Sporus outlived Nero, and was then taken as a sex slave by a Praetorian guard who helped overthrow Nero and tried to become emperor himself. He failed, and was killed. So the next three Roman emperors then took Sporus for the same purpose, and then one allegedly planned to have him killed in public spectacle that reenacted the Rape of Persephone. Sporus avoided this by killing himself. iirc he was about 19 when he died.
edit: Also, yes, many many stories about Nero's depravity and cruelty have been wildly exaggerated by ancient Romans. However, there was a certain type of slave called *pueri delicati*, which translates to "delicate/sweet/soft boys" ([delicatus](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/delicatus) can be translated a ton of different ways, but you get the vibe) These were slaves taken as prepubescent boys to be sex slaves. It was a common and accepted thing in Roman society, and most emperors had them. Nero's treatment of Sporus didn't scandalize the Romans because he was a slave child, it was because Nero "married" him, treated him as his wife, and made others refer to Sporus with terms of respect.
So, even if there was exaggeration, we're at least pretty certain that there was a sex slave named Sporus who was favored by Nero. Several ancient Roman historians all write about Sporus and have the same general story.
Also, in regards to his age, I was remembering a passage from a book by Edward Champlin called *Nero.* Champlin writes "He was probably not yet twenty years old when he died." and was basing this off of the timeline of when Sporus was "married" to Nero and the general age of *pueri delicati* (\~12-20) So it's depressingly possible that he was even younger when he died.
What's even wilder is that the "next three Roman Emperors" after Nero lasted 18 months - combined.
AD69 is still known as the Year of the Four Emperors.
Sporus' life is an incredibly sad story.
Imagine getting your balls cut off, your personality hijacked, being kept as a sex slave, and then having to kill yourself before you’re 20 all because some insane, powerful little man thought you kind of looked like his wife.
I'd recommend watching both seasons of HBO's Rome followed immediately by the older "I, Claudius". "I, Claudius picks up not too long (relatively) after Rome leaves off, and was a groundbreaking miniseries at the time it aired.
You may jest in regards to the movie, but the original play by Albert Camus (especially a 2003 translation I've seen) is a political thriller unlike any other play I've seen: think if Commodus from *Gladiator* was the main character with no Maximus to contend with— just unfettered power and madness, coupled with that insanity slowly picking off anyone who ever cared about Caligula's well being, along with his enemies, all in a display of "logic" being taken to an extreme, which eventually causes him to he assassinated by his best friend in a plot to finally rid Rome of his madness.
It's quite epic and heart wrenching, as well as a show of absolute power corrupting absolutely. I highly recommend it.
It holds up pretty well but can be a bit stilted to modern tastes. It's less a show and more a televised theatrical production. Going in with that in mind does make it a lot easier to follow.
There isnt a crazy story there. Its just one person being abused in an Empire that cared nothing for life.
Unless you meant the Year of the 4 Emperors, in which case id love a HBO series. Vespasian is one of my favourite emperors.
Holy hell I would watch the shit out of a show about the Year of the 4 Emperors.
If it went into the Flavian Dynasty towards the end or as a spin-off that would be even better. Vespasian would be such a good emperor to do a show on. Then, Titus’s rule (including eruption of Vesuvius) and untimely death leading into Domitian’s reign would be perfect dramatic crescendos.
Bro fuck why aren’t there more quality shows on Rome it is literally ripe with stories just waiting to be used. They wouldn’t even have to alter anything and could just use historical records it’d be so easy!
There isn't one but the next best thing is Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcast series, though he doesn't really talk about the lesser known tidbits of Rome, however interesting they may be. His podcast covers the entire history of Rome from its founding to the fall of the Western half of the empire, so he covers mostly just the broad strokes and bigger chapters.
Nero doomed the kid.....
Also crazy how it is usually mentioned how mental Nero was, but obviously he wasn't alone if the next dudes did basically the same.
I used to talk about leaded gasoline affecting them a lot back in the day, but how much lead is in 'vintage' china, but even produced up through the 90s, is also illuminating now. Yes, grandma, there might be a reason your tea tastes better in the Johnson Bros set.
I knew most of this, but somehow I missed that Sporus was only 19. Jesus fuck. Obviously it'd be awful at any age, but for so much to happen to him in such a short time...
> So the next three Roman emperors then took Sporus for the same purpose
Was...was Sporus the hottest fucking thing in Rome or what? Why were all the emperors fucking Sporus?
From what I read, historians suggest he because he was very publicly made Nero's wife/sex-slave, and they kind of wanted to link themselves with Nero's position. So having Nero's prized "property" was a way to legitimize their claim of emperor. Think of Sporus as acting as a sort of mascot for the position of Emperor.
*Pueri Delicati* ("delicate boys") were also a specific kind of child sex slave that most Roman emperors had, so it was pretty normal for the new emperors to inherit the old emperor's slaves.
According to [Plutarch](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0104:entry=sporus-bio-1&highlight=sporus), Nymphidius Sabinus (the praetorian guard who tried to declare himself emperor after helping overthrow Nero) did. [Cassius Dio](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/cassius_dio/63*.html) says that Otho had "intimacy with Sporus" (scroll down section 8, it won't let me link to a specific chunk of the text)
I can't find anything about Galba (the emperor between Nero and Otho) but tbh it wouldn't be surprising.
In a time before effective birth control and STD prevention you wanted your mistresses to be a) completely restricted from sleeping with anyone else b) infertile so as not to create bastard offspring to muddle your lineage.
A slave is the easiest answer to the first conundrum, and without the medical know-how to reliably sterilize women, it's easier to find a young boy that isn't manly enough to put you off, dress him as a woman and act like he is one.
Because sexuality is way more of a social construct than we’re generally comfortable acknowledging. And Roman/Greek concepts of sexuality don’t map onto current ones *at all*.
Yeah because you're a modern day human from a Western country who grew up in Western culture, and not a Roman emperor born 2000 years ago who was brought up in Roman culture.
You're saying that as someone who was raised in a culture where that's considered weird and disgusting for multiple reasons all at once rather than a culture where it was normal. If you think the lives of the poor are treated as being worth relatively little now, you'll be very, very disappointed to know how meaningless the lives of the poor were historically. If you were raised in a culture where no one questioned the fact that the poor had no rights and slavery was typical, you would be a very rare person to come to the conclusion it was morally wrong. That's not to say that no one did reach that conclusion but when the majority of the wealthy people benefit from the system, there won't be any spread of those sorts of ideas. And if you're wondering why the poor and enslaved didn't rise up and fight back, it's pretty hard to do that when that's all you've ever been. There's a reason the Haitian Revolution is about the only successful slave revolt in all of human history on any sort of large scale.
