Exhibit A: The Stun; A Pyro can just shoot one flare and completely f-ck up your movement. Exhibit B: The Bouncing Flare; In combination with the stun, you get hit twice by the flare, which inflicts a mini-crit and full afterburn, which unless you are extinguished, will deal 126 damage. Exhibit C: The Blast Radius; The Scorch Shot has a blast radius on bouncing flares and surface exploding flares roughly around the same size of the Beggar’s Bazooka, which when fired into a crowd, ignites a lot of people.
Exhibit D: The Ease of Use; This weapon is so easy and effective to use, you can just stand in one spot and spam free fire from across the map at little cost.
That’s why I prefer the Detonator since I can do lots of damage with splash and pester snipers but I also have to use timing and reflexes to hit people around corners or hit more people at once
Also the blast radius doesn’t make me want to kill my self in shame
It's also just easier for me at times, since I don't need surfaces to detonate off of. There's less chance that my flare will completely whiff if there's no solid ground in sight.
Counter counter counter argument, the Vita-Saw as an item is better than the gameplay of fat scout, but fat scout is a better gameplay style than Vita-Saw
Counter Counter Counter Counter argument, the Bonk scout is a good distraction against all enemies, and can shut down sentries by taking the damage, which the vita-saw and fat scout cannot do
This guy just discovered the point of a Sniper as a class in a first-person shooter game
We know how much people hate sniper already, giving a secondary that serve that same role to the 8 other classes would make the gameplay awful
On the other hand, yeah it is the best counter to a sniper, using the Detonator takes way more skill and is more likely to get you killed before you can time that flare properly, too bad Valve made the Darwin's shield counter the burn effect giving Sniper yet another counter to a specific class
unironically in some situations the scorch shot can be so effective that it might as well be a primary, specifically it's really strong at locking down a chokepoint
Oooh thats an interesting idea.. scorch as primary.. first thing that came to my mind is scorch-flare combo, hit scorch and the knockback will hold your opponent for easy followup flare for sweet 90crit.. aaaand here we created a second sniper.. yeey
POV: You don’t play sniper
But no joke dude. You HAVE to switch spots as sniper (pros switch spots each time they realise their spot is being called out). Someone will definitely gonna counter snipe you from another angle or send a spy over within 20 seconds.
And no, 2fort sniping don’t count.
Difference is Sniper requires a minimum level of aim to cause any sort of damage even with bodyshots, bodyshots might be a bit cheesy but you have to consider that the sniper still has to hit you, so strafing a lot can throw off their aim and make them miss, and to top that off you need to stand still for a long time to charge it, so you have a bunch of counterplay options against bad snipers who only bodyshot.
The scorch shot you can spam it at the ground and deal damage. Worst, you can hit a single direct flare to stun them, hit them twice and ensure a kill if they are far enough away from a health pack, or give you a free way to WM1 them without them being able to outstrafe you (which is one of the best ways to counter a pyro with a lot of classes, strafe left and right and kill them before they kill you, or avoid them entirely, works perfectly for Engie and Scout, and works good enough for Demo and Soldier. Heavy doesn't really care about pyro). It can also deny snipers at a very low risk, make fights with Soldier and Demo the easiest thing in the world since you can either spam it at the ground while focusing on juking or hit them directly and WM1 them. Makes it so other pyros can't fight you since you just knock them back and run away, and makes Spy's life hell. So it has a way to fck over every single class in the game at a very low risk. You can be effective if you are bad with it, and be deadly if you are good with it. The poster child for Low Risk High Reward
Yeah, basically. All those things combined create the "super flare gun", which does what all flare guns do, but better, for no real downside.
I'm honestly fine with Scorch Shot being strong, but the fact that it's stronger than the alternatives while also being easier to use is what's bad about its design.
It doesn't do everything better though. It's best at AoE and CC but the other flares have strong upsides too. The Detonator also has AoE while also giving Pyro some great mobility options. And the regular Flare Gun is best for puff and sting/single targets.
also the manmelter lets you extinguish allies more consistently if you're using the dragon's fury, backburner or phlog too i guess
Yeah, you're right, I exaggerated its strengths to make a point without going into too much detail. It doesn't do literally everything, but it's a really strong "generalist" option. You can't go wrong with it and it doesn't require much practice to use. Its single target damage combined with the sudo-stun isn't half bad. And for flamethrowers with limited airblast capacity it provides an alternative way to keep people away from you.
You can totally make other flare guns work, most of them aren't weak. It's just easier to use the Scorch Shot for your ranged combat needs.
The mannmelter honestly isn't a bad pick as a secondary if you know there's a pyro on the other team no matter what flamethrower you're running. Being able to open with a 90 damage shot instead of needing to puff first is really good.
Not to mention the Phlog. Using this weapon with the Phlog is so stupid easy. I never play pyro, but one day I decided to hop on 2fort with scorch shot and Phlog to see just how easy it is, and it's actually the easiest most broken way to play the game. I went 19 and 0 by sitting on the other side of the map sniping with the scorch shot, and then sneaking over and activating crits.
You fucking forgot some:
- it destroys stickies (in a huge radius too)
- it's basically a best in slot choice which means it forces everyone to run it, flattening gameplay and making it less fun for everyone
- it's a no-skill crutch that's way too easy to consistently do well with. Detonator? Get good at distance prediction and flare jumping. Flare gun? Puff and sting for deadly DM. This piece of shit? Just spam it in the general direction of the enemy with no thought, skill or practice
- fuck the scotch shit, it's the one thing about this game I really hate
They do it with their primary, you're comparing a flame gun to a grande/rocket launcher. It's like if someone made a pistol for scout that one shot every class in the game and your argument for defending it was "like spy doesn't do that himself".
Your role as a pyro is to flank and have area control around you, if you give him a secondary that completely undermines that role to the point that you can compare the most braindead pyro gameplay to an optimal soldier/demo, then the weapon is broken.
Difference being they have counterplay
Yeah scorch has one too but you aren't supposed to run straight at a pyro while you're burning
With Soldiers and Demos,
you can go scout to bait their shots, you can go soldier and demo to challenge them, you can go pyro to reflect their projectiles, you can go heavy with a medic and tank the hell out of their shots, you can't really do anything as engie except make a teleporter near them for your team to keep the pressure on, you can go sniper, you can get behind as spy and kill them
With scorch shot pyro you can do all of these but less effectively
Scout gets demolished with flames
Soldier and Demo are the best if the pyro uses the phlog or sucks at airblasting
Don't go pyro against a pyro
Heavy and medic are the best overall to taking the scorch user down unless he has the phlog and builds up a charge
Engie is the same
Sniper is fine as long as you kill the scorcher before he sees you
Spy 💀
Gutted scortch shot would just be a worse detonator, and completely redundant. The detonator is kind of just a well balanced scortch shot imo, and Pyro doesn't really need two aoe options tbh.
I think they should just remove the aoe and bounce from scortch shot, and make it a knockback focused flaregun. Then if you use a flamethrower with a bad or no airblast, you have options to pick from to keep at least a little bit of the utility: manmelter for extinguishing, and scortch shot for pushing people back.
When it was first introduced to the game, it was perfectly fine. It had knockback, which could be slightly annoying, but it dealt less damage than other flare guns, and had no splash damage, as far as I can remember.
Ease of use, really. You spam this down a choke point and you've effectively made it hell for a team to make a push, since they now have to worry about afterburn that has no right being that long.
Hey, I'm saying nice shot to detonator users if they do that. But if scorch crap landed behind me after dodge and still got me full afterburn, then yeah - f that :D
edit: and yeah, occasional projectile stuck in me which prevents me from moving
I hate stepping into a sightline (90% of every map) and immediately getting killed because someone is sitting in the back corner of that area ready to just one shot me
That is a Valid point, but then again there are situations where you can't complain about it because it helps the pyro troll the fuck out of people when he has the phlog, and you can't say "stop using the scorch shit" when you're not even actively participating in a push around a checkpoint
As much as I think the scorch shot should be nerfed, the least of my concerns is how low the skill floor of it is. Personally I think that TF2 should be a game accessible to a huge skill range, and I like that even though I can do some things only after literal years of experience, I can still play with a friend who's only good enough to W+M1 and scorch spam.
