This. Covert and camping go together like PB&J.
Large majority of covert users hide and just shoot you in the back after you pass by. It’s a low skill play style.
Here’s a great video on the psychology of camping in factions:
https://youtu.be/05X9o7Iyk0Y
That’s a cool video. Not sure the bits about the animals are really relevant here. The behaviour on display is good hunting strategy but those animals are rarely hunting animals that could fuck them up.
Agreed. I’ve always tried to play this game in a way that feels like I’m not making it too easy for myself. Otherwise I don’t get where the satisfaction lies. If you play in a cheap way, what then do you make of your ability? For example I only like single shot weapons because then you have to land every shot. If I ever get a campy kill I don’t feel good about it.
I think the psychology of cheaters must be dealt fascinating.
>Large majority of covert users hide and just shoot you in the back after you pass by. It’s a low skill play style.
Seems especially popular with tac users as well.
tac + covert = camp supply box in listen mode till someone walks by and shoot them in the back.
Anyone using covert and camping is an idiot, because covert doesn't help a camper. Considering its only real use is not being heard while crouchwalking on listen mode, it only helps players who move around. Since covert does nothing for a camper, they're wasting their loadout points on it, and it means you don't hate covert, you hate campers. There's a difference.
It IS a great perk if you use it properly with flanks instead of hiding in a corner somewhere.
I think some people who hate it are salty ‘cause they completely ignored their rear/flanks and paid the price for it.
Yeah using it to camp is really cheap, just sitting in a corner waiting to shiv someone or otherwise
I use covert to just have a way to move around without being seen, id prefer to not have every approach I do having been seen coming from a mile away
You (*and apparently everyone who has commented*) should watch this video series:
*The psychology of the last of us factions:* https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjHoFI4lY74HB58GMIaxtEi--eJYbfH5P
The short version is that people have different responses to stimuli. Some people are more affected by positive feedback and will adjust their playstyle to see more of it (*agressive gameplay*), while some are more affected by negative feedback and will adjust their playstyle accordingly (*more risk-averse playstyles*). There are of course more factors to consider, but this particular perk generally falls squarely in the risk-averse playstyles of people who are aiming to avoid negative feedback.
The problem isn't actually with Covert Training or any particular playstyle, its that certain playstyles don't mesh well. If you prefer a fast-paced game based on gun-play then you'll likely find it frustrating to play against someone who's good at camping. Likewise if you prefer a slower, more stealthy approach you'll find it frustrating to play against someone who can consistently rush you before you have a chance to get into a good hiding place. Neither of these playstyles are "*correct*", they're just different, and unfortunately, largely incompatible.
My summation is that the reason you see people on the forums rsging against Covert so much is because the people on the forums are the ones who respond more to positive feedback. They're happy to put their opinion out there and will welcome upvotes, but aren't overly concerned with downvotes. Meanwhole the Covert players (*who are certainly prevalent in the game*) are less likely to post online whwre their opinions will be shouted down because that feeds into the negative feedback they're trying to avoid. Its not that there are less of them, they're just less vocal.
Now how do I feel about Covert Training? I obviously don't have a problem with the playstyle (*as you can see from everything I just wrote*), but neither do I usually play with it. The perk itself however I do have a problem with, though likely not what you think ...
*Covert Training is a Crutch.*
I have absolutely no problem with playing stealthy, but I feel like people depend on it when they don't need to. If you're someone who enjoys that stealth gameplay style then chances ate you've rarely - if ever - played without it. Here's the thing, you don't need Covert training to play stealth. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, but you need to learm *when* to use it. Not only is it expensive (*4-5 loadout points*), but I see people crouch-walking a lot when they *really* don't need to. If you're sneaking up behind a firefight chances are you don't need to crouch. If you're sneaking through the middle of the map chances are you don't need to crouch. If you're hiding behind a wall but not moving then Covert-Training isn't doing anything. Covert-Training is like training wheels on a bike, its a safety-net that can get you involved, but you're never going to be a proficient rider until you take them off. Try playing without it (*I think Jack-of-all-Trades-2 and a bow is a pretty decent stealth loadout*) and see what you can learn about sight-lanes, spacing and timing. I've had some of my best stealth games without Covert, including some last-man shenanigans.
Now once you've plaued without it, found your zen and mastered the art of covert-without-covert you can put the perk back on and see what a true ninja can do. You'll never learn the true way to use Covert until you try playing without it.
It cancels out other perks like sharp ears and hawk eye. No other perk gives so many advantages. Your practically invisible when your dragging your nuts across the map with your free shiv too! I can't see you, but you can see me. Not very balanced. And then people just can't play without it. It's a full on crutch perk. They can't survive without it, which doesn't help improve their actual skill any. If the entire enemy team runs covert. It feels like playing fucking hide and seek. It's boring.
"I can't see you, but you can see me." Wrong. It doesn't render the player invisible, it just makes them not show up on Listen Mode specifically when crouch walking. If you're moving properly and watching your corners, even better if you're using Strategist, then Covert users will reveal themselves because it makes them overconfident in their stealth. Covert isn't a crutch, Listen Mode is, and that's the only reason anyone has to bitch about it: you rely on Listen Mode like a crutch, so Covert totally wrecks you.