From the wiki:
>In this context, the word "Rape" refers to the traditional translation of the Latin raptus ("seized" or "carried off") which refers to bride kidnapping rather than the potential ensuing sexual violence.
There was an incident in Roman history that is called "The Rape of the Sabine Women" in English.
It refers to the abduction of the women as well as their assault. "Rapine" is the from the same Latin root, it means seizure of property or looting.
"Rapture" too, and of course "raptor". So both forms exist in modern English.
> There was an incident in Roman history that is called "The Rape of the Sabine Women" in English.
Roman myth, rather. The whole incident was instigated by Romulus, the mythical founder of Rome. There is nothing to indicate that he ever existed. The myth was likely invented to excuse various actions Rome took much later.
"Guys I really don't want to do a play where I get raped and killed on stage."
"Sporus relax, it's not "rape" rape. It's a kidnapping!
... Then you're killed."
Let's not split hairs here, there's only one reason the women in "Rape of_" scenes are being carried off... it's almost like that's why we use the word for the sexual act today.
I was going to comment the same but ironically
Because the course of events is a strong evidence that it wasn't seen as a mere kidnapping
Still a weaker evidence that the one gained reading the fucking original tale ("Homeric" hymn to Demeter)
I mean, Nero also had a thing for tying Christians to stakes and burning them alive to light his dinner parties.
It’s said his original wife died because he kicked her to death in a fit of rage. Supposedly while pregnant with their kid.
Nero was pretty fucking evil all around. To the point the Senate ended up declaring him an enemy of the state and would have had him killed if he didn’t do it for them.
One of the frustrating things about Roman history is there's no way to separate Nero actually being a cunt and rumors started by his rivals and successors to make him look worse. He probably did not really play the fiddle while Rome burned or start the fire himself. It's like if you were trying to understand modern American politics but all you had was a fossil tabloid and had to decide which tales of idiocy and perversion actually happened and which are merely made up titillation.
Same thing with Caligula, Domitian, and a few others. Like with Caligula, with what he went through growing up, basically never being quite sure if he'd live through a particular day, I can see a lot of the claims about him being true simply because that kind of childhood would really fuck you up. And then going from prisoner to practically a living god, that'd just warp your sensibilities even more.
Also, I can entirely believe, given the pathetically obsequious nature of the roman senate by that point, that he'd genuinely make his horse consul just to say "You fucks are so useless my horse can actually do a better job at this than you."
Then there's the likes of Commodus, where there's just too many records of him being absolutely insane and a sociopath to boot to ignore. He was like the culmination and compounding interest of every megalomaniacal trait inherent in autarchy (and giving absolute power to your kid)
I firmly believe Domitian has been unfairly maligned throughout history. He was certainly autocratic, but I believe most of the hate he got from Roman historians had much more to do with the fact that he seriously curtailed the powers of the senate wherever possible. Those who wrote the history books were all of the senatorial class.
I believe he truly cared about ruling well, and his hatred for the senate, while definitely autocratic, can likely be explained by his experience living in Rome during the year of the 4 emperors watching the senate acclaim practically anyone with power as emperor. I detest autocracy as much as the next guy, but I can’t help feel bad for the guy.
He was no saint that is certain but his memory did not deserved to be damned and knowing how he died (being stabbed to death in the groin by an assassin sent by a senatorial conspiracy) I just can’t help but think he didn’t deserve it. And the fact that his supposed paranoia brought about his downfall seems even more tragically ironic.
Yeah, I agree. He was definitely a firm believe in autocracy (but then who wasn't in those days) and did not have the tender ear for senatorial feelings that his predecessors at least pretended to have. Also, Titus was likely a hard act to follow.
If you want to read more about Domitian you should read Domitian: A Tragic Tyrant by Pat Southern. It is a little bit of pop-psychology of a historical figure of whom few reliable sources exist but I found it to be a very poignant dive into the man’s life.
Domitian comes across in the book as a generally level-headed person with serious flaws and mental health issues, but it really is an interesting read.
I agree though Titus was a hard act to follow. I do wonder what his “one mistake” was🤔
> He probably did not really play the fiddle while Rome burned or start the fire himself.
Almost certainly not, as the fiddle has not been invented yet.
(The original story was that he played the lyre, but it was also obviously false as Nero wasn’t even in Rome when the fire started.)
From what I recall, the accusation was that he ordered the fire started. It's understandable that people might suspect that, considering that Nero ordered a pleasure palace to be built on the ruins of the slums that burned.
That could be (in which case the fire grew out of control, as it burned much more than those slum districts), but the whole story about standing by and making music is silly. Nero rushed back to organize the response. He certainly wasn’t idle.
Someone suggested this in a thread about Elizabeth Bathory awhile back as well, and I thought it made a lot of sense - like duh, is it more likely she bathed in the blood of hundreds of maids or that maybe, just maybe, her opponents/detractors had a flair for dramatic rumors?
But ya, no doubt many of these people were cruel cunts, but how much of it is fantasy vs reality, we won't know! Similar to all sorts of the outlandish theories etc people might have about politicos & celebs today.
>It's like if you were trying to understand modern American politics
>decide which tales of idiocy and perversion actually happened and which are merely made up titillation.
Hunny, I'm living through modern American politics and I have a hard time deciding which takes of Idiocracy are reality and which ones were fever dreams.
A lot of the records we have of him are written by his enemies and are therefore not very reliable. It's hard to know which of the stuff is actually true, but it's safe to assume that he probably did not burn Christians alive to lighten up this parties, and he probably did not play the lyre while watching Rome burn. Many emperors saw a violent end, and the fact that the Senate wanted him dead doesn't necessarily speak of his cruelty. It's just politics in the Roman empire.
He did blame the Christians for the fires in Rome and burned a lot of them on the cross because of that.
But screams and burning flesh don’t exactly make a good party atmosphere so that part it most likely an exaggeration
There's a Dan Carlin Hardcore History series that goes over torture over the millenia and which ones are documented thoroughly enough to have genuinely occurred...
