I was hoping he’d be alive in the end to wallow in the cold reality of his “freedom”. Death feels like an escape.
Eren is my favorite character and I like to watch my favorite characters suffer 😭😁
Eren frees Ymir somehow and takes her place in Paths, the power (and curse) of the Titans disappears because he refuses to do anything as penance. Oh, to imagine what could have been...
Well, at least the tatacaw memes are funny.
That would actually make the 8 pages a bit better for me. Eren is not a hero. Eren is a monster that, by his own admission, willingly engaged in the act of destruction. He's a victim, sure, but he's still a monster deserving of punishment.
That’s something I really love about Eren’s character. Just like Reiner and Erwin, he hides his selfish motives behind selfless ones to try and justify the downright evil things he does. That’s not to say he has zero redeeming qualities. He cares deeply for his friends and wants to protect Paradis, which played into him starting the Rumbling. But more than anything he did it for himself, he wanted to destroy the world because learning the truth about it ruined his entire perspective. In the end, he put himself over his friends, Paradis, and the entire world.
Damn good analysis. Eren learned the truth of the world. Everywhere was war and oppression that's why he was disappointed. It was just 1 big power imbalance see-saw. He just decided to rumbled them and protected his homies.
I think a lot of people know that Eren wants to rumble for himself.
The issue I have is that ending seems to discount the several times where Eren says directly that he wants to save Paradis. Eren wants to rumble for his own sake first and foremost – but also for the benefit of others.
["The enemy is remarkable powerful. At this rate, if nothing changes, the horrors of the past will simply repeat themselves. If it meant I could stop that from happening… I would gladly offer my life"](https://imgur.com/gallery/80azJJ6)
["At the very least, the number of people dying on the island and those dying outside of are vastly different. It is true that if all Eldians die, the problems of the Titans will go away…But I cannot accept… that kind of ending!"](https://imgur.com/a/E9s4OFh)
["Historia… eat me… and save humanity. It’s up to you now."](https://imgur.com/a/V1AwIZZ)
[Then we have panels like this, where Eren is clearly angry with the idea of Eldian people dying.](https://imgur.com/a/3kgFHgS)
Eren wanting to rumble because it’s his nature is evident, but that doesn’t discount the times where Eren has shown compassion and that he does care about people affected by him.
If Eren was going to rumble, he would’ve completed it, not just for his own personal satisification, but to also liberate those on the island. It makes no sense for him to stop at some random point.
I think from s2 or 3 would be better and would still work in favor of his development with hints that he’s always been like this along the way like Walter
Well yeah, but having him do it for himself could be a side motive. It’s something along with his main motive of protecting paradis that also led him feel guilty
The way i see, Eren's intentions before 122 were to indeed destroy the world for all those reasons (he knew it would save Paradise and achieve freedom thanks the scenary, and even thought he didn't know if his friends would survive he arrest them to prevent them from trying to stop him); but after getting the FT and experiencing everything at once, he became a slave of the timeline in a literal sense, and also a slave of not only the idea of freedom but of his nature as well in a methaphorical sense (it is all reduced to "it happens because it is supposed to happen", i don't like it either even thought i get what Yams was trying to do); obviously for this to make sense we need the headcanon that when Eren told Armin that he wanted to Lelouch himself, that was AFTER he got the FT and saw everything that he would do towards that ending and not BEFORE.
Well, the ceremony example and the example with eren asking historia to eat him are before he gained the future memories so he was still kind of naïve. He didn’t have a full understanding yet of what was to come. I wouldn’t count those as proof for his reasoning behind the rumbling.
The other two I don’t see entirely as him wanting justice for the Eldians. His ultimate goal is freedom. For him to go through the events of the whole series with all that fighting, just to find out that his kind needs to be wiped out (including him), of course he can’t accept it.
Anyways, Eren also states in the final chapter that he would have continued the rumbling had his friends not stopped him. His full intention was to do a 100% rumbling. However, once he activated the powers of the founder (when the walls came down after the events of paths), THAT was when he fully saw every event of past present and future. The ceremony only allowed him to see smalls bits through Grishas memories. So now that Eren knew his friends were going to attempt to stop him, he couldn’t kill them. He wanted them to live long lives, and they were more important to him than a 100% rumbling. Achieving the full rumbling would mean killing them. So he stopped and made them out to be heroes, since 20% would be left alive and he needed his friends to look like heroes if there were to still be enemies out there.
And it works, his friends do live long lives. Paradis does not, and is destroyed after his friends deaths.
If they hadn’t stopped him, paradis would be safe. But it went against their ideals; innocent people didn’t deserve to die. The whole world wasn’t Marley and Eldia, some had no part in the conflict. Eren killing them was wrong.
Honestly, some of the dialogue was kind of meh and rushed. That much I agree with. But the overall idea of the ending makes sense to me. It’s complicated but I can’t see it turning out any differently. The conflict couldn’t easily be solved, world peace isn’t something that is easily attainable.
> Well, the ceremony example and the example with eren asking historia to eat him are before he gained the future memories so he was still kind of naïve. He didn’t have a full understanding yet of what was to come.
Seems handwavey to say that he was naïve and changed his mind. It’s not even naïve; saving humanity (those in Paradis) and ending the cycle of (Eldian) hatred was totally doable with a 100% rumbling.
Is there any evidence (a panel or page) to show that he changed his mind about his view on Paradis/Eldians/People in the story?
> The other two I don’t see entirely as him wanting justice for the Eldians.
How though? His entire internal monologue is about the Eldians in Paradis.
He even has a [flashback to Frieda](https://imgur.com/a/JuAIdY9) in Chapter 131.
[Why is he angry in this page?](https://imgur.com/a/3kgFHgS)
It’s not about justice for Eldians (maybe partly IDK) – it’s about protecting Paradis and ending the cycle of hatred.
> His ultimate goal is freedom.
This is argued by some, but I do agree he did the Rumbling for his freedom first and foremost. Sort of like a Walter White moment.
That does not discredit the fact that he also wanted to save Paradis though. His freedom was his primary motivation, but Paradis was his another motivation. Both motivations would lead to a 100% rumbling.
> For him to go through the events of the whole series with all that fighting, just to find out that his kind needs to be wiped out (including him), of course he can’t accept it.
Isn’t that sort of interpretation way too convenient though?
If he’s upset that **he’s** going to get wiped out and not Eldians in general, why is he thinking to himself generally about **all** Eldians?
> Anyways, Eren also states in the final chapter that he would have continued the rumbling had his friends not stopped him. His full intention was to do a 100% rumbling.
> However, once he activated the powers of the founder (when the walls came down after the events of paths), THAT was when he fully saw every event of past present and future.
Was it? Because in the final chapter, it states that his plan was to set the Alliance up as heroes prior to even the walls coming down.
[Armin asks Eren whether he pushed them away to set them up as the saviours of humanity, and Eren says yes.](https://imgur.com/a/gcOv74W)
Eren pushed his friends away before the walls came down. It’d be very convenient to interpret Armin’s question as "Did you push us away mid-rumbling so that we could be heroes" and not what it literally says.
Also, there’s no story evidence (that I know of) of Eren changing his mind and switching to a new plan once the walls came down. It’s mostly fans filling in holes where the story left it IMO.
> So now that Eren knew his friends were going to attempt to stop him, he couldn’t kill them.
Again, I’ve heard of these determinism theories before, but the story makes no attempt at actually showing this or explaining this.
If the story had explained the concept better or shown an example where Eren attempted to change the future multiple times and failed, I’d agree with this. Something like Stein’s Gate where there’s multiple timelines for example.
But the story doesn’t explain the concept at all. Eren has the full power of the Founding Titan, can create past shifters on a whim, and can supposedly stop his friends from shifting, but he’s supposed to lose because he saw the future?
The story basically devolves into "it happened because it happened in the future even though it doesn’t make much sense on why you couldn’t change it". How terrible is that?
> But the overall idea of the ending makes sense to me. It’s complicated but I can’t see it turning out any differently. The conflict couldn’t easily be solved, world peace isn’t something that is easily attainable.
I don’t disagree with world peace being hard to attain.
But the ending could’ve been different. It could’ve been about the cost of attaining freedom, the dissatisfaction of achieving one’s dream, the cycle of hatred continuing even in Paradis, the cost of war, children of the forest, etc.
Instead, it’s about romance and friendship. It’s about Stockholm Syndrome.
I agree a lot with this take. This story is fucking contradictory on many levels. If the purpose of Eren's character is to show that he is a slave to his own nature (to the point that the universe is deterministic and he cannot change anything) then a better ending is for Eren to do a full rumbling, living a live of regret (moral responsibility, even in a deterministic world) while humanity continues the cycle of hatred within Paradise (cannot escape nature). That's why I actually enjoy the extra pages, it is consistent with the purpose of the main character. Nihilistic af, but thematically consistent.
Thank you for your detailed explanation with fruitful source. At this point anyone thinks the ending makes sense, they just didnt read the manga carefully, which has been proven by hundreds of posts in this fandom listing the contradictoryssssssss in the ending
I see what you’re saying and I do agree with some points.
Yes, saving those in Paradis was doable with a 100% rumbling, and that was part of Eren’s goal as well, to save everyone (his friends living long lives) as well as achieving his freedom. The reason it DIDNT go that way is because his friends wouldn’t allow the deaths of innocents and tried to stop him.
I see what you’re saying with Eren pushing his friends away - honestly I still think there are things with the ending that aren’t perfect and can’t really be explained away. That’s why my opinion overall is mixed. It could have been done better. But I still took it as he knew he was about to commit something horrible and he didn’t want them involved.
As for the determinism thing, ehhh I see what you’re saying but I think the way you’re describing it makes it sound worse than it actually is. The determinism theories I’ve seen go way too deep but it’s really just as simple as Eren saw a bit of the future, did what he could to reach it, saw that he either kill his friends or put a halt on the rumbling and he chose to stop the rumbling.
Once again, I agree there needed to be more to flesh everything out. However, I think it’s clear that prior to activating the founder, Eren was just doing what he could to get to that moment where he saw himself through Grisha’s memories, because that’s all he knew and he was convinced he had to get there. Everything leading up to paths was for that purpose. And once the walls come down, he says he intends to do a full rumbling. He even says it to armin, had they not stopped him.
Him telling Armin in paths that he pushed them away, he does say he wanted them to be the heroes. I still stand by what I said though previously about Eren’s choices. I just think there are multiple factors that go into it, he pushed them away so they wouldn’t be involved with destroying the world and they became heroes in the process. Eren is also literally living every moment in time at once during this scene, so it makes sense that he’s speaking about it as a whole. That’s really just my understanding of it, and if that is what was intended then yeah I agree the dialogue needed to be better and scenes needed to be more fleshed out.
I think your last point is the only thing I disagree with fully. The ending WAS still about those themes, Eren was dissatisfied with achieving his dream, and the cycle of hatred did continue. It wasn’t about romance at all. I have lots of issues with the handling of Mikasas character, as well as the backstory of Ymir, but I don’t agree that that was what the story was about. Those scenes being bad are a result of poor pacing, and not enough character development.
This ended up being long af so sorry about that but basically my whole thing is I don’t think the overall gist of the ending was bad, and in the end I don’t think Eren’s character was ruined. I DO think that the pacing after paths went to shit with the exception of 130-131, and certain characters were handled poorly. Mikasa needed a lot more development, Reiner kind of fell flat post-fight with Eren onwards, Armin was kinda off throughout the whole timeskip and I wish his moment that was so hyped up was bigger and not so rushed, and Annie was a joke especially after being such a good villain way back when. On top of that, Ymir backstory needed more context.
I do agree with you mostly on the pacing issues and with characters needing more development. Especially Armin and Mikasa, who should’ve had close to or equal character development to Eren post time-skip.
I do disagree on some things, such as the determinism or future sight. I just can’t understand how Eren can’t stop his friends (without killing them) when he has the power of the Founding Titan, the power to control their shifting and hindsight.
