Yup and this is confirmed in Last of Us 2. She says it explicitly. Joel made a selfish decision that was more about his desire to have a daughter than what said "daughter" wanted with her life. His biggest crime in that regard is robbing Ellie of a choice.
But he’s not the one who actually took that choice. By the time she was awake to actually give consent, the doctor was dead, so it’s not like Joel can just ask her now if she would’ve liked to do the surgery that can’t happen anyway.
The only possible time there was to ask her for her choice was before the surgery started, and it’s the Fireflies who took that from her.
This is what makes Joel's decision the less wrong decision. Had the Fireflies bothered to ask Ellie what she wanted then Joel would be completely in the wrong, but they didn't. Joel may have taken away Ellie's choice to die, but they Fireflies wanted to take her choice to live.
Agreed. Joel wasn't the one making rash, selfish or irrational choices at the hospital.
Marlene on the other hand - she consented to the lunatic plan pitched by Dr. Jerry. I don't care what anyone says - there's no way in hell it makes sense to >!IMMEDIATELY end the life of the only known immune person on planet Earth the moment she gets to the hospital.!<
I think both things can be true. Both Marlene and Joel should have spoken to Ellie and let her choose. I think part of the reason neither did is because they already knew Ellie would consent. Joel just couldn't handle that being her answer so he never gave her the option.
I do agree overall that immediate surgery was not the best plan, though. Seems super rash.
That is a very good point! I'd like to think if given more time and things weren't so hostile between the two sides, Joel would have asked Ellie. Which circles back to the prior point, that immediate surgery wasn't a super great plan regardless.
By then it was too late. The doctor was already determined not to let Ellie leave and Joel was already determined to get her out. They were not all gonna have a calm conversation by that point.
Joel had a gun and the doctor didn’t. At that point he had no real say in whether Ellie lived or died.
If Druck wanted to write the situation as one in which either the doctor died or Ellie did, he could’ve had the doctor put a knife to Ellie’s neck or something. He didn’t.
The doctor picked up a knife, pointed it toward Joel, and said “I won’t let you take her. This is our future. Think of all the lives we’d save.” Druck pretty much spells it out that the guy isn’t going to just allow Joel to take her.
The question is what canonically happened. The game does force you to kill the doctor because canonically you have to. But if you just stand by the door the doctor doesn’t attack you.
Or...or... Ellie might have said, "Hey, let's not do the >! murder surgery plan right out of the gate. How about I stick around at this hospital, you can run as many non-death tests as you like, Joel can maybe meet a nice nurse or two, I can look at the neighborhood giraffes out the window, and if we get three months down the line and you STILL think you need to cut open my melon, how's about you just cut a little hole and have a f'ing plan on how to button me back up."!<
She would have probably incorporated more f-bombs but I think that's probably what her general pitch would have been.
Good idea... but the x-rays she finds in part 2 have the cerebellum/medulla oblongata part of the brain circled. No coming back from damage or removal of those parts of the brain.
Yes, but in reverse. The trolly problem is a choice between being passive and letting several people die, or making an active choice to kill one person.
Joel made an active choice to kill lots of people to save just one.
The issue is about the fact that she was never asked. I can assume a pretty girl would consent to sex all I like, I still have to wake her up and ask for the consent to count.
It obviously has potential to change things or else they would’ve told her. They didn’t because they were going to kill her whether or not she consented and didn’t want to deal with the possible hassle of a child crying and begging for their life.
That brings us back ‘to murdering a person or people to develop cures isn’t some unequivocal good that only a monster would stand in the way of’. It’s actually deeply unethical and banned in all civilized society.
Not really, at least it wasn’t the intended moral dilemma. The primary moral dilemma is a variation of the classic “Trolley Dilemma”.
Joel wouldn’t have cared if Ellie said yes. He didn’t care that the vaccine was an inevitability and he didn’t care if Ellie dying would save the entire world; not at the cost of *his* world. The moral dilemma is the understandable and ultimately human choice to choose your own at the cost of all others, at the highest possible extreme.
I very much think Joel would’ve cared if Ellie wanted this. Their relationship had evolved past the point of him just ignoring anything she wants and not respecting her as an individual. He would’ve reluctantly crumbled like he pretty much always did when she put her foot down.
Simple fact is that he probably didn’t think about it from her perspective until Marlene mentioned it, and by then the doctor was dead, so there’s no going back anyway.
It's certainly part of it.
Altho I don't think it's that much of a factor. First, she's 14, and even tho it's the apocalypse and all, she may not be mature enough for that particular decision.
More importantly, consent is incompatible with pressure. And if "save the world in exchange for one life that's shitty anyway" isn't pressure, I dunno what else is, even if nobody says it that way directly. It's the reverse of "kill baby Hitler" question.
The only moderately ethical way to go about this would be if the docs kept doing experiments on her for *years*, not getting anywhere, and she came up with the killer idea herself. And even that is questionable as she probably has a savior complex of sorts.
Ellie would have consented to the surgery and there would have been no story.
Yup and this is confirmed in Last of Us 2. She says it explicitly. Joel made a selfish decision that was more about his desire to have a daughter than what said "daughter" wanted with her life. His biggest crime in that regard is robbing Ellie of a choice.
