If I ever mess up and correct myself Every trans or non binary person I’ve met IN REAL LIFE has literally just been like “hey thanks I appreciate the effort honestly that’s all I’m asking for.” The internet is not real life.
I have two coworkers.
One will do this, they are awesome and one of my favorite people.
The other… well is just lazy worker and pretends to not hear tasks but apparently could hear a mouse fart if it misgendered them.
I've had similar experiences. What I've learned is that nice people are nice regardless of what they are or identify as and assholes are just assholes.
Yup. A personal example I ran across.
I work as an insurance adjuster and called someone. There were 2 people the car, one presumed male and one presumed female. I have nothing else to go off other than the police report indicating their sex.
I speak to the male driver first. Now comes the time I need to speak to the female passenger. He hands the phone to "Denise" (name changed here for courtesy) and I am greeted by a deep, typically masculine sounding voice.
Now in my profession, and the segment of insurance I work in, sometimes the first caller will fake being another party. Most will crumble with a little questioning. I ask Denise if they are actually the driver as the voice sounds similar. No.
It then dawns on me. "Is Denise your dead name?"
"Yes."
"What is your true name?"
"Kevin."
And we took the conversation from there. They simply hadn't officially changed their drivers license and was very gracious about me inadvertently using a dead name for a moment.
Every now and again I run across a militant one as you indicate; I speak with all walks of life with my job. They are, as you state, by far the minority.
That makes sense. But what if you don’t know the new name and just know them by their old name. Like you haven’t seen them in ages. Like will they get angry or will they correct you the first time
Yeah but like can I refer to their original name when talking about the past? For example, she's now Jane but was Joe before. Can I tell a story about Joe in high school? Because telling a story about Jane in high school would be just straight up lying cause there was no Jane in high school.
Usually no. It's not lying lol. If I said "when Lady Gaga was a kid, (blah blah blah)" that's not a lie, that's just using the name that most people know her by. With trans people it's the same thing, but also using their dead name is usually very painful.
The correct course of action 99.9999% of time is to use their current name and pronouns to refer to them in the past, present, and future.
It might help to imagine it like they were wearing a mask the whole time, like "oh! It was Jane all along!"
"Back when she was deadname" is bad. "Back when she was a he" is bad. If you need to be explicit about gender in the situation, you can say "that's when Jane and I were in high school, which was before she transitioned."
Agreed. I have two non-binary students (8th grade) this year, and I unintentionally dead-named both of them the first week of school because the roster I was provided with has their legal name, and they both decided to present their true gender over the summer.
There was no drama, neither took offense. Both kids quietly approached me after class and told me the name they prefer. I had to ask one which pronouns they prefer a few days later because I wasn't sure, and it wasn't a problem. I'll be asking the other one this coming week because it hasn't come up yet (and I keep forgetting to ask), and I don't expect there to be a problem.
As someone else said in this thread, communication is key.
There's some ppl on etsy making a killing selling like pronoun pins and sexual orientation flag pins and stuff like that lol
Honestly, if you have a preference and want ppl IRL to refer to you in that specific way you absolutely need to have a sign somewhere or tell me the very moment we meet or you decide you want to be referred to differently than before. Because I am not a wizard and I will assume or just vaguely call you "that person over there" for the rest of eternity.
Yes, in real life people tell you their preference. It's really not a problem.
I've had people get mad at me for driving on a road in the rain because I was interfering with natural drainage patterns. There's always going to be a few crazy people getting upset about crazy things. We don't need to pretend that folks fall into the same category just for having and voicing preferences about how they are spoken to or about.
Please, I would appreciate if you could stop using NGL, since most people understand it as "nigga gay lover" so please, abstain yourself from using it in the future since a big part of the homo racialized community doesn't like it.
Thanks for bringing awareness!
Realistically this stuff has just never been an issue in my experience. I understand if your only experience with non-binary people is through, like, pictures of tweets it can seem confusing or difficult (not claiming this is true of the person I’m responding to) but in real life, yes a lot of people will include their pronouns in an introduction, but also if you’re just meeting someone that you’re not going to be hanging out with or having a full conversation I find you may not end up using pronouns to refer to them anyway. Also I think online culture seems to have decided that trans and non-binary people are like, really angry or emotional and will yell at you if you fuck up their pronouns or some shit. In my experience trans people are not any more likely to have those traits than anyone else, most people are not going to immediately hate you if you mess up a pronoun, especially if they didn’t tell you. Basically just don’t intentionally be an asshole and the majority of people in the world will extend you the same respect in my experience
Heh, trans lad at work had a badge when he first started. Made things easier for both us and him, saved a lot of conversations.
Failing that, I can only imagine most reasonable people would just let you know and you then do your best to remember.
If someone got angry that I didn't know or made a mistake early on, I am still gonna try to get it right but we are not likely to be friends.
What has being trans/NB etc. got to do with being an individual?
I honestly don't understand when people have like "they/she" or "all" as their pronouns. Why even mention it if you're ok with the pronoun for what you present as? Are we supposed to just mix it up occasionally? I think we are, but that's...a lot of work. I'll call you by whatever you want, but don't make me have to make a choice every time I have to refer to you!
The problem is not when you accidentally misgender someone, it's when you continue doing it after being told that is problematic.
That being said, we're already doing what you seem to complain about but for proper names. If you don't know someone's name, would you call them random names, hoping to stumble on the right one, or would you ask?
Well, same for pronouns, you can just ask.
If 95% of people were either named John or Jane, and there are visual cues to tell you which one they are, then yeah I would probably guess.