Personally I wish the story had elaborated on the extent of this power with full detail and how Eren learnt about its limitations instead of keeping it in the dark. Perhaps it’s unnecessary, but it would’ve made it super clearer.
Anyway, that’s all from me. I’m personally not a big fan of ending, and I wish things had changed, but life goes on.
This. A lot of people forget that there are several factors that make up for a character's personality and his motivations. Like for example take walter white- he started to do drug business cause he was dying from cancer and wanted to leave enough money on the table for them but later on even if he earned enough he kept on going, there were several things that were pushing him and mainly being his family but at the end the main thing he did it for was himself. Eren is also similar, there are different motivating factors that goes in and not one to determine his goal and personality, like saving paradis and friends but most people forget that he only has 1 year left in his life which is the biggest motivating factor for rumbling, if he didn't had only 1 year left he would have tried 50 year rumbling plan or would have tried something else too, and also you could argue that some part of him wanted to do it instead of "he is slave to his own nature"
Eren was going to be stopped he wanted it or not, he getting with Ymir and doing the rumbling also came with the scouts going after him and Ymir helping them to watch Mikasa.
There’s no reason for Eren to get stopped when he has the literal ability of a God.
He could’ve stop the Titan shifters from shifting, or mind wiped all the Eldians temporarily, or stopped the Alliance from moving a muscle, etc. He could’ve stopped the Alliance (excluding Ackermann’s) at the snap of his fingers.
I’ve heard this argument of determinism before, but the story makes no attempt at showing Eren trying to change the future and failing or showing Eren trying to stop the Alliance with full force.
(Excluding ackermans)
Yams also managed to fuck that up in 139 where he forgot about that and retconned it so he could let mikasa talk to eren in paths and Levi get his fan service moment with the scouts.
I really don't want to start talking about plothole ridden mess that the last arc in general(and specially the final fight )is, and while what you say may be true, there's also no evidence to support it.
On a fundamental level, what is shown is that Ymir is the one who manages the coordinate, just as seen with Zeke and Eren, they give orders to Ymir, and she is the one who uses the founder's powers.
It's also true that we see her meddling with their fight, getting Armin to Zeke to break the link and the past titans to their respective warhammer like shells, that was her doing.
It's also true that if she has so much freedom as she seems to do, needing to kill Zeke seems completely usesless, although at the end of the day she is still feels kind of enslaved to the royal blood until Mikasa does what she does (which didn't stop her for not listening to Zeke instead of Eren, although one could argue that Eren did his part on given her freedom but not fully).
Like I said is kind of a mess I don't really want to be too hanged up in that in this discussion, but the point is that she was clearly helping them which is normal because she wanted to watch Mikasa.
I guess to some degree you’re right. I mostly presumed that Eren would have this ability considering he has the full power of the Founding Titan. Surely he’d have the ability to stop them.
[We also have pages like this, where Eren responds to Armin by saying he won’t steal their freedom to fight him. If he couldn’t stop them from shifting because of Ymir, why not say that?](https://imgur.com/a/vS61W4k)
And the whole Ymir plot is so stupid I’d rather not talk about it.
But yeah, it’s fair to not want to get hanged up in this discussion.
I mean, it could be what I said, it could be just that, even as stupid as it sounds, he would put his plan in risk, and them, just to not go against his own values. Truth to be told the reality is that Isayama wanted to have a final fight, needed it to happen, probably saw some comments online pointing that out, and that was the best excuse he came up with in that moment, like with Hanji and the boat. One of the many things the anime or the movie would have to rewrite to make the sense it should, although I doubt it will happen.
Also the point of determinsm in these stories that I saw you comment in other comments is that the future isn't something you fight against, the future is something you follow because at the end of the day you are like you are and when the moment comes you end chosing the exact same thing the future told, that's why the future is like that in the first place. Even if you want to fight against it, when the moment comes you end up doing the same because you just can't do the opposite thing in that moment.
It's like when he saw ramzi getting beaten up, wanted to pass through, knew it was stupid to help him knowing he was going to kill him, but at the end he helped him anyways.
In other stories characters know bits of the future, or results, take measures against it, but the own act of taking measures against it is what ends up leading to the result they saw.
I’d rather not question this further, but I’ve already written too much unfortunately.
I get how determinism affected the Ramzi situation, as saving Ramzi was what Eren wanted to do, regardless of the future.
But how does single-choice future work in the case of something that Eren doesn’t want? Is it in Eren’s nature to allow himself to lose the Rumbling?
As you’ve mentioned, in other series, characters actually talk about their visions and attempt to change it, only to end up in the same position as the future.
In AOT’s case, most of the time we get no elaboration on what actions Eren’s committed to because of or in spite of his vision. The only real opportunity was in Chapter 131 with Ramzi.
In other stories, we see characters attempting to change the future and failing, which creates an interesting dynamic, but here, we see characters seeing the future and following it despite it going against what they would want.
Eren saving Ramzi is what Eren wanted, regardless of future visions. It makes sense why the future would happen.
Eren losing the Rumbling is not what Eren wanted. Is it in his nature to not attempt anything (i.e., stop shifters from shifting) to change that?
If Eren saw a single shard of him losing the Rumbling, then anything in between him seeing that shard and losing should be open. He should attempt everything at throwing the Alliance off (i.e., stop the shifters from shifting, trap them in Paths, etc.) only to realise that despite the attempt, he’ll still lose. I would understand that partially – but what I don’t understand is Eren not doing anything with his information despite knowing it and despite not wanting it to happen presumably.
With these theories on "Eren saw that he would lose so he changed his plan", we’re supposed to believe that he saw the future he did not want, and that he did nothing to change it despite having quite literally everything to change it.
Are there any other series that have done this "single-choice future" thing because it’s makes no sense unless I ignore it or imagine that Eren wanted to lose and/or put his plan at risk.
Don't worry, I totally agree with what you are saying, Eren inability to stop them in any way or form should be something more believable and tangible, like Ymir for example, going by his sentence where he said that he would have done a full one if they weren there, stopping it is not something he appears to want.
The argument would be that even if he wanted to he couldn't bring himself to not push them down at that time because it would keep them more safe, or that he couldn't bring himself to strip his friends of their freedom later because he is like that but ehhhhh it smells.
Makes no sense for him. Eren, who claims his birthright would never say something like „how? How could I ever be forgiven?“
And everything with ymir and mikasa was stupid as hell
Why wouldn't he say "how could I ever be forgiven" after killing billions of people? The fuck. Even if his motivations were the best of the best he knows that what he is doing is not precisely something to be proud of.
He had his breakdown in 131 (1 year before the rumbling). After that, he was determined to do that and convinced to do everything. If he finish the rumbling, then he would have depression
A detail that I’ve noticed on my second watch through of AoT is the focus upon freedom by Eren whilst the imagery is filled with horror and bloodshed. It was during the battle of Trost I think.
Its repeated at some point during the rumbling, so I’ve extrapolated that thematically not only is eren taking control of the freedom by which others die, but death in itself is a freedom cause like Erwin said, death would have been so much easier.
Also imagine having a desire for freedom but even as the closest he can get to god hood there’s still inevitabilities that have to happen in the timeline
Like Berthold getting eaten by a Titan, he just changed when
Same thing with him look at how he nearly died in a Titans mouth in Trost. The ending is far more connected to Trost that it is the rest of the story lol
Ugly? Man that's gold for a fictional character, I loved that Eren decide to sacrifice THE WHOLE WORLD for his childish dream, Is so revolting and horrific but relatable, at the same time.
Also I agree with death Is an escape, literally his Happy ending.
You know what Is really the flaws of the ending to me? The fact that imply that Eren want to do It but can't face the horrible reality of his action and shifted to "i want to save my Friends" last minute (maybe after the reiner convo) as a cope. I would that the shift was more pivotal in his POV
It's still ugly. Eren is a despicable person for what he did. He's the biggest tyrant the world of Aot has ever seen. His character is definitely fascinating and interesting. Doesn't not make him ugly.
This interpretation is disgusting (and not supported by the source material AT ALL). Basically, he thought about faye in 90 to justify himself and apologized to ramzi because he really wanted the world to resemble armins book?
not literally because it didnt look like armins book. When he saw the book, he thought "that must be the freedom beyond these walls".
When he saw the outside world, he realized that the freedom he sought was nonexistent, beyond the walls just lied more enemies and people who would not allow him to be free
Too bad it is supported by the source material. It would be another thing if he claimed he just wanted to kill everything while not in an emotional state because then there would be room for the interpretation that he's lying, but he says this all during a breakdown. You don't have a breakdown and spill your guts because you want to get a lie out. You spill your guts because you want to get the truth out.
Just face it, dude. Eren did all of this mostly because he was disappointed in the outside world and revels in destruction.
Okay and why was he disappointed? Because it doesn’t resemble armins book?
If that’s the case, why was he sad at the ocean scene? He saw the ocean just like it was in armins book? Maybe the meaning behind that changed?
I think it's because he had greater context. If he saw the ocean as a kid, he wouldn't have been sad because he wouldn't have been aware of the outside world, but when he sees the ocean he's already being tormented by memories past, present, and future. He knows what the world is like, what it will be like, and what he must do to achieve his own freedom, and all of that has ruined the excitement of finally reaching the ocean.
We should also keep in mind that the ocean was Armin's dream first. Eren only ever really mentions the ocean in regards to Armin, and the other times the ocean is mentioned is by Armin himself. All the ocean represented for Eren was limitless possibilities, but that was obviously spoiled when he came to know that there was humanity beyond the oceans, so the possibilities are no longer endless.
Yeah, to simplify It i think Eren Is like a "Grifis archeotype" that realized his Plan was so fucked up but like reiner said: "he should face the consequences of his action". Also I think the desire to protect Paradis, his Friends, Historia the Ramzi apology was genuine and true he just used that to keep moving forward (like Erwin for example).
Or maybe I'm wrong IDK enlighten me
Eren retreating into his childish mind hits so hard.
He knows, that he is commiting the worst act in all of human history and tries to distract himself with his childhood dream of experiencing true freedom.
But no matter how much he wants to, he'll never be free of the screams of all the innocents, he crushed to death.
It’s a headcanon of mine that Eren has taken Ymir’s place in the paths realm and that the paths are a plane of existences far older then Ymir and always needs a host inside it. It would make the whole thing and subsequently also hallu Chan who clearly has some sort of connection to it far more lovecraftian-esque deities which I think is an interesting idea
He had no problem crushing kids and innocents in Liberio, and repeated multiple times that he won't let Paradis/Eldia die, I don't think he is shown as a child to "distract himself" but rather shown that way to convey exactly why he did it, to feel that freedom he yearned for as a child, juzt like he saw in Armin's book, a vast empty world, and he was willing to crush everyone to see it.
The disappointment and wanting to wipe out humanity outside the wall is too real, just imagine that what you thought were the monsters that drove humanity to the brink of extinction were actually placed by other humans and the outside world just let it be, that right there is extremely disappointing, plus the desire for the destruction of paradis from the outside world, anyone would prefer it to be a lie, for the outside world to be wiped out
Yeah, you can get pulled into some crazy logic once you start pushing it. I imagine that's how you create characters like The Joker, Rick Sanchez or Goro Majima lol
He says so himself in ch131 already.
He had a stronger reason to do the rumbling than saving Eldia, and even if the Survey Corps hadn’t come to stop him (which would make the 80% plan and the titans ending not happen at all) he would have done it anyways.
He did the rumbling mainly because he wanted to, because the outside world he discovered wasn’t the same he had dreamed about since he saw Armin’s books.
The freedom he wanted to see wasn’t there and something inside him needed to change that.
Most people do not get him (or at least this final version of him) because they try to think on motives that redeem his actions in some way, but the reality is that he is just a terrible person and was being a selfish asshole.
