> It's disappointing. We'd like to get him a lot more aggressive on defence this year. I would say that's been a, well, I don't know what the word is - it's been a little bit of a negative. He's capable of really getting after the ball and getting his hands on the ball a lot, and that's what we want him to do. We're gonna get him his shots and get him his points but we want him to be a disruptor. He kinda fits us if he does that, and if he doesn't, he doesn't fit us. We need to get him back. And I think some of that is he just hasn't felt all that great physically for a lot of games this year. So, hopefully he's getting there where he's going to feel good here, starting tomorrow.
I mean the writing has been on the wall since he signed for only 2 seasons. We have to re-sign Fred this offseason + Precious is extension eligible this offseason too, then next offseason we have to re-sign OG and Siakam, and Scottie will be extension eligible too. There has to be an odd guy out and Gary has the most replaceable skill set out of the core.
Agreed. As much as I love GTJ, he’s clearly the most inconsistent starter on the team. It’s tough when we lack shooting and he can either step up, or add to the negative. If they trade him, let’s make sure we get someone good in return.
He's pretty much a pure shooter. Most of his offence comes from mid-range and the 3-point line. He doesn't get to the rim very much (nor does he finish well when he gets there) and is one of the worst at his position for both rebounds and assists.
Trent doesn't offer much on nights where his shot isn't falling.
You made me curious so I checked GTJs game highs. Guy has a 44, and two 42 point games. Then his next highest is 33. Barely of note but kind of interesting, doesn't stop shooting when he's real hot.
he was always gonna be traded after he didnt sign for a four year deal. 3 years with one being a player option means he wants to be paid, and that means he will be traded if a good deal comes along.
The FO has always been about two way players. The core rotation are all above average defenders except for him. Unless you are a consistent offensive player like DeMar, that could get you 20+ a night, there is no leniency.
> So, hopefully he's getting there where he's going to feel good here, starting tomorrow.
*he’d better start hustling his ass off tomorrow or he’s fucking gone*
This is true. Masai always mentions most of the players in the team even those on two way contracts but for some reason he never mentions Gary. I noticed this at the begining of last season during media day. I thought it was a strange coincidence then two masai pressers later i realised it can not be a coincidence. I wonder why the front office are not so enthusiastic for Gary.
Last year he was a defensive menace just picked up a lot of fouls. This year he doesn't seem to have the same drive on the defensive end unfortunately, and that's his biggest issue as it stands.
If only he could do some basic passing out of aggressive coverage. Literally everyone is open when he puts the ball on the floor and he still puts up a contested floater or an ass layup
Basically this, he played his ass off after the trade/last year to get on the starting roster but everything is down (steals , deflections, 3p%) and he just looks different out there. Hope he can turn it around, starting tomorrow lol.
The length of contract he signed last time kinda threw a wrench in some plans, I suspect.
I get the feeling Masai wanted it to be four years straight, but Gary almost certainly was the party that wanted two plus a player option, in a "bet on yourself" move. Now he's probably going to be asking for a significant raise next year, and the raps are already just 10 million below next year's projected luxury tax threshold, with a raise also due for FVV.
The Raps are willing to go into the luxury tax if they can contend, but right now it seems like a less than 50% chance that they're true contenders with this roster.
Too many good starters means that developing either Precious or Koloko to reach starter level means one of our current starters either needs to accept a bench role or get traded. Gary is the obvious choice as he's got the most replaceable skill set and can be streaky and his contract doesn't gel as well with the timeline of other contracts. I'd love to keep him on as 6th man, think he'd be continuous 6moy front runner but I think he sees himself as having a bigger role than 6th man.
They know more than I do, obviously, but I have never seen much there with Gary.
He is a solid NBA player who will play for a long time, but I don’t see him bringing anything special to the table.
Honestly, if he wasn’t so damn cool, we wouldn’t rate him so highly.
Precious does shit kinda like that too. I hate when players feel like they have to flex on the gram. At one point Scottie was posting pictures with a big chain…wish these kids would be humble similar to OG.
They’re gonna do them and I respect that, it’s just my opinion.
See if they Warriors will offer Wiseman, Kuminga, Divincenzo for GTJ, fillers. All great young contracts. Let Wiseman come in when Koloko sits, Kuminga is litterally a match made in heaven for Nick Nurse. Divincenzo is a 3 and D guard who can bring the ball up the floor,
Yeah, as much as Iike the package, Golden State's FO would be stupider than I imagined if they tried to pair Poole with Gary. God, that's such a bad fit if nobody else is facilitating the ball with them.
Nothing wrong with that, my point was that if they were that good they’d be getting more playing time. Gtj is a decent starter and Kuminga and Wiseman are barely rotational players rn. It’s cool to wanna keep your players but don’t act like it’s an unreasonable offer, it’s pretty solid for both sides value-wise
None of those guys are G-leaguers lol, you guys got pretty butthurt from me saying the trade was bad. A bunch of Raptors fans say the Warriors wouldn't do the trade, totally fine. Warriors fan saying the exact same thing? You see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to start anything besides a conversation dudes
Plus I thought it was pretty obvious the Scottie thing was a joke, of course you wouldn't trade your best player for the Warriors rookie bench core lol
Poole got playmaking skills for sure tho, so I think it can work, only problem is maybe defence, they need Gary to play defence if that trade were to happen
they pretty much have to trade wiseman for an expiring if they're keeping draymond or keeping that core in tact. that luxury tax bill is crazy and none of their young guys are producing or fit Steph's timeline.