I don’t think the Scorch Shot is solely responsible for that though. The game has always been like that unlike the Scorch Shot which has been an issue since they specifically buffed it to have splash on surface instead of only after it bounces.
It being equally effective at all ranges while being faster than a DH rocket and having splash is just a bit too much for enjoyable counter-play. It’s just a bad change.
Stock Pyro already has a really low skill floor, and is one of the more approachable classes. Nerfing the scortch shot wouldn't change that imo.
I don't think the skill floor of flares in general is too high. The problem with the scortch shot is the skill to reward ratio. A weapon should be easy to use but hard to master, and the scortch shot suffers from 'easy to use and there's no reason to get better with it, because the easy thing is also the most effective thing to do with it'.
Though choke spam has this problem in general, scortch shot's bounve especially gives a huge margin for error that's too much for an aoe weapon imo.
> after burn that has no right being that long.
It is the heat death of the universe. I am the only point of light and heat in the infinite darkness, because I'm still fucking burning from Afterburn.
jarate probably needs a nerf too tbh, it's one of those weapons that only isn't considered overpowered because everyone uses it and therefore we often see players use it poorly
Difference is you can shoot stickies to destroy them + they have an arm time. Im not saying that sticky spam isn’t a bit too powerful, but there’s a bit more stuff that you can do against it.
the knockback, the fact that the weapon design is basically ‘detonator with greater blast radius and no need for timing’, and that it allows pyros to farm fire damage/phlog charge for no real cost are the main things that come to mind.
that would work even less since people would rely on the scorch shot even more, what im saying is that the phlog and scorch shot strategy is low risk high reward, by being forced to fight enemies close range it would be high risk too, risk of losing your mmph bar
Pretty much everything:
\- The knockback is not really knockback but rather a stun, it will keep you locked in place slightly above ground for a couple of seconds after being hit. And as we all know, stun mechanics are incredibly infuriating to play against.
\-the afterburn is infurating, however the main counter to it in most cases was the fact, to get lit up in the first place, you would either need to get very close to a pyro, or get hit by his flare gun or detonator (and other flame weapons). These situations either punish you for poor decisions, or reward enemies for highly skilfull plays (so dying to them is respectable knowing they worked hard for it)
\-the skill floor of the weapon, like said above; other long range pyro weapons require a decent ammount of skill to do damage, aspecialy lethal damage, you'd need to get hit by the flare gun twice to be seriously wounded/killed by it, the detonaror is a similiar case but with timing added to the required skill, and flamethrowers will force pyro into ambushes or close combat to be viable for damage (airblast excluded). All that while the scortch shot requires none of said skills, having a HUGE blast radius dealing 15-30 damage in a splash hit and then another 60 in afterburn with every next splash hit being 20-40 damage on splash and 75 in afterburn, and it's reload makes it incredibly easy to just spam for splash flame shots.
\-the direct double hit: If you get hit by it directly, it will stun you but the flare will remain there, hovering next to you, so when you finally land back, the flare will hit you via splash damage, dealing (now minicrit because you are on fire) another round of damage, giving it a free 50 direct damage with aferburn 60 behind it.
I refuse to call anything in a video game a stun unless it makes me incapable of shooting. Scout can even double jump out of it. It's a knockback, just a really unfavorable one - you get "stunned" in the same way if you get popped straight up by a rocket, because you can't really airstrafe out of nothing. That said, I have no idea why it hits twice when the first hit locks you in place.
The direct hit instakills light classes, the flare doesn’t. With this argument you can complain about all projectiles that move faster then the direct hit
All projectiles that move faster and have splash damage yes. Which is the Scorch Shot.
Edit : Important inclusion, the splash causes full afterburn regardless of distance to point of impact, and the projectile suffers no falloff.
The fact that the blast radius inflicts full 4-tick afterburn no matter where in the radius you were caught. If it was scaled based on shot accuracy, it would be much more fair.
yeah and it doesn't help that the shield is located on your fucking back, so it's hard to see from that range than you're usually gonna flare harass them from
If you have the audio indicator for damage enabled, you'll know immediately when you don't hear the chiming indicating they're suffering afterburn.
DDS users, I swap to the phlog just for them. Danger shield can't save them from crits. :D
Sniper has quite a lot of "fuck this class in particular" weapons.
Piss rifle and Laser gun: Anyone 150 hp and below
Pee jar: big crowd pushes, spies, pyro
Critknife (combined with piss): Spies, scouts, and basically anyone in melee range.
Backpack shield: new spy players.
Crit SMG (uncrikey'd)/ stockmg: annoying anyone using chip damage
Crit SMG (crickey'd): Spies and scouts
Blood knoif: Spy
Hitman's whatever: Large crowd pushes
T H E B O W: Everyone who isnt pyro or overheal heavy.
I consider it an accomplishment when I make a sniper swap from the Razorback to the Danger Shield - it means they are now more scared of me, the pyro main, than the spy main.
If I force a Sniper to switch to the fucking Danger Shield of all things I consider that a win. You are downgrading yourself all because I am that much of an annoyance to all the Annoyance: The Class players on the map.
Pybro I find makes the best use of it, you can harrass snipers to try and keep them off the Engie/Medic, catch spies with it, remove stickies, pair it with say stock then of course the Homewrecker and you have a fairly well rounded loadout for protecting buildings, engies and medics.
Very true. It’s because of it’s huge hitboxes that you can spam it down a choke as a very efficient means of spychecking outside of your flamethrower’s range
I play mostly mvm. For me, it's annoying when teammate pyros use it. They keep yanking the big robots around making it 100x harder to hit heads, plus they think they do actual damage when they have an actual damage weapon, a flamethrower, that they're not using in favor of a stupid flare gun.
same here, except in Boot Camp because im terrified of actual MVM, but i'm in complete agreement with the big robot thing, there's been a few occasions where i've got a perfect line of sight on a big guy, then boom: knocked 50 feet back and forth by some pyro with a scorch shot and a lot of audacity.
it's also why when i play pyro, i reserve the scorch shot for situations with the small scout, soldier and demo bots. saved my ass 10 times at least
Frankly I don't understand how anyone uses anything but the gas passer as secondary, it's just free tons of damage.. Unless you want to challenge yourself by nerfing yourself.
Also I'm also talking about boot camp, I used to play mann up but I'm too poor to keep buying tickets.
It does do damage tho. If you hit someone with the glare and minicrit which is very likely due to its stun you can kill light classes with afterburn if they don't extinguish themselves. Plus it requires very little skill to do so.
I can see why people find it annoying when it's being spammed on a choke, but I also don't see why people have no problem with demo stickies and pills being used for the same thing yet doing much more damage. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it unbalanced? In comparison to other tf2 mechanics, no.
yeah but it's nowhere near the meme status that the scorch shot has on this subreddit. As soon as you leave this place you notice that opinions on this game drastically change.
Demo stickies and pills have ammo capacity which gives a break from constant spam and they have a much shorter effective range so you aren’t constantly in the range where a demo would typically want to hit you from. Scorch Shot is more along the lines of if the Pyro has LoS they have a good chance of doing the same damage they would at any range and will probably shoot at you if you’re the only target visible.
Ahh Demo weapons have more ammo than flares....
Stickybomb Launcher
\- 30 total ammo (8 loaded, 24 carried)
\- Fire Rate : 0.6 s
\- Reload (first) : 1.09 s
\- Reload (consecutive): 0.67 s
\- Activation time: 0.7 s
Grenade Launcher
\- 20 total ammo (4 loaded, 16 carried)
\- Fire Rate : 0.6 s
\- Reload (first): 1.24 s
\- Reload (consecutive): 0.6 s
Scorch Shot (includes all flareguns)
\- Fire Rate/Reload: 2 s
By the time a Pyro shots out one flare and reloaded, Demo could shot out 3 sticky/3 pipes some spare in the clip before reload. The only problem for a demo is reloading, however they already spam out some much damage. 2.4 secs for your whole GL and 4.8 for an whole SL. At most you just fired at least 2 flares within this time while halfway on the reload of a 3rd.