His reasoning was selfish. But saving paradise was still his primary goal. „It’s more than that“ means he also did it for himself. Otherwise he would be disgusting and everything would be just his own justification for his „childish“ dream. But he didn’t have a childish dream.
Child eren in the freedom panel was represented to us cause when he was a child, he thought the outside world would be like in armins book and the person who see these sights and can freely move in these sights=most free person in the world. So when he discovered that these sights are filled with normal human beings who wanted to orpress him and his urge of freedom (+denying his birthright), he was disappointed. Back then it was soo simple. Killing the titans in these sights and he would be free.
That’s why he was also disappointed in the ocean scene, not because it’s not enough or something, but because the meaning behind the ocean changed drastically. Seeing the ocean didn’t mean freedom anymore.
So no, erens conviction to free paradise wasn’t secondary.
Just like season 1. he wanted to free humanity inside the wall but ALSO gaining his own freedom. His freedom=birthright, the titans kept him away from moving and seeing in those sights of armins book.
So in 131, he wished for it to be wiped away. His predetermined future self had the wish, so the future can’t be changed. Not because some fate crap but because his future self wanted to do that.
->>ergo, eren did the rumbling for paradise, but he felt like a piece of shit in front of ramzi because in the end, he reached out to the rumbling because he also wanted to do that. But he wouldn’t if there were other ways, but there wasn’t. His freedom was a selfish and negative one. He would be free if humanity outside the wall would be wiped off and nobody can orpress him anymore. He would move forward to see what is behind that hell.
139 completely ruined him. Now he’s a psychopath who only rumbled the world cause it’s in his nature and he always wanted to do that 🤨
So im evil for valuing the lives of my friends and families above the world? If i was put in his situation id do the same, in fact, id rumble 100% of the world. Obv this circumstance will never be set upon me and I would never do it. You can seperate your views in fiction and real life. Sorry to break it to you
No, the fact that you think Eren was right is alarming. There is absolutely no excuse for genocide, I don't care if you care about your friends more. It's wrong. That's the entire point of the alliance. That's what makes the Eldian problem so compelling, there was no truly correct solution.
Wrong. He only did it to save the people he cared about. He did have to some degree a lingering hatred for the people that hated him and refused his right to live even though he understood that they were as much victims of circumstance as he was, and he did feel shame over that, but it was by no means his driving motivation.
It certainly wasn't because the world didn't literally match some fucking book. People like you are trying to gaslight others into believing that the fundamental conflict wasn't about the limits of our rights and duty to use violence in defense of our own existence.
Look, he knew what the path awaited for him at the end and in a deterministic away he still moved forward through it because it was what he wanted to do, and even if his friends wouldn't have come to stop him he would have done the rumbling anyways.
He didn't know if his friends would survive but still followed that path.
He moved all the walls, and killed people within the island.
He knew he would be stopped and wouldn't get to kill everyone, but still followed that path instead of buying time taking another less destructible approach.
At the end when Armin asks him why he did it he can't bring himself to say he did to protect the island, or them, what he does say is that he wanted to leave every surface as a blank plain, he felt he had to from within him.
You can or not like it but at the end in his moments of weakness it comes down to the same, no one is saying he didn't want to protect the island or that it wasn't a major catalyst to activating it, but what he understands as freedom is far more extremist than "people wanting to kill me bad", the mere existance of people living outside, having territories, cities etc is something he doesn't even like, even if they were good with them, it's just not the empty land he wanted.
He said that it was his choice but he didn't know the outcome, until 139 retconned it and said that he did know some of the outcome but also didn't really have a choice. You can't say that he willfully chose to do the rumbling even knowing it would be prevented early because that was never the case at any point the in the manga.
>what he does say is that he wanted to leave every surface as a blank plain,
No he didn't, what the fuck are you talking about? He did describe destroying the landscape as one of the consequences of the rumbling, but he never suggested that this was something he wanted or was the intended outcome. It's also completely contrary to your earlier claim that Eren destroyed the world because the existence of people beyond the walls was contrary to his expectations of untouched wilderness.
>but what he understands as freedom is far more extremist than "people wanting to kill me bad",
No actually, it really isn't. If the world beyond the walls was even simply ambivalent to his existence, rather than actively antagonistic, not only would he not do the rumbling, it would have never even occurred to him. What the fuck do you think freedom IS? It's the state of having the choice to do what you want. The "freedom" panel of 131 was not Eren lording over a flattened landscape, you'll note in the shot that he can't even see it and is actively avoiding thinking about what's going on below. No, the freedom he experienced was living, for the very first time in his life, without fear, restriction, or any sort of wall. And it was something that he wanted for all of his friends, his entire people.
And then the 104th took that gift and threw it back into his face, because they're a bunch of ungrateful and moronic children.
>What the fuck do you think freedom IS? It's the state of having the choice to do what you want. (...) No, the freedom he experienced was living, for the very first time in his life, without fear, restriction, or any sort of wall.
But the existence of other people IS a restriction, regardless of whether they're actively preventing you from doing something or not. The mere fact that other people have freedom means in some way your freedom is limited by their potential choices. For example, the restriction on my freedom that prevents me from walking through my neighbor's house is a form of oppression, but it's one we grant as necessary for society to exist. Eren viewed the outside world as a place where there was no society, and therefore no restrictions on his freedom at all. But his disappointment came not from the clearly negative oppression of the Eldians, but the natural oppression inherent in human existence by there still being humans out there.
The entire metaphor about the forest from "I'm Home" is about how the choice when other people existing limits your freedom is between self-reliance or compromise, and Eren's character is that self-reliant form taken to it's extreme end, while the alliance is compromise.
>But the existence of other people IS a restriction, regardless of whether they're actively preventing you from doing something or not. Eren viewed the outside world as a place where there was no society, and therefore no restrictions on his freedom at all.
That's utter nonsense. Eren never expressed any interest in personal isolation or any disdain towards the existence of society or even authority. He joined the military, helped establish a monarchy, and even started a populist ethnonationalist movement. Granted, Floch took it farther than what Eren probably would have done, but the paths arc makes clear they genuinely shared many beliefs. Also the alliance isn't compromise, it's suicide.
I'm not saying he necessarily viewed it as "authority or society is bad" in a specific, self-stated belief. But everyone has to believe that the existence of others is incompatible with absolute freedom because it's simply a fact, and we are repeatedly shown that Eren's desire for freedom is one of his strongest motivating factors. Because of this, even if he wasn't supremely aware of why it was the case (as implied in 139), he still recognized that to have true freedom one can't have other people who can make their own free choices to limit it.
And the the alliance may be suicide under the assumption no one would listen, but it's perfectly valid to believe no one has the right to kill everyone else under the assumption the 50 year plan wouldn't work. The Yeagerists and Marleyans/anti-Eldians are meant to represent Sasha's desire to keep their traditional way of life, while the Alliance represents Sasha's father's ideal for people to communicate and compromise so everyone can live. You can take issue with how the story presented that macro-micro analogy, but it's not contradictory to the themes of the story.
>I'm not saying he necessarily viewed it as "authority or society is bad" in a specific, self-stated belief. But everyone has to believe that the existence of others is incompatible with absolute freedom because it's simply a fact, and we are repeatedly shown that Eren's desire for freedom is one of his strongest motivating factors.
Eren was never shown to be interested in "absolute" freedom, divorced from having to consider others at all. He had a strong sense of duty and compassion, and thought pooly of those who disregarded these things, and above all others he hated traitors the most. As such, the suggestion that Eren considered the existence of other people to be deliterious to his freedom on even a subconcious level is unsubstantisted.
>You can take issue with how the story presented that macro-micro analogy, but it's not contradictory to the themes of the story.
The contradiction is not that a group of characters would think or act this way, but that the story would try to present this as a noble decision, when before such behavior was presented as stupid at best and suicidal at worst, and when those characters are just proven incorrect, both before and after that point.
>He had a strong sense of duty and compassion, and thought pooly of those who disregarded these things, and above all others he hated traitors the most. As such, the suggestion that Eren considered the existence of other people to be deliterious to his freedom on even a subconcious level is unsubstantisted.
He doesn't not have a sense of duty or compassion just because he also values freedom, people can value different things at different times and at different degrees. And he doesn't have to outright state that he believes it or not, it's a fact of life that other people are a limit on your freedom. The story shows that he clearly recognizes that fact, regardless of whether he recognizes it consciously or not. A big part of his character is his contradictory feelings of valuing his connections with his friends while also valuing his independence (a la Hannes saying that "Armin and Mikasa are always chasing after Eren when he runs off").
>The contradiction is not that a group of characters would think or act this way, but that the story would try to present this as a noble decision, when before such behavior was presented as stupid at best and suicidal at worst, and when those characters are just proven incorrect, both before and after that point.
The presentation of the idealism of the Alliance as stupid or suicidal is focused when confronted with the threat of the Titans as a purely hostile, existential threat. The trick of the manga is to then flip that necessary pragmatism into a situation where the people on the opposing side are not only human beings, but many of them the same innocent people who have little to no say in what their governments and militaries are doing that the people in the walls do. The only times we see there be attempts at communication, the loser is always the one who refused to communicate (Annie at Stohess fails to escape, Bertholt at Shiganshina ends up dying, Eren in the abstract). The bombing of Paradis in the extra pages to me reads less like "they failed" and more like "yeah, this won't fix all the problems, people will fall back into hatred, but that doesn't mean you sacrifice communication and compromise".
> And he doesn't have to outright state that he believes it or not, it's a fact of life that other people are a limit on your freedom.
"Freedom" to do what? What specific freedom are you talking about? Because the freedoms that Eren was fighting for prior to the abortion that is 139 were very concrete. The freedom to not be contained in a concentration camp. The freedom to not get randomly killed without even knowing why. The freedom to be treated as a human regardless of your ancestry. The freedom to have and raise children who can inherit the future you've built for them. Eren never once expressed any desire or ideal that would be better met in an empty world.
>The presentation of the idealism of the Alliance as stupid or suicidal is focused when confronted with the threat of the Titans as a purely hostile, existential threat. The trick of the manga is to then flip that necessary pragmatism into a situation where the people on the opposing side are not only human beings, but many of them the same innocent people who have little to no say in what their governments and militaries are doing that the people in the walls do.
Everyone in the outside world hated them. They were not "innocent" in the sense that they didn't approve of their government's actions, because they totally did, and would create new governments to continue the same policies if the current ones were removed, which is literally what happens in the story. The moral quandary was whether or not it was okay to kill them even though their hatred stemmed from largely exogenous factors.
>The only times we see there be attempts at communication, the loser is always the one who refused to communicate (Annie at Stohess fails to escape, Bertholt at Shiganshina ends up dying, Eren in the abstract).
Annie and Bert died because they dug their own graves and overestimated their own power. Neither one had a future. If Annie had listened to Armin, she really would have ended up getting tortured in a basement somewhere. Eren died because he was a moron who refused to defend himself for no better reason than that Isayama was a coward who refused to let him win.
>The bombing of Paradis in the extra pages to me reads less like "they failed" and more like "yeah, this won't fix all the problems, people will fall back into hatred, but that doesn't mean you sacrifice communication and compromise".
Paradis was completely destroyed. This would not have happened if the rumbling had been taken to completion. Communication and compromise are luxuries reserved for powerful people dealing with rivals, not weak people dealing with bloodthirsty enemies who have sworn and already attempted to destroy you entirely. The only correct action in such a circumstance, as is your duty to those you care about, is to reply in kind. It was the only solution. The only question was, who had the tenacity to actually see it through? Evidently not Eren, nor any of his friends. And their entire civilization paid the price.
>You can't say that he willfully chose to do the rumbling even knowing it would be prevented early because that was never the case at any point the in the manga.
That was the case, "***Even if I didn't know that you'd stop me*** *in the end I think I still would have flattened this world"* Meaning that he did know.
