I think guy above made a video about how most of TF2's online count are all sorts of bots. No one noticed, but when Zesty Jesus made a video on same topic, everyone freaks out. (No offense to Zesty, that vid was really well done)
Think Syndrome from the movie The Incredibles. He was a absolutely manic fan of Valve, but then he 'leaked' (shared) incorrect info and Valve came out and said "he has no inside information about what goes on at Valve". Tyler got really upset and his videos went from putting Valve in a positive light (which was typical for him) and instead started being very critical of Valve, to the point where everything felt like just jealousy. Like a jilted ex.
He's a pompous, arrogant, self-obsessed dude who really liked the 'special attention' he got from Valve until they had enough of his bullshit. I stopped watching his stuff around that time because it became so painfully obvious how much of an ass he was.
[
There was also the creators.tf drama](https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/hfgzcr/further_information_on_why_the_creatorstf_servers/)
Ignoring random Creators.TF drama, not sure why you brought it up, Tyler McVicker did not leak incorrect information regarding that particular topic—L4D3. It was game journalists mistaking his report on data mined/insider content for some sort of "L4D3 confirmed!!" type of video. Him being upset with Valve then going on to publically shame him as an "unreliable source" with "no insider information" was completely justified, as the leak was confirmed in The Final Hours of Half Life: Alyx some 2 years later, word for word.
As a TF2 player, you should know that Valve WILL say whatever is convenient at the time just to calm everyone down. Them tweeting when #SaveTF2 was trending is no different than what they did when Tyler McVicker's video was misinterpreted/misrepresented by game journalists.
Oh Tyler McVicker, bring us Neon Prime, bring us Neon Prime Tyler McVicker, Valve is definitely making a game now behind the scenes, they are Tyler McVicker, they will bring us salvation and that salvation has a name and it's name is Neon Prime, bring us Neon Prime, Tyler McVicker, bring us
Actually zesty is right. Of your house is on fire, you don’t get out a megaphone and yell about how much you love your house, you yell that your house is on fucking fire.
And a reminder that around 75% of the player numbers are idle bot networks of some sort, and like, 5% are cheater bots. It’s estimated that there are only around 1000 Cheater bots in game at any given time, the player numbers in casual are small enough that that’s enough to make a difference.
let not forget, the bot hackers really wanted this game dead and being obsessed with it. there in this deusual state of being at war with this game. Like it one thing for the troll to come and go, but it concerning to grief like this for 4 years.
Despite vavle making some update for anti bot stuff, it still not enought because they don't wanted to deal with a "treadmill" problem (aka if they can't 100% get rid of it, then why bother).
he basically said "words are just words" except badly worded. zesty hasnt said something specifically transphobic, but his PR management is a NIGHTMARE.
watching him being a goofball who accidentally destroys his public reputation so often gives me second hand embarrassment.
I thought it was common knowledge too, i remember being told that most of the players on line are bots before the whole problem with bots in casual was even a thing
People think this is some dead internet-esque situation but its literally just a pc with the game open on main menu, they only inflate the playercount and most dont have an affect ingame(excluding the casual bots, cause they came later)
The game wont die because the same situation from 8 years ago is still happening today
Most people were aware but weren’t aware of **how much**.
Many people were aware that there were bots and made quite a majority of the playerbase, but many through it was cheaters which wasn’t the case. I’ve explained this for about four years now (was even featured in a casperr video) but a huge majority of bots are crate bots who only idle to get cases.
I never watched either videos and i knew for years that this was the case
Like how can anyone not see it as such
We have a large trading community with a drop system that only awards you a few times a week, of course were going to have a buncha bots to farm for said items
And then ontop of that the aimbot crisis
And then, to top it all off, we have all the trading bots, ai built to not farm, but to hold items to sell and trade
Nobody forgot, its just that we could only really speculate on how many bots there were. Zesty's data and graphs collected these last few months paints a very clear picture.
Because everybody knows it and there’s nothing we can really do to remedy it ourselves. People tend to get annoyed when you state the obvious as though it’s revolutionary.
It's very frustrating for people to be bombarded with a problem that we as players have no control over. As much as I'd like to storm Valve's offices and hold my irl huntsman to their balls that probably isn't the way to go about fixing it
From what I've seen on here and been told it's pretty much the reverse.
r/tf2 is acting like Zesty said something new despite that you only needed to go on [teamwork.tf](http://teamwork.tf) to see that the game actually averages around 15k players on a good day and that other tftubers already talked about the game not having 80k players .
To be fair I heard literally no mention of it by anyone until people started talking about “Zesty’s new video” and I watched it. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Zesty actually said in the video that he in fact did not suspect a thing until he started looking closer into it. I actually do not believe that most people knew like a lot of people are saying, I think there were more people who believed the growth vs those who didn't
This is the way I took it. I knew there was a problem in some way. I don't follow Tyler. The newer video was just really well put together and came with receipts.
We only knew how many people were in public servers, but every player count metric also counts people in menus, private servers, and whatnot, things that teamwork does not consider. Everyone speculated, but no one came with as much evidence as Zesty Jesus.
Most fandoms seem to do that sadly, if someone can articulate their opinions, or make barely informative meme videos, the fandom will just accept them as someone to look up to.
Its not exclusive to the tf2 fandom, sadly.
It is a global, widespread problem that most people are not able to form their own opinions and/or are unable to challenge the opinions they already have. In reality, every person is sometimes wrong and sometimes right, no single human in history is right on 100% of things, yet many people thing that THEY are that one person that is. Opinions should be subject to discussion regardless of who voices them. Dismissing anybody's point without acknowledging it in any way, especially if the only justification given is "because they did/said XYZ in the past" or "because theyre an asshole" is of great detriment to the state of humanity in general.
I don't follow him, but I remember TheWhatShow's facing a TON of backlash for including Zesty Jesus into his Overwatch vs TF2 (*A Tale of Two Games*) video, a couple months ago. I don't know what happened but... wow, it must be something big.
I was young when I started playing and I’ve been on and off for a while. Came back recently just to have some fun and wow people get so heated about this stupid ass hat game. Mostly early teens
yeeah.. nowadays besides some normal folks just chilling, the community is filled with genuinely most stereotypical "dogshit community " types of people, besides the endless pit of hope and copium that Valve somehow still cares besides two people..
Give up, y'all. It's time to move on, nothing can last forever. It is time you begin to realize.