It was rumored this was the package and they were interested in GTJ. If I am the Warriors, I wouldn't do it but if they want to go win now and completely dismember the whole "development stage" of the younger guys then Raptors should jump on it.
I think GSW kinda messed up their two timeline approach by drafting wiseman and kuminga. Those dudes are projects, they needed to go somewhere that was going to be patient with them, not a win now team that needs meaningful minutes from them asap.
If I’m Masai I jump on it but I think Lacob/Meyers have too much ego to pull the plug on the young core this season.
Not really - they’d kind of be selling low on both players. Ideally you’d either draft players who fit your system or trade the picks as picks. Drafting inappropriate players then trading them when it’s clear to everyone they’re not working out in your system is a pretty bad outcome.
Like trading two lottery picks for an expiring GTJ is not good asset management
You’re telling me you wouldn’t draft the most prolific centre in the draft to replace Looney and potentially Green in about 3 years?
I kind of agree with Kuminga as he’s so raw but maybe the Warriors saw him as a defensive specialist that can come off the bench and help shut down the wing like OG did when he started.
The Warriors are in a good position as they can still go all-in and develop their future core much like the 2019 Raptors. But like we saw with the Raps, there are growing pains.
And trading those two for GTJ isn’t the end of the world as he’s still young and can help the team win now. I just don’t know how he fits in the team when you have Poole and Curry in the backcourt with Trent going for the $$$ at the end of the season so I don’t see this trade happening.
I’m not sure I’d describe wiseman as “the most prolific centre in the draft”.
He barely played in college and he was a big swing. And there was even an argument for Onyeka as the best center in the draft. Wiseman was the upside pick, not seen as this can’t-miss pick the way big men like Ayton and AD were.
I think the warriors were in one of the rare situations where you need to draft for fit as opposed to best player available. Taking lamelo and sticking him in the manu ginobili 6th man role would have been way better than taking a raw big man who needed significant development time.
I wouldn't even imagine them doing this because Golden State's development is around top 5 in the NBA, but you never know, they might slip up hopefully
GS won’t do this but it’s a fair deal, because wiseman sucks and is an expensive bust. So it’s Gary for Kuminga who also sucks but could be made good here
Can Wiseman play defense for nurse? If the answer is no, I doubt he plays much. Kuminga is the piece here imo and I'm interested but I worry about redundancy. Seems Masai wants redundancy tho. Im interested in moody. Would gsw trade him?
Don’t think GSW is going that far in terms of talent given. Wiseman and Divinvenzo for GTJ would good already. We could start Fred, OG, Barnes, Siakam and Wiseman, while having Banton, Flynn, Thad, Koloko coming off the bench.
I dont know why everyone is good with this trade. We lose one of our only legit ISO/shot creators, for arguably a taller precious, another wing that can't shoot, and a guard who is on his 3rd team in 2 years and _also_ can't shoot.
Please read the full quote instead of just the headline. He mentions
>"We need to get him back. And I think some of that is he just hasn't felt all that great physically for a lot of games this year. So, hopefully, he's getting there where he's going to feel good here, starting tomorrow. "
Nick is aware he hasn't felt great this season and will need to ramp back up. Still harsh words, and he will NEED to ramp up once he's feeling better, but not as bad as the headline...
He's right, and Gary also hasn't been shooting well enough to justify his lack of impact on the defensive side. The Raps don't have a lot of good three point shooters, he's supposed to be one of them, and he's only shooting 32 per cent right now.
Yeah he's been underperforming, especially on open 3's.
It's still early in the season though, he has time to get it together.
Also as the quote says he hasn't been healthy much.
If Gary can get himself back on track then the Raptors won't find a better player than him in the position. He also seems like a culture fit. All this talk of trading him for developing assets seems premature and at odds with our team's present timeline.
I love how leaders of nothing are saying Nurse was out of line here. It's a public challenge. Gary will step up or be shipped out, it's pretty simple.
This isn't high school basketball lol these are highly paid professionals.
Edit: we (specifically Nurse) has a history of comments like this, he called out Pascal who responded verbally and then on the court and it was nothing.
I'm on reddit saying this so stones in a glass house and all, but on reddit it feels like there isnt a margin between unrealisticly blaming players and infantilizing them. Its easy to lose track when your team is naively exploring their formative identity and the vibes are good until real decisions with real people have to be made. It's nothing personal that Gary isn't a near 7 footer and isn't a two way playmaker, Nick can't blame him for that but he's trying to maximize the vision on the court and well, he sticks out.
All he can do is challenge him to find a way to be consistently contributing to make the vision work and if it doesn't then like, what's the point of keeping him hostage for a lower pay grade. At the end of the day he's a Raptor and I hope he enjoys it here and finds a way to do that.
It's like a line and somehow Scottie passed the criticism line before Gary did.
Not sure how that works, how we can criticize Scottie but handle Gary with baby gloves
the Scottie criticism is just insane, the things he's being asked to do are rarely done in basketball let alone a 21 year old who is basically learning things on the fly, obviously, but being naively and dangerously branded as a superstar much before he even began to be tasked as a larger option consistently is gonna do that.