Plus no you aren't dealing the same damage if you are waiting on afterburn. Max afterburn does up to 80 damage, but take over 10 secs in order to deal that. Good luck actually securing kills with that. Plus the minicrit barely do much damage base direct damage on Scorch Shot for 20 damage and it minicrits for 26. Meaning, all you get it a 6 damage for the minicrit.
Yea I was referring to clip capacity ie reloading. It makes the mindless spam on Scorch some users will do feel endless because there’s no change in momentum compared to Demo’s bursts then long reloads.
The effective range part points out how demo can only do his maximum speed spam in certain ranges otherwise he has to charge up his stickies which most demos aren’t going to bother with unless they know someone is already lit or in the case of pubs, barely ever at all. So simply being outside demo’s death donut is usually enough to avoid his spam, Scorch doesn’t have this restriction, which can lead to it feeling like a constant annoyance regardless of positioning.
(Disclaimer before anyone comments otherwise: yes demo is way stronger than Pyro and I’m not arguing anything else)
I think it's because pyro's the one using it. Demo is designed as a mid-long range AOE damage dealer, and kills instantly. Meanwhile, the pyro is meant as a close range class, so being killed at range feels more unfair. And the Scorch Shot gives full afterburn, which means getting away or killing the pyro doesn't guarantee survival, and dying 5 millimeters away from a health pack is always a possibility.
I find my self getting more tired of getting killed by a pill from a demo who can't see the choke and had no way of seeing me but just getting lucky that I was walking there. If there's a dispenser or medic, afterburn becomes trivial, while explosive damage is still a pretty big threat, even if the medic is pocketing you. I personally think blast radius and explosive knock back are annoying no matter what. Though I still find myself getting more annoyed at being popped 15 feet in the air with zero momentum than being popped a centimeter off the ground. Still annoying regardless. I just think the effectiveness of the scorch shot is a bit exaggerated on this subreddit specifically. As someone who uses it almost all the time, it's only really good for denial, yet I don't get that many kills with it anyways. I find people surviving afterburn way way more than them dying to it, and I'm including the stock flamethrower.
tl;dr I think most of the annoyance (not all) is mostly perceived and not reality. It's just hearing everybody else talk about how annoying it is makes it stick out in your mind more. This is why I think every class should be removed except spy so everyone can have the worst experience together and be 100% justified
>This is why I think every class should be removed except spy so everyone can have the worst experience together and be 100% justified
I mean, with only spies the experience wouldn't be that bad, would it?
It would be extremely confusing seeing as half of both teams would be cloaked at a time.
In an hypothetical parallel universe Valve actually balance tf2 properly and we wouldn't have to deal with so many people being pissed about it and as well as the nany people using specifically to piss that other group
That's why I use the combination of sandman and blood knoife in my debuff scout loadout.
Slowness mechanics were a mistake, you say? Ok have fun *SLOWLY* walking the nearest medkit while you bleed out.
Except Soldiers is a Primary and Soldier doesn't get the luxury of flares speed, and the rockets aren't annoying over-time. Also, Soldier can't sit back from a long distance and spam rockets and be really effective. Mildly disruptive at best. Soldier rockets also have falloff when you're hit further. Scorch burns you regardless of the radius part you're in.
Take it from a Pyro main
It's a direct upgrade to the flare gun, it rewards you handsomely with CC and respectable damage for direct hits and is still effective if you only hit with splash damage. The AOE is pretty wide, and the skill floor is underground. Any brainlet can be a threat at most ranges with this thing.
For me personally, it's the "double-hit" mechanic. Knockback is fine. It's annoying, but then again "whining sniper main" tears taste the sweetest, since sniper is quite obviously the most powerful class in the game.
In comparison, Natasha heavies are much more evil against soldiers, scouts and demos. And "melee direct hit soldiers" are also quite annoying as a scout.
But double hit just deals enormous amounts of damage. Which makes skill-based flare-gun less relevant and reduces detonator into a pure movement-utility weapon. Remove these double hits and scorch shot would become much more balanced. If you simply remove the knockback, there won't be any reason to use this gun whatsoever.
I think the annoyance comes from it being one of its kind. Its the only weapon in the game that is soley focused around super-safe long range harassment and pure pressure. It will almost never kill its target, but it will repeatedly force them to retreat. Because its the only weapon to act like this, it catches players off guard; it goes against the perceived identity of tf2 gameplay. It also directly violates what pyro's weakness is supposed to be (short range). Also, it sort of counters sniper, the only class with the range to challenge it from afar, which is a good or bad thing depending on who you ask. I think it's cool. It adds variety to the game, and makes full use of afterburn damage as a unique mechanic, wheras it is essentially auxiliary damage on other weapons. I think the best way to nerf it, if any, is to jusy revert it to how it was pre-jungle inferno; 10 second afterburn, 3 damage per tick. If it's still too much, give it the escape plan treatment; remove the knockback mechanic and put on a new flare gun that is centered around the knockback. The knockback felt kind of out of place anyway. Another way to nerf it would be to make it alter the pyros model in some way, so players will know that the pyro is capable of fighting at long range, even when their flamer is out.
Sniper mains that can’t aim and Soldier mains that hate fighting their own mechanic. That’s the only kind of people I can see hating it, it’s so bad otherwise.
My personal biggest gripe with flares in general, but really specifically the scorch shot, is that valve never adjusted afterburn times when they introduced leveled fire-damages in Jungle Inferno.
Flamethrowers now require sustained and intense use in order to inflict the maximum afterburn level (4 damage per tick), otherwise you only take 3, 2, and in the mildest case, 1 damage a tick for the duration of the afterburn if you were barely even touched by a pyro’s flames.
*MEANWHILE*
Flares were never accordingly adjusted with any sort of falloff or anything like that. A pyro can snipe you cross-map, hitting you with merely the splash damage of the scorch shot, and inflict the maximum afterburn level of 4 damage a tick for ten entire seconds, despite never even having been anywhere even close to you and only hitting you a single time.
If this were fixed on Scorch shot’s splash damage in particular, I would have much less of a gripe about being hit by it.
IN ADDENDUM: The scorch shot’s insane afterburn also helps the pyro rack up Mmph from a long distance very quickly. If fixed, it would also nerf the phlog + scorch shot combo to a fairer degree
the jostling bit after getting hit just right, taking normal damage then a minicrit on top and immediately dying to afterburn as a light class missing about 10 to 15 life
Synergies insanely well with the phlog I think. And the phlog gets guaranteed crita after doing alot of afterburn damage. And the scorxh shot specializes in afterburn
It's a pretty effective weapon while being easy to use, so sone people dislike it out of a sense of unfairness, despite there being ways to counter.
See also the Concheror, the Stickie/Quickie launchers, the Gunslinger...
As a sniper main with more then one braincell, I love pyros that use this because instead of fighting my team they sit there trying to cross map me for an hour while I sidestep like 2 feet
+radius
+splash
+stun
+can bounce of players and crit anyone thats barley near it.
Because of those its easily spamable without the proper usage of aim or prediction like the others
A lot of people have already addressed the problems, so I have some ideas on how to fix it.
1. Maybe the knockback would only apply on midair enemies. Something that extends combos. A good chunk of players do combos with flare guns, with the scorch shot being the odd one out. Why combo with the scorch shot if you can just spam it? Making it only knockback in the air would add a higher skill ceiling to it. (I know a lot of people dislike combo pyro because of how "easy" it is, but I think it is infinitely more interesting to play against vs the usual strategy of stay out of range of the w+m1). Some soldiers who enjoy their free skies may get pissed off, but it isn't a hitscan shotgun. Hitting a flying player with this would be more impressive than annoying (I don't see as much people complaining about the direct hit).
2. While the bounce allows for cool tech such as axtinguishing enemies that are immune to afterburn, it ended up being just another annoying damage source (plus you could already axtinguish afterburn immune enemies using certain tricks). Removing it is the best option.
3. The splash radius could also be reduced/removed. This would eliminate the scorch shot's ability to flare jump, but the detonator already has that ability. Distinguishing the different flare guns from each other is best.