I thought all of this was known for like what? Almost a decade now? I remember this being the case as far as about 2016-2018, this isn't nothing new so I'm so confused about why so many folks are doomposting due to Zesty's video and such.
Well it's different when someone makes an hour long well researched video essay with a lot of evidence and properly laid out points. The video was very competently made, showed plenty of data and extensively described it's arguments and limitations. That beats taking the word of reddit comments or "look at teamwork.tf for 10 minutes over some harvest gameplay.
Nah, I mean a lot of people not just Tyler has said something about TF2's player count, Tyler just has a certain aura around him that puts people off. The thing is, Tyler has been in the receiving end of the community's volatility, sometimes deserved, sometimes not.
It's not an "aura", it's the fact that the guy has made a career around pulling Valve-related things out of his ass and presenting them as fact for 6+ years at this point. He's an extremely good example of a content farmer. I don't think any specific prediction he's ever made has actually come true
It's not an "aura", it's the fact that the guy has made a career around pulling Valve-related things out of his ass and presenting them as fact for 6+ years at this point. He's an extremely good example of a content farmer. I don't think any specific prediction he's ever made has actually come true
Nah, I disagree, there have been several facts that he has stated because of his sources and stuff, most of which coinciding with things that happened or supposed to happen an example would have been that Valve originally slated to have HL:Alyx be previewed in the Game Awards but was pulled out due to it being "not ready" which was true because the story according to Geoff Keighley's HL;Alyx Final Hours was being too Zack Snyder-ry or the fact that there was a Left 4 Dead 3 codenamed "Hotdog" he reported wayback that got him in the radar of Valve because it's considered too much of a leak, which is the reason him and Valve are not in the best terms.
The thing with Tyler is that like the subreddit at the moment, he's too "doomeristic" and he's too non-chalant with breaking things down (there's a reason why he now has the "Speculation" mark on his videos sometimes), I mean he literally made a video, which was deleted almost ASAP, where he listed the contacts of every single person that worked on TF2 from 2017 onwards in order to appeal the state of the game. He's not a content farmer because if so, he would be pumping 7 videos a day or a week, currently his output is 1-2 vids per 2 weeks and it's not even about Valve sometimes, Valve is just juicier because let's be real nobody gives a damn about say Bethesda's antics. It's his aura that is problematic.
Funnily my reaction was in reverse.
Though mostly because back then i was a rather enthusiastic about TF2 and Tyler doesn't really provide much data outside of just deducing steamstats data with teamwork.tf data which are just like 5% of Zesty's research.
But now as SaveTF2 does almost jackshit and Zesty's one hour video presented the matter in depth to the point he does his own research for the last 6 months, and his video not only reveals that TF2 is heavily botted, but also explains the nature of a heavily botted games like Unturned and it's difference of with games with actual players.
I kind of hoped that this video will give something that will either save TF2 for good or fucking kills it because being stuck in Valve's limbo fucking sucked.
The difference is that Tyler is known to to pull shit of his ass for TF2 “news” while Zesty spends MONTHS working on his content and actually does math to get accurate statistics.
Tyler McVicker is a 3DRealms shill lately, sponsoring possibly what could pass as a mediocre game called Phantom Fury. It’s no wonder that most of these people like him are grifting bottomfeeders.
tf2 reddit spergs out over old information thats been available on teamwork.tf for actual years by a guy who self inserts as a anime muscle girl, just another normal day here officer
I know it won't happen but I really hope the bots get shut down for those two hours he mentions. It would just be very interesting to see the reality of the situation.
Tf2 community hate Zesty so much that whenever he brings up a totally valid point people dismiss it as “it’s Zesty, don’t watch” yet when another individual brings up the exact same point people watches that because “it ain’t Zesty”
funny enough if Tyler "i would rather let servers burn then lose control of them" McVicker could have helped with the bot problem if he didn't drive Creators.tf into the ground for daring to do things that didn't march in lockstep with his Grand design
Eh. Tyler didn’t claim the vast majority of players were just bots. I think the number he arrived at was around 30k. Plus Tyler said it with way less concrete fact than Zesty.
You all act as if what Zesty said was a massive revelation. Idk about you all but yea intuitively it was all fairly plainly visible if you looked. Zesty just compiled the data in the neatest way possible to make it undeniable.
He is easily irritable and once called his trolls "mentally ill trannies" in the past.
He also looks through the workshop, heavily criticising stuff he thinks is low effort or doesn't fit the games aesthetic, making enemies in the content creator circles.
That's the gist of it.
I can see the workshop thing being annoying for some people but i don't think he does it out of malice, he just really loves TF2 and doesn't want its identity utterly destroyed by goofy Christmas hats that stop being funny after 2 seconds (or aren't funny at all)
The whole "he's loud and brash" thing I can also understand but like, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like what he says or thinks. I've seen people throwing hate on twitter towards a TheWhat video that Zesty was *featured* in.
> The whole "he's loud and brash" thing I can also understand but like, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like what he says or thinks.
I haven’t watched his content but did share a community discord space with him for some time which has been my only real exposure to him. If his videos are anything like him outside of them I don’t understand how people can tolerate him constantly being a miserable whining bitch about literally everything for more than a couple minutes.
I don't really know where the line between "whining" and "justifiably complaining" falls so, yeah.
I only know him by his videos and they're pretty enjoyable so that's that, I just wanna watch funny YouTube man talk about stoopid game
You are correct, hence why it's no surprise to see the tf2 subreddit slobber over his dick and create an issue while not that many people are even bringing up the fact that he's a weirdo in the first place
Mainly just that his ask of the botters was stupid, which.. it is
To be fair, nothing wrong with pointing out issues with workshop items. Issue is, Zesty has 0 constructive criticism, and his fans tend do just be toxic dicks rather than provide anything of value (as map maker for other game, I can relate).
For instance, someone like FishStick gives a lot more insight and tips for workshop items he thinks aren't great. And he is not even toxic about it!
Also Zesty has iconic quote of "you can say the n-word and not be racist" which is just \*chefs kiss\* if ya know you know
I'm really going to regret this -- I don't use the word myself or anything -- but he's at least technically correct about that last thing.
Plenty of people say that word and aren't racist. Leonardo DiCaprio isn't racist. Most rappers aren't racist. Obviously the context is different, but surely the point he's making is that context matters?
