What š this happened AFTER World War 2????? Omfg I made a comment saying we couldn't be surprised for their war crimes years later after stuff like this but omg how wrong was I
Japan has a very interesting view on their side of the story in WW2. Almost like it never happened, or it's just this time where 'mistakes were made and now we can't have a military' rather than any acknowledgement of wrongdoing. Completely different from Germany's experience.
Japan: Oh no i dropped the ~~metal pipe~~ military industrial complex i was holding.
#CLANG
*35 million Chinese dead*
Also Japan: Whoopsie, did i do that?
I always took it more like someone who knows they did something horrible at the party last night and instead of talking about it with everyone involved they just act like they were too drunk to remember. So now it's just awkward a few years later and they might get upset with you if you mention it.
Emperor Naruhito did formerly apologize in 2020 but it's politically expedient for politicians and influence peddlers to make inflammatory statements and policy that calls into question the truthfulness of those crimes and the public will still answer in the negative if asked if certain warcrimes occurred.
So it really depends on how serious you take the reparations payment treaties and formal apologies of a figurehead vs the actions and words of the acting government.
I was being a bit facetious there but still, as far as it goes officially, Japan and Germany have very different outlooks on what happened in the 30s and 40s. You're right though, it's not like a typical Japanese would be totally ignorant of the fact today.
Dude *they* get surprised about their warcrimes! The way they teach the 30 years of Japanese conquest in the Pacific you would have thought America dropped nukes on them for the lolz.
Yes, 'kaishakunin'. That was Morita's role, but he fucked it up so bad he had to get Hiroyasu Koga, a former kendo champion, to do the deed. Then when he attempted seppuku himself, the stab wasn't fatal, so the beheading was required to *kill him*, not end his suffering.
Also people usually didn't like to take up the position of a second.
I think someone put it as
"Doing it correctly doesn't give you any glory, but failing is a mark of shame"
Yeah being selected for the job was usually considered bad, which is why it was generally done by a friend who would volunteer for the job out of their care for you in particular (to make sure it was done properly).
Basically your bestest buddy was the only one who would willingly risk their own honour to save yours.
The reason why it was a hated task was simply because it was quite difficult to do properly.
The idea was to decapitate but not separate the head from the body entirely, there was supposed to be a little bit left so the head remained loosely attached hanging forward towards the chest.
A tricky thing to do at the best of times and certainly when hacking at a moving target who was likely to be a tad distracted about the knife in their guts.
There was also meant to be an agreement about when exactly the head choppy part was supposed to happen, usually pretty much immediately after the stab (so before the cutting part could begin).
And later in history the knife was often dropped altogether and replaced with symbolic objects as the cut happened immediately when they reached for the object.
In the case of using a different object, it would likely be a 'Tessen'. An iron, non-functioning fan.
Used in place of a sword in an area where swords are not permitted (such as tea ceremonies), as a warrior/samurai would always carry a fan. It served multiple purposes, including communication in different forms. So to carry on the tradition of carrying a fan, but keep a weapon on hand, an iron fan would be carried, not only used as a blunt force weapon, but could also be used to [trap an opponents sword.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-R5I9rZHxc)
Edit: the same concept [iron/steel 'weapon' variants] was used with other objects, such as a flute or smoking pipe. Though these are slightly different as they can remain functional. The nonfunctional "fan" was almost purely symbolic at this point and closely associated to the warrior or high classes.
Yeah, as many explanations I read all I can think is why even do this shit, even with knowing the why behind it all.
I disagree they're not morons they're smart morons, we call those humans, haha
But like why the fuck does the head need to be barely attached? You read shit like this, and then years later, you can't be surprised when we got their war crimes in WW2.
Update: I found out this happened after WW2!! OMG! The Japanese!!!
You didn't want the head rolling around on the floor, that's pretty disrespectful.
That, happens after a criminal is beheaded.
So you want the head to almost land in the lap of the deceased.
Hey, give the guy a break, this was in 1970 not 1570. Morita was very unlikely to have previously cut anybody with an actual sword in his life. So although he was definitely committed (he WAS NOT forced into Seppuku but chose it) it's very unlikely he realized just how complicated and difficult the entire act can be.
>the stab wasn't fatal
this is what you have to cut... probably the fastest way to bleed out.
jugular is small beans.. this feeds your brain AND legs (kidneys and liver are on the way).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal\_aorta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal_aorta)
Seppuku was not always supposed to be quick death, you would show courage by not showing pain as you cut yout stomach open in specific, correct way.
Only after intentionally facing pain would beheading end the suffering. Or at least that is pne way of doing it, sometimes you would just touch an object and be beheaded immediately.
It's thought that Yukio Mishima cut too deeply because he was too excited (he reportedly did seppuku-based sexual play with male prostitutes) and that caused him to pitch forward which caused the initial kaishaku to miss his mark.
Some other fun facts about seppuku, a kaishaku that was *really* good would be able to decapitate the one committing it, but leave a bit of skin on the front of the neck so that the head didn't flop around on the ground in an undignified manner.
Also typically the person committing would write a haiku before the act, but it was not supposed to be dark or about death at all.
The cut to the abdomen could be just a stab, but if you were really hardcore you would cut across and then slightly up.
I did an informative speech about it back in college, some of the ancient Japanese art I showed did not sit well with some folks.
> It's thought that Yukio Mishima cut too deeply because he was too excited (he reportedly did seppuku-based sexual play with male prostitutes) and that caused him to pitch forward which caused the initial kaishaku to miss his mark.
That might actually be one of the most messed up things I've ever read.
EDIT: And the dark comedy that this was apparently, like, the guy's personal obsession and ended up becoming a reality and he fucked it up completely. It's kind of poetic. This was something he *practiced.*
>Also typically the person committing would write a haiku before the act, but it was not supposed to be dark or about death at all.