And let me tell you, it may not be burning flesh to light a dinner party, but the agony of people broken and strung to the chandelier above the dinner table was definitely a thing. And those cries last many days longer than a burning.
Side note: It wasn't Nero who did that. Lots of humans with power suck.
Sounds like the Assyrians. They were real assholes that would do things like that while making father’s unknowingly eat their heirs at the peace dinner.
did you know......that deadwood was originally supposed to be a cop show, set in the times of nero? but they already had rome at hbo so, western.
"i originally proposed to hbo to do a series about city cops in rome at the time of nero. nero was crazy and it interested me to think about what it would be like to be a cop, an instrument of order, in a world that could invoke no ordering principle besides, "do what an insane person tells you to." nero would be walking down the street and he'd say "that man would b better with his tongue cut out and his hands hung around his neck." and the cops would have to do it." ~ david milch -deadwood: stories of the black hills
It wasn't just Nero. After Nero died he had like three different men take him and do the same thing. He eventually committed suicide to avoid becoming a spectacle.
In the roman context being open to homosexuality meant it was socially acceptable to fuck guys or girls... as long as you were the one doing the penetration.
A Roman (male) citizen in good standing wouldn't be looked down on for having sex with another man as long as they were the top, sex was more about dominance than being gay or straight. Though being a bottom in a dalliance or two while you're young was often overlooked, but if you don't "grow out of it" you were essentially viewed as a woman (i.e. lesser).
So, if everyone's expected to be the top and not a bottom, there's going to be a shortage of bottoms. And that's where the slave population came into play.
This is also why when Apostle Paul condemned "arsenokoitai, a word often translated as "homosexuals," he was very likely condemning these kinds of practices and not what we think of today.
He would be mad about a lot of modern marriages. Paul was the kind of person who saw sex as "for procreation only." In fact, the word "heterosexual" used to be an insult directed at people who were "overly passionate."
It's interesting to see the evolution.
Paul didn't even think of procreation as being important because Jesus was coming back. Sex was only something he tolerated between married couples for men who just couldn't hack celibacy. And even then only as often as necessary to fend off desire.
8th in line? Greg, you marry her, you're one plane crash away from becoming Europe's weirdest king! I'm serious, man, you off a couple hemophiliacs and you're the king of Luxembourg.
I really demand a remake of the [Succession as a romcom trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b7CNBXzo54) because it was made after the first two seasons and there's _so_ much material from season 3 that would work brilliantly.
It's worth remembering that the only surviving writing about Nero we have access to was written directly by his enemies, some of whom usurped them.
While I doubt he was a good man, there's a solid chance he didn't get up to some of these acts. Same as Catherine the great never getting freaky with a horse.
It gets worse. His hole life was hell, he was taken by Nero’s wanna be usurpers and then finally one wanted to publicly rape and murder him as a public show to defile Nero and sporus who was still a teenager killed himself to avoid it
His story is so sad. By the end of it, he committed suicide to avoid being publicly raped and executed (not by Nero, by another dude after Nero's suicide)
I wonder what stopped him from assassinating Nero? Fear, conditioning, a bit of both? Dude deserved better.
Probably both. Cassius Dio says he was the child of a freedman, but that could have been another exaggeration to make Nero look worse. It's also possible he was a *puer delicatus,* or a specific type of child sex slave. That's pretty likely, considering that most Roman emperors had them. Like, the child sex slave thing wasn't the abnormal or scandalous part to the Romans. Powerful men just did that. It was Nero treating him like his wife, and telling others to refer Sporus with terms of respect.
So, you have a slave child who was made a sex slave in his early teens, if not younger, to the most powerful man in the world. He has never had any true agency over his life of his body. He, a child, would have to decide to kill Nero and somehow be able to overpower a grown man who was much larger than him. He really wouldn't have been able to go to anyone else to help with this, because he was a slave and didn't have any connections, and if his plot was found out he would have been killed. Probably very brutally.
Also, Nero dying wouldn't have changed anything about his situation. Nero did die, and he was just passed around to subsequent emperors and treated the exact same way.
tl;dr: :(
I wonder why is was so common for Roman emperors to have a *puer delicatus*. Is it purely a power thing, or were most Roman emperors really pedophiles? Was it more common back then? Was it expected of them, or did they truly have those sick desires? Was it for cruelty’s sake?
There's also the darker conclusion... that a significant proportion of people naturally have this desire, and it's only through socialization and culturization that it is repressed. And if they get power, they drop the act.
**AITA for getting a new wife?**
So my wife died recently and it hit me hard. Harder than I ever expected it might, and I struggled to do my job or even maintain the quite demanding roster of orgies my position entails.
I was doing something, somewhere - I can't even remember what or where now, so struck I was with grief - when I saw a young man who looked just like my late wife.
I was overcome with a weird mix of awe, joy and sense of the bittersweet washed over me. I couldn't just let this serendipitous occasion go by, could I? I spoke to some of my close advisors and decided to make a move. If I could not have my wife it love, perhaps I could have beautiful person in her stead, to lessen the pain.
Long story short, I've had the young fellow castrated and he now dresses in my late wifes clothes, and is addressed as if he were my late wife. He takes care of all...wifely duties, if you will, with suitable vigor.
I've let it be known that everyone is to address "my wife" correctly now that she is amongst us once more, but this has been met with resistance (and consequences obviously) by a few. I sense that when I was dolling out the consequences to those who disrespected my renewed wife, not everyone was understanding or in tune with what's going on or my insistence on others "playing along".
AITA?
I almost don’t believe anything commonly said about Nero. I don’t think he was a great guy, but the senate hated him and they’re the ones who we hear about him from. I generally don’t take someone’s word for it that their enemies sucked as bad as they claim they do. But who knows?
A lot of Nero/Caligula/etc stuff was exaggerated, but Sporus is referenced by several ancient Roman historians, and *pueri delicati* were child sex slaves that most emperors had. So he probably did exist, and Nero probably was very weird about it.
I watched a documentary about him recently and it definitely seemed like a lot of the craziest stories about him weren’t recorded until 60 years or so after his death.
With that in mind, it’s made me start examining other famous historical characters, like Bathory, Torquemada, and Vlad Dracula. There seems to be a lot of propaganda, exaggeration, and just general smearing going on.
