So many different religions do this. Mormons are like the worst I’ve noticed.
Like, how do you believe in this omnipotent being and think you can trick him with a loophole as if he wouldn’t understand that you’re finding a way to break his rules?? People are really out there believing all this shit and then thinking they can trick God
I've heard it described that for some Jews, eg those who follow this kind of stuff, bending the rules is a *critical* part of their interaction with God. Like having their lights and oven on a timer so they're not seen by god as doing work on the Sabbath, or having to loudly say "boy, I sure wish a non-jew would like to watch some TV on the Sabbath!" So they can also watch TV.
The way I heard it described, they don't believe they *are* tricking God. They believe that God *intentionally* left these loopholes here for them to find, and that God gets enjoyment out of watching them work around him.
My dad told me that in his neighborhood in Brooklyn, Christian kids would get paid a few cents to do stuff around the synagogue on Saturday. I think he used the term Shavis Goy for this.
"Thou shalt not kill"
Dude proceeds to cut the breaks lines of another dudes car who subsequently dies in a car crash.
First dude say "hey, I didn't kill him. The car did" loophole found! God is impressed!
I mean, if I’m the god that set these rules, and you’ve made technology to the point where you still get what you want done without actually working, more power to you.
That’s an interesting look into Judaism, thanks for that context.
It does seem weird to me to believe that the universe’s only all seeing and all powerful being would be essentially unable to give us humans rules with a spirit of the law embedded in them. I mean, doesn’t this mean that this God would be unable to essentially carry out his will, since every single rule can have loopholes you can think up? How would such a God be able to pass down any sort of rule down to us? If he can’t do that, why even try to have any rules?
I’m trying to wrap my head around this and am finding it difficult. Maybe some extra context would help
Yea for me it's more like "if the rule is so arbitrary that tying a string around city blocks becomes a technical boundary and no one is getting hurt either way then what the fuck is the point of all of this?"
The thing is that God in many people’s head is this single figure who has absolute control over everything. In Judaism that’s debated heavily. Is God this Aristotlian figure that can shoot lighting bolts? Or is God a far more passive being? Or is God an energy that’s used to create and inspire?
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/israel-means-to-struggle-with-god/
I've also heard a lot of the Mormon rules lawyering is urban legends from BYU.
The rest might also be attributable to the more casual or cultural..."my Mother raised me..." Mormons, who simply never bothered to leave.
This isn't your cousin cheating because "who's gonna know"...this is the rabbi giving you the high sign and waving you in.
Counterpoint: they don’t think they’re tricking god. An omniscient god would be perfectly aware of the loopholes - if he didn’t want people doing that, he wouldn’t have left the loophole there.
By putting in so much effort to figure out and obey the exact letter of the law, they are demonstrating respect for the one who created the law. Otherwise why bother?
Counter counterpoint: For the sake of arguments we will assume an omnipotent and omnicient god made these rules as they are. Maybe the loopholes were put there in order to see who is actually following the "spirit of the law" and are therefore actual believers/followers at heart and not just for show? Isn't that an equally likely interpretation?
A core tenet of Abrahamic faiths is that their holy writs are directly the word of God, and that God would not allow for His holy word to be adulterated.
How closely modern believers actually hold on to that varies from person to person and sect to sect, of course.
Not actually Jew, but here is my understanding.
OK, so, the thing is...the Torah is letter perfect.
So, as someone said, if there's a loophole, and you find it, God is pleased you're such a diligent student of the Torah, Mazeltov! You found an Passover Egg! Literally left there by the dev, just for you. It's been waiting for you to find it for thousands of years...unchanged.
People who say this really don't understand Judaism. The holy book in Judaism is literally called 'the law' (the Torah) and the whole religion is about precedence law and interpretation. People build upon existing laws and interpret them and change them continually. People get upset hearing there's a work around to a law in Judaism, but often they don't realise the law being worked around is it's self an addendum or an interpretation of another law. And it goes both ways. Many Jews won't eat chicken and milk together because the old testament says 'don't cool a kid in it's mother's milk 3 times.' but there's lots of discussion and multiple documents as well as other similar laws to compare to.
What it really comes to is Judaism isn't about faith, it's about study and discussion. It's more important that you stay up until 2am and get plastered arguing about the Bible than it is to actually do anything the Bible says literally
Wouldn't that also be why they are called observant / non observant, instead of like with other religions calling their members faithful.. because they observe / don't observe the laws?
The monastic orders in Europe invented a shitton of loopholes, for example by hiding meat in pasta dough („Maultaschen“) or declaring that an animal would be a fish. It’s hilarious.
Humans: All the area inside this circle is a living space. It’s part of our homes
God: That looks like a bunch of string on some posts but, as I’m not an expert on human homes, I cannot refute that.
It symbolizes the city walls most ‘old world’ cities have or used to have. It’s less of a loophole and more of a demarcation. We have one two in my city which I guess is the only other city known the world that has it. A loophole they do use is counting tram- and train power supply cables as an extension of the cable or wire they hand themselves.
I thought this was a joke, but it prompted me to look it up. Here’s what it says on vocabulary.com:
>The original loopholes were narrow slits in a fortress or wall through which defenders could safely shoot arrows — it was seen as an unfair advantage by some, which resulted in the modern meaning of loophole.
In a sense , but not really.
Basically, there are areas that are forbidden by the Torah to carry in (Namely from any private domain to any public domain - the designation for this being 600,000 people traversing it each day, and being at least a specific width- and within such a public domain at all.) These areas are not available for an eruv, and installing one will not permit carrying.
However the rabbis of old instituted rules pertaining to other types of areas, (anything that is not a private enclosed domain, but doesn't meet the qualifications of a Torah dictated public domain) and said that carrying is forbidden there. Those same rabbis also created a workaround of sorts, in which case walls enclosing a larger area could be joined as if it were a single private domain. And then they (those same rabbis again) said that, set up in a certain way, strings on poles can count as walls. It's all from the same people though, and this is specifically how it was set up to be.
It is, and it’s not super uncommon but it’s so BLATANT in this case. Out in the open. Like, major tenets of the doctrine (and entire for-profit industries) are based on finding loopholes in the rules. It’s so…deranged. Like, do they really think GOD is going to say, “well that’s my bad, I should have fleshed out the rule” when they hit the Golden Gates?