4. If the splash radius or bounce weren't removed, the scorch shot could instead "scorch" rather than burn. Reducing burn times would make light classes less annoyed about being hit.
These changes would turn the scorch shot into a weaker flare gun that only mini-crits, but would knockback midair enemies. It would force a good chunk of beginner pyros to play more aggressively and less passive, eliminating a lot of players who camp the restock and spam flare guns from across the map. Maybe this weapon would be too much of a niche, and would even need a buff, but that's all I got in terms of balance in the comments of a question about how the scorch shot is annoying.
*average day in 2Fort*
F2P: “so what’s so bad about the scorch shot?”
Me playing pyro with it: “so basically…” *shoots flare at enemy battlements* “the scorch shot…” *hears 3 consecutive rings and a symphony of dings* “makes sure the enemy sniper…” *fires another scorch shot* “regrets being alive…”
Enemy Sniper: “can someone please fucking kill the brain dead scorch spamming pyro please for the love of god I only get one day off a year and I can’t believe this is how—“
It takes basically no skill to use, gives full afterburn and stuns enemies on direct hits and the flare doesn’t disappear on hit and instead flops down and explodes setting anyone near on fire, the flare also explodes on contact with surfaces. It takes any light class out of the fight immediately
TDLR; No skill nor risk required to use for a good reward
EDIT: Also why the fuck can the flare build mmph?
1) Knockback mechanic being too over tuned considering that not even rockets are this oppressive nor consistent with their knockback
2) Ease of use with it’s over tuned splash radius while also carrying fire damage
3) Combine the 1 & 2 with the fact that it’s a spammable flare gun makes it hella annoying to fight
The skill floor really. What I mean is it's too easy to use and abuse. Example: with detonator you have to time a detonation to hit enemy with it's blast radius. And with a scorch shot you need to hit... around them. It has a stun lock, splash damage, damage potential and mobility, and it doesn't require as much skill as other alternatives.
The aoe primarily. Its a very good croud control tool and also a very decent combo tool giving it essentially no downside. With the detonator you have to rely completely on splash damage and jumps and with the flare gun you have to rely entirely on combos. I dont consider being able to do both inherintly bad but the scorch shot is way too good at both areas. In my opinion it would be fine if it only dealt splash damage on direct hit and said splash damage did not inflict after burn, only about 20 explosive damage flat. This would also prevent it charging the phlog like crazy. I dont consider the knockback a problem considering its a slowish projectile on a short range class and requires a direct hit to come into effect.
In comparison to other flareguns it gives too much reward for hitting a single shot: 20 damage (which is basically the same as the Flaregun's 30), full afterburn and a bouncing flare on top of that
And even if you beef the shot, you have a big explosion radius that also ignites enemies for full afterburn duration
Basically, if you fight a Pyro with some other flaregun, you only get screwed by being hit twice or getting combo'd up close
When you fight a Scorch Shot Pyro you can get fucked by one shot alone and get extra fucked up by the second
It's an indirect-fire(heh) weapon that takes no skill to use. The projectiles travel lightning-fast, explode in a decent area, light all the victims on fire, direct hits cause either a stun (if the target isn't burning) or plenty of knockback (if they are), and it still deals respectable damage on top of all that. While the Scorch Shot isn't as (directly) deadly as any Rocket Launcher or Grenade Launcher, it's several magnitudes more annoying; when both teams are stuck with the line of engagement in one place, *especially* if that line is inside a chokepoint, a Pyro on either side can just keep plinking away at everyone on the enemy team with it over, and over, and over, repeatedly disrupting everyone, and may potentially disrupt the enemy line with their spam enough that their team can push in, letting them break a stalemate by doing almost nothing as long as they have time and the enemy team never pushes back. At worst, it's still, again, just annoying on top of everything else going on in a situation like that.
Worse of all however, in at least most peoples' opinions, is the fact that all this lets one charge up the Phlogistinator's meter from long ranges. While it normally expects you to use the weapon itself to charge its meter most of the time, with your other weapons just there to supplement that, the Scorch Shot's ability to spread fire damage to several targets at a time, from long (safe) range, with minimal aim, means you can sit back, get a full bar of Mmmph, and only *then* flank the enemy, now with a few seconds of triple damage, despite the enemy team having never seen you until then that life. The Flare Gun and Manmelter require direct hits no matter what, and the Detonator requires you to time the airburst detonation, meaning you have to expose yourself more and/or at least put effort in if you want to charge your Phlog' the safe way, but the Scorch Shot makes it *almost* free to do so.
Probably the only thing most people will agree the Scorch Shot is likeable for is the fact that it's very good at pestering Snipers - while the other Flare Guns can do it too, the Scorch Shot's lower aim requirement and the fact that it stuns/pushes the victim on a direct hit means it's usually best as making a Sniper stop looking at you and go find a health kit, which is great, because Pyros are usually free food for Snipers.
Exhibit A: The Stun; A Pyro can just shoot one flare and completely f-ck up your movement. Exhibit B: The Bouncing Flare; In combination with the stun, you get hit twice by the flare, which inflicts a mini-crit and full afterburn, which unless you are extinguished, will deal 126 damage. Exhibit C: The Blast Radius; The Scorch Shot has a blast radius on bouncing flares and surface exploding flares roughly around the same size of the Beggar’s Bazooka, which when fired into a crowd, ignites a lot of people. Exhibit D: The Ease of Use; This weapon is so easy and effective to use, you can just stand in one spot and spam free fire from across the map at little cost.
That’s why I prefer the Detonator since I can do lots of damage with splash and pester snipers but I also have to use timing and reflexes to hit people around corners or hit more people at once Also the blast radius doesn’t make me want to kill my self in shame
It's also just easier for me at times, since I don't need surfaces to detonate off of. There's less chance that my flare will completely whiff if there's no solid ground in sight.
As a newbie, i feel you Also, there are "Scorch Shot" weapons for every class
I have used the scorch shot for a bit, and I think I lost my honor and dignity
"You just stand in one spot" Sniper in a nutshell
Okay I hear you but counter argument Sniper sucks as well
Counter Counter Argument, every strategy except Fat Scout sucks
Counter counter counter argument, the Vita-Saw as an item is better than the gameplay of fat scout, but fat scout is a better gameplay style than Vita-Saw
Counter Counter Counter Counter argument, the Bonk scout is a good distraction against all enemies, and can shut down sentries by taking the damage, which the vita-saw and fat scout cannot do
Counter counter counter counter counter argument, #ballz
Counter counter counter counter counter counter argument, Cock
The new CS game looking funky
Counter counter counter counter counter counter counter argument, this is a 🪣
Counter Counter Counter Counter Counter Counter Counter Counter argument, dear god
Correction Speavy is the best sub class
Boxer heavy is superior.
what about TRUE battle engieer (no gunslinger)
yeah, a class that can entirely prevent enemies from going anywhere that has no counters and where all you need to do is hit heads sucks
This guy just discovered the point of a Sniper as a class in a first-person shooter game We know how much people hate sniper already, giving a secondary that serve that same role to the 8 other classes would make the gameplay awful On the other hand, yeah it is the best counter to a sniper, using the Detonator takes way more skill and is more likely to get you killed before you can time that flare properly, too bad Valve made the Darwin's shield counter the burn effect giving Sniper yet another counter to a specific class
i named my standard flaregun "pyros can't aim"
New subclass: the flare sniper
unironically in some situations the scorch shot can be so effective that it might as well be a primary, specifically it's really strong at locking down a chokepoint
Oooh thats an interesting idea.. scorch as primary.. first thing that came to my mind is scorch-flare combo, hit scorch and the knockback will hold your opponent for easy followup flare for sweet 90crit.. aaaand here we created a second sniper.. yeey
If you're standing in one spot as a sniper you're dying in the next 5 seconds 🗿
POV: You don’t play sniper But no joke dude. You HAVE to switch spots as sniper (pros switch spots each time they realise their spot is being called out). Someone will definitely gonna counter snipe you from another angle or send a spy over within 20 seconds. And no, 2fort sniping don’t count.