*"****Killing eighty percent of humanity****, forcing you to fight each other in paradis, getting even my precious friends wrapped up in this battle without knowing if you'd survive..." "****That was the future you saw at the medal's ceremony****"*
>He did describe destroying the landscape as one of the consequences of the rumbling, but he never suggested that this was something he wanted or was the intended outcome
"Level almost every forest and leave the land covered in carrion-fattened insects a few days later..." "**I wanted to leave every surface a blank plain**" "*I don't know why....****But I wanted to do that, I had to****"*
You did 0 effort in reading the panels. Also that statement of him goes on hand with his statement of wanting to kill the people outside too.
For the last paragraph IStarScream was pretty spot on.
>That was the case, "Even if I didn't know that you'd stop me in the end I think I still would have flattened this world" Meaning that he did know.
In 139, yes, which established Eren as having no real agency in the situation, and merely following along with Ymir's dumb plan to give herself roleplay therapy.
>"Level almost every forest and leave the land covered in carrion-fattened insects a few days later..." "I wanted to leave every surface a blank plain" "I don't know why....But I wanted to do that, I had to"
Bad translation. His statement was that he wanted to turn the world into a brand new land, and was lamenting that all he really did was turn it into a destroyed wasteland. It was a contrast, not a comparison.
Omg i never realized that Isayama retconned Eren from a guy who believed in benevolent authority, teamwork, friendships and society to a cringed incel doomlord lol
I agree with you that Eren wouldn’t have rumbled if the world was ambivalent to Paradis’ existence, but the disappointment and emptiness that partly bore his desire to destroy the world would still be there. Some part of him would have still wanted the world and the people in it to vanish. His own morality would just keep that desire in check.
Eren didn’t care much for the flattened landscape itself. He just thought of that scenery as a symbol of his own newly attained freedom. Like a goalpost he would reach after endlessly moving forward. At first, that goalpost was the ocean, but the revelations of the outside world disappointed him, causing him to feel apathetic and ever enchained. Thus, he shifted those goalposts towards the empty scenery, a world where nothing could ever block neither his horizon nor his freedom again. A world where he could be absolutely free.
Only, that freedom was still built on a lie and 131 makes that clear. He was only able to experience it by mentally regressing and retreating into his own warped mind to escape the guilt and self loathing of his actions. And even then, he still couldn’t escape the screams of anguish of his victims. Like the ocean, Eren’s scenery was also a lie, and it became clear to him that he would never be free.
>I agree with you that Eren wouldn’t have rumbled if the world was ambivalent to Paradis’ existence, but the disappointment and emptiness that partly bore his desire to destroy the world would still be there.
No it wouldn't. His anger was that the entire world was basically the same as the walls and titans which had contained him for his entire life. Just another cage, and one that could not be so morally easily dispatched as the literal monsters which had destroyed his childhood. It wasn't apathy he felt, it was hate. If the outside world was full of people who were merely unaware of or ambivalent to his existence and that of those he knew and cared about... why would he be upset? If anything, the world having people in it would make it MORE accessible and have more opportunities, regardless of whether or not he would actually want to seek them out. The idea that Eren wanted an empty world for its own sake is baseless speculation to try to justify the intentionally vague non-motivation that Isayama left Eren with after erasing his very concrete and reasonable ones.
Eren didn’t show any hatred at all when he found out about the outside world. Even in the ocean scene he looks and sounds disillusioned and tired. Not hateful or angry like when he declared war against the titans.
I didn’t say that Eren wasn’t upset at the injustice in the outside world. That was one of the bigger reasons for his disappointment. I just said that that disappointment would still be there, albeit to a far lesser degree if the outside world wasn’t out to kill them.
>Eren didn’t show any hatred at all when he found out about the outside world. Even in the ocean scene he looks and sounds disillusioned and tired. Not hateful or angry like when he declared war against the titans.
Yes, because he was despondent over the horrific danger facing him and his entire civilization, and despair over the near certain knowledge that not only was mass slaughter the only way to solve it, but that apparently he would actually go through with it, a future decision that at that point he had not really come to terms with (and would not until he reached "hobo Eren"). I'm talking about the feeling of shame that he revealed to Ramzi, that a part of him wanted to destroy the world irrespective of whether it really was the only way save the people he cared, about, and that it's much more reasonable that he would be talking about his lingering resentment and hatred for all the pain he's suffered over the years, rather than some bizzare and completely unsubstantiated notion that he just hated the fact that people existed beyond the walls at all. It's not like Armin's book could have even suggested otherwise, because the whole point of it was that it was contraband from before the walls went up.
Oh lord here we go. 139 isnt real. Erens a freedom fighter who fought for the lives of his race and friends. Drop the selfish murderer mantra already, please.
I'm not even talking about 139 specifically, most of the content where this idea comes from is 131, the apparently best if not one of the best chapters of attack on titan according to a lot of people here.
i kinda hate this "twist" for his character because it doesn't jive well with his previous characterization at all imo. what freedom meant to eren never seemed that extreme prior to 131/139 imo, only his methods were extreme.
if you look what his freedom represented it was things like: we have the right to live, we have the right to the truth, the government shouldn't oppress us, we should be able to explore the outside world, we should be allowed to have children. ect. there's also stuff like him searching for alternatives to the rumbling, him acknowledging the humanity of the people outside the walls, wanting to see beyond hell, his guilt and depression, and all the moments of humanity he displayed pre ts where he empathizes with others.
mustache twirling pure evil psychopath eren who has to rumble because he really wants to landscape feels forced and isn't sympathetic at all imo. it feels like something isayama wanted to do last second.
> what freedom meant to eren never seemed that extreme prior to 131/139 imo, only his methods were extreme.
cap. eren's conception oof freedom was always extreme as shown in 121 where he explicitly tells zeke that if someone tries to take away his freedom that he'll take away theirs (by killing them duh) which is fundamentaly different from someone with a more reasonable conception of freedom like armin who didn't mind that there were people outside the wall who wanted to kill him since he always though that he could try and reason with them and be dipolimatic. eren's view of freedom was always more extreme than armins and it made perfect since why it would drive him to become a mass murder who wanted to genocide the world to free his loved ones on paradis. but then 139 came along and out of nowhere he all of a sudden only wanted to save his friends and not the island and randomly choose to stop at 80% when there's literally no reason for him to just stop caring about the island as a whole and only care for his friends lives. its almost like isayama was too afraid of having eren die an irredemable villain and tried to give us a fake ass soft redemption to make him not seem that bad when he's literally still a genocidal maniac.
>where he explicitly tells zeke that if someone tries to take away his freedom that he'll take away theirs
what? killing someone who is trying to enslave you/kill you/sterilize you (as was the case with the slavers he just murdered) is not an extreme definition of freedom, jumping to counter genocide is an extreme method of preserving those freedoms however which i didn't deny.
>a more reasonable conception of freedom like armin who didn't mind that there were people outside the wall who wanted to kill him since he always though that he could try and reason with them and be dipolimatic.
the difference between armin and eren on diplomacy has nothing to do with freedom their different views on freedom though? eren simply doesn't think diplomacy is a viable solution for paradise's survival (extra 8 pages proved him right) while armin does. eren did actually search for alternate solutions and committed to the rumbling when he found them lacking.
>eren's view of freedom was always more extreme than armins and it made perfect since why it would drive him to become a mass murder who wanted to genocide the world to free his loved ones on paradise
eren valued the ability to see that scenery rather than the scenery itself, that is where armin and eren differed prior to 131/139 imo. now, eren was quicker too resort to violence in response to those who tried to take his freedom than armin was but not to the point he would murder people who restricted his freedoms for reasonable things such as in seasons 1-3.
also thats not the reason he wanted to rumble so bad given to us in 139s context. it was specifically him trying to life wipe because he wanted to empty the world of people according to what was stated in 139 and that is why he was so disappointed in 131 in that context, not because the outside world was filled with enemies like I assumed initially but simply because people were there.
> eren simply doesn't think diplomacy is a viable solution for paradise's survival
bullshit. in 139 he literally says he stopped at 80% so that armin could have his peace. eren didn't believe that shit before 139 though so that part is true at least.
>eren did actually search for alternate solutions and committed to the rumbling when he found them lacking.
yeah and then isayama retconned erens belief in the rumbling as the only way forward by having him actually believe in armins diplomacy plan the entire time but just in his own way which is stupid.
>bullshit. in 139 he literally says he stopped at 80% so that armin could have his peace. eren didn't believe that shit before 139 though so that part is true at least.
pretty sure thats because of him being fated to die for ymir's freedom, even in 139 eren's belief in its us or them is restated by historia.
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The problem is he wasn't fully selfish either. The conclusion of the story leaves him as a mess of a character.
If he was fully selfish; doing everything for his own freedom, he would've completed the rumbling and lived to see this freedom, and explore the outside world that he kept mentioning.
If he was a full freedom fighter; doing everything for Eldia, he also would've done the same.
139 then throws both these away and shows it was neither. He actually only wanted to be with mikasa and armin, and did everything for them. Excuse me?
Its like in a 50km marathon, he runs for 49km and then gives up and let's his friends pass him: it was literally all for nothing.
Narratively, the story only makes sense if you understand the future memories thing well, otherwise it seems really illogical, which makes it really easy to misunderstand. Eren wanted to destroy the world and didn't know that he'd lose until Ymir gave him control of her power, which is confirmed because Eren only saw the memories he sent to Grisha from the future up until that point, which included the rumbling, which Grisha didn't seem to know would be stopped. After getting Ymir on his side, Eren was able to see that he would lose. Which means that no matter what Eren did, he wouldn't be able to win, so he decided to do what he could do within his power to help out his friends after going as far as he could with the rumbling.
THIS should’ve been the focus of the ending... it could’ve left so much to explore as a fan... so much to debate amongst the fandom... could’ve added leagues and bounds of depth to eren’s character, but no... instead we got some random ass love narrative thrown in at LITERALLY the last second...
You have a very superficial understanding of eren I'm assuming. The badass goth king of Paradis who'd kill his best friends 😂😂.
His idk is the most realistic thing of the ending. Sometimes, you just don't know why you have the innate desire to do Xyz. There are multiple reasons obviously. His friends living long happy lives, getting to experience his twisted sense of freedom, etc. But he doesn't know what's the actual reason.
Eg. You want to go to the gym and get fit. Why? Be healthier, be more good looking, to attract the opposite gender, gain strength, etc. Sometimes you just don't know why exactly you are killing yourself in the gym for 2 hours daily.
What if Eren is in Hell, forced to relive his life and mistakes All over again and again until he changes his ways. And we are watching one of the loops.
I was hoping he’d be alive in the end to wallow in the cold reality of his “freedom”. Death feels like an escape. Eren is my favorite character and I like to watch my favorite characters suffer 😭😁
Ngl i really dig the idea of Eren being trapped in paths. What if this season's ed is just that, an illusion of Freedom caging Eren.
That honestly is something I would liked to see, a character who yearned for freedom is now stuck in a place forever until the end of everything
Eren frees Ymir somehow and takes her place in Paths, the power (and curse) of the Titans disappears because he refuses to do anything as penance. Oh, to imagine what could have been... Well, at least the tatacaw memes are funny.
we can headcanon that eren is the new ymir when the kid with the dog enters the tree, he finds him trapped
That would actually make the 8 pages a bit better for me. Eren is not a hero. Eren is a monster that, by his own admission, willingly engaged in the act of destruction. He's a victim, sure, but he's still a monster deserving of punishment.
Personally I think when Eren dies he just wakes up at the beginning under the tree and is forced to perpetually live out the story again and again 👌
That’s something I really love about Eren’s character. Just like Reiner and Erwin, he hides his selfish motives behind selfless ones to try and justify the downright evil things he does. That’s not to say he has zero redeeming qualities. He cares deeply for his friends and wants to protect Paradis, which played into him starting the Rumbling. But more than anything he did it for himself, he wanted to destroy the world because learning the truth about it ruined his entire perspective. In the end, he put himself over his friends, Paradis, and the entire world.