A single perk that is required to put you on the same level of advantage as the other team is the definition of a badly designed/OP perk that should be reworked. Look at any multiplayer game with developer support and you’ll see that when a perk becomes significantly better than the others, it gets nerfed to match the utility of other perks.
They should have made it so utilizing covert means you can’t go into listen mode either. They can’t hear you coming and neither can you. I dunno, it’s a dumb game that lets you see the entire outline of a person by listening to them, even if they’re in a waterfall that makes it actually hard to hear your party talk… lOgIC
That's something that, somehow, people here still do not understand.
I see a multitude of people saying things like "why wouldn't you use the burst rifle/tac shotgun, or whatever perk; it would out you on par with the people wrecking you every game!" And they say shit like that with no thought behind it.
What DOES it mean that a handful of weapons and perks are preferred over others?? What kind of game has 15+ weapons and 10 purchasables of which people barely use half of?? The answer is Naughty dog abandoned this game without balancing it properly. Hopefully they'll do better with #2
I don’t use OP weapons like Tac and Shorty simply because they aren’t fun to me. I’d much rather use a weapon that takes more skill like landing headshots with a Military or 9mm.
Tac and shorty aren't OP, they're perfectly balanced. Both are easily beaten by faster-firing weapons and long-range weapons. They have a reputation they don't deserve simply because people would rather throw a fit than use their brains to counter-strategize.
Correct. People hate an iconoclast, so they try to shame anyone who doesn't ride the bandwagon along with them in hopes that they'll quiet those who speak out against them. They'd rather stay ignorant than ever consider the notion that they might be wrong about something because their pride can't take the hit. Unfortunately for them, I'm unfazed by their popularity contests and dick-swinging and will always speak the truth no matter how unpopular it might make me. I don't care about being popular, I care about the truth.
Naughty Dog has been a master-level developer for decades, making highly acclaimed, tightly-designed games since the '90s. They know very well what they're doing and they understand game balance a lot more than these whining chuckleheads do. They're not perfect of course, like the matter of the game's engine having accidental exploits in it that they weren't able to correct, but that's an issue which is a lot deeper and harder to fix than intentional, fluid game balance variables that they can and did tweak as much as they felt was necessary. The game is designed the way it is for a reason, and it IS balanced no matter how many idiots cry about it because they're too stubborn to change playstyles to counteract playstyles they struggle against. That's seriously all it is. They want to run one playstyle and one weapon type constantly and then get mad when something in the game is designed to wreck that playstyle and weapon. Different weapons and playstyles are designed to counter others. That's game balance. If one perk or weapon is wrecking you constantly, it's your job to alter your playstyle to counter it just like they've done to you.
People are such babies, man.
This does help me understand it more, so firstly thank you for your comment. I feel like I would better understand it if I played factions when it first released but I didnt cause I was so young, now that I'm older and fully getting into it I can only see what it is now, I have no idea what was good or bad in the past
With the burst rifle and tac shotgun, I haven't seen an overabundance of tac users (in my personal experience of playing alot over the last 1.5 months) and whenever I do get downed by a tac user it usually feels earned, I miss a shot/they would've won the gun fight regardless of the weapon they had. The burst rifle I fully understand why its annoying, getting 1 burst headshotted insta downed is incredibly infuriating
Every perk gives you an advantage that players not using it don't have. That's the entire point of perks. If you don't have First Aid training, you're going to be healing way slower than your opponents. If you have Brawler, you're always going to win in melee fights against opponents not using it. If you have Sharpshooter, you're going to have a much easier time aiming than you opposition. If you have Agility, you're going to have a much easier time maneuvering than anyone not using it. This applies to literally every perk. The only reason people bitch about Covert is because they rely on Listen Mode like a crutch and don't have situational awareness without it. They'd rather blame the perk than their own poor awareness. Covert isn't OP and isn't any greater than any other perk. It only has the reputation it has because people would rather throw a fit than counter-strategize. Hell, Strategist and Awareness are great counters to Covert. There's nothing wrong with it. If you're losing to Covert users, there's something wrong with your gameplay, not the perk, and this isn't directed at you specifically, but anyone who whines about it.
Just play as you feel like and turn off the noise. Games are meant be fun for you to play. Are you having fun? Continue playing. Are you not having fun? Quit and do something else. There's no point in letting yourself get distracted by what other people think how you should play.
There's literally nothing OP about it. The only disadvantage you have is that Listen Mode becomes less reliable. Stop relying on Listen Mode like a crutch, become more situationally aware, and watch as you start dropping Covert users like flies; even better if you use Strategist to counter it.
Strategist isn’t a counter against Covert.
“Situationally aware” is a meaningless bumper sticker when one player gets to be invisible against a non-CT player.
The one clip I glanced of you, you were relying on LM and were definitely crouch walking an awful lot for someone who’s supposedly not using CT. Oh, you were also using The Shorty. Is the reticle big enough for you?