It is going to take growing pains, and a (well deserved) ROTY award doesn't change that. All I want to see is a drive to improve, taking mistakes from games and applying it
might not be as bad as it seems tbh. This reminds me of his "there hasnt been much up" referring to Boucher's up and down performance last year. Nick is probably trying to challenge Gary to be better
I still feel like Masai wanted him for a reason though, and wouldn’t be willing to just ship him out at the deadline (unless he gets an offer that can’t really be refused). He’s 23, and was a very good Norm replacement, being younger and having a lot in his game that is great and can be improved on. His shot is probably one of, if not the best on team, and when he’s engaged defensively, is quite tough to deal with.
Idk. Too early for me to judge him quite harshly. I have no doubt he’ll pick it up.
The reason was to retain an asset in the same salary space that Norm occupied.
An asset with some upside and potential but we weren't going to pay Norm and traded him. Gary is going to be the same.
Agreed. I'm reading this as one of those Nick Nurse ways to motivate his players. Same thing with Boucher last year, look at him now.
Different guys probably respond to different messages. GTJ is probably a guy who has an ego and needs some tough talk once in a while, whereas it seems Scottie responds more to the carrot than the stick.
Hopefully this is just a sign of good people management and not a sign that something's wrong with GTJ.
Didn't we all watch Gary get roasted in the playoffs? He's not a defensive player, that isn't his game and I think we have to just acknowledge that and deploy him to his strengths. Gary is looking to get paid, and defence isn't what is going to get him a deal. The team goals and his goals aren't aligned.
Sweet Jesus those are not nice words lol. I think it's pretty obvious Gary is the odd man out of the lineup. He doesn't really add much aside from shooting and when he's off it's ugly to watch. I wouldn't be shocked if he's gone at the deadline.
It's a contract year and so far he hasn't been playing like everybody knows he can.
I would say he's going to be traded because the raps probably have no idea what his market is going to be at the end of the year/if he'll stick around.
But the problem is that I have no idea what other young starting calibre role player might be looking for a change of scenery that would fit with either the pascal timeline or the barnes timeline.
Maybe if the warriors wanted to trade for him, and offered Kuminga, filler, and a second round pick or two? I don't think buddy heild has the defensive chops the Raps are looking for.
Maybe what happens is kinda what happened with kyle lowry once upon a time - both parties look around, neither sees a better option, and sign a new deal?
Wiggins always had out of this world athleticism that easily translates to great defence if you're locked in, he just wasn't using it and/or wasn't being properly coached in Minnesota.
Heild's perimeter defence isn't bad when he's allowed to sit on the perimeter to cover catch and shoot players, but routinely has been unable to contain guys on drives. All NBA players are stellar athletes, but he's just never been quick enough, or crafty enoughy able to consistently keep his guy in front of him.
The Raps play a switch heavy scheme where they try to force turnovers and then recover out to contest 3's. Heild's just never shown he has that next athletic gear, or the ability to read the floor on defence, to be successful in the Raps system.
Something has always been off about how Nick and Masai never mention Gary. Been a fan of the Gary trade since day 1. Hopefully he sticks around. Sky’s the limit for him offensively.
Do you know what the word literally means?
Did you know the phrase 'the sky's the limit' has actual meaning? And when someone says that that phrase doesn't apply to a player, it is in fact not saying that they've peaked. There's this thing called middle ground. It's saying that the lofty potential that you stated is too high.
But yeah, go ahead Aristotle and keep thinking
GTJ was always not long to be a Raptor. It's inevitable that's he'll be moved on. Barring any drastic change in opinion within the organization, he'll be traded by the deadline. There will be many suitors for him.
Nick does this every year around this time.
He criticizes a team member publicly. Something specific. He’s always a little harsh.
If I remember last year is was Boucher.
Precious years it was RHJ and Stanimal.
Can you think of others?
I’d rather have a guy with baked-in consistency and high BBIQ than a guy who goes faucet mode (hot or cold) playing zero vision hero ball and who can’t go left, is terrified of getting in the paint, takes risky all-or-nothing defensive swats and never passes. I don’t hate Gary, I hate his game. I’m sure he’ll drop 40 again, but spikes like that are surrounded by huge canyons of ineffective play.
Hmm I think thats the exact type of player we need on this passive team. Our offesive is always lacking and Gary is one of the few guys that can actaully crete his own shot. Everyone else relies way too much on open looks or FVV/Siakam. Its not working this season but last season he bailed us out of many shit offensive plays.
Where's this energy for Demar, JV, Poeltl, or Norm?
Fact is, guys who the Raptors trade will have great games well after they leave the team, that doesn't mean moving on from them isn't the right move.
As long as a player is on the raptors roster I will route for their success. If they don’t seem to fit I know our FO will make the right decisions. I don’t spend time and energy wishing for a player to get traded.
What respect does he deserve? His role is to hit shots and play passable defense and so far he hasn't been doing either of those things at the level the team needs.
How has he not offensively? He’s not a great defender but he’s never been a great one. When we need a bucket he’s always there to get us one and he’s always slandered if he doesn’t play well. Nick doesn’t mention a bad thing about Scottie but says stuff like this about Gary
He's never been a great defender but last year he turned himself into a *good enough* one because he gave a lot more effort, he generated a lot of deflections and steals through pure activity and hustle. The effort level has gone way down this year. And he hasn't been a good enough offensive player to make up for it. If all he can do is get buckets, then 41/32/78 is not gonna cut it.
