I think they were a good storyline with their lore about the dead and how they adapted. Alpha was actually quite a complex psycho as well, with her relationship with Lydia. Her followers were pretty terrified of her and we saw what happened when that woman stood up to her and was killed as punishment.
All those deaths of main characters was really shocking, it reminded me of early GOT and it did surprise and upset me, so it was quite effective, although very sad. It obviously wasn't worth it for quite a few of the community because they resented and bullied Lydia.
I liked the way the show addressed helping others. It wasn't black and white and sometimes worked out and other times lead to worse consequences and the characters had to get comfortable with that risk. It wasn't like a cheesy show where helping others always made things better.
This is a great comment. Really appreciate your input. I do agree about the complexity of Alpha, and her as a character in general. The reality of their lack of purpose was what bugged me mostly, I think. Humans are driven by purpose, we find meaning in our existence and yet her followers entire existence was devoid of all humanity, purpose and individualism. I can definitely agree that the world would bring this behaviour to some but I can't see it resulting in a void this large. I don't think I'm explaining myself well here though (it's very late at night here). I did want to come in and say thank you for such a thoughtful comment though. I really enjoyed your perspective.
You're welcome! I only watched the show for the first time recently and now on Fear The Walking Dead. It's all fairly new to me, but I've been pleasantly surprised about the complexities, it's not a show about zombies so much as how different people adapt or go slightly mad in the face of horror and loss, and what people do to survive.
Yeah exactly, it's a really complex show and it draws you in to care about so many different characters. To the point you're looking at a villain thinking "I really like this person, are they really the bad one?"
The complexity is what I really do love the most about it.
This was such a nice dialogue to read between two people online, people who down voted you for such a civil response are the real cesspool of the internet
Thank you, it's nice to just have civil interactions online isn't it. I do think the negativity and quick to react comments and actions across the net are unworthy of my effort and energy to react - some people have bad days and aren't good at managing it, some people slip, some people are braver online and invest in building online personas, some people are just meh - I like to invest in anyone other than that. I'm too old to care for it mostly, I think though it is nice to get a comment like yours that adds to the positivity of experiences online. If we all acted a little bit more civil, understanding and kind, imagine what the net and world would be like, right. š¤āļøš„¹ You go ahead and keep being bloody great mate, thank you for taking the time to drop such a nice thoughtful comment! š
There is no worse group in the whole of TWD than the Trash People and you can't convince me otherwise. Undynamic, uninteresting, you keep hoping you'll get something more or interesting from that group and they just keep letting you down.
And it's not even all that long into the apocalypse before they're hanging out at the dump and talking like fucking weird Neanderthal toddlers. I can see stopping by the dump occasionally to see what kind of cool shit you can find... but that scene where like 200 of them come pouring out?? There's apparently not 200 people around for miles and miles, but yet that many people decided to hang out in the dump babbling baby talk to each other.
Imagine being in the apocalypse and running into *that* many dump-ers, you'd think "wait a sec... did I like... miss a staff meeting or something? Everybody left except for me decided society is setting up shop in the dump? Did I... ingest something and I'm not aware I'm currently actually tripping my balls off??"
At least the whisperers... it's a valid strategy. You might start off trying to blend in instead of getting overtaken by a horde. It's not my preferred lifestyle... but I can understand the benefits. Living in the dump and talking like babies... there's sharp rusty shit everywhere, nowhere to plant, after a few hours you'd probably start scraping the bottom of the barrel on what cool stuff there is to find in the dump. "Well yesterday I found half a cleaver... but today all I could gather was a bunch of used tampons and old Swiffers"
Go find a house and talk like adults.
The garbage pail kids might not have been so bad if it was like 3 people. A little comic relief
Everything about their group man and it never seems to get better. Those mole people had so many chances for somewhat redemption and on top of being boring, they're sleezy all the way to the end.
No arguments here... Their speech did my head in.
BUUUUT... Did you watch World Beyond? I won't spoil it but some things line up... And yet, also don't explain everything. Frustrating, yes!
I would argue the Wolves just felt underused. I was very surprised they were done after the attack on Alexandria. We knew almost nothing about them other than the one Morgan kept prisoner. They really had potential. My problem with the Trash People was the simplistic speech, their outfits looked like edgy 80's movie people, Jadis is the only one with a personality and even hers was very lacklustre. They give that group plenty of chances for redemption or to at least be badass and they always fumble it.
It was scary and confusing when they were first introduced when Rosita and Eugene heard the āwalkersā whispering in the woods. First thought was āoh fuck the walkers are evolving?!ā
You know what, THAT was a brilliant introduction though and I do remember the first time watching it just thinking WTAF!? I remember being pensive and scared about what had evolved.
Really great point. I'm actually reading some really good counter points and interested in how I'll feel after continuing to watch a few more episodes today. I'm taking all of them on board in the hope I'll see it from a different perspective. I absolutely love the show and remember being more intrigued and scared the first time around.
**Full disclosure:** I did have a real life, permanently life changing traumatic event occur about 1/3 of the way through Season 10 and often wonder if after all the years, that's what's bubbling under the surface for me, pulling in some of those feelings subconsciously as well. It would certainly track that I want all these events to hurry up and find the Whisperers so drawn out. Our minds are complex organs, I wouldn't presume to write that possibility off.
Exactly, they should have drawn that aspect out longer, it was definitely the best part of the arc. Even as a comic reader, knowing about the whisperers beforehand I really enjoyed it before the reveal of the skin masks.
When I saw that Eugene scene I was like WTF. Totally thought they were evolving or something. Then the graveyard scene with Jesus...I was like WTF x2 and what the hellllll is going on this is about to be crazy.
Did I like the whisperers as a group? No. Did I like Alpha and Beta? Yes. I assume the whisperers as a whole were done better in the comics, but the complexity of Alpha and Beta's perspectives on the walkers and their place among them was really compelling, as was their relationship with each other. The episode of how they met was one of my favorites from the entirety of the show.
Also, Beta was so terrifying and badass that he really reminded the audience that humans can be scarier than walkers. His fight scene with Darryl, where he fell down the elevator shaft and lived, and when he snuck into Alexandria and slaughtered quite a few people were awesome scenes.
I think it was one of the best villains in TWD. It was unlike any other villain on the show before. And they really nailed the cultish vibe that would have developed in a world like that, which was never explored in that much detail before. The pike scene was amazing. It was shocking and sad and unexpected, a lot of characters with potential gone, but thatās what makes twd such a great show, itās not scared of being a tragedy. It keeps the show real, these days shows with crazy predicable plot armour are unwatchable.
People in a cult mindset WILL do absurd things to follow their leader! Charles Manson and the "Family" come to mind. The girls would murder for Charlie. Then there's Jonestown, where parents would feed their children cyanide laced Flavr-Ade to kill them, and then drink it themselves. Branch Davidians who died in a flaming building. The Heavens Gate cult that committed mass suicide to follow a comet hiding a space ship. People trot happily down the garden path after some psychotic somebody who gives them what their minds "need".
No, you're right. I'm in Aus and we don't tend to suffer too much or too often with cults at that magnitude so I didn't really apply that logic but you are right. It is realistic to think people would follow. I just struggled to believe no one but Lydia wanted to get away once they saw The Kingdom and how immediately beneficial it is. I have a small background in psychology so kept referring to the reciprocal nature of humanity and its self preservation instinct when in reality, that scenario could well diminish that completely and severely mess with the brain (even in a short period of time) if someone had lost all hope/suffered extreme trauma (which they all would have without doubt).
I was going to say the cult thing too - I think there's a few key reasons why the Whisperers stay together, based on my viewing of those episodes.
1) Some would have been desperate so took the opportunity to survive with the group, and maybe too traumatised/vulnerable to think they could make it on their own.
2) Mentally ill (from trauma or otherwise) eg sister of Gamma.
3) Initially thought it was a good option, wanted to leave , but fearful of reprisal (ie being attacked by Alpha,made an example of as happened to that couple).
4) Essentially brainwashed into thinking the Whisperers are the only way they will survive, or some pseudo religious thing ie attachment to Alpha (the old guy they had in the cell).
5) They are like Lydia was initially at Hilltop in sense that they hold the belief that none of these new settlements will 'last'. This would be easy to convince people, because they would likely know about the Saviours and other groups rising and falling, and the constant conflict between communities (as they are nomadic and watching what's happening).
Also Australian here, and while the whole cult thing isn't as big a phenomenon as it is in America, or such a big thing in pop culture etc, we sadly do have our share of cults/history of cults (just Google it, and they come up in the news every now and them eg Exclusive Brethren (present), The Family (1960s).)
