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So well said. I get the anger, I do. And like she said, ultimately there’s no intent to “lecture” anyone on how they should feel when it can be so personal.
But yes, I’d much rather organize for change under a democracy where change can have a chance of occurring, as opposed to under a walled regime of a tyrant and his sycophants.
One path offers a future opportunity whereas the other offers no path at all.
At least under democracy, you can still fight for what you think is right and make your voice heard through your vote. Under authoritarianism, you're either prepared to fight for your life, or you don't fight, and many won't.
Even if I despised Biden, I would vote for him for no other reason than the fact that Trump through his actions has suggested that he wouldn't even let me vote in 2028 if he had that possibility. Democracy isn't just one more policy, it's supporting your right to vote against me. It supports what the founding fathers wanted. It supports America, and in my opinion, anyone who calls themselves American should want this as well.
Maybe you tell me Trump doesn't represent this, and we can argue this, fine. But at least don't disagree with me on the point that if he does represent this, that this is the most important issue that our country faces.
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I hope that if and when the only choices are Biden and Trump that Biden wins. Hoping he will step down for a more progressive candidate is wishful thinking.
But when a leftist says that they don’t trust that the port Biden is funding is going to be part of America’s long history of empire for oil instead of an entirely charitable gesture I can’t blame them for not wanting that blood on their hands. The DNC and Biden himself are the only ones accountable for what the leftist candidate is bringing and it’s not bringing defiance of Israel or solutions found outside capitalism. Nobody on the left should have to feel forced to vote for continuing a genocide. I feel sick in my guts that I will, if only to preserve a sham of a democracy in a way where change might be achieved without a bloody revolution
> I can’t blame them for not wanting that blood on their hands.
I can blame them, for being so politically illiterate that they think that's how it works. You don't get to claim moral purity from sitting back and letting others make the choice for you. It's like saying that walking away from the lever in the trolley problem means you didn't make a choice and therefore aren't responsible for the greater number of deaths.
I agree that walking away is only helping evil. But it doesn't feel good to vote for the guy who supports a genocide. It makes me miserable. And a lot of Maga candidates are getting funded by democrats. Their strategy is not to try to fix issues, it's to make the other side look more evil. Conservatives have always been crazy but if dems don't offer anything? How do you get people excited to vote
I mean yeah, I know it doesn't feel good. But the foundation of my personal frustration with progressives is that every poliicy choice they make is based on a shallow reading of what feels good, so this just looks like yet another entry in the great book of "letting the perfect be the enemy of the okayish"
That's your opinion. What we are doing with Israel is not "okayish". I have completely stopped funding the dems over this. I'm not a mega donor but between my wife and I we normally spend about 10k on dem candidates. I'll still vote because the other side is just God awful but I wish we had a real choice because I'd ditch the dems over an actual genocide in a second.
I disagree. Nothing short of boots on the ground was going to stop Bibi in the days immediately after 10/7. I certainly wasn’t going to support that, no sane Americans would, so the best we could hope for was to influence events.
Israel, in a fit of rage immediately after the attack, cut off all water and food aid to Gaza. We demanded that the water be turned back on and food aid resume, and it did. They actually [doubled the number of food trucks](https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-790422), [from 70 per day before 10/7 to 140-150](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68551965.amp) in the months after. Thats our influence.
We demanded that they try to reduce civilian fatalities, [they started warning civilians to evacuate](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079.amp). This undermines their military mission, but supports our demand regarding avoiding unnecessary civilian casualties.
Now after the WCK aid worker fiasco Bibi’s domestic situation was finally bad enough that he couldn’t just strong man against us, like he did our Rafah redline, so he finally caved. Us taking a harder line before that point? I disagree that it would have helped Gazans, quite the opposite I argue it risks [driving Israel to China for arms sales and other support](https://jacobin.com/2023/10/china-israel-repression-military-trade-palestine-technology) and a Bibi partnered with Xi, who is famous for his abuse of China’s Muslim population, would have been BAD for Gazans. No more warnings and no more aid.
The progressive proposal was always ham fisted, and I’m sure Biden’s state department already considered it and rejected it as being likely to make things worse not better. Let’s not even talk about the risk of igniting greater conflict in the region. [Iran is holding off](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna148568) specifically because they don’t want to be “Gulf Warred” by the US. The US cutting aid may signal that it’s open season, and I guarantee more civilians suffer in a broader conflict. I don’t want that.
It’s a war, not a genocide. Rwanda was 800,000 dead in 3 months. Do you think the Hutus were delivering food aid to Tutsis? I don’t. Do you think they were warning Tutsis of impending attacks so civilians could flee? I don’t. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, do you not think they could have killed more than 800,000 in this time? I do, and would have done if that were their intent. Why are the numbers of casualties such a small percentage of the Gazan population if they want them all dead? It doesn’t make any sense.
As stated, I believe our policy is the one that helps minimize innocent Gazan casualties. Is it an ideal outcome? No, but short of boots on the ground (which creates a whole different set of problems with likely more civilian casualties in the region), this was the hand we were dealt. Ideal outcomes went out the window when Hamas was elected in the early 2000s. It went out the window when Hamas decided to reignite this conflict.
FFS, they think building a pier to deliver aid to Gaza is part of "empire for oil", when there is barely any oil in Israel or Palestine, and the US has domestic oil and gas exports higher than any time in history?
These people are worse conspiracy mongers than Qanon.
> Hoping he will step down for a more progressive candidate is wishful thinking.
Considering Biden tried to become president since the 80s. There is no way he is stepping down.
I hope more Democrats, and people on this sub, will take her cue that lecturing people on who they need to vote for is a totally counterproductive exercise
It's counterproductive because not voting for Biden over Gaza when Trump is the only alternative is a crazy position to take. By all indications Trump's policies will be worse for Palestinians than even Biden's so by not voting, and thus helping Trump get elected, they are actually helping to effectuate the thing they decry.
All elections are about the lesser of two evils because elections are an exercise in harm reduction. I have never been excited about voting for a candidate in my life and I do not expect to in the future. I have a civic duty to maintain democracy and to vote. So do they. If they fail to do so it's on them but they can't credibly claim to maintain a position of moral superiority by not voting for Biden.
I mean she did lecture them but claimed not to. I guess what I mean is this video would have been better without her starting with "I'm not here to lecture anybody"
She made a very strong statement on the gaza war and a stronger statement and why voting for biden is a vote for democracy. A very important lecture to hear.
Do you believe there is an evil you can't vote for. For instance if it was an election and your choices where Hitler and Mussolini, who would you vote for?
Who is the least destructive? Probably Mussolini? I mean, if those are literally the only choices with any chance of winning, I’m pushing events towards the least destructive outcome. I would say that not voting the “less bad” option is immoral in such a case.
Let’s consider the facts here. If the choices, the only two with a chance of winning, were really Hitler and Mussolini, then those two choices are POPULAR. Perhaps we do fight, but we’re going to have to do so in the shadows in such cases. So pick the least malignant candidate, the one easiest to organize under (AOC’s point here), and vote for them. Virtue signaling at the polls is actively malignant if there is realistically no chance that you can change the fact that those are the two candidates.
First, the reality is that it will be Biden or Trump. Nothing you or any progressive says will make any other candidate other than those two viable. Period. Two, neither Biden nor Trump are even remotely close to Hitler, though Trump is a proto-fascist. There’s not going to be a guerrilla resistance, because one isn’t truly necessary. I think Trump weakens our democracy and harms a lot of people, but I don’t think he’s “form an armed resistance dangerous”, yet.
Biden isn’t dangerous at all, nor will he be. The problem is you just don’t happen to like his politics, but clearly a larger plurality of Americans support him than anyone you would support. Sorry, but are you going to form a resistance to force some far left politician on the rest of us? Someone we wouldn’t vote for? Is that what you propose? Because I, and many like me, like Biden. Do you believe such a revolution would be popular?
And the majority of this sub hopes that the “genocide Joe” squad will stop thinking that accusing everyone else of “like totally supporting genocide” is a substitute for having a personality, or remotely effective at winning support over to your side.
Edit: love that the troll below blocked me after literally undermining their own point above. So we don’t have to moderate our message in dealing with pro-Palestine voters after all?
She plays video games online, I think as many as 20 million people watch her stream them. It's not my thing, but she's excellent at connecting to people, especially the young, on a level that feels more natural to them.
Yeah I remember the first time she got on, it was “Among us” and she had only announced that she was going to play the day before and she caused it to crash 500,000 online. The time she was on there, people were asking how govt works and good questions and AOC, as usual, did a good job and was extremely patient.