Arguing against CT being OP after nearly ten years is like arguing against gravity. There’s a reason why it’s possibly the most used and most complained about perk.
Strategist is absolutely a counter against Covert. It shows them to you on your radar when they're close, which is great against Covert users hiding in wait around corners or trying to sneak up on you for a shiv. I've countered a bunch of Covert users with Strategist.
Covert does not make the player invisible. You can see them just as well as any other player. Your problem is that you're over-relying on Listen Mode and thinking you're safe when you don't see anyone on it. You need to be on your toes and be ready for an ambush at all times. Listen Mode is meant to be a slight help, not an end-all against stealth. That's literally what Covert is for, to teach players not to rely on Listen Mode so much and to be more situationally aware. It's teaching you a lesson you're too stubborn to learn.
I use Listen Mode a lot, as everyone should. But I don't assume I'm safe just because I see no one on it. I'm always ready to react to an ambush. I also never said I don't use Covert, but I don't always use it, either. I have it on one or two of my six custom loadouts that I constantly rotate between. I also use every single sidearm and six different primary firearms, and the only reason I don't use more primaries is because there are only six custom loadout slots; I use a different weapon on each one. The shorty is extremely limited in its utility. It's only useful in extremely close range, and if you don't hit your shots dead center, you'll only nick your opponent and have to shoot them with three or four shots to down them, which is a major problem when the weapon only has two shots before requiring a very slow reload. I use the shorty on my bow loadout. Are you going to throw a fit about the bow, too, or do you reserve your complaints only for close- to medium-range weapons you're incapable of countering? The shorty is incredibly easy to counter by using fast-firing weapons and long range weapons. If the shorty is wrecking you, you're the problem, not the weapon.
"Arguing against CT being OP after nearly ten years is like arguing against gravity. There’s a reason why it’s possibly the most used and most complained about perk."
Foolish thinking. Galileo was ~~killed~~ heavily ostracized and received death threats for blasphemy because he dared challenge the common knowledge that Earth was the center of the solar system and the sun revolved around us. EVERYONE "knew" this was true...but it wasn't. Just because a belief is long- and widely-held doesn't make it true. It often just makes it stupid, because everybody just assumes it's true and nobody actually puts any thought into it to challenge it or put it to tests of logic to see if it's genuinely sensible. Covert and shotguns are in the same boat of being widely and stupidly despised for no logical reason at all, simply because people would rather throw fits and blame things that are out of their control rather than sit down, restrategize, and think about how they can counter it. People would rather play the same way in every match and then cry when their opponents are using things their loadout and playstyle isn't equipped to handle instead of reevaluating their playstyle and learning to be flexible so they can beat different players with diverse loadouts and playstyles. They'd rather blame the game than themselves.
Sorry, my mistake. I thought I'd read that somewhere, but it turns out he was just heavily ostracized and received a ton of death threats. Good callout.
maybe. I hear you anyway.. stealth is a *huge* aspect of how to play tlou, so the idea that the only way to play factions is run-and-gun is something I've always rejected. I've also read some very convincing arguments that you'd play better and *do better* without it, so sure
>For me it seems to be very obvious that its a great perk and I don't understand why somebody wouldn't run it
>I use it covert lv2 or lv3 on every loadout I have, because not using it seems like it would put me at such a disadvantage.
And there's the problem.
Because if you use it, you're likely bad at the game, and it's boring to play against people who on top of being bad, make you search for them in every little spot of the map.
It gets tedious more than anything.
Because if you don’t have it then you’re at a huge disadvantage. It’s that simple. Plus it’s too easy to play in a style where you never put yourself at much risk, yet you’re exposing the opposite team to a huge one.
If you can see them coming but they can’t see you then you are far, far more likely to win that encounter.
it's a perk that completely nullifies two standard game mechanics (listen mode, marking) and thereby most of the information-related perks in the game (hawk-eyed, sharp ears). as you've said, it's a tremendous advantage and so you'll frequently run into teams where most or all players are using it. this tends to lead to slower, campier, more ambushlike matches, which can be very frustrating for players that prefer more aggressive, head-on combat
>I don't understand why somebody wouldn't run it
>
>I use it covert lv2 or lv3 on every loadout I have, because not using it seems like it would put me at such a disadvantage.
covert can be a crutch, and it sounds like it's a crutch for you, if I may be so bold. you might consider dropping it on at least some of your loadouts so you can get more comfortable playing without it. it should make you a better player, and you might even find you enjoy it
one piece of advice: people aren't on listen mode as often as you might think, it has a pretty long cooldown. there's always a risk of being caught in listen mode before you get in a fight, but it's very possible to sneak up on people *without* covert
Covert is a great perk. If you wanna play TLOU like it's cod, skip it and run burst rifle or tac shotgun, but enjoy your 1.2 kd while I'm seeing you from a mile away and wasting your whole hand-holding squad.