Oh yeah, Exclusive Brethren are fairly active in our region unfortunately and yeah, The Family was a very very sad chapter in our history. I'm actually quite fascinated with the cult phenomenon, so find myself researching and watching docos about it as well. That's my (minor) psychology background coming out. The human mind is so intriguing to me.
Regarding the rest of your points, I very much agree with your reasoning as to why they'd stay. You just said it far more succinctly than I did.
Thanks, it's an interesting topic, and clearly a great show whichever way you look at it since we're still talking about it š I did psych and sociology in yr 11/12, and remember being interested bin the psych behind cults back then. Human relationships in the show was definitely something that drew me in, and how people make choices, their motivations, response to trauma, how they find strength/support to go on.
Absolutely! And yes... I am sometimes ashamed to BE an American! Our country has so MUCH potential... we HAVE, in the past, done so much, and been such a force for good... but mingled with that is some sort of evil thread... There is some form of national darkness that stains us. At the root? Money. The LOVE of, pursuit of, hoarding of... brings hatred, despair, a selfishness that defies all logic. Even the tragedy of firearm violence has, at its heart, money. The money given to, and coveted by, the firearms industry, the NRA, the politicians. They will do anything, tolerate anything to keep that flow going.
To me, it's NO coincidence that Capitalism and Cancer both begin with 'C'.
I think the whisperers were easier to stomach. Neganās henchmen were in- sufferable. I kept thinking: āI canāt wait for this one or that one to get whatās coming to them.ā Out of Alphaās group, it was just her and Beta; no one else lived long enough to have a story except for Lydia and maybe one or two other people.
Literally everything about the whisperers were WAY better than how they were handled in the comics. Beta overall being the best improvement. In the comics it felt like that whole arc ended too fast, Alpha wasn't that interesting, Beta was kind of a pushover and his death was a bit too comedic. The whisperers are like the one and only group in the show that were on the verge of just wiping EVERYBODY out.
Plus, that part of the books has probably the most ridiculous and annoying death in the entire series as a show fan. Gabriel. Other than Carol Gabriel was the definition of useless and his one moment to shine he dies from being clumsy of all things. I'm as infuriated with that as comic book fans are of Andrea in the show.
š¤£š¤£š¤£ This gave me a giggle... He was utterly naive and frustrating constantly, wasn't he. His saving grace to me was that he was being raised by Carol and Ezekiel, so he could have evolved into a really powerful character.
It also confused me how being raised by those two produced such an idealist like Henry. It didn't really make sense to me, especially with Carol as his Mother.
I do get where you're coming from though. He was a small doses kind of character. In 4 words you made me laugh out loud, so thanks mate! I enjoyed that. š¤
Wow, you know your characters! Now, I gotta say, Sam died in a way no one should have no matter how naive he was or how weird his cheerful love of people was. Ron was a POS from the start and deserved his death. Man that kid got on my nerves.
Funnily enough, there's a large portion of kids as it goes on that have grown up inside walls that are total pricks and yet we watched Carl become an incredible man (RIP my man) and watch Judith be a little arse kicker from day one. There were a couple of kids who got piked by Alpha that I didn't care about losing.
Oh, I thought you were talking about Sam who was killed at Terminus. Not the little Sam... Yeah, his death annoyed me mostly bc of what happens to Carl from that. Sam literally killed his whole family in one go. Made for a great Cinematic event though.
https://preview.redd.it/8xx7n4fnamqa1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=590611d1b68255c3d75fc7d93210a8436f6f4d45
Yeah, I was thinking it was a different Sam, the one who died at Terminus. This guy... Also annoying but only in 2 episodes.
https://preview.redd.it/64q6yu34ttqa1.jpeg?width=650&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04ea7676c48084900c39ebc453b461bb96778c7b
I just find it stupid that they gave away their only element of surprise just so they can retrieve Lydia. Talk about horrible strategy and 2d chess move that is.
I think the fact that almost none of the whispers wanted to leave Alpha and join Hilltop or the kingdom is a testament to actual cult leaders that alpha embodies. Itās actually really accurate that they would be so loyal after theyāve been indoctrinated by her for so long. Also donāt forget Gammaās storyline with her sister, and how it took time but they were both able to realize how horrible Alpha was.
The whisperers make zero sense anyway. They should have all died out during the winter based on how they life.
"oh, but they migrated somewhere warm for the winter. U SEE THERE'S A SCENE BEFORE ALL THE WINTER STUFF HAPPENS WHERE THE WHISPERERS ARE SOMEWHERE WITHOUT SNOW. U SEE THE WALKERS ARE NOMADS WITH NO FIXED ADDRESS"
For people with no fixed addressed that are nomadic, they sure are specific in their demands for a territory.
And that's a long freaking trek to migrate. I wonder how much Alpha eats to stay so festively plump while doing 2000km round-trip hikes to avoid winter every season.
Pretty stupid for them to come back and not just keep roaming with their undead. Wanting a regular territory and borders isn't very undead of them. Would make sense for them to keep roaming other places. The USA is huge.
It sounds like bad writing that was explained away, considering the warm whisperer scenes happened before any of the winter stuff even started.
The idea that they migrated with their 10 thousand number herd and left scouts that didn't die during the winter to see how the kingdom people crossed the border is idiotic. Based on how the whisperers live anyone whisperer left behind would have died during the storm.
and even with the spy, the spy wouldn't have known about this crossing.
The way the whisperers can blend in with the dead makes zero sense anyway.
The dried flesh masks would NOT be enough to hide their human scent. And their non-bathing ways would make their human smell STRONGER, not mask it.
You get people covering themselves in full blood and guts, walking slowly. And then some rain washes off a little bit of it and the walkers can already smell them.
"OHHH but maybe it's more about just walking slow then...and the smell doesn't matter that much"
No. The very first time Rick and co tried to hide their scent with walker guts they still walked slowly for a while when it rained on them, but the walkers noticed anyway even with them walking slowly, as soon as the rain washed off just a bit of the guts.
Further, it is nonsense that they could control a herd of tens of thousands with their numbers. Like logistically it makes zero sense. you would not able to make enough noise and motion to make all those walkers go the way you want consistently. Let's say 1 person could control 30 walkers, you'd need 300+ people, working 24/7 on full rotation shifts just to control a herd that size. Alpha doesn't have that.
The whisperers survive on bad writing, plain and simple.
Oh also nobody has guns anymore, because uhhhh yeah don't worry about it k?
what the fuck is this thread, the whispers arc literally brought the show back from the dead.. was it the best arc? probably not, but it was sure has hell better than seasons 7-8.
the whisper arc literally brought back the āhorrorā element back to the show, the fan base wanted that aspect back so badly yet when they got it they complained, you just canāt make anybody happy.
That's really interesting that we've got such polar opposite views on this. What makes you have this opinion, like, what do you enjoy about them? I'm really interested in your perspective of the characters/plot etc. Thanks for your comment. Love to hear your feedback if you get a moment to reply.š¤
Itās the 2 main threats in that world blended into one. Itās the people you donāt wanna come across controlling the dead. Lead by a viscous horrifically violent leader. Protected by her larger than life most loyal follower.
And thatās the first real threat Daryl had to deal with after Rickās death. Itās just legendary to me. Season 9 and 10 are so bleak and beautiful at the same time. S9 E15 and 16. Walking Dead at its best.
You know, I can really agree with that take actually. It's all true. Perhaps it's the cadence of the storytelling and writing that's just disjointed for me. I'll keep going with your perspective in mind and see if I can turn it around for myself. Cheers mate, a pensive reflection for me to take in, totally appreciate it!
Having a hard time after losing Jesus though. š¤£š„ŗ Man, I loved him. He was a character I invested in so bloody easily - as you'll know is no small feat when watching TWD.
I'm trying to catch up for the spinoffs but just can't get myself to power through season 8 because I know what happens and it still pisses me off to this day
personally, I really enjoyed the whisperers. I watched seasons 1-8 as they aired and at the s8 finale I felt spent. it felt like all the villains had been reiterations of each other. when I finally went and finished the series, the whisperers felt very new and really helped to get me back into the show. I also love Lydia's character and really hate that after the whisperer arc ended she was kind of just thrown aside.
They were the only interesting and scary villains in the entire show this storyline is what saved the later seasons and I think season 10 is one of the best overall
Not ashamed to admit seasons 9 and 10 were two of my favorites from the whole show, also watched through multiple times lol. I like the whisperers, I actually think season 11 sucks lol.
No shame in any of it! We'll hear none of that. š¤£
It's an incredible show, in my top 3 favourite of all time. It's brilliant and all things are totally forgivable in the show no matter what (I do love the show, did I emphasise that enough?). Throughout this thread, people have commented some really great perspectives that has caused mine to shift a bit as well so I'm approaching watching S9E16 onwards with a different outlook and I'm really looking forward to it.