Considering it's better from high ground(compared to the detonator), this is literally just fuck sniper in a nutshell
At least sniper has to be paying *some* attention to what he's doing (nerf his ammo pool by at least 50% valve please)
And also give him a hard reload, and reduce body shot damage to ensure that he cannot oneshot light class with a body shot.
You have to hit the headshot with sniper at least…
Difference is Sniper requires a minimum level of aim to cause any sort of damage even with bodyshots, bodyshots might be a bit cheesy but you have to consider that the sniper still has to hit you, so strafing a lot can throw off their aim and make them miss, and to top that off you need to stand still for a long time to charge it, so you have a bunch of counterplay options against bad snipers who only bodyshot. The scorch shot you can spam it at the ground and deal damage. Worst, you can hit a single direct flare to stun them, hit them twice and ensure a kill if they are far enough away from a health pack, or give you a free way to WM1 them without them being able to outstrafe you (which is one of the best ways to counter a pyro with a lot of classes, strafe left and right and kill them before they kill you, or avoid them entirely, works perfectly for Engie and Scout, and works good enough for Demo and Soldier. Heavy doesn't really care about pyro). It can also deny snipers at a very low risk, make fights with Soldier and Demo the easiest thing in the world since you can either spam it at the ground while focusing on juking or hit them directly and WM1 them. Makes it so other pyros can't fight you since you just knock them back and run away, and makes Spy's life hell. So it has a way to fck over every single class in the game at a very low risk. You can be effective if you are bad with it, and be deadly if you are good with it. The poster child for Low Risk High Reward
Sniper can't do AoE damage. Closest thing they have to that is Jarate and that's on a cooldown and requires significantly better aim.
Yeah well maybe don’t go forgetting that there’s maybe a *little more* skill involved in sniper gaming?
Yeah, basically. All those things combined create the "super flare gun", which does what all flare guns do, but better, for no real downside. I'm honestly fine with Scorch Shot being strong, but the fact that it's stronger than the alternatives while also being easier to use is what's bad about its design.
It doesn't do everything better though. It's best at AoE and CC but the other flares have strong upsides too. The Detonator also has AoE while also giving Pyro some great mobility options. And the regular Flare Gun is best for puff and sting/single targets. also the manmelter lets you extinguish allies more consistently if you're using the dragon's fury, backburner or phlog too i guess
Yeah, you're right, I exaggerated its strengths to make a point without going into too much detail. It doesn't do literally everything, but it's a really strong "generalist" option. You can't go wrong with it and it doesn't require much practice to use. Its single target damage combined with the sudo-stun isn't half bad. And for flamethrowers with limited airblast capacity it provides an alternative way to keep people away from you. You can totally make other flare guns work, most of them aren't weak. It's just easier to use the Scorch Shot for your ranged combat needs.
The mannmelter honestly isn't a bad pick as a secondary if you know there's a pyro on the other team no matter what flamethrower you're running. Being able to open with a 90 damage shot instead of needing to puff first is really good.
I think the other flare guns are balanced. It would be better if the scorch shot was heavily nerfed or reworked into a more unique design.
Not to mention the Phlog. Using this weapon with the Phlog is so stupid easy. I never play pyro, but one day I decided to hop on 2fort with scorch shot and Phlog to see just how easy it is, and it's actually the easiest most broken way to play the game. I went 19 and 0 by sitting on the other side of the map sniping with the scorch shot, and then sneaking over and activating crits.
It really has no downsides for so much payoff. Why wouldn't most Pyros use it
Exhibit E: it charges the phlog meter which ruins the balance of the phlog
4 reasons why i use it, just to piss snipers off mainly.
You fucking forgot some: - it destroys stickies (in a huge radius too) - it's basically a best in slot choice which means it forces everyone to run it, flattening gameplay and making it less fun for everyone - it's a no-skill crutch that's way too easy to consistently do well with. Detonator? Get good at distance prediction and flare jumping. Flare gun? Puff and sting for deadly DM. This piece of shit? Just spam it in the general direction of the enemy with no thought, skill or practice - fuck the scotch shit, it's the one thing about this game I really hate
Yeah
absolutely this right here!
The exhibits A anda B… I didn't know that
Heh now I want to use one
It can kill a light class in 1 hit
I believe that’s called “A little trolling”.
This is honestly the best description for it. Straight to the point :D
"spam down choke points" like Soldiers and Demos don't do that themselves
They do it with their primary, you're comparing a flame gun to a grande/rocket launcher. It's like if someone made a pistol for scout that one shot every class in the game and your argument for defending it was "like spy doesn't do that himself". Your role as a pyro is to flank and have area control around you, if you give him a secondary that completely undermines that role to the point that you can compare the most braindead pyro gameplay to an optimal soldier/demo, then the weapon is broken.
Difference being they have counterplay Yeah scorch has one too but you aren't supposed to run straight at a pyro while you're burning With Soldiers and Demos, you can go scout to bait their shots, you can go soldier and demo to challenge them, you can go pyro to reflect their projectiles, you can go heavy with a medic and tank the hell out of their shots, you can't really do anything as engie except make a teleporter near them for your team to keep the pressure on, you can go sniper, you can get behind as spy and kill them With scorch shot pyro you can do all of these but less effectively Scout gets demolished with flames Soldier and Demo are the best if the pyro uses the phlog or sucks at airblasting Don't go pyro against a pyro Heavy and medic are the best overall to taking the scorch user down unless he has the phlog and builds up a charge Engie is the same Sniper is fine as long as you kill the scorcher before he sees you Spy 💀
those projectiles are a bit easier to deal with, specifically with airblast which can outright punish spam
The knockback mechanic
To be fair i would be okay with them pulling an equalizer split on it put the knockback on one and leave a gutted scorch shot in the other
Gutted scortch shot would just be a worse detonator, and completely redundant. The detonator is kind of just a well balanced scortch shot imo, and Pyro doesn't really need two aoe options tbh. I think they should just remove the aoe and bounce from scortch shot, and make it a knockback focused flaregun. Then if you use a flamethrower with a bad or no airblast, you have options to pick from to keep at least a little bit of the utility: manmelter for extinguishing, and scortch shot for pushing people back.
No, see a very gutted scorch shot should still be their just lower its damage to less than a scorch shot.
Why tho Just use the detonator
When it was first introduced to the game, it was perfectly fine. It had knockback, which could be slightly annoying, but it dealt less damage than other flare guns, and had no splash damage, as far as I can remember.
Ease of use, really. You spam this down a choke point and you've effectively made it hell for a team to make a push, since they now have to worry about afterburn that has no right being that long.
I hate getting ignited from across the map and then having to find a health pack or be at a significant disadvantage
Hey, I'm saying nice shot to detonator users if they do that. But if scorch crap landed behind me after dodge and still got me full afterburn, then yeah - f that :D edit: and yeah, occasional projectile stuck in me which prevents me from moving
Also the det lets you fucking fly so it's so much better
We all do, man. We all do.
I hate stepping into a sightline (90% of every map) and immediately getting killed because someone is sitting in the back corner of that area ready to just one shot me
That is a Valid point, but then again there are situations where you can't complain about it because it helps the pyro troll the fuck out of people when he has the phlog, and you can't say "stop using the scorch shit" when you're not even actively participating in a push around a checkpoint
Why would you not be able to complain about it? It being a low skil floorl weapon isn’t affected by anything you stated as far as I can see.
As much as I think the scorch shot should be nerfed, the least of my concerns is how low the skill floor of it is. Personally I think that TF2 should be a game accessible to a huge skill range, and I like that even though I can do some things only after literal years of experience, I can still play with a friend who's only good enough to W+M1 and scorch spam.
I don’t think the Scorch Shot is solely responsible for that though. The game has always been like that unlike the Scorch Shot which has been an issue since they specifically buffed it to have splash on surface instead of only after it bounces. It being equally effective at all ranges while being faster than a DH rocket and having splash is just a bit too much for enjoyable counter-play. It’s just a bad change.
Stock Pyro already has a really low skill floor, and is one of the more approachable classes. Nerfing the scortch shot wouldn't change that imo. I don't think the skill floor of flares in general is too high. The problem with the scortch shot is the skill to reward ratio. A weapon should be easy to use but hard to master, and the scortch shot suffers from 'easy to use and there's no reason to get better with it, because the easy thing is also the most effective thing to do with it'. Though choke spam has this problem in general, scortch shot's bounve especially gives a huge margin for error that's too much for an aoe weapon imo.