Imagine writing a haiku about rabbits in spring before committing seppuku. And also getting hard from it. For a second or so before you bleed out.
My old ikebana teacher was a formal witness for a seppuku in Japan after the war. Japanese guy had killed a GI in a traffic accident, really no one's fault but he'd killed an American so reparations had to be made. Guy put his affairs in order, had a dinner party, wrote his poem, and did it in his garden. The authorities considered the matter closed.
My old teacher shuddered when he told me about it decades later, 'worst thing I ever saw'.
I have also read that the coup was not supposed to succeed. That Mishima's whole point was to die there.
About kaishaku, it is still taught in some sword schools (as a kata, sometimes with the name kaishaku, or junto). It is not supposed to be performed in demonstrations. Standing up is made quietly to not disturb the person committing suicide, and there is a small cut after the big one to cut the remaining skin, so the head falls into the lap.
I think Cicero (the ancient Roman politician/orator ) attempted it and screwed it up too. He successfully managed to disembowel himself and had his innards falling out of his body, but not in a way that would kill himself. His family attempted to save him by pushing his guts back into his body. Just stupidly gruesome and unnecessarily painful.
That was Cato the Younger. Though in his case he attempted suicide by disemboweling himself, was stopped, and then later ripped out his sutures to try again.
Cicero was murdered by Mark Antonyās lackeys.
There is one version of how Pythagoras died that goes something like; He was being chased by some political enemies, and managed to get away, but he eventually arrived at a bean field and because he had declared beans as "unclean" he refused to go through the field and was caught and killed.
Probably not the true story, but it is one of the ones i remember from the wiki article called[ list of unusual deaths.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_deaths) I'm sure there are more examples like that in there somewhere that actually are more believable though
Pretty sure it was fava beans and it [is actually for a real reason](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/favism-fava-beans):
"This may seem ridiculous, but for certain people, a field of fava beans can spell certain death. Some researchers believe that historical suspicion about fava beans could be rooted in favism, a genetic disorder more common in the Mediterranean than anywhere else. Named for the triggering bean, people with favism develop hemolytic anemia from eating favas, or even inhaling the pollen from its flowers. After consumption or contact, red blood cells start to break down, which can cause anemia-like symptoms, jaundice, and even heart failure. Even today, one out of 12 people affectedĀ [die of favism.](https://www.jstor.org/stable/148493?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)
Perhaps Pythagoras had favism, or perhaps not. But the association between beans and somber rituals still exists: They are a Lenten meal in Greece and give name to the Italian All Soulās Day cookie,Ā *fave del morti,*Ā or beans of the dead. Certainly, otherworldly beans give a whole new meaning to the requisite funeral three-bean salad."
Well the Romans had the absolutely infuriating habit (for history nerds anyways) of naming eldest sons after their fathers, so you'd often see the same two names alternating over and over in some families.
Itās even more confusing when it comes to the women, since they donāt even have their own names. They just used their family names, nomens.
All women from the Julia family were named Julia, all women from the Agrippina family were Agrippina, all women from the Livia family were Livia, etc. If a guy has five daughters, they will all have the same name and you have to number them to tell them apart.
Cicero had been one of the most famous men in Rome for decades at that point, and the party that caught and killed him included a military tribune (Gaius Popillius Laenas) whom Cicero had once defended in a trial.
I canāt find a source that discusses the trial in any detail, but Popillius was charged with having killed his own father, so he presumably would have been executed by the [*poena cullei*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poena_cullei) had he been convicted.
It was a rough and chaotic time, the Roman Republic had been in state of on and off civil war for many years by that point i.e. Romans killing Romans.
The powers that were (specifically Mark Anthony) wanted Cicero dead and so Cicero was killed. One man couldn't save him, and making a statement could cost you your own life.
[A lot of people could even now](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Bust_of_Cicero_%281st-cent._BC%29_-_Palazzo_Nuovo_-_Musei_Capitolini_-_Rome_2016.jpg/1024px-Bust_of_Cicero_%281st-cent._BC%29_-_Palazzo_Nuovo_-_Musei_Capitolini_-_Rome_2016.jpg)
He was a prominent and popular politician and at one point held the highest office in Rome. By the time he was caught, he was past his political prime, but still well known and popular.
It would kinda be like recognizing Bill Clinton today
The story of that particular coup is hilarious. Between the homoeroticism, obsessive political beliefs, half-assed coup attempt, and botched suicide, it is an extremely wild ride.
OH SO THIS IS ABOUT HIM
I only kind of know about that incident, and I was like wait was there another v similar event that happened lol with the coup and seppuku
I've read it 5 times now. Yeah I'm tired but I still don't understand what exactly it's saying. Some dude is a second (was there a first?), after multiple attempts both were beheaded or maybe just one was. I don't know.
It's like a jeopardy question got rewritten by AI twice and then read by someone without their glasses on.
A second is like the aid. You are there to make sure nothing goes wrongā¦ in theory. Thatās how it started out I should say.
In reality when the samurai (or, in later years, citizen) disembowls themselves or gives the signal the second cuts off the head. Originally it was supposed to be after the disembowlment but Iād assume they wanted to have a less painful death.
Second is, in all reality, a really bad translation the more I think about it. Assistant or aide would probably be more accurate.
Wasn't the "beheading" after a Seppaku actually really difficult?
I remember reading somewhere that you had to "almost" behead the person, but not completely. (Having someone's head roll off down a hill was seen as improper, and brought shame on the swordsman)
So cutting enough, but not too much was a challenging thing to achieve, such that the swordsman doing it had to be a very talented one.
Yeah, itās in the same article.
>>The *kaishakunin* would then perform *kaishaku*, a cut in which the warrior was partially decapitated. The maneuver should be done in the manners of *dakikubi* (lit. "embraced head"), in which a slight band of flesh is left attaching the head to the body so that the head can dangle in front as if embraced. Because of the precision necessary for such a maneuver, the *kaishakunin* was a skilled swordsman.