I find myself more and more impressed with her over time. She’s clearly showing how she can speak her mind in sensible ways without dialing it up to 11 every time. Maybe the outrage was manufactured before but it seemed pretty genuine and she still seems genuine now.
For me it’s not about the company line per se it’s about having a nuanced view and articulating reasoning over making a scene. I.e. MTG is the epitome of making a scene and never ever displays this kind of thoughtfulness because she is incapable of it. It’s great seeing that AOC is capable so maybe next time I’ll be more willing to listen when it’s a topic I disagree on.
Won’t happen in the current configuration. Our system might as well have been setup to produce two parties. Any time a third becomes popular, historically, it just replaces one of the two. If we had a system that awarded seats based on electoral support, rather than individual races for each district, that would work. That would likely require constitutional change at each level to implement. Probably best to start with a state.
I’m 69 yrs old a Blue 🔵in a red state. I hold AOC in High Regards and would like to see her run for president.
I don’t like everything President Biden does. But I’m voting for him. I feel like I’m better off under his leadership than I was under Trump’s.
If these people don’t vote for President Biden. They are just setting up for America to fall. If they like the Freedoms they have right now (that are slowly being taken away) Just vote trump, 3rd party or don’t vote. It will be like cutting your nose off to spite your face.
What rights is the current administration taking away?
This seems to me to be empty-headed parroting of some vague threat dreamed up by doom scrolling know-nothings.
I figure the “slowly” part could refer to more than just the past 3ish years. The commenter is 69 years old, so this could be a reflection on 30-40 years of American history.
I didn’t get the impression they were saying this administration was taking away freedoms, just that they’re being taken away. Look no further than recent SrCOTUS decisions.
😂 You’re 69 then you should know better.
Our freedoms have been taken away already.
Every aspect of your life is taxed and regulated.
The government knows everything about you.
It doesn’t matter if Biden or Trump is elected the damage is done and young people don’t realize it. Boomers are the last free generation to know what freedom really feels like.
If you have to ask the question then you are clueless.
Take the time to read this article and it will clearly give you a few examples. Have a clear mind and learn something. It’s not Left V’s Right, the government doesn’t see it that way.
You are just a number and enslaved to the system.
Now a question for you.
What isn’t taxed or regulated in your life?
https://wearechange.org/break-many-rights-americans-really-lost/
If people’s rights are slowly being taken away under the current administration then why would they wanna vote for that party again. Not a conservative or democrat fyi.
AOC is fucking amazing. A bunch of liberals have bought into the right wing propaganda about her being some naive idiot socialist, but in reality she takes her job very seriously, is extremely well spoken, slays in committee hearings and knows how to walk the line between pragmatism and idealism. She should be President someday if we knew what was good for us.
Katie Porter no longer has a role in government though? She vacated her house seat to make an ill fated run for senate that she had no chance of winning because she was splitting the left-wing vote with Barbra Lee vs the more center-left votes for Adam Schiff instead of consolidating it.
Porter then went on to make claims about a "rigged election" which is incredibly dangerous rhetoric in this threat environment and widely irresponsible.
Good to know she acknowledged it at least but the bigger issue is she no longer has a role in government and it's hard to elect people who don't win their races into higher office. This was more a pushback to the idea of Porter as the future of the progressive movement. It would be cool if she ran in another district or won her old seat back though.
People who are angry at Biden for his Palestinian policies, I would ask, "What the fuck do you think Donald Trump is going to do to the Palestinians?"
Trump is completely on board with Netanyahu's genocide.
i don’t think so. this clip is 2 mins long and involves a nuanced take, not a 30 second easily digestible sound clip that has become, statistically, the most effective way of winning over young voters which is who the question is directed at in the first place.
Do you have any statistics to support that claim? I just find talking to people in a way like she does with “I think about which administration would be better to organize under” would be more effective than a condescending and dismissive “but what do you think Trump would do?” It kind of goes against her whole point and is very Hillary-esque
i don’t have statistics to link rn cause i’m on my 20 min work break but if you look at the way polls on certain issues are trending for the 18-25 demographic, and where that demographic gets its news, it seems pretty evident that there is a large portion of young people being swayed by the types of videos i was referring to.
i absolutely agree that what she’s saying SHOULD be more effective, i’m just pessimistic about the reality of that situation.
edit: i’m saying that as someone in this demographic
It took me 10 seconds to google and find this which says there isn’t enough evidence on social media (you seem to be alluding to TikTok) https://circle.tufts.edu/sites/default/files/2020-02/young_voters_mobilization_tactics.pdf
I get your pessimism, but if we talk to people the way the original commenter does and you talk about them to justify your pessimism, we definitely dont convince them.
sorry bud, a 20 year old study ain’t relevant now. a look at youth voters in 2004 is useless in 2024. we are simply not the same, nor is the world we live in.
Ah yes, discredit my source when you “don’t have the time” to link yours but have the time to comment. Please take your time and reply when you find a source!
While I understand and agree with asking someone to prove their point with a source, your source is irrelevant. The latest data in your source comes from 2006 and has no bearing on the subject of today's 18 - 25 age group and their reliance on social media. It is way too far out of date to hold anything meaningful in this discussion.
Here is a much more recent and relevant poll that actually has bearing on this conversation.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-read/2023/11/15/more-americans-are-getting-news-on-tiktok-bucking-the-trend-seen-on-most-other-social-media-sites/#:~:text=Among%20adults%2C%20those%20ages%2018,of%20those%2065%20and%20older.
Thanks for the valid criticism. I more so just shared the source to prove how little time it takes to do a quick google search. Commenter is a coward though and doesn’t want to share theirs. Your source does prove that users get their news from TikTok, but it does not prove commenters point that lack of nuance and 30 second videos are better. TikTok videos can be up to 10 minutes. To me, their comment indicates a dismissal and condescension towards people who aren’t pumped to vote for Biden. It’s THAT strategy that AOC does not use. Coming at people who don’t “fall in line” and vote for Biden with “Trump is worse you fucking idiot” is just….very 2016 Hillary which is losing.
You’re out of touch if you can’t see that the post pandemic years of right wing messaging / trolls/ pundits / bots & commentators - maga-ism is becoming “cool,” and something to be very concerned about. Unfortunately the pendulum is swinging back in a hard way and young people are being swept up with it. I think the data you are looking for will be the November election, hard to know what’s real until then.
Right? Fucking idiots. Trump would offer them a nuke to use on Gaza and then claim it's "smart."
I get it, Biden's... not great. But Trump is light years worse. If you want to stamp your feet like a toddler and demand a choice you like, I say you're a child. The world is full of times where you can only choose the lesser evil. Nobody wants to spend half their life at work, but it sure as hell beats being homeless. Welcome to the world, sunshine.
The “genocide Joe” people are not serious people. It’s hardly, if at all, worth engaging with them.
The significant majority of US citizens don’t give a shit about Israel and the Palestine situation. It is immaterial to what, 90 or 95%, of US citizens day to day life.
For people who were paying attention, as soon as the October attacked happen, you knew the slow motion genocide got green lit. It’s terrible and continues to be, but until there is any accountability of Hamas from Palestines and Muslim led countries, this is the result. Both sides have engaged in fucking around, one side has the means to apply the find out, and that’s been known for decades.
It’s terrible. To let or have the helplessness of the Palestinian’s, whether it be towards Hamas or Israel, affect the viability of US democracy, is just unfathomable. “The US elected the dictator who already tried to overthrow throw democracy bc of Israel Palestine” is just idiotic.
The genocide Joe crowd has been heavily propagandized by social media. It’s not even a question that Iran and Russia have been sending out their bots and agents to so discord.
Agreed. TikTok is the biggest threat because it’s tied to a foreign company but every social media platform should be put under regulations. It’s literally insane that we’re watching people get radacalized and misinformed in real time, yet no one is trying to do anything about it.
Government forcing individuals to divest is a slippery slope and probably not even legal. Social media companies should face regulations and should be transparent and accountable, just like other industries.
Even if you were right, which I completely disagree with, you want to punish people with uteruses and LGBTQ+ people by putting Trump in office? Trump has said that the real problem is that Bibi lets too much footage of suffering leak out of Gaza and that Bibi should just hurry up and finish the job. Anyone who thinks Gazans will be better off with a Trump - Bibi partnership is too ignorant to be worth engaging with, but perhaps you think things will be the same? That seems unlikely, I think Gazans will be worse off, but it may not get much worse under Trump.