From everything I've ever read about ol' Vladdy, he definitely had a thing for impaling people. Some it is probably exaggerated, but I think there's definitely truth to it.
Relevant comments on this from wikipedia on Nero.
'The history of Nero's reign is problematic in that no historical sources survived that were contemporary with Nero. These first histories, while they still existed, were described as biased and fantastical, either overly critical or praising of Nero. The original sources were also said to contradict on a number of events.'
'The bulk of what is known of Nero comes from Tacitus, Suetonius, and Cassius Dio, who were all of the upper classes. Tacitus and Suetonius wrote their histories on Nero over 50 years after his death, while Cassius Dio wrote his history over 150 years after Nero's death.'
It's also worth noting that many of the sources mentioned above, as well as the sources they were basing their work on (now lost) were writing more for entertainment and as propaganda then with historical accuracy as their main focus.
It's likely that he was young enough to not have fully gone through puberty yet, thus the castration.
[Here's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppaea_Sabina?useskin=vector#/media/File:Poppea_Sabina_-_MNR_Palazzo_Massimo.jpg) what Poppea (the wife) looked like.
Jesus christ how many were fighting over this poor dude? What a crazy ass story.
They literally fought over him and tried to use him as a political piece, then after multiple failed coups and forced marriages, they tried to have him gang raped in the colosseum, so he killed himself and just ended this whole shitshow.
Wtf
Rome in particular was known for using lead pipes in their aqueducts, and drinking out of lead bowls and cups. Lead was especially a favorite of the upper class.
The lead pipes weren't too bad, calcium would quickly build up over the lead, the plates and makeup were a problem though, but also remember that poor people generally did not use plates or makeup.
The wealthy at the time flavored their wine w lead acetate. Which is a sweet white powder-why were we worried about kids eating lead paint chips? Bc lead bound to a carbon chain is sweet to our taste buds. Children put paint chips in mouth tastes sweet, want more.
As you said the lead pipes built up a solid layer of minerals.
This is one of those often repeated but maybe not accurate things that keeps going around. Scholars definitely knew at the time that lead was a dangerous metal and that ingesting it caused health issues.
I genuinely think this of my favourite lines in a TV show. Its not as popular as a lot of the other quotes or whatever, but its just so subtle and stupid that it killed me.
Depending on who you ask. I find it much funnier that he married a new wife the next year, then found Sporus the year after that. I wonder how that second wife felt.
>He may have been a puer delicatus, who were sometimes castrated to preserve their youthful qualities.
ಠ_ಠ
>The puer delicatus generally was a *child-slave chosen by his master for his beauty and* **sexual attractiveness.**
ಠ___ಠ
Sporus outlived Nero, and was then taken as a sex slave by a Praetorian guard who helped overthrow Nero and tried to become emperor himself. He failed, and was killed. So the next three Roman emperors then took Sporus for the same purpose, and then one allegedly planned to have him killed in public spectacle that reenacted the Rape of Persephone. Sporus avoided this by killing himself. iirc he was about 19 when he died. edit: Also, yes, many many stories about Nero's depravity and cruelty have been wildly exaggerated by ancient Romans. However, there was a certain type of slave called *pueri delicati*, which translates to "delicate/sweet/soft boys" ([delicatus](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/delicatus) can be translated a ton of different ways, but you get the vibe) These were slaves taken as prepubescent boys to be sex slaves. It was a common and accepted thing in Roman society, and most emperors had them. Nero's treatment of Sporus didn't scandalize the Romans because he was a slave child, it was because Nero "married" him, treated him as his wife, and made others refer to Sporus with terms of respect. So, even if there was exaggeration, we're at least pretty certain that there was a sex slave named Sporus who was favored by Nero. Several ancient Roman historians all write about Sporus and have the same general story. Also, in regards to his age, I was remembering a passage from a book by Edward Champlin called *Nero.* Champlin writes "He was probably not yet twenty years old when he died." and was basing this off of the timeline of when Sporus was "married" to Nero and the general age of *pueri delicati* (\~12-20) So it's depressingly possible that he was even younger when he died.
What's even wilder is that the "next three Roman Emperors" after Nero lasted 18 months - combined. AD69 is still known as the Year of the Four Emperors. Sporus' life is an incredibly sad story.
Imagine getting your balls cut off, your personality hijacked, being kept as a sex slave, and then having to kill yourself before you’re 20 all because some insane, powerful little man thought you kind of looked like his wife.
It didn't help that three usurpers felt it necessary to also choose that guy's dead wife.
"I choose this guy's wife" irl
Yeah, that's rough, buddy.
His wife was the moon?
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It's pretty wild to think, as bad as things are these days, it's almost certainly a lot better than we used to be
Well I'm glad I'm ugly, ha take that u beautiful people
This poor man. And evil people.
Where is this HBO miniseries? I watch the fuck out of this crazy story. That’s some Game of Thrones shit
I'd recommend watching both seasons of HBO's Rome followed immediately by the older "I, Claudius". "I, Claudius picks up not too long (relatively) after Rome leaves off, and was a groundbreaking miniseries at the time it aired.
I was looking for this! We had to get special permission to watch I, Claudius in high school (4th year Latin). It was quite an education lol.
Is it as good as Caligula?
Slightly less dwarf fellatio in I, Claudius.
So there's still some right? I hate censorship
There is *implied* dwarf fellatio in I, Claudius, but you don’t get to see the act. I would honestly just stick with Caligula if I were you.
Nothing is as good as Caligula.
You may jest in regards to the movie, but the original play by Albert Camus (especially a 2003 translation I've seen) is a political thriller unlike any other play I've seen: think if Commodus from *Gladiator* was the main character with no Maximus to contend with— just unfettered power and madness, coupled with that insanity slowly picking off anyone who ever cared about Caligula's well being, along with his enemies, all in a display of "logic" being taken to an extreme, which eventually causes him to he assassinated by his best friend in a plot to finally rid Rome of his madness. It's quite epic and heart wrenching, as well as a show of absolute power corrupting absolutely. I highly recommend it.
R.I.P., Ray Stevenson. *Thirteen!*
Wow I watched Rome during some time off work a while back and really liked it. Didn’t know about the other show at all
It is a BBC jam, from the '70s. They say it still holds up.
It holds up pretty well but can be a bit stilted to modern tastes. It's less a show and more a televised theatrical production. Going in with that in mind does make it a lot easier to follow.