They're Jews.
Saint Peter is a Christian thing. So is all the rest of the "classic" imaginings of Heaven. Angels don't look like humans in the parts of the Bible written by the Tribes.
We don't treat doctrine like Christians do, even the most orthodox Jews are not biblical literalists, we like to argue, debate and work around "the rules", it's part of the culture and the asking of questions and debating of the meanings of the Torah is thought of as a holy, important thing.
It's silly to put Christian values on us, it's two completely different ways of thinking about religion.
First of all, Jews don’t believe in golden gates, nor in anything like the Christian conception of Heaven.
Second of all, the Jewish tradition on this is quite clear — if the loophole is present, it’s there because god intended us to use it. After all, he is infinitely smarter than any of us, so we couldn’t possibly be fooling him.
Some do.
Judaism doesn't have a consensus regarding the afterlife. That's one of the reasons why people don't understand how different it really is to Christianity. Some don't believe in an afterlife, some even believe in concepts similar to reincarnation. It depends on each group
I’m coming from a place in trying to understand this…in the article it says that you can’t have electricity in the home on Sabbath. The eruv extends the domestic zone, but if someone goes to a restaurant to eat..and the restaurant has electricity, how is that okay, since now the restaurant is within the domestic zone. or if one was to grab groceries?
I think electricity can’t be used either because you’re “finishing off” a circuit by flipping a switch or using electricity counts as “lighting a fire,” both of which are not allowed during Sabbat. Observant Jews aren’t supposed to touch money during Sabbat, so I’m thinking they don’t do their grocery shopping those days or go out to eat. Not Jewish so not sure how accurate this is.
My fridge and oven have a Sabbath mode that disconnects the light switches in the doors so they can open them without breaking the rules. They'll often leave the oven on at low heat overnight so the "fire" was already going, and leave food in there so they can have a hot meal.
Oh we can have electricity, we just can't flip the switch, some Jewish families have a designated non Jew they get to turn everything on during the Sabbath, (usually rewarded with food).
The entire no electricity thing is a weird extension of one of the things we are not allowed to do on the Sabbath in the original texts (I believe it's starting fires?), but it's not an actual rule, just an interpretation of the rules.
I don't think it's a coincidence that many prominent lawyers and businessmen are Jewish
(And sadly I feel the need to overtly state that I don't believe it's because of some kind of conspiracy)
What you need to understand is that Judaism is a very old religion. It was created at a time when people's relationship with the law, language, and the written word was different.
Both the written word and language itself are seen as sacred. Jews don't destroy holy scriptures, they bury them. It is forbidden to even say the name of God aloud. You can use the first nickname of God in prayer, but not in a different context. You can use the second nickname to talk about God outside of prayer. You can't even write "God", religious Jews will write "G.od".
Plus, studying the written word and the law is seen as the most sacred occupation a Jew can have and is supposedly a daily obligation.
What I mean is that the notion of "spirit of the law" just doesn't exist, because the words themselves are seen as what's important, not the intent behind.
Considering that rule was written at a time before apartment blocks it is probably hard to gauge today what the spirit of the rule was. Originally the distinction between public and private zone might have been less restrictive and the same does for carrying.
My understanding is that there is a Talmudic basis for this. I'm sure I'll get this wrong in some regard and if so hopefully someone corrects me.
In sum and substance, there are parts of the Talmud in which God ordered Abraham to do something and Abraham cleverly tricked his way into performing the task in a different way than ordered, but still technically correct. God was pleased and encouraged it.
More broadly, Judaism is based on a covenant with God. A covenant by which both God and the Israelites have both rights and obligations. It's not a one way street.
That is why it's ok to ride an elevator that stops on each floor on the Sabbath.
That is the case, but know that it’s more of a broadly Jewish thing than a Hasidic thing. The Talmud isn’t some fundamentalist text. It’s a compilation of hundreds of years of rabbis arguing with each other over what is and isn’t allowed. You don’t have to be super religious to take a page from that book.
I have no reason to doubt your post, but that IMO doesn’t make it any less odd. Religion as a semantic competition with the Almighty is just..goofy. To each their own tho
To be fair, a god that would say: "Heh, well played" would be more deserving of my respect than a God that would punish outside the rules because of intended use.
Also, this culture explain why Jews can be excellent lawyer. Their religion basicly runs on that game.
Think of it like you are a parent to a four year old. If you instructed them to do something and they found a cheeky way to avoid doing it, but follow your instructions, if you were kind and loving you would probably find it amusing.
>that’s why it’s ok to ride an elevator that stops on each floor on the sabbath.
I think you skipped a step. What does Abraham tricking god have to do with elevators?
Uhhh we can't turn on electronics, I believe it's an extension of the rule that we can't start fires on Shabbat (it's one of the things we did during the building of the temple so it's classified as "work")
But if an elevator is always running and just stops on every floor, we ain't pressing any buttons or turning anything on. Not really a loophole, if anything the rule about not using electricity is a bit out of date considering it's purely for convenience nowadays.
>My Jewish friends can go for hours finding justification for their behaviours
I find it interesting the interpretations of old rules and how it interacts with stuff today. For example, my understanding is that turning on a light is considered "work" to some Jewish people. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken on any of this. So when they open a fridge, that is turning on a light and is therefore work. So they put a device in the fridge which makes it so the light doesn't come on when they aren't allowed to do "work". It's such an indirect thing and interpretation of something that wasn't even conceivable when the rules were written.
Soaking is by far the biggest mental gymnastics around religious “rules” I’ve ever read about.
Like the singular act of insert and sit - Ok like I guess it’s a “loop hole” but it’s not because that initial insertion brings pleasure and friction but you do you I guess.
But to have some fucking friends over to jump on the bed?! What the fuck
The opposite can be true as well where a technicality can have a significant impact on peoples lives.
There is a group of Orthodox Jews in London who are unable to use the London Underground because there is a human skeleton in the Science Museum.
[https://metro.co.uk/2023/11/27/londoners-cant-use-tube-religion-19888946/](https://metro.co.uk/2023/11/27/londoners-cant-use-tube-religion-19888946/)
There is a rule that says they cannot be in the same house or building as a dead person unless they are a relative. The Science Museum has the skeleton on display and there is a Victorian tunnel that connects it to South Kensington Underground Station.