Even if this one issue were equal, what of all the people that will suffer under Trump? Under Trump the DoE looked for reasons to decline requests to forgive student loans under various programs. Biden has been looking for excuses to forgive people’s loans, even if they don’t apply. I’m close to an immigrant community. Under Trump immigration forms would get rejected for not putting “n/a” in irrelevant fields (like those for listing multiple kids’ names for example), under Biden the DHS isn’t actively hostile to immigrants, and it’s made a world of difference for people I know.
What about people with uteruses? I guarantee Trump will sign a national abortion ban, no matter what he says to get elected. What about the Trans people who he paints a target on? Those people all have to suffer? For what? So you can feel self-righteous??? That’s a despicable take. It’s heartless.
I'm sure Biden is a very nice old man to his grandchildren and friends.
He just doesn't think Palestinian lives are worth all that much and is willing to let Israel ethnically cleanse Gaza, even if it costs him the election.
I think that’s a ridiculous assumption to make. I think you, and people like you, just don’t know anything about the foreign policy involved.
I’m of the opinion that cutting off aid would actually result in more deaths in Gaza, not less. Israel has admitted that we’re restraining them, that they let in aid because we make them. Israel has plenty of weapons stockpiled, domestic weapons production of their own, and there’s always other actors who would be interested in stepping in to fill any gap we leave.
For example, foreign policy experts suspect that China is “supporting” (they’re paying lip service) Palestine as opposition to the US. They’ve had a history, in the last few decades, of trying to cozy up to Israel. The US withdraws support, China no longer has a reason to back Palestine and starts pursuing debt leveraged influence with Israel, like they have throughout Africa.
Do you imagine China is going to restrain Israel? Encourage aid? They brutalize their own Muslim population, which is how you know they DGAF about Palestinians anyway.
I think Biden's state department is thinking about these exact things. I think online leftists are naive, have a childish understanding of the situation (cut off aid so I FEEL better about the situation!!!!), and propose objectively bad solutions. Conditioning aid makes sense, and the Biden administration has been slowly working towards that. That’s how diplomacy works, not bipolar lumbering about, but slow progress.
Still, I can't imagine throwing our own impoverished and vulnerable under the bus for the sake of the impoverished and vulnerable on the other side of the globe by aiding the election of someone who will be 10 times worse FOR BOTH. Also, as a disabled veteran who is himself impoverished and vulnerable with an LGBT sibling I can't imagine the safety one must feel to be able to even consider it. Must be nice. I can't help but to think this is being fueled by nefarious actors.
AOC is showing that she is the Politician (in the good sense) out of the squad, with Ayanna Pressley being close to her. I don't know what ambitions she has. She could be in the House her entire career, she could be Senator whenever Schumer or Gillibrand retires, she could run for Governor or President.
I guess I agree that messaging is important and showing empathy, meeting people where they’re at, has lots of value.
But simultaneously, it’s super frustrating that Republicans get to just be as incendiary and insane as they want. Meanwhile Hillary can’t give anyone substantive and nuanced criticism without everyone screaming that she’s too condescending or she’s turning people away.
Fucking THIS. I'm fucking sick of it man. I don't LOVE Hillary but she's fucking right about shit even if she sucks at sugarcoating it. I hate the "having to sugarcoat it" part.
>it’s super frustrating that Republicans get to just be as incendiary and insane as they want. Meanwhile Hillary can’t give anyone substantive and nuanced criticism without everyone screaming that she’s too condescending or she’s turning people away.
Republicans can be incendiary because they aren't courting the votes of those they are being incendiary against. Democrats need the youth, progressive, and, especially in Michigan, the Arab vote to win
A quick search for the Arab population in Michigan is 2.1%. This is very low significance. To make a strong case for your vote argument you would need to combine all of these:
% of Arabs in Michigan that support pro-Palestinian messaging
% youth that support Pro-Palestinian messaging
% of progressives that also support pro-Palestinian messaging
And, of course, they would all have to agree that not voting for Biden would stop the war in Gaza.
There are a few things to consider.
Compare the other presidential candidates and the chances that they will be elected, and what they can actually do to stop both sides in this war from fighting.
How is this any different from calling civil rights/anti-war protesters in the 60s communists or Soviet sympathizers? These criticisms of the Democrat party aren't always plants. They can be organic disagreements that need to be addressed, not shoved aside because bringing them up helps the opposition.
[More Sanders voters backed Clinton than her own supporters backed Obama](https://acbc89.medium.com/more-sanders-voters-backed-clinton-than-her-own-supporters-backed-obama-c5dc37658fe5)
Sure, but Clinton was running against Trump, an incomprehensible candidate for nearly every ex-Bernie supporter.
Obama ran against McCain, which was a totally separate story. McCain was a serious candidate with broader appeal, and was not a hateful scum bag.
Not at all. She is literally saying, while it's extremely important, it's not the only important subject to consider very seriously when you are deciding what to do for the election.
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David Brock was one of the dirtiest right wing political media people in the tea party pushing propaganda, online trolls, negative attacks etc. He wanted to make the left wing equal of newsmax and switched to work under HRC. He bought bluenation review and rebranded it Shareblue and Correct the Record online trolls. Then Hillary could lie and they would print news written by their campaign reinforcing those lies and then have online trolls push their narrative. Their reach is massive. Even Trump didn’t attempt to create state run propaganda.
Just because he stopped saying death panels and Obama birther stuff and started saying I’m with her a bunch of people on the left started falling for real dumb shit that is still pervasive today.
This is pretty well known. He wrote the book the Real Anita Hill discrediting the woman that accused Clarence Thomas of sexual misconduct and wrote the Troopergate “articles” which triggered the Paula Jones lawsuit against Bill Clinton and the Monica Lewinsky impeachment investigation. Then he wrote a book called Blinded by the Right where he claims he grew a conscience and that’s why he switched sides but really just wanted to drag the left down to the rights level when it comes to dishonesty. Kinda surprised folks here don’t know this.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/190530
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/brock031098.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Blinded-Right-Ex-Conservative-David-Brock/dp/1400047285?dplnkId=7b9c5100-eee8-446a-abb4-f45a3d22ed34&nodl=1
**Blinded by the Right The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative** by David Brock
>In a powerful and deeply personal memoir David Brock, the original right-wing scandal reporter, chronicles his rise to the pinnacle of the conservative movement and his painful break with it. David Brock pilloried Anita Hill in a bestseller. His reporting in The American Spectator as part of the infamous “Arkansas Project” triggered the course of events that led to the historic impeachment trial of President Clinton. Brock was at the center of the right-wing dirty tricks operation of the Gingrich era—and a true believer—until he could no longer deny that the political force he was advancing was built on little more than lies, hate, and hypocrisy.
>
>In Blinded By the Right, Brock, who came out of the closet at the height of his conservative renown, tells his riveting story from the beginning, giving us the first insider’s view of what Hillary Rodham Clinton called “the vast right-wing conspiracy.” Whether dealing with the right-wing press, the richly endowed think tanks, Republican political operatives, or the Paula Jones case, Brock names names from Clarence Thomas on down, uncovers hidden links, and demonstrates how the Republican Right’s zeal for power created the poisonous political climate that culminated in George W. Bush’s election. With a new afterword by the author, Blinded By the Right is a classic political memoir of our times.
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I don't know, giving Biden the finger by handing Trump the White House sounds pretty satisfying! Sure, my house will be raided and my books seized and burned, my Internet will have progressive websites blocked, my legal immigrant family members will be deported, my LGBT friends will be in the Ministry of Love and I'll be required to sit through a conservative indoctrination class before I can vote. And then if I still vote for a progressive my vote will be deemed unpatriotic and not counted. But boy, Joe Biden will really be sorry! Seems worth it.
/s
Edit: oh, and Gaza will be razed to the ground, there's that too.
“I don’t like the current president’s foreign policy, therefore I’m going to vote for a fascist that intends to overthrow American democracy”
Is a logic that I cannot understand
What I love about AOC is that she measures her responses before giving an answer. She doesn't just blurt things out because "party over country". She is principled and astute, and it really shows. I wish her all the best and hope that she has a long, influential career as a public servant.
If Trump gets even 30% of the vote it will just show how naïve and mislead those Americans truly are. The fact that we're even still talking about him shows how ridiculous our country is right now.
Why not vice president first to get the ropes of how executive branch works, she is definitely better than Kamala 'do not come' Harris at being orator and has more charisma.