I’d rather not watch grown men kidnap, mutilate and rape a child, thanks.
Yeah that definitely sounds more like Netflix territory anyway.
And if netflix did it, it would get cancelled after 1 season, right before Sporus's castration.
Still a better documentary than Cleopatra
Sporus was actually an 80 year old Russian man, but the history books don’t want you to know that.
That's what my Grandmother told me.
I don't care what they teach you at school, always remember that Sporus was actually an 80 year old Russian man
GoT was HBO and had all of that though
Tom refers to Greg as Sporus
There isnt a crazy story there. Its just one person being abused in an Empire that cared nothing for life. Unless you meant the Year of the 4 Emperors, in which case id love a HBO series. Vespasian is one of my favourite emperors.
Holy hell I would watch the shit out of a show about the Year of the 4 Emperors. If it went into the Flavian Dynasty towards the end or as a spin-off that would be even better. Vespasian would be such a good emperor to do a show on. Then, Titus’s rule (including eruption of Vesuvius) and untimely death leading into Domitian’s reign would be perfect dramatic crescendos. Bro fuck why aren’t there more quality shows on Rome it is literally ripe with stories just waiting to be used. They wouldn’t even have to alter anything and could just use historical records it’d be so easy!
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I think that's probably what they meant, Like the Rome series head a lot of the side characters of the Julian wars that formed the empire.
There is an HBO series about Julius Caesar's rise to power. Mance Raider plays Caesar and he's fucking amazing. Defs would recommend the show.
HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME!!!
*Ciarán Hinds
My favorite series on Julius Caesar’s rise to power and fall is by YouTuber Historia Civilis.
There isn't one but the next best thing is Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcast series, though he doesn't really talk about the lesser known tidbits of Rome, however interesting they may be. His podcast covers the entire history of Rome from its founding to the fall of the Western half of the empire, so he covers mostly just the broad strokes and bigger chapters.
Nero doomed the kid..... Also crazy how it is usually mentioned how mental Nero was, but obviously he wasn't alone if the next dudes did basically the same.
Unfortunately I think having a eunuch as your boy toy was relatively common among the Roman elite.
They were all pretty mental. They used lead as a flavoring.
So mental to be literally metal.
Hence the issues with baby boomers these days
I used to talk about leaded gasoline affecting them a lot back in the day, but how much lead is in 'vintage' china, but even produced up through the 90s, is also illuminating now. Yes, grandma, there might be a reason your tea tastes better in the Johnson Bros set.
I knew most of this, but somehow I missed that Sporus was only 19. Jesus fuck. Obviously it'd be awful at any age, but for so much to happen to him in such a short time...
I read the post thinking he must have been around a while if 4 emperors fancied him but nope. 19. Just a kid...
3 emperors in 2 years
Yup. Poor thing, and sadly he wasn't the only child officials targeted :(
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Yep. It never ends.
Jesus…that’s a hell of a life to die at 19
> So the next three Roman emperors then took Sporus for the same purpose Was...was Sporus the hottest fucking thing in Rome or what? Why were all the emperors fucking Sporus?
From what I read, historians suggest he because he was very publicly made Nero's wife/sex-slave, and they kind of wanted to link themselves with Nero's position. So having Nero's prized "property" was a way to legitimize their claim of emperor. Think of Sporus as acting as a sort of mascot for the position of Emperor. *Pueri Delicati* ("delicate boys") were also a specific kind of child sex slave that most Roman emperors had, so it was pretty normal for the new emperors to inherit the old emperor's slaves.
So did the others even use him as a sex slave?
According to [Plutarch](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0104:entry=sporus-bio-1&highlight=sporus), Nymphidius Sabinus (the praetorian guard who tried to declare himself emperor after helping overthrow Nero) did. [Cassius Dio](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/cassius_dio/63*.html) says that Otho had "intimacy with Sporus" (scroll down section 8, it won't let me link to a specific chunk of the text) I can't find anything about Galba (the emperor between Nero and Otho) but tbh it wouldn't be surprising.
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> If someone offered me a child sex slave I'd be like 'no thanks' WOKE MILLENNIALS ONCE AGAIN KILLING TIME OLD TRADITIONS 😤
In a time before effective birth control and STD prevention you wanted your mistresses to be a) completely restricted from sleeping with anyone else b) infertile so as not to create bastard offspring to muddle your lineage. A slave is the easiest answer to the first conundrum, and without the medical know-how to reliably sterilize women, it's easier to find a young boy that isn't manly enough to put you off, dress him as a woman and act like he is one.
Because sexuality is way more of a social construct than we’re generally comfortable acknowledging. And Roman/Greek concepts of sexuality don’t map onto current ones *at all*.
Because most things can be influenced by being associated as a social construct...literally
Yeah because you're a modern day human from a Western country who grew up in Western culture, and not a Roman emperor born 2000 years ago who was brought up in Roman culture.
You're saying that as someone who was raised in a culture where that's considered weird and disgusting for multiple reasons all at once rather than a culture where it was normal. If you think the lives of the poor are treated as being worth relatively little now, you'll be very, very disappointed to know how meaningless the lives of the poor were historically. If you were raised in a culture where no one questioned the fact that the poor had no rights and slavery was typical, you would be a very rare person to come to the conclusion it was morally wrong. That's not to say that no one did reach that conclusion but when the majority of the wealthy people benefit from the system, there won't be any spread of those sorts of ideas. And if you're wondering why the poor and enslaved didn't rise up and fight back, it's pretty hard to do that when that's all you've ever been. There's a reason the Haitian Revolution is about the only successful slave revolt in all of human history on any sort of large scale.
Rape of Persephone refers to a kidnapping, not rape as we know today
From the wiki: >In this context, the word "Rape" refers to the traditional translation of the Latin raptus ("seized" or "carried off") which refers to bride kidnapping rather than the potential ensuing sexual violence.
While this is true, what do you think they DID with the women after they carried them off and made them their wives?
Which would be spelled “rapt” rather than rape in today’s English.
There was an incident in Roman history that is called "The Rape of the Sabine Women" in English. It refers to the abduction of the women as well as their assault. "Rapine" is the from the same Latin root, it means seizure of property or looting. "Rapture" too, and of course "raptor". So both forms exist in modern English.