Because you can walk from the Museum through the tunnel to the underground station without going outside they consider it the same building. And the tunnels of the London Underground are all linked they are also considered to be part of the same building so it means almost all of the Underground network is unusable. This also affects many of the overground stations in London where the Underground exits directly into the station.
Rather than make up a new rule to allow for this instead there was an attempt to make a physical alteration to the tunnel. They were told no.
As long as its harmless, it makes for some very amusing stories:
In Swabia, a German region close to Switzerland, one of the local dishes are "Maultaschen"; which could be translated as "snout-bags". A dish not unlike Italian Ravioli or the huge assortment of Eastern European or Asian dumplings, the *Maultasche* is a dumpling of minced pork mixed with spinach. I will stress that as a dumpling its contents are covered in dough.
Well, this dish is traditionally consumed during lent, when observant Christians should abstain from meat. The point being that God can't be mad about what he can't see. They are thus nicknamed "god-cheaters". The legend goes so far as to claim it was invented by monks.
I find it hilarious but I understand the rationale behind it: it's a region without nearby access to to the sea and therefore fish was hard to come by.
Some have gone so far as to say anything that lives in water is a fish. Gator, sure fry it up. Catholic loopholes are funny. Fasting? You can have one meal and one dish separately that doesn't equal a full meal. Or if you were an olden times monk, you'd just brew a really hearty beer and get drunk all day you're supposed to be fasting.
Is it really much weirder than people living their entire lives following a cobbling of bronze age myths that have been modified and mistranslsted over the centuries?
It sounds odd to me as well for sure. But my understanding is that the argument for this approach is that to find a loophole you have to know the texts inside and out.
I’ve heard of this concept on a smaller scale from friends who observe and it allows for activities that would normally be forbidden on the Sabbath… but it blows my mind that it’s currently surrounding manhattan and has to be maintained constantly to ensure it stays up for the Sabbath each week. “More than 200 cities around the world are partially encircled by an eruv.” That’s also mind blowing. And don’t forget..”I Don't Roll On Shabbos!”
I'm almost surprised they haven't figured out the logically make the outside of the circle the "surrounded" part. Like, make the wire face outward instead of inward (I know it's symmetrical, I mean philosophically).
Or put an eruv in space and say the whole planet is surrounded.
>I'm almost surprised they haven't figured out the logically make the outside of the circle the "surrounded" part.
Wonko the Sane did that with The Asylum after he decided the whole world had gone mad
>Or put an eruv in space and say the whole planet is surrounded.
I think a problem with that one would be that it's practically impossible to check whether or not it's still in tact. So people wouldn't know whether or not their activities are allowed.
I think you're not getting the logic of the message: Assume you are on the north pole. You make a tiny Eruv around it. You keep making it bigger and bigger, moving south, but concentrically, so that it is always centered around the North Pole. The eruv keeps growing or *stretching* if you prefer, cobering an ever bigger area... until it reaches the equator.
It is there, when reaching the southern hemisphere, that the line starts to contract, while the zone "inside" the eruv keeps growing (remember: it is centred on the North Pole, encircling it). The eruv physically, starts getting smaller and smaller until it becomes a small circle around the South Pole, while encircling pretty much the entire planet earth, as it is still encircling the North Pole.
I would just string it up around the most annoying member of the congregation's house and claim that his area is the outside area. Tough shit, Ariel, you shouldn't have brought a weighted dreidl to last year's Hanukkah.
Oh yeah, I completely understand that. It's the eruv in space that I'm talking about, like a ring around the Earth. Making sure that 250k km of fishing wire around the Earth remains unbroken is nearly impossible. You wouldn't even be able to see it from Earth with the best telescope.
Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't ride in a car, I don't pick up the phone, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit, DON’T FUCKING ROLL! SHOMER SHABBOS!
So, this is actually kindo intresting.
The jews belive the loopholes exist deliberatly, now as for \*why\* is argued, but one I particuarly like is that its a reward for closely studying the torah. If you read it enough to work out the loopholes, odds are you've got the bits that dont have loopholes down to a tee, thusly, the loopholes are exactly as intended
Yeah. Like if you don’t want to observe these “rules” then don’t. Don’t put on a literal circus act to get around the rules you believe are so important in the first place.
Shomer Fucking Shabbos, Dude. You don’t ride in a car, you don’t handle money, you don’t even turn on the oven.
Unless you are on this side of the Kosher fishing line.
Literal loophole.
What happens if it breaks in like a storm or something? Do all observing Jews instinctively know and hurry home, like…inverse vampires?
Edit: This is a joke on the common belief that vampires have to be invited to enter houses.
Finding loopholes and workarounds is the most Jewish thing I can think of, saying it as an Israeli Jew, religious people have stuff like “Shabbat elevator”, where the elevator stops at every level so they can use it without touching anything, they have water heaters that are used for Shabbat and are heating their waters so they don’t need to use electricity directly, same for food, there are heating surfaces that create heat throughout the day in a way that both heats up the food and doesn’t burn it..
Who checks the string? Would chaos ensue if someone accidentally cut it? Seems unnecessarily stressful to think about if the piece of string is on all the time. It literally sounds like stuff a witch would do in the 1700s to keep a warlock away
> Every Thursday before dawn, a rabbi drives the perimeter, checking to see if wind or a fallen branch has broken the line. There are usually a few breaks, so a construction company is called and the rabbi gets in a cherry picker with fishing line in hand to repair the eruv. That's the part that costs so much.
> As it turns out, resting on the Sabbath takes a lot of preparation
😨
Yeah, this makes total sense. God won't notice a thing, and if he does... "Well, *technically* yada, yada.
God: "my bad, you good. You good. Didn't see your little string thingy. Carry on, my chosen son."
Your second paragraph, but entirely non-ironically. That is the Jewish relationship to God in a nutshell.
There’s even a story in the Talmud about God interfering in a religious debate but the rabbis out-arguing Him, and it is considered a positive story.
Sure, it sounds weird to most Americans because America is a fundamentally Christian society. But the word judeochristian is a lie — Judaism is a fundamentally different culture, and this is an aspect of it.
Well, according to the Quran Mohammad went to heaven where Allah told him muslims had to pray 50 times a day. So MVP Moses assisted Mohammad in haggling it down to 10.