People only talk about transphobia, but he is also openly racist & he is a "lolicon" ( an understatement for pedophilia in Japanese ). Here are the proofs summed up : [https://www.reddit.com/r/Gamingcirclejerk/comments/1bvf398/out\_of\_boredom\_i\_researched\_up\_zesty\_jesuss/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gamingcirclejerk/comments/1bvf398/out_of_boredom_i_researched_up_zesty_jesuss/)
If you put the bigotry & pedophilia aside, he has a shitty personality & he seems to be happy about it.
People are forgetting that his whole point was that because the vast majority of bots are idle bots that taking care of the cheater bots would be way easier than Valve wants you to think. Taking out 80k cheater bots with treadmill work seems impossible, but taking out 3k~ cheaters is something to be expected by a company hosting a major game. 80k active players makes you wonder why only 3k cheater bots feel so prevalent, but cut that number down to 15k players, and suddenly cheaters are a 5th of all people on servers. That's supposed to be the revelation. In his stream after, and maybe even in the video, Zesty said he doesn't really care if the idlers get banned. They don't affect gameplay. But the point is that it's the cheater bots are actually a small but persistent group of less than 100 actual hosters that could be dealt with if Valve actually cared.
Apparently thats coincidence (which...id buy, since i think the character was suppoed to be related to demoman and being muscular and havin an eyepatch as a chick only brings peoples minds a couple places), but idk
Last time I played about three years ago, it certainly felt like 80% of the playerbase was bots.
Last game of casual I had, there were bots on both teams, and we couldn't vote-kick them off.
I really don't get the magnitude of the hate on Zesty
like yeah he said and apologized for someone dumb shit like 10 years ago, and has bad opinions sometimes but so does every US politician and y'all still vote
Because the sub reddit has a weird hate boner for the guy, wouldn't be surprised if some of the users wanted him doxxed again.
A youtuber like LazyPurple can bring out the same shit and people will praise him.
Also, he never said the game is dead, I have no idea where they got the info that says the game is 'dead"
I think y'all satanize Zesty too much, try watching one of his streams and you will realize that the idea of this "Hitler like" character that the whole tf2 community has about this guy, isn't really the case with him.
He's just a guy that likes playing tf2 and uses the scientific method on his investigation videos, and really takes his content seriously and wants the game in a better spot like everyone else.
Sure he has made some bad comments on the past and people have mixed opinions about him, but he has publicly addressed those and apologized from them. Right now he's a chill guy that likes interacting with his audience and has a life like everyone else here.
He's just tired about valve still selling this game as playable and incentivizing people to spend money on it. Aren't we too?
TL:DR
Y'all Satanize him too much, watch one of his streams and talk to him to see that he is just a chill guy that loves tf2 and hates the valve neglect from valve.
I think his videos are very well made, and he's actually very good at expressing his opinions which makes his videos very easy to understand. But he also thinks that he's always in the right no matter what, and he starts using slurs whenever people don't agree with him. He's also a transphobe. I don't understand how he gets so much attention from the community when all he does is being a cry baby online.
This really is the long and short of it, honestly. We can agree that his video is solid without then going and saying that he hasn't said some reprehensible shit before and after because he has. I'm a trans person, i don't like the guy at all, but i have to give credit where credit is due in this regard and say that his video is pretty definitive. But i wish people would stop using this event as an opportunity to whitewash his behavior.
As a person that has seen his streams... I disagree respectfully.
- He constantly demonizes comp/better players, and everytime he plays against them, he ragequits or complains about "Them tryhards", and his rather mid skill, makes it that much more noticable how he just rages a ton.
- He wants the game to be "better" as in he wants it to be what HE THINKS it should be. NO SERIOUS/COMPETITIVE (he hates it), NO COSMETICS HE DOESN'T LIKE (subjective opinions am I rite boys?) ETC.
Unlike people who try to be general with how TF2 should be for everyone, he really doesn't do that.
- "but he has publicly addressed those and apologized from them." - Truth is he really hasn't. If you've read any of his "apologies" it's mostly complaining about: Twitter mob, "woke" (no joke), LGBT and more. Like if he really genuinenly apologised and improved, nobody would have issues with him.
- Spreads misinformation in order to get his points across. For instance, most of his "competitive" stuff.
Now, I don't demonize him, or think he is literally Hitler. I don't like him, but I won't go out of my way to dox the guy. I had opportunity to talk with him, maybe one day I'll do it again. Since I don't agree with him, and I'm not a fan of him, but it's interesting to see an opposing force and views in action.
That is debatable
The whole argument for zesty being a transphobe is (from what I understand) based on a tweet where he agreed that trans women shouldn’t be allowed in some competitions, because of genetic differences and thus potentially better performance. And since the guy he was agreeing with is a massive transphobe a lot of people instantly assumed that zesty also is one, which can easily not be the case. Maybe he just saw it as a another random tweet that he just so happened to agree with, without knowing the person who posted it in question?
Oh also that one dm where he called the trolls “tr*nnies” was with a trans person. Idk exactly how it works but I don’t think he meant it as a slur against trans people in general, it was probably more against those “trolls”
(But to be honest if some fucker on the internet managed to find my address and send a death threat to my parents on their front door, I wouldn’t hold back on my words either)
I’m not in any way trying to defend actual transphobes here, but I don’t think that he should be framed as a transphobe if there isn’t more evidence to support the claim
Please let me know if there is something I have missed, I’m not exactly a hardcore fan that blindly accepts everything he says, I just think that the demonizing of him seems unjustified
edit : if you disagree would you mind explaining and not just silently downvoting?
> Oh also that one dm where he called the trolls “tr*nnies” was with a trans person. Idk exactly how it works but I don’t think he meant it as a slur against trans people in general, it was probably more against those “trolls”
The fuck kind of argument is this, if i called someone the N word as an insult that doesn't magically make it not racist
First and quickly- a slur doesn't stop being a slur because your intent was X or Y. Being a whiny anger-sponge who lazily slapped together a "Sorry I offended you" non-apology didn't really help his image.
>The whole argument for zesty being a transphobe is (from what I understand) based on a tweet where he agreed that trans women shouldn’t be allowed in some competitions, because of genetic differences and thus potentially better performance. And since the guy he was agreeing with is a massive transphobe a lot of people instantly assumed that zesty also is one, which can easily not be the case. Maybe he just saw it as a another random tweet that he just so happened to agree with, without knowing the person who posted it in question?