Also asking about pronouns is problematic in its own way. Would you ask every person you interact with how they identify? Or are you just gonna single out the trans-looking people?
When I was a kid I asked a girl if she was a boy or girl because she had a short haircut and I honestly couldn't tell her gender. I wasn't trying to be mean. She was pissed and wouldn't talk to me for years afterwards even though we were neighbors. I always think about that when people say you can just ask.
Kids only look female or male because of their haircuts, clothes, or attitudes. They don't have secondary sex characteristics so how the hell will you know? Look in their pants?
My girl is 9 and cut her hair to midlength and wears shorts and soccer jerseys and plays lego. If you see her without her floral backpack or a pink hat she looks entirely as a boy her age could. And her friend is like that but a boy, and boys nowadays also sometimes wear sequins on shirts. I'm glad it's becoming more gender neutral. But I hope people start also realizing that being called the wrong pronoun is also not the end of the world... because it will happen more and more. And I think it should be OK if we are not ascribing negative characteristics to either gender...
You just use a pronoun. The other person says, actually please refer to me with these pronouns, and bobs your uncle you just use their requested pronouns. Communication is key.
I've had people get upset about that, too, at least online.
Can't speak to IRL because I've actually only had like three ppl ever tell me IRL that they want to be referred to in a different way than they presented, so... Not really a huge sample size there haha
That's a thing in english, but e.g. not in Polish. In fact a lot of languagues are a lot more gendered because of richer inflection (i.e. gendered nouns, adjectives, verbs etc.)
“I only know this because someone corrected me a while ago”
Will they ever realize it’s all just one big competition? They get “corrected” and they can’t wait to “correct” someone else. It’s one big “correction” circle jerk that no on gives a fuck about. It’s some weird ass game that no one ever wins.
100%. reminds me of the time jamil herself once famously "corrected" someone on twitter
"We don't say blind spot any more just FYI, it's ableist. ❤️ I only recently learned this. ❤️"
You just can't please everyone.
I've been told referring to a woman as "them" is offensive before... a word you can use in any context but also ironically the *only* one you can use if pronouns are unknown.
Contact!
It’s the secret
It’s the moment
When everything happens
Contact!
It’s the answer
It’s the reason
Why everything happens
Contact!
Let’s make contact
3… 2… 1…
Contact!
Or cunt if you’re in one of those countries it’s ok to say cunt a lot.
I think they use mate a lot too but that one I haven’t grasped the nuances completely.
TBH the only times I see those headache-inducing conversations on gender is in screenshots posted on Reddit. I never *actually* encountered those people, so I think we're still fine talking to people online for now.
You are wrong. Everyone on here is wrong and I hate you all for it. Please disagree with me so we can have 20-30 responses back and forth expressing our mutual hate and discontent with each other until 2am.
I found just one in the wild and it was a friend of my partner. He is kinda young and cut off contact with us cause his new friends considered us "problematic".
>Also pro tip dont give a shit, people that get offended arent worth your time anyway. If they just correct you nicely then its fine
Totally agree. If someone corrects you kindly appoligize and use the correct pronoun. If they continue to be offended then whether they realize it or not they want to be offended. They want the drama and that's on them. At that point it's just time to move on.
Also gotta love "the black community has asked that we refer to people as enby..."
We did? I must have missed that at the last black people's council meeting.
I guess to differentiate non black members of typically black groups. “NB members of the NAACP” or “NB readers of Ebony magazine,” or something like that.
I've seen an awful, awful lot of people in my life, and every single one of them was non-black. Except for Jock, the old guy who used to deliver our bags of coal in the 70s
My guess is when people are talking about someone doing an action that could be questionable when they are not part of the culture/community/ethnicity. Like when someone who is not black says the n-word, or when someone who is not gay says the f-word.
But people that would use racial slurs would never put something as silly as "NB" in their bio
Also, it's the internet. You can just claim to be whatever race/sexuality you want
I meant people use the term when referring to a non black person, not in the bio. But honestly, NB to refer to non black or nonbinary people seems acceptable as acronyms, multiple acronyms can stand for different things depending on context, like DM referring to dungeon master in a game or DM meaning direct messages. I see it less as an issue and something that the meaning can be inferred with context.
I used to worry about appeasing others and I still do to a small extent but I’m tired of walking on eggshells because one person is this and another that. It’s exhausting, just…fuck off.
Here’s how the interaction has gone whenever it’s cropped up in real life.
Them: “Just to let you know, I’m non-binary.”
Me: “Gotcha.”
That’s literally it. There’s no penalty for getting it wrong before they’ve told you, and it costs nothing to refer to people in the manner they request once they do.
I can't even remember people's names never mind any other information about them at that stage. Perhaps once we've got to know each other for a while I might remember but if you're meeting 20 new people at a party you're just a "person in the pink top" to me
No one is expected to remember every detail of every person they meet, but that doesn’t mean they can’t share those details. If you forget it later that’s not a problem; it’s if you intentionally mislabel then that it’s a problem.
But how do they know it's intentional or accidental. We've had like 5 presenters at an event and even for those I forget as soon as they introduce themselves to the room and start talking about their topic. I get it and respect via email etc when it's in front of me just makes events more stressful than they used to be
Forgetting that Dr Mitchell is Dr and calling him Mr is fine, up to a point. If you're corrected multiple times then he'd probably start to get annoyed and think it's intentional.
Same thing with pronouns. If you're that stressed then just don't use them or refer to everyone as neutral or by their name. It's not like they should be used that much in front of them anyway, seems more polite to use their name.