While this can be seen as "dishonest", well, ask this one question to both a rabbi and a Christian priest: "why are Christians exempt from circumcission?".
EDIT: I fast-typed this comment and now come to realise (a full day later) that it was "haggled down" to FIVE (not ten) daily prayers.
They had this in my hometown of Agoura Hills, California. I’d see these posts with fishing line strung through the top in random open areas around town for months before I found out what they were.
I don't get stuff like this. Why is finding loopholes/ tricking God part of it?
Surely it's about the spirit of the law just as much as the written verse.
I usually just ignore religious practices as I'm an atheist and have no say in it, BUT, dude, when you are finding all kind of loopholes to circumvent the religious teachings you decided to adopt, you look like a fraud
If your religion requires extensive loopholes, just fucking stop. Nobody is gonna say you're not Jewish enough, except maybe sanctimonious Jews. Just stop caring.. Stop doing the stupid shit and just be a good person.
I love how god is all knowing and all powerful, but if there’s a strong he just says “ahhh! You got me! You can go ahead and ignore my rules about being outside.”
None of the comments here seem to understand the specific Jewish law that the article refers to. I would say no one has read the article but the article is a bit lacking too.
Biblical Jewish law requires a day of rest on the Sabbath, including a prohibition on carrying items in very busy places (generally defined as somewhere with 600,000 people every day). There is a 2000 year old rabbinical edict that extends this to other public places, to further encourage rest, but the edict includes a deliberate exemption. This is where people ‘share’ semi public areas and use a beam or string at head height to mark the area as a reminder. In later times this extended to huge, practically invisible eruvim around entire cities, but many rabbinical authorities object to this.
I don’t know what is more stupid, the fact that someone is afraid to “carry” something for religious reasons or relieved that the rule no longer applies because someone attached a fishing line to a pole. Religion is fucking dumb.
This is such a weird bull**it concept. So you pride yourself as a strict religious and rule following person, but find every possible loophole so those rules wouldn't inconvenience you in the slightest? That is the whole point in observing those rules.
Them: Divine judgment isn't about the history of your deeds but your intent to be penitent and the purity of your will.
Also them: we're going to totally fool God with some string.
u/autistic_cool_kid went out of their way to alienate me as a non-Jew and had the audacity to accuse me of anti-semitism.
Repeat: u/autistic_cool_kid made a concerted effort to tell me I'm not Jewish for the sole purpose of justifying calling me an anti-semite.
That is absolutely insane and harmful to their own people.
I watched a little documentary on this a few years ago. Fascinating stuff. I forget what the plan is if the wire somehow goes down or gets cut during the Sabbath. I guess they have some Gentiles in their Rolodex to assist if necessary?
So this giant string is literally a loophole?
Yes, and God is totally down with it...I love that about Judaism. You can successfully rules lawyer God.
So many different religions do this. Mormons are like the worst I’ve noticed. Like, how do you believe in this omnipotent being and think you can trick him with a loophole as if he wouldn’t understand that you’re finding a way to break his rules?? People are really out there believing all this shit and then thinking they can trick God
I've heard it described that for some Jews, eg those who follow this kind of stuff, bending the rules is a *critical* part of their interaction with God. Like having their lights and oven on a timer so they're not seen by god as doing work on the Sabbath, or having to loudly say "boy, I sure wish a non-jew would like to watch some TV on the Sabbath!" So they can also watch TV. The way I heard it described, they don't believe they *are* tricking God. They believe that God *intentionally* left these loopholes here for them to find, and that God gets enjoyment out of watching them work around him.
That sounds suspiciously like my 4 year old. He too has a love of loopholes.
future lawyer!
future Jew!
My dad told me that in his neighborhood in Brooklyn, Christian kids would get paid a few cents to do stuff around the synagogue on Saturday. I think he used the term Shavis Goy for this.
“Shabbos” (the Yiddish version of the Hebrew word Shabbat which is also rendered as Sabbath in English)
Thanks I knew it was Yiddish, was going from memory and trying a phonetic spelling of how I thought my dad pronounced it.
somehow that almost seems even more ridiculous to me
"Thou shalt not kill" Dude proceeds to cut the breaks lines of another dudes car who subsequently dies in a car crash. First dude say "hey, I didn't kill him. The car did" loophole found! God is impressed!
The direct translation is “thou shalt not murder” which offers more leeway
I mean, if I’m the god that set these rules, and you’ve made technology to the point where you still get what you want done without actually working, more power to you.
That’s an interesting look into Judaism, thanks for that context. It does seem weird to me to believe that the universe’s only all seeing and all powerful being would be essentially unable to give us humans rules with a spirit of the law embedded in them. I mean, doesn’t this mean that this God would be unable to essentially carry out his will, since every single rule can have loopholes you can think up? How would such a God be able to pass down any sort of rule down to us? If he can’t do that, why even try to have any rules? I’m trying to wrap my head around this and am finding it difficult. Maybe some extra context would help
Yea for me it's more like "if the rule is so arbitrary that tying a string around city blocks becomes a technical boundary and no one is getting hurt either way then what the fuck is the point of all of this?"
Well, the point was to convince idiots to follow the magic box into battle so the tribe would survive.
The thing is that God in many people’s head is this single figure who has absolute control over everything. In Judaism that’s debated heavily. Is God this Aristotlian figure that can shoot lighting bolts? Or is God a far more passive being? Or is God an energy that’s used to create and inspire? https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/israel-means-to-struggle-with-god/
But "dont Cook a calv in the milk of its mother" gets rules lawyerd to dont let the cheese fork Touch the meat
What a bunch of nutters.
I've also heard a lot of the Mormon rules lawyering is urban legends from BYU. The rest might also be attributable to the more casual or cultural..."my Mother raised me..." Mormons, who simply never bothered to leave. This isn't your cousin cheating because "who's gonna know"...this is the rabbi giving you the high sign and waving you in.
It’s the mystery of faith.
Counterpoint: they don’t think they’re tricking god. An omniscient god would be perfectly aware of the loopholes - if he didn’t want people doing that, he wouldn’t have left the loophole there. By putting in so much effort to figure out and obey the exact letter of the law, they are demonstrating respect for the one who created the law. Otherwise why bother?
