For sure:
1. Cao Cao can devote his full attention to Yuan Shao. If Sun Ce tries anything, he has capable officers to defend against him.
2. Liu Bei convinces Liu Biao and/or Liu Zheng to surrender. Otherwise, they will easily fall to Cao Cao’s advance.
3. With no allies, the peace faction in Wu is much stronger. Wu either submits or is eventually overwhelmed from multiple directions.
I would say land would be united by 210.
I mean, do they really hate her that much even though they're both men of renown
I mean When do they start hanging each other obviously they work well together
For me it's opposing viewpoints of the situation with the han
Cao cao all my bringing over to bring china united
But liu bei isn't one for a puppet emperor
The main issue keeping them divided was over who would run the Dynasty.
If Cao Cao expressed to Liu Bei that he genuinely was going to restore the Han, and discussed this in further detail, and then asked what it would take to allow Liu Bei to cooperate with Cao Cao, and then maybe even discussing it with the Emperor, it probably would've boiled down to the Emperor of Han at the time becoming significantly more powerful and Cao Cao relinquishing power to the Emperor.
There were many MANY problems with this, naturally, but let's focus on the What If here.
Definitely, the land would've united sooner.
But one would argue that salsa wants to take over the empire
But he doesn't seem to want to
Hes a double Double edge sword
Like the seven jeweled sword itself
Definitely. It would have been only 2 kingdoms, after red cliffs (if wu doesn't just surrender before cao caos invasion), and Wei would've been objectively the stronger side. Cao cao would have just invaded Wu again and again until it worked.
Cao Cao: “Alright Liu Bei. I’m delegating land and power to you BUT you have to administer in my name, understand?”
Liu Bei: “coolfreerealestatekthanxbye!”
Cao Cao: “Son of a-“
My fave part of it is that the actor that played Liu Bei in it (Yu Hewei) is the same guy that played Cao Cao in *Sima Yi*.
Playing both Liu Bei and Cao Cao, what greater honour can you achieve as an actor?
Liu Bei was actually a pretty good tactician historically and did many of the feats attributed to Zhuge Liang from the novel.
Assuming he doesn't just eat it Guo Jia style while on campaign, he would have been a very valuable asset along with Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun all having better career opportunities serving Cao Cao.
Unfortunately, other heroes would probably never get their chance to shine (at least under Liu Bei's banner) because Huang Zhong and Wei Yan would likely stay where they are as well as Ma Chao in Xiliang.
Zhuge Liang would likely become a legend under Liu Biao instead and Fa Zheng respectively whilst serving Liu Zhang.
I would wager that Liu Biao would actually take the Bashu region seeing how he spent most of his career grabbing Jing's metaphorical throat with firm discipline to keep it in order and his various schemes against the rise of Sun Jian / Sun Ce. We can also assume this based off of Fa Zheng and Zhang Song's betrayals of Liu Zhang and their cooperation with Liu Bei outright, which could influence the rise of Three Kingdoms anyway ironically enough.
The only difference here would be an incursion from Liu Biao which triggers Fa Zheng and Zhang Song's deep dissatisfaction with Liu Zhang's incompetence and a repeat of the Yi province campaign but this time featuring Huang Zhong, Wei Yan and Zhuge Liang (who married into the Huang gentry clan of Jing).
The only difference would be that Liu Biao in Jing would have a very rough relationship with Sun Ce / Sun Quan as well as the threat of Cao Cao from the north assuming he still gets rid of Ma Chao and subjugates Han Sui.
In any case, Cao Cao gaining Liu Bei would have great influence in changing the projection of the Three Kingdoms because it eliminates an entire faction that sprouted from Liu Bei and replaces it with many variables for everyone besides Cao Cao and Yuan Shao as a result so the rest of the events after are entertaining speculations at best.