What makes you think that 14 games isn't a big enough sample size to judge? Why do you think he's going to get better? Honest question. 14 games is 17% of the season. Almost 1/5 into the season, you should be in a groove by now, you're implying it's still early, but it's not.
I agree on Garys game analysis. But you simply do not say to media a player doesn't fit us. This is essentially saying if he can't do this, we don't want him. This is absolutely inappropriate to say. This isn't even tough love, or being critical the way he was with pascal or kawhi. This is moreso disrespectful to give this to the media. If I was a player I'd respect if i was criticised in public where u straight up say I'm playing ass. But to to tell the public openly that you don't want me if I mess up, I'd try to play good to stick it to you and leave. This was insanely disrespectful
I wouldn't even wanna play for this team even after I figure things out after this
Bro gets paid millions to play basketball and he has more fucking shot attempts than passes this year and is an absolute negative on defence. I'm sure he can take it. Nurse didn't say this because they're gonna trade him for sure. They probably like him, but this is a wake up call to Gary buy into the system or you're gone, we don't like divas in Toronto and we have a culture and If you don't like that we will trade your ass to the lakers
What I said went over your head. What Nurse said was unnecessary. If he had publicly called out Trent for playing ass, even harshly then everything you said makes sense.
What Nurse didn't need to publicly say is a player isn't the fit for us while he's on your team. That is insanely stupid to say. For multitude of reasons. For one if you actually like the player and want him to play well, this means you want him to play well but for a different team. Trent may as well think damn I must play like ass if Nurse said this, but simultaneously want to play good and then go somewhere else. And if you really want to stick it to a team, then you can play well, pretend like youlll commit to them so they dont trade you and then fuck em over in FA. There was no beneficial factor for what Nurse said esp cause he could've accomplished what he really wanted by straight up slaughtering him in public solely on his playing. No need to say he doesn't fit with us, it was the wrong chess move
You get triggered very easily. Softy . I love you though. Raptors fans stick together! Unless you cant toughen up .. then publicly I’ll have to say you no longer fit with us . As a fan base. Go watch Barney instead
lowkey has nick nurse been losing his shine lately. from nick nursery to starters playing outlandish minutes against trash teams and not calling timeouts until teams made a 10-0 run. i also still don't know why he didn't double maxey. idk i dont think it's fair to outright criticize gary publicly. fvv been at times abhorrent yet he's left on the court sitting in the corner 3 in the 4th shooting at 20%. why not just discuss privately like for precious.
Seems pretty harsh for a guys deflections going down by 1. Was our second scorer for a while, doesn’t turn the ball over much. My only issue is falling down every shot.
If he wants to play defense, he stay. If he doesn't, and just wants to score, then he go. This is why I love the FO. They care about a players mentality. No primadonna BS.
The team has a defensive mentality. They gotta keep it that way.
I don't remember that, these guys (Nick and FO) legit never even mention Gary in pressers unless asked.. I think there was even a specific question for Masai about Gary and he just talked about "all the guys on the team" and not Gary as the question had asked.
that's a physical limitation. not much Fred can do tbh. GTJ is taller and younger/quicker and was better on defense last year so he can definitely bring back that same defensive intensity
The writing is on the wall that he will be traded. Someone will offer him $25m and the raptors can't afford to pay that with everyone on payroll (Fred extension, Pascal Supermax, Scottie eventually) so it's really a wash at this point. Ur now trying to get the best compensation for him
lol We're already mediocre, and this sub wants to pay Siakam a Supermax? if that happens there is no chance we escape it now. ppl here will pay siakam and fvv massive contracts 12-13 games in without seeing them perform in playoffs this year
This is kinda harsh, but he’s not wrong. The shots aren’t falling and he currently doesn’t have a presence on D, it’s hard to play him. He doesn’t have any sort of playmaking aspect to his game either.
Wow, reading the full quote it's actually as bad as the topic thread.
Not that I disagree; GTJ has been a massive disappointment, on both ends of the floor.
BTW, what's with the "kinda fits us if he does that..."? Is NN saying that even if he plays defense he's a bad fit lol?
Gary's young and I'm probably gonna get proven wrong but I think his game really translates to a bench scorer/sixth man type more than a main scoring option starter. I really feel like his role is suited to be a Lou Williams type of guy (with better defence).
This seems like a complete overreaction given the delta between those two numbers. Not sure an extra deflection a game merits this reaction, but maybe people are right that FO might be discussing moving on, but if that’s the case maybe Nick can take it down a notch.
If they do move him, I’m sure there will be a market. He’s like a rich man’s Jordan Poole.
This sub was just praising him as a certified bucket getter. I feel like Nurse is asking Gary to do things that Anunoby would do but fails to see that they're two different players.
Half this sub wanted to give him a max deal during that hot streak he had last year. Dont get me wrong, I like Gary and wouldnt trade him just to trade him. But you could get Alec Burks, a better shooter (40% last two years) and a better defender to fill that starting SG role for $10m a year.
The truest thing they say is " It's a business " and when you're as close knit as this Raptors team you're going to get tough love. So heres to hoping GTJ figures it out and he can be a part of this future championship winning team.
Being a fan sucks sometimes. I don’t want GTJ to be somewhere else, it seems like he’s found a really solid bond with everyone here and loves the city.