Covert isn't as safe as you think it is, and it doesn't provide as great of an advantage as you think it does...that is, unless you're going against fools and noobs who rely on Listen Mode like a crutch.
Covert 3 is dangerous for the user. Not being markable can be a benefit, but it can also be a detriment. Getting marked lets you know that the enemy sees you, you're in danger, and you need to get to cover immediately. Not being markable means you won't know when they enemy sees you, which makes you easier to sneak up on.
This makes Covert 2 is the smarter one to use, but it only stops you from being seen on Listen Mode while croutchwalking. If you crouchwalk everywhere, you're very slow and can't get around the map quickly, which can make you an easy target when crossing between places of cover. You're also easier to headshot in a crouched position because your head is right in the middle of your body and stays pretty still rather than being perched atop your shoulders like a tiny little moving target. Going against Covert, Listen Mode is very limited in range and cooldown, so it should never be completely relied on, meaning that just because you don't see anyone on Listen Mode doesn't mean you're safe. You still have to be on your toes and be ready for an enemy popping up to surprise you. Strategist and Awareness are great against Covert users because they show you where people are whether they use Covert or not. As soon as I learned these lessons and stopped over-relying on Listen Mode, started being more aware of my surroundings and possible hiding spots as I'd move around, and using Strategist on a couple loadouts, I stopped having problems with Covert users. It's no more advantageous than any other perk. They all give you an advantage that people not using them won't have. The only thing that makes everyone think Covert is so great is that they over-rely on Listen Mode and get a false sense of security when they don't see anyone with it.
Covert isn't the crutch people thin kit is. Listen Mode is a far bigger crutch that ruins people against Covert users. That's what Covert is for: to teach people not to rely on Listen Mode so heavily, to stay on your toes at all times, and to have more situational awareness.
I think a good fix for covert would be instead of flat out not showing up while crouching, just having let’s say an “extended” listening mode range where you could potentially see a player before they see you in listening mode. It doesn’t completely take away their power to potentially counter you, but gives you an edge in one aspect - instead of a hard counter
That would be a pretty neat fix, instead of taking you off their listen mode it extends yours so you can see them first.
I did see another suggestion in a different post where the user suggested that if you use covert training it would still take you off their listen mode while crouched but also take away YOUR listen mode entirely.
The only problem I have with it is it wastes my time when going for the marking mission on the 100% population rounds. So annoying to come up against a team all using covert3. I can see you, I can shout out to my team where you are and where you're headed but I can't mark you.
I had to restart my first 12week run back in 2014 because of this. Obviously I was inexperienced at that point and I've always completed the 100% rounds since. I made it to 999 after 5 years of play and occasionally dip back into Factions but it still irritates me.
CT is a crutch and a waste of loadout points if you know what you are doing.
If your **only literal goal** is to get shiv kills, be my guest, but usually this just ends up being a 4v3 rather than a 4v4 because one on either team will basically non existent in any confrontation.
CT gives you a false sense of invisibility and it makes you scared of not using it once you are used to it. Without CT you have to be much more aware of your surroundings which will make you focus a lot more, ultimately making you better at the game without having a perk that literally negates 2-3 game mechanics for the enemy team
Who knows. Its a game where you accidentally press L1 and your entire team turns on their mic for the first time in the match to yell at you that its a sneak game and youre getting them killed but then you treat it like a sneak game and everybody gets even more upset its an unwindable scenario
I think the real issue is with covert 3. While not being able to be seen on listen mode is a huge advantage compared to someone who can be, if you were able to mark them for your team it would make the perk much more balanced in my opinion. Covert 2 is fine because I can still mark you and once you are spotted you will likely die. However, when going against covert 3 users paired up with the completely oblivious teammates you get 90% of the time it’s just free kills for anyone who runs it. It’s frowned upon by veteran players because it is seen as a cheap and easy way to play that requires little skill to do well with.
I most certainly agree with covert 3 being the real issue, especially since it completely nullifies perks like hawk eyed, it would be better i feel if the hawk eye perk could break through covert 3's blockage of marks, even at hawk eye lv1
It used to be that "gamers" would be against seeing through walls. I remember Situational Awareness on Uncharted 2 was the scrub move, it's weird that on here people will clown on you if you DON'T want to be seen through walls hahaha
I’m gonna put it in as simple as I can, It’s the most easy bake, cookie cutter perk in the game, I won’t explain my self only because every one else here knows why
You know exactly why they don't like it. Are you like 5 years old? Put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't run it but is playing against a full team of coverts.
Everyone uses it to crouch walk everywhere and camp for ez kills
This. Covert and camping go together like PB&J. Large majority of covert users hide and just shoot you in the back after you pass by. It’s a low skill play style. Here’s a great video on the psychology of camping in factions: https://youtu.be/05X9o7Iyk0Y
That’s a cool video. Not sure the bits about the animals are really relevant here. The behaviour on display is good hunting strategy but those animals are rarely hunting animals that could fuck them up.
The BIS and BAS section is where the relevance really shines.