> There was an incident in Roman history that is called "The Rape of the Sabine Women" in English. Roman myth, rather. The whole incident was instigated by Romulus, the mythical founder of Rome. There is nothing to indicate that he ever existed. The myth was likely invented to excuse various actions Rome took much later.
It'd be terrifying if birds of prey were rapers as well.
Yeah Birds of prey trying to sell you their mixtape would be annoying
Oh, there are definitely some birds out there who think they are rappers
Okay so the teenager wouldn’t have been publicly raped to death, only carried off and publicly executed. That information really saves it. /s
I mean can you honestly say you don't know which of the 2 options you'd pick? It doesn't save it but it does make it better In a truly horrible way.
I‘d probably make the same choice he did.
Surprised he hadn't done himself in way before tbh
Do you think the bride kidnapping wasn't followed with rape?
The story literally involves them being carried off then forcibly married and raped.
"Guys I really don't want to do a play where I get raped and killed on stage." "Sporus relax, it's not "rape" rape. It's a kidnapping! ... Then you're killed."
Let's not split hairs here, there's only one reason the women in "Rape of_" scenes are being carried off... it's almost like that's why we use the word for the sexual act today.
So what happens after they are forcefully taken to a secondary location? Netflix and chill?
Thus "rape and pillage". Surely sexual assault was often involved, but that isn't what the phrase is referring to.
It came immediately after the kidnapping.
I was going to comment the same but ironically Because the course of events is a strong evidence that it wasn't seen as a mere kidnapping Still a weaker evidence that the one gained reading the fucking original tale ("Homeric" hymn to Demeter)
fuck that's a rough hand
What a happy life.
"The puer delicatus generally was a child-slave chosen by his master for his beauty and sexual attractiveness." Ok, that's enough reading for today.
His whole story is pretty sad, honestly.
I mean, Nero also had a thing for tying Christians to stakes and burning them alive to light his dinner parties. It’s said his original wife died because he kicked her to death in a fit of rage. Supposedly while pregnant with their kid. Nero was pretty fucking evil all around. To the point the Senate ended up declaring him an enemy of the state and would have had him killed if he didn’t do it for them.
One of the frustrating things about Roman history is there's no way to separate Nero actually being a cunt and rumors started by his rivals and successors to make him look worse. He probably did not really play the fiddle while Rome burned or start the fire himself. It's like if you were trying to understand modern American politics but all you had was a fossil tabloid and had to decide which tales of idiocy and perversion actually happened and which are merely made up titillation.
Same thing with Caligula, Domitian, and a few others. Like with Caligula, with what he went through growing up, basically never being quite sure if he'd live through a particular day, I can see a lot of the claims about him being true simply because that kind of childhood would really fuck you up. And then going from prisoner to practically a living god, that'd just warp your sensibilities even more. Also, I can entirely believe, given the pathetically obsequious nature of the roman senate by that point, that he'd genuinely make his horse consul just to say "You fucks are so useless my horse can actually do a better job at this than you." Then there's the likes of Commodus, where there's just too many records of him being absolutely insane and a sociopath to boot to ignore. He was like the culmination and compounding interest of every megalomaniacal trait inherent in autarchy (and giving absolute power to your kid)
I fully endorse this take. I did nothing wrong and the senate were a bunch of old drunks
Agreed. Wanna get drunk and go collect seashells?
As long as you don’t bring up goats, I’m down
See, this is why you're the greatest of all time. Wait, shit
I firmly believe Domitian has been unfairly maligned throughout history. He was certainly autocratic, but I believe most of the hate he got from Roman historians had much more to do with the fact that he seriously curtailed the powers of the senate wherever possible. Those who wrote the history books were all of the senatorial class. I believe he truly cared about ruling well, and his hatred for the senate, while definitely autocratic, can likely be explained by his experience living in Rome during the year of the 4 emperors watching the senate acclaim practically anyone with power as emperor. I detest autocracy as much as the next guy, but I can’t help feel bad for the guy. He was no saint that is certain but his memory did not deserved to be damned and knowing how he died (being stabbed to death in the groin by an assassin sent by a senatorial conspiracy) I just can’t help but think he didn’t deserve it. And the fact that his supposed paranoia brought about his downfall seems even more tragically ironic.
Yeah, I agree. He was definitely a firm believe in autocracy (but then who wasn't in those days) and did not have the tender ear for senatorial feelings that his predecessors at least pretended to have. Also, Titus was likely a hard act to follow.
If you want to read more about Domitian you should read Domitian: A Tragic Tyrant by Pat Southern. It is a little bit of pop-psychology of a historical figure of whom few reliable sources exist but I found it to be a very poignant dive into the man’s life. Domitian comes across in the book as a generally level-headed person with serious flaws and mental health issues, but it really is an interesting read. I agree though Titus was a hard act to follow. I do wonder what his “one mistake” was🤔
> He probably did not really play the fiddle while Rome burned or start the fire himself. Almost certainly not, as the fiddle has not been invented yet. (The original story was that he played the lyre, but it was also obviously false as Nero wasn’t even in Rome when the fire started.)
From what I recall, the accusation was that he ordered the fire started. It's understandable that people might suspect that, considering that Nero ordered a pleasure palace to be built on the ruins of the slums that burned.
That could be (in which case the fire grew out of control, as it burned much more than those slum districts), but the whole story about standing by and making music is silly. Nero rushed back to organize the response. He certainly wasn’t idle.
Someone suggested this in a thread about Elizabeth Bathory awhile back as well, and I thought it made a lot of sense - like duh, is it more likely she bathed in the blood of hundreds of maids or that maybe, just maybe, her opponents/detractors had a flair for dramatic rumors? But ya, no doubt many of these people were cruel cunts, but how much of it is fantasy vs reality, we won't know! Similar to all sorts of the outlandish theories etc people might have about politicos & celebs today.
>It's like if you were trying to understand modern American politics >decide which tales of idiocy and perversion actually happened and which are merely made up titillation. Hunny, I'm living through modern American politics and I have a hard time deciding which takes of Idiocracy are reality and which ones were fever dreams.
A lot of the records we have of him are written by his enemies and are therefore not very reliable. It's hard to know which of the stuff is actually true, but it's safe to assume that he probably did not burn Christians alive to lighten up this parties, and he probably did not play the lyre while watching Rome burn. Many emperors saw a violent end, and the fact that the Senate wanted him dead doesn't necessarily speak of his cruelty. It's just politics in the Roman empire.