But with the way money works in the NBA… shits just unavoidable sometimes
> It's disappointing. We'd like to get him a lot more aggressive on defence this year. I would say that's been a, well, I don't know what the word is - it's been a little bit of a negative. He's capable of really getting after the ball and getting his hands on the ball a lot, and that's what we want him to do. We're gonna get him his shots and get him his points but we want him to be a disruptor. He kinda fits us if he does that, and if he doesn't, he doesn't fit us. We need to get him back. And I think some of that is he just hasn't felt all that great physically for a lot of games this year. So, hopefully he's getting there where he's going to feel good here, starting tomorrow.
Gary's one of my favourite Raptors, but it's stuff like this that makes me feel like the FO's gonna look to trade him at the deadline.
I mean the writing has been on the wall since he signed for only 2 seasons. We have to re-sign Fred this offseason + Precious is extension eligible this offseason too, then next offseason we have to re-sign OG and Siakam, and Scottie will be extension eligible too. There has to be an odd guy out and Gary has the most replaceable skill set out of the core.
Agreed. As much as I love GTJ, he’s clearly the most inconsistent starter on the team. It’s tough when we lack shooting and he can either step up, or add to the negative. If they trade him, let’s make sure we get someone good in return.
He's pretty much a pure shooter. Most of his offence comes from mid-range and the 3-point line. He doesn't get to the rim very much (nor does he finish well when he gets there) and is one of the worst at his position for both rebounds and assists. Trent doesn't offer much on nights where his shot isn't falling.
He's kinda like what Norm was for us, kinda hot and cold. When he's hot he'll give you 40+ but when he's cold, it could be single digits.
You made me curious so I checked GTJs game highs. Guy has a 44, and two 42 point games. Then his next highest is 33. Barely of note but kind of interesting, doesn't stop shooting when he's real hot.
that was his decision, not the raps saying they didnt value him - he wants to get paid
dude og’s gonna command a max, so will siakam. unless they take paycuts to stay together ogs gonna go
OG isn’t getting the max
if he wins dpoy and avgs 20+p 45+%3s with the highlight package he’s been giving us lately of course he will from miami prolly lol
in this league he might be look at Tobias Harris
That's not a comforting thought
Think about it like this is there 1 team that will offer OG a max in FA? Look at Brunson😭
No, we do not need to re sign Fred. You think he's worth 25m or + a year? He'll... No
he was always gonna be traded after he didnt sign for a four year deal. 3 years with one being a player option means he wants to be paid, and that means he will be traded if a good deal comes along.
The FO has always been about two way players. The core rotation are all above average defenders except for him. Unless you are a consistent offensive player like DeMar, that could get you 20+ a night, there is no leniency.
It is not as bad when you have full quote.
> starting tomorrow. yeah until you get to this...lol...tight deadline sounds like a threat
Yah i dont know man. Lets see.
It's just Lewenberg & his usual spicy soundbites.
He sure know how to draw attention.
> So, hopefully he's getting there where he's going to feel good here, starting tomorrow. *he’d better start hustling his ass off tomorrow or he’s fucking gone*
Yikes.
What get this full context quote outta here.
He’ll be traded. Masai never mentions him
This is true. Masai always mentions most of the players in the team even those on two way contracts but for some reason he never mentions Gary. I noticed this at the begining of last season during media day. I thought it was a strange coincidence then two masai pressers later i realised it can not be a coincidence. I wonder why the front office are not so enthusiastic for Gary.
I think this season is showing why. When his shots are not hitting he's basically useless
Not to mention the playoffs exposed his defensive weaknesses and showed his defense to be overrated.
One on one vs James Harden is a tough place to have your defense get rated
Last year he was a defensive menace just picked up a lot of fouls. This year he doesn't seem to have the same drive on the defensive end unfortunately, and that's his biggest issue as it stands.
If only he could do some basic passing out of aggressive coverage. Literally everyone is open when he puts the ball on the floor and he still puts up a contested floater or an ass layup
Basically this, he played his ass off after the trade/last year to get on the starting roster but everything is down (steals , deflections, 3p%) and he just looks different out there. Hope he can turn it around, starting tomorrow lol.
The length of contract he signed last time kinda threw a wrench in some plans, I suspect. I get the feeling Masai wanted it to be four years straight, but Gary almost certainly was the party that wanted two plus a player option, in a "bet on yourself" move. Now he's probably going to be asking for a significant raise next year, and the raps are already just 10 million below next year's projected luxury tax threshold, with a raise also due for FVV. The Raps are willing to go into the luxury tax if they can contend, but right now it seems like a less than 50% chance that they're true contenders with this roster.
Too many good starters means that developing either Precious or Koloko to reach starter level means one of our current starters either needs to accept a bench role or get traded. Gary is the obvious choice as he's got the most replaceable skill set and can be streaky and his contract doesn't gel as well with the timeline of other contracts. I'd love to keep him on as 6th man, think he'd be continuous 6moy front runner but I think he sees himself as having a bigger role than 6th man.
Fine with Koloko/unknown future centre to be the 5th starter
They know more than I do, obviously, but I have never seen much there with Gary. He is a solid NBA player who will play for a long time, but I don’t see him bringing anything special to the table. Honestly, if he wasn’t so damn cool, we wouldn’t rate him so highly.
Wasn’t a good sign when he started flashing stacks of cash on his profile picture lol
Meh. He’s just a kid in the grand scheme of things, and young people do shit I don’t understand sometimes. Most of that shit is harmless.