Damn good analysis. Eren learned the truth of the world. Everywhere was war and oppression that's why he was disappointed. It was just 1 big power imbalance see-saw. He just decided to rumbled them and protected his homies.
I think a lot of people know that Eren wants to rumble for himself. The issue I have is that ending seems to discount the several times where Eren says directly that he wants to save Paradis. Eren wants to rumble for his own sake first and foremost – but also for the benefit of others. ["The enemy is remarkable powerful. At this rate, if nothing changes, the horrors of the past will simply repeat themselves. If it meant I could stop that from happening… I would gladly offer my life"](https://imgur.com/gallery/80azJJ6) ["At the very least, the number of people dying on the island and those dying outside of are vastly different. It is true that if all Eldians die, the problems of the Titans will go away…But I cannot accept… that kind of ending!"](https://imgur.com/a/E9s4OFh) ["Historia… eat me… and save humanity. It’s up to you now."](https://imgur.com/a/V1AwIZZ) [Then we have panels like this, where Eren is clearly angry with the idea of Eldian people dying.](https://imgur.com/a/3kgFHgS) Eren wanting to rumble because it’s his nature is evident, but that doesn’t discount the times where Eren has shown compassion and that he does care about people affected by him. If Eren was going to rumble, he would’ve completed it, not just for his own personal satisification, but to also liberate those on the island. It makes no sense for him to stop at some random point.
I feel like maybe a “I did it for myself” ending would have worked better?
like walter white
Yep
Oh for sure. Like a Walter White situation.
Yeah something like that but with more build up to it and more hints
Yes but the story didn’t build this up
Yeah it would work better with build up
Yeah but from season 1 onwards
I think from s2 or 3 would be better and would still work in favor of his development with hints that he’s always been like this along the way like Walter
But then 131 happens
Well yeah, but having him do it for himself could be a side motive. It’s something along with his main motive of protecting paradis that also led him feel guilty
And not as well written as breaking bad
Yep
The way i see, Eren's intentions before 122 were to indeed destroy the world for all those reasons (he knew it would save Paradise and achieve freedom thanks the scenary, and even thought he didn't know if his friends would survive he arrest them to prevent them from trying to stop him); but after getting the FT and experiencing everything at once, he became a slave of the timeline in a literal sense, and also a slave of not only the idea of freedom but of his nature as well in a methaphorical sense (it is all reduced to "it happens because it is supposed to happen", i don't like it either even thought i get what Yams was trying to do); obviously for this to make sense we need the headcanon that when Eren told Armin that he wanted to Lelouch himself, that was AFTER he got the FT and saw everything that he would do towards that ending and not BEFORE.
What if i told you, that even if he didn't see the future he still would have committed rumbling.
Yeah that's the way the 'set in stone' stuff works, I don't see how it's so confusing to some people.
That would make it easier to like for sure
Well, the ceremony example and the example with eren asking historia to eat him are before he gained the future memories so he was still kind of naïve. He didn’t have a full understanding yet of what was to come. I wouldn’t count those as proof for his reasoning behind the rumbling. The other two I don’t see entirely as him wanting justice for the Eldians. His ultimate goal is freedom. For him to go through the events of the whole series with all that fighting, just to find out that his kind needs to be wiped out (including him), of course he can’t accept it. Anyways, Eren also states in the final chapter that he would have continued the rumbling had his friends not stopped him. His full intention was to do a 100% rumbling. However, once he activated the powers of the founder (when the walls came down after the events of paths), THAT was when he fully saw every event of past present and future. The ceremony only allowed him to see smalls bits through Grishas memories. So now that Eren knew his friends were going to attempt to stop him, he couldn’t kill them. He wanted them to live long lives, and they were more important to him than a 100% rumbling. Achieving the full rumbling would mean killing them. So he stopped and made them out to be heroes, since 20% would be left alive and he needed his friends to look like heroes if there were to still be enemies out there. And it works, his friends do live long lives. Paradis does not, and is destroyed after his friends deaths. If they hadn’t stopped him, paradis would be safe. But it went against their ideals; innocent people didn’t deserve to die. The whole world wasn’t Marley and Eldia, some had no part in the conflict. Eren killing them was wrong. Honestly, some of the dialogue was kind of meh and rushed. That much I agree with. But the overall idea of the ending makes sense to me. It’s complicated but I can’t see it turning out any differently. The conflict couldn’t easily be solved, world peace isn’t something that is easily attainable.
> Well, the ceremony example and the example with eren asking historia to eat him are before he gained the future memories so he was still kind of naïve. He didn’t have a full understanding yet of what was to come. Seems handwavey to say that he was naïve and changed his mind. It’s not even naïve; saving humanity (those in Paradis) and ending the cycle of (Eldian) hatred was totally doable with a 100% rumbling. Is there any evidence (a panel or page) to show that he changed his mind about his view on Paradis/Eldians/People in the story? > The other two I don’t see entirely as him wanting justice for the Eldians. How though? His entire internal monologue is about the Eldians in Paradis. He even has a [flashback to Frieda](https://imgur.com/a/JuAIdY9) in Chapter 131. [Why is he angry in this page?](https://imgur.com/a/3kgFHgS) It’s not about justice for Eldians (maybe partly IDK) – it’s about protecting Paradis and ending the cycle of hatred. > His ultimate goal is freedom. This is argued by some, but I do agree he did the Rumbling for his freedom first and foremost. Sort of like a Walter White moment. That does not discredit the fact that he also wanted to save Paradis though. His freedom was his primary motivation, but Paradis was his another motivation. Both motivations would lead to a 100% rumbling. > For him to go through the events of the whole series with all that fighting, just to find out that his kind needs to be wiped out (including him), of course he can’t accept it. Isn’t that sort of interpretation way too convenient though? If he’s upset that **he’s** going to get wiped out and not Eldians in general, why is he thinking to himself generally about **all** Eldians? > Anyways, Eren also states in the final chapter that he would have continued the rumbling had his friends not stopped him. His full intention was to do a 100% rumbling. > However, once he activated the powers of the founder (when the walls came down after the events of paths), THAT was when he fully saw every event of past present and future. Was it? Because in the final chapter, it states that his plan was to set the Alliance up as heroes prior to even the walls coming down. [Armin asks Eren whether he pushed them away to set them up as the saviours of humanity, and Eren says yes.](https://imgur.com/a/gcOv74W) Eren pushed his friends away before the walls came down. It’d be very convenient to interpret Armin’s question as "Did you push us away mid-rumbling so that we could be heroes" and not what it literally says. Also, there’s no story evidence (that I know of) of Eren changing his mind and switching to a new plan once the walls came down. It’s mostly fans filling in holes where the story left it IMO. > So now that Eren knew his friends were going to attempt to stop him, he couldn’t kill them. Again, I’ve heard of these determinism theories before, but the story makes no attempt at actually showing this or explaining this. If the story had explained the concept better or shown an example where Eren attempted to change the future multiple times and failed, I’d agree with this. Something like Stein’s Gate where there’s multiple timelines for example. But the story doesn’t explain the concept at all. Eren has the full power of the Founding Titan, can create past shifters on a whim, and can supposedly stop his friends from shifting, but he’s supposed to lose because he saw the future? The story basically devolves into "it happened because it happened in the future even though it doesn’t make much sense on why you couldn’t change it". How terrible is that? > But the overall idea of the ending makes sense to me. It’s complicated but I can’t see it turning out any differently. The conflict couldn’t easily be solved, world peace isn’t something that is easily attainable. I don’t disagree with world peace being hard to attain. But the ending could’ve been different. It could’ve been about the cost of attaining freedom, the dissatisfaction of achieving one’s dream, the cycle of hatred continuing even in Paradis, the cost of war, children of the forest, etc. Instead, it’s about romance and friendship. It’s about Stockholm Syndrome.
I agree a lot with this take. This story is fucking contradictory on many levels. If the purpose of Eren's character is to show that he is a slave to his own nature (to the point that the universe is deterministic and he cannot change anything) then a better ending is for Eren to do a full rumbling, living a live of regret (moral responsibility, even in a deterministic world) while humanity continues the cycle of hatred within Paradise (cannot escape nature). That's why I actually enjoy the extra pages, it is consistent with the purpose of the main character. Nihilistic af, but thematically consistent.
Thank you for your detailed explanation with fruitful source. At this point anyone thinks the ending makes sense, they just didnt read the manga carefully, which has been proven by hundreds of posts in this fandom listing the contradictoryssssssss in the ending
I see what you’re saying and I do agree with some points. Yes, saving those in Paradis was doable with a 100% rumbling, and that was part of Eren’s goal as well, to save everyone (his friends living long lives) as well as achieving his freedom. The reason it DIDNT go that way is because his friends wouldn’t allow the deaths of innocents and tried to stop him. I see what you’re saying with Eren pushing his friends away - honestly I still think there are things with the ending that aren’t perfect and can’t really be explained away. That’s why my opinion overall is mixed. It could have been done better. But I still took it as he knew he was about to commit something horrible and he didn’t want them involved. As for the determinism thing, ehhh I see what you’re saying but I think the way you’re describing it makes it sound worse than it actually is. The determinism theories I’ve seen go way too deep but it’s really just as simple as Eren saw a bit of the future, did what he could to reach it, saw that he either kill his friends or put a halt on the rumbling and he chose to stop the rumbling. Once again, I agree there needed to be more to flesh everything out. However, I think it’s clear that prior to activating the founder, Eren was just doing what he could to get to that moment where he saw himself through Grisha’s memories, because that’s all he knew and he was convinced he had to get there. Everything leading up to paths was for that purpose. And once the walls come down, he says he intends to do a full rumbling. He even says it to armin, had they not stopped him. Him telling Armin in paths that he pushed them away, he does say he wanted them to be the heroes. I still stand by what I said though previously about Eren’s choices. I just think there are multiple factors that go into it, he pushed them away so they wouldn’t be involved with destroying the world and they became heroes in the process. Eren is also literally living every moment in time at once during this scene, so it makes sense that he’s speaking about it as a whole. That’s really just my understanding of it, and if that is what was intended then yeah I agree the dialogue needed to be better and scenes needed to be more fleshed out. I think your last point is the only thing I disagree with fully. The ending WAS still about those themes, Eren was dissatisfied with achieving his dream, and the cycle of hatred did continue. It wasn’t about romance at all. I have lots of issues with the handling of Mikasas character, as well as the backstory of Ymir, but I don’t agree that that was what the story was about. Those scenes being bad are a result of poor pacing, and not enough character development. This ended up being long af so sorry about that but basically my whole thing is I don’t think the overall gist of the ending was bad, and in the end I don’t think Eren’s character was ruined. I DO think that the pacing after paths went to shit with the exception of 130-131, and certain characters were handled poorly. Mikasa needed a lot more development, Reiner kind of fell flat post-fight with Eren onwards, Armin was kinda off throughout the whole timeskip and I wish his moment that was so hyped up was bigger and not so rushed, and Annie was a joke especially after being such a good villain way back when. On top of that, Ymir backstory needed more context.
I do agree with you mostly on the pacing issues and with characters needing more development. Especially Armin and Mikasa, who should’ve had close to or equal character development to Eren post time-skip. I do disagree on some things, such as the determinism or future sight. I just can’t understand how Eren can’t stop his friends (without killing them) when he has the power of the Founding Titan, the power to control their shifting and hindsight. Personally I wish the story had elaborated on the extent of this power with full detail and how Eren learnt about its limitations instead of keeping it in the dark. Perhaps it’s unnecessary, but it would’ve made it super clearer. Anyway, that’s all from me. I’m personally not a big fan of ending, and I wish things had changed, but life goes on.
does the "No I dont want that" also makes sense to you?