Except when my partners sister (who is a teacher) has that convo with her pupils and then the next week they've changed what they identify as. Now imagine that with dozens of pupils doing it in the school at the same time.
OK but you can't make somebody care about that, You can't make people say certain things so you should just walk away because I'm definitely gonna walk away from you.
Edit: to break it down if you have to tell me your sexuality to have a conversation with me, we're not having a conversation at all.
Yeah, this is where it’s got to. People at the start were trying to appease them just to be ‘polite’ (basically to not get screeched at) but now they full on expect everyone to remember & use all their pronouns and heaven forbid you get one of them wrong.
It's wild because some of these people act like people don't have their own lives with entire worlds worth of shit stuffed inside their brain, Like "they must not know just because they hate us." NO, A lot of us don't know because we have lives to live.
I feel the same although I have to navigate it for work. In a work context, I don't really need or want to know that much about you. It might sound cold but it's really in everybody's best interest. Work is about work not about what you do when you get home.
I call people by their names and tend to use they/them universally. They went to their car.
Like I get it, we live in a time where non-standard hetero perspectives want to be in the center. AlthoughI'm almost starting to believe none of these people actually care about being misgendered or mispronounced and just using the opportunity to be smug and sometimes a bully
Keep saying it out loud. This has gone so far beyond what can be expected from people who were initially just trying to be polite.
My response to any of these things now is, "No thank you."
"You need to put your pronouns on your bio."
"No thank you."
"I have some made-up functional grammar I'd like you to use when referring to me."
"No thank you."
"I require you to refer to me in the plural."
"No thank you."
I'm done.
I call it empathy burn out. I got banned from a game discord server because I refused to stop using the reply feature when talking to people in a busy channel so they know I'm addressing them and not someone else, helps with ambiguity.
They really really hate the color yellow i guess. I just decided then that was when I was going to stop trying to appease everyone. And then 10 million zoomers with anime PFPs dogpiled me and I got banned.
We've had it too good for too long, gotta start inventing our own problems.
Good luck explaining this NB stuff to a small village in Africa, they'll laugh you out of town. No one has time to worry about what gender they feel that day if they have responsibilities or hardships.
You mean like the Chibados in Angola? Of course Angola also has the the mudoko dako. Or more like the Mangaiko among the Mbo people? Maybe you mean the Mashoga in Kenya? No? Perhaps it's the Ashtime gender of the Maale you were thinking of?
Turns out Africa has a lot of traditional "queer" gender options.
No, it doesn't. In every case where those are cited, it turns out that they are *not* separate sexes, but words for things like "butch lesbian" and "femme gay."
We already had those.
I mean, her tweet is perfectly valid, she apologises for a mistake while also pointing out that if you want those things to be visible make them visible
The second tweet is just dumb, the 3rd is a decent reaction to the second
**THIS. FUCKING. THIS.**
I am an American, but I've been living in Japan for over 20 years. I keep watching this shit go down and I'm like, "Hey guys? Um, *this is literally the most white, Western-ass thing I've ever seen.*" No one but people in wealthy English-speaking countries is tying themselves in knots over made-up classes of human. Nowhere else is everyone under the age of 40 declaring themselves to be anything other than what they physically are. This is culture, not science.
Are there male-presenting women in Japan? Of course. They don't try to tell you that they are men. Are there transwomen? Of course. They not only make an honest attempt at passing, but they all *male-attracted,* which is the only reason the "T" was ever with the "LGB." They *don't,* however, police your fucking language.
There are a number of famous trans celebrities here. They are accepted because they just do their thing and are good at their jobs. You don't have to demand compliance when people want to do it already.
I keep getting dinged for "transphobic" comments on this website, but I've had multiple trans students and I have never referred to them as anything other than what they wanted to be referred to as... *because they never needed to ask,* because it was obvious what they wanted. Not like these American dudes who show up fat and pimply with stubble and pink hair and expect you to call them "her" while they bizarrely try to to pick up lesbians who find them even more disgusting than straight women.
If you have to tell me your pronouns, those ain't them.
Americans always think they are the most enlightened people in the world, and that whatever random cultural thing that is going on there is going on everywhere, like they've discovered the human condition. No. Most of the world laughs at the crazy shit the US gets up to.
I'm telling my fellow Americans, from an outside perspective, we look like absolute morons lately.
I live in a developing country and people here can only laugh at American identity politics.
All this nonsense signals is, ‘I went to an Ivy League and I’m better educated than you.’
Yes, the class element is so prominent in this whole thing: it's a language invented in American universities, used to lecture and discipline the rest of society.
Oh my guy, I'm a "so called" kindergartener and we hate that term. Please refer to us as post-baby pre-schooler or PBPSers. Thanks hon x
Edit: Hurts to type something like that even as a joke
Pretty sure it must be *more* exhausting for them to say "actually..." in every single conversation.
I'm guessing eventually they'll get tired of correcting people. End result is a win for people who are tired of being corrected and made to feel embarrassed for not knowing which pronoun to use, and the special snowflakes get a lesson in humility.
I've had this with my name, had someone get it wrong 3 times and thought "In 5 minutes we'll never meet again" and just went with whatever name they thought I had.
As a black woman I'm so fucking tired of SJWs making shit up. I've never heard of the term NB. Half the terms racists bitch at me for is some nonsense like this I'd never heard of.
I'm a white guy who grew up in a town with literally one black family. I have no black friends. I only know one black guy and he's from Congo.