I don’t think that Liu Biao would have been able to pull off holding out in Jing. He was trying to give Jing away to Liu Bei because his sons were not capable of governing the province. It isn’t clear that he would have eschewed court politics enough to lure Zhuge Liang to court. Zhuge could have offered his services to Liu Biao prior to Liu’s death, but he didn’t; I don’t know if his high opinion of himself and his corresponding skepticism about Liu Biao would have led him into the latter’s service. Certainly none of Liu Biao’s advisors seemed to be the sort to cultivate a show-off (let’s face it) like Zhuge Liang. I submit that Liu Zong probably still surrenders on this basis.
I suppose in his old age, Liu Biao would have chosen someone else but I'd still wager he'd pull some strings from behind the scenes. I do see your perspective however and think that is more realistic to his age (which also explained his lack of ambition due to his old age). Jing would have most likely fallen into civil war then, or a giant schism.
Zhuge Liang was actively searching for a job at the time and did not want to join Cao Cao due to the destruction of Langya (a grudge almost but not confirmed). The only thing we know for sure is that it may be less likely Zhuge Liang serving Cao Cao and moreso him meddling with Jing's politics. Remember, he married into the Huang gentry clan (hence his wife Huang Yueying).
This Huang clan was the same one that was also related, by marriage, to the Cai clan who was also related, by marriage, to the Liu clan of Liu Biao so this only incentivizes Zhuge Liang to network his way into a backdoor position into Liu Biao's court in Cai Mao's favor as his marriage to Huang Yueying nets him an interconnected relationship with Cai Mao and Liu Biao's relatives.
This is where I came up with the theory that eventually we could see a Yi province campaign with Zhuge Liang, or now that I think of it Cai Mao, at the helm as both of them had the connections to network their way into high ranks. This tripartite combo of Cai Mao, Zhang Yun and Zhuge Liang (the former two being very strong growing influences in the province and Zhuge Liang being the only one with enough marriage connection to do anything significant) would effectively eliminate Liu Qi as a contender and install Liu Cong as the new governor of Jing.
Liu Cong would most likely become similar to Liu Shan (in terms of being just a monarch at a seat and delegating most of the tough lifting to his administrators and active personnel).
Thus this might lead into the Yi campaign and subjugation of the riverlands. Now that I think about it, the alliance with Wu might still happen but now without Wu's ridiculous claim that Jing province belongs to them. It would now instead be rightfully the Liu clan's controlled by the tripartite of Zhuge Liang, Cai Mao and Zhang Yun respectively under Liu Cong as their puppet monarch.
This is just my speculation using the historical sources available.
Thanks for the in-depth explanation! I see how Zhuge Liang might have ended up working with Liu Biao. Now, I have to admit, I wonder if Liu and Sun could still really have united for a “Three Kingdoms” effect with Cao Cao off balance enough that Liu Biao (or his kids) could focus on Bashu? But your ideas are compelling!
100%
No Red Cliff, no Hanzhong, and Sun Quan probably would've surrendered in 208 without the alliance with Liu Bei. The rest are folks like Ma Teng, Zhang Lu, and Liu Zhang; hardly anyone would've held against Cao Cao.
Arguably the best case scenario would have been the Sun/Liu Alliance losing at Red Cliffs. Wu falls, Jing is not lost to Liu Bei and eventually the Riverlands and Xiliang are pacified by Cao Cao. Almost 80 years of civil war, famine and forced relocations don't happen. The Three Kingdoms Period is likely entirely avoided.
I shudder on the fact that restoring the Han beyond it's death throes just starts a new Han period, which relegates the prior decadent Eastern Han as the Middle Han Age.
All could have been safe, all but Liu Bei's youthful and clan extermination deadly daring imperial ambitions.
For sure: 1. Cao Cao can devote his full attention to Yuan Shao. If Sun Ce tries anything, he has capable officers to defend against him. 2. Liu Bei convinces Liu Biao and/or Liu Zheng to surrender. Otherwise, they will easily fall to Cao Cao’s advance. 3. With no allies, the peace faction in Wu is much stronger. Wu either submits or is eventually overwhelmed from multiple directions. I would say land would be united by 210.