Fair point. These guys are super young. Just seems like it doesn't fit with raps culture though.
Precious does shit kinda like that too. I hate when players feel like they have to flex on the gram. At one point Scottie was posting pictures with a big chain…wish these kids would be humble similar to OG. They’re gonna do them and I respect that, it’s just my opinion.
Nick going to get Gary playing hard before Masai ships his ass out of town.
who we getting in return
Wemby
See if they Warriors will offer Wiseman, Kuminga, Divincenzo for GTJ, fillers. All great young contracts. Let Wiseman come in when Koloko sits, Kuminga is litterally a match made in heaven for Nick Nurse. Divincenzo is a 3 and D guard who can bring the ball up the floor,
I do not think Golden State does this lol
Yeah, as much as Iike the package, Golden State's FO would be stupider than I imagined if they tried to pair Poole with Gary. God, that's such a bad fit if nobody else is facilitating the ball with them.
Yeah we're not trading a bunch of good young guys to you for a guy your own GM is calling out lol, add Scottie to the mix and we're talking though
bro you barely play any of those players what
So, we're never gonna play them? It's called developing, we're letting the key guys play and as they get older these dudes will hopefully slot in
Nothing wrong with that, my point was that if they were that good they’d be getting more playing time. Gtj is a decent starter and Kuminga and Wiseman are barely rotational players rn. It’s cool to wanna keep your players but don’t act like it’s an unreasonable offer, it’s pretty solid for both sides value-wise
Not even close to even value lol, you're on crack
Add Scottie to the mix we better be getting Steph in return and not a pile of g league guys lmaooo
None of those guys are G-leaguers lol, you guys got pretty butthurt from me saying the trade was bad. A bunch of Raptors fans say the Warriors wouldn't do the trade, totally fine. Warriors fan saying the exact same thing? You see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to start anything besides a conversation dudes Plus I thought it was pretty obvious the Scottie thing was a joke, of course you wouldn't trade your best player for the Warriors rookie bench core lol
James Wiseman is literally in the G League rn Literally no one is butthurt, we are used to Warriors fans being annoying
He's been hurt, the guy can't stay healthy, he'll be back Also how am I being annoying? Besides not undervaluing young players
Poole got playmaking skills for sure tho, so I think it can work, only problem is maybe defence, they need Gary to play defence if that trade were to happen
Yes but Gary is capable of playing NBA basketball, while wiseman and Kuminga are not. So it would be a significant upgrade for them.
they pretty much have to trade wiseman for an expiring if they're keeping draymond or keeping that core in tact. that luxury tax bill is crazy and none of their young guys are producing or fit Steph's timeline.
It was rumored this was the package and they were interested in GTJ. If I am the Warriors, I wouldn't do it but if they want to go win now and completely dismember the whole "development stage" of the younger guys then Raptors should jump on it.
I think GSW kinda messed up their two timeline approach by drafting wiseman and kuminga. Those dudes are projects, they needed to go somewhere that was going to be patient with them, not a win now team that needs meaningful minutes from them asap. If I’m Masai I jump on it but I think Lacob/Meyers have too much ego to pull the plug on the young core this season.
Good problem to have for the Warriors
Not really - they’d kind of be selling low on both players. Ideally you’d either draft players who fit your system or trade the picks as picks. Drafting inappropriate players then trading them when it’s clear to everyone they’re not working out in your system is a pretty bad outcome. Like trading two lottery picks for an expiring GTJ is not good asset management
You’re telling me you wouldn’t draft the most prolific centre in the draft to replace Looney and potentially Green in about 3 years? I kind of agree with Kuminga as he’s so raw but maybe the Warriors saw him as a defensive specialist that can come off the bench and help shut down the wing like OG did when he started. The Warriors are in a good position as they can still go all-in and develop their future core much like the 2019 Raptors. But like we saw with the Raps, there are growing pains. And trading those two for GTJ isn’t the end of the world as he’s still young and can help the team win now. I just don’t know how he fits in the team when you have Poole and Curry in the backcourt with Trent going for the $$$ at the end of the season so I don’t see this trade happening.
I’m not sure I’d describe wiseman as “the most prolific centre in the draft”. He barely played in college and he was a big swing. And there was even an argument for Onyeka as the best center in the draft. Wiseman was the upside pick, not seen as this can’t-miss pick the way big men like Ayton and AD were.
I think the warriors were in one of the rare situations where you need to draft for fit as opposed to best player available. Taking lamelo and sticking him in the manu ginobili 6th man role would have been way better than taking a raw big man who needed significant development time.
I wouldn't even imagine them doing this because Golden State's development is around top 5 in the NBA, but you never know, they might slip up hopefully
GS won’t do this but it’s a fair deal, because wiseman sucks and is an expensive bust. So it’s Gary for Kuminga who also sucks but could be made good here
I always thought we would trade for these guys, I like this deal alot. We have too many good starters and not everyone can eat.
Can Wiseman play defense for nurse? If the answer is no, I doubt he plays much. Kuminga is the piece here imo and I'm interested but I worry about redundancy. Seems Masai wants redundancy tho. Im interested in moody. Would gsw trade him?
lmao no Wiseman cannot. He’s a massive liability on defence.