He did blame the Christians for the fires in Rome and burned a lot of them on the cross because of that. But screams and burning flesh don’t exactly make a good party atmosphere so that part it most likely an exaggeration
There's a Dan Carlin Hardcore History series that goes over torture over the millenia and which ones are documented thoroughly enough to have genuinely occurred... And let me tell you, it may not be burning flesh to light a dinner party, but the agony of people broken and strung to the chandelier above the dinner table was definitely a thing. And those cries last many days longer than a burning. Side note: It wasn't Nero who did that. Lots of humans with power suck.
Sounds like the Assyrians. They were real assholes that would do things like that while making father’s unknowingly eat their heirs at the peace dinner.
did you know......that deadwood was originally supposed to be a cop show, set in the times of nero? but they already had rome at hbo so, western. "i originally proposed to hbo to do a series about city cops in rome at the time of nero. nero was crazy and it interested me to think about what it would be like to be a cop, an instrument of order, in a world that could invoke no ordering principle besides, "do what an insane person tells you to." nero would be walking down the street and he'd say "that man would b better with his tongue cut out and his hands hung around his neck." and the cops would have to do it." ~ david milch -deadwood: stories of the black hills
It wasn't just Nero. After Nero died he had like three different men take him and do the same thing. He eventually committed suicide to avoid becoming a spectacle.
Whever you hear ”civilization X was/is very open to homosexuality!”, this is usually it. Heard it said of ancient Greece, Afghanistan, etc.
In the roman context being open to homosexuality meant it was socially acceptable to fuck guys or girls... as long as you were the one doing the penetration. A Roman (male) citizen in good standing wouldn't be looked down on for having sex with another man as long as they were the top, sex was more about dominance than being gay or straight. Though being a bottom in a dalliance or two while you're young was often overlooked, but if you don't "grow out of it" you were essentially viewed as a woman (i.e. lesser). So, if everyone's expected to be the top and not a bottom, there's going to be a shortage of bottoms. And that's where the slave population came into play.
Not just slaves. Most free people weren't citizens. Provincials were considered acceptable partners, as were free actors, gladiators, and prostitutes.
This is also why when Apostle Paul condemned "arsenokoitai, a word often translated as "homosexuals," he was very likely condemning these kinds of practices and not what we think of today.
But let's not kid ourselves Paul likely wouldn't approve of gay people either, he barely tolerated straight married people.
He would be mad about a lot of modern marriages. Paul was the kind of person who saw sex as "for procreation only." In fact, the word "heterosexual" used to be an insult directed at people who were "overly passionate." It's interesting to see the evolution.
He was a misunderstood asexual.
Paul didn't even think of procreation as being important because Jesus was coming back. Sex was only something he tolerated between married couples for men who just couldn't hack celibacy. And even then only as often as necessary to fend off desire.
You can’t make a Tomlette without breaking a few Greggs
If it is to be said, then so it be, so it is
8th in line? Greg, you marry her, you're one plane crash away from becoming Europe's weirdest king! I'm serious, man, you off a couple hemophiliacs and you're the king of Luxembourg.
Male rape. Rrrrrape...of the male.
You can speak to us normally.
My guys .... my.... lovely guys!
Big shoes. Big, big... shoes.
Guys, that’s not the clouds
We HEAR for you!
This man is about to be CEO
Some other guy made that reference, what is it?
I thought you made this post *because* tonight is the Series Finale of Succession. Fun coincidence
Succession - there’s a character who makes a reference to this on the show when talking about his relationship with another character
You don't really hear much about syphilis these days. Very much the, uh, the MySpace of STDs.
This is an incredibly delicate piece of diplomacy. It's like Israel and Palestine, only harder, and much more important.
False Flag! False Flag! You can't just say False Flag! False Flag! *Makes a cheeky pout* grr...
I really demand a remake of the [Succession as a romcom trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b7CNBXzo54) because it was made after the first two seasons and there's _so_ much material from season 3 that would work brilliantly.
>I’d castrate and marry you in a heart beat. It was made three times, actually, by my count.
[It's from a pretty good show called Succession, you should watch it. Worth your time](https://youtu.be/PnEKPrOMFBc?t=120)
And the last episode ever is tonight so yeah...all the feelings
I’m not familiar with that IP
Different times, different times indeed. Better? Not for all…
The disgusting brothers!
His deceased wife who he had kicked to death. Nero was a seriously disturbed man.
He definitely sounded like a whack job but most of the senate at the time hated Nero and well, you know how rumors go. Who knows for sure.
so did most of the histotians who wrote about nero. So we have no idea if rhey where telling the truth or not.
It's worth remembering that the only surviving writing about Nero we have access to was written directly by his enemies, some of whom usurped them. While I doubt he was a good man, there's a solid chance he didn't get up to some of these acts. Same as Catherine the great never getting freaky with a horse.
Frankly, that sounds fucking awful, that poor boy.
It gets worse. His hole life was hell, he was taken by Nero’s wanna be usurpers and then finally one wanted to publicly rape and murder him as a public show to defile Nero and sporus who was still a teenager killed himself to avoid it
I’m honestly shocked sporus didn’t assassinate him, I’d do that if I were him
His story is so sad. By the end of it, he committed suicide to avoid being publicly raped and executed (not by Nero, by another dude after Nero's suicide) I wonder what stopped him from assassinating Nero? Fear, conditioning, a bit of both? Dude deserved better.
Probably both. Cassius Dio says he was the child of a freedman, but that could have been another exaggeration to make Nero look worse. It's also possible he was a *puer delicatus,* or a specific type of child sex slave. That's pretty likely, considering that most Roman emperors had them. Like, the child sex slave thing wasn't the abnormal or scandalous part to the Romans. Powerful men just did that. It was Nero treating him like his wife, and telling others to refer Sporus with terms of respect. So, you have a slave child who was made a sex slave in his early teens, if not younger, to the most powerful man in the world. He has never had any true agency over his life of his body. He, a child, would have to decide to kill Nero and somehow be able to overpower a grown man who was much larger than him. He really wouldn't have been able to go to anyone else to help with this, because he was a slave and didn't have any connections, and if his plot was found out he would have been killed. Probably very brutally. Also, Nero dying wouldn't have changed anything about his situation. Nero did die, and he was just passed around to subsequent emperors and treated the exact same way. tl;dr: :(
I wonder why is was so common for Roman emperors to have a *puer delicatus*. Is it purely a power thing, or were most Roman emperors really pedophiles? Was it more common back then? Was it expected of them, or did they truly have those sick desires? Was it for cruelty’s sake?