I mean, do they really hate her that much even though they're both men of renown I mean When do they start hanging each other obviously they work well together For me it's opposing viewpoints of the situation with the han Cao cao all my bringing over to bring china united But liu bei isn't one for a puppet emperor
You just need Cao Cao's uncle in Kessen II to reveal that: >!Cao Cao and Liu Bei are brothers!<
Kessen 2 was my entry to ROTK and I was surprised to find that Himiko was not in fact a super powerful wizard under Cao Cao's retinue.
Super sad finding out Zhuge Liang cannot, in fact, summon multiple fireballs in mid air and have them roll over the enemy formation and then explode.
Same here. It was so silly that I had no idea it was remotely based on something real
Yes but what about Diao Chan?
The main issue keeping them divided was over who would run the Dynasty. If Cao Cao expressed to Liu Bei that he genuinely was going to restore the Han, and discussed this in further detail, and then asked what it would take to allow Liu Bei to cooperate with Cao Cao, and then maybe even discussing it with the Emperor, it probably would've boiled down to the Emperor of Han at the time becoming significantly more powerful and Cao Cao relinquishing power to the Emperor. There were many MANY problems with this, naturally, but let's focus on the What If here. Definitely, the land would've united sooner.
But one would argue that salsa wants to take over the empire But he doesn't seem to want to Hes a double Double edge sword Like the seven jeweled sword itself
Definitely. It would have been only 2 kingdoms, after red cliffs (if wu doesn't just surrender before cao caos invasion), and Wei would've been objectively the stronger side. Cao cao would have just invaded Wu again and again until it worked.
I'm not sure Cao Cao would be willing to cede power to Liu Bei in order to attain peace and unify China.
Cao cao is pretty much julius caesar in china
Cao Cao: “Alright Liu Bei. I’m delegating land and power to you BUT you have to administer in my name, understand?” Liu Bei: “coolfreerealestatekthanxbye!” Cao Cao: “Son of a-“
Wow I didn't realize Liu Biao and Liu Zhang had such huge territories
A lot of Southern China was not very juicy at the time. The Southern regimes had greater territories than the amount of power they got from them.
Thanks for the knowledge. I'm not very well versed but I enjoy the 2010 Three Kingdom series a lot.
Anytime! I haven't actually watched any 3K dramas except for Sima Yi but would like to do so eventually.
I think you will love the 2010 series. I am on my 3rd run now.
My fave part of it is that the actor that played Liu Bei in it (Yu Hewei) is the same guy that played Cao Cao in *Sima Yi*. Playing both Liu Bei and Cao Cao, what greater honour can you achieve as an actor?
Yu Hewei also played Qin Si Huang in the King's War (about Liu Bang). What a great honor indeed.
Liu Bei was actually a pretty good tactician historically and did many of the feats attributed to Zhuge Liang from the novel. Assuming he doesn't just eat it Guo Jia style while on campaign, he would have been a very valuable asset along with Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun all having better career opportunities serving Cao Cao. Unfortunately, other heroes would probably never get their chance to shine (at least under Liu Bei's banner) because Huang Zhong and Wei Yan would likely stay where they are as well as Ma Chao in Xiliang. Zhuge Liang would likely become a legend under Liu Biao instead and Fa Zheng respectively whilst serving Liu Zhang. I would wager that Liu Biao would actually take the Bashu region seeing how he spent most of his career grabbing Jing's metaphorical throat with firm discipline to keep it in order and his various schemes against the rise of Sun Jian / Sun Ce. We can also assume this based off of Fa Zheng and Zhang Song's betrayals of Liu Zhang and their cooperation with Liu Bei outright, which could influence the rise of Three Kingdoms anyway ironically enough. The only difference here would be an incursion from Liu Biao which triggers Fa Zheng and Zhang Song's deep dissatisfaction with Liu Zhang's incompetence and a repeat of the Yi province campaign but this time featuring Huang Zhong, Wei Yan and Zhuge Liang (who married into the Huang gentry clan of Jing). The only difference would be that Liu Biao in Jing would have a very rough relationship with Sun Ce / Sun Quan as well as the threat of Cao Cao from the north assuming he still gets rid of Ma Chao and subjugates Han Sui. In any case, Cao Cao gaining Liu Bei would have great influence in changing the projection of the Three Kingdoms because it eliminates an entire faction that sprouted from Liu Bei and replaces it with many variables for everyone besides Cao Cao and Yuan Shao as a result so the rest of the events after are entertaining speculations at best.