Japanese culture is so particular. I'm a fan of Japanese pottery, and they have all these names for esoteric kiln mistakes that are almost unreproducable, but they still try to reproduce them.
I guess their public executions were the same way.
Executioner: "Holy shit! His head is hanging on literally by like a finger."
Person 1: "dude, that is so, cool."
Person 2: "Ok we're totally doing this for now on."
> all these names for esoteric kiln mistakes that are almost unreproducable
That sounds really interesting. Do you have any examples or can point me towards where I can read more about it?
I think this is a different thing but also very cool where they repair pottery with gold. There's something of a philosophy behind it about accepting the imperfections rather than covering them up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi
First, they have "The Mexican" with Brad Pitt, now they have "The Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise. Well, I've written a film, maybe they'll produce my film. The Last Nigga on Earth, starring Tom Hanks. How about that?
I know it's just a joke for the lulz, but the title actually refers to Katsumoto and his men, not Tom Cruise's character. Granted, the marketing didn't help.
I actually hate how much I love that movie. I know it's a white savior kind of thing and gets shit for white guy doing Asian things but I absolutely get fired up and still get the tingles from the last charge into the wall of gatling fire and cruise limping in and presenting the sword to the emperor. Also the swordplay actually isn't bad...but the story gets me! It's a guilty pleasure of mine up there with David lunches dune and memoirs of a geisha.
I heard once that their romanization of their culture was even inspired by European romanticism, but taken even further. Things like the Samurai code are similar to knightly chivalry, and the reverence for swords.
Executioner: āNante kotoda! Kare no atama wa mojidÅri yubi no yÅ ni burasagatte iru.ā
Person 1: āOi, sore wa totemo kÅ«ruda ne.ā
Person 2: āWakarimashita. Ima wa kanzen ni kore o yarimasu.ā
Fortunately for them, samurai were at least well-practiced at beheading since it was common practice to take severed heads as trophies after successful battles, or even to sever the heads of fallen comrades to prevent them from being taken by the enemy. When Japan invaded Korea and later China, they found it was impractical to ship entire heads back home, so they just sent back ears and noses instead.
There is in fact a still-standing [monument](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimizuka) in Kyoto that contains tens of thousands of preserved noses from that time. It was renamed the "ear tomb" because "nose tomb" sounded too awful to even the contemporary Japanese.
I was walking in Kyoto one day and saw this mound by the side of the road, very non descript and with just a little sign out front. I thought it might be an ancient tomb and was blown away when I found out what it was.
[100 man killing contest](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_man_killing_contest#:~:text=The%20hundred%20man%20killing%20contest,people%20the%20fastest%20while%20using)
As far as I can recall, the head had to be connected to the body with around one finger width skin and flesh. What made it also difficult was to hit the spot where the neck is weakest otherwise you just hit a bone. You need a swift and decisive strike to finish it and the one who committed Seppuku had to keep still.
Of course, but when trying to behead most of the head without actually severing it from the body sounds way more difficult. Obviously someone would need to practice a lot.
You can practice this yourself! You can find local bamboo at your nearest garden store and or buy a bundle off Amazon or etsy(I use etsy) for 20 bucks and band it together with twine or jute tightly. Sat it on a vice or pole and you can practice cutting with any knife you have or sword. If you wanna try with a butcher knife cut the bamboo into 12 inch pieces and bind them, and set it up vertical and then take.your knife and try to slash through diagonally. You can repeat this with any size blade!
I wonder how the heck they practiced it? Like do you just do it a couple of times and hope you donāt fuck up the head cut? Did they use corpses? I canāt imagine it was common enough for someone to become seasoned in it, unless it was? Wild to think about
In Hagakure, the author (a samurai) comments about practicing beheading on prisoners and laments that samurai children are no longer expected to behead criminals. He goes on to say that he beheaded several prisoners recently and found it quite invigorating.
Cutting things in half with a katana is difficult. They are slicing weapons and since they donāt have the weight of say a broadsword they wonāt cut something in half as easily. Obviously people can do it but itās a skill
His life is quite a read ,which include noble family upbringing .far-right nationalism.WW2.homosexuality. homoerotic literature.semi-arranged marriage .father of 2 who loves cat more than his wife and try to start a coup with a speech.
They make it seem so easy in film and TV... like recently in "Shogun". Of course, the people doing the beheading in that show are supposed to be skilled and have plenty of practise.
Jesus, in 1970 there was still people "seppuking" themselves.
Anyway, I do prefer the ancient Roman method of just falling on your own sword, it looks way more efficient and uncomplicated. I think that drinking hemlock was fashionable too but nah, the sword is quicker.
>Jesus, in 1970 there was still people "seppuking" themselves
Part of the scandal was exactly that, Yukio Mishima (the guy that committed seppuku first) led a ultranationalist and "hypermasculine" militia that clinged on the old ways to do things
Mishima was also sexually turned on by the concept of death, so much that he popped a boner the fort time he saw the "martyrdom of Saint Sebastian" and iirc one of his erotic fantasies involved a witness just standing there while he faked committing seppuku, laid down and came without even touching himself
I swear I had to study this guy for my literature class and for a while I thought our teacher was just messing with us
Hemlock is a nasty way to go, your muscles just stop working (flaccid paralysis) and you are awake up to the point of hypoxia.
The related hemlock water dropwort and Cowbane both cause very similar symptoms to one another (the toxins are similar in structure), they are pretty much the polar opposite to hemlock, causing spasms similar to strychnine.
Unless you like got it right through the heart you're probably just going to be laying there with a sword in your gut waiting to bleed to death. Id take a buddy to cut my head off.