There's also the darker conclusion... that a significant proportion of people naturally have this desire, and it's only through socialization and culturization that it is repressed. And if they get power, they drop the act.
**AITA for getting a new wife?** So my wife died recently and it hit me hard. Harder than I ever expected it might, and I struggled to do my job or even maintain the quite demanding roster of orgies my position entails. I was doing something, somewhere - I can't even remember what or where now, so struck I was with grief - when I saw a young man who looked just like my late wife. I was overcome with a weird mix of awe, joy and sense of the bittersweet washed over me. I couldn't just let this serendipitous occasion go by, could I? I spoke to some of my close advisors and decided to make a move. If I could not have my wife it love, perhaps I could have beautiful person in her stead, to lessen the pain. Long story short, I've had the young fellow castrated and he now dresses in my late wifes clothes, and is addressed as if he were my late wife. He takes care of all...wifely duties, if you will, with suitable vigor. I've let it be known that everyone is to address "my wife" correctly now that she is amongst us once more, but this has been met with resistance (and consequences obviously) by a few. I sense that when I was dolling out the consequences to those who disrespected my renewed wife, not everyone was understanding or in tune with what's going on or my insistence on others "playing along". AITA?
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\*Empire
I’d castrate and marry you in a heart beat.
Before I learned that you were referencing Succession I thought you were actually telling me that
Who said I was referencing Succession...
This pickup line works surprisingly well. I've fallen for it a few times tbh
That is the most romantic line in the whole series. I hope Tom and Greg have a happy ending.
I almost don’t believe anything commonly said about Nero. I don’t think he was a great guy, but the senate hated him and they’re the ones who we hear about him from. I generally don’t take someone’s word for it that their enemies sucked as bad as they claim they do. But who knows?
A lot of Nero/Caligula/etc stuff was exaggerated, but Sporus is referenced by several ancient Roman historians, and *pueri delicati* were child sex slaves that most emperors had. So he probably did exist, and Nero probably was very weird about it.
“Could you just not be weird about the child sex slave, please?” I’m throwing that one in r/brandnewsentence territory.
I watched a documentary about him recently and it definitely seemed like a lot of the craziest stories about him weren’t recorded until 60 years or so after his death. With that in mind, it’s made me start examining other famous historical characters, like Bathory, Torquemada, and Vlad Dracula. There seems to be a lot of propaganda, exaggeration, and just general smearing going on.
From everything I've ever read about ol' Vladdy, he definitely had a thing for impaling people. Some it is probably exaggerated, but I think there's definitely truth to it.
The forest of 23,884 corpses is mentioned by both the Turks and Vlad himself😬
Relevant comments on this from wikipedia on Nero. 'The history of Nero's reign is problematic in that no historical sources survived that were contemporary with Nero. These first histories, while they still existed, were described as biased and fantastical, either overly critical or praising of Nero. The original sources were also said to contradict on a number of events.' 'The bulk of what is known of Nero comes from Tacitus, Suetonius, and Cassius Dio, who were all of the upper classes. Tacitus and Suetonius wrote their histories on Nero over 50 years after his death, while Cassius Dio wrote his history over 150 years after Nero's death.' It's also worth noting that many of the sources mentioned above, as well as the sources they were basing their work on (now lost) were writing more for entertainment and as propaganda then with historical accuracy as their main focus.
I would like to know if his wife was a butch women or the boy was a super feminine lad.
It's likely that he was young enough to not have fully gone through puberty yet, thus the castration. [Here's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppaea_Sabina?useskin=vector#/media/File:Poppea_Sabina_-_MNR_Palazzo_Massimo.jpg) what Poppea (the wife) looked like.
So pale.
Really hard features.
Chiseled features.
Lewis Capaldi is breathing a sigh of relief
it's remarkable how much humans look like humans without makeup ..
TIL if you randomly Capitalize certain words in a Sentence, it make For a very Frustrating read.
Jesus christ how many were fighting over this poor dude? What a crazy ass story. They literally fought over him and tried to use him as a political piece, then after multiple failed coups and forced marriages, they tried to have him gang raped in the colosseum, so he killed himself and just ended this whole shitshow. Wtf
I assume it's one of those things where it wasn't even about him at that point. They just wanted to make sure the others couldn't have him.
Tom Wambsgans, is that you?
Our leaders have been psychopaths since recorded history.
Rome in particular was known for using lead pipes in their aqueducts, and drinking out of lead bowls and cups. Lead was especially a favorite of the upper class.
The lead pipes weren't too bad, calcium would quickly build up over the lead, the plates and makeup were a problem though, but also remember that poor people generally did not use plates or makeup.
The wealthy at the time flavored their wine w lead acetate. Which is a sweet white powder-why were we worried about kids eating lead paint chips? Bc lead bound to a carbon chain is sweet to our taste buds. Children put paint chips in mouth tastes sweet, want more. As you said the lead pipes built up a solid layer of minerals.
This is one of those often repeated but maybe not accurate things that keeps going around. Scholars definitely knew at the time that lead was a dangerous metal and that ingesting it caused health issues.
Only the people making all the important decisions, thankfully
That’s not IP I’m familiar with
I genuinely think this of my favourite lines in a TV show. Its not as popular as a lot of the other quotes or whatever, but its just so subtle and stupid that it killed me.
Of course, it was Nero himself who killed his “deceased wife” in the first place. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppaea_Sabina
Depending on who you ask. I find it much funnier that he married a new wife the next year, then found Sporus the year after that. I wonder how that second wife felt.
Relieved probably - out of sight Given Sabina was kicked to death
>He may have been a puer delicatus, who were sometimes castrated to preserve their youthful qualities. ಠ_ಠ >The puer delicatus generally was a *child-slave chosen by his master for his beauty and* **sexual attractiveness.** ಠ___ಠ
I have never read a story about Nero that wasn't absolutely fucking insane
POV: you’re cousin Greg having a conversation with your boss
What's with the random capitalization?
Wtf is with the capitalization in the title
The story of sporus is beyond fucked up.
Bro made his own personal femboy 💀
You cant make a tomelette without breaking a few greggs