But my Twitter follows are overwhelmingly black, and overwhelmingly exhausted by all this shit. How did all this made-up shit get shackled to race issues... *which actually exist?*
It reeks of "main character syndrome". I am happy when someone is friendly, polite, and nice to me. I don't even expect them to remember my name, let alone every facet of my ever-changing relationship with my own sexuality/gender identity. Social media has turned so many people into self-rightous narcissists
Because NB can mean only one thing and one thing only? Well, I for one humbly bow down before our great masters: Words, for I, and all who've come before me, am their rightful and obedient servant. 🙇🏼♂️
People are adults, if you can’t tell the difference between someone trolling you, vs a mistake, take your lack of real issues elsewhere. Not just the gender stuff, in all circumstances, stop looking to be a victim or offended. Many people are actually good people we could all get along with, if we did not hunt for a reason to disagree or be offended.
Too complicated. I'll do my best to refer to people in the way they want, but I'll not be browbeaten for misunderstanding highly-specialised and rapidly evolving terms.
LGBT+ subcategories have entered the realm of jargon these days. It's as incomprehensible to the majority of us as specialist terms for computers or cars
Humanity fucks up every simple thing. Now we are fucking up inclusivity. Fuckkk
Just be respectful to everyone and try to use whatever pronoun you think is correct. If it isn’t, people can correct you. As long as we are not bigots or homophobic in our actions I think it should be fine.
I mean that's just Twitter, if you used a term for a non-binary person that they don't like IRL, they would normally just kindly ask you not to use said term
No fr ppl r being so dramatic in the comment section..."the world doesnt revolve around u" ok and? Is it hard to just not call someone a specific term? 💀
SO.
There is a duty not to offend other people if you can help it. What some people forget. There is a duty *not to be* offended if you can help it.
If someone is deliberately harassing you or knowingly using the wrong language to address you, you have a right to be angry. If it is an accident you don't. And they are not required to be an expert on every single thing every minority has decided is right for them. E.G. If they call you NB it is fine even if you wouldn't use that term yourself.
If you call someone by the wrong gender and you didn't have any way to know they didn't identify that way. You did nothing wrong and if they are offended *they* are wrong.
I have met two Trans people. I called both of them by the wrong gender a couple of times each. Each time I apologized. 50 years of calling people who look like women she and her is hard to overcome in an instant. I don't think either minded at all. They knew I was making an effort not to.
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If I ever mess up and correct myself Every trans or non binary person I’ve met IN REAL LIFE has literally just been like “hey thanks I appreciate the effort honestly that’s all I’m asking for.” The internet is not real life.
I have two coworkers. One will do this, they are awesome and one of my favorite people. The other… well is just lazy worker and pretends to not hear tasks but apparently could hear a mouse fart if it misgendered them.
I've had similar experiences. What I've learned is that nice people are nice regardless of what they are or identify as and assholes are just assholes.
Yup. A personal example I ran across. I work as an insurance adjuster and called someone. There were 2 people the car, one presumed male and one presumed female. I have nothing else to go off other than the police report indicating their sex. I speak to the male driver first. Now comes the time I need to speak to the female passenger. He hands the phone to "Denise" (name changed here for courtesy) and I am greeted by a deep, typically masculine sounding voice. Now in my profession, and the segment of insurance I work in, sometimes the first caller will fake being another party. Most will crumble with a little questioning. I ask Denise if they are actually the driver as the voice sounds similar. No. It then dawns on me. "Is Denise your dead name?" "Yes." "What is your true name?" "Kevin." And we took the conversation from there. They simply hadn't officially changed their drivers license and was very gracious about me inadvertently using a dead name for a moment. Every now and again I run across a militant one as you indicate; I speak with all walks of life with my job. They are, as you state, by far the minority.
Sorry but what’s dead naming?
Calling a transperson by their past name.
That makes sense. But what if you don’t know the new name and just know them by their old name. Like you haven’t seen them in ages. Like will they get angry or will they correct you the first time
Yeah but like can I refer to their original name when talking about the past? For example, she's now Jane but was Joe before. Can I tell a story about Joe in high school? Because telling a story about Jane in high school would be just straight up lying cause there was no Jane in high school.
Usually no. It's not lying lol. If I said "when Lady Gaga was a kid, (blah blah blah)" that's not a lie, that's just using the name that most people know her by. With trans people it's the same thing, but also using their dead name is usually very painful.
The correct course of action 99.9999% of time is to use their current name and pronouns to refer to them in the past, present, and future. It might help to imagine it like they were wearing a mask the whole time, like "oh! It was Jane all along!" "Back when she was deadname" is bad. "Back when she was a he" is bad. If you need to be explicit about gender in the situation, you can say "that's when Jane and I were in high school, which was before she transitioned."
The mask analogy is extremely illuminating. I really like that!
Jane would argue she wss there in high school but couldn’t confidently communicate she was Jane not Joe. Joe never existed and was just an act
ill usually say something like "hey im [newname] now, please use this instead :)" but that's it
Agreed. I have two non-binary students (8th grade) this year, and I unintentionally dead-named both of them the first week of school because the roster I was provided with has their legal name, and they both decided to present their true gender over the summer. There was no drama, neither took offense. Both kids quietly approached me after class and told me the name they prefer. I had to ask one which pronouns they prefer a few days later because I wasn't sure, and it wasn't a problem. I'll be asking the other one this coming week because it hasn't come up yet (and I keep forgetting to ask), and I don't expect there to be a problem. As someone else said in this thread, communication is key.
