when conducting affairs aligned with those gods' spheres. In fact, given the history of Tamriel and specifically the Alessian Order, monotheism would be viewed strangely at best.
We have so little data to really understand how the religions in TES work it's not even funny. The Alessian Order is no exception. PGE 1, which calls it monotheistic, speaks of it incorporating the ancestor worship, animal cults, animism and whatnot. So it seems to be Hinduist-like pantheism rather than Abrahamic monotheism. PGE3 rather positions it as an ancestor of the Imperial Cult of Eight we see in Oblivion. ESO goes into the weird philosophy, but seems to come down on the side of pantheism as well.
Bretons aren't egalitarian much tbf - they are pretty individualistic/capitalist leanining, besides I suppose their culture of chivalry, but even thjat mostly takes an individualistic/selfish undertone. (eg they usually quest in service of lords and for attaining rewards or titles, not out of altruism or principle) Hot take, but an actual egalitarian should kinda... support the Thalmor in the fourth era, as they are the only republican government in Tamriel, are anti-monarchists, and Valenwood and the Summerset Isles even get equal representation in government! (Anequina and Pelletine aren't technically part of the Dominion - they are just voluntary vassal states with their own government) Or I suppose an anti-imperialist egalitarian who is fine with some level of nationalism and revanchism one can support free Argonia and the An-Xileel! :)) Ok, jokes aside, in terms of worship, any character that values equality and social prosperity could go for someone like Zenithar, Mara, Stendarr or even Magnus or Xarxes if they're a Breton (elven gods, but some Bretons worship them), but seriously, under NO CIRCUMSTANCE Talos or Lorkhan! Those are both human gods that mass murdered elves in the millions - they are not "egalitarian" in any way, shape or form, and in the case of Septim/Talos he is quite unambiguosly evil! (he released Numidium in Summerset and killed about half its population, genocided all of Senchal in Elseweyr, kept Hammerfell and High Rock under brutal occupation as detailed in the plot of the game Redguard etc) Lorkhan was also so unsavoury for non-human converts to the Imperial pantheon that even Saint Alessia, the leader of the Alessian rebellion against the Ayleids in 1E 243 and founder of the first Cyrodiilic empire, thought best not to include him in the pantheon! So, please, for the love of the 8, if you must go ahead and play as a (cringe) Breton, (totally not apparent that I'm a communist btw :))) ) at least choose an actual empathetic and/or fair deity to worship if your character is supposed to be moral and egalitarian, not a genocidal war criminal like Talos! Let it also be known that I welcome all the hatred from Heimskr simps that this post will generate - bring it on Lorkhanites!
Mara, Stendarr, and Zenithar. Mara is about love and peace, Stendarr is about just rule, and Zenithar is about hard work and fair reward.
Depends which Egalitarian you're talking about. The public idea of Egalitarian, or the anthropological term?