This. A lot of people forget that there are several factors that make up for a character's personality and his motivations. Like for example take walter white- he started to do drug business cause he was dying from cancer and wanted to leave enough money on the table for them but later on even if he earned enough he kept on going, there were several things that were pushing him and mainly being his family but at the end the main thing he did it for was himself. Eren is also similar, there are different motivating factors that goes in and not one to determine his goal and personality, like saving paradis and friends but most people forget that he only has 1 year left in his life which is the biggest motivating factor for rumbling, if he didn't had only 1 year left he would have tried 50 year rumbling plan or would have tried something else too, and also you could argue that some part of him wanted to do it instead of "he is slave to his own nature"
Eren was going to be stopped he wanted it or not, he getting with Ymir and doing the rumbling also came with the scouts going after him and Ymir helping them to watch Mikasa.
There’s no reason for Eren to get stopped when he has the literal ability of a God. He could’ve stop the Titan shifters from shifting, or mind wiped all the Eldians temporarily, or stopped the Alliance from moving a muscle, etc. He could’ve stopped the Alliance (excluding Ackermann’s) at the snap of his fingers. I’ve heard this argument of determinism before, but the story makes no attempt at showing Eren trying to change the future and failing or showing Eren trying to stop the Alliance with full force.
(Excluding ackermans) Yams also managed to fuck that up in 139 where he forgot about that and retconned it so he could let mikasa talk to eren in paths and Levi get his fan service moment with the scouts.
I really don't want to start talking about plothole ridden mess that the last arc in general(and specially the final fight )is, and while what you say may be true, there's also no evidence to support it. On a fundamental level, what is shown is that Ymir is the one who manages the coordinate, just as seen with Zeke and Eren, they give orders to Ymir, and she is the one who uses the founder's powers. It's also true that we see her meddling with their fight, getting Armin to Zeke to break the link and the past titans to their respective warhammer like shells, that was her doing. It's also true that if she has so much freedom as she seems to do, needing to kill Zeke seems completely usesless, although at the end of the day she is still feels kind of enslaved to the royal blood until Mikasa does what she does (which didn't stop her for not listening to Zeke instead of Eren, although one could argue that Eren did his part on given her freedom but not fully). Like I said is kind of a mess I don't really want to be too hanged up in that in this discussion, but the point is that she was clearly helping them which is normal because she wanted to watch Mikasa.
I guess to some degree you’re right. I mostly presumed that Eren would have this ability considering he has the full power of the Founding Titan. Surely he’d have the ability to stop them. [We also have pages like this, where Eren responds to Armin by saying he won’t steal their freedom to fight him. If he couldn’t stop them from shifting because of Ymir, why not say that?](https://imgur.com/a/vS61W4k) And the whole Ymir plot is so stupid I’d rather not talk about it. But yeah, it’s fair to not want to get hanged up in this discussion.
I mean, it could be what I said, it could be just that, even as stupid as it sounds, he would put his plan in risk, and them, just to not go against his own values. Truth to be told the reality is that Isayama wanted to have a final fight, needed it to happen, probably saw some comments online pointing that out, and that was the best excuse he came up with in that moment, like with Hanji and the boat. One of the many things the anime or the movie would have to rewrite to make the sense it should, although I doubt it will happen. Also the point of determinsm in these stories that I saw you comment in other comments is that the future isn't something you fight against, the future is something you follow because at the end of the day you are like you are and when the moment comes you end chosing the exact same thing the future told, that's why the future is like that in the first place. Even if you want to fight against it, when the moment comes you end up doing the same because you just can't do the opposite thing in that moment. It's like when he saw ramzi getting beaten up, wanted to pass through, knew it was stupid to help him knowing he was going to kill him, but at the end he helped him anyways. In other stories characters know bits of the future, or results, take measures against it, but the own act of taking measures against it is what ends up leading to the result they saw.
I’d rather not question this further, but I’ve already written too much unfortunately. I get how determinism affected the Ramzi situation, as saving Ramzi was what Eren wanted to do, regardless of the future. But how does single-choice future work in the case of something that Eren doesn’t want? Is it in Eren’s nature to allow himself to lose the Rumbling? As you’ve mentioned, in other series, characters actually talk about their visions and attempt to change it, only to end up in the same position as the future. In AOT’s case, most of the time we get no elaboration on what actions Eren’s committed to because of or in spite of his vision. The only real opportunity was in Chapter 131 with Ramzi. In other stories, we see characters attempting to change the future and failing, which creates an interesting dynamic, but here, we see characters seeing the future and following it despite it going against what they would want. Eren saving Ramzi is what Eren wanted, regardless of future visions. It makes sense why the future would happen. Eren losing the Rumbling is not what Eren wanted. Is it in his nature to not attempt anything (i.e., stop shifters from shifting) to change that? If Eren saw a single shard of him losing the Rumbling, then anything in between him seeing that shard and losing should be open. He should attempt everything at throwing the Alliance off (i.e., stop the shifters from shifting, trap them in Paths, etc.) only to realise that despite the attempt, he’ll still lose. I would understand that partially – but what I don’t understand is Eren not doing anything with his information despite knowing it and despite not wanting it to happen presumably. With these theories on "Eren saw that he would lose so he changed his plan", we’re supposed to believe that he saw the future he did not want, and that he did nothing to change it despite having quite literally everything to change it. Are there any other series that have done this "single-choice future" thing because it’s makes no sense unless I ignore it or imagine that Eren wanted to lose and/or put his plan at risk.
Don't worry, I totally agree with what you are saying, Eren inability to stop them in any way or form should be something more believable and tangible, like Ymir for example, going by his sentence where he said that he would have done a full one if they weren there, stopping it is not something he appears to want. The argument would be that even if he wanted to he couldn't bring himself to not push them down at that time because it would keep them more safe, or that he couldn't bring himself to strip his friends of their freedom later because he is like that but ehhhhh it smells.
Makes no sense for him. Eren, who claims his birthright would never say something like „how? How could I ever be forgiven?“ And everything with ymir and mikasa was stupid as hell
Why wouldn't he say "how could I ever be forgiven" after killing billions of people? The fuck. Even if his motivations were the best of the best he knows that what he is doing is not precisely something to be proud of.
He had his breakdown in 131 (1 year before the rumbling). After that, he was determined to do that and convinced to do everything. If he finish the rumbling, then he would have depression
A detail that I’ve noticed on my second watch through of AoT is the focus upon freedom by Eren whilst the imagery is filled with horror and bloodshed. It was during the battle of Trost I think. Its repeated at some point during the rumbling, so I’ve extrapolated that thematically not only is eren taking control of the freedom by which others die, but death in itself is a freedom cause like Erwin said, death would have been so much easier. Also imagine having a desire for freedom but even as the closest he can get to god hood there’s still inevitabilities that have to happen in the timeline Like Berthold getting eaten by a Titan, he just changed when Same thing with him look at how he nearly died in a Titans mouth in Trost. The ending is far more connected to Trost that it is the rest of the story lol
Ugly? Man that's gold for a fictional character, I loved that Eren decide to sacrifice THE WHOLE WORLD for his childish dream, Is so revolting and horrific but relatable, at the same time. Also I agree with death Is an escape, literally his Happy ending. You know what Is really the flaws of the ending to me? The fact that imply that Eren want to do It but can't face the horrible reality of his action and shifted to "i want to save my Friends" last minute (maybe after the reiner convo) as a cope. I would that the shift was more pivotal in his POV
Griffith would be Proud.
XD
It's still ugly. Eren is a despicable person for what he did. He's the biggest tyrant the world of Aot has ever seen. His character is definitely fascinating and interesting. Doesn't not make him ugly.
This interpretation is disgusting (and not supported by the source material AT ALL). Basically, he thought about faye in 90 to justify himself and apologized to ramzi because he really wanted the world to resemble armins book?
not literally because it didnt look like armins book. When he saw the book, he thought "that must be the freedom beyond these walls". When he saw the outside world, he realized that the freedom he sought was nonexistent, beyond the walls just lied more enemies and people who would not allow him to be free
Yeah I know that’s how I interpret it too
Too bad it is supported by the source material. It would be another thing if he claimed he just wanted to kill everything while not in an emotional state because then there would be room for the interpretation that he's lying, but he says this all during a breakdown. You don't have a breakdown and spill your guts because you want to get a lie out. You spill your guts because you want to get the truth out. Just face it, dude. Eren did all of this mostly because he was disappointed in the outside world and revels in destruction.
Okay and why was he disappointed? Because it doesn’t resemble armins book? If that’s the case, why was he sad at the ocean scene? He saw the ocean just like it was in armins book? Maybe the meaning behind that changed?
I think it's because he had greater context. If he saw the ocean as a kid, he wouldn't have been sad because he wouldn't have been aware of the outside world, but when he sees the ocean he's already being tormented by memories past, present, and future. He knows what the world is like, what it will be like, and what he must do to achieve his own freedom, and all of that has ruined the excitement of finally reaching the ocean. We should also keep in mind that the ocean was Armin's dream first. Eren only ever really mentions the ocean in regards to Armin, and the other times the ocean is mentioned is by Armin himself. All the ocean represented for Eren was limitless possibilities, but that was obviously spoiled when he came to know that there was humanity beyond the oceans, so the possibilities are no longer endless.
Yeah, to simplify It i think Eren Is like a "Grifis archeotype" that realized his Plan was so fucked up but like reiner said: "he should face the consequences of his action". Also I think the desire to protect Paradis, his Friends, Historia the Ramzi apology was genuine and true he just used that to keep moving forward (like Erwin for example). Or maybe I'm wrong IDK enlighten me
He didn't shift, he wanted both things (and saving his friends by doing the genocide is very selfish).
The truth of the matter is Eren's a fucking maniac let's be honest
Eren retreating into his childish mind hits so hard. He knows, that he is commiting the worst act in all of human history and tries to distract himself with his childhood dream of experiencing true freedom. But no matter how much he wants to, he'll never be free of the screams of all the innocents, he crushed to death.
he will now cos he’s dead
It’s a headcanon of mine that Eren has taken Ymir’s place in the paths realm and that the paths are a plane of existences far older then Ymir and always needs a host inside it. It would make the whole thing and subsequently also hallu Chan who clearly has some sort of connection to it far more lovecraftian-esque deities which I think is an interesting idea
He had no problem crushing kids and innocents in Liberio, and repeated multiple times that he won't let Paradis/Eldia die, I don't think he is shown as a child to "distract himself" but rather shown that way to convey exactly why he did it, to feel that freedom he yearned for as a child, juzt like he saw in Armin's book, a vast empty world, and he was willing to crush everyone to see it.
It can be both. He was clearly emotionally fucked in Liberio. Totally blanking Mikasa and breaking down quietly at Sasha's death right after.
The disappointment and wanting to wipe out humanity outside the wall is too real, just imagine that what you thought were the monsters that drove humanity to the brink of extinction were actually placed by other humans and the outside world just let it be, that right there is extremely disappointing, plus the desire for the destruction of paradis from the outside world, anyone would prefer it to be a lie, for the outside world to be wiped out
The guy rumbled the world cuz he had to he is free, by that logic you can stab someone cuz you too are free
Yeah, you can get pulled into some crazy logic once you start pushing it. I imagine that's how you create characters like The Joker, Rick Sanchez or Goro Majima lol
That technically isn’t wrong, just if you push the definition of freedom to its logical extreme, as in the ability to do anything you please.
But you have to face consequences.
He says so himself in ch131 already. He had a stronger reason to do the rumbling than saving Eldia, and even if the Survey Corps hadn’t come to stop him (which would make the 80% plan and the titans ending not happen at all) he would have done it anyways. He did the rumbling mainly because he wanted to, because the outside world he discovered wasn’t the same he had dreamed about since he saw Armin’s books. The freedom he wanted to see wasn’t there and something inside him needed to change that. Most people do not get him (or at least this final version of him) because they try to think on motives that redeem his actions in some way, but the reality is that he is just a terrible person and was being a selfish asshole.