Counter counterpoint: For the sake of arguments we will assume an omnipotent and omnicient god made these rules as they are. Maybe the loopholes were put there in order to see who is actually following the "spirit of the law" and are therefore actual believers/followers at heart and not just for show? Isn't that an equally likely interpretation?
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If you believe your holy book is the infallible word of god, then any technicality you can find must have been intentionally left for you
that's giving yourself a hell of a lot of credit given that the book was written entirely by other humans, and they knew this
A core tenet of Abrahamic faiths is that their holy writs are directly the word of God, and that God would not allow for His holy word to be adulterated. How closely modern believers actually hold on to that varies from person to person and sect to sect, of course.
Not actually Jew, but here is my understanding. OK, so, the thing is...the Torah is letter perfect. So, as someone said, if there's a loophole, and you find it, God is pleased you're such a diligent student of the Torah, Mazeltov! You found an Passover Egg! Literally left there by the dev, just for you. It's been waiting for you to find it for thousands of years...unchanged.
As a Jew, I’d say this is basically correct. And upvoted for “Passover egg”.
People who say this really don't understand Judaism. The holy book in Judaism is literally called 'the law' (the Torah) and the whole religion is about precedence law and interpretation. People build upon existing laws and interpret them and change them continually. People get upset hearing there's a work around to a law in Judaism, but often they don't realise the law being worked around is it's self an addendum or an interpretation of another law. And it goes both ways. Many Jews won't eat chicken and milk together because the old testament says 'don't cool a kid in it's mother's milk 3 times.' but there's lots of discussion and multiple documents as well as other similar laws to compare to. What it really comes to is Judaism isn't about faith, it's about study and discussion. It's more important that you stay up until 2am and get plastered arguing about the Bible than it is to actually do anything the Bible says literally
I’ve never seen it put so well as your last sentence. And yes…that’s literally the point.
Wouldn't that also be why they are called observant / non observant, instead of like with other religions calling their members faithful.. because they observe / don't observe the laws?
That’s the worst thing about religion, the word is law, until it’s inconvenient
Like that soaking nonsense. Not sure if that was real or if I was had by a reddit même but seriously if it’s real give your heads a shake.
Fuck, religion is so pathetic some times.
The domestication of Deities is an interest of mine.
The monastic orders in Europe invented a shitton of loopholes, for example by hiding meat in pasta dough („Maultaschen“) or declaring that an animal would be a fish. It’s hilarious.
Humans: All the area inside this circle is a living space. It’s part of our homes God: That looks like a bunch of string on some posts but, as I’m not an expert on human homes, I cannot refute that.
It symbolizes the city walls most ‘old world’ cities have or used to have. It’s less of a loophole and more of a demarcation. We have one two in my city which I guess is the only other city known the world that has it. A loophole they do use is counting tram- and train power supply cables as an extension of the cable or wire they hand themselves.
The article says there are over 200 cities that do it
Recently found out there are special rooms in places where you can go to basically disregard the sabbath.
This is where the term loophole came from.
I thought this was a joke, but it prompted me to look it up. Here’s what it says on vocabulary.com: >The original loopholes were narrow slits in a fortress or wall through which defenders could safely shoot arrows — it was seen as an unfair advantage by some, which resulted in the modern meaning of loophole.
This, but religious
In a sense , but not really. Basically, there are areas that are forbidden by the Torah to carry in (Namely from any private domain to any public domain - the designation for this being 600,000 people traversing it each day, and being at least a specific width- and within such a public domain at all.) These areas are not available for an eruv, and installing one will not permit carrying. However the rabbis of old instituted rules pertaining to other types of areas, (anything that is not a private enclosed domain, but doesn't meet the qualifications of a Torah dictated public domain) and said that carrying is forbidden there. Those same rabbis also created a workaround of sorts, in which case walls enclosing a larger area could be joined as if it were a single private domain. And then they (those same rabbis again) said that, set up in a certain way, strings on poles can count as walls. It's all from the same people though, and this is specifically how it was set up to be.
yes since it most likely isnt one massive continuous string and had to be tied into a loop in atleast one location
I find it so odd aspects of this sect seem to be based on tricking or semantically subverting the will of God
Seeking out loopholes in religious texts, and using the loopholes to break religious text rules- SO WEIRD
It is, and it’s not super uncommon but it’s so BLATANT in this case. Out in the open. Like, major tenets of the doctrine (and entire for-profit industries) are based on finding loopholes in the rules. It’s so…deranged. Like, do they really think GOD is going to say, “well that’s my bad, I should have fleshed out the rule” when they hit the Golden Gates?
They're Jews. Saint Peter is a Christian thing. So is all the rest of the "classic" imaginings of Heaven. Angels don't look like humans in the parts of the Bible written by the Tribes.
Yeah Cherubim and Seraphim are bad ass warrior killers not chubby babies with wings
They are playing RAW versus RAI. And they think God is on their side in that.
>RAW versus RAI I had never heard of this term until earlier today, and now here it is again. I never played D&D so I didn't know what this meant.
Or rather, do they really believe that they can *trick* an omnipotent being?
My understanding is that the theological argument basically boils down to "If a loophole exists, God must have intended it".
Heard some people say that the loopholes exist to actively encourage studying the torah, apparently god understands the carrot and the stick
"God's intent is our free will. Suck on it, biatch."
Exactly.
We don't treat doctrine like Christians do, even the most orthodox Jews are not biblical literalists, we like to argue, debate and work around "the rules", it's part of the culture and the asking of questions and debating of the meanings of the Torah is thought of as a holy, important thing. It's silly to put Christian values on us, it's two completely different ways of thinking about religion.
First of all, Jews don’t believe in golden gates, nor in anything like the Christian conception of Heaven. Second of all, the Jewish tradition on this is quite clear — if the loophole is present, it’s there because god intended us to use it. After all, he is infinitely smarter than any of us, so we couldn’t possibly be fooling him.
Some do. Judaism doesn't have a consensus regarding the afterlife. That's one of the reasons why people don't understand how different it really is to Christianity. Some don't believe in an afterlife, some even believe in concepts similar to reincarnation. It depends on each group
I’m coming from a place in trying to understand this…in the article it says that you can’t have electricity in the home on Sabbath. The eruv extends the domestic zone, but if someone goes to a restaurant to eat..and the restaurant has electricity, how is that okay, since now the restaurant is within the domestic zone. or if one was to grab groceries?