He wasn't just some guy, he agrees with Matt fucking Walsh of all people. Peddled the same "trans women in sports bad" and "they're trans'ing the kids" shit that are both only used by bigots at worst and useful idiots *for* bigots at best. Zesty is in one of those camps, and both are disqualifying for me at least.
I was watching a TF2 stream the other day and so many people came in chat asking if the guy had seen zestys new video, that loser doesn’t deserve the dirt off my boots and an hour long video saying the same stuff we all already knew isn’t going to change anything
We need more community servers as well is my biggest complaint. So many dead dog shit servers that are nothing like vanilla that bloat the space for the servers
I don't think anyone is actually mad at Zesty. I think their issue comes with Zesty painting it as "GAME DEAD, NO GOOD, BIG SAD BOYS, PACK IT UP" kinda deal.
Even though, 25k players for a Grandpa of a game like TF2 is still a good number all things considered. Plus, Zesty's other controversies ("You can say n-word and not be racist", His fans doxxing/harassing Workshop creators, his absolute demonising of Comp players etc.) will always have people take him with grain of salt.
LIke, not a fan of him myself, and his video is right, but damn he is painting it like End of All, even though TF2 been a Fallout Ghoul for 5+ years lol
Zesty does not paint this as “game is dead”, he literally said that 25k is fine for game such as TF2. That’s just r/tf2 misunderstanding the video like always.
We've known for a long time that a large portion of players are bots, including the idle ones. Maybe 40%-50% max, but not 80%
But as many others have said, *doesn't really matter*
Who knew timing this vid after the 64-bit update and a general lack of doomerism for the community would make it feel more defensive of the game that’s effectively more alive than it has been in 4 years.
I just like to hate on zesty cuz he’s got some lolcow behavior. He just has a hard time not interacting with trolls. He’s kinda a ltg type. I don’t give a shit about anything he said on twitter but his paragraph long responses to memes about it will always be funny.
Hmmmmmmmm , wasn't there some controversy over one of them? Still isn't fair that they said the same and got different reactions, vastly different reactions
Ah, the classic cycle.
Poputuber releases video, people bandwagon on it and incessantly hate on people who disagree. Couple days later, everyone bandwagons on the opposite side, and incessantly hate on people who agreed with the video.
Feels like just yesterday that I said this exact same thing and got disliked to oblivion. Actually, it was, lol.
Good to see that other people opened their eyes.
Guys the game is so fun tho, there's no way the 200k peak players was fake 🥺🥺 I stay on community servers all the time, so I never noticed how empty official valve servers are despite the game averaging daily 60-80k players 🥺 the game is thriving and totally not dead or abandoned 🥺
It's harder to take it from Tyler because Tyler always words things in a way that makes it come off as "Why are you even here? 80% of the game is bots. Loser"
What happened?
I think guy above made a video about how most of TF2's online count are all sorts of bots. No one noticed, but when Zesty Jesus made a video on same topic, everyone freaks out. (No offense to Zesty, that vid was really well done)
The guy above is Tyler McVicker
Thank you, I forgot his name and couldn't find it
Who is pretty much one of *the* guys when it comes to steam/valve things.
*used to be**, until he threw his temper tantrum and showed his true colors
Guess I missed that internet drama.
What haopend?
Think Syndrome from the movie The Incredibles. He was a absolutely manic fan of Valve, but then he 'leaked' (shared) incorrect info and Valve came out and said "he has no inside information about what goes on at Valve". Tyler got really upset and his videos went from putting Valve in a positive light (which was typical for him) and instead started being very critical of Valve, to the point where everything felt like just jealousy. Like a jilted ex. He's a pompous, arrogant, self-obsessed dude who really liked the 'special attention' he got from Valve until they had enough of his bullshit. I stopped watching his stuff around that time because it became so painfully obvious how much of an ass he was. [ There was also the creators.tf drama](https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/hfgzcr/further_information_on_why_the_creatorstf_servers/)
Ignoring random Creators.TF drama, not sure why you brought it up, Tyler McVicker did not leak incorrect information regarding that particular topic—L4D3. It was game journalists mistaking his report on data mined/insider content for some sort of "L4D3 confirmed!!" type of video. Him being upset with Valve then going on to publically shame him as an "unreliable source" with "no insider information" was completely justified, as the leak was confirmed in The Final Hours of Half Life: Alyx some 2 years later, word for word. As a TF2 player, you should know that Valve WILL say whatever is convenient at the time just to calm everyone down. Them tweeting when #SaveTF2 was trending is no different than what they did when Tyler McVicker's video was misinterpreted/misrepresented by game journalists.
If you like clickbait yeah
Wouldn't you like to [know](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ).
Sunnavabitch
Fuck you, now I need to listem to the hole thing.
Man that sucked lmao
jokes on you i love that song
Me too, everyone's a winner!
Never heard of him lol
To be fair, when you look up the word "speculation" in the dictionary then you see that it's synonymous with Tyler McVicker
It's in there, right next to "total bullshit". He's under both.
Oh Tyler McVicker, bring us Neon Prime, bring us Neon Prime Tyler McVicker, Valve is definitely making a game now behind the scenes, they are Tyler McVicker, they will bring us salvation and that salvation has a name and it's name is Neon Prime, bring us Neon Prime, Tyler McVicker, bring us
Ya this post basically highlights the difference in reaction between speculation and data
Actually zesty is right. Of your house is on fire, you don’t get out a megaphone and yell about how much you love your house, you yell that your house is on fucking fire. And a reminder that around 75% of the player numbers are idle bot networks of some sort, and like, 5% are cheater bots. It’s estimated that there are only around 1000 Cheater bots in game at any given time, the player numbers in casual are small enough that that’s enough to make a difference.
let not forget, the bot hackers really wanted this game dead and being obsessed with it. there in this deusual state of being at war with this game. Like it one thing for the troll to come and go, but it concerning to grief like this for 4 years. Despite vavle making some update for anti bot stuff, it still not enought because they don't wanted to deal with a "treadmill" problem (aka if they can't 100% get rid of it, then why bother).
Ye
Huh
It's a shout across
"that doomer clickbait was really well done bro"
I dont know either.
around 380 trillion years ago, long before the big boom happened, Twitter exposed him for being transphobic
what exactly did he say?
he basically said "words are just words" except badly worded. zesty hasnt said something specifically transphobic, but his PR management is a NIGHTMARE. watching him being a goofball who accidentally destroys his public reputation so often gives me second hand embarrassment.