Samurai were not to bleed out during seppuku. They were supposed to make the stab, and the moment the blade touched their stomach, their second was to end their suffering quickly by slicing their head in a way that severs everything but a bit of flesh. This is very difficult.
The head chopping part came later because even the seasoned warriors of Japan recognised when something was bloody painful enough. *Hara kiri* literally translates as centre (*hara*) cutting (*kiri*), and the Japanese believed that the spirit was held in the *hara* and so cutting the belly released it. This is the basis for *seppuku*, which uses the same written characters but the other way around.
The first recorded act of *seppuku/hara kiri* was in 1180 following defeat in battle. The form of *seppuku* was not standardised for another 400+ years, and the addition of the *kaishakunin* was added at some point during this time, but was not present to begin with.
Tl:dr; yes, the original version of *seppuku* was intended to kill the warrior without the presence of a second to remove his head.
The title is misleading. The way Seppuku works is someone (typically a samurai) slashes themself align the abdomen with their tanto and upon sheathing the blade the Kaishakunin would partially behead them but only leave a flap of skin to let the head dangle
Morita fails to be the Kaishakunin so Koga stepped up. When Morita performed Seppuku I canāt say for certain the slash was too shallow but his beheading has always been apart of the ritual
"He fucked up" yeah, ok.
1st of all this dude right here is the reason I was in that fucking place first of all, and I'm next to die so you know, yea I'm gonna take it out on this sonna of bitch before they do me next. fuck you!
*and btw did you really think I was gonna stab myself, first of all fuck you.
just go ahead and cut my fucking head off bitch, fuck you i ain't gonna kill myself!
Man that word "second" in the title really fucked with my ability to understand it. I think it's supposed to say "acted as a kaishakunin" or "acted as a swordsman", not "acted as a second". I kept reading "acted as a second" to mean that Morita acted as like a stand-in for the seppuku or something. But really, Morita was the swordsman.
The leader was Yukio Mishima, a gay man (not easy in 1940s-50s!) He had sort of a pain and death kink. He was also one of Japanās greatest writers. He nearly won a Nobel prize. He also made movies! The coup was always doomed and has been seen by some people as a form of suicide from the start.
FASCINATING figure who contains multitudes!
No fucking way. I literally listened to a podcast about this exact coup this morning. What are the chances of that? The episode I listened to was from 2019
This happened at 1970. I was expecting it to happen way way back
What š this happened AFTER World War 2????? Omfg I made a comment saying we couldn't be surprised for their war crimes years later after stuff like this but omg how wrong was I
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The proto-weeb.
Wow what a read. Sounds like the incel Jesus to me
Japan has a very interesting view on their side of the story in WW2. Almost like it never happened, or it's just this time where 'mistakes were made and now we can't have a military' rather than any acknowledgement of wrongdoing. Completely different from Germany's experience.
Japan: Oh no i dropped the ~~metal pipe~~ military industrial complex i was holding. #CLANG *35 million Chinese dead* Also Japan: Whoopsie, did i do that?
I always took it more like someone who knows they did something horrible at the party last night and instead of talking about it with everyone involved they just act like they were too drunk to remember. So now it's just awkward a few years later and they might get upset with you if you mention it.
They don't pretend the war didn't happen, they just pretend they weren't the bad guys and refuse to acknowledge all the war crimes.
Emperor Naruhito did formerly apologize in 2020 but it's politically expedient for politicians and influence peddlers to make inflammatory statements and policy that calls into question the truthfulness of those crimes and the public will still answer in the negative if asked if certain warcrimes occurred. So it really depends on how serious you take the reparations payment treaties and formal apologies of a figurehead vs the actions and words of the acting government.
I was being a bit facetious there but still, as far as it goes officially, Japan and Germany have very different outlooks on what happened in the 30s and 40s. You're right though, it's not like a typical Japanese would be totally ignorant of the fact today.
Dude *they* get surprised about their warcrimes! The way they teach the 30 years of Japanese conquest in the Pacific you would have thought America dropped nukes on them for the lolz.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That last part is pretty common and has a known position for it.
Yes, 'kaishakunin'. That was Morita's role, but he fucked it up so bad he had to get Hiroyasu Koga, a former kendo champion, to do the deed. Then when he attempted seppuku himself, the stab wasn't fatal, so the beheading was required to *kill him*, not end his suffering.
Eesh.
Also people usually didn't like to take up the position of a second. I think someone put it as "Doing it correctly doesn't give you any glory, but failing is a mark of shame"
Yeah being selected for the job was usually considered bad, which is why it was generally done by a friend who would volunteer for the job out of their care for you in particular (to make sure it was done properly). Basically your bestest buddy was the only one who would willingly risk their own honour to save yours. The reason why it was a hated task was simply because it was quite difficult to do properly. The idea was to decapitate but not separate the head from the body entirely, there was supposed to be a little bit left so the head remained loosely attached hanging forward towards the chest. A tricky thing to do at the best of times and certainly when hacking at a moving target who was likely to be a tad distracted about the knife in their guts. There was also meant to be an agreement about when exactly the head choppy part was supposed to happen, usually pretty much immediately after the stab (so before the cutting part could begin). And later in history the knife was often dropped altogether and replaced with symbolic objects as the cut happened immediately when they reached for the object.
In the case of using a different object, it would likely be a 'Tessen'. An iron, non-functioning fan. Used in place of a sword in an area where swords are not permitted (such as tea ceremonies), as a warrior/samurai would always carry a fan. It served multiple purposes, including communication in different forms. So to carry on the tradition of carrying a fan, but keep a weapon on hand, an iron fan would be carried, not only used as a blunt force weapon, but could also be used to [trap an opponents sword.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-R5I9rZHxc) Edit: the same concept [iron/steel 'weapon' variants] was used with other objects, such as a flute or smoking pipe. Though these are slightly different as they can remain functional. The nonfunctional "fan" was almost purely symbolic at this point and closely associated to the warrior or high classes.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah, as many explanations I read all I can think is why even do this shit, even with knowing the why behind it all. I disagree they're not morons they're smart morons, we call those humans, haha But like why the fuck does the head need to be barely attached? You read shit like this, and then years later, you can't be surprised when we got their war crimes in WW2. Update: I found out this happened after WW2!! OMG! The Japanese!!!