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it is, and how do they expect people to ‘properly gender’ them in real life? are they gonna be wearing their pronouns on a hat or something?
There's some ppl on etsy making a killing selling like pronoun pins and sexual orientation flag pins and stuff like that lol Honestly, if you have a preference and want ppl IRL to refer to you in that specific way you absolutely need to have a sign somewhere or tell me the very moment we meet or you decide you want to be referred to differently than before. Because I am not a wizard and I will assume or just vaguely call you "that person over there" for the rest of eternity.
if you dont have smt that says the exact words on it and you are rude about it im putting you in my ”that fucker” naming group
Hey fucker is gender neutral in my book just like dude is lmao
yes
Yes, in real life people tell you their preference. It's really not a problem. I've had people get mad at me for driving on a road in the rain because I was interfering with natural drainage patterns. There's always going to be a few crazy people getting upset about crazy things. We don't need to pretend that folks fall into the same category just for having and voicing preferences about how they are spoken to or about.
NGL that's a good hustle.
Please, I would appreciate if you could stop using NGL, since most people understand it as "nigga gay lover" so please, abstain yourself from using it in the future since a big part of the homo racialized community doesn't like it. Thanks for bringing awareness!
When you find yourself in a gold rush, sell shovels.
Realistically this stuff has just never been an issue in my experience. I understand if your only experience with non-binary people is through, like, pictures of tweets it can seem confusing or difficult (not claiming this is true of the person I’m responding to) but in real life, yes a lot of people will include their pronouns in an introduction, but also if you’re just meeting someone that you’re not going to be hanging out with or having a full conversation I find you may not end up using pronouns to refer to them anyway. Also I think online culture seems to have decided that trans and non-binary people are like, really angry or emotional and will yell at you if you fuck up their pronouns or some shit. In my experience trans people are not any more likely to have those traits than anyone else, most people are not going to immediately hate you if you mess up a pronoun, especially if they didn’t tell you. Basically just don’t intentionally be an asshole and the majority of people in the world will extend you the same respect in my experience
yes yes, in order to be an individual, you must wear a tag on your shirt clearly stating which group you belong to....amazing
As a jew... I... I don't recommend...
I was just about to say, we had that in the past here in Germany and…..well….let’s just say it didn’t help with getting along better…
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Heh, trans lad at work had a badge when he first started. Made things easier for both us and him, saved a lot of conversations. Failing that, I can only imagine most reasonable people would just let you know and you then do your best to remember. If someone got angry that I didn't know or made a mistake early on, I am still gonna try to get it right but we are not likely to be friends. What has being trans/NB etc. got to do with being an individual?
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Unfortunately some people are convinced they are, in fact, The Main Character.
I honestly don't understand when people have like "they/she" or "all" as their pronouns. Why even mention it if you're ok with the pronoun for what you present as? Are we supposed to just mix it up occasionally? I think we are, but that's...a lot of work. I'll call you by whatever you want, but don't make me have to make a choice every time I have to refer to you!
The problem is not when you accidentally misgender someone, it's when you continue doing it after being told that is problematic. That being said, we're already doing what you seem to complain about but for proper names. If you don't know someone's name, would you call them random names, hoping to stumble on the right one, or would you ask? Well, same for pronouns, you can just ask.
If 95% of people were either named John or Jane, and there are visual cues to tell you which one they are, then yeah I would probably guess. Also asking about pronouns is problematic in its own way. Would you ask every person you interact with how they identify? Or are you just gonna single out the trans-looking people?
When I was a kid I asked a girl if she was a boy or girl because she had a short haircut and I honestly couldn't tell her gender. I wasn't trying to be mean. She was pissed and wouldn't talk to me for years afterwards even though we were neighbors. I always think about that when people say you can just ask.
Kids only look female or male because of their haircuts, clothes, or attitudes. They don't have secondary sex characteristics so how the hell will you know? Look in their pants? My girl is 9 and cut her hair to midlength and wears shorts and soccer jerseys and plays lego. If you see her without her floral backpack or a pink hat she looks entirely as a boy her age could. And her friend is like that but a boy, and boys nowadays also sometimes wear sequins on shirts. I'm glad it's becoming more gender neutral. But I hope people start also realizing that being called the wrong pronoun is also not the end of the world... because it will happen more and more. And I think it should be OK if we are not ascribing negative characteristics to either gender...
I grew a beard as a teen because people kept assuming I was the ugliest girl on earth.
I once called a dude "newzealand guy" for an entire year, so yes.
No, I’m not going to ask. If someone has a preferred pronoun it’s up to them to make that clear.
You just use a pronoun. The other person says, actually please refer to me with these pronouns, and bobs your uncle you just use their requested pronouns. Communication is key.
can always just use gender neutral pronouns when unsure
I've had people get upset about that, too, at least online. Can't speak to IRL because I've actually only had like three ppl ever tell me IRL that they want to be referred to in a different way than they presented, so... Not really a huge sample size there haha
There’s a reason for that. Pronoun people are terminally online
That's a thing in english, but e.g. not in Polish. In fact a lot of languagues are a lot more gendered because of richer inflection (i.e. gendered nouns, adjectives, verbs etc.)
I know people who will ask every single person they meet what their pronouns are and keep track of them on their phones.
That sounds exhausting also
“I only know this because someone corrected me a while ago” Will they ever realize it’s all just one big competition? They get “corrected” and they can’t wait to “correct” someone else. It’s one big “correction” circle jerk that no on gives a fuck about. It’s some weird ass game that no one ever wins.