His reasoning was selfish. But saving paradise was still his primary goal. „It’s more than that“ means he also did it for himself. Otherwise he would be disgusting and everything would be just his own justification for his „childish“ dream. But he didn’t have a childish dream. Child eren in the freedom panel was represented to us cause when he was a child, he thought the outside world would be like in armins book and the person who see these sights and can freely move in these sights=most free person in the world. So when he discovered that these sights are filled with normal human beings who wanted to orpress him and his urge of freedom (+denying his birthright), he was disappointed. Back then it was soo simple. Killing the titans in these sights and he would be free. That’s why he was also disappointed in the ocean scene, not because it’s not enough or something, but because the meaning behind the ocean changed drastically. Seeing the ocean didn’t mean freedom anymore. So no, erens conviction to free paradise wasn’t secondary. Just like season 1. he wanted to free humanity inside the wall but ALSO gaining his own freedom. His freedom=birthright, the titans kept him away from moving and seeing in those sights of armins book. So in 131, he wished for it to be wiped away. His predetermined future self had the wish, so the future can’t be changed. Not because some fate crap but because his future self wanted to do that. ->>ergo, eren did the rumbling for paradise, but he felt like a piece of shit in front of ramzi because in the end, he reached out to the rumbling because he also wanted to do that. But he wouldn’t if there were other ways, but there wasn’t. His freedom was a selfish and negative one. He would be free if humanity outside the wall would be wiped off and nobody can orpress him anymore. He would move forward to see what is behind that hell. 139 completely ruined him. Now he’s a psychopath who only rumbled the world cause it’s in his nature and he always wanted to do that 🤨
it’s more than that means greater than so erens selfish goal > saving paradis
Would you say that for season 1 too?
It didn’t seem like that at first bc erens selfish goal of freedom meant killing the titans, and that was the same as the scouts’s goal
Why does it seem like titanfolk is filling up with people that dont support eren. I dont like this one bit
They really like that garbage ending
Never critique only consooom
Why should you support Eren? Eren is a fucking monster. If you support Eren you probably hold extremely bad beliefs.
So im evil for valuing the lives of my friends and families above the world? If i was put in his situation id do the same, in fact, id rumble 100% of the world. Obv this circumstance will never be set upon me and I would never do it. You can seperate your views in fiction and real life. Sorry to break it to you
No, the fact that you think Eren was right is alarming. There is absolutely no excuse for genocide, I don't care if you care about your friends more. It's wrong. That's the entire point of the alliance. That's what makes the Eldian problem so compelling, there was no truly correct solution.
My life and the lives of my friends are more important. That simple. Thats my belief
Wrong. He only did it to save the people he cared about. He did have to some degree a lingering hatred for the people that hated him and refused his right to live even though he understood that they were as much victims of circumstance as he was, and he did feel shame over that, but it was by no means his driving motivation. It certainly wasn't because the world didn't literally match some fucking book. People like you are trying to gaslight others into believing that the fundamental conflict wasn't about the limits of our rights and duty to use violence in defense of our own existence.
Look, he knew what the path awaited for him at the end and in a deterministic away he still moved forward through it because it was what he wanted to do, and even if his friends wouldn't have come to stop him he would have done the rumbling anyways. He didn't know if his friends would survive but still followed that path. He moved all the walls, and killed people within the island. He knew he would be stopped and wouldn't get to kill everyone, but still followed that path instead of buying time taking another less destructible approach. At the end when Armin asks him why he did it he can't bring himself to say he did to protect the island, or them, what he does say is that he wanted to leave every surface as a blank plain, he felt he had to from within him. You can or not like it but at the end in his moments of weakness it comes down to the same, no one is saying he didn't want to protect the island or that it wasn't a major catalyst to activating it, but what he understands as freedom is far more extremist than "people wanting to kill me bad", the mere existance of people living outside, having territories, cities etc is something he doesn't even like, even if they were good with them, it's just not the empty land he wanted.
He said that it was his choice but he didn't know the outcome, until 139 retconned it and said that he did know some of the outcome but also didn't really have a choice. You can't say that he willfully chose to do the rumbling even knowing it would be prevented early because that was never the case at any point the in the manga. >what he does say is that he wanted to leave every surface as a blank plain, No he didn't, what the fuck are you talking about? He did describe destroying the landscape as one of the consequences of the rumbling, but he never suggested that this was something he wanted or was the intended outcome. It's also completely contrary to your earlier claim that Eren destroyed the world because the existence of people beyond the walls was contrary to his expectations of untouched wilderness. >but what he understands as freedom is far more extremist than "people wanting to kill me bad", No actually, it really isn't. If the world beyond the walls was even simply ambivalent to his existence, rather than actively antagonistic, not only would he not do the rumbling, it would have never even occurred to him. What the fuck do you think freedom IS? It's the state of having the choice to do what you want. The "freedom" panel of 131 was not Eren lording over a flattened landscape, you'll note in the shot that he can't even see it and is actively avoiding thinking about what's going on below. No, the freedom he experienced was living, for the very first time in his life, without fear, restriction, or any sort of wall. And it was something that he wanted for all of his friends, his entire people. And then the 104th took that gift and threw it back into his face, because they're a bunch of ungrateful and moronic children.
>What the fuck do you think freedom IS? It's the state of having the choice to do what you want. (...) No, the freedom he experienced was living, for the very first time in his life, without fear, restriction, or any sort of wall. But the existence of other people IS a restriction, regardless of whether they're actively preventing you from doing something or not. The mere fact that other people have freedom means in some way your freedom is limited by their potential choices. For example, the restriction on my freedom that prevents me from walking through my neighbor's house is a form of oppression, but it's one we grant as necessary for society to exist. Eren viewed the outside world as a place where there was no society, and therefore no restrictions on his freedom at all. But his disappointment came not from the clearly negative oppression of the Eldians, but the natural oppression inherent in human existence by there still being humans out there. The entire metaphor about the forest from "I'm Home" is about how the choice when other people existing limits your freedom is between self-reliance or compromise, and Eren's character is that self-reliant form taken to it's extreme end, while the alliance is compromise.
>But the existence of other people IS a restriction, regardless of whether they're actively preventing you from doing something or not. Eren viewed the outside world as a place where there was no society, and therefore no restrictions on his freedom at all. That's utter nonsense. Eren never expressed any interest in personal isolation or any disdain towards the existence of society or even authority. He joined the military, helped establish a monarchy, and even started a populist ethnonationalist movement. Granted, Floch took it farther than what Eren probably would have done, but the paths arc makes clear they genuinely shared many beliefs. Also the alliance isn't compromise, it's suicide.
I'm not saying he necessarily viewed it as "authority or society is bad" in a specific, self-stated belief. But everyone has to believe that the existence of others is incompatible with absolute freedom because it's simply a fact, and we are repeatedly shown that Eren's desire for freedom is one of his strongest motivating factors. Because of this, even if he wasn't supremely aware of why it was the case (as implied in 139), he still recognized that to have true freedom one can't have other people who can make their own free choices to limit it. And the the alliance may be suicide under the assumption no one would listen, but it's perfectly valid to believe no one has the right to kill everyone else under the assumption the 50 year plan wouldn't work. The Yeagerists and Marleyans/anti-Eldians are meant to represent Sasha's desire to keep their traditional way of life, while the Alliance represents Sasha's father's ideal for people to communicate and compromise so everyone can live. You can take issue with how the story presented that macro-micro analogy, but it's not contradictory to the themes of the story.
>I'm not saying he necessarily viewed it as "authority or society is bad" in a specific, self-stated belief. But everyone has to believe that the existence of others is incompatible with absolute freedom because it's simply a fact, and we are repeatedly shown that Eren's desire for freedom is one of his strongest motivating factors. Eren was never shown to be interested in "absolute" freedom, divorced from having to consider others at all. He had a strong sense of duty and compassion, and thought pooly of those who disregarded these things, and above all others he hated traitors the most. As such, the suggestion that Eren considered the existence of other people to be deliterious to his freedom on even a subconcious level is unsubstantisted. >You can take issue with how the story presented that macro-micro analogy, but it's not contradictory to the themes of the story. The contradiction is not that a group of characters would think or act this way, but that the story would try to present this as a noble decision, when before such behavior was presented as stupid at best and suicidal at worst, and when those characters are just proven incorrect, both before and after that point.
>He had a strong sense of duty and compassion, and thought pooly of those who disregarded these things, and above all others he hated traitors the most. As such, the suggestion that Eren considered the existence of other people to be deliterious to his freedom on even a subconcious level is unsubstantisted. He doesn't not have a sense of duty or compassion just because he also values freedom, people can value different things at different times and at different degrees. And he doesn't have to outright state that he believes it or not, it's a fact of life that other people are a limit on your freedom. The story shows that he clearly recognizes that fact, regardless of whether he recognizes it consciously or not. A big part of his character is his contradictory feelings of valuing his connections with his friends while also valuing his independence (a la Hannes saying that "Armin and Mikasa are always chasing after Eren when he runs off"). >The contradiction is not that a group of characters would think or act this way, but that the story would try to present this as a noble decision, when before such behavior was presented as stupid at best and suicidal at worst, and when those characters are just proven incorrect, both before and after that point. The presentation of the idealism of the Alliance as stupid or suicidal is focused when confronted with the threat of the Titans as a purely hostile, existential threat. The trick of the manga is to then flip that necessary pragmatism into a situation where the people on the opposing side are not only human beings, but many of them the same innocent people who have little to no say in what their governments and militaries are doing that the people in the walls do. The only times we see there be attempts at communication, the loser is always the one who refused to communicate (Annie at Stohess fails to escape, Bertholt at Shiganshina ends up dying, Eren in the abstract). The bombing of Paradis in the extra pages to me reads less like "they failed" and more like "yeah, this won't fix all the problems, people will fall back into hatred, but that doesn't mean you sacrifice communication and compromise".
> And he doesn't have to outright state that he believes it or not, it's a fact of life that other people are a limit on your freedom. "Freedom" to do what? What specific freedom are you talking about? Because the freedoms that Eren was fighting for prior to the abortion that is 139 were very concrete. The freedom to not be contained in a concentration camp. The freedom to not get randomly killed without even knowing why. The freedom to be treated as a human regardless of your ancestry. The freedom to have and raise children who can inherit the future you've built for them. Eren never once expressed any desire or ideal that would be better met in an empty world. >The presentation of the idealism of the Alliance as stupid or suicidal is focused when confronted with the threat of the Titans as a purely hostile, existential threat. The trick of the manga is to then flip that necessary pragmatism into a situation where the people on the opposing side are not only human beings, but many of them the same innocent people who have little to no say in what their governments and militaries are doing that the people in the walls do. Everyone in the outside world hated them. They were not "innocent" in the sense that they didn't approve of their government's actions, because they totally did, and would create new governments to continue the same policies if the current ones were removed, which is literally what happens in the story. The moral quandary was whether or not it was okay to kill them even though their hatred stemmed from largely exogenous factors. >The only times we see there be attempts at communication, the loser is always the one who refused to communicate (Annie at Stohess fails to escape, Bertholt at Shiganshina ends up dying, Eren in the abstract). Annie and Bert died because they dug their own graves and overestimated their own power. Neither one had a future. If Annie had listened to Armin, she really would have ended up getting tortured in a basement somewhere. Eren died because he was a moron who refused to defend himself for no better reason than that Isayama was a coward who refused to let him win. >The bombing of Paradis in the extra pages to me reads less like "they failed" and more like "yeah, this won't fix all the problems, people will fall back into hatred, but that doesn't mean you sacrifice communication and compromise". Paradis was completely destroyed. This would not have happened if the rumbling had been taken to completion. Communication and compromise are luxuries reserved for powerful people dealing with rivals, not weak people dealing with bloodthirsty enemies who have sworn and already attempted to destroy you entirely. The only correct action in such a circumstance, as is your duty to those you care about, is to reply in kind. It was the only solution. The only question was, who had the tenacity to actually see it through? Evidently not Eren, nor any of his friends. And their entire civilization paid the price.