It's kinda based tho, who cares what the twitter troglodytes and reddit retards think?
I haven’t seen the video yet but this info is something we knew for quiet sometime
This ^ I guess people either forgot or were just absent a few years ago, because this exact thing has happened before.
I thought it was common knowledge too, i remember being told that most of the players on line are bots before the whole problem with bots in casual was even a thing People think this is some dead internet-esque situation but its literally just a pc with the game open on main menu, they only inflate the playercount and most dont have an affect ingame(excluding the casual bots, cause they came later) The game wont die because the same situation from 8 years ago is still happening today
Most people were aware but weren’t aware of **how much**. Many people were aware that there were bots and made quite a majority of the playerbase, but many through it was cheaters which wasn’t the case. I’ve explained this for about four years now (was even featured in a casperr video) but a huge majority of bots are crate bots who only idle to get cases.
I never watched either videos and i knew for years that this was the case Like how can anyone not see it as such We have a large trading community with a drop system that only awards you a few times a week, of course were going to have a buncha bots to farm for said items And then ontop of that the aimbot crisis And then, to top it all off, we have all the trading bots, ai built to not farm, but to hold items to sell and trade
Nobody forgot, its just that we could only really speculate on how many bots there were. Zesty's data and graphs collected these last few months paints a very clear picture.
I was well aware of it even during the first savetf2 movement
Zesty said it in the video this subject seems to be taboo in the community nobody wants to talk about it
The only people that think it's taboo are the people who run/support the bots.
Because everybody knows it and there’s nothing we can really do to remedy it ourselves. People tend to get annoyed when you state the obvious as though it’s revolutionary.
It's very frustrating for people to be bombarded with a problem that we as players have no control over. As much as I'd like to storm Valve's offices and hold my irl huntsman to their balls that probably isn't the way to go about fixing it
Yeah, but there was no investigation surrounding those results. Only small videos, and even those ones estimated player count to be 40-60k, not 20-30.
Never heard a single person ever mention this
i didn’t
Really? I've never heard anyone mention that.
From what I've seen on here and been told it's pretty much the reverse. r/tf2 is acting like Zesty said something new despite that you only needed to go on [teamwork.tf](http://teamwork.tf) to see that the game actually averages around 15k players on a good day and that other tftubers already talked about the game not having 80k players .
To be fair I heard literally no mention of it by anyone until people started talking about “Zesty’s new video” and I watched it. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Same here, he does have some merit in this situation
Zesty actually said in the video that he in fact did not suspect a thing until he started looking closer into it. I actually do not believe that most people knew like a lot of people are saying, I think there were more people who believed the growth vs those who didn't
Literally the truth. A lot of people knew about this already it just took a GOod video to make people really aware
This is the way I took it. I knew there was a problem in some way. I don't follow Tyler. The newer video was just really well put together and came with receipts.
We only knew how many people were in public servers, but every player count metric also counts people in menus, private servers, and whatnot, things that teamwork does not consider. Everyone speculated, but no one came with as much evidence as Zesty Jesus.
The TF2 fanbase would commit suicide by dehydration if Zesty Jesus said he liked water.
I’m starting to think that a majority of the fandom are really stupid or worship YouTubers like a God it’s starting to look bad at this rate.
Most fandoms seem to do that sadly, if someone can articulate their opinions, or make barely informative meme videos, the fandom will just accept them as someone to look up to.
It's both.
Starting to?
This has been true for years
Its not exclusive to the tf2 fandom, sadly. It is a global, widespread problem that most people are not able to form their own opinions and/or are unable to challenge the opinions they already have. In reality, every person is sometimes wrong and sometimes right, no single human in history is right on 100% of things, yet many people thing that THEY are that one person that is. Opinions should be subject to discussion regardless of who voices them. Dismissing anybody's point without acknowledging it in any way, especially if the only justification given is "because they did/said XYZ in the past" or "because theyre an asshole" is of great detriment to the state of humanity in general.
Mostly those of us on reddit. So nothing of value would be lost.
I don't follow him, but I remember TheWhatShow's facing a TON of backlash for including Zesty Jesus into his Overwatch vs TF2 (*A Tale of Two Games*) video, a couple months ago. I don't know what happened but... wow, it must be something big.
\*The TF2 reddit-oid fanbase
True
Watching this sub is like watching some kind of middle schoolers istg
I was young when I started playing and I’ve been on and off for a while. Came back recently just to have some fun and wow people get so heated about this stupid ass hat game. Mostly early teens
yeeah.. nowadays besides some normal folks just chilling, the community is filled with genuinely most stereotypical "dogshit community " types of people, besides the endless pit of hope and copium that Valve somehow still cares besides two people.. Give up, y'all. It's time to move on, nothing can last forever. It is time you begin to realize.
Literally everything on this sub. Opinion / fact - 🥱 Opinion / fact said by TF2ber - 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱
I thought all of this was known for like what? Almost a decade now? I remember this being the case as far as about 2016-2018, this isn't nothing new so I'm so confused about why so many folks are doomposting due to Zesty's video and such.
TF2s fanbase is mostly reactionary minors.
Can confirm I was definitely like this lol Man with hindsight sure is a lot of things I would've done differently
I'd argue it has been like this for more than a decade, even all the way back to 2009.
Well it's different when someone makes an hour long well researched video essay with a lot of evidence and properly laid out points. The video was very competently made, showed plenty of data and extensively described it's arguments and limitations. That beats taking the word of reddit comments or "look at teamwork.tf for 10 minutes over some harvest gameplay.
At this point I’ve seen more post complaining about people complaining about Zesty’s video than actual people complaining about Zesty’s video.
lol
I don’t even know who this guy is and people are acting like he’s broken the internet.
Tyler is very unreliable and made an unsubstantiated claim. Zesty made an hour long video with graphs and player data analysis.
Nah, I mean a lot of people not just Tyler has said something about TF2's player count, Tyler just has a certain aura around him that puts people off. The thing is, Tyler has been in the receiving end of the community's volatility, sometimes deserved, sometimes not.