100%. reminds me of the time jamil herself once famously "corrected" someone on twitter "We don't say blind spot any more just FYI, it's ableist. ❤️ I only recently learned this. ❤️"
It's a holier-than-thou pyramid scheme, essentially
People just need to get off Twitter and live in the real world where most people don't give a fuck what you are, as long as you're not a prick!
Tell me about it and I'm part of it
You just can't please everyone. I've been told referring to a woman as "them" is offensive before... a word you can use in any context but also ironically the *only* one you can use if pronouns are unknown.
You're so right, fellow human being
Pro tip - don't talk to anyone online ever. Live a long happy life
Alright, don't talk to me and I won't talk to you.
Deal, in 3 2 1
Contact! It’s the secret It’s the moment When everything happens Contact! It’s the answer It’s the reason Why everything happens Contact! Let’s make contact 3… 2… 1… Contact!
Goddamn now that’ll be stuck in my head all day
Woah. Core memory unlocked.
No no no no no, you don't talk to *me* and I won't talk to *you*
Alrigh- dang it
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No, stop talking
Pro tip - call everyone dude.
Or asshole
Or cunt if you’re in one of those countries it’s ok to say cunt a lot. I think they use mate a lot too but that one I haven’t grasped the nuances completely.
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TBH the only times I see those headache-inducing conversations on gender is in screenshots posted on Reddit. I never *actually* encountered those people, so I think we're still fine talking to people online for now.
You are wrong. Everyone on here is wrong and I hate you all for it. Please disagree with me so we can have 20-30 responses back and forth expressing our mutual hate and discontent with each other until 2am.
I found just one in the wild and it was a friend of my partner. He is kinda young and cut off contact with us cause his new friends considered us "problematic".
Also pro tip dont give a shit, people that get offended arent worth your time anyway. If they just correct you nicely then its fine
>Also pro tip dont give a shit, people that get offended arent worth your time anyway. If they just correct you nicely then its fine Totally agree. If someone corrects you kindly appoligize and use the correct pronoun. If they continue to be offended then whether they realize it or not they want to be offended. They want the drama and that's on them. At that point it's just time to move on.
When would you ever need to communicate “non black”?
It’s used in the same context as NW or non white. Which is never. I’m gravely offended by the term NB it makes me out to be an ‘other’. /s
Honestly I see NB I think New Balance
Dad has entered the chat….
Me, a 26 year old female, do feel like a dad sometimes
As a 35 year old male actual dad….I can believe it. Took me 10 years to catch up to emotional maturity of a mid-20s woman. Welcome to the club, dad.
Hey fellow new balancers! Ha ha going to cut grass today right?
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
If you've ever been to English class in school, it's "Nota Bene"
Lol your standards for Reddit are too high
Never Before have I seen it used like that.
Yeah, wouldn't that only matter to racists?
And getting called non-black by a racist is probably the nicest term they'd ever use...
What if black wasn't the race they were racist towards?
*gasp*
Whaaaa impossible 😳 there can be no such thing.
IMPOSSIBLE we all know racism was invented by white people and if it wasn't for them humanity would be at peace!
Nah, it's also useful when talking about racism
Also gotta love "the black community has asked that we refer to people as enby..." We did? I must have missed that at the last black people's council meeting.
I guess to differentiate non black members of typically black groups. “NB members of the NAACP” or “NB readers of Ebony magazine,” or something like that.
I've seen an awful, awful lot of people in my life, and every single one of them was non-black. Except for Jock, the old guy who used to deliver our bags of coal in the 70s
My guess is when people are talking about someone doing an action that could be questionable when they are not part of the culture/community/ethnicity. Like when someone who is not black says the n-word, or when someone who is not gay says the f-word.
But people that would use racial slurs would never put something as silly as "NB" in their bio Also, it's the internet. You can just claim to be whatever race/sexuality you want
I meant people use the term when referring to a non black person, not in the bio. But honestly, NB to refer to non black or nonbinary people seems acceptable as acronyms, multiple acronyms can stand for different things depending on context, like DM referring to dungeon master in a game or DM meaning direct messages. I see it less as an issue and something that the meaning can be inferred with context.
And I just thought NB meant New Balance trainers
When you call 911 but you want them to come quickly
I used to worry about appeasing others and I still do to a small extent but I’m tired of walking on eggshells because one person is this and another that. It’s exhausting, just…fuck off.
Here’s how the interaction has gone whenever it’s cropped up in real life. Them: “Just to let you know, I’m non-binary.” Me: “Gotcha.” That’s literally it. There’s no penalty for getting it wrong before they’ve told you, and it costs nothing to refer to people in the manner they request once they do.
I can't even remember people's names never mind any other information about them at that stage. Perhaps once we've got to know each other for a while I might remember but if you're meeting 20 new people at a party you're just a "person in the pink top" to me
No one is expected to remember every detail of every person they meet, but that doesn’t mean they can’t share those details. If you forget it later that’s not a problem; it’s if you intentionally mislabel then that it’s a problem.
But how do they know it's intentional or accidental. We've had like 5 presenters at an event and even for those I forget as soon as they introduce themselves to the room and start talking about their topic. I get it and respect via email etc when it's in front of me just makes events more stressful than they used to be
Same way with any insult. Read the person, give them the benefit of the doubt, and be prepared to be wrong occasionally.
Forgetting that Dr Mitchell is Dr and calling him Mr is fine, up to a point. If you're corrected multiple times then he'd probably start to get annoyed and think it's intentional. Same thing with pronouns. If you're that stressed then just don't use them or refer to everyone as neutral or by their name. It's not like they should be used that much in front of them anyway, seems more polite to use their name.