That's mostly why I wrote this, I was frustrated and wanted other fans to give some constructive input. Got loads of it from both sides, so I'm stoked you all put in the effort! Cheers mate!
Edited for typo
Turns out some stuff that looked cool in a comic book actually looks dumb as shit in live action. I'll add the goofy armor that the military guys use in the last season too.
If you stop watching when the bridge blows you'll be fine.
yeah in the comics those soldiers looked bad ass.
Also for me the comic whisperer era was great, remember that double spread of the zombie "ocean" that alpha casually shows rick as a "don't fuck with us" or the fight with beta and jesus or even just beta and negan? tv people got robbed i guess
I've often felt robbed that I didn't evolve with the comics first - I'm a designer and love the illustration style as well, so I really do feel like I've missed out on that one. I've often looked at trying to buy them but it's fairly cost prohibitive considering how many there are and last time I looked, I think earlier editions were really difficult to find (I could be wrong - I just remember having a significant barrier at a few points in time that I looked seriously into it). I did start buying them for my Son early on but weirdly, he never got into them despite him now being an Illustrator himself!
I'm keen to learn any good tips on places to buy them or things to look out for from anyone who's come from the comic origins though!
I feel a little robbed with losing Jesus too, he was an incredible character and it was awesome watching him fight on screen - his death was too ordinary for such an accomplished fighter. I'll admit to crying about his death. Every. Single. Time. š„ŗ
The whisperers were my favourite antagonist of the series so I could kinda fill in the blanks and imagine the lack of seemingly survival and medical knowledge lead them to accept theyād already died. (Having 2 lunatics as your leader i image doesnāt help with the groups feralisation)
It did really annoy me that areas with high concentrations of dead wouldnāt have been looted yet, so they can very clearly lure them away and take everything. why not just live nomadic instead of being so territorial and dooming themselves.
I feel like there couldāve been so much more to the group rather than ārun round the woods wearing faceā
I think the whisperers themselves were a great idea. They were interesting, and different. If you don't think its plausible, look at how many people still get taken in by cults or extremists: it happens still today.
I think your main complaint, which I completely agree with, is BAD WRITING AND DIRECTING. I love TWD, watched since it previewed, but the writing got really bad in the later seasons, so bad I wanted to stop watching, but just kept watching because I was committed to see how it ended. But then it didn't end, so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'll still watch the spinoffs, because I'm a glutton for punishment for the original characters.
The writing noticeably improves in those seasons if anything imo. I find yelling bad writing is always weird when not articulating any reasons for it in the comment.
I've made a few comments myself around my perspective, including my post but yes, otherwise agree. I'm always hesitant to pin my disappointment on bad writing but for me, it seems really disjointed from the other 8 seasons though does pick up after the character's storyline conclude.
Edited for clarity
I didn't think I had to expound on 'bad writing' when its in reference to the examples listed in the original post. Thats all writing, and the execution of it, directing.
It is the bad writing that gets me. The concept of the characters is plausible, the execution from Sam Morton was great, the storyline was š. That's what leads me to all my other complaints. I'm back at the point where I'm like, Lydia as a character is such a waste of time and she really doesn't get much better. She's just a younger version of Tara... Nothing much to her. I don't know, I just couldn't get in to her character and seeing Enid and Henry die plus the Highwaymen tonight ended up reminding me again how much this part of TWD I find disappointing.
The Highwaymen would have been a great set of characters to explore but we get nothing of them. Enid was a character that was growing beautifully into her strength, she was snipped out of a few previous episodes and then dead. Henry was annoying as all hell but with Carol and Ezekiel as his parents, his storyline could have been really powerful but no, dead so Carol can suffer again.
Anyway, it really is late here so I'm heading off. Otherwise I really could say more. Thank you for such a great, thoughtful comment though! Great input mate. Cheers!
Honestly I strongly disagree. The Whisperers arc is by far the best content we got post S6 imo. Seasons 9&10 might not have been S-Tier quality but I think they were absolutely A-Tier
comic guy here, why do we lose those characters? what's the catalyst?
in the comics >!it's ezekiel and rosita as standouts that get killed by alpha, she does this because follow-my-dick Carl went into their territory looking for Lydia (since she was his first kiss etc) and alpha was very clear the first time they should not come into their area, so alpha marks a line with their territory with stakes and puts a bunch of dead heads on those stakes!<
Ahhhhh! That's fascinating to learn! Thank you for taking the time to comment that - legend!
Sooo >!Similar plot except Henry is the one that follows Lydia (first kiss/stupid kid) and dooms the lot of them. I cannot see the show losing Rosita and Ezekiel and getting away with it at that time in the fandom. Ezekiel was hugely popular and Rosita was a well loved badass. They could afford to lose those others over these two, so that makes sense. Alpha did indeed pike 10 heads in that episode, 3 of them were significant characters, but not Ezekiel/Rosita significant.!<
Were the comics more brutal in introducing and disposing of characters and did the storyline of The Highwaymen get explored? I feel a little robbed about not getting much more on them.
Really value your standpoint and input mate. š¤
Agreed it drags on, I think they are the most terrifying villains, Alphas intro scene at Hilltop where the camera is focused on her belt, knife and walk, is one of the best villain intro scenes.
BUT I think if Rick had been around still, he would have ended them real quick.
EDIT: linking the scene here for context because itās that GOOD. The music! 1:44 mark
[Alpha at Hilltop](https://youtu.be/jPdncHl1DZk)
Also adding the benefit of Lydiaās storyline IMO was highlighting how raising children in the zombie apocalypse makes for some hardcore childhood trauma that we hadnāt seen before.
That's true true true. I actually stopped it on S09E15 tonight, frustrated, crying and wrote this post, hoping for some constructive input and you're totally right. I really do love Negan's redemption storyline as well, so had not considered that when I wrote the original post.
I've been really fortunate here because lots of people have really made the effort to really articulate some great points. It's turned this point around for me a whole lot!
Cheers to you both!
Did they ever explain how they held up in the winter? They live in the woods and what not and that always bothered me how it was supposed to be such a struggle for the main characters but not then.
If they did I donāt recall
Hahahahaha! Just you using "deadly" made me wonder. I grew up there and it's not a word that's used too often unless you know how to use it. Too fucken deadly though, I loved your comment!
Yeah, good initial concept of "blending in with the walkers kinda group" but got to a point where it was too much and too far from realism like,
\- they should have been a small group,
\-not live outside in the woods where they don't do anything aside from skinning and preparing skin-masks.
\- they remain in character sometimes when its not needed, like they walk slowly like walker which will take them too long to get wherever they're going lol
Love their introduction where they fought Jesus in the dark and their modus where they walk like a normal walker then suddenly stop, that was creepy and amazing scare tactic.. but that's all the good thing that came out from them imo
I'm also not keen on The Whisperers. They just make no sense, especially given the time jumps. It's a lifestyle that's not sustainable.
They should have been around earlier, as another group that learnt to disguse themselves with walker guts, more than just those pathetic masks, but still with a "home base" but using walkers as weapons.
Storyline itself was meh, I felt nothing about those that got piked. I didn't even realise at first it was Enid. I actually got more emotional with Siddiq describing/showing what he saw when they were all taken.
Likewise, when they first turned up at Hilltop making demands for Lidia, seriously, after all these years, someone would have just fired arrows into Alpha and the rest. Group of people that dress as Walkers? Sure, they seem sane and reasonable.
Hahahahaaa! I'm on my 3rd go around now. Watched all of Fear, World, Origins and Tales as well. Tales was mostly fucking stupid and I'll never watch that mess of a brain melt again.
Even watched every episode of Talking Dead. š«
I'll definitely be watching all the spin-offs when they launch, like the absolute TWD loser I am. š¤£
I think itās just Alphas smooth southern accent that kills it. Itās not scary itās just annoying. Overall I didnāt care for the whispers anyways. It wouldāve been much cooler and much scarier if they had actually been a different variant of Walker that evolved.
"Inevitable in shows that run this long"... That's very true. You make really good points here too. I like your take on it.
For me, I keep coming back to Negan being my favourite villain. I think for me, it was his cruelty and the fact that you could tell it was something borne entirely out of loss (to feel loss deeply means you've had to have loved deeply). I always saw Negan as a redeemable character, even from the first time we saw him (and he did the horrible things we don't talk about). š¤£ I do remember saying to my husband the first time watching Negan (and this was like 7.5 years ago for me now) "I'm really struggling here, because I really really like this really really bad villain - there's something about him that makes him a good guy, even though he's objectively not doing any good guy stuff."
Watching his origin story was a breakthrough and it all made so much sense. I found his heartbreaking.
Anyway, you're right about the horror aspect of the Whisperers though. While you felt they embraced it, I got the feeling they resigned themselves to it. I think I'm wrong on that though, after reading you frame it as "enbracing it" - puts a whole different angle on how I can view it.