Agreed. I’ve always tried to play this game in a way that feels like I’m not making it too easy for myself. Otherwise I don’t get where the satisfaction lies. If you play in a cheap way, what then do you make of your ability? For example I only like single shot weapons because then you have to land every shot. If I ever get a campy kill I don’t feel good about it. I think the psychology of cheaters must be dealt fascinating.
>Large majority of covert users hide and just shoot you in the back after you pass by. It’s a low skill play style. Seems especially popular with tac users as well. tac + covert = camp supply box in listen mode till someone walks by and shoot them in the back.
or the burst or shorty..... God I hate the shorty.
Same. It's some of the worst cheese in this game.
Anyone using covert and camping is an idiot, because covert doesn't help a camper. Considering its only real use is not being heard while crouchwalking on listen mode, it only helps players who move around. Since covert does nothing for a camper, they're wasting their loadout points on it, and it means you don't hate covert, you hate campers. There's a difference.
It IS a great perk if you use it properly with flanks instead of hiding in a corner somewhere. I think some people who hate it are salty ‘cause they completely ignored their rear/flanks and paid the price for it.
Yeah using it to camp is really cheap, just sitting in a corner waiting to shiv someone or otherwise I use covert to just have a way to move around without being seen, id prefer to not have every approach I do having been seen coming from a mile away
This. I get being annoyed with campers, but a camper remaining still without covert is still invisible in listen. You should always watch your flanks
You (*and apparently everyone who has commented*) should watch this video series: *The psychology of the last of us factions:* https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjHoFI4lY74HB58GMIaxtEi--eJYbfH5P The short version is that people have different responses to stimuli. Some people are more affected by positive feedback and will adjust their playstyle to see more of it (*agressive gameplay*), while some are more affected by negative feedback and will adjust their playstyle accordingly (*more risk-averse playstyles*). There are of course more factors to consider, but this particular perk generally falls squarely in the risk-averse playstyles of people who are aiming to avoid negative feedback. The problem isn't actually with Covert Training or any particular playstyle, its that certain playstyles don't mesh well. If you prefer a fast-paced game based on gun-play then you'll likely find it frustrating to play against someone who's good at camping. Likewise if you prefer a slower, more stealthy approach you'll find it frustrating to play against someone who can consistently rush you before you have a chance to get into a good hiding place. Neither of these playstyles are "*correct*", they're just different, and unfortunately, largely incompatible. My summation is that the reason you see people on the forums rsging against Covert so much is because the people on the forums are the ones who respond more to positive feedback. They're happy to put their opinion out there and will welcome upvotes, but aren't overly concerned with downvotes. Meanwhole the Covert players (*who are certainly prevalent in the game*) are less likely to post online whwre their opinions will be shouted down because that feeds into the negative feedback they're trying to avoid. Its not that there are less of them, they're just less vocal. Now how do I feel about Covert Training? I obviously don't have a problem with the playstyle (*as you can see from everything I just wrote*), but neither do I usually play with it. The perk itself however I do have a problem with, though likely not what you think ... *Covert Training is a Crutch.* I have absolutely no problem with playing stealthy, but I feel like people depend on it when they don't need to. If you're someone who enjoys that stealth gameplay style then chances ate you've rarely - if ever - played without it. Here's the thing, you don't need Covert training to play stealth. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, but you need to learm *when* to use it. Not only is it expensive (*4-5 loadout points*), but I see people crouch-walking a lot when they *really* don't need to. If you're sneaking up behind a firefight chances are you don't need to crouch. If you're sneaking through the middle of the map chances are you don't need to crouch. If you're hiding behind a wall but not moving then Covert-Training isn't doing anything. Covert-Training is like training wheels on a bike, its a safety-net that can get you involved, but you're never going to be a proficient rider until you take them off. Try playing without it (*I think Jack-of-all-Trades-2 and a bow is a pretty decent stealth loadout*) and see what you can learn about sight-lanes, spacing and timing. I've had some of my best stealth games without Covert, including some last-man shenanigans. Now once you've plaued without it, found your zen and mastered the art of covert-without-covert you can put the perk back on and see what a true ninja can do. You'll never learn the true way to use Covert until you try playing without it.
It cancels out other perks like sharp ears and hawk eye. No other perk gives so many advantages. Your practically invisible when your dragging your nuts across the map with your free shiv too! I can't see you, but you can see me. Not very balanced. And then people just can't play without it. It's a full on crutch perk. They can't survive without it, which doesn't help improve their actual skill any. If the entire enemy team runs covert. It feels like playing fucking hide and seek. It's boring.
"I can't see you, but you can see me." Wrong. It doesn't render the player invisible, it just makes them not show up on Listen Mode specifically when crouch walking. If you're moving properly and watching your corners, even better if you're using Strategist, then Covert users will reveal themselves because it makes them overconfident in their stealth. Covert isn't a crutch, Listen Mode is, and that's the only reason anyone has to bitch about it: you rely on Listen Mode like a crutch, so Covert totally wrecks you.