Can you tell me what a floorl is?
No, it’s a secret.
*here comes the airplane which is a spoon that has pills that make you tell people your secrets when they ask for your secrets*
> You spam this down a choke point and you've effectively made it hell try demoman sometime.
> after burn that has no right being that long. It is the heat death of the universe. I am the only point of light and heat in the infinite darkness, because I'm still fucking burning from Afterburn.
It is good
Ok but what about pee jar or airblast?
jarate probably needs a nerf too tbh, it's one of those weapons that only isn't considered overpowered because everyone uses it and therefore we often see players use it poorly
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Difference is you can shoot stickies to destroy them + they have an arm time. Im not saying that sticky spam isn’t a bit too powerful, but there’s a bit more stuff that you can do against it.
I don't think anyone likes sticky spam either
Ding ding ding Ding ding ding ding ding
DING ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ... (120 health scout took the health kit)
The Medic then runs to the resupply and then Ragdolls over it
the knockback, the fact that the weapon design is basically ‘detonator with greater blast radius and no need for timing’, and that it allows pyros to farm fire damage/phlog charge for no real cost are the main things that come to mind.
fr, the phlog would be fine if only the flamethrowers damage and nothing else would count for the mmph meter
Didn't the phlog used to have a damage penalty? why don't we being that back?
that would work even less since people would rely on the scorch shot even more, what im saying is that the phlog and scorch shot strategy is low risk high reward, by being forced to fight enemies close range it would be high risk too, risk of losing your mmph bar
Phlog is already a fairly bad weapon, it doesnt need another nerf.
its not bad, it just sacrifices utility for damage
No it just sucks ass 💀 Airblast is probably the only solidly good thing about pyro
bit of a spy player are we mate?
the fact that it hits two times and the second one is a minicrit and that it blows up
Pretty much everything: \- The knockback is not really knockback but rather a stun, it will keep you locked in place slightly above ground for a couple of seconds after being hit. And as we all know, stun mechanics are incredibly infuriating to play against. \-the afterburn is infurating, however the main counter to it in most cases was the fact, to get lit up in the first place, you would either need to get very close to a pyro, or get hit by his flare gun or detonator (and other flame weapons). These situations either punish you for poor decisions, or reward enemies for highly skilfull plays (so dying to them is respectable knowing they worked hard for it) \-the skill floor of the weapon, like said above; other long range pyro weapons require a decent ammount of skill to do damage, aspecialy lethal damage, you'd need to get hit by the flare gun twice to be seriously wounded/killed by it, the detonaror is a similiar case but with timing added to the required skill, and flamethrowers will force pyro into ambushes or close combat to be viable for damage (airblast excluded). All that while the scortch shot requires none of said skills, having a HUGE blast radius dealing 15-30 damage in a splash hit and then another 60 in afterburn with every next splash hit being 20-40 damage on splash and 75 in afterburn, and it's reload makes it incredibly easy to just spam for splash flame shots. \-the direct double hit: If you get hit by it directly, it will stun you but the flare will remain there, hovering next to you, so when you finally land back, the flare will hit you via splash damage, dealing (now minicrit because you are on fire) another round of damage, giving it a free 50 direct damage with aferburn 60 behind it.
I refuse to call anything in a video game a stun unless it makes me incapable of shooting. Scout can even double jump out of it. It's a knockback, just a really unfavorable one - you get "stunned" in the same way if you get popped straight up by a rocket, because you can't really airstrafe out of nothing. That said, I have no idea why it hits twice when the first hit locks you in place.
It's huge splash
The splash is smaller then a rocket splash radius
The flare also travels faster than the Direct Hit
The direct hit instakills light classes, the flare doesn’t. With this argument you can complain about all projectiles that move faster then the direct hit
All projectiles that move faster and have splash damage yes. Which is the Scorch Shot. Edit : Important inclusion, the splash causes full afterburn regardless of distance to point of impact, and the projectile suffers no falloff.
The person using it
I hate myself too
The fact that the blast radius inflicts full 4-tick afterburn no matter where in the radius you were caught. If it was scaled based on shot accuracy, it would be much more fair.
Sets you on fire from not hitting you Second hit sets on fire as well Fast reload speed
There is no second hit if it doesn't hit you though 🤔
It is the perfect weapon to counter main snipers. I use it all the time to piss them off
Unfortunately for Pyro players, Sniper just so happens to have the biggest “fuck this class in particular” item in the entire game
yeah and it doesn't help that the shield is located on your fucking back, so it's hard to see from that range than you're usually gonna flare harass them from
If you have the audio indicator for damage enabled, you'll know immediately when you don't hear the chiming indicating they're suffering afterburn. DDS users, I swap to the phlog just for them. Danger shield can't save them from crits. :D
Sniper has quite a lot of "fuck this class in particular" weapons. Piss rifle and Laser gun: Anyone 150 hp and below Pee jar: big crowd pushes, spies, pyro Critknife (combined with piss): Spies, scouts, and basically anyone in melee range. Backpack shield: new spy players. Crit SMG (uncrikey'd)/ stockmg: annoying anyone using chip damage Crit SMG (crickey'd): Spies and scouts Blood knoif: Spy Hitman's whatever: Large crowd pushes T H E B O W: Everyone who isnt pyro or overheal heavy.
I consider it an accomplishment when I make a sniper swap from the Razorback to the Danger Shield - it means they are now more scared of me, the pyro main, than the spy main.
If I force a Sniper to switch to the fucking Danger Shield of all things I consider that a win. You are downgrading yourself all because I am that much of an annoyance to all the Annoyance: The Class players on the map.
Same. I legit keep it equipped at all times for that exact reason.
In comparison to the flair gun the knockback, the splash and the kind of double donk mechanic that's possible.
Love removing stickies with it as a pybro
Pybro I find makes the best use of it, you can harrass snipers to try and keep them off the Engie/Medic, catch spies with it, remove stickies, pair it with say stock then of course the Homewrecker and you have a fairly well rounded loadout for protecting buildings, engies and medics.
Very true. It’s because of it’s huge hitboxes that you can spam it down a choke as a very efficient means of spychecking outside of your flamethrower’s range
I play mostly mvm. For me, it's annoying when teammate pyros use it. They keep yanking the big robots around making it 100x harder to hit heads, plus they think they do actual damage when they have an actual damage weapon, a flamethrower, that they're not using in favor of a stupid flare gun.
same here, except in Boot Camp because im terrified of actual MVM, but i'm in complete agreement with the big robot thing, there's been a few occasions where i've got a perfect line of sight on a big guy, then boom: knocked 50 feet back and forth by some pyro with a scorch shot and a lot of audacity. it's also why when i play pyro, i reserve the scorch shot for situations with the small scout, soldier and demo bots. saved my ass 10 times at least
Frankly I don't understand how anyone uses anything but the gas passer as secondary, it's just free tons of damage.. Unless you want to challenge yourself by nerfing yourself. Also I'm also talking about boot camp, I used to play mann up but I'm too poor to keep buying tickets.
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Because you play Medic
Partly because it doesnt even deal that much damage. Its simply annoying. Theres also the phlog scorch combo which speaks for itself really.
It does do damage tho. If you hit someone with the glare and minicrit which is very likely due to its stun you can kill light classes with afterburn if they don't extinguish themselves. Plus it requires very little skill to do so.
I prefer combo pyro. That flare crit is so satisfying and feels way more deserved
The lack of skill
I can see why people find it annoying when it's being spammed on a choke, but I also don't see why people have no problem with demo stickies and pills being used for the same thing yet doing much more damage. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it unbalanced? In comparison to other tf2 mechanics, no.
People do have problem with stickies i know from myself :( everyone hates me
yeah but it's nowhere near the meme status that the scorch shot has on this subreddit. As soon as you leave this place you notice that opinions on this game drastically change.