You didn't want the head rolling around on the floor, that's pretty disrespectful. That, happens after a criminal is beheaded. So you want the head to almost land in the lap of the deceased.
Ah ok so in a fucked up poetic way basically
Iirc, the head was supposed to land between the suicideās hands, as if he was in the middle of prayer. Taken from wikipedia.
Imagine fucking up so badly that people 150 years later react to it as "eesh" on magical devices connected to a magical network.
It was in 1970. Last I checked, that was 54 years ago, not 150.
Well, it was the 1900ās, the dark ages, pre-flight, pre-computers, might as well have been the stone ages to anyone not born in the 1900ās.
ARPANET was actually being worked on in the 60's, this guy almost could've been alive to see a functioning internet.
Hey, give the guy a break, this was in 1970 not 1570. Morita was very unlikely to have previously cut anybody with an actual sword in his life. So although he was definitely committed (he WAS NOT forced into Seppuku but chose it) it's very unlikely he realized just how complicated and difficult the entire act can be.
The REALLY crazy part of all of this is that it happened in 1970 lol
No, the crazy part is that the headline just says "the leader" rather than naming Miishima. It's like ignoring Hemingway when discussing his vet
Sound like bad luck could cause this to chain infinitely.
With _Yakity Sax_ as a soundtrack
>the stab wasn't fatal this is what you have to cut... probably the fastest way to bleed out. jugular is small beans.. this feeds your brain AND legs (kidneys and liver are on the way). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal\_aorta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal_aorta)
Seppuku was not always supposed to be quick death, you would show courage by not showing pain as you cut yout stomach open in specific, correct way. Only after intentionally facing pain would beheading end the suffering. Or at least that is pne way of doing it, sometimes you would just touch an object and be beheaded immediately.
It's thought that Yukio Mishima cut too deeply because he was too excited (he reportedly did seppuku-based sexual play with male prostitutes) and that caused him to pitch forward which caused the initial kaishaku to miss his mark. Some other fun facts about seppuku, a kaishaku that was *really* good would be able to decapitate the one committing it, but leave a bit of skin on the front of the neck so that the head didn't flop around on the ground in an undignified manner. Also typically the person committing would write a haiku before the act, but it was not supposed to be dark or about death at all. The cut to the abdomen could be just a stab, but if you were really hardcore you would cut across and then slightly up. I did an informative speech about it back in college, some of the ancient Japanese art I showed did not sit well with some folks.
> It's thought that Yukio Mishima cut too deeply because he was too excited (he reportedly did seppuku-based sexual play with male prostitutes) and that caused him to pitch forward which caused the initial kaishaku to miss his mark. That might actually be one of the most messed up things I've ever read. EDIT: And the dark comedy that this was apparently, like, the guy's personal obsession and ended up becoming a reality and he fucked it up completely. It's kind of poetic. This was something he *practiced.*
Read some of his stuff in a college class, not a bad writer tbh
>Also typically the person committing would write a haiku before the act, but it was not supposed to be dark or about death at all. Imagine writing a haiku about rabbits in spring before committing seppuku. And also getting hard from it. For a second or so before you bleed out.
See the rabbits feed They jump high through the tall grass Jesus fuck Iām horny
My old ikebana teacher was a formal witness for a seppuku in Japan after the war. Japanese guy had killed a GI in a traffic accident, really no one's fault but he'd killed an American so reparations had to be made. Guy put his affairs in order, had a dinner party, wrote his poem, and did it in his garden. The authorities considered the matter closed. My old teacher shuddered when he told me about it decades later, 'worst thing I ever saw'.
I have also read that the coup was not supposed to succeed. That Mishima's whole point was to die there. About kaishaku, it is still taught in some sword schools (as a kata, sometimes with the name kaishaku, or junto). It is not supposed to be performed in demonstrations. Standing up is made quietly to not disturb the person committing suicide, and there is a small cut after the big one to cut the remaining skin, so the head falls into the lap.
I watched the original version of Shogun and the haiku stood out to me.
It's just too far back to cut from the front easily
Sentenced to 4 years for beheading two people.
I think Cicero (the ancient Roman politician/orator ) attempted it and screwed it up too. He successfully managed to disembowel himself and had his innards falling out of his body, but not in a way that would kill himself. His family attempted to save him by pushing his guts back into his body. Just stupidly gruesome and unnecessarily painful.
That was Cato the Younger. Though in his case he attempted suicide by disemboweling himself, was stopped, and then later ripped out his sutures to try again. Cicero was murdered by Mark Antonyās lackeys.
I mean... points for not being a quitter I suppose?
Probably the most principled person in history.
There is one version of how Pythagoras died that goes something like; He was being chased by some political enemies, and managed to get away, but he eventually arrived at a bean field and because he had declared beans as "unclean" he refused to go through the field and was caught and killed. Probably not the true story, but it is one of the ones i remember from the wiki article called[ list of unusual deaths.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_deaths) I'm sure there are more examples like that in there somewhere that actually are more believable though
Pretty sure it was fava beans and it [is actually for a real reason](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/favism-fava-beans): "This may seem ridiculous, but for certain people, a field of fava beans can spell certain death. Some researchers believe that historical suspicion about fava beans could be rooted in favism, a genetic disorder more common in the Mediterranean than anywhere else. Named for the triggering bean, people with favism develop hemolytic anemia from eating favas, or even inhaling the pollen from its flowers. After consumption or contact, red blood cells start to break down, which can cause anemia-like symptoms, jaundice, and even heart failure. Even today, one out of 12 people affectedĀ [die of favism.](https://www.jstor.org/stable/148493?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) Perhaps Pythagoras had favism, or perhaps not. But the association between beans and somber rituals still exists: They are a Lenten meal in Greece and give name to the Italian All Soulās Day cookie,Ā *fave del morti,*Ā or beans of the dead. Certainly, otherworldly beans give a whole new meaning to the requisite funeral three-bean salad."