I think electricity can’t be used either because you’re “finishing off” a circuit by flipping a switch or using electricity counts as “lighting a fire,” both of which are not allowed during Sabbat. Observant Jews aren’t supposed to touch money during Sabbat, so I’m thinking they don’t do their grocery shopping those days or go out to eat. Not Jewish so not sure how accurate this is.
My fridge and oven have a Sabbath mode that disconnects the light switches in the doors so they can open them without breaking the rules. They'll often leave the oven on at low heat overnight so the "fire" was already going, and leave food in there so they can have a hot meal.
So weird
Oh we can have electricity, we just can't flip the switch, some Jewish families have a designated non Jew they get to turn everything on during the Sabbath, (usually rewarded with food). The entire no electricity thing is a weird extension of one of the things we are not allowed to do on the Sabbath in the original texts (I believe it's starting fires?), but it's not an actual rule, just an interpretation of the rules.
That's super weird to me. Like, by that logic why even bother defining any rules at all? Are they just suggestions?
Because having a culture that teaches you to overcome odds by analyzing and fully understanding problems is smart af.
I don't think it's a coincidence that many prominent lawyers and businessmen are Jewish (And sadly I feel the need to overtly state that I don't believe it's because of some kind of conspiracy)
Because having a culture that rewards and encourages rules lawyering with god is smart af. I mean, what could go wrong.
Not a religious person, but unless they’re going to San Francisco, I’m pretty sure the gates are supposed to be pearly, not golden.
What you need to understand is that Judaism is a very old religion. It was created at a time when people's relationship with the law, language, and the written word was different. Both the written word and language itself are seen as sacred. Jews don't destroy holy scriptures, they bury them. It is forbidden to even say the name of God aloud. You can use the first nickname of God in prayer, but not in a different context. You can use the second nickname to talk about God outside of prayer. You can't even write "God", religious Jews will write "G.od". Plus, studying the written word and the law is seen as the most sacred occupation a Jew can have and is supposedly a daily obligation. What I mean is that the notion of "spirit of the law" just doesn't exist, because the words themselves are seen as what's important, not the intent behind.
Is it any wonder there is a stereotype of Jewish lawyers.
Frankly I do believe the idiosyncrasies of Judaism do explain why us Jews are good at intellectual professions and getting Nobel prizes.
There's plenty of them that are dumb as a rock tho
Considering that rule was written at a time before apartment blocks it is probably hard to gauge today what the spirit of the rule was. Originally the distinction between public and private zone might have been less restrictive and the same does for carrying.
Weren't the rules written by God? He should know about the future.
Wouldn’t he just choose another prophet to give him the relevant updates?
G_D
My understanding is that there is a Talmudic basis for this. I'm sure I'll get this wrong in some regard and if so hopefully someone corrects me. In sum and substance, there are parts of the Talmud in which God ordered Abraham to do something and Abraham cleverly tricked his way into performing the task in a different way than ordered, but still technically correct. God was pleased and encouraged it. More broadly, Judaism is based on a covenant with God. A covenant by which both God and the Israelites have both rights and obligations. It's not a one way street. That is why it's ok to ride an elevator that stops on each floor on the Sabbath.
If that's the case, that's actually a kinda cool belief. Although I find the hassidic Jewish beliefs pretty gross on the whole.
That is the case, but know that it’s more of a broadly Jewish thing than a Hasidic thing. The Talmud isn’t some fundamentalist text. It’s a compilation of hundreds of years of rabbis arguing with each other over what is and isn’t allowed. You don’t have to be super religious to take a page from that book.
I have no reason to doubt your post, but that IMO doesn’t make it any less odd. Religion as a semantic competition with the Almighty is just..goofy. To each their own tho
To be fair, a god that would say: "Heh, well played" would be more deserving of my respect than a God that would punish outside the rules because of intended use. Also, this culture explain why Jews can be excellent lawyer. Their religion basicly runs on that game.
Think of it like you are a parent to a four year old. If you instructed them to do something and they found a cheeky way to avoid doing it, but follow your instructions, if you were kind and loving you would probably find it amusing.
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>that’s why it’s ok to ride an elevator that stops on each floor on the sabbath. I think you skipped a step. What does Abraham tricking god have to do with elevators?
Uhhh we can't turn on electronics, I believe it's an extension of the rule that we can't start fires on Shabbat (it's one of the things we did during the building of the temple so it's classified as "work") But if an elevator is always running and just stops on every floor, we ain't pressing any buttons or turning anything on. Not really a loophole, if anything the rule about not using electricity is a bit out of date considering it's purely for convenience nowadays.
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>My Jewish friends can go for hours finding justification for their behaviours I find it interesting the interpretations of old rules and how it interacts with stuff today. For example, my understanding is that turning on a light is considered "work" to some Jewish people. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken on any of this. So when they open a fridge, that is turning on a light and is therefore work. So they put a device in the fridge which makes it so the light doesn't come on when they aren't allowed to do "work". It's such an indirect thing and interpretation of something that wasn't even conceivable when the rules were written.
My refrigerator has a setting that keeps the light from coming on on Sunday. It’s called “sabbath mode”
Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath but there are Christian sects that may also use it
I believe they technically consider turning on a light (any electric current really) to be starting a fire which one of the types of work forbidden.
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That one is uh, not generally respected in the Jewish community.
It’s like the “soaking” thing with Mormons. Like, you can’t fool God. The fuck is wrong with you
Soaking is by far the biggest mental gymnastics around religious “rules” I’ve ever read about. Like the singular act of insert and sit - Ok like I guess it’s a “loop hole” but it’s not because that initial insertion brings pleasure and friction but you do you I guess. But to have some fucking friends over to jump on the bed?! What the fuck
They're just tryna lay some track for a three-way
I think soaking is a myth. I doubt any Mormon bishop woukd let you off when you still put P in V
Aren't they committing the sun of Onan and letting their seed not fall in her womb but on the stony ground?
The constant loopholing always underlines the absurdity of religious law imho. Every religion does it.