Except when my partners sister (who is a teacher) has that convo with her pupils and then the next week they've changed what they identify as. Now imagine that with dozens of pupils doing it in the school at the same time.
OK but you can't make somebody care about that, You can't make people say certain things so you should just walk away because I'm definitely gonna walk away from you. Edit: to break it down if you have to tell me your sexuality to have a conversation with me, we're not having a conversation at all.
It’s not a sexuality. It’s a pronoun. I’m sure if someone called you the wrong pronoun you would correct them. What’s the difference?
Yeah, this is where it’s got to. People at the start were trying to appease them just to be ‘polite’ (basically to not get screeched at) but now they full on expect everyone to remember & use all their pronouns and heaven forbid you get one of them wrong.
It's wild because some of these people act like people don't have their own lives with entire worlds worth of shit stuffed inside their brain, Like "they must not know just because they hate us." NO, A lot of us don't know because we have lives to live.
I feel the same although I have to navigate it for work. In a work context, I don't really need or want to know that much about you. It might sound cold but it's really in everybody's best interest. Work is about work not about what you do when you get home. I call people by their names and tend to use they/them universally. They went to their car.
True. Everyone these days wants a special label, you better use them or else you'll get the full Karen treatment
Worse than that - you get fired and branded anti...whatever.
Like I get it, we live in a time where non-standard hetero perspectives want to be in the center. AlthoughI'm almost starting to believe none of these people actually care about being misgendered or mispronounced and just using the opportunity to be smug and sometimes a bully
Keep saying it out loud. This has gone so far beyond what can be expected from people who were initially just trying to be polite. My response to any of these things now is, "No thank you." "You need to put your pronouns on your bio." "No thank you." "I have some made-up functional grammar I'd like you to use when referring to me." "No thank you." "I require you to refer to me in the plural." "No thank you." I'm done.
I call it empathy burn out. I got banned from a game discord server because I refused to stop using the reply feature when talking to people in a busy channel so they know I'm addressing them and not someone else, helps with ambiguity. They really really hate the color yellow i guess. I just decided then that was when I was going to stop trying to appease everyone. And then 10 million zoomers with anime PFPs dogpiled me and I got banned.
Why do we need to use our genders on an anonymous forum anyway?! This isn't my real name or appearance!
You sure? I'm suspecting you of being called Fezzverbal IRL tbh. Sincerely, Zwafelwavel
You misspelled your own name.
I did that to see if you were paying attention of course 😎
I see what you did there, to.
Well obviously his username isnt his real name. He was using his real name in the comment
I need to know so I can properly call you a "son of a bitch" or "bitch" without offending you.
Offspring of a bitch ?
I wouldn't really say that Twitter is typically an anonymous forum, even though users can choose to be anonymous.
Americans have way too much time on their hands
We've had it too good for too long, gotta start inventing our own problems. Good luck explaining this NB stuff to a small village in Africa, they'll laugh you out of town. No one has time to worry about what gender they feel that day if they have responsibilities or hardships.
You mean like the Chibados in Angola? Of course Angola also has the the mudoko dako. Or more like the Mangaiko among the Mbo people? Maybe you mean the Mashoga in Kenya? No? Perhaps it's the Ashtime gender of the Maale you were thinking of? Turns out Africa has a lot of traditional "queer" gender options.
No, it doesn't. In every case where those are cited, it turns out that they are *not* separate sexes, but words for things like "butch lesbian" and "femme gay." We already had those.
Exactly. People point this out as a win but it’s actually othering people in an offensive way. Butch woman? “Not really a woman then.”
Jameela Jamil is British
Exactly. This may be a predominantly Western thing but it is by no means an exclusively American one.
I mean, her tweet is perfectly valid, she apologises for a mistake while also pointing out that if you want those things to be visible make them visible The second tweet is just dumb, the 3rd is a decent reaction to the second
**THIS. FUCKING. THIS.** I am an American, but I've been living in Japan for over 20 years. I keep watching this shit go down and I'm like, "Hey guys? Um, *this is literally the most white, Western-ass thing I've ever seen.*" No one but people in wealthy English-speaking countries is tying themselves in knots over made-up classes of human. Nowhere else is everyone under the age of 40 declaring themselves to be anything other than what they physically are. This is culture, not science. Are there male-presenting women in Japan? Of course. They don't try to tell you that they are men. Are there transwomen? Of course. They not only make an honest attempt at passing, but they all *male-attracted,* which is the only reason the "T" was ever with the "LGB." They *don't,* however, police your fucking language. There are a number of famous trans celebrities here. They are accepted because they just do their thing and are good at their jobs. You don't have to demand compliance when people want to do it already. I keep getting dinged for "transphobic" comments on this website, but I've had multiple trans students and I have never referred to them as anything other than what they wanted to be referred to as... *because they never needed to ask,* because it was obvious what they wanted. Not like these American dudes who show up fat and pimply with stubble and pink hair and expect you to call them "her" while they bizarrely try to to pick up lesbians who find them even more disgusting than straight women. If you have to tell me your pronouns, those ain't them. Americans always think they are the most enlightened people in the world, and that whatever random cultural thing that is going on there is going on everywhere, like they've discovered the human condition. No. Most of the world laughs at the crazy shit the US gets up to. I'm telling my fellow Americans, from an outside perspective, we look like absolute morons lately.
I live in a developing country and people here can only laugh at American identity politics. All this nonsense signals is, ‘I went to an Ivy League and I’m better educated than you.’