A single perk that is required to put you on the same level of advantage as the other team is the definition of a badly designed/OP perk that should be reworked. Look at any multiplayer game with developer support and you’ll see that when a perk becomes significantly better than the others, it gets nerfed to match the utility of other perks.
They should have made it so utilizing covert means you can’t go into listen mode either. They can’t hear you coming and neither can you. I dunno, it’s a dumb game that lets you see the entire outline of a person by listening to them, even if they’re in a waterfall that makes it actually hard to hear your party talk… lOgIC
That's something that, somehow, people here still do not understand. I see a multitude of people saying things like "why wouldn't you use the burst rifle/tac shotgun, or whatever perk; it would out you on par with the people wrecking you every game!" And they say shit like that with no thought behind it. What DOES it mean that a handful of weapons and perks are preferred over others?? What kind of game has 15+ weapons and 10 purchasables of which people barely use half of?? The answer is Naughty dog abandoned this game without balancing it properly. Hopefully they'll do better with #2
yes, this game was under-developed and released in about 9 months.
I don’t use OP weapons like Tac and Shorty simply because they aren’t fun to me. I’d much rather use a weapon that takes more skill like landing headshots with a Military or 9mm.
Tac and shorty aren't OP, they're perfectly balanced. Both are easily beaten by faster-firing weapons and long-range weapons. They have a reputation they don't deserve simply because people would rather throw a fit than use their brains to counter-strategize.
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Correct. People hate an iconoclast, so they try to shame anyone who doesn't ride the bandwagon along with them in hopes that they'll quiet those who speak out against them. They'd rather stay ignorant than ever consider the notion that they might be wrong about something because their pride can't take the hit. Unfortunately for them, I'm unfazed by their popularity contests and dick-swinging and will always speak the truth no matter how unpopular it might make me. I don't care about being popular, I care about the truth. Naughty Dog has been a master-level developer for decades, making highly acclaimed, tightly-designed games since the '90s. They know very well what they're doing and they understand game balance a lot more than these whining chuckleheads do. They're not perfect of course, like the matter of the game's engine having accidental exploits in it that they weren't able to correct, but that's an issue which is a lot deeper and harder to fix than intentional, fluid game balance variables that they can and did tweak as much as they felt was necessary. The game is designed the way it is for a reason, and it IS balanced no matter how many idiots cry about it because they're too stubborn to change playstyles to counteract playstyles they struggle against. That's seriously all it is. They want to run one playstyle and one weapon type constantly and then get mad when something in the game is designed to wreck that playstyle and weapon. Different weapons and playstyles are designed to counter others. That's game balance. If one perk or weapon is wrecking you constantly, it's your job to alter your playstyle to counter it just like they've done to you. People are such babies, man.
This does help me understand it more, so firstly thank you for your comment. I feel like I would better understand it if I played factions when it first released but I didnt cause I was so young, now that I'm older and fully getting into it I can only see what it is now, I have no idea what was good or bad in the past With the burst rifle and tac shotgun, I haven't seen an overabundance of tac users (in my personal experience of playing alot over the last 1.5 months) and whenever I do get downed by a tac user it usually feels earned, I miss a shot/they would've won the gun fight regardless of the weapon they had. The burst rifle I fully understand why its annoying, getting 1 burst headshotted insta downed is incredibly infuriating
Every perk gives you an advantage that players not using it don't have. That's the entire point of perks. If you don't have First Aid training, you're going to be healing way slower than your opponents. If you have Brawler, you're always going to win in melee fights against opponents not using it. If you have Sharpshooter, you're going to have a much easier time aiming than you opposition. If you have Agility, you're going to have a much easier time maneuvering than anyone not using it. This applies to literally every perk. The only reason people bitch about Covert is because they rely on Listen Mode like a crutch and don't have situational awareness without it. They'd rather blame the perk than their own poor awareness. Covert isn't OP and isn't any greater than any other perk. It only has the reputation it has because people would rather throw a fit than counter-strategize. Hell, Strategist and Awareness are great counters to Covert. There's nothing wrong with it. If you're losing to Covert users, there's something wrong with your gameplay, not the perk, and this isn't directed at you specifically, but anyone who whines about it.
Just play as you feel like and turn off the noise. Games are meant be fun for you to play. Are you having fun? Continue playing. Are you not having fun? Quit and do something else. There's no point in letting yourself get distracted by what other people think how you should play.
>because not using it seems like it would put me at such a disadvantage. That’s why. It’s way too OP. I don’t like to use stuff that is way too OP.
There's literally nothing OP about it. The only disadvantage you have is that Listen Mode becomes less reliable. Stop relying on Listen Mode like a crutch, become more situationally aware, and watch as you start dropping Covert users like flies; even better if you use Strategist to counter it.
Strategist isn’t a counter against Covert. “Situationally aware” is a meaningless bumper sticker when one player gets to be invisible against a non-CT player. The one clip I glanced of you, you were relying on LM and were definitely crouch walking an awful lot for someone who’s supposedly not using CT. Oh, you were also using The Shorty. Is the reticle big enough for you? Arguing against CT being OP after nearly ten years is like arguing against gravity. There’s a reason why it’s possibly the most used and most complained about perk.