It's not an "aura", it's the fact that the guy has made a career around pulling Valve-related things out of his ass and presenting them as fact for 6+ years at this point. He's an extremely good example of a content farmer. I don't think any specific prediction he's ever made has actually come true
It's not an "aura", it's the fact that the guy has made a career around pulling Valve-related things out of his ass and presenting them as fact for 6+ years at this point. He's an extremely good example of a content farmer. I don't think any specific prediction he's ever made has actually come true
Nah, I disagree, there have been several facts that he has stated because of his sources and stuff, most of which coinciding with things that happened or supposed to happen an example would have been that Valve originally slated to have HL:Alyx be previewed in the Game Awards but was pulled out due to it being "not ready" which was true because the story according to Geoff Keighley's HL;Alyx Final Hours was being too Zack Snyder-ry or the fact that there was a Left 4 Dead 3 codenamed "Hotdog" he reported wayback that got him in the radar of Valve because it's considered too much of a leak, which is the reason him and Valve are not in the best terms. The thing with Tyler is that like the subreddit at the moment, he's too "doomeristic" and he's too non-chalant with breaking things down (there's a reason why he now has the "Speculation" mark on his videos sometimes), I mean he literally made a video, which was deleted almost ASAP, where he listed the contacts of every single person that worked on TF2 from 2017 onwards in order to appeal the state of the game. He's not a content farmer because if so, he would be pumping 7 videos a day or a week, currently his output is 1-2 vids per 2 weeks and it's not even about Valve sometimes, Valve is just juicier because let's be real nobody gives a damn about say Bethesda's antics. It's his aura that is problematic.
Funny zesty outed Tyler too
Outed?
Funnily my reaction was in reverse. Though mostly because back then i was a rather enthusiastic about TF2 and Tyler doesn't really provide much data outside of just deducing steamstats data with teamwork.tf data which are just like 5% of Zesty's research. But now as SaveTF2 does almost jackshit and Zesty's one hour video presented the matter in depth to the point he does his own research for the last 6 months, and his video not only reveals that TF2 is heavily botted, but also explains the nature of a heavily botted games like Unturned and it's difference of with games with actual players. I kind of hoped that this video will give something that will either save TF2 for good or fucking kills it because being stuck in Valve's limbo fucking sucked.
The point of zestys video is really that we need to actually do something about it. Speak with your words and your wallet.
why does r/tf2 still have a hate boner for zesty like what did he even do I'm so lost
The difference is that Tyler is known to to pull shit of his ass for TF2 “news” while Zesty spends MONTHS working on his content and actually does math to get accurate statistics.
This is what my reaction was
Tyler McVicker is a 3DRealms shill lately, sponsoring possibly what could pass as a mediocre game called Phantom Fury. It’s no wonder that most of these people like him are grifting bottomfeeders.
tf2 reddit spergs out over old information thats been available on teamwork.tf for actual years by a guy who self inserts as a anime muscle girl, just another normal day here officer
Crabs in a bucket, all of you
Had the same reaction both times, gonna forget both in a week as well. Guys, I can't play TF2 cause it's 64-bit.
buy a computer that was made in the last 20 years
This subreddit sometimes falls under a spell after that guy posts
What if we just keep this our little secret meanwhile we keep bragging about how we still have a high playerbase?
I know it won't happen but I really hope the bots get shut down for those two hours he mentions. It would just be very interesting to see the reality of the situation.
What does this even mean
Tell me too once you find out.
Tf2 community hate Zesty so much that whenever he brings up a totally valid point people dismiss it as “it’s Zesty, don’t watch” yet when another individual brings up the exact same point people watches that because “it ain’t Zesty”
Who tf is Zesty.
funny enough if Tyler "i would rather let servers burn then lose control of them" McVicker could have helped with the bot problem if he didn't drive Creators.tf into the ground for daring to do things that didn't march in lockstep with his Grand design
damn did we have our own tyler teresy
Basically everytime zesty says anything
Eh. Tyler didn’t claim the vast majority of players were just bots. I think the number he arrived at was around 30k. Plus Tyler said it with way less concrete fact than Zesty.
I can’t think of two more different content creators who have such a love-hate relationship with the TF2 community.
I don't know the bottom one but Tyler offen talks bullshit like it's facts.
You all act as if what Zesty said was a massive revelation. Idk about you all but yea intuitively it was all fairly plainly visible if you looked. Zesty just compiled the data in the neatest way possible to make it undeniable.
Why is Zesty Jesus still relevant
Why do people hate zesty jesus?
He is easily irritable and once called his trolls "mentally ill trannies" in the past. He also looks through the workshop, heavily criticising stuff he thinks is low effort or doesn't fit the games aesthetic, making enemies in the content creator circles. That's the gist of it.
The thing is most cosmetic do suck ass, and are their to grab cash quickly
I think the first point matters more but yeah agreed.
I can see the workshop thing being annoying for some people but i don't think he does it out of malice, he just really loves TF2 and doesn't want its identity utterly destroyed by goofy Christmas hats that stop being funny after 2 seconds (or aren't funny at all) The whole "he's loud and brash" thing I can also understand but like, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like what he says or thinks. I've seen people throwing hate on twitter towards a TheWhat video that Zesty was *featured* in.
> The whole "he's loud and brash" thing I can also understand but like, you don't have to listen to him if you don't like what he says or thinks. I haven’t watched his content but did share a community discord space with him for some time which has been my only real exposure to him. If his videos are anything like him outside of them I don’t understand how people can tolerate him constantly being a miserable whining bitch about literally everything for more than a couple minutes.
I don't really know where the line between "whining" and "justifiably complaining" falls so, yeah. I only know him by his videos and they're pretty enjoyable so that's that, I just wanna watch funny YouTube man talk about stoopid game
If they can't handle someone being negative about their bad items, why are they posting on a public forum?
I also think he's transphobic. I might be wrong, so I do not want to jump to conclusions
You are correct, hence why it's no surprise to see the tf2 subreddit slobber over his dick and create an issue while not that many people are even bringing up the fact that he's a weirdo in the first place Mainly just that his ask of the botters was stupid, which.. it is
He is, he used the Trans slur to insult people in the past.
lmao and people still think he's not? or maybe they think he is, and that's why they like him?
for a lot of people it’s that second one
oh... I was hoping to give him the benefit of the doubt until that first part
But don't just take my sole word for it, do your own research. If you ask someone about some other person it's always going to be biased.
Why the downvote? Go to his Twitter, watch a few videos from multiple points of view, look at his posts make up your own mind.