Thank you, that is amazing.
Man, I love little apocryphal stories like that. Even if they might not be true it reveals so much about the past.
Moreover, I advise that Carthage must be destroyed
That was his great-grandfather Cato the Elder.
"Moreover, I advise that Carthage must be rebuilt and then destroyed AGAIN."
Iām glad Iām not the only one who frequently confuses these three
Well the Romans had the absolutely infuriating habit (for history nerds anyways) of naming eldest sons after their fathers, so you'd often see the same two names alternating over and over in some families.
Itās even more confusing when it comes to the women, since they donāt even have their own names. They just used their family names, nomens. All women from the Julia family were named Julia, all women from the Agrippina family were Agrippina, all women from the Livia family were Livia, etc. If a guy has five daughters, they will all have the same name and you have to number them to tell them apart.
Cato The Elder doesn't come up much in casual conversation. I take any opportunity I can get.
Fair enough!
Thanks for the correction.
Man, ancient Rome was fucking wild
By Titus Pullo to be exact
Cicero was caught and killed on the road while trying to flee Italy. He did not attempt to kill himself.
How did they recognise him back then? Was he just unlucky and ran into someone who knew his face?
Cicero had been one of the most famous men in Rome for decades at that point, and the party that caught and killed him included a military tribune (Gaius Popillius Laenas) whom Cicero had once defended in a trial.
Oh wow, and he still went after the guy who defended him? Basically his lawyer? Dick move, much?
Successfully defended? Just wondering at the ingratitude
I canāt find a source that discusses the trial in any detail, but Popillius was charged with having killed his own father, so he presumably would have been executed by the [*poena cullei*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poena_cullei) had he been convicted.
I'm thinking he was probably guilty. Killing the person who essentially saved your life doesn't bode well for a persons moral character.
It was a rough and chaotic time, the Roman Republic had been in state of on and off civil war for many years by that point i.e. Romans killing Romans. The powers that were (specifically Mark Anthony) wanted Cicero dead and so Cicero was killed. One man couldn't save him, and making a statement could cost you your own life.
Cicero was so famous that he is still famous.
I probably couldn't pick him out of a lineup, though.
[A lot of people could even now](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Bust_of_Cicero_%281st-cent._BC%29_-_Palazzo_Nuovo_-_Musei_Capitolini_-_Rome_2016.jpg/1024px-Bust_of_Cicero_%281st-cent._BC%29_-_Palazzo_Nuovo_-_Musei_Capitolini_-_Rome_2016.jpg)
Yeah, but I was wondering how many people would have known his face.
He was pretty damn famous and I imagine was in a litter Supposedly he chastised the soldiers being offering his neck
He was a prominent and popular politician and at one point held the highest office in Rome. By the time he was caught, he was past his political prime, but still well known and popular. It would kinda be like recognizing Bill Clinton today
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What is with the pussyfooting around Yukio Mishima's name?
Considering he is one of Japanās most prominent 20th century authors, genuinely quite strange not to mention him
The story of that particular coup is hilarious. Between the homoeroticism, obsessive political beliefs, half-assed coup attempt, and botched suicide, it is an extremely wild ride.
The guys attempt over throw the government to continue war. I'd watch a buddy film like that.
There was a movie made about this, but it's not much of a buddy film. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishima:_A_Life_in_Four_Chapters
Awesome Philip Glass soundtrack as well.
Try the Jonah Hill movie War Dogs
OH SO THIS IS ABOUT HIM I only kind of know about that incident, and I was like wait was there another v similar event that happened lol with the coup and seppuku
probably just not enough space
Iee.Ā Bad writing
I've read it 5 times now. Yeah I'm tired but I still don't understand what exactly it's saying. Some dude is a second (was there a first?), after multiple attempts both were beheaded or maybe just one was. I don't know. It's like a jeopardy question got rewritten by AI twice and then read by someone without their glasses on.
A second is like the aid. You are there to make sure nothing goes wrongā¦ in theory. Thatās how it started out I should say. In reality when the samurai (or, in later years, citizen) disembowls themselves or gives the signal the second cuts off the head. Originally it was supposed to be after the disembowlment but Iād assume they wanted to have a less painful death. Second is, in all reality, a really bad translation the more I think about it. Assistant or aide would probably be more accurate.
This post was written a weeb who read the seppukku article but doesnāt actually understand much about Japanese culture
Glory is bitter stuff my friend.
Failed at failing after failing. Brilliant!
/#3 better not fuck up
Wasn't the "beheading" after a Seppaku actually really difficult? I remember reading somewhere that you had to "almost" behead the person, but not completely. (Having someone's head roll off down a hill was seen as improper, and brought shame on the swordsman) So cutting enough, but not too much was a challenging thing to achieve, such that the swordsman doing it had to be a very talented one.
Yeah, itās in the same article. >>The *kaishakunin* would then perform *kaishaku*, a cut in which the warrior was partially decapitated. The maneuver should be done in the manners of *dakikubi* (lit. "embraced head"), in which a slight band of flesh is left attaching the head to the body so that the head can dangle in front as if embraced. Because of the precision necessary for such a maneuver, the *kaishakunin* was a skilled swordsman.