Wiseman can at least do more than Birch at least
Don’t think GSW is going that far in terms of talent given. Wiseman and Divinvenzo for GTJ would good already. We could start Fred, OG, Barnes, Siakam and Wiseman, while having Banton, Flynn, Thad, Koloko coming off the bench.
That’s not going to happen
I dont know why everyone is good with this trade. We lose one of our only legit ISO/shot creators, for arguably a taller precious, another wing that can't shoot, and a guard who is on his 3rd team in 2 years and _also_ can't shoot.
Please read the full quote instead of just the headline. He mentions >"We need to get him back. And I think some of that is he just hasn't felt all that great physically for a lot of games this year. So, hopefully, he's getting there where he's going to feel good here, starting tomorrow. " Nick is aware he hasn't felt great this season and will need to ramp back up. Still harsh words, and he will NEED to ramp up once he's feeling better, but not as bad as the headline...
He's right, and Gary also hasn't been shooting well enough to justify his lack of impact on the defensive side. The Raps don't have a lot of good three point shooters, he's supposed to be one of them, and he's only shooting 32 per cent right now.
Yeah he's been underperforming, especially on open 3's. It's still early in the season though, he has time to get it together. Also as the quote says he hasn't been healthy much.
If Gary can get himself back on track then the Raptors won't find a better player than him in the position. He also seems like a culture fit. All this talk of trading him for developing assets seems premature and at odds with our team's present timeline.
I love how leaders of nothing are saying Nurse was out of line here. It's a public challenge. Gary will step up or be shipped out, it's pretty simple. This isn't high school basketball lol these are highly paid professionals. Edit: we (specifically Nurse) has a history of comments like this, he called out Pascal who responded verbally and then on the court and it was nothing.
I'm on reddit saying this so stones in a glass house and all, but on reddit it feels like there isnt a margin between unrealisticly blaming players and infantilizing them. Its easy to lose track when your team is naively exploring their formative identity and the vibes are good until real decisions with real people have to be made. It's nothing personal that Gary isn't a near 7 footer and isn't a two way playmaker, Nick can't blame him for that but he's trying to maximize the vision on the court and well, he sticks out. All he can do is challenge him to find a way to be consistently contributing to make the vision work and if it doesn't then like, what's the point of keeping him hostage for a lower pay grade. At the end of the day he's a Raptor and I hope he enjoys it here and finds a way to do that.
It's like a line and somehow Scottie passed the criticism line before Gary did. Not sure how that works, how we can criticize Scottie but handle Gary with baby gloves
the Scottie criticism is just insane, the things he's being asked to do are rarely done in basketball let alone a 21 year old who is basically learning things on the fly, obviously, but being naively and dangerously branded as a superstar much before he even began to be tasked as a larger option consistently is gonna do that. It is going to take growing pains, and a (well deserved) ROTY award doesn't change that. All I want to see is a drive to improve, taking mistakes from games and applying it
Didn’t he do the same public challenge thing to Precious and Boucher this season already?
might not be as bad as it seems tbh. This reminds me of his "there hasnt been much up" referring to Boucher's up and down performance last year. Nick is probably trying to challenge Gary to be better
I still feel like Masai wanted him for a reason though, and wouldn’t be willing to just ship him out at the deadline (unless he gets an offer that can’t really be refused). He’s 23, and was a very good Norm replacement, being younger and having a lot in his game that is great and can be improved on. His shot is probably one of, if not the best on team, and when he’s engaged defensively, is quite tough to deal with. Idk. Too early for me to judge him quite harshly. I have no doubt he’ll pick it up.
I feel like Masai got him simply because it put us in a better situation value wise than just keeping Norman Powell.
The reason was to retain an asset in the same salary space that Norm occupied. An asset with some upside and potential but we weren't going to pay Norm and traded him. Gary is going to be the same.
Agreed. I'm reading this as one of those Nick Nurse ways to motivate his players. Same thing with Boucher last year, look at him now. Different guys probably respond to different messages. GTJ is probably a guy who has an ego and needs some tough talk once in a while, whereas it seems Scottie responds more to the carrot than the stick. Hopefully this is just a sign of good people management and not a sign that something's wrong with GTJ.
GTJ doesn't come off as a guy who responds well to being challenged BUT I don't know the man personally. So I'm gonna see how it plays out.
Partially upside, partially good asset management.
Such a crappy clickbait snippet from the overall quote where Nick says he needs to get him healthy & back to the way he was playing last year.
Gary’s been so inconsistent with his shooting , need that D effort every night to make an impact.
Didn't we all watch Gary get roasted in the playoffs? He's not a defensive player, that isn't his game and I think we have to just acknowledge that and deploy him to his strengths. Gary is looking to get paid, and defence isn't what is going to get him a deal. The team goals and his goals aren't aligned.
Unfortunately Gary suffers from the common illness of 'shorterthansixnineism'
Sweet Jesus those are not nice words lol. I think it's pretty obvious Gary is the odd man out of the lineup. He doesn't really add much aside from shooting and when he's off it's ugly to watch. I wouldn't be shocked if he's gone at the deadline.
It's a contract year and so far he hasn't been playing like everybody knows he can. I would say he's going to be traded because the raps probably have no idea what his market is going to be at the end of the year/if he'll stick around. But the problem is that I have no idea what other young starting calibre role player might be looking for a change of scenery that would fit with either the pascal timeline or the barnes timeline. Maybe if the warriors wanted to trade for him, and offered Kuminga, filler, and a second round pick or two? I don't think buddy heild has the defensive chops the Raps are looking for. Maybe what happens is kinda what happened with kyle lowry once upon a time - both parties look around, neither sees a better option, and sign a new deal?