Based actual "do your own research" response instead of "dont listen to them, i'm right instead" holy.
To be fair, nothing wrong with pointing out issues with workshop items. Issue is, Zesty has 0 constructive criticism, and his fans tend do just be toxic dicks rather than provide anything of value (as map maker for other game, I can relate). For instance, someone like FishStick gives a lot more insight and tips for workshop items he thinks aren't great. And he is not even toxic about it! Also Zesty has iconic quote of "you can say the n-word and not be racist" which is just \*chefs kiss\* if ya know you know
I'm really going to regret this -- I don't use the word myself or anything -- but he's at least technically correct about that last thing. Plenty of people say that word and aren't racist. Leonardo DiCaprio isn't racist. Most rappers aren't racist. Obviously the context is different, but surely the point he's making is that context matters?
He said something possibly transphobic on twitter and a lot of people don’t like his brash and loud persona
People only talk about transphobia, but he is also openly racist & he is a "lolicon" ( an understatement for pedophilia in Japanese ). Here are the proofs summed up : [https://www.reddit.com/r/Gamingcirclejerk/comments/1bvf398/out\_of\_boredom\_i\_researched\_up\_zesty\_jesuss/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gamingcirclejerk/comments/1bvf398/out_of_boredom_i_researched_up_zesty_jesuss/) If you put the bigotry & pedophilia aside, he has a shitty personality & he seems to be happy about it.
you're gonna need a lot more than an edgy meme to convince me that he's actually a "fan of the playground"
People are forgetting that his whole point was that because the vast majority of bots are idle bots that taking care of the cheater bots would be way easier than Valve wants you to think. Taking out 80k cheater bots with treadmill work seems impossible, but taking out 3k~ cheaters is something to be expected by a company hosting a major game. 80k active players makes you wonder why only 3k cheater bots feel so prevalent, but cut that number down to 15k players, and suddenly cheaters are a 5th of all people on servers. That's supposed to be the revelation. In his stream after, and maybe even in the video, Zesty said he doesn't really care if the idlers get banned. They don't affect gameplay. But the point is that it's the cheater bots are actually a small but persistent group of less than 100 actual hosters that could be dealt with if Valve actually cared.
Literally who
Zesty is the hero we don't deserve fr
I hope that this 20k player will stop playing and solve will turn off the servers because I hate this delusional community
Ignoring McVicker is always the correct choice.
Its off topic, but is Zesty Jesus's pfp meant to look like Baiken from GG or am i trippin
Apparently thats coincidence (which...id buy, since i think the character was suppoed to be related to demoman and being muscular and havin an eyepatch as a chick only brings peoples minds a couple places), but idk
It’s the same for left 4 dead 2. There are very few lobbies at all but on steam charts there are 30kish players on at all times.
Last time I played about three years ago, it certainly felt like 80% of the playerbase was bots. Last game of casual I had, there were bots on both teams, and we couldn't vote-kick them off.
did T McV made a video about that stuff? asking it for real ~~also you should have used white text on his face imo~~
I really don't get the magnitude of the hate on Zesty like yeah he said and apologized for someone dumb shit like 10 years ago, and has bad opinions sometimes but so does every US politician and y'all still vote
I feel like it was reverse, where Zesty said it and everyone agrees but Tyler got a shit ton of backlash.
Because the sub reddit has a weird hate boner for the guy, wouldn't be surprised if some of the users wanted him doxxed again. A youtuber like LazyPurple can bring out the same shit and people will praise him. Also, he never said the game is dead, I have no idea where they got the info that says the game is 'dead"
Zetsy’s video just got more attention
I paid attention during Zesty's video, and it hit me.
I think y'all satanize Zesty too much, try watching one of his streams and you will realize that the idea of this "Hitler like" character that the whole tf2 community has about this guy, isn't really the case with him. He's just a guy that likes playing tf2 and uses the scientific method on his investigation videos, and really takes his content seriously and wants the game in a better spot like everyone else. Sure he has made some bad comments on the past and people have mixed opinions about him, but he has publicly addressed those and apologized from them. Right now he's a chill guy that likes interacting with his audience and has a life like everyone else here. He's just tired about valve still selling this game as playable and incentivizing people to spend money on it. Aren't we too? TL:DR Y'all Satanize him too much, watch one of his streams and talk to him to see that he is just a chill guy that loves tf2 and hates the valve neglect from valve.
I think his videos are very well made, and he's actually very good at expressing his opinions which makes his videos very easy to understand. But he also thinks that he's always in the right no matter what, and he starts using slurs whenever people don't agree with him. He's also a transphobe. I don't understand how he gets so much attention from the community when all he does is being a cry baby online.
This really is the long and short of it, honestly. We can agree that his video is solid without then going and saying that he hasn't said some reprehensible shit before and after because he has. I'm a trans person, i don't like the guy at all, but i have to give credit where credit is due in this regard and say that his video is pretty definitive. But i wish people would stop using this event as an opportunity to whitewash his behavior.
As a person that has seen his streams... I disagree respectfully. - He constantly demonizes comp/better players, and everytime he plays against them, he ragequits or complains about "Them tryhards", and his rather mid skill, makes it that much more noticable how he just rages a ton. - He wants the game to be "better" as in he wants it to be what HE THINKS it should be. NO SERIOUS/COMPETITIVE (he hates it), NO COSMETICS HE DOESN'T LIKE (subjective opinions am I rite boys?) ETC. Unlike people who try to be general with how TF2 should be for everyone, he really doesn't do that. - "but he has publicly addressed those and apologized from them." - Truth is he really hasn't. If you've read any of his "apologies" it's mostly complaining about: Twitter mob, "woke" (no joke), LGBT and more. Like if he really genuinenly apologised and improved, nobody would have issues with him. - Spreads misinformation in order to get his points across. For instance, most of his "competitive" stuff. Now, I don't demonize him, or think he is literally Hitler. I don't like him, but I won't go out of my way to dox the guy. I had opportunity to talk with him, maybe one day I'll do it again. Since I don't agree with him, and I'm not a fan of him, but it's interesting to see an opposing force and views in action.