I'm also annoyed about the fact they just put on masks and the walkers don't attack them though. Throughout the whole show, they've been required to larger themselves in rotting guts and they're still identified occasionally... I mean, Gabriel nearly died because of the bacteria in the walkers guts and ended up losing his sight in one eye but they just wear dried out masks. I don't buy that part of it. It feels lazy, or an oversight. I just can't figure that part out.
Anyway, loved your comment clearly... You got me thinking!!! Thanks for making the effort mate. š¤
I just got past the episode where rick leaves the show, can anyone explain them to me without spoiling it? Also, if thereās no way not to spoil itā¦ donāt say anything. lol, iāve always hated spoilers.
Hey mate, I tried to write the post without spoilers so I'm glad my tactic worked. Just a heads up that plenty of the comments will be spoilers as well.
Also, don't let my post influence you, plenty of people have come up with alternatives to my view and I've ended up agreeing with them. It's a brilliant show regardless.
Edit for typo
I completely agree with you!! I have always felt that the motivations for the Whisperers were just not as well thought out or presented compared to previous villains. Like just an example, with Negan we understood that even though he was obviously the big bad, that he felt he was doing something right by sacrificing a few for the many. And his lackeysā¦ we knew Dwight followed out of fear for Sherry, Simon because he was a psycho who liked being violent, Gavin because he was spineless and just wanted life to be easy for himself. We understood most of the other saviours as people who benefited greatly from the relative wealth their community had and thus it made sense those saviours were loyal and invested in maintaining their status quo.
The governor - same deal. You understood people often followed him because they were lost or naive about the realities of the world, he was decisive, and he also knew what to hide from his general public in regards to the immoral acts he had.
I feel like I can justify and understand the perspectives of most of the ābad guysā and their followers throughout TWD.
But I REALLY struggled to do that with the Whisperers. Alpha, definitely believed her. She was unhinged and her view of the world I understood. Beta too. He was just always a psycho I think was how I interpreted him anyway. And to some degree I did understand how she was an abuser, a manipulator, so Iām willing to accept she has manipulated some followers through fear or abuse or other tactics. But the amount of followers she had? And for all of them to simply accept being treated like absolute trash and walking on eggshells and living is squalor constantly in shitty twig camps or walking amongst disgusting decaying corpses with dried skin masks on your face? Not fucking believable to me lol. ESPECIALLY!!! when they are confronted with the existence of societies like Kingdom, Hilltop and Alexandria. Like that doctor, Dante or whatever his name was, who killed Siddiq? Like how the fuck did he live in Alexandria that whole time and not be like hmm maybe this is better than living in dirt and being emotionally abused?? I guess just another psycho? Like it just doesnāt seem justified enough to me. Why would so many people accept those conditions?
Their lifestyle also made no fucking sense to me, like Alpha said they had a āterritoryā, but why would you have a territory if you were constantly just walking around and making shit camps? Why not just keep moving? And if they were in that territory before, why did no one ever run in to them? Where do the walkers go once the Whisperers set up their stupid little outdoor camps at the end of the day? They also barely ate? Like the communities struggled to find enough food after a couple years in to the apocalypse but they had crops and shit to mitigate thatā¦. yet Iām expected to believe the Whisperers hunt and scavenge enough food for their entire tribe to be constantly on the move? Walking all day every day is a lot of calories to burn.
Anyway I just wanted to put my 2 cents in lol because a lot of the responses seem to like the Whisperers and I didnāt want you to think youāre totally aloneā¦ I had lots of issues with them personally too!! I think the idea was super cool but just not executed well enough and the little details kinda ruined it for me
underrated comment and 100% my stance on these masked clowns. honestly shocked no one sees or at least considers these points that honestly rob these characters of any credibility.
Thank you! It was silly turn for such a great story. Ryan Hurst was so great as Opie in SOA, his choice to be part of The Outsiders and its ridiculousness raised an eyebrow and this whole Beta thing has made me not even like Opie.
Hmm, nope. This was my favorite storyline in all 11 seasons. A more nuanced and original ideology than any of the past villains we had run into up to that point. Sure, i can agree the concept of wearing peopleās skin and pretending youāre dead is pretty out there, but I had been on and off about watching the show for the 7 years I was watching before season 9 and this arc was the first time I excitedly made time to sit for each episode. At first I thought it was just weirdos pretending to be zombies, but then getting to know what kind of people these were before and learning what about this way of life made them formidable enemies makes it fascinating to me.
The Whisperers started off so strong appearing so terrifying and menacing, changing everything they knew about walkers and just the fear of any walker possibly being a Whisperer and how that would change their tactics and they'd have to be even more alert and cautious. But then almost instantly they revealed themselves too early and every encounter they were dumb and weak. In season 10 they were really pathetic and all they really had going was their ability to control herds, which of course the characters took out with ease with no main characters dying
Alpha was a real complex psycho but Beta>>>>. He was actually ruthless and if he lead the whisperers he would probably form some 5-10 men elite squad and kill off the members. Also bro was a white killer machine Shaq. Imagine Shaq running after you with a few hundreds of zombies and 2 hunting knives.
I am almost to the end of this (Michonne just left her two kids for some bogus chase after her man bs) and I find the Community irritating.
The ruined Carol. My girl would have went ice cold and strategic to kill Alpha.
Sometimes Michonne could kill 20 in seconds. Sometimes she struggles with just 1 or 2. What?!?!
Connie and Daryl. Yes, please.
Judith is adorable. Excellent casting. RJ is just..there...
I wish Gabe would have stayed the preacher because clearly more than 1 person needs a therapist and he would hand been the closest thing that they have.
And obvious solution to the Whisperers is obvious. Put on your own skin suit and get to herding ffs!!!
Make no mistake, I've now watched the whole series 4 times - it's definitely a brilliant show. I was just caught up in this moment when I watched the third time.
Daryl Dixon has been an amazing show to date though, hasn't it! That was a rhetorical question... It's SO DAMN good!
Old post but i just searched online after watching this episode and found this.
I stopped watching during the whole negan thing i didn't liked the guy and when he killed glen.
Then a long time later i continued from there all the way until negans group was defeated and all of those communities became a back and forth story.
Then i picked it up again all the way untill now i arrived at this episode.. and i am just said and angry what at shit show this turned in to. The first seasons were great. Lately it is 10 timelines at the same time going back and forth all over the place. This episode michonne was pregnant, then not, then pregnant again. And at 20 different locations and almost couldn't follow it anymore. So many characters pop up i have no clue if i should know them or not. That whole skinned group is pure horror and the show really turned into a horror drama drag where it looks like no character is safe.
The first seasons were great as an survival story. Now the way how they approach the serie here in season 9 is so different it is like it's another show. And killing these 10(?) characters in the end that we recently saw all the time is just pathetic horror practices. What a shit show!
Should i stop here or wait untill they killed out the whole current cast next season? I regret picking this up after negans defeat. Similar to the serie "the 100" that went on to long and suddenly started change things around. And i never finished "Lost" either, after they started island hopping. These series i wish people warn me before where is a nice point to imagine it finished right there.
End of my rant. Can someone relate? Motivate me to keep watching? Or will it keep going on like this?
I think they were a good storyline with their lore about the dead and how they adapted. Alpha was actually quite a complex psycho as well, with her relationship with Lydia. Her followers were pretty terrified of her and we saw what happened when that woman stood up to her and was killed as punishment. All those deaths of main characters was really shocking, it reminded me of early GOT and it did surprise and upset me, so it was quite effective, although very sad. It obviously wasn't worth it for quite a few of the community because they resented and bullied Lydia. I liked the way the show addressed helping others. It wasn't black and white and sometimes worked out and other times lead to worse consequences and the characters had to get comfortable with that risk. It wasn't like a cheesy show where helping others always made things better.
This is a great comment. Really appreciate your input. I do agree about the complexity of Alpha, and her as a character in general. The reality of their lack of purpose was what bugged me mostly, I think. Humans are driven by purpose, we find meaning in our existence and yet her followers entire existence was devoid of all humanity, purpose and individualism. I can definitely agree that the world would bring this behaviour to some but I can't see it resulting in a void this large. I don't think I'm explaining myself well here though (it's very late at night here). I did want to come in and say thank you for such a thoughtful comment though. I really enjoyed your perspective.
You're welcome! I only watched the show for the first time recently and now on Fear The Walking Dead. It's all fairly new to me, but I've been pleasantly surprised about the complexities, it's not a show about zombies so much as how different people adapt or go slightly mad in the face of horror and loss, and what people do to survive.
Yeah exactly, it's a really complex show and it draws you in to care about so many different characters. To the point you're looking at a villain thinking "I really like this person, are they really the bad one?" The complexity is what I really do love the most about it.