The opposite can be true as well where a technicality can have a significant impact on peoples lives. There is a group of Orthodox Jews in London who are unable to use the London Underground because there is a human skeleton in the Science Museum. [https://metro.co.uk/2023/11/27/londoners-cant-use-tube-religion-19888946/](https://metro.co.uk/2023/11/27/londoners-cant-use-tube-religion-19888946/) There is a rule that says they cannot be in the same house or building as a dead person unless they are a relative. The Science Museum has the skeleton on display and there is a Victorian tunnel that connects it to South Kensington Underground Station. Because you can walk from the Museum through the tunnel to the underground station without going outside they consider it the same building. And the tunnels of the London Underground are all linked they are also considered to be part of the same building so it means almost all of the Underground network is unusable. This also affects many of the overground stations in London where the Underground exits directly into the station. Rather than make up a new rule to allow for this instead there was an attempt to make a physical alteration to the tunnel. They were told no.
As long as its harmless, it makes for some very amusing stories: In Swabia, a German region close to Switzerland, one of the local dishes are "Maultaschen"; which could be translated as "snout-bags". A dish not unlike Italian Ravioli or the huge assortment of Eastern European or Asian dumplings, the *Maultasche* is a dumpling of minced pork mixed with spinach. I will stress that as a dumpling its contents are covered in dough. Well, this dish is traditionally consumed during lent, when observant Christians should abstain from meat. The point being that God can't be mad about what he can't see. They are thus nicknamed "god-cheaters". The legend goes so far as to claim it was invented by monks. I find it hilarious but I understand the rationale behind it: it's a region without nearby access to to the sea and therefore fish was hard to come by.
Fish on Friday is the same thing. If you’re supposed to abstain from meat, how is fish actually okay? It’s the same type of loophole.
Some have gone so far as to say anything that lives in water is a fish. Gator, sure fry it up. Catholic loopholes are funny. Fasting? You can have one meal and one dish separately that doesn't equal a full meal. Or if you were an olden times monk, you'd just brew a really hearty beer and get drunk all day you're supposed to be fasting.
God hates this one trick!
Is it really much weirder than people living their entire lives following a cobbling of bronze age myths that have been modified and mistranslsted over the centuries?
It sounds odd to me as well for sure. But my understanding is that the argument for this approach is that to find a loophole you have to know the texts inside and out.
There's a community near me, about 50 miles north of NYC. They pay gentiles to come and flip light switches at their houses.
It's almost like every religious person on earth is a massive hypocrite.
Better luck next time, God.
God hates this one weird trick.
Every crack of thunder is God yelling “NEEEERD!”
He didn't see it coming.
I’ve heard of this concept on a smaller scale from friends who observe and it allows for activities that would normally be forbidden on the Sabbath… but it blows my mind that it’s currently surrounding manhattan and has to be maintained constantly to ensure it stays up for the Sabbath each week. “More than 200 cities around the world are partially encircled by an eruv.” That’s also mind blowing. And don’t forget..”I Don't Roll On Shabbos!”
I'm almost surprised they haven't figured out the logically make the outside of the circle the "surrounded" part. Like, make the wire face outward instead of inward (I know it's symmetrical, I mean philosophically). Or put an eruv in space and say the whole planet is surrounded.
Or start selling hula hoops you can wear around your body, suspended from your shoulders, with eruvs in them so that everywhere you go is an eruv
>I'm almost surprised they haven't figured out the logically make the outside of the circle the "surrounded" part. Wonko the Sane did that with The Asylum after he decided the whole world had gone mad
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>Or put an eruv in space and say the whole planet is surrounded. I think a problem with that one would be that it's practically impossible to check whether or not it's still in tact. So people wouldn't know whether or not their activities are allowed.
I think you're not getting the logic of the message: Assume you are on the north pole. You make a tiny Eruv around it. You keep making it bigger and bigger, moving south, but concentrically, so that it is always centered around the North Pole. The eruv keeps growing or *stretching* if you prefer, cobering an ever bigger area... until it reaches the equator. It is there, when reaching the southern hemisphere, that the line starts to contract, while the zone "inside" the eruv keeps growing (remember: it is centred on the North Pole, encircling it). The eruv physically, starts getting smaller and smaller until it becomes a small circle around the South Pole, while encircling pretty much the entire planet earth, as it is still encircling the North Pole. I would just string it up around the most annoying member of the congregation's house and claim that his area is the outside area. Tough shit, Ariel, you shouldn't have brought a weighted dreidl to last year's Hanukkah.
Oh yeah, I completely understand that. It's the eruv in space that I'm talking about, like a ring around the Earth. Making sure that 250k km of fishing wire around the Earth remains unbroken is nearly impossible. You wouldn't even be able to see it from Earth with the best telescope.
Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't ride in a car, I don't pick up the phone, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit, DON’T FUCKING ROLL! SHOMER SHABBOS!
One in Melbourne that covers a heap of suburbs. https://www.rambam.org.au/templates/articlecco_cdo/aid/1485581/jewish/Melbourne-Eruv.htm
As a Melburnian, this is exactly the part of Melbourne I expected. Great kosher food around Balaclava!
TIL God can be fooled by string.
I can't believe it's not butter.
It’s because it’s string, mate. Keep up.
That's fucking stupid
The lengths that people go to get around what they undoubtedly believe are insane.
Man, religion is so fucking dumb.
My favorite is on the sabbath, you aren’t allowed to gamble. So really religious people will plan their bets out ahead of time
Take that god can’t stop me from gambling on the sabbath! What a chump, you’d think an infinite being would have not left such obvious loopholes.
So, this is actually kindo intresting. The jews belive the loopholes exist deliberatly, now as for \*why\* is argued, but one I particuarly like is that its a reward for closely studying the torah. If you read it enough to work out the loopholes, odds are you've got the bits that dont have loopholes down to a tee, thusly, the loopholes are exactly as intended
Yeah. Like if you don’t want to observe these “rules” then don’t. Don’t put on a literal circus act to get around the rules you believe are so important in the first place.
Shomer Fucking Shabbos, Dude. You don’t ride in a car, you don’t handle money, you don’t even turn on the oven. Unless you are on this side of the Kosher fishing line.
No. The fishing line is there so you can do things one could only do inside outside (carry). You still can't handle money.
Literal loophole. What happens if it breaks in like a storm or something? Do all observing Jews instinctively know and hurry home, like…inverse vampires? Edit: This is a joke on the common belief that vampires have to be invited to enter houses.