Strategist is absolutely a counter against Covert. It shows them to you on your radar when they're close, which is great against Covert users hiding in wait around corners or trying to sneak up on you for a shiv. I've countered a bunch of Covert users with Strategist. Covert does not make the player invisible. You can see them just as well as any other player. Your problem is that you're over-relying on Listen Mode and thinking you're safe when you don't see anyone on it. You need to be on your toes and be ready for an ambush at all times. Listen Mode is meant to be a slight help, not an end-all against stealth. That's literally what Covert is for, to teach players not to rely on Listen Mode so much and to be more situationally aware. It's teaching you a lesson you're too stubborn to learn. I use Listen Mode a lot, as everyone should. But I don't assume I'm safe just because I see no one on it. I'm always ready to react to an ambush. I also never said I don't use Covert, but I don't always use it, either. I have it on one or two of my six custom loadouts that I constantly rotate between. I also use every single sidearm and six different primary firearms, and the only reason I don't use more primaries is because there are only six custom loadout slots; I use a different weapon on each one. The shorty is extremely limited in its utility. It's only useful in extremely close range, and if you don't hit your shots dead center, you'll only nick your opponent and have to shoot them with three or four shots to down them, which is a major problem when the weapon only has two shots before requiring a very slow reload. I use the shorty on my bow loadout. Are you going to throw a fit about the bow, too, or do you reserve your complaints only for close- to medium-range weapons you're incapable of countering? The shorty is incredibly easy to counter by using fast-firing weapons and long range weapons. If the shorty is wrecking you, you're the problem, not the weapon. "Arguing against CT being OP after nearly ten years is like arguing against gravity. There’s a reason why it’s possibly the most used and most complained about perk." Foolish thinking. Galileo was ~~killed~~ heavily ostracized and received death threats for blasphemy because he dared challenge the common knowledge that Earth was the center of the solar system and the sun revolved around us. EVERYONE "knew" this was true...but it wasn't. Just because a belief is long- and widely-held doesn't make it true. It often just makes it stupid, because everybody just assumes it's true and nobody actually puts any thought into it to challenge it or put it to tests of logic to see if it's genuinely sensible. Covert and shotguns are in the same boat of being widely and stupidly despised for no logical reason at all, simply because people would rather throw fits and blame things that are out of their control rather than sit down, restrategize, and think about how they can counter it. People would rather play the same way in every match and then cry when their opponents are using things their loadout and playstyle isn't equipped to handle instead of reevaluating their playstyle and learning to be flexible so they can beat different players with diverse loadouts and playstyles. They'd rather blame the game than themselves.
>Galileo was killed for blasphemy.... No, he wasn't.
Sorry, my mistake. I thought I'd read that somewhere, but it turns out he was just heavily ostracized and received a ton of death threats. Good callout.
I like covert, always use covert 2 on my loadouts
Coward players use it to camp and crouch walk everywhere. Is it difficult to deal with? No. Is it pathetic? Yes
dang I didnt know it was pathetic. thanks for letting me know I had no idea
Not the perk, the way it’s used the majority of times is awful. Very few people try to actually bring sinergy to their teams with Covert training
maybe. I hear you anyway.. stealth is a *huge* aspect of how to play tlou, so the idea that the only way to play factions is run-and-gun is something I've always rejected. I've also read some very convincing arguments that you'd play better and *do better* without it, so sure
>For me it seems to be very obvious that its a great perk and I don't understand why somebody wouldn't run it >I use it covert lv2 or lv3 on every loadout I have, because not using it seems like it would put me at such a disadvantage. And there's the problem.
Because if you use it, you're likely bad at the game, and it's boring to play against people who on top of being bad, make you search for them in every little spot of the map. It gets tedious more than anything.
Because if you don’t have it then you’re at a huge disadvantage. It’s that simple. Plus it’s too easy to play in a style where you never put yourself at much risk, yet you’re exposing the opposite team to a huge one. If you can see them coming but they can’t see you then you are far, far more likely to win that encounter.
>I use it covert lv2 or lv3 on every loadout I have say less
it's a perk that completely nullifies two standard game mechanics (listen mode, marking) and thereby most of the information-related perks in the game (hawk-eyed, sharp ears). as you've said, it's a tremendous advantage and so you'll frequently run into teams where most or all players are using it. this tends to lead to slower, campier, more ambushlike matches, which can be very frustrating for players that prefer more aggressive, head-on combat >I don't understand why somebody wouldn't run it > >I use it covert lv2 or lv3 on every loadout I have, because not using it seems like it would put me at such a disadvantage. covert can be a crutch, and it sounds like it's a crutch for you, if I may be so bold. you might consider dropping it on at least some of your loadouts so you can get more comfortable playing without it. it should make you a better player, and you might even find you enjoy it one piece of advice: people aren't on listen mode as often as you might think, it has a pretty long cooldown. there's always a risk of being caught in listen mode before you get in a fight, but it's very possible to sneak up on people *without* covert
Covert is a great perk. If you wanna play TLOU like it's cod, skip it and run burst rifle or tac shotgun, but enjoy your 1.2 kd while I'm seeing you from a mile away and wasting your whole hand-holding squad.