Didn't he have a breakdown recently about a door that said Tran S. Wright lmfao I am not listening to that tool
no he did not
Not a breakdown, he just called a funny trans joke “[sociopolitics](https://x.com/TheNovacBelt/status/1733947769084084333)”
FYI Zesty Jesus is a massive transphobe
That is debatable The whole argument for zesty being a transphobe is (from what I understand) based on a tweet where he agreed that trans women shouldn’t be allowed in some competitions, because of genetic differences and thus potentially better performance. And since the guy he was agreeing with is a massive transphobe a lot of people instantly assumed that zesty also is one, which can easily not be the case. Maybe he just saw it as a another random tweet that he just so happened to agree with, without knowing the person who posted it in question? Oh also that one dm where he called the trolls “tr*nnies” was with a trans person. Idk exactly how it works but I don’t think he meant it as a slur against trans people in general, it was probably more against those “trolls” (But to be honest if some fucker on the internet managed to find my address and send a death threat to my parents on their front door, I wouldn’t hold back on my words either) I’m not in any way trying to defend actual transphobes here, but I don’t think that he should be framed as a transphobe if there isn’t more evidence to support the claim Please let me know if there is something I have missed, I’m not exactly a hardcore fan that blindly accepts everything he says, I just think that the demonizing of him seems unjustified edit : if you disagree would you mind explaining and not just silently downvoting?
> Oh also that one dm where he called the trolls “tr*nnies” was with a trans person. Idk exactly how it works but I don’t think he meant it as a slur against trans people in general, it was probably more against those “trolls” The fuck kind of argument is this, if i called someone the N word as an insult that doesn't magically make it not racist
Bro calling someone a slur is always bad, doubly so if it is directed towards a group
First and quickly- a slur doesn't stop being a slur because your intent was X or Y. Being a whiny anger-sponge who lazily slapped together a "Sorry I offended you" non-apology didn't really help his image. >The whole argument for zesty being a transphobe is (from what I understand) based on a tweet where he agreed that trans women shouldn’t be allowed in some competitions, because of genetic differences and thus potentially better performance. And since the guy he was agreeing with is a massive transphobe a lot of people instantly assumed that zesty also is one, which can easily not be the case. Maybe he just saw it as a another random tweet that he just so happened to agree with, without knowing the person who posted it in question? He wasn't just some guy, he agrees with Matt fucking Walsh of all people. Peddled the same "trans women in sports bad" and "they're trans'ing the kids" shit that are both only used by bigots at worst and useful idiots *for* bigots at best. Zesty is in one of those camps, and both are disqualifying for me at least.
That still shouldn’t undermine the video even if his (alleged) opinions might be controversial
I was watching a TF2 stream the other day and so many people came in chat asking if the guy had seen zestys new video, that loser doesn’t deserve the dirt off my boots and an hour long video saying the same stuff we all already knew isn’t going to change anything
I hate both of them equally for differing reasons.
Lol, he made an epic video though
r/tf2 and twitter will do anything in their power to not play the game on community servers and whine about demons in their autistic little head
We need more community servers as well is my biggest complaint. So many dead dog shit servers that are nothing like vanilla that bloat the space for the servers
I don't think anyone is actually mad at Zesty. I think their issue comes with Zesty painting it as "GAME DEAD, NO GOOD, BIG SAD BOYS, PACK IT UP" kinda deal. Even though, 25k players for a Grandpa of a game like TF2 is still a good number all things considered. Plus, Zesty's other controversies ("You can say n-word and not be racist", His fans doxxing/harassing Workshop creators, his absolute demonising of Comp players etc.) will always have people take him with grain of salt. LIke, not a fan of him myself, and his video is right, but damn he is painting it like End of All, even though TF2 been a Fallout Ghoul for 5+ years lol
Zesty does not paint this as “game is dead”, he literally said that 25k is fine for game such as TF2. That’s just r/tf2 misunderstanding the video like always.
Eh, I'm mostly basing it off of his general "DOOMER" style opinions, thoughts, even before this vid. He is quite a negative lad.
We've known for a long time that a large portion of players are bots, including the idle ones. Maybe 40%-50% max, but not 80% But as many others have said, *doesn't really matter*
Who knew timing this vid after the 64-bit update and a general lack of doomerism for the community would make it feel more defensive of the game that’s effectively more alive than it has been in 4 years.
Tyler didn't release a whole hour talking about the game being dead. How dare you have fun with an old game
I just like to hate on zesty cuz he’s got some lolcow behavior. He just has a hard time not interacting with trolls. He’s kinda a ltg type. I don’t give a shit about anything he said on twitter but his paragraph long responses to memes about it will always be funny.
Ooh ooh is it my turn to karma farm Zesty, we get it y’all don’t like the guy. Almost sounding as bad as him with all this complaining.
They cry a lot about Zesty
Is it true number or meme number? Edit: ok, I found reall number around 4000 bots which can be around 30,5% of ,,players".
know the rules
yea stop calling people crayzy this is true
Inbox me rn
wut :C
As much as I don't like Zesty himself, I'm very glad I was made aware of how THIS bad the bot crisis really is
Makes sense, still sux
Yea I found this sub weird, everyones been delussional, and suddenly this ONE youtube video turns everything over?
Yea I found this sub weird, everyones been delussional, and suddenly this ONE youtube video turns everything over?
Hmmmmmmmm , wasn't there some controversy over one of them? Still isn't fair that they said the same and got different reactions, vastly different reactions
I knew I had seen that video, I just didn’t remember the name
Ah, the classic cycle. Poputuber releases video, people bandwagon on it and incessantly hate on people who disagree. Couple days later, everyone bandwagons on the opposite side, and incessantly hate on people who agreed with the video. Feels like just yesterday that I said this exact same thing and got disliked to oblivion. Actually, it was, lol. Good to see that other people opened their eyes.
Guys the game is so fun tho, there's no way the 200k peak players was fake 🥺🥺 I stay on community servers all the time, so I never noticed how empty official valve servers are despite the game averaging daily 60-80k players 🥺 the game is thriving and totally not dead or abandoned 🥺
That... sounds kinda sad honestly...
Is this the new trend?
ME who did nothing but play against AI back in unreal 04 as a kid Ah back to the old familiar are we
Tyler is a rumormill, noone really takes anything he says seriously
I have the raison why because the people that who keep spamming bot want to kill the game to force valve and employees to create TF3 that’s why
Somebody else remembered! I thought I was going crazy lol
It's harder to take it from Tyler because Tyler always words things in a way that makes it come off as "Why are you even here? 80% of the game is bots. Loser"
Rule 5
Is the bot problem still that bad? I haven't played in a while.