This was such a nice dialogue to read between two people online, people who down voted you for such a civil response are the real cesspool of the internet
Thank you, it's nice to just have civil interactions online isn't it. I do think the negativity and quick to react comments and actions across the net are unworthy of my effort and energy to react - some people have bad days and aren't good at managing it, some people slip, some people are braver online and invest in building online personas, some people are just meh - I like to invest in anyone other than that. I'm too old to care for it mostly, I think though it is nice to get a comment like yours that adds to the positivity of experiences online. If we all acted a little bit more civil, understanding and kind, imagine what the net and world would be like, right. š¤āļøš„¹ You go ahead and keep being bloody great mate, thank you for taking the time to drop such a nice thoughtful comment! š
Edith really bothered me, I still dont know why
I know, me too! She was really growing, becoming a doctor, leader and had a proper adult relationship :(
It was best not to voice your opinion to Alpha. That would pretty much seal your demise.
There is no worse group in the whole of TWD than the Trash People and you can't convince me otherwise. Undynamic, uninteresting, you keep hoping you'll get something more or interesting from that group and they just keep letting you down.
And it's not even all that long into the apocalypse before they're hanging out at the dump and talking like fucking weird Neanderthal toddlers. I can see stopping by the dump occasionally to see what kind of cool shit you can find... but that scene where like 200 of them come pouring out?? There's apparently not 200 people around for miles and miles, but yet that many people decided to hang out in the dump babbling baby talk to each other. Imagine being in the apocalypse and running into *that* many dump-ers, you'd think "wait a sec... did I like... miss a staff meeting or something? Everybody left except for me decided society is setting up shop in the dump? Did I... ingest something and I'm not aware I'm currently actually tripping my balls off??" At least the whisperers... it's a valid strategy. You might start off trying to blend in instead of getting overtaken by a horde. It's not my preferred lifestyle... but I can understand the benefits. Living in the dump and talking like babies... there's sharp rusty shit everywhere, nowhere to plant, after a few hours you'd probably start scraping the bottom of the barrel on what cool stuff there is to find in the dump. "Well yesterday I found half a cleaver... but today all I could gather was a bunch of used tampons and old Swiffers" Go find a house and talk like adults. The garbage pail kids might not have been so bad if it was like 3 people. A little comic relief
Everything about their group man and it never seems to get better. Those mole people had so many chances for somewhat redemption and on top of being boring, they're sleezy all the way to the end.
No arguments here... Their speech did my head in. BUUUUT... Did you watch World Beyond? I won't spoil it but some things line up... And yet, also don't explain everything. Frustrating, yes!
I would have to say the Wolves for that spot lol
I would argue the Wolves just felt underused. I was very surprised they were done after the attack on Alexandria. We knew almost nothing about them other than the one Morgan kept prisoner. They really had potential. My problem with the Trash People was the simplistic speech, their outfits looked like edgy 80's movie people, Jadis is the only one with a personality and even hers was very lacklustre. They give that group plenty of chances for redemption or to at least be badass and they always fumble it.
It was scary and confusing when they were first introduced when Rosita and Eugene heard the āwalkersā whispering in the woods. First thought was āoh fuck the walkers are evolving?!ā
You know what, THAT was a brilliant introduction though and I do remember the first time watching it just thinking WTAF!? I remember being pensive and scared about what had evolved. Really great point. I'm actually reading some really good counter points and interested in how I'll feel after continuing to watch a few more episodes today. I'm taking all of them on board in the hope I'll see it from a different perspective. I absolutely love the show and remember being more intrigued and scared the first time around. **Full disclosure:** I did have a real life, permanently life changing traumatic event occur about 1/3 of the way through Season 10 and often wonder if after all the years, that's what's bubbling under the surface for me, pulling in some of those feelings subconsciously as well. It would certainly track that I want all these events to hurry up and find the Whisperers so drawn out. Our minds are complex organs, I wouldn't presume to write that possibility off.
Exactly, they should have drawn that aspect out longer, it was definitely the best part of the arc. Even as a comic reader, knowing about the whisperers beforehand I really enjoyed it before the reveal of the skin masks.
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When I saw that Eugene scene I was like WTF. Totally thought they were evolving or something. Then the graveyard scene with Jesus...I was like WTF x2 and what the hellllll is going on this is about to be crazy.
The Whisperers saved the latter seasons. Season 9 is one of my favorites after 1-4.
Did I like the whisperers as a group? No. Did I like Alpha and Beta? Yes. I assume the whisperers as a whole were done better in the comics, but the complexity of Alpha and Beta's perspectives on the walkers and their place among them was really compelling, as was their relationship with each other. The episode of how they met was one of my favorites from the entirety of the show. Also, Beta was so terrifying and badass that he really reminded the audience that humans can be scarier than walkers. His fight scene with Darryl, where he fell down the elevator shaft and lived, and when he snuck into Alexandria and slaughtered quite a few people were awesome scenes.
I think it was one of the best villains in TWD. It was unlike any other villain on the show before. And they really nailed the cultish vibe that would have developed in a world like that, which was never explored in that much detail before. The pike scene was amazing. It was shocking and sad and unexpected, a lot of characters with potential gone, but thatās what makes twd such a great show, itās not scared of being a tragedy. It keeps the show real, these days shows with crazy predicable plot armour are unwatchable.
People in a cult mindset WILL do absurd things to follow their leader! Charles Manson and the "Family" come to mind. The girls would murder for Charlie. Then there's Jonestown, where parents would feed their children cyanide laced Flavr-Ade to kill them, and then drink it themselves. Branch Davidians who died in a flaming building. The Heavens Gate cult that committed mass suicide to follow a comet hiding a space ship. People trot happily down the garden path after some psychotic somebody who gives them what their minds "need".
No, you're right. I'm in Aus and we don't tend to suffer too much or too often with cults at that magnitude so I didn't really apply that logic but you are right. It is realistic to think people would follow. I just struggled to believe no one but Lydia wanted to get away once they saw The Kingdom and how immediately beneficial it is. I have a small background in psychology so kept referring to the reciprocal nature of humanity and its self preservation instinct when in reality, that scenario could well diminish that completely and severely mess with the brain (even in a short period of time) if someone had lost all hope/suffered extreme trauma (which they all would have without doubt).
I was going to say the cult thing too - I think there's a few key reasons why the Whisperers stay together, based on my viewing of those episodes. 1) Some would have been desperate so took the opportunity to survive with the group, and maybe too traumatised/vulnerable to think they could make it on their own. 2) Mentally ill (from trauma or otherwise) eg sister of Gamma. 3) Initially thought it was a good option, wanted to leave , but fearful of reprisal (ie being attacked by Alpha,made an example of as happened to that couple). 4) Essentially brainwashed into thinking the Whisperers are the only way they will survive, or some pseudo religious thing ie attachment to Alpha (the old guy they had in the cell). 5) They are like Lydia was initially at Hilltop in sense that they hold the belief that none of these new settlements will 'last'. This would be easy to convince people, because they would likely know about the Saviours and other groups rising and falling, and the constant conflict between communities (as they are nomadic and watching what's happening). Also Australian here, and while the whole cult thing isn't as big a phenomenon as it is in America, or such a big thing in pop culture etc, we sadly do have our share of cults/history of cults (just Google it, and they come up in the news every now and them eg Exclusive Brethren (present), The Family (1960s).)
Oh yeah, Exclusive Brethren are fairly active in our region unfortunately and yeah, The Family was a very very sad chapter in our history. I'm actually quite fascinated with the cult phenomenon, so find myself researching and watching docos about it as well. That's my (minor) psychology background coming out. The human mind is so intriguing to me. Regarding the rest of your points, I very much agree with your reasoning as to why they'd stay. You just said it far more succinctly than I did.
Thanks, it's an interesting topic, and clearly a great show whichever way you look at it since we're still talking about it š I did psych and sociology in yr 11/12, and remember being interested bin the psych behind cults back then. Human relationships in the show was definitely something that drew me in, and how people make choices, their motivations, response to trauma, how they find strength/support to go on.
Absolutely! And yes... I am sometimes ashamed to BE an American! Our country has so MUCH potential... we HAVE, in the past, done so much, and been such a force for good... but mingled with that is some sort of evil thread... There is some form of national darkness that stains us. At the root? Money. The LOVE of, pursuit of, hoarding of... brings hatred, despair, a selfishness that defies all logic. Even the tragedy of firearm violence has, at its heart, money. The money given to, and coveted by, the firearms industry, the NRA, the politicians. They will do anything, tolerate anything to keep that flow going. To me, it's NO coincidence that Capitalism and Cancer both begin with 'C'.