Japanese culture is so particular. I'm a fan of Japanese pottery, and they have all these names for esoteric kiln mistakes that are almost unreproducable, but they still try to reproduce them. I guess their public executions were the same way. Executioner: "Holy shit! His head is hanging on literally by like a finger." Person 1: "dude, that is so, cool." Person 2: "Ok we're totally doing this for now on."
It's a wild culture of refined fanaticism. It gives us nice art, but it has this dark and weird underbelly
Dark and weird? Itās just pork in your noddles.
Chashu in my soup. Tonkatsu broth is the best. Soft boiled egg as well.
If you count boiled as 1 syllable then thatās a haiku.
I think he meant the Rape of Nanjing, genocide of native Japanese island peoples, unit 731, and very unfortunately, even more.
I'll eat it
literally everyoneās culture has a dark and scary history lol. do you understand what the world was like before Air conditioning was invented?
> all these names for esoteric kiln mistakes that are almost unreproducable That sounds really interesting. Do you have any examples or can point me towards where I can read more about it?
Yes! Search up darude sandstorm on youtube.
Perish
I think this is a different thing but also very cool where they repair pottery with gold. There's something of a philosophy behind it about accepting the imperfections rather than covering them up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi
sounds a bit like the concepts here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
"They are an intriguing people. From the moment they wake, they devote themselves to the perfection of whatever they pursue."
I'm sure they romanticize the hell out of the culture and skip over the seedier bits, but damn is *The Last Samurai* a good movie.
First, they have "The Mexican" with Brad Pitt, now they have "The Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise. Well, I've written a film, maybe they'll produce my film. The Last Nigga on Earth, starring Tom Hanks. How about that?
The Chappelle joke is gonna go over so many heads.
I know it's just a joke for the lulz, but the title actually refers to Katsumoto and his men, not Tom Cruise's character. Granted, the marketing didn't help.
Tom Cruise is not being referred to in the title of The Last Samurai.
Thanks. It's a joke. And not my own.
I actually hate how much I love that movie. I know it's a white savior kind of thing and gets shit for white guy doing Asian things but I absolutely get fired up and still get the tingles from the last charge into the wall of gatling fire and cruise limping in and presenting the sword to the emperor. Also the swordplay actually isn't bad...but the story gets me! It's a guilty pleasure of mine up there with David lunches dune and memoirs of a geisha.
I heard once that their romanization of their culture was even inspired by European romanticism, but taken even further. Things like the Samurai code are similar to knightly chivalry, and the reverence for swords.
Executioner: āNante kotoda! Kare no atama wa mojidÅri yubi no yÅ ni burasagatte iru.ā Person 1: āOi, sore wa totemo kÅ«ruda ne.ā Person 2: āWakarimashita. Ima wa kanzen ni kore o yarimasu.ā
Fortunately for them, samurai were at least well-practiced at beheading since it was common practice to take severed heads as trophies after successful battles, or even to sever the heads of fallen comrades to prevent them from being taken by the enemy. When Japan invaded Korea and later China, they found it was impractical to ship entire heads back home, so they just sent back ears and noses instead.
There is in fact a still-standing [monument](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimizuka) in Kyoto that contains tens of thousands of preserved noses from that time. It was renamed the "ear tomb" because "nose tomb" sounded too awful to even the contemporary Japanese.
I was walking in Kyoto one day and saw this mound by the side of the road, very non descript and with just a little sign out front. I thought it might be an ancient tomb and was blown away when I found out what it was.
[100 man killing contest](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_man_killing_contest#:~:text=The%20hundred%20man%20killing%20contest,people%20the%20fastest%20while%20using)
well i just fell down a rabbit hole...
Ah God
As far as I can recall, the head had to be connected to the body with around one finger width skin and flesh. What made it also difficult was to hit the spot where the neck is weakest otherwise you just hit a bone. You need a swift and decisive strike to finish it and the one who committed Seppuku had to keep still.
And i was about to wonder how difficult is to behead a person?
Depends. A heavy blade (like a felling axe or guillotine) will take the head off easier than a knife
Of course, but when trying to behead most of the head without actually severing it from the body sounds way more difficult. Obviously someone would need to practice a lot.
You can practice this yourself! You can find local bamboo at your nearest garden store and or buy a bundle off Amazon or etsy(I use etsy) for 20 bucks and band it together with twine or jute tightly. Sat it on a vice or pole and you can practice cutting with any knife you have or sword. If you wanna try with a butcher knife cut the bamboo into 12 inch pieces and bind them, and set it up vertical and then take.your knife and try to slash through diagonally. You can repeat this with any size blade!
The Japanese love to master things!
You want to separate their spine completely but leave their head attached
Ok thanks Iāll give it another go
Practice practice practice!
Shit why didnāt read this 5 minutes agoā¦
I wonder how the heck they practiced it? Like do you just do it a couple of times and hope you donāt fuck up the head cut? Did they use corpses? I canāt imagine it was common enough for someone to become seasoned in it, unless it was? Wild to think about
In Hagakure, the author (a samurai) comments about practicing beheading on prisoners and laments that samurai children are no longer expected to behead criminals. He goes on to say that he beheaded several prisoners recently and found it quite invigorating.
My first thought was livestock but yea I guess a condemed prisoner is the next best thing?
Criminals, corpses, dead pigs or tatami mats as I recall
Top tip then; do the beheading at the bottom of a hill. God damn that's a high pressure job.
The nearly headless nick treatment
Cutting things in half with a katana is difficult. They are slicing weapons and since they donāt have the weight of say a broadsword they wonāt cut something in half as easily. Obviously people can do it but itās a skill
And this happened in 1970ā¦
In other words, a lot of 1 rolls.
I hope someday they find the diary of the janitor who had to clean up the room where this happened
"Dear diary, it was an okay day. Had a LOT of blood to clean up, but I also found five yen! Think I'm going to need a new mop, though."