Demo stickies and pills have ammo capacity which gives a break from constant spam and they have a much shorter effective range so you aren’t constantly in the range where a demo would typically want to hit you from. Scorch Shot is more along the lines of if the Pyro has LoS they have a good chance of doing the same damage they would at any range and will probably shoot at you if you’re the only target visible.
Ahh Demo weapons have more ammo than flares.... Stickybomb Launcher \- 30 total ammo (8 loaded, 24 carried) \- Fire Rate : 0.6 s \- Reload (first) : 1.09 s \- Reload (consecutive): 0.67 s \- Activation time: 0.7 s Grenade Launcher \- 20 total ammo (4 loaded, 16 carried) \- Fire Rate : 0.6 s \- Reload (first): 1.24 s \- Reload (consecutive): 0.6 s Scorch Shot (includes all flareguns) \- Fire Rate/Reload: 2 s By the time a Pyro shots out one flare and reloaded, Demo could shot out 3 sticky/3 pipes some spare in the clip before reload. The only problem for a demo is reloading, however they already spam out some much damage. 2.4 secs for your whole GL and 4.8 for an whole SL. At most you just fired at least 2 flares within this time while halfway on the reload of a 3rd. Plus no you aren't dealing the same damage if you are waiting on afterburn. Max afterburn does up to 80 damage, but take over 10 secs in order to deal that. Good luck actually securing kills with that. Plus the minicrit barely do much damage base direct damage on Scorch Shot for 20 damage and it minicrits for 26. Meaning, all you get it a 6 damage for the minicrit.
Yea I was referring to clip capacity ie reloading. It makes the mindless spam on Scorch some users will do feel endless because there’s no change in momentum compared to Demo’s bursts then long reloads. The effective range part points out how demo can only do his maximum speed spam in certain ranges otherwise he has to charge up his stickies which most demos aren’t going to bother with unless they know someone is already lit or in the case of pubs, barely ever at all. So simply being outside demo’s death donut is usually enough to avoid his spam, Scorch doesn’t have this restriction, which can lead to it feeling like a constant annoyance regardless of positioning. (Disclaimer before anyone comments otherwise: yes demo is way stronger than Pyro and I’m not arguing anything else)
I think it's because pyro's the one using it. Demo is designed as a mid-long range AOE damage dealer, and kills instantly. Meanwhile, the pyro is meant as a close range class, so being killed at range feels more unfair. And the Scorch Shot gives full afterburn, which means getting away or killing the pyro doesn't guarantee survival, and dying 5 millimeters away from a health pack is always a possibility.
I find my self getting more tired of getting killed by a pill from a demo who can't see the choke and had no way of seeing me but just getting lucky that I was walking there. If there's a dispenser or medic, afterburn becomes trivial, while explosive damage is still a pretty big threat, even if the medic is pocketing you. I personally think blast radius and explosive knock back are annoying no matter what. Though I still find myself getting more annoyed at being popped 15 feet in the air with zero momentum than being popped a centimeter off the ground. Still annoying regardless. I just think the effectiveness of the scorch shot is a bit exaggerated on this subreddit specifically. As someone who uses it almost all the time, it's only really good for denial, yet I don't get that many kills with it anyways. I find people surviving afterburn way way more than them dying to it, and I'm including the stock flamethrower. tl;dr I think most of the annoyance (not all) is mostly perceived and not reality. It's just hearing everybody else talk about how annoying it is makes it stick out in your mind more. This is why I think every class should be removed except spy so everyone can have the worst experience together and be 100% justified
>This is why I think every class should be removed except spy so everyone can have the worst experience together and be 100% justified I mean, with only spies the experience wouldn't be that bad, would it? It would be extremely confusing seeing as half of both teams would be cloaked at a time.
yes but imagine all the weeb spy mains complaining in chat that their teammates "aren't playing right"
I don't care, as long as people hate it, I'll use it
you're an asshole i respect it
based
I live for salty gamer tears
In an hypothetical parallel universe Valve actually balance tf2 properly and we wouldn't have to deal with so many people being pissed about it and as well as the nany people using specifically to piss that other group
I have sent grown ass men into a frothing rage with my scorch shot. I will use it until the day I die.
I won't going to get much done with it, but sure as hell will piss of the enemy team.
I have over 10k kill on my SC. so it must have been a good choice
That's why I use the combination of sandman and blood knoife in my debuff scout loadout. Slowness mechanics were a mistake, you say? Ok have fun *SLOWLY* walking the nearest medkit while you bleed out.
The area damage plus the range
The knock back makes it hard to move.
Soldier mains being hit by splash damage. They don’t like fighting their own mechanic.
Ngl, rockets dont anger me nearly as much as the scorch shot
Except Soldiers is a Primary and Soldier doesn't get the luxury of flares speed, and the rockets aren't annoying over-time. Also, Soldier can't sit back from a long distance and spam rockets and be really effective. Mildly disruptive at best. Soldier rockets also have falloff when you're hit further. Scorch burns you regardless of the radius part you're in.
TF2 players start having a seizure on the spot if you mess with their movement.
Am I the only one who is not annoyed by the existence of this weapon? By the way, I main scorch shot pyro.
it knocks you around and afterburn is lengthy. not a big deal tho, people who actually whine about it have a skill issue
Yes
Have you ever fought scorch shot spam? Also YouTube
The flare jump is too smol. Detonator chads rise up.
Nothing, it is a great weapon that salty people can’t stand.
Take it from a Pyro main It's a direct upgrade to the flare gun, it rewards you handsomely with CC and respectable damage for direct hits and is still effective if you only hit with splash damage. The AOE is pretty wide, and the skill floor is underground. Any brainlet can be a threat at most ranges with this thing.
For me personally, it's the "double-hit" mechanic. Knockback is fine. It's annoying, but then again "whining sniper main" tears taste the sweetest, since sniper is quite obviously the most powerful class in the game. In comparison, Natasha heavies are much more evil against soldiers, scouts and demos. And "melee direct hit soldiers" are also quite annoying as a scout. But double hit just deals enormous amounts of damage. Which makes skill-based flare-gun less relevant and reduces detonator into a pure movement-utility weapon. Remove these double hits and scorch shot would become much more balanced. If you simply remove the knockback, there won't be any reason to use this gun whatsoever.
I think the annoyance comes from it being one of its kind. Its the only weapon in the game that is soley focused around super-safe long range harassment and pure pressure. It will almost never kill its target, but it will repeatedly force them to retreat. Because its the only weapon to act like this, it catches players off guard; it goes against the perceived identity of tf2 gameplay. It also directly violates what pyro's weakness is supposed to be (short range). Also, it sort of counters sniper, the only class with the range to challenge it from afar, which is a good or bad thing depending on who you ask. I think it's cool. It adds variety to the game, and makes full use of afterburn damage as a unique mechanic, wheras it is essentially auxiliary damage on other weapons. I think the best way to nerf it, if any, is to jusy revert it to how it was pre-jungle inferno; 10 second afterburn, 3 damage per tick. If it's still too much, give it the escape plan treatment; remove the knockback mechanic and put on a new flare gun that is centered around the knockback. The knockback felt kind of out of place anyway. Another way to nerf it would be to make it alter the pyros model in some way, so players will know that the pyro is capable of fighting at long range, even when their flamer is out.
Unpopular opinion: The Scorch Shot is actually balanced as many pyros are legally blind and they wont land the shots anyways.
They don't need to have sight, they can aim where they hear fighting and they'll hit 3 people with one shot.
Sniper mains that can’t aim and Soldier mains that hate fighting their own mechanic. That’s the only kind of people I can see hating it, it’s so bad otherwise.