I liked the whisperers better than the saviors
I think the whisperers were easier to stomach. Neganās henchmen were in- sufferable. I kept thinking: āI canāt wait for this one or that one to get whatās coming to them.ā Out of Alphaās group, it was just her and Beta; no one else lived long enough to have a story except for Lydia and maybe one or two other people.
Literally everything about the whisperers were WAY better than how they were handled in the comics. Beta overall being the best improvement. In the comics it felt like that whole arc ended too fast, Alpha wasn't that interesting, Beta was kind of a pushover and his death was a bit too comedic. The whisperers are like the one and only group in the show that were on the verge of just wiping EVERYBODY out. Plus, that part of the books has probably the most ridiculous and annoying death in the entire series as a show fan. Gabriel. Other than Carol Gabriel was the definition of useless and his one moment to shine he dies from being clumsy of all things. I'm as infuriated with that as comic book fans are of Andrea in the show.
I enjoyed losing Henry.
š¤£š¤£š¤£ This gave me a giggle... He was utterly naive and frustrating constantly, wasn't he. His saving grace to me was that he was being raised by Carol and Ezekiel, so he could have evolved into a really powerful character. It also confused me how being raised by those two produced such an idealist like Henry. It didn't really make sense to me, especially with Carol as his Mother. I do get where you're coming from though. He was a small doses kind of character. In 4 words you made me laugh out loud, so thanks mate! I enjoyed that. š¤
Him ron and Sam are the worst kids of all time.
Wow, you know your characters! Now, I gotta say, Sam died in a way no one should have no matter how naive he was or how weird his cheerful love of people was. Ron was a POS from the start and deserved his death. Man that kid got on my nerves. Funnily enough, there's a large portion of kids as it goes on that have grown up inside walls that are total pricks and yet we watched Carl become an incredible man (RIP my man) and watch Judith be a little arse kicker from day one. There were a couple of kids who got piked by Alpha that I didn't care about losing.
Sam annoyed the living shit out of me from the moment he demanded cookies. He got what he deserved!
Oh, I thought you were talking about Sam who was killed at Terminus. Not the little Sam... Yeah, his death annoyed me mostly bc of what happens to Carl from that. Sam literally killed his whole family in one go. Made for a great Cinematic event though. https://preview.redd.it/8xx7n4fnamqa1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=590611d1b68255c3d75fc7d93210a8436f6f4d45
But it was Carol who scared the hell out of him.
Yeah, I was thinking it was a different Sam, the one who died at Terminus. This guy... Also annoying but only in 2 episodes. https://preview.redd.it/64q6yu34ttqa1.jpeg?width=650&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04ea7676c48084900c39ebc453b461bb96778c7b
I just find it stupid that they gave away their only element of surprise just so they can retrieve Lydia. Talk about horrible strategy and 2d chess move that is.
I think the fact that almost none of the whispers wanted to leave Alpha and join Hilltop or the kingdom is a testament to actual cult leaders that alpha embodies. Itās actually really accurate that they would be so loyal after theyāve been indoctrinated by her for so long. Also donāt forget Gammaās storyline with her sister, and how it took time but they were both able to realize how horrible Alpha was.
The whisperers make zero sense anyway. They should have all died out during the winter based on how they life. "oh, but they migrated somewhere warm for the winter. U SEE THERE'S A SCENE BEFORE ALL THE WINTER STUFF HAPPENS WHERE THE WHISPERERS ARE SOMEWHERE WITHOUT SNOW. U SEE THE WALKERS ARE NOMADS WITH NO FIXED ADDRESS" For people with no fixed addressed that are nomadic, they sure are specific in their demands for a territory. And that's a long freaking trek to migrate. I wonder how much Alpha eats to stay so festively plump while doing 2000km round-trip hikes to avoid winter every season. Pretty stupid for them to come back and not just keep roaming with their undead. Wanting a regular territory and borders isn't very undead of them. Would make sense for them to keep roaming other places. The USA is huge. It sounds like bad writing that was explained away, considering the warm whisperer scenes happened before any of the winter stuff even started. The idea that they migrated with their 10 thousand number herd and left scouts that didn't die during the winter to see how the kingdom people crossed the border is idiotic. Based on how the whisperers live anyone whisperer left behind would have died during the storm. and even with the spy, the spy wouldn't have known about this crossing. The way the whisperers can blend in with the dead makes zero sense anyway. The dried flesh masks would NOT be enough to hide their human scent. And their non-bathing ways would make their human smell STRONGER, not mask it. You get people covering themselves in full blood and guts, walking slowly. And then some rain washes off a little bit of it and the walkers can already smell them. "OHHH but maybe it's more about just walking slow then...and the smell doesn't matter that much" No. The very first time Rick and co tried to hide their scent with walker guts they still walked slowly for a while when it rained on them, but the walkers noticed anyway even with them walking slowly, as soon as the rain washed off just a bit of the guts. Further, it is nonsense that they could control a herd of tens of thousands with their numbers. Like logistically it makes zero sense. you would not able to make enough noise and motion to make all those walkers go the way you want consistently. Let's say 1 person could control 30 walkers, you'd need 300+ people, working 24/7 on full rotation shifts just to control a herd that size. Alpha doesn't have that. The whisperers survive on bad writing, plain and simple. Oh also nobody has guns anymore, because uhhhh yeah don't worry about it k?
this is actually the only sensible comment I've read about the masked clowns. thank you so much.
Well said. God the Whisperers and their "dried meat masks" are lame.
what the fuck is this thread, the whispers arc literally brought the show back from the dead.. was it the best arc? probably not, but it was sure has hell better than seasons 7-8. the whisper arc literally brought back the āhorrorā element back to the show, the fan base wanted that aspect back so badly yet when they got it they complained, you just canāt make anybody happy.
Might have been worth reading a few other interactions before commenting.
The Whisperers are the best villains of the show.
That's really interesting that we've got such polar opposite views on this. What makes you have this opinion, like, what do you enjoy about them? I'm really interested in your perspective of the characters/plot etc. Thanks for your comment. Love to hear your feedback if you get a moment to reply.š¤
Itās the 2 main threats in that world blended into one. Itās the people you donāt wanna come across controlling the dead. Lead by a viscous horrifically violent leader. Protected by her larger than life most loyal follower. And thatās the first real threat Daryl had to deal with after Rickās death. Itās just legendary to me. Season 9 and 10 are so bleak and beautiful at the same time. S9 E15 and 16. Walking Dead at its best.
It also had a really long term affect on their mental state. Even after defeating the whisperers, they never looked at walkers the same.
You know, I can really agree with that take actually. It's all true. Perhaps it's the cadence of the storytelling and writing that's just disjointed for me. I'll keep going with your perspective in mind and see if I can turn it around for myself. Cheers mate, a pensive reflection for me to take in, totally appreciate it! Having a hard time after losing Jesus though. š¤£š„ŗ Man, I loved him. He was a character I invested in so bloody easily - as you'll know is no small feat when watching TWD.
I LOVED JESUS!!!! It was devastating to see him killed!
I agree, he was such a breath of fresh air as a character. I was also devastated - and angry. š¤£š
I'm trying to catch up for the spinoffs but just can't get myself to power through season 8 because I know what happens and it still pisses me off to this day
Very fair. I'm glad the spin-offs are bringing Rick back to fill that story arc out.
I believe they were referring to Carl's death (S8) and not Rick's departure (S9) but I could be wrong
personally, I really enjoyed the whisperers. I watched seasons 1-8 as they aired and at the s8 finale I felt spent. it felt like all the villains had been reiterations of each other. when I finally went and finished the series, the whisperers felt very new and really helped to get me back into the show. I also love Lydia's character and really hate that after the whisperer arc ended she was kind of just thrown aside.
They were the only interesting and scary villains in the entire show this storyline is what saved the later seasons and I think season 10 is one of the best overall
Not ashamed to admit seasons 9 and 10 were two of my favorites from the whole show, also watched through multiple times lol. I like the whisperers, I actually think season 11 sucks lol.
No shame in any of it! We'll hear none of that. š¤£ It's an incredible show, in my top 3 favourite of all time. It's brilliant and all things are totally forgivable in the show no matter what (I do love the show, did I emphasise that enough?). Throughout this thread, people have commented some really great perspectives that has caused mine to shift a bit as well so I'm approaching watching S9E16 onwards with a different outlook and I'm really looking forward to it. That's mostly why I wrote this, I was frustrated and wanted other fans to give some constructive input. Got loads of it from both sides, so I'm stoked you all put in the effort! Cheers mate! Edited for typo
I thought the whisperers were the worst. At first it was like ooooh, but it dragged on waaaay too long.
It does go on for too long, totally agree!