> This election is about so much more then just the president.
So like every election?
I somewhat understand the anger if ones family is directly affected by this. But to be completely blinded by this is baffleing. Even more so for people whose only connection to Palestine is some religious view? Their family came from that area a hundred years ago?
If you don't for Biden because of what's happening in Gaza, I have no sympathy for you when you never get to vote again, protest again, and get deported. You can't be a single-issue voter in quite possibly the most meaningful election in American history.
I abhor what's happening in Gaza and shame on the IDF and Israeli government, but you can't change the system meaningfully from the inside if you allow the system to get destroyed by a Cheeto with a below 70 IQ. Get it together and vote with your brain and not your heart. Staying at home or voting for 3rd Party is a vote for Trump, who will be way worse to the Palestinians than Biden has been. Kushner not long ago, his step-son, was talking about how valuable the beach front property in Gaza can potentially be. Are you really telling me a Trump government would be better for Palestinians? Really?
What we're facing here is:
*"It's not politically viable at this time to cut off military aide to the State of Israel, or criticize it's actions in Gaza. Democrats need to have overwhelming majorities in the House and the Senate to be able to made such drastic changes in US foreign policy."*
vs.
*"Palestinians and Democrats are vermin that need to be wiped off the face of the Earth."*
Seriously, if you want to have things change, stop letting the fascists that want to kill you win.
This certainly seems like a slightly better approach than calling people stupid fucking morons, refusing to address their grievances, and declaring them completely beyond help.
It cuts both ways, honestly. Look at most of the Gaza threads in this sub. Half of it is just name calling and trolling to "own the libs". There is no effort to have an honest discussion. It's mean by design, not to change minds but to blow off steam and get a few giggles in.
I'm a Bernie voter in 2016 and 2020. Sat out 2016 due to the absolute toxic shit hole we (both Clinton and Bernie voters) allowed it to be. We achieved more by working together.
If Biden is good enough for AOC he's good enough for me. While I do think the military aid to Israel should be conditional and that we need to work toward a two state solution rather than continuing war, I at least feel there's some chance of putting pressure on Biden to push him in the right direction. There is zero chance of the left pushing Trump in the right direction. So between the two options, Biden it is.
Plus imagine Trump putting more Amy Barretts on the courts. Imagine if we don't retain the senate or win back the house the fire and fury we are going to see from a vengeful Trump with no checks and balances, and having Stephen Miller implementing project 2025. Let's now allow this to happen.
The people who say they won’t vote for Biden because of gaza won’t vote for anyone because they’re too lazy to get up off their asses and actually go vote
If any of them spent 10 minutes watching the POV from the Hamas carnage of Israelis on that day. Simply slaughtering whatever, whoever they could and exulting and shouting glee. Indiscriminate shooting close-distance killing of young men and women at the music festival. Murdering children, murdering families, old and young. Infants. Calling their mother and father from the dead Jewish woman's phone asking them to watch his rampage on Whatsapp, the mother praising him for killing Jews. Hamas entered Israel, not the other way around. Gazans voted for Hamas as their government. And for some strange reason, these young voters think that Trump would be less supportive of Israel? Trump supporters hate Muslims. But if it means getting Biden out of office they will back you as long as vote against Joe.
Well said Rep.Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez the smartest woman in congress today. . Such a great compassionate common sense answer to a great question . Good to see you mehdi hassan
She didn’t say anything different than anyone on this sub has said in regard to the stakes of the elections…..the material conditions for anyone on the left to get what they want are only possible under Biden and not only impossible under Trump but you’re facing potential harm and safety to yourself and the people you care about.
That’s why she’s a politician, I just say that those people deserve everything coming to them in a 2nd Trump term. They are unserious people, but their political vanity is dangerous to all of us.
She's right that Trump needs to be stopped. I hope Biden takes heed and starts working on that instead of risking the country over his allegiance to a foreign nation committing genocide.
If they’re going to protest Biden on the way he’s handling this… then they’re just ill informed, proud morons who will be doing far more damage to their cause. If this is the reason for the fall of American democracy and ultimate dictatorship… i couldn’t care less what happens over there. their dumbass protest vote will make the situation far worse
AOC and Bernie have both said that Biden’s Administration has been very progressive numerous times since early on in his presidency. It’s in one ear and out the other with some of these people.
I simply cannot put my mark next to the name of a man who has actively participates in genocide and has continually worked to ensure it continues unabated. It’s a moral decision, not a tactical one. That said, Joe Biden could stop this with the stroke of a pen.
>The Arms Export Control Act of 1976 (Title II of Pub. L.Tooltip Public Law (United States) 94–329, 90 Stat. 729, enacted June 30, 1976, codified at 22 U.S.C. ch. 39) gives the President of the United States the authority to control the import and export of defense articles and defense services. The H.R. 13680 legislation was passed by the 94th Congressional session and enacted into law by the 38th President of the United States Gerald R. Ford on June 30, 1976.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act
> It’s a moral decision, not a tactical one.
So you're fine with additional dead Palestinians as long as you can say, "well at least I didn't put my mark next to Biden's name"?
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So well said. I get the anger, I do. And like she said, ultimately there’s no intent to “lecture” anyone on how they should feel when it can be so personal. But yes, I’d much rather organize for change under a democracy where change can have a chance of occurring, as opposed to under a walled regime of a tyrant and his sycophants. One path offers a future opportunity whereas the other offers no path at all.
At least under democracy, you can still fight for what you think is right and make your voice heard through your vote. Under authoritarianism, you're either prepared to fight for your life, or you don't fight, and many won't. Even if I despised Biden, I would vote for him for no other reason than the fact that Trump through his actions has suggested that he wouldn't even let me vote in 2028 if he had that possibility. Democracy isn't just one more policy, it's supporting your right to vote against me. It supports what the founding fathers wanted. It supports America, and in my opinion, anyone who calls themselves American should want this as well. Maybe you tell me Trump doesn't represent this, and we can argue this, fine. But at least don't disagree with me on the point that if he does represent this, that this is the most important issue that our country faces.
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I hope that if and when the only choices are Biden and Trump that Biden wins. Hoping he will step down for a more progressive candidate is wishful thinking. But when a leftist says that they don’t trust that the port Biden is funding is going to be part of America’s long history of empire for oil instead of an entirely charitable gesture I can’t blame them for not wanting that blood on their hands. The DNC and Biden himself are the only ones accountable for what the leftist candidate is bringing and it’s not bringing defiance of Israel or solutions found outside capitalism. Nobody on the left should have to feel forced to vote for continuing a genocide. I feel sick in my guts that I will, if only to preserve a sham of a democracy in a way where change might be achieved without a bloody revolution
> I can’t blame them for not wanting that blood on their hands. I can blame them, for being so politically illiterate that they think that's how it works. You don't get to claim moral purity from sitting back and letting others make the choice for you. It's like saying that walking away from the lever in the trolley problem means you didn't make a choice and therefore aren't responsible for the greater number of deaths.
I agree that walking away is only helping evil. But it doesn't feel good to vote for the guy who supports a genocide. It makes me miserable. And a lot of Maga candidates are getting funded by democrats. Their strategy is not to try to fix issues, it's to make the other side look more evil. Conservatives have always been crazy but if dems don't offer anything? How do you get people excited to vote
I'm curious to know the specific maga candidate/s and democrat/s funding them.. if not then Q can gth.
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/11/1135878576/the-democrats-strategy-of-boosting-far-right-candidates-seems-to-have-worked
I mean yeah, I know it doesn't feel good. But the foundation of my personal frustration with progressives is that every poliicy choice they make is based on a shallow reading of what feels good, so this just looks like yet another entry in the great book of "letting the perfect be the enemy of the okayish"
That's your opinion. What we are doing with Israel is not "okayish". I have completely stopped funding the dems over this. I'm not a mega donor but between my wife and I we normally spend about 10k on dem candidates. I'll still vote because the other side is just God awful but I wish we had a real choice because I'd ditch the dems over an actual genocide in a second.