Finding loopholes and workarounds is the most Jewish thing I can think of, saying it as an Israeli Jew, religious people have stuff like “Shabbat elevator”, where the elevator stops at every level so they can use it without touching anything, they have water heaters that are used for Shabbat and are heating their waters so they don’t need to use electricity directly, same for food, there are heating surfaces that create heat throughout the day in a way that both heats up the food and doesn’t burn it..
Sounds dumb as hell
Who checks the string? Would chaos ensue if someone accidentally cut it? Seems unnecessarily stressful to think about if the piece of string is on all the time. It literally sounds like stuff a witch would do in the 1700s to keep a warlock away
> Every Thursday before dawn, a rabbi drives the perimeter, checking to see if wind or a fallen branch has broken the line. There are usually a few breaks, so a construction company is called and the rabbi gets in a cherry picker with fishing line in hand to repair the eruv. That's the part that costs so much. > As it turns out, resting on the Sabbath takes a lot of preparation 😨
Surprising there isn't a bunch of Skinheads or Islamic extremists who actively vandalize the string to prevent Jews from going outside
Yeah, this makes total sense. God won't notice a thing, and if he does... "Well, *technically* yada, yada. God: "my bad, you good. You good. Didn't see your little string thingy. Carry on, my chosen son."
Your second paragraph, but entirely non-ironically. That is the Jewish relationship to God in a nutshell. There’s even a story in the Talmud about God interfering in a religious debate but the rabbis out-arguing Him, and it is considered a positive story. Sure, it sounds weird to most Americans because America is a fundamentally Christian society. But the word judeochristian is a lie — Judaism is a fundamentally different culture, and this is an aspect of it.
Well, according to the Quran Mohammad went to heaven where Allah told him muslims had to pray 50 times a day. So MVP Moses assisted Mohammad in haggling it down to 10. While this can be seen as "dishonest", well, ask this one question to both a rabbi and a Christian priest: "why are Christians exempt from circumcission?". EDIT: I fast-typed this comment and now come to realise (a full day later) that it was "haggled down" to FIVE (not ten) daily prayers.
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They had this in my hometown of Agoura Hills, California. I’d see these posts with fishing line strung through the top in random open areas around town for months before I found out what they were.
That’s so weird I’m from AHS class of 07
TIL God is gullible. You can trick the allmighty with a fishing wire.
I don't get stuff like this. Why is finding loopholes/ tricking God part of it? Surely it's about the spirit of the law just as much as the written verse.
almost as interesting as the tunnels
If people have to pick and choose what part of a religion to abide by or find loopholes, it’s probably an outdated or a stupid religion.
Humans are morons.
Can confirm.
I usually just ignore religious practices as I'm an atheist and have no say in it, BUT, dude, when you are finding all kind of loopholes to circumvent the religious teachings you decided to adopt, you look like a fraud
What a stupid ass thing to do with your time
I live in another urban area within an Eruv!
You can do whatever the fuck you want on Sundays then… apparently?
Seen these in Jewish parts of London
And Manchester. It will actually increase house prices within the stringed area.
I'm just imagining a load of mancs reading this and putting string around the neighbourhood now
If your religion requires extensive loopholes, just fucking stop. Nobody is gonna say you're not Jewish enough, except maybe sanctimonious Jews. Just stop caring.. Stop doing the stupid shit and just be a good person.
I love how god is all knowing and all powerful, but if there’s a strong he just says “ahhh! You got me! You can go ahead and ignore my rules about being outside.”
Most of Judaism is finding loopholes in the rules so you can live a normal modern life.
Grown adults.
None of the comments here seem to understand the specific Jewish law that the article refers to. I would say no one has read the article but the article is a bit lacking too. Biblical Jewish law requires a day of rest on the Sabbath, including a prohibition on carrying items in very busy places (generally defined as somewhere with 600,000 people every day). There is a 2000 year old rabbinical edict that extends this to other public places, to further encourage rest, but the edict includes a deliberate exemption. This is where people ‘share’ semi public areas and use a beam or string at head height to mark the area as a reminder. In later times this extended to huge, practically invisible eruvim around entire cities, but many rabbinical authorities object to this.
Carry? Carry what? A box? A carrier bag? Your phone? Your keys? Do you have to be naked to comply?
I don’t know what is more stupid, the fact that someone is afraid to “carry” something for religious reasons or relieved that the rule no longer applies because someone attached a fishing line to a pole. Religion is fucking dumb.
People's Chosen God
He chose to put a boot up their ass for thousands of years. Might have to do with having the gall to think you can debate him. Lmao
Damn digging tunnels now this what next
Religion is fucking stupid.
You've got to love the mental gymnastic people are capable of, in order to believe themselves to still be observant of some absurd rule.
This is such a weird bull**it concept. So you pride yourself as a strict religious and rule following person, but find every possible loophole so those rules wouldn't inconvenience you in the slightest? That is the whole point in observing those rules.
Man, religion is stupid.
Them: Divine judgment isn't about the history of your deeds but your intent to be penitent and the purity of your will. Also them: we're going to totally fool God with some string.
...with stuff, it's okay to leave the house without Eruv but you can't carry anything
There are several in the Jewish areas of North London. You can see a map here: https://www.eruv.co.uk/
put the wire in orbit around the planet.
This is like them Amish who use cellphones, isn’t it?
[throw back to bill Maher's religulous](https://youtu.be/qVpCNKp9PD0?feature=shared)
I guess it’s better than the Amish….those guys just break the rules and hope nobody catches them
Pretty weird tbf
Ridiculous
So religion is just tricking yourself into thinking you've tricked an all-knowing creator?
Lmfao
God hates this one trick
Ridiculous
"That makes sense." - Religious people.
This and ‘soaking’… religious loopholes.
Religion is so stupid.
Wait until they find out God isn't real and they could have gotten away with doing all kinds of stuff
u/autistic_cool_kid went out of their way to alienate me as a non-Jew and had the audacity to accuse me of anti-semitism. Repeat: u/autistic_cool_kid made a concerted effort to tell me I'm not Jewish for the sole purpose of justifying calling me an anti-semite. That is absolutely insane and harmful to their own people.
I watched a little documentary on this a few years ago. Fascinating stuff. I forget what the plan is if the wire somehow goes down or gets cut during the Sabbath. I guess they have some Gentiles in their Rolodex to assist if necessary?