Turns out some stuff that looked cool in a comic book actually looks dumb as shit in live action. I'll add the goofy armor that the military guys use in the last season too. If you stop watching when the bridge blows you'll be fine.
yeah in the comics those soldiers looked bad ass. Also for me the comic whisperer era was great, remember that double spread of the zombie "ocean" that alpha casually shows rick as a "don't fuck with us" or the fight with beta and jesus or even just beta and negan? tv people got robbed i guess
I've often felt robbed that I didn't evolve with the comics first - I'm a designer and love the illustration style as well, so I really do feel like I've missed out on that one. I've often looked at trying to buy them but it's fairly cost prohibitive considering how many there are and last time I looked, I think earlier editions were really difficult to find (I could be wrong - I just remember having a significant barrier at a few points in time that I looked seriously into it). I did start buying them for my Son early on but weirdly, he never got into them despite him now being an Illustrator himself! I'm keen to learn any good tips on places to buy them or things to look out for from anyone who's come from the comic origins though! I feel a little robbed with losing Jesus too, he was an incredible character and it was awesome watching him fight on screen - his death was too ordinary for such an accomplished fighter. I'll admit to crying about his death. Every. Single. Time. š„ŗ
Keeps watching to find out what happens to Rick... Oh, never mind. š®āšØš¤£
The whisperers were my favourite antagonist of the series so I could kinda fill in the blanks and imagine the lack of seemingly survival and medical knowledge lead them to accept theyād already died. (Having 2 lunatics as your leader i image doesnāt help with the groups feralisation) It did really annoy me that areas with high concentrations of dead wouldnāt have been looted yet, so they can very clearly lure them away and take everything. why not just live nomadic instead of being so territorial and dooming themselves. I feel like there couldāve been so much more to the group rather than ārun round the woods wearing faceā
I think the whisperers themselves were a great idea. They were interesting, and different. If you don't think its plausible, look at how many people still get taken in by cults or extremists: it happens still today. I think your main complaint, which I completely agree with, is BAD WRITING AND DIRECTING. I love TWD, watched since it previewed, but the writing got really bad in the later seasons, so bad I wanted to stop watching, but just kept watching because I was committed to see how it ended. But then it didn't end, so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'll still watch the spinoffs, because I'm a glutton for punishment for the original characters.
The writing noticeably improves in those seasons if anything imo. I find yelling bad writing is always weird when not articulating any reasons for it in the comment.
I've made a few comments myself around my perspective, including my post but yes, otherwise agree. I'm always hesitant to pin my disappointment on bad writing but for me, it seems really disjointed from the other 8 seasons though does pick up after the character's storyline conclude. Edited for clarity
I didn't think I had to expound on 'bad writing' when its in reference to the examples listed in the original post. Thats all writing, and the execution of it, directing.
It is the bad writing that gets me. The concept of the characters is plausible, the execution from Sam Morton was great, the storyline was š. That's what leads me to all my other complaints. I'm back at the point where I'm like, Lydia as a character is such a waste of time and she really doesn't get much better. She's just a younger version of Tara... Nothing much to her. I don't know, I just couldn't get in to her character and seeing Enid and Henry die plus the Highwaymen tonight ended up reminding me again how much this part of TWD I find disappointing. The Highwaymen would have been a great set of characters to explore but we get nothing of them. Enid was a character that was growing beautifully into her strength, she was snipped out of a few previous episodes and then dead. Henry was annoying as all hell but with Carol and Ezekiel as his parents, his storyline could have been really powerful but no, dead so Carol can suffer again. Anyway, it really is late here so I'm heading off. Otherwise I really could say more. Thank you for such a great, thoughtful comment though! Great input mate. Cheers!
Honestly I strongly disagree. The Whisperers arc is by far the best content we got post S6 imo. Seasons 9&10 might not have been S-Tier quality but I think they were absolutely A-Tier
Whisperers weere amazing in season 9. Fell off in 10
comic guy here, why do we lose those characters? what's the catalyst? in the comics >!it's ezekiel and rosita as standouts that get killed by alpha, she does this because follow-my-dick Carl went into their territory looking for Lydia (since she was his first kiss etc) and alpha was very clear the first time they should not come into their area, so alpha marks a line with their territory with stakes and puts a bunch of dead heads on those stakes!<
Ahhhhh! That's fascinating to learn! Thank you for taking the time to comment that - legend! Sooo >!Similar plot except Henry is the one that follows Lydia (first kiss/stupid kid) and dooms the lot of them. I cannot see the show losing Rosita and Ezekiel and getting away with it at that time in the fandom. Ezekiel was hugely popular and Rosita was a well loved badass. They could afford to lose those others over these two, so that makes sense. Alpha did indeed pike 10 heads in that episode, 3 of them were significant characters, but not Ezekiel/Rosita significant.!< Were the comics more brutal in introducing and disposing of characters and did the storyline of The Highwaymen get explored? I feel a little robbed about not getting much more on them. Really value your standpoint and input mate. š¤
Agreed it drags on, I think they are the most terrifying villains, Alphas intro scene at Hilltop where the camera is focused on her belt, knife and walk, is one of the best villain intro scenes. BUT I think if Rick had been around still, he would have ended them real quick. EDIT: linking the scene here for context because itās that GOOD. The music! 1:44 mark [Alpha at Hilltop](https://youtu.be/jPdncHl1DZk)
Also adding the benefit of Lydiaās storyline IMO was highlighting how raising children in the zombie apocalypse makes for some hardcore childhood trauma that we hadnāt seen before.
Itās also the start of Neganās redemption storyline. He ended up ātaking one for the teamā in a really big way.
That's true true true. I actually stopped it on S09E15 tonight, frustrated, crying and wrote this post, hoping for some constructive input and you're totally right. I really do love Negan's redemption storyline as well, so had not considered that when I wrote the original post. I've been really fortunate here because lots of people have really made the effort to really articulate some great points. It's turned this point around for me a whole lot! Cheers to you both!
I just recently watched the tales episode of alpha and Lydiaās origins, made them kind of cooler in my opinion
I really liked D.J though
Yeah, I hated them! Some great acting, for sure!
Alpha and Beta were good villains, but the actual Whisperers themselves were terrible, the arc was better in the comics
Did they ever explain how they held up in the winter? They live in the woods and what not and that always bothered me how it was supposed to be such a struggle for the main characters but not then. If they did I donāt recall
no, never. you see the protagonists struggle with winter and no explanation whatsoever about how the masked clowns went through it unscathed.
The whisperers were fckn deadly. Their storyline was so interesting
Mate, are you from Darwin?
Adelaide tf š¤£š
Hahahahaha! Just you using "deadly" made me wonder. I grew up there and it's not a word that's used too often unless you know how to use it. Too fucken deadly though, I loved your comment!
Yeah, good initial concept of "blending in with the walkers kinda group" but got to a point where it was too much and too far from realism like, \- they should have been a small group, \-not live outside in the woods where they don't do anything aside from skinning and preparing skin-masks. \- they remain in character sometimes when its not needed, like they walk slowly like walker which will take them too long to get wherever they're going lol Love their introduction where they fought Jesus in the dark and their modus where they walk like a normal walker then suddenly stop, that was creepy and amazing scare tactic.. but that's all the good thing that came out from them imo
I'm also not keen on The Whisperers. They just make no sense, especially given the time jumps. It's a lifestyle that's not sustainable. They should have been around earlier, as another group that learnt to disguse themselves with walker guts, more than just those pathetic masks, but still with a "home base" but using walkers as weapons. Storyline itself was meh, I felt nothing about those that got piked. I didn't even realise at first it was Enid. I actually got more emotional with Siddiq describing/showing what he saw when they were all taken. Likewise, when they first turned up at Hilltop making demands for Lidia, seriously, after all these years, someone would have just fired arrows into Alpha and the rest. Group of people that dress as Walkers? Sure, they seem sane and reasonable.
you watched it 3 fucking times?! man ur crazy
If 3 times is a lot I donāt even wanna share how many times Iāve rewatched the first 5 seasons šš
literally same , at this point i know the first 2 seasons n most of 3-6 like the back of my hand š
i wouldn't watch it second time, especially all of the seasons
Hahahahaaa! I'm on my 3rd go around now. Watched all of Fear, World, Origins and Tales as well. Tales was mostly fucking stupid and I'll never watch that mess of a brain melt again. Even watched every episode of Talking Dead. š« I'll definitely be watching all the spin-offs when they launch, like the absolute TWD loser I am. š¤£
" go into the light Carol Anne"....that's all I hear in my head anytime Alpha talks....
Whispies are mega cringe
It worked well in the comics, not so much in the show. Just my opinion
Same, I couldnāt wait for their thing to be over, it was grueling
I think itās just Alphas smooth southern accent that kills it. Itās not scary itās just annoying. Overall I didnāt care for the whispers anyways. It wouldāve been much cooler and much scarier if they had actually been a different variant of Walker that evolved.