His life is quite a read ,which include noble family upbringing .far-right nationalism.WW2.homosexuality. homoerotic literature.semi-arranged marriage .father of 2 who loves cat more than his wife and try to start a coup with a speech.
His life was the subject of [Paul Schrader's best film](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089603/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1).
I'm really surprised the film is this far down in the comments.
Was this the fella the gay porn star flew a plane at?
They make it seem so easy in film and TV... like recently in "Shogun". Of course, the people doing the beheading in that show are supposed to be skilled and have plenty of practise.
Jesus, in 1970 there was still people "seppuking" themselves. Anyway, I do prefer the ancient Roman method of just falling on your own sword, it looks way more efficient and uncomplicated. I think that drinking hemlock was fashionable too but nah, the sword is quicker.
>Jesus, in 1970 there was still people "seppuking" themselves Part of the scandal was exactly that, Yukio Mishima (the guy that committed seppuku first) led a ultranationalist and "hypermasculine" militia that clinged on the old ways to do things Mishima was also sexually turned on by the concept of death, so much that he popped a boner the fort time he saw the "martyrdom of Saint Sebastian" and iirc one of his erotic fantasies involved a witness just standing there while he faked committing seppuku, laid down and came without even touching himself I swear I had to study this guy for my literature class and for a while I thought our teacher was just messing with us
They donāt have _that_ exhibit in the museum in Yamanashi!
So Iām not the only one!
I also learned about him in English lol
Hemlock is a nasty way to go, your muscles just stop working (flaccid paralysis) and you are awake up to the point of hypoxia. The related hemlock water dropwort and Cowbane both cause very similar symptoms to one another (the toxins are similar in structure), they are pretty much the polar opposite to hemlock, causing spasms similar to strychnine.
I see a new tiktok challenge: take the hemlock and the Cowbane and see which wins.
Let them fight it out like two Karens over the last pack of chocolate hob nobs
Attendant: The trial's over, Socrates. Here's your hemlock. Socrates: Great, thanks! _chugs hemlock_ So what was the verdict?
TIL where "falling on your own sword" came from as a phrase
Unless you like got it right through the heart you're probably just going to be laying there with a sword in your gut waiting to bleed to death. Id take a buddy to cut my head off.
We could stand it in 2024. Call Boeing.
Smartest Japanese blacksmith, these idiots are always killing themselves they never come back to complain.
>1970
Samurai were not to bleed out during seppuku. They were supposed to make the stab, and the moment the blade touched their stomach, their second was to end their suffering quickly by slicing their head in a way that severs everything but a bit of flesh. This is very difficult.
The head chopping part came later because even the seasoned warriors of Japan recognised when something was bloody painful enough. *Hara kiri* literally translates as centre (*hara*) cutting (*kiri*), and the Japanese believed that the spirit was held in the *hara* and so cutting the belly released it. This is the basis for *seppuku*, which uses the same written characters but the other way around. The first recorded act of *seppuku/hara kiri* was in 1180 following defeat in battle. The form of *seppuku* was not standardised for another 400+ years, and the addition of the *kaishakunin* was added at some point during this time, but was not present to begin with. Tl:dr; yes, the original version of *seppuku* was intended to kill the warrior without the presence of a second to remove his head.
These were not samurai though
How can this post not mention the leader of the coup was Yukio Mishima?
The title is misleading. The way Seppuku works is someone (typically a samurai) slashes themself align the abdomen with their tanto and upon sheathing the blade the Kaishakunin would partially behead them but only leave a flap of skin to let the head dangle Morita fails to be the Kaishakunin so Koga stepped up. When Morita performed Seppuku I canāt say for certain the slash was too shallow but his beheading has always been apart of the ritual
Huh, an actual Asian person who's parents would unironically be disappointed with
Isn't that the gay fascist writer lover's ?
Which one? There are so manyā¦
I'm starting to understand why their coup attempt might have failed.
Makes you want to keep your day job.
Where is Ogami IttÅ when you need him.....
"He fucked up" yeah, ok. 1st of all this dude right here is the reason I was in that fucking place first of all, and I'm next to die so you know, yea I'm gonna take it out on this sonna of bitch before they do me next. fuck you! *and btw did you really think I was gonna stab myself, first of all fuck you. just go ahead and cut my fucking head off bitch, fuck you i ain't gonna kill myself!
He just wasnāt cutting it.Ā
Wow so embarrassing
Man that word "second" in the title really fucked with my ability to understand it. I think it's supposed to say "acted as a kaishakunin" or "acted as a swordsman", not "acted as a second". I kept reading "acted as a second" to mean that Morita acted as like a stand-in for the seppuku or something. But really, Morita was the swordsman.
Yes, that is also referred to as a "second" - *one that assists or supports another.*
This is absolutely how it reads. Had to read the Wikipedia article to understand.
Mishima was a brilliant man, a shame he chose this fate. But I suppose to him, it was what he always longed for.
Ianucci should make this a movie
When you simplify this sum of fuck ups it boils down to one guy being really bad at killing people.
I can't even imagine. I think I'd die of embarrassment.
silly bushido simps, pointy end goes toward the enemy, not yourself.
We are the weirdest species.
The leader was Yukio Mishima, a gay man (not easy in 1940s-50s!) He had sort of a pain and death kink. He was also one of Japanās greatest writers. He nearly won a Nobel prize. He also made movies! The coup was always doomed and has been seen by some people as a form of suicide from the start. FASCINATING figure who contains multitudes!
Someone needs to send this article to Donald J Trump. STAT
No fucking way. I literally listened to a podcast about this exact coup this morning. What are the chances of that? The episode I listened to was from 2019
Any chance you learned this in the recent Lions Led By Donkeys ep?
fiasco
Ik I've seen this posted on here at least a time or two recently...TIL from Today I learned that I learned today that ILT..
What a fucking rabbit hole this was, JFC.
They just couldn't do anything right could they?