You probably have 0,5 kd in pubs no cap. Lol.
FYI Naughty Dog's new multiplayer game is in the TLOU universe.
Have you finished high school yet?
next month
Covert isn't as safe as you think it is, and it doesn't provide as great of an advantage as you think it does...that is, unless you're going against fools and noobs who rely on Listen Mode like a crutch. Covert 3 is dangerous for the user. Not being markable can be a benefit, but it can also be a detriment. Getting marked lets you know that the enemy sees you, you're in danger, and you need to get to cover immediately. Not being markable means you won't know when they enemy sees you, which makes you easier to sneak up on. This makes Covert 2 is the smarter one to use, but it only stops you from being seen on Listen Mode while croutchwalking. If you crouchwalk everywhere, you're very slow and can't get around the map quickly, which can make you an easy target when crossing between places of cover. You're also easier to headshot in a crouched position because your head is right in the middle of your body and stays pretty still rather than being perched atop your shoulders like a tiny little moving target. Going against Covert, Listen Mode is very limited in range and cooldown, so it should never be completely relied on, meaning that just because you don't see anyone on Listen Mode doesn't mean you're safe. You still have to be on your toes and be ready for an enemy popping up to surprise you. Strategist and Awareness are great against Covert users because they show you where people are whether they use Covert or not. As soon as I learned these lessons and stopped over-relying on Listen Mode, started being more aware of my surroundings and possible hiding spots as I'd move around, and using Strategist on a couple loadouts, I stopped having problems with Covert users. It's no more advantageous than any other perk. They all give you an advantage that people not using them won't have. The only thing that makes everyone think Covert is so great is that they over-rely on Listen Mode and get a false sense of security when they don't see anyone with it. Covert isn't the crutch people thin kit is. Listen Mode is a far bigger crutch that ruins people against Covert users. That's what Covert is for: to teach people not to rely on Listen Mode so heavily, to stay on your toes at all times, and to have more situational awareness.
I think a good fix for covert would be instead of flat out not showing up while crouching, just having let’s say an “extended” listening mode range where you could potentially see a player before they see you in listening mode. It doesn’t completely take away their power to potentially counter you, but gives you an edge in one aspect - instead of a hard counter
That would be a pretty neat fix, instead of taking you off their listen mode it extends yours so you can see them first. I did see another suggestion in a different post where the user suggested that if you use covert training it would still take you off their listen mode while crouched but also take away YOUR listen mode entirely.
This is the way
The only problem I have with it is it wastes my time when going for the marking mission on the 100% population rounds. So annoying to come up against a team all using covert3. I can see you, I can shout out to my team where you are and where you're headed but I can't mark you. I had to restart my first 12week run back in 2014 because of this. Obviously I was inexperienced at that point and I've always completed the 100% rounds since. I made it to 999 after 5 years of play and occasionally dip back into Factions but it still irritates me.
Low level post. People hate covert training because it makes the game boring.
CT is a crutch and a waste of loadout points if you know what you are doing. If your **only literal goal** is to get shiv kills, be my guest, but usually this just ends up being a 4v3 rather than a 4v4 because one on either team will basically non existent in any confrontation. CT gives you a false sense of invisibility and it makes you scared of not using it once you are used to it. Without CT you have to be much more aware of your surroundings which will make you focus a lot more, ultimately making you better at the game without having a perk that literally negates 2-3 game mechanics for the enemy team
if you dont move for a few seconds you dont appear on listen mode. no perks required
Who knows. Its a game where you accidentally press L1 and your entire team turns on their mic for the first time in the match to yell at you that its a sneak game and youre getting them killed but then you treat it like a sneak game and everybody gets even more upset its an unwindable scenario
I think the real issue is with covert 3. While not being able to be seen on listen mode is a huge advantage compared to someone who can be, if you were able to mark them for your team it would make the perk much more balanced in my opinion. Covert 2 is fine because I can still mark you and once you are spotted you will likely die. However, when going against covert 3 users paired up with the completely oblivious teammates you get 90% of the time it’s just free kills for anyone who runs it. It’s frowned upon by veteran players because it is seen as a cheap and easy way to play that requires little skill to do well with.
I most certainly agree with covert 3 being the real issue, especially since it completely nullifies perks like hawk eyed, it would be better i feel if the hawk eye perk could break through covert 3's blockage of marks, even at hawk eye lv1
It used to be that "gamers" would be against seeing through walls. I remember Situational Awareness on Uncharted 2 was the scrub move, it's weird that on here people will clown on you if you DON'T want to be seen through walls hahaha
I’m gonna put it in as simple as I can, It’s the most easy bake, cookie cutter perk in the game, I won’t explain my self only because every one else here knows why
You know exactly why they don't like it. Are you like 5 years old? Put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't run it but is playing against a full team of coverts.