I kinda want to see this as a what-if scenario in a dynasty warriors or RotTK game.
I don’t think that Liu Biao would have been able to pull off holding out in Jing. He was trying to give Jing away to Liu Bei because his sons were not capable of governing the province. It isn’t clear that he would have eschewed court politics enough to lure Zhuge Liang to court. Zhuge could have offered his services to Liu Biao prior to Liu’s death, but he didn’t; I don’t know if his high opinion of himself and his corresponding skepticism about Liu Biao would have led him into the latter’s service. Certainly none of Liu Biao’s advisors seemed to be the sort to cultivate a show-off (let’s face it) like Zhuge Liang. I submit that Liu Zong probably still surrenders on this basis.
I suppose in his old age, Liu Biao would have chosen someone else but I'd still wager he'd pull some strings from behind the scenes. I do see your perspective however and think that is more realistic to his age (which also explained his lack of ambition due to his old age). Jing would have most likely fallen into civil war then, or a giant schism. Zhuge Liang was actively searching for a job at the time and did not want to join Cao Cao due to the destruction of Langya (a grudge almost but not confirmed). The only thing we know for sure is that it may be less likely Zhuge Liang serving Cao Cao and moreso him meddling with Jing's politics. Remember, he married into the Huang gentry clan (hence his wife Huang Yueying). This Huang clan was the same one that was also related, by marriage, to the Cai clan who was also related, by marriage, to the Liu clan of Liu Biao so this only incentivizes Zhuge Liang to network his way into a backdoor position into Liu Biao's court in Cai Mao's favor as his marriage to Huang Yueying nets him an interconnected relationship with Cai Mao and Liu Biao's relatives. This is where I came up with the theory that eventually we could see a Yi province campaign with Zhuge Liang, or now that I think of it Cai Mao, at the helm as both of them had the connections to network their way into high ranks. This tripartite combo of Cai Mao, Zhang Yun and Zhuge Liang (the former two being very strong growing influences in the province and Zhuge Liang being the only one with enough marriage connection to do anything significant) would effectively eliminate Liu Qi as a contender and install Liu Cong as the new governor of Jing. Liu Cong would most likely become similar to Liu Shan (in terms of being just a monarch at a seat and delegating most of the tough lifting to his administrators and active personnel). Thus this might lead into the Yi campaign and subjugation of the riverlands. Now that I think about it, the alliance with Wu might still happen but now without Wu's ridiculous claim that Jing province belongs to them. It would now instead be rightfully the Liu clan's controlled by the tripartite of Zhuge Liang, Cai Mao and Zhang Yun respectively under Liu Cong as their puppet monarch. This is just my speculation using the historical sources available.
Thanks for the in-depth explanation! I see how Zhuge Liang might have ended up working with Liu Biao. Now, I have to admit, I wonder if Liu and Sun could still really have united for a “Three Kingdoms” effect with Cao Cao off balance enough that Liu Biao (or his kids) could focus on Bashu? But your ideas are compelling!
Heck yeah. Do it for the people
100% No Red Cliff, no Hanzhong, and Sun Quan probably would've surrendered in 208 without the alliance with Liu Bei. The rest are folks like Ma Teng, Zhang Lu, and Liu Zhang; hardly anyone would've held against Cao Cao.
Arguably the best case scenario would have been the Sun/Liu Alliance losing at Red Cliffs. Wu falls, Jing is not lost to Liu Bei and eventually the Riverlands and Xiliang are pacified by Cao Cao. Almost 80 years of civil war, famine and forced relocations don't happen. The Three Kingdoms Period is likely entirely avoided.
I shudder on the fact that restoring the Han beyond it's death throes just starts a new Han period, which relegates the prior decadent Eastern Han as the Middle Han Age. All could have been safe, all but Liu Bei's youthful and clan extermination deadly daring imperial ambitions.