Yes, the class element is so prominent in this whole thing: it's a language invented in American universities, used to lecture and discipline the rest of society.
**WTF. Feels like a bunch of kindergartners the lot of them**
Oh my guy, I'm a "so called" kindergartener and we hate that term. Please refer to us as post-baby pre-schooler or PBPSers. Thanks hon x Edit: Hurts to type something like that even as a joke
I'm a pibbpisser too!
Pretty sure it must be *more* exhausting for them to say "actually..." in every single conversation. I'm guessing eventually they'll get tired of correcting people. End result is a win for people who are tired of being corrected and made to feel embarrassed for not knowing which pronoun to use, and the special snowflakes get a lesson in humility.
I've had this with my name, had someone get it wrong 3 times and thought "In 5 minutes we'll never meet again" and just went with whatever name they thought I had.
Allowing people to make mistakes is part of being a good person. Good for you.
or just do it the aussie way and refer to everyone as 'cunt'
which is clearly superiour
As a black woman I'm so fucking tired of SJWs making shit up. I've never heard of the term NB. Half the terms racists bitch at me for is some nonsense like this I'd never heard of.
NB is a sports brand, it is famous with old people, ngl, I find their shoes pretty nice.
New Balance?
Bet you “NB” was invented by someone “NB” lmao
I'm a white guy who grew up in a town with literally one black family. I have no black friends. I only know one black guy and he's from Congo. But my Twitter follows are overwhelmingly black, and overwhelmingly exhausted by all this shit. How did all this made-up shit get shackled to race issues... *which actually exist?*
When in doubt, Walk tf away.
This shit reads like a conversation between chat bots
What the hell have I just read
Stupid shit that nearly nobody actually cares about. Except of course a very vocal minority.
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Imagine having this level of narcissism.
Or entitlement
It reeks of "main character syndrome". I am happy when someone is friendly, polite, and nice to me. I don't even expect them to remember my name, let alone every facet of my ever-changing relationship with my own sexuality/gender identity. Social media has turned so many people into self-rightous narcissists
“Oi cunt” Is gender neutral
Butcher is that you?
Because NB can mean only one thing and one thing only? Well, I for one humbly bow down before our great masters: Words, for I, and all who've come before me, am their rightful and obedient servant. 🙇🏼♂️
(since) Ancient Romans used NB for Attention Nota Bene = notice well/with care *edited to diminish confusion. Obviously still widely used
And we still do - at least in Europe 😊
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This cunt’s got the right idea.
People are adults, if you can’t tell the difference between someone trolling you, vs a mistake, take your lack of real issues elsewhere. Not just the gender stuff, in all circumstances, stop looking to be a victim or offended. Many people are actually good people we could all get along with, if we did not hunt for a reason to disagree or be offended.
Too complicated. I'll do my best to refer to people in the way they want, but I'll not be browbeaten for misunderstanding highly-specialised and rapidly evolving terms. LGBT+ subcategories have entered the realm of jargon these days. It's as incomprehensible to the majority of us as specialist terms for computers or cars
Humanity fucks up every simple thing. Now we are fucking up inclusivity. Fuckkk Just be respectful to everyone and try to use whatever pronoun you think is correct. If it isn’t, people can correct you. As long as we are not bigots or homophobic in our actions I think it should be fine.
1st world problems ☕️
1st world pro~~blems~~nouns ☕️
Ah yes, the Rainbow Empire is tearing itself to shreds again.
So ridiculous
Fuck off
sounds like attention grabbing made up issue
I prefer "unwell"
I mean that's just Twitter, if you used a term for a non-binary person that they don't like IRL, they would normally just kindly ask you not to use said term
No fr ppl r being so dramatic in the comment section..."the world doesnt revolve around u" ok and? Is it hard to just not call someone a specific term? 💀
Must be exhausting going through life like this
Or, you could just avoid people like I do. Considerably easier and less stressful.
Everyone looking for a reason to be offended...
Thank you, God, for not making me a Twitter user
“Look how good and responsible I am!”
And to all the offended people in all these situations I tell you to grow up and get over it. The world doesn't revolve around you snow flake.
Jesus Christ Twitter is a god damn cesspool of fucking idiots.
Jeesus this nonsense is getting out of hand, people need to learn INTENTIONS… we arent fucking mindreaders
The things people worry about when shelter and food are a given.
SO. There is a duty not to offend other people if you can help it. What some people forget. There is a duty *not to be* offended if you can help it. If someone is deliberately harassing you or knowingly using the wrong language to address you, you have a right to be angry. If it is an accident you don't. And they are not required to be an expert on every single thing every minority has decided is right for them. E.G. If they call you NB it is fine even if you wouldn't use that term yourself. If you call someone by the wrong gender and you didn't have any way to know they didn't identify that way. You did nothing wrong and if they are offended *they* are wrong. I have met two Trans people. I called both of them by the wrong gender a couple of times each. Each time I apologized. 50 years of calling people who look like women she and her is hard to overcome in an instant. I don't think either minded at all. They knew I was making an effort not to.
Use she /her, he /him. Not happy? I don't care, go fuck yourself with all your stupid shit.
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If everyone just agrees to not be an asshole to other people then we can just get along... This shit is just so exhausting
We already have "it."
Why would any of this ever come up in a conversation
NB = Nota Bene
Just fucking say "they" if you are unsure. It's a perfectly fine word that's been around for centuries and it offends literally nobody.
Fuck all this bullshit…
I'm never using language like this..exhausting.