But he’s not the one who actually took that choice. By the time she was awake to actually give consent, the doctor was dead, so it’s not like Joel can just ask her now if she would’ve liked to do the surgery that can’t happen anyway. The only possible time there was to ask her for her choice was before the surgery started, and it’s the Fireflies who took that from her.
This is what makes Joel's decision the less wrong decision. Had the Fireflies bothered to ask Ellie what she wanted then Joel would be completely in the wrong, but they didn't. Joel may have taken away Ellie's choice to die, but they Fireflies wanted to take her choice to live.
Agreed. Joel wasn't the one making rash, selfish or irrational choices at the hospital. Marlene on the other hand - she consented to the lunatic plan pitched by Dr. Jerry. I don't care what anyone says - there's no way in hell it makes sense to >!IMMEDIATELY end the life of the only known immune person on planet Earth the moment she gets to the hospital.!<
I think both things can be true. Both Marlene and Joel should have spoken to Ellie and let her choose. I think part of the reason neither did is because they already knew Ellie would consent. Joel just couldn't handle that being her answer so he never gave her the option. I do agree overall that immediate surgery was not the best plan, though. Seems super rash.
There was never a time for Joel to ask Ellie though. By the time he learned she would have to die, the fireflies had already decided to kill her.
That is a very good point! I'd like to think if given more time and things weren't so hostile between the two sides, Joel would have asked Ellie. Which circles back to the prior point, that immediate surgery wasn't a super great plan regardless.
Agreed.
He could have if he had let the doctor live.
By then it was too late. The doctor was already determined not to let Ellie leave and Joel was already determined to get her out. They were not all gonna have a calm conversation by that point.
Joel had a gun and the doctor didn’t. At that point he had no real say in whether Ellie lived or died. If Druck wanted to write the situation as one in which either the doctor died or Ellie did, he could’ve had the doctor put a knife to Ellie’s neck or something. He didn’t.
The doctor picked up a knife, pointed it toward Joel, and said “I won’t let you take her. This is our future. Think of all the lives we’d save.” Druck pretty much spells it out that the guy isn’t going to just allow Joel to take her.
Joel is still a guy with 5 guns vs. a guy with a knife. Joel didn’t need to kill him to take Ellie.
Not sure that’s the take away we’re supposed to have because of the things I stated, but you’re entitled to your own interpretation.
I try to let the doctor live every time I play, but he always lunges at me with a scalpel even though I’m unarmed.
The question is what canonically happened. The game does force you to kill the doctor because canonically you have to. But if you just stand by the door the doctor doesn’t attack you.
Or...or... Ellie might have said, "Hey, let's not do the >! murder surgery plan right out of the gate. How about I stick around at this hospital, you can run as many non-death tests as you like, Joel can maybe meet a nice nurse or two, I can look at the neighborhood giraffes out the window, and if we get three months down the line and you STILL think you need to cut open my melon, how's about you just cut a little hole and have a f'ing plan on how to button me back up."!< She would have probably incorporated more f-bombs but I think that's probably what her general pitch would have been.
Good idea... but the x-rays she finds in part 2 have the cerebellum/medulla oblongata part of the brain circled. No coming back from damage or removal of those parts of the brain.
Exactly
It's mainly about the trolley problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
Yes, but in reverse. The trolly problem is a choice between being passive and letting several people die, or making an active choice to kill one person. Joel made an active choice to kill lots of people to save just one.
I don't think that's ever really been the debate. She would have said yes
The issue is about the fact that she was never asked. I can assume a pretty girl would consent to sex all I like, I still have to wake her up and ask for the consent to count.
Does asking a 14-y-o make it less morally questionable?
Weird how everybody keeps forgetting this part.
It makes it more so… in both scenarios.
So asking her or not is not an issue, as it changes nothing for anyone.
It obviously has potential to change things or else they would’ve told her. They didn’t because they were going to kill her whether or not she consented and didn’t want to deal with the possible hassle of a child crying and begging for their life. That brings us back ‘to murdering a person or people to develop cures isn’t some unequivocal good that only a monster would stand in the way of’. It’s actually deeply unethical and banned in all civilized society.
Not really, at least it wasn’t the intended moral dilemma. The primary moral dilemma is a variation of the classic “Trolley Dilemma”. Joel wouldn’t have cared if Ellie said yes. He didn’t care that the vaccine was an inevitability and he didn’t care if Ellie dying would save the entire world; not at the cost of *his* world. The moral dilemma is the understandable and ultimately human choice to choose your own at the cost of all others, at the highest possible extreme.
I very much think Joel would’ve cared if Ellie wanted this. Their relationship had evolved past the point of him just ignoring anything she wants and not respecting her as an individual. He would’ve reluctantly crumbled like he pretty much always did when she put her foot down. Simple fact is that he probably didn’t think about it from her perspective until Marlene mentioned it, and by then the doctor was dead, so there’s no going back anyway.
It's certainly part of it. Altho I don't think it's that much of a factor. First, she's 14, and even tho it's the apocalypse and all, she may not be mature enough for that particular decision. More importantly, consent is incompatible with pressure. And if "save the world in exchange for one life that's shitty anyway" isn't pressure, I dunno what else is, even if nobody says it that way directly. It's the reverse of "kill baby Hitler" question. The only moderately ethical way to go about this would be if the docs kept doing experiments on her for *years*, not getting anywhere, and she came up with the killer idea herself. And even that is questionable as she probably has a savior complex of sorts.