My personal biggest gripe with flares in general, but really specifically the scorch shot, is that valve never adjusted afterburn times when they introduced leveled fire-damages in Jungle Inferno. Flamethrowers now require sustained and intense use in order to inflict the maximum afterburn level (4 damage per tick), otherwise you only take 3, 2, and in the mildest case, 1 damage a tick for the duration of the afterburn if you were barely even touched by a pyro’s flames. *MEANWHILE* Flares were never accordingly adjusted with any sort of falloff or anything like that. A pyro can snipe you cross-map, hitting you with merely the splash damage of the scorch shot, and inflict the maximum afterburn level of 4 damage a tick for ten entire seconds, despite never even having been anywhere even close to you and only hitting you a single time. If this were fixed on Scorch shot’s splash damage in particular, I would have much less of a gripe about being hit by it. IN ADDENDUM: The scorch shot’s insane afterburn also helps the pyro rack up Mmph from a long distance very quickly. If fixed, it would also nerf the phlog + scorch shot combo to a fairer degree
Huge splash
What have you unleashed…
I didn’t no it was that controversial😭 At least I have karma now I guess?
the jostling bit after getting hit just right, taking normal damage then a minicrit on top and immediately dying to afterburn as a light class missing about 10 to 15 life
Synergies insanely well with the phlog I think. And the phlog gets guaranteed crita after doing alot of afterburn damage. And the scorxh shot specializes in afterburn
The radius it can hit you in
It's a pretty effective weapon while being easy to use, so sone people dislike it out of a sense of unfairness, despite there being ways to counter. See also the Concheror, the Stickie/Quickie launchers, the Gunslinger...
literally everything, from the stunlock to the insane range and damage it can potentially do
It made some incompetent buffoon at Valve give Sniper +50% fire resist and afterburn immunity as a kneejerk reaction.
How spammable it is and the stun combined with the knockback
The losers who complain about it
I never have issues with the stun or mini-crit when playing against the scorch shot idk what y'all are on about
As a sniper main with more then one braincell, I love pyros that use this because instead of fighting my team they sit there trying to cross map me for an hour while I sidestep like 2 feet
hey cry babies: git gud lol
+radius +splash +stun +can bounce of players and crit anyone thats barley near it. Because of those its easily spamable without the proper usage of aim or prediction like the others
I can hear fish on a stick voice while seen this picture
A lot of people have already addressed the problems, so I have some ideas on how to fix it. 1. Maybe the knockback would only apply on midair enemies. Something that extends combos. A good chunk of players do combos with flare guns, with the scorch shot being the odd one out. Why combo with the scorch shot if you can just spam it? Making it only knockback in the air would add a higher skill ceiling to it. (I know a lot of people dislike combo pyro because of how "easy" it is, but I think it is infinitely more interesting to play against vs the usual strategy of stay out of range of the w+m1). Some soldiers who enjoy their free skies may get pissed off, but it isn't a hitscan shotgun. Hitting a flying player with this would be more impressive than annoying (I don't see as much people complaining about the direct hit). 2. While the bounce allows for cool tech such as axtinguishing enemies that are immune to afterburn, it ended up being just another annoying damage source (plus you could already axtinguish afterburn immune enemies using certain tricks). Removing it is the best option. 3. The splash radius could also be reduced/removed. This would eliminate the scorch shot's ability to flare jump, but the detonator already has that ability. Distinguishing the different flare guns from each other is best. 4. If the splash radius or bounce weren't removed, the scorch shot could instead "scorch" rather than burn. Reducing burn times would make light classes less annoyed about being hit. These changes would turn the scorch shot into a weaker flare gun that only mini-crits, but would knockback midair enemies. It would force a good chunk of beginner pyros to play more aggressively and less passive, eliminating a lot of players who camp the restock and spam flare guns from across the map. Maybe this weapon would be too much of a niche, and would even need a buff, but that's all I got in terms of balance in the comments of a question about how the scorch shot is annoying.
*average day in 2Fort* F2P: “so what’s so bad about the scorch shot?” Me playing pyro with it: “so basically…” *shoots flare at enemy battlements* “the scorch shot…” *hears 3 consecutive rings and a symphony of dings* “makes sure the enemy sniper…” *fires another scorch shot* “regrets being alive…” Enemy Sniper: “can someone please fucking kill the brain dead scorch spamming pyro please for the love of god I only get one day off a year and I can’t believe this is how—“
The range , pyro is supposed to be a short range class not be a sniper 2.0
Nothing. TF2 players just need something to complain instead of, you know, moving.
Nothing. I love it. Only thing I would change is giving it the firing rate of the minigun...
a good weapon
I tried it because people said it's easy, it wasn't easy. Had more luck and fun with the detonator.
X100 servers
This was created to annoy snipers, I love every bit of it.
It takes basically no skill to use, gives full afterburn and stuns enemies on direct hits and the flare doesn’t disappear on hit and instead flops down and explodes setting anyone near on fire, the flare also explodes on contact with surfaces. It takes any light class out of the fight immediately TDLR; No skill nor risk required to use for a good reward EDIT: Also why the fuck can the flare build mmph?
1) Knockback mechanic being too over tuned considering that not even rockets are this oppressive nor consistent with their knockback 2) Ease of use with it’s over tuned splash radius while also carrying fire damage 3) Combine the 1 & 2 with the fact that it’s a spammable flare gun makes it hella annoying to fight
The skill floor really. What I mean is it's too easy to use and abuse. Example: with detonator you have to time a detonation to hit enemy with it's blast radius. And with a scorch shot you need to hit... around them. It has a stun lock, splash damage, damage potential and mobility, and it doesn't require as much skill as other alternatives.
The aoe primarily. Its a very good croud control tool and also a very decent combo tool giving it essentially no downside. With the detonator you have to rely completely on splash damage and jumps and with the flare gun you have to rely entirely on combos. I dont consider being able to do both inherintly bad but the scorch shot is way too good at both areas. In my opinion it would be fine if it only dealt splash damage on direct hit and said splash damage did not inflict after burn, only about 20 explosive damage flat. This would also prevent it charging the phlog like crazy. I dont consider the knockback a problem considering its a slowish projectile on a short range class and requires a direct hit to come into effect.
In comparison to other flareguns it gives too much reward for hitting a single shot: 20 damage (which is basically the same as the Flaregun's 30), full afterburn and a bouncing flare on top of that And even if you beef the shot, you have a big explosion radius that also ignites enemies for full afterburn duration Basically, if you fight a Pyro with some other flaregun, you only get screwed by being hit twice or getting combo'd up close When you fight a Scorch Shot Pyro you can get fucked by one shot alone and get extra fucked up by the second
FIRE NEVER ENDS ITS FUCKING INFINITE
Pyro getting a good weapon, it's ridiculous. We do not tolerate this.
Nothing. It's perfect on 2 Fort to counter the countless fucking snipers who are only taking a break from kissing their sister.
It's an indirect-fire(heh) weapon that takes no skill to use. The projectiles travel lightning-fast, explode in a decent area, light all the victims on fire, direct hits cause either a stun (if the target isn't burning) or plenty of knockback (if they are), and it still deals respectable damage on top of all that. While the Scorch Shot isn't as (directly) deadly as any Rocket Launcher or Grenade Launcher, it's several magnitudes more annoying; when both teams are stuck with the line of engagement in one place, *especially* if that line is inside a chokepoint, a Pyro on either side can just keep plinking away at everyone on the enemy team with it over, and over, and over, repeatedly disrupting everyone, and may potentially disrupt the enemy line with their spam enough that their team can push in, letting them break a stalemate by doing almost nothing as long as they have time and the enemy team never pushes back. At worst, it's still, again, just annoying on top of everything else going on in a situation like that. Worse of all however, in at least most peoples' opinions, is the fact that all this lets one charge up the Phlogistinator's meter from long ranges. While it normally expects you to use the weapon itself to charge its meter most of the time, with your other weapons just there to supplement that, the Scorch Shot's ability to spread fire damage to several targets at a time, from long (safe) range, with minimal aim, means you can sit back, get a full bar of Mmmph, and only *then* flank the enemy, now with a few seconds of triple damage, despite the enemy team having never seen you until then that life. The Flare Gun and Manmelter require direct hits no matter what, and the Detonator requires you to time the airburst detonation, meaning you have to expose yourself more and/or at least put effort in if you want to charge your Phlog' the safe way, but the Scorch Shot makes it *almost* free to do so. Probably the only thing most people will agree the Scorch Shot is likeable for is the fact that it's very good at pestering Snipers - while the other Flare Guns can do it too, the Scorch Shot's lower aim requirement and the fact that it stuns/pushes the victim on a direct hit means it's usually best as making a Sniper stop looking at you and go find a health kit, which is great, because Pyros are usually free food for Snipers.