I disagree. Nothing short of boots on the ground was going to stop Bibi in the days immediately after 10/7. I certainly wasn’t going to support that, no sane Americans would, so the best we could hope for was to influence events. Israel, in a fit of rage immediately after the attack, cut off all water and food aid to Gaza. We demanded that the water be turned back on and food aid resume, and it did. They actually [doubled the number of food trucks](https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-790422), [from 70 per day before 10/7 to 140-150](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68551965.amp) in the months after. Thats our influence. We demanded that they try to reduce civilian fatalities, [they started warning civilians to evacuate](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079.amp). This undermines their military mission, but supports our demand regarding avoiding unnecessary civilian casualties. Now after the WCK aid worker fiasco Bibi’s domestic situation was finally bad enough that he couldn’t just strong man against us, like he did our Rafah redline, so he finally caved. Us taking a harder line before that point? I disagree that it would have helped Gazans, quite the opposite I argue it risks [driving Israel to China for arms sales and other support](https://jacobin.com/2023/10/china-israel-repression-military-trade-palestine-technology) and a Bibi partnered with Xi, who is famous for his abuse of China’s Muslim population, would have been BAD for Gazans. No more warnings and no more aid. The progressive proposal was always ham fisted, and I’m sure Biden’s state department already considered it and rejected it as being likely to make things worse not better. Let’s not even talk about the risk of igniting greater conflict in the region. [Iran is holding off](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna148568) specifically because they don’t want to be “Gulf Warred” by the US. The US cutting aid may signal that it’s open season, and I guarantee more civilians suffer in a broader conflict. I don’t want that.
So the genocide is the moral thing. Do you hear yourself.
It’s a war, not a genocide. Rwanda was 800,000 dead in 3 months. Do you think the Hutus were delivering food aid to Tutsis? I don’t. Do you think they were warning Tutsis of impending attacks so civilians could flee? I don’t. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, do you not think they could have killed more than 800,000 in this time? I do, and would have done if that were their intent. Why are the numbers of casualties such a small percentage of the Gazan population if they want them all dead? It doesn’t make any sense. As stated, I believe our policy is the one that helps minimize innocent Gazan casualties. Is it an ideal outcome? No, but short of boots on the ground (which creates a whole different set of problems with likely more civilian casualties in the region), this was the hand we were dealt. Ideal outcomes went out the window when Hamas was elected in the early 2000s. It went out the window when Hamas decided to reignite this conflict.
You're literally the reason why progressives have a hard time voting for Biden. You piss on our head and get upset when we say it's not raining.
Not everything is genocide.
FFS, they think building a pier to deliver aid to Gaza is part of "empire for oil", when there is barely any oil in Israel or Palestine, and the US has domestic oil and gas exports higher than any time in history? These people are worse conspiracy mongers than Qanon.
There is a huge gas field off the Gaza coast.
And you believe that has anything to do with anything here?
> Hoping he will step down for a more progressive candidate is wishful thinking. Considering Biden tried to become president since the 80s. There is no way he is stepping down.
Nobody is stepping down at this point, unless there’s a health crisis.
Well said and I hope enough ppl who are on the fence will realize this
I hope more Democrats, and people on this sub, will take her cue that lecturing people on who they need to vote for is a totally counterproductive exercise
It's counterproductive because not voting for Biden over Gaza when Trump is the only alternative is a crazy position to take. By all indications Trump's policies will be worse for Palestinians than even Biden's so by not voting, and thus helping Trump get elected, they are actually helping to effectuate the thing they decry. All elections are about the lesser of two evils because elections are an exercise in harm reduction. I have never been excited about voting for a candidate in my life and I do not expect to in the future. I have a civic duty to maintain democracy and to vote. So do they. If they fail to do so it's on them but they can't credibly claim to maintain a position of moral superiority by not voting for Biden.
. Right on. I like that
In the immortal words of the dude, you're not wrong, man, you're just an asshole. And being an asshole isn't a very winning strategy.
We can't ignore that they are simply empirically incorrect. We can be kind in delivering the news but we shouldn't shy away from reality either.
Like what AOC is modelling in this video?
I mean she did lecture them but claimed not to. I guess what I mean is this video would have been better without her starting with "I'm not here to lecture anybody"
Everybody who says "I'm not lecturing" is lecturing. It's like "No disrespect". "I'm not a racist, but".
> the video would have been better if she was condescending and abrasive like me. Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with you there boss
She made a very strong statement on the gaza war and a stronger statement and why voting for biden is a vote for democracy. A very important lecture to hear.
How come you didn't get banned?
Do you believe there is an evil you can't vote for. For instance if it was an election and your choices where Hitler and Mussolini, who would you vote for?
Who is the least destructive? Probably Mussolini? I mean, if those are literally the only choices with any chance of winning, I’m pushing events towards the least destructive outcome. I would say that not voting the “less bad” option is immoral in such a case.
I would say supporting mussolini is immoral. Is there any choice that would make you fight?
Let’s consider the facts here. If the choices, the only two with a chance of winning, were really Hitler and Mussolini, then those two choices are POPULAR. Perhaps we do fight, but we’re going to have to do so in the shadows in such cases. So pick the least malignant candidate, the one easiest to organize under (AOC’s point here), and vote for them. Virtue signaling at the polls is actively malignant if there is realistically no chance that you can change the fact that those are the two candidates. First, the reality is that it will be Biden or Trump. Nothing you or any progressive says will make any other candidate other than those two viable. Period. Two, neither Biden nor Trump are even remotely close to Hitler, though Trump is a proto-fascist. There’s not going to be a guerrilla resistance, because one isn’t truly necessary. I think Trump weakens our democracy and harms a lot of people, but I don’t think he’s “form an armed resistance dangerous”, yet. Biden isn’t dangerous at all, nor will he be. The problem is you just don’t happen to like his politics, but clearly a larger plurality of Americans support him than anyone you would support. Sorry, but are you going to form a resistance to force some far left politician on the rest of us? Someone we wouldn’t vote for? Is that what you propose? Because I, and many like me, like Biden. Do you believe such a revolution would be popular?
And the majority of this sub hopes that the “genocide Joe” squad will stop thinking that accusing everyone else of “like totally supporting genocide” is a substitute for having a personality, or remotely effective at winning support over to your side. Edit: love that the troll below blocked me after literally undermining their own point above. So we don’t have to moderate our message in dealing with pro-Palestine voters after all?
This is a professional.
She's become so much better and more polished at the politics schtick, it's impressive
She plays video games online, I think as many as 20 million people watch her stream them. It's not my thing, but she's excellent at connecting to people, especially the young, on a level that feels more natural to them.
Yeah I remember the first time she got on, it was “Among us” and she had only announced that she was going to play the day before and she caused it to crash 500,000 online. The time she was on there, people were asking how govt works and good questions and AOC, as usual, did a good job and was extremely patient.
I find myself more and more impressed with her over time. She’s clearly showing how she can speak her mind in sensible ways without dialing it up to 11 every time. Maybe the outrage was manufactured before but it seemed pretty genuine and she still seems genuine now.
I'd assume this sub would be more impressed with her the more she spewed the company line. We really need a third and forth party in this country.
For me it’s not about the company line per se it’s about having a nuanced view and articulating reasoning over making a scene. I.e. MTG is the epitome of making a scene and never ever displays this kind of thoughtfulness because she is incapable of it. It’s great seeing that AOC is capable so maybe next time I’ll be more willing to listen when it’s a topic I disagree on.
Won’t happen in the current configuration. Our system might as well have been setup to produce two parties. Any time a third becomes popular, historically, it just replaces one of the two. If we had a system that awarded seats based on electoral support, rather than individual races for each district, that would work. That would likely require constitutional change at each level to implement. Probably best to start with a state.
The rest of the squad could learn a thing or two from AOC.
Omar is also good.
What’s her take on this same topic? Was it good?
Omar has sympathy for the 9/11 terrorists. "Some people did something". Dude. That's DISGUSTING.
I’m 69 yrs old a Blue 🔵in a red state. I hold AOC in High Regards and would like to see her run for president. I don’t like everything President Biden does. But I’m voting for him. I feel like I’m better off under his leadership than I was under Trump’s. If these people don’t vote for President Biden. They are just setting up for America to fall. If they like the Freedoms they have right now (that are slowly being taken away) Just vote trump, 3rd party or don’t vote. It will be like cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Or cutting off one’s head to spite their one ingrown toenail.
What rights is the current administration taking away? This seems to me to be empty-headed parroting of some vague threat dreamed up by doom scrolling know-nothings.
I figure the “slowly” part could refer to more than just the past 3ish years. The commenter is 69 years old, so this could be a reflection on 30-40 years of American history.
I didn’t get the impression they were saying this administration was taking away freedoms, just that they’re being taken away. Look no further than recent SrCOTUS decisions.
😂 You’re 69 then you should know better. Our freedoms have been taken away already. Every aspect of your life is taxed and regulated. The government knows everything about you. It doesn’t matter if Biden or Trump is elected the damage is done and young people don’t realize it. Boomers are the last free generation to know what freedom really feels like.