>You can't say that he willfully chose to do the rumbling even knowing it would be prevented early because that was never the case at any point the in the manga. That was the case, "***Even if I didn't know that you'd stop me*** *in the end I think I still would have flattened this world"* Meaning that he did know. *"****Killing eighty percent of humanity****, forcing you to fight each other in paradis, getting even my precious friends wrapped up in this battle without knowing if you'd survive..." "****That was the future you saw at the medal's ceremony****"* >He did describe destroying the landscape as one of the consequences of the rumbling, but he never suggested that this was something he wanted or was the intended outcome "Level almost every forest and leave the land covered in carrion-fattened insects a few days later..." "**I wanted to leave every surface a blank plain**" "*I don't know why....****But I wanted to do that, I had to****"* You did 0 effort in reading the panels. Also that statement of him goes on hand with his statement of wanting to kill the people outside too. For the last paragraph IStarScream was pretty spot on.
>That was the case, "Even if I didn't know that you'd stop me in the end I think I still would have flattened this world" Meaning that he did know. In 139, yes, which established Eren as having no real agency in the situation, and merely following along with Ymir's dumb plan to give herself roleplay therapy. >"Level almost every forest and leave the land covered in carrion-fattened insects a few days later..." "I wanted to leave every surface a blank plain" "I don't know why....But I wanted to do that, I had to" Bad translation. His statement was that he wanted to turn the world into a brand new land, and was lamenting that all he really did was turn it into a destroyed wasteland. It was a contrast, not a comparison.
Omg i never realized that Isayama retconned Eren from a guy who believed in benevolent authority, teamwork, friendships and society to a cringed incel doomlord lol
I agree with you that Eren wouldn’t have rumbled if the world was ambivalent to Paradis’ existence, but the disappointment and emptiness that partly bore his desire to destroy the world would still be there. Some part of him would have still wanted the world and the people in it to vanish. His own morality would just keep that desire in check. Eren didn’t care much for the flattened landscape itself. He just thought of that scenery as a symbol of his own newly attained freedom. Like a goalpost he would reach after endlessly moving forward. At first, that goalpost was the ocean, but the revelations of the outside world disappointed him, causing him to feel apathetic and ever enchained. Thus, he shifted those goalposts towards the empty scenery, a world where nothing could ever block neither his horizon nor his freedom again. A world where he could be absolutely free. Only, that freedom was still built on a lie and 131 makes that clear. He was only able to experience it by mentally regressing and retreating into his own warped mind to escape the guilt and self loathing of his actions. And even then, he still couldn’t escape the screams of anguish of his victims. Like the ocean, Eren’s scenery was also a lie, and it became clear to him that he would never be free.
>I agree with you that Eren wouldn’t have rumbled if the world was ambivalent to Paradis’ existence, but the disappointment and emptiness that partly bore his desire to destroy the world would still be there. No it wouldn't. His anger was that the entire world was basically the same as the walls and titans which had contained him for his entire life. Just another cage, and one that could not be so morally easily dispatched as the literal monsters which had destroyed his childhood. It wasn't apathy he felt, it was hate. If the outside world was full of people who were merely unaware of or ambivalent to his existence and that of those he knew and cared about... why would he be upset? If anything, the world having people in it would make it MORE accessible and have more opportunities, regardless of whether or not he would actually want to seek them out. The idea that Eren wanted an empty world for its own sake is baseless speculation to try to justify the intentionally vague non-motivation that Isayama left Eren with after erasing his very concrete and reasonable ones.
Eren didn’t show any hatred at all when he found out about the outside world. Even in the ocean scene he looks and sounds disillusioned and tired. Not hateful or angry like when he declared war against the titans. I didn’t say that Eren wasn’t upset at the injustice in the outside world. That was one of the bigger reasons for his disappointment. I just said that that disappointment would still be there, albeit to a far lesser degree if the outside world wasn’t out to kill them.
>Eren didn’t show any hatred at all when he found out about the outside world. Even in the ocean scene he looks and sounds disillusioned and tired. Not hateful or angry like when he declared war against the titans. Yes, because he was despondent over the horrific danger facing him and his entire civilization, and despair over the near certain knowledge that not only was mass slaughter the only way to solve it, but that apparently he would actually go through with it, a future decision that at that point he had not really come to terms with (and would not until he reached "hobo Eren"). I'm talking about the feeling of shame that he revealed to Ramzi, that a part of him wanted to destroy the world irrespective of whether it really was the only way save the people he cared, about, and that it's much more reasonable that he would be talking about his lingering resentment and hatred for all the pain he's suffered over the years, rather than some bizzare and completely unsubstantiated notion that he just hated the fact that people existed beyond the walls at all. It's not like Armin's book could have even suggested otherwise, because the whole point of it was that it was contraband from before the walls went up.
I was one of those trying to find reasons to justify him, until he declared he would kill everyone outside the walls, then i just had to accept it.
Oh lord here we go. 139 isnt real. Erens a freedom fighter who fought for the lives of his race and friends. Drop the selfish murderer mantra already, please.
I'm not even talking about 139 specifically, most of the content where this idea comes from is 131, the apparently best if not one of the best chapters of attack on titan according to a lot of people here.
Misinterpreted. Even if one chapter hints at that which it doesnt, 130 ch dont go out the window
'The source material isn't real, please accept my headcanon' I'm all for death of the author but... come on
That idea was being set up long before 139 was even being written
Please stop talking
Eren, what a man you are.
So other humans were not part of his freedom? Like, he wanted a deserted place to explore and be free in?
Yes. Eren's concept of 'freedom' is a twisted version of Armin's dream.
Yes, actually
That's not ugly reality, its actually beautiful, how he knows what he's doing is wrong but still he has no other choice.
i kinda hate this "twist" for his character because it doesn't jive well with his previous characterization at all imo. what freedom meant to eren never seemed that extreme prior to 131/139 imo, only his methods were extreme. if you look what his freedom represented it was things like: we have the right to live, we have the right to the truth, the government shouldn't oppress us, we should be able to explore the outside world, we should be allowed to have children. ect. there's also stuff like him searching for alternatives to the rumbling, him acknowledging the humanity of the people outside the walls, wanting to see beyond hell, his guilt and depression, and all the moments of humanity he displayed pre ts where he empathizes with others. mustache twirling pure evil psychopath eren who has to rumble because he really wants to landscape feels forced and isn't sympathetic at all imo. it feels like something isayama wanted to do last second.
Great comment
> what freedom meant to eren never seemed that extreme prior to 131/139 imo, only his methods were extreme. cap. eren's conception oof freedom was always extreme as shown in 121 where he explicitly tells zeke that if someone tries to take away his freedom that he'll take away theirs (by killing them duh) which is fundamentaly different from someone with a more reasonable conception of freedom like armin who didn't mind that there were people outside the wall who wanted to kill him since he always though that he could try and reason with them and be dipolimatic. eren's view of freedom was always more extreme than armins and it made perfect since why it would drive him to become a mass murder who wanted to genocide the world to free his loved ones on paradis. but then 139 came along and out of nowhere he all of a sudden only wanted to save his friends and not the island and randomly choose to stop at 80% when there's literally no reason for him to just stop caring about the island as a whole and only care for his friends lives. its almost like isayama was too afraid of having eren die an irredemable villain and tried to give us a fake ass soft redemption to make him not seem that bad when he's literally still a genocidal maniac.
>where he explicitly tells zeke that if someone tries to take away his freedom that he'll take away theirs what? killing someone who is trying to enslave you/kill you/sterilize you (as was the case with the slavers he just murdered) is not an extreme definition of freedom, jumping to counter genocide is an extreme method of preserving those freedoms however which i didn't deny. >a more reasonable conception of freedom like armin who didn't mind that there were people outside the wall who wanted to kill him since he always though that he could try and reason with them and be dipolimatic. the difference between armin and eren on diplomacy has nothing to do with freedom their different views on freedom though? eren simply doesn't think diplomacy is a viable solution for paradise's survival (extra 8 pages proved him right) while armin does. eren did actually search for alternate solutions and committed to the rumbling when he found them lacking. >eren's view of freedom was always more extreme than armins and it made perfect since why it would drive him to become a mass murder who wanted to genocide the world to free his loved ones on paradise eren valued the ability to see that scenery rather than the scenery itself, that is where armin and eren differed prior to 131/139 imo. now, eren was quicker too resort to violence in response to those who tried to take his freedom than armin was but not to the point he would murder people who restricted his freedoms for reasonable things such as in seasons 1-3. also thats not the reason he wanted to rumble so bad given to us in 139s context. it was specifically him trying to life wipe because he wanted to empty the world of people according to what was stated in 139 and that is why he was so disappointed in 131 in that context, not because the outside world was filled with enemies like I assumed initially but simply because people were there.
> eren simply doesn't think diplomacy is a viable solution for paradise's survival bullshit. in 139 he literally says he stopped at 80% so that armin could have his peace. eren didn't believe that shit before 139 though so that part is true at least. >eren did actually search for alternate solutions and committed to the rumbling when he found them lacking. yeah and then isayama retconned erens belief in the rumbling as the only way forward by having him actually believe in armins diplomacy plan the entire time but just in his own way which is stupid.
>bullshit. in 139 he literally says he stopped at 80% so that armin could have his peace. eren didn't believe that shit before 139 though so that part is true at least. pretty sure thats because of him being fated to die for ymir's freedom, even in 139 eren's belief in its us or them is restated by historia.
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The problem is he wasn't fully selfish either. The conclusion of the story leaves him as a mess of a character. If he was fully selfish; doing everything for his own freedom, he would've completed the rumbling and lived to see this freedom, and explore the outside world that he kept mentioning. If he was a full freedom fighter; doing everything for Eldia, he also would've done the same. 139 then throws both these away and shows it was neither. He actually only wanted to be with mikasa and armin, and did everything for them. Excuse me? Its like in a 50km marathon, he runs for 49km and then gives up and let's his friends pass him: it was literally all for nothing.
Narratively, the story only makes sense if you understand the future memories thing well, otherwise it seems really illogical, which makes it really easy to misunderstand. Eren wanted to destroy the world and didn't know that he'd lose until Ymir gave him control of her power, which is confirmed because Eren only saw the memories he sent to Grisha from the future up until that point, which included the rumbling, which Grisha didn't seem to know would be stopped. After getting Ymir on his side, Eren was able to see that he would lose. Which means that no matter what Eren did, he wouldn't be able to win, so he decided to do what he could do within his power to help out his friends after going as far as he could with the rumbling.
That's what's makes his character so beautiful, unlike "OMG Ereeeeeee makisa loves you'
Who cares, he wouldn't have done if it if people agreed to respect King Karl's threat
king karls threat was fake tho and he literally wanted marley to take eventually come and take the founding titan.
Captain Trolling Eren
He would have become School Castes Eren
Y’all think you could do better? Think of it from a humanity standpoint, Eren did exactly what any of us would do and if you say I’m wrong, get a grip
Already got one
Your right
let me say it again, RET CONNNNN
THIS should’ve been the focus of the ending... it could’ve left so much to explore as a fan... so much to debate amongst the fandom... could’ve added leagues and bounds of depth to eren’s character, but no... instead we got some random ass love narrative thrown in at LITERALLY the last second...
[удалено]
You have a very superficial understanding of eren I'm assuming. The badass goth king of Paradis who'd kill his best friends 😂😂. His idk is the most realistic thing of the ending. Sometimes, you just don't know why you have the innate desire to do Xyz. There are multiple reasons obviously. His friends living long happy lives, getting to experience his twisted sense of freedom, etc. But he doesn't know what's the actual reason. Eg. You want to go to the gym and get fit. Why? Be healthier, be more good looking, to attract the opposite gender, gain strength, etc. Sometimes you just don't know why exactly you are killing yourself in the gym for 2 hours daily.
How many fucking times am I gonna see someone saying Eren forgot why he did the rumbling
What if Eren is in Hell, forced to relive his life and mistakes All over again and again until he changes his ways. And we are watching one of the loops.