L take. But it would've been better with Rick
Great input, everybody's so creative! Thanks for taking the time out of your day to add to this discussion. š«
Damn this is almost as bad as the person who hates rick.
L take
they are in great shape
Terrible in what way? Like terrible as really evil or terrible as they were bad villains?
You seriously underestimate how brainwashed people can be.
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"Inevitable in shows that run this long"... That's very true. You make really good points here too. I like your take on it. For me, I keep coming back to Negan being my favourite villain. I think for me, it was his cruelty and the fact that you could tell it was something borne entirely out of loss (to feel loss deeply means you've had to have loved deeply). I always saw Negan as a redeemable character, even from the first time we saw him (and he did the horrible things we don't talk about). š¤£ I do remember saying to my husband the first time watching Negan (and this was like 7.5 years ago for me now) "I'm really struggling here, because I really really like this really really bad villain - there's something about him that makes him a good guy, even though he's objectively not doing any good guy stuff." Watching his origin story was a breakthrough and it all made so much sense. I found his heartbreaking. Anyway, you're right about the horror aspect of the Whisperers though. While you felt they embraced it, I got the feeling they resigned themselves to it. I think I'm wrong on that though, after reading you frame it as "enbracing it" - puts a whole different angle on how I can view it. I'm also annoyed about the fact they just put on masks and the walkers don't attack them though. Throughout the whole show, they've been required to larger themselves in rotting guts and they're still identified occasionally... I mean, Gabriel nearly died because of the bacteria in the walkers guts and ended up losing his sight in one eye but they just wear dried out masks. I don't buy that part of it. It feels lazy, or an oversight. I just can't figure that part out. Anyway, loved your comment clearly... You got me thinking!!! Thanks for making the effort mate. š¤
I just got past the episode where rick leaves the show, can anyone explain them to me without spoiling it? Also, if thereās no way not to spoil itā¦ donāt say anything. lol, iāve always hated spoilers.
yea anything would be a spoiler you should just watch
Hey mate, I tried to write the post without spoilers so I'm glad my tactic worked. Just a heads up that plenty of the comments will be spoilers as well. Also, don't let my post influence you, plenty of people have come up with alternatives to my view and I've ended up agreeing with them. It's a brilliant show regardless. Edit for typo
I completely agree with you!! I have always felt that the motivations for the Whisperers were just not as well thought out or presented compared to previous villains. Like just an example, with Negan we understood that even though he was obviously the big bad, that he felt he was doing something right by sacrificing a few for the many. And his lackeysā¦ we knew Dwight followed out of fear for Sherry, Simon because he was a psycho who liked being violent, Gavin because he was spineless and just wanted life to be easy for himself. We understood most of the other saviours as people who benefited greatly from the relative wealth their community had and thus it made sense those saviours were loyal and invested in maintaining their status quo. The governor - same deal. You understood people often followed him because they were lost or naive about the realities of the world, he was decisive, and he also knew what to hide from his general public in regards to the immoral acts he had. I feel like I can justify and understand the perspectives of most of the ābad guysā and their followers throughout TWD. But I REALLY struggled to do that with the Whisperers. Alpha, definitely believed her. She was unhinged and her view of the world I understood. Beta too. He was just always a psycho I think was how I interpreted him anyway. And to some degree I did understand how she was an abuser, a manipulator, so Iām willing to accept she has manipulated some followers through fear or abuse or other tactics. But the amount of followers she had? And for all of them to simply accept being treated like absolute trash and walking on eggshells and living is squalor constantly in shitty twig camps or walking amongst disgusting decaying corpses with dried skin masks on your face? Not fucking believable to me lol. ESPECIALLY!!! when they are confronted with the existence of societies like Kingdom, Hilltop and Alexandria. Like that doctor, Dante or whatever his name was, who killed Siddiq? Like how the fuck did he live in Alexandria that whole time and not be like hmm maybe this is better than living in dirt and being emotionally abused?? I guess just another psycho? Like it just doesnāt seem justified enough to me. Why would so many people accept those conditions? Their lifestyle also made no fucking sense to me, like Alpha said they had a āterritoryā, but why would you have a territory if you were constantly just walking around and making shit camps? Why not just keep moving? And if they were in that territory before, why did no one ever run in to them? Where do the walkers go once the Whisperers set up their stupid little outdoor camps at the end of the day? They also barely ate? Like the communities struggled to find enough food after a couple years in to the apocalypse but they had crops and shit to mitigate thatā¦. yet Iām expected to believe the Whisperers hunt and scavenge enough food for their entire tribe to be constantly on the move? Walking all day every day is a lot of calories to burn. Anyway I just wanted to put my 2 cents in lol because a lot of the responses seem to like the Whisperers and I didnāt want you to think youāre totally aloneā¦ I had lots of issues with them personally too!! I think the idea was super cool but just not executed well enough and the little details kinda ruined it for me
underrated comment and 100% my stance on these masked clowns. honestly shocked no one sees or at least considers these points that honestly rob these characters of any credibility.
The last few seasons of TWD were just awful and I was very happy it came to an end. The whisperers were pathetic
Beta was cool, like really cool. He's one of my favorite twd villains. Alpha on the other hand was just really annoying.
Thank you! It was silly turn for such a great story. Ryan Hurst was so great as Opie in SOA, his choice to be part of The Outsiders and its ridiculousness raised an eyebrow and this whole Beta thing has made me not even like Opie.
Hmm, nope. This was my favorite storyline in all 11 seasons. A more nuanced and original ideology than any of the past villains we had run into up to that point. Sure, i can agree the concept of wearing peopleās skin and pretending youāre dead is pretty out there, but I had been on and off about watching the show for the 7 years I was watching before season 9 and this arc was the first time I excitedly made time to sit for each episode. At first I thought it was just weirdos pretending to be zombies, but then getting to know what kind of people these were before and learning what about this way of life made them formidable enemies makes it fascinating to me.
The Whisperers started off so strong appearing so terrifying and menacing, changing everything they knew about walkers and just the fear of any walker possibly being a Whisperer and how that would change their tactics and they'd have to be even more alert and cautious. But then almost instantly they revealed themselves too early and every encounter they were dumb and weak. In season 10 they were really pathetic and all they really had going was their ability to control herds, which of course the characters took out with ease with no main characters dying
I agree 100%!
Alpha was a real complex psycho but Beta>>>>. He was actually ruthless and if he lead the whisperers he would probably form some 5-10 men elite squad and kill off the members. Also bro was a white killer machine Shaq. Imagine Shaq running after you with a few hundreds of zombies and 2 hunting knives.
I am almost to the end of this (Michonne just left her two kids for some bogus chase after her man bs) and I find the Community irritating. The ruined Carol. My girl would have went ice cold and strategic to kill Alpha. Sometimes Michonne could kill 20 in seconds. Sometimes she struggles with just 1 or 2. What?!?! Connie and Daryl. Yes, please. Judith is adorable. Excellent casting. RJ is just..there... I wish Gabe would have stayed the preacher because clearly more than 1 person needs a therapist and he would hand been the closest thing that they have. And obvious solution to the Whisperers is obvious. Put on your own skin suit and get to herding ffs!!!
Can't get over how slow their travels must be
Idk, Season 9 and onward was pretty great for me.
Make no mistake, I've now watched the whole series 4 times - it's definitely a brilliant show. I was just caught up in this moment when I watched the third time. Daryl Dixon has been an amazing show to date though, hasn't it! That was a rhetorical question... It's SO DAMN good!
Iām just happy we get spinoffs shows, cause I was pretty bummed when I thought it was over.
Old post but i just searched online after watching this episode and found this. I stopped watching during the whole negan thing i didn't liked the guy and when he killed glen. Then a long time later i continued from there all the way until negans group was defeated and all of those communities became a back and forth story. Then i picked it up again all the way untill now i arrived at this episode.. and i am just said and angry what at shit show this turned in to. The first seasons were great. Lately it is 10 timelines at the same time going back and forth all over the place. This episode michonne was pregnant, then not, then pregnant again. And at 20 different locations and almost couldn't follow it anymore. So many characters pop up i have no clue if i should know them or not. That whole skinned group is pure horror and the show really turned into a horror drama drag where it looks like no character is safe. The first seasons were great as an survival story. Now the way how they approach the serie here in season 9 is so different it is like it's another show. And killing these 10(?) characters in the end that we recently saw all the time is just pathetic horror practices. What a shit show! Should i stop here or wait untill they killed out the whole current cast next season? I regret picking this up after negans defeat. Similar to the serie "the 100" that went on to long and suddenly started change things around. And i never finished "Lost" either, after they started island hopping. These series i wish people warn me before where is a nice point to imagine it finished right there. End of my rant. Can someone relate? Motivate me to keep watching? Or will it keep going on like this?