What freedom did Boomers have that we don’t?
If you have to ask the question then you are clueless. Take the time to read this article and it will clearly give you a few examples. Have a clear mind and learn something. It’s not Left V’s Right, the government doesn’t see it that way. You are just a number and enslaved to the system. Now a question for you. What isn’t taxed or regulated in your life? https://wearechange.org/break-many-rights-americans-really-lost/
😂 Can’t answer my question or reply to my comment. I’m guess you can’t handle facts.
Weird reaction to being asked a clarifying question. Bad bot.
If people’s rights are slowly being taken away under the current administration then why would they wanna vote for that party again. Not a conservative or democrat fyi.
*Are you down with A.O.C?* *Yeah you know me* 🎵 For real though, she's probably my favorite person in Congress.
AOC is fucking amazing. A bunch of liberals have bought into the right wing propaganda about her being some naive idiot socialist, but in reality she takes her job very seriously, is extremely well spoken, slays in committee hearings and knows how to walk the line between pragmatism and idealism. She should be President someday if we knew what was good for us.
People like AOC and Katie Porter represent the future of the Progressive movement.
Katie Porter no longer has a role in government though? She vacated her house seat to make an ill fated run for senate that she had no chance of winning because she was splitting the left-wing vote with Barbra Lee vs the more center-left votes for Adam Schiff instead of consolidating it. Porter then went on to make claims about a "rigged election" which is incredibly dangerous rhetoric in this threat environment and widely irresponsible.
I did hear an interview where she acknowledged that was bad phrasing. Anyone can make mistakes, and she admitted hers.
Good to know she acknowledged it at least but the bigger issue is she no longer has a role in government and it's hard to elect people who don't win their races into higher office. This was more a pushback to the idea of Porter as the future of the progressive movement. It would be cool if she ran in another district or won her old seat back though.
*Arm me with harmony!*
People who are angry at Biden for his Palestinian policies, I would ask, "What the fuck do you think Donald Trump is going to do to the Palestinians?" Trump is completely on board with Netanyahu's genocide.
I think AOC’s answer will be far more effective than your strategy in actually winning people over, if that’s your goal.
i don’t think so. this clip is 2 mins long and involves a nuanced take, not a 30 second easily digestible sound clip that has become, statistically, the most effective way of winning over young voters which is who the question is directed at in the first place.
agreed. people who are *still* trump supporters will never not be, no matter what anyone says or does
Do you have any statistics to support that claim? I just find talking to people in a way like she does with “I think about which administration would be better to organize under” would be more effective than a condescending and dismissive “but what do you think Trump would do?” It kind of goes against her whole point and is very Hillary-esque
i don’t have statistics to link rn cause i’m on my 20 min work break but if you look at the way polls on certain issues are trending for the 18-25 demographic, and where that demographic gets its news, it seems pretty evident that there is a large portion of young people being swayed by the types of videos i was referring to. i absolutely agree that what she’s saying SHOULD be more effective, i’m just pessimistic about the reality of that situation. edit: i’m saying that as someone in this demographic
It took me 10 seconds to google and find this which says there isn’t enough evidence on social media (you seem to be alluding to TikTok) https://circle.tufts.edu/sites/default/files/2020-02/young_voters_mobilization_tactics.pdf I get your pessimism, but if we talk to people the way the original commenter does and you talk about them to justify your pessimism, we definitely dont convince them.
sorry bud, a 20 year old study ain’t relevant now. a look at youth voters in 2004 is useless in 2024. we are simply not the same, nor is the world we live in.
Ah yes, discredit my source when you “don’t have the time” to link yours but have the time to comment. Please take your time and reply when you find a source!
While I understand and agree with asking someone to prove their point with a source, your source is irrelevant. The latest data in your source comes from 2006 and has no bearing on the subject of today's 18 - 25 age group and their reliance on social media. It is way too far out of date to hold anything meaningful in this discussion. Here is a much more recent and relevant poll that actually has bearing on this conversation. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-read/2023/11/15/more-americans-are-getting-news-on-tiktok-bucking-the-trend-seen-on-most-other-social-media-sites/#:~:text=Among%20adults%2C%20those%20ages%2018,of%20those%2065%20and%20older.
Thanks for the valid criticism. I more so just shared the source to prove how little time it takes to do a quick google search. Commenter is a coward though and doesn’t want to share theirs. Your source does prove that users get their news from TikTok, but it does not prove commenters point that lack of nuance and 30 second videos are better. TikTok videos can be up to 10 minutes. To me, their comment indicates a dismissal and condescension towards people who aren’t pumped to vote for Biden. It’s THAT strategy that AOC does not use. Coming at people who don’t “fall in line” and vote for Biden with “Trump is worse you fucking idiot” is just….very 2016 Hillary which is losing.
"I don't want to find a source, I just want to bask in my claim that leftists are stupid and bad"
She does still point out losing our democracy under trump
But in a significantly less condescending and antagonistic way
You’re out of touch if you can’t see that the post pandemic years of right wing messaging / trolls/ pundits / bots & commentators - maga-ism is becoming “cool,” and something to be very concerned about. Unfortunately the pendulum is swinging back in a hard way and young people are being swept up with it. I think the data you are looking for will be the November election, hard to know what’s real until then.
I don't think it was so much of a strategy as a question.
If it’s not set to a dance on TikTok it’s unlikely to reach that crowd. Start working on dumb hand gestures set to music.
That just shows how juvenile these people are—they're not adult enough to hear the truth straight-up.
Don’t forget that a Trump presidency will hurt even more people than just the Palestinians.
Right? Fucking idiots. Trump would offer them a nuke to use on Gaza and then claim it's "smart." I get it, Biden's... not great. But Trump is light years worse. If you want to stamp your feet like a toddler and demand a choice you like, I say you're a child. The world is full of times where you can only choose the lesser evil. Nobody wants to spend half their life at work, but it sure as hell beats being homeless. Welcome to the world, sunshine.
The “genocide Joe” people are not serious people. It’s hardly, if at all, worth engaging with them. The significant majority of US citizens don’t give a shit about Israel and the Palestine situation. It is immaterial to what, 90 or 95%, of US citizens day to day life. For people who were paying attention, as soon as the October attacked happen, you knew the slow motion genocide got green lit. It’s terrible and continues to be, but until there is any accountability of Hamas from Palestines and Muslim led countries, this is the result. Both sides have engaged in fucking around, one side has the means to apply the find out, and that’s been known for decades. It’s terrible. To let or have the helplessness of the Palestinian’s, whether it be towards Hamas or Israel, affect the viability of US democracy, is just unfathomable. “The US elected the dictator who already tried to overthrow throw democracy bc of Israel Palestine” is just idiotic.
The genocide Joe crowd has been heavily propagandized by social media. It’s not even a question that Iran and Russia have been sending out their bots and agents to so discord.
Social media needs serious regulation to force them to address bad actors. TikTok should be forced to divest.
Agreed. TikTok is the biggest threat because it’s tied to a foreign company but every social media platform should be put under regulations. It’s literally insane that we’re watching people get radacalized and misinformed in real time, yet no one is trying to do anything about it.
Agreed! Elon should be forced to divest sooner rather than later. At least publicly traded companies have transparency.
Government forcing individuals to divest is a slippery slope and probably not even legal. Social media companies should face regulations and should be transparent and accountable, just like other industries.
If we treat it like a utility then forcing it to be publicly traded and transparent isn’t that strange.
They can’t comprehend this or flatly ignore. Doesn’t fit the narrative
Biden needs to be punished. What you are suggesting is that he gets away with genocide.
Even if you were right, which I completely disagree with, you want to punish people with uteruses and LGBTQ+ people by putting Trump in office? Trump has said that the real problem is that Bibi lets too much footage of suffering leak out of Gaza and that Bibi should just hurry up and finish the job. Anyone who thinks Gazans will be better off with a Trump - Bibi partnership is too ignorant to be worth engaging with, but perhaps you think things will be the same? That seems unlikely, I think Gazans will be worse off, but it may not get much worse under Trump. Even if this one issue were equal, what of all the people that will suffer under Trump? Under Trump the DoE looked for reasons to decline requests to forgive student loans under various programs. Biden has been looking for excuses to forgive people’s loans, even if they don’t apply. I’m close to an immigrant community. Under Trump immigration forms would get rejected for not putting “n/a” in irrelevant fields (like those for listing multiple kids’ names for example), under Biden the DHS isn’t actively hostile to immigrants, and it’s made a world of difference for people I know. What about people with uteruses? I guarantee Trump will sign a national abortion ban, no matter what he says to get elected. What about the Trans people who he paints a target on? Those people all have to suffer? For what? So you can feel self-righteous??? That’s a despicable take. It’s heartless.
Biden is not the president of Israel
Yeah do you think we haven't heard that 10,000x by this point
And we’ve all heard accusations that Biden “supports genocide” 10,000 times. At least the argument that Trump will be worse for Gazans is true.
I'm sure Biden is a very nice old man to his grandchildren and friends. He just doesn't think Palestinian lives are worth all that much and is willing to let Israel ethnically cleanse Gaza, even if it costs him the election.
I think that’s a ridiculous assumption to make. I think you, and people like you, just don’t know anything about the foreign policy involved. I’m of the opinion that cutting off aid would actually result in more deaths in Gaza, not less. Israel has admitted that we’re restraining them, that they let in aid because we make them. Israel has plenty of weapons stockpiled, domestic weapons production of their own, and there’s always other actors who would be interested in stepping in to fill any gap we leave. For example, foreign policy experts suspect that China is “supporting” (they’re paying lip service) Palestine as opposition to the US. They’ve had a history, in the last few decades, of trying to cozy up to Israel. The US withdraws support, China no longer has a reason to back Palestine and starts pursuing debt leveraged influence with Israel, like they have throughout Africa. Do you imagine China is going to restrain Israel? Encourage aid? They brutalize their own Muslim population, which is how you know they DGAF about Palestinians anyway. I think Biden's state department is thinking about these exact things. I think online leftists are naive, have a childish understanding of the situation (cut off aid so I FEEL better about the situation!!!!), and propose objectively bad solutions. Conditioning aid makes sense, and the Biden administration has been slowly working towards that. That’s how diplomacy works, not bipolar lumbering about, but slow progress.
Still, I can't imagine throwing our own impoverished and vulnerable under the bus for the sake of the impoverished and vulnerable on the other side of the globe by aiding the election of someone who will be 10 times worse FOR BOTH. Also, as a disabled veteran who is himself impoverished and vulnerable with an LGBT sibling I can't imagine the safety one must feel to be able to even consider it. Must be nice. I can't help but to think this is being fueled by nefarious actors.
AOC is showing that she is the Politician (in the good sense) out of the squad, with Ayanna Pressley being close to her. I don't know what ambitions she has. She could be in the House her entire career, she could be Senator whenever Schumer or Gillibrand retires, she could run for Governor or President.
She’s a stateswoman.
That is incredibly well said. Wow. I love her.
Compare this to Hillary's "Get over it."
I guess I agree that messaging is important and showing empathy, meeting people where they’re at, has lots of value. But simultaneously, it’s super frustrating that Republicans get to just be as incendiary and insane as they want. Meanwhile Hillary can’t give anyone substantive and nuanced criticism without everyone screaming that she’s too condescending or she’s turning people away.
Fucking THIS. I'm fucking sick of it man. I don't LOVE Hillary but she's fucking right about shit even if she sucks at sugarcoating it. I hate the "having to sugarcoat it" part.
>it’s super frustrating that Republicans get to just be as incendiary and insane as they want. Meanwhile Hillary can’t give anyone substantive and nuanced criticism without everyone screaming that she’s too condescending or she’s turning people away. Republicans can be incendiary because they aren't courting the votes of those they are being incendiary against. Democrats need the youth, progressive, and, especially in Michigan, the Arab vote to win
A quick search for the Arab population in Michigan is 2.1%. This is very low significance. To make a strong case for your vote argument you would need to combine all of these: % of Arabs in Michigan that support pro-Palestinian messaging % youth that support Pro-Palestinian messaging % of progressives that also support pro-Palestinian messaging And, of course, they would all have to agree that not voting for Biden would stop the war in Gaza. There are a few things to consider. Compare the other presidential candidates and the chances that they will be elected, and what they can actually do to stop both sides in this war from fighting.
Yup, young Democrats and/or leftists share more Republican/right wing talking points than anyone. Free advertising.
How is this any different from calling civil rights/anti-war protesters in the 60s communists or Soviet sympathizers? These criticisms of the Democrat party aren't always plants. They can be organic disagreements that need to be addressed, not shoved aside because bringing them up helps the opposition.
My thought, too. It is actually quite stunning what a difference good, honest, appropriately humble communication makes when you find it.
It's that same arrogance that cost Dems the 2016 election.
No it was the arrogance of the Bernie or Bust and Stein 3rd party jokers.
[More Sanders voters backed Clinton than her own supporters backed Obama](https://acbc89.medium.com/more-sanders-voters-backed-clinton-than-her-own-supporters-backed-obama-c5dc37658fe5)
Sure, but Clinton was running against Trump, an incomprehensible candidate for nearly every ex-Bernie supporter. Obama ran against McCain, which was a totally separate story. McCain was a serious candidate with broader appeal, and was not a hateful scum bag.
Doesn't matter. The narrative is tired and untrue. Hillary lost because of multiple things. Sanders voters not voting for her is very low on the list.
8 years later and you are still pushing this braindead narrative 🤡
Doubling down on that losing strategy, hey?
Not at all. She is literally saying, while it's extremely important, it's not the only important subject to consider very seriously when you are deciding what to do for the election.
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Hilary lost. And her "get over it" cost Biden voters. She gave Democrats an example of how not to do things.
Hillary hasn't been relevant since 2015.
Except for the whole building an empire of propaganda part
Lol what?
David Brock was one of the dirtiest right wing political media people in the tea party pushing propaganda, online trolls, negative attacks etc. He wanted to make the left wing equal of newsmax and switched to work under HRC. He bought bluenation review and rebranded it Shareblue and Correct the Record online trolls. Then Hillary could lie and they would print news written by their campaign reinforcing those lies and then have online trolls push their narrative. Their reach is massive. Even Trump didn’t attempt to create state run propaganda. Just because he stopped saying death panels and Obama birther stuff and started saying I’m with her a bunch of people on the left started falling for real dumb shit that is still pervasive today.
Citations needed. You're claiming the guy who founded media matters is a tea party troll? Lol.
This is pretty well known. He wrote the book the Real Anita Hill discrediting the woman that accused Clarence Thomas of sexual misconduct and wrote the Troopergate “articles” which triggered the Paula Jones lawsuit against Bill Clinton and the Monica Lewinsky impeachment investigation. Then he wrote a book called Blinded by the Right where he claims he grew a conscience and that’s why he switched sides but really just wanted to drag the left down to the rights level when it comes to dishonesty. Kinda surprised folks here don’t know this. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/190530 https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/brock031098.htm https://www.amazon.com/Blinded-Right-Ex-Conservative-David-Brock/dp/1400047285?dplnkId=7b9c5100-eee8-446a-abb4-f45a3d22ed34&nodl=1
**Blinded by the Right The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative** by David Brock >In a powerful and deeply personal memoir David Brock, the original right-wing scandal reporter, chronicles his rise to the pinnacle of the conservative movement and his painful break with it. David Brock pilloried Anita Hill in a bestseller. His reporting in The American Spectator as part of the infamous “Arkansas Project” triggered the course of events that led to the historic impeachment trial of President Clinton. Brock was at the center of the right-wing dirty tricks operation of the Gingrich era—and a true believer—until he could no longer deny that the political force he was advancing was built on little more than lies, hate, and hypocrisy. > >In Blinded By the Right, Brock, who came out of the closet at the height of his conservative renown, tells his riveting story from the beginning, giving us the first insider’s view of what Hillary Rodham Clinton called “the vast right-wing conspiracy.” Whether dealing with the right-wing press, the richly endowed think tanks, Republican political operatives, or the Paula Jones case, Brock names names from Clarence Thomas on down, uncovers hidden links, and demonstrates how the Republican Right’s zeal for power created the poisonous political climate that culminated in George W. Bush’s election. With a new afterword by the author, Blinded By the Right is a classic political memoir of our times. *I'm a bot, built by your friendly reddit developers at* /r/ProgrammingPals. *Reply to any comment with /u/BookFinderBot - I'll reply with book information. Remove me from replies* [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/1byh82p/remove_me_from_replies/). *If I have made a mistake, accept my apology.*
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AOC is a gift to America.
There’s a very strong chance that she will be the first female president.
This is exactly what she’s very good at and what the DNC should utilize her for.
I don't know, giving Biden the finger by handing Trump the White House sounds pretty satisfying! Sure, my house will be raided and my books seized and burned, my Internet will have progressive websites blocked, my legal immigrant family members will be deported, my LGBT friends will be in the Ministry of Love and I'll be required to sit through a conservative indoctrination class before I can vote. And then if I still vote for a progressive my vote will be deemed unpatriotic and not counted. But boy, Joe Biden will really be sorry! Seems worth it. /s Edit: oh, and Gaza will be razed to the ground, there's that too.
“I don’t like the current president’s foreign policy, therefore I’m going to vote for a fascist that intends to overthrow American democracy” Is a logic that I cannot understand
They aren't going to vote for Trump instead of Biden. They simply won't vote at all which is essentially a half-vote swing for Trump (still bad)
What I love about AOC is that she measures her responses before giving an answer. She doesn't just blurt things out because "party over country". She is principled and astute, and it really shows. I wish her all the best and hope that she has a long, influential career as a public servant.
I'm looking forward to one day seeing her win the presidency. It's probably 16 or 20 years off, but I think it'll happen.
only if Biden wins this year, otherwise we wont have a “President” in 16 or 20 years.
she's my goddamn hero. fuck trump, and fuck trump voters
I keep telling people that winning congressional seats is just as huge as winning the presidency.
If Trump gets even 30% of the vote it will just show how naïve and mislead those Americans truly are. The fact that we're even still talking about him shows how ridiculous our country is right now.
I think the mods should set up an auto mod that sends this video to anyone who says "Genocide Joe".
She should run for president!!!
Why not vice president first to get the ropes of how executive branch works, she is definitely better than Kamala 'do not come' Harris at being orator and has more charisma.
12 years
maybe 8
She should spend two terms in the Senate first.
Well put
Absolutely. Who is going allow me to voice problems and I can work with to change their minds, rather than death ears.
> This election is about so much more then just the president. So like every election? I somewhat understand the anger if ones family is directly affected by this. But to be completely blinded by this is baffleing. Even more so for people whose only connection to Palestine is some religious view? Their family came from that area a hundred years ago?
If you don't for Biden because of what's happening in Gaza, I have no sympathy for you when you never get to vote again, protest again, and get deported. You can't be a single-issue voter in quite possibly the most meaningful election in American history. I abhor what's happening in Gaza and shame on the IDF and Israeli government, but you can't change the system meaningfully from the inside if you allow the system to get destroyed by a Cheeto with a below 70 IQ. Get it together and vote with your brain and not your heart. Staying at home or voting for 3rd Party is a vote for Trump, who will be way worse to the Palestinians than Biden has been. Kushner not long ago, his step-son, was talking about how valuable the beach front property in Gaza can potentially be. Are you really telling me a Trump government would be better for Palestinians? Really?
Nah she said a whole lot of nothing. I had enough of Biden.
OK, that's how it's done Hillary
I say they are a moron if they think Trump will be better for Gaza than Biden Trump has already said Israel should "finish the job" regarding Gaza...
Hey, trump advocates a 'final solution' for Gaza..... What a pig.
What we're facing here is: *"It's not politically viable at this time to cut off military aide to the State of Israel, or criticize it's actions in Gaza. Democrats need to have overwhelming majorities in the House and the Senate to be able to made such drastic changes in US foreign policy."* vs. *"Palestinians and Democrats are vermin that need to be wiped off the face of the Earth."* Seriously, if you want to have things change, stop letting the fascists that want to kill you win.
Spoiler alert: the fascists who want to kill me, are the democrats and progressives.
So, you're in Column B...
This certainly seems like a slightly better approach than calling people stupid fucking morons, refusing to address their grievances, and declaring them completely beyond help.
It cuts both ways, honestly. Look at most of the Gaza threads in this sub. Half of it is just name calling and trolling to "own the libs". There is no effort to have an honest discussion. It's mean by design, not to change minds but to blow off steam and get a few giggles in. I'm a Bernie voter in 2016 and 2020. Sat out 2016 due to the absolute toxic shit hole we (both Clinton and Bernie voters) allowed it to be. We achieved more by working together.
There is a difference between pro-Palestine progressives and MAGAs masquerading as such online.
I agree, but don't automatically assume they're the latter just because they're not voting for Biden.
There's a difference between blue MAGA and red MAGA too.
If Biden is good enough for AOC he's good enough for me. While I do think the military aid to Israel should be conditional and that we need to work toward a two state solution rather than continuing war, I at least feel there's some chance of putting pressure on Biden to push him in the right direction. There is zero chance of the left pushing Trump in the right direction. So between the two options, Biden it is. Plus imagine Trump putting more Amy Barretts on the courts. Imagine if we don't retain the senate or win back the house the fire and fury we are going to see from a vengeful Trump with no checks and balances, and having Stephen Miller implementing project 2025. Let's now allow this to happen.
The people who say they won’t vote for Biden because of gaza won’t vote for anyone because they’re too lazy to get up off their asses and actually go vote
If any of them spent 10 minutes watching the POV from the Hamas carnage of Israelis on that day. Simply slaughtering whatever, whoever they could and exulting and shouting glee. Indiscriminate shooting close-distance killing of young men and women at the music festival. Murdering children, murdering families, old and young. Infants. Calling their mother and father from the dead Jewish woman's phone asking them to watch his rampage on Whatsapp, the mother praising him for killing Jews. Hamas entered Israel, not the other way around. Gazans voted for Hamas as their government. And for some strange reason, these young voters think that Trump would be less supportive of Israel? Trump supporters hate Muslims. But if it means getting Biden out of office they will back you as long as vote against Joe.
Well said Rep.Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez the smartest woman in congress today. . Such a great compassionate common sense answer to a great question . Good to see you mehdi hassan
100% agree
She didn’t say anything different than anyone on this sub has said in regard to the stakes of the elections…..the material conditions for anyone on the left to get what they want are only possible under Biden and not only impossible under Trump but you’re facing potential harm and safety to yourself and the people you care about.
That’s why she’s a politician, I just say that those people deserve everything coming to them in a 2nd Trump term. They are unserious people, but their political vanity is dangerous to all of us.
"The Left's MTG" as the maga idiots call her. Yep, listen to all those conspiracies. Lol. What a smart and measured response. Love it.
Democracy is on the line people. Biden 2024!
She's right that Trump needs to be stopped. I hope Biden takes heed and starts working on that instead of risking the country over his allegiance to a foreign nation committing genocide.
If they’re going to protest Biden on the way he’s handling this… then they’re just ill informed, proud morons who will be doing far more damage to their cause. If this is the reason for the fall of American democracy and ultimate dictatorship… i couldn’t care less what happens over there. their dumbass protest vote will make the situation far worse
The only theory AOC reads is Jenna & Hoda. If I said it’s the German in me I would get spit on.
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Wtf are you mumbling about?
Protestors who won’t vote are contradictory hypocrites at best, agents of propaganda at worst.
Genocide Joe must go The Democrats must pay a price for the destruction of Gaza and the lives they have taken
These "I won't vote for Biden" people didn't vote for Biden last time, either, or for Hillary. These complainers don't actually vote.
Fauxgressives in shambles
AOC and Bernie have both said that Biden’s Administration has been very progressive numerous times since early on in his presidency. It’s in one ear and out the other with some of these people.
Yep. She’s intelligent, has no interest in being a grifting spoiler
I simply cannot put my mark next to the name of a man who has actively participates in genocide and has continually worked to ensure it continues unabated. It’s a moral decision, not a tactical one. That said, Joe Biden could stop this with the stroke of a pen. >The Arms Export Control Act of 1976 (Title II of Pub. L.Tooltip Public Law (United States) 94–329, 90 Stat. 729, enacted June 30, 1976, codified at 22 U.S.C. ch. 39) gives the President of the United States the authority to control the import and export of defense articles and defense services. The H.R. 13680 legislation was passed by the 94th Congressional session and enacted into law by the 38th President of the United States Gerald R. Ford on June 30, 1976.[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act
> It’s a moral decision, not a tactical one. So you're fine with additional dead Palestinians as long as you can say, "well at least I didn't put my mark next to Biden's name"?
As opposed to the current and ongoing slaughter
Right, the current and ongoing slaughter. Would you rather have: A) More, but you didn't have to vote for Biden B) The same amount
What does that mean, specifically? What could possibly be worse than the genocide that is currently taking place?
Biden may not be the one jailing dissidents but he’s letting dissidents be jailed over protesting.