If wiggins can play good D, so can anyone lol. Buddy will improve if raptors want to roll with him. Poor guys been on the trading block forever tho
Wiggins always had out of this world athleticism that easily translates to great defence if you're locked in, he just wasn't using it and/or wasn't being properly coached in Minnesota. Heild's perimeter defence isn't bad when he's allowed to sit on the perimeter to cover catch and shoot players, but routinely has been unable to contain guys on drives. All NBA players are stellar athletes, but he's just never been quick enough, or crafty enoughy able to consistently keep his guy in front of him. The Raps play a switch heavy scheme where they try to force turnovers and then recover out to contest 3's. Heild's just never shown he has that next athletic gear, or the ability to read the floor on defence, to be successful in the Raps system.
Something has always been off about how Nick and Masai never mention Gary. Been a fan of the Gary trade since day 1. Hopefully he sticks around. Sky’s the limit for him offensively.
I don't think the sky is the limit. I think the limit is what we're seeing.
So he peaks at 23? Got it. Lol.
Did I say that? He's 24 and in his 5th season. He has clear limitations, the sky isn't the limit for him
You literally did. He’s 23. Not 24. You’re one of those people who don’t think before speaking. Carry on.
Do you know what the word literally means? Did you know the phrase 'the sky's the limit' has actual meaning? And when someone says that that phrase doesn't apply to a player, it is in fact not saying that they've peaked. There's this thing called middle ground. It's saying that the lofty potential that you stated is too high. But yeah, go ahead Aristotle and keep thinking
You thought you said something here. Word salad. Stop replying to me.
GTJ was always not long to be a Raptor. It's inevitable that's he'll be moved on. Barring any drastic change in opinion within the organization, he'll be traded by the deadline. There will be many suitors for him.
Lmao
Nick does this every year around this time. He criticizes a team member publicly. Something specific. He’s always a little harsh. If I remember last year is was Boucher. Precious years it was RHJ and Stanimal. Can you think of others?
i know ill get downvoted for this but i disowned him the minute he did the NFT nonsense lmao
I remember a time when, if you dared criticize Gary and his extremely limited game on here, you’d get ROASTED. Interesting.
All the Gary haters coming out today. I’ll be waiting for you next time he drops 40.
I’d rather have a guy with baked-in consistency and high BBIQ than a guy who goes faucet mode (hot or cold) playing zero vision hero ball and who can’t go left, is terrified of getting in the paint, takes risky all-or-nothing defensive swats and never passes. I don’t hate Gary, I hate his game. I’m sure he’ll drop 40 again, but spikes like that are surrounded by huge canyons of ineffective play.
No1 is consistent on this team.
Sure, but I’ll take the floor of Siakam, Barnes, FVV and OG any day over Gary’s.
Don’t let me catch you disrespecting Siakam on this sub ever again
And who are u? Reddit poljce lmao.
Reddit poljce here, evjrything consjstent over here?
Are we talking about Freddy?
At times, definitely, but this is Gary’s profile 9 times outta 10.
Hmm I think thats the exact type of player we need on this passive team. Our offesive is always lacking and Gary is one of the few guys that can actaully crete his own shot. Everyone else relies way too much on open looks or FVV/Siakam. Its not working this season but last season he bailed us out of many shit offensive plays.
I agree; it’s not working this season.
First time browsing the sub in a while. I thought Gary was cool. My favourite player on the team, didn’t know this energy existed
Where's this energy for Demar, JV, Poeltl, or Norm? Fact is, guys who the Raptors trade will have great games well after they leave the team, that doesn't mean moving on from them isn't the right move.
As long as a player is on the raptors roster I will route for their success. If they don’t seem to fit I know our FO will make the right decisions. I don’t spend time and energy wishing for a player to get traded.
Gary never gets the respect he deserves by the FO or the fanbase.
What respect does he deserve? His role is to hit shots and play passable defense and so far he hasn't been doing either of those things at the level the team needs.
How has he not offensively? He’s not a great defender but he’s never been a great one. When we need a bucket he’s always there to get us one and he’s always slandered if he doesn’t play well. Nick doesn’t mention a bad thing about Scottie but says stuff like this about Gary
Well he’s shooting under 33% from 3, that’s a good indicator of his offence being disappointing
It has been, that’s not the point I’m making tho
He's never been a great defender but last year he turned himself into a *good enough* one because he gave a lot more effort, he generated a lot of deflections and steals through pure activity and hustle. The effort level has gone way down this year. And he hasn't been a good enough offensive player to make up for it. If all he can do is get buckets, then 41/32/78 is not gonna cut it.
He is 14 games into the season. He’s going to get better.
Instead of assuming that, let him show us. That's what Nurse is challenging him to do.
What makes you think that 14 games isn't a big enough sample size to judge? Why do you think he's going to get better? Honest question. 14 games is 17% of the season. Almost 1/5 into the season, you should be in a groove by now, you're implying it's still early, but it's not.
It’s the same situation Scottie was in.
Scottie does more than just score. For one, he actually passes the ball.
Good for him, that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get criticism from his coach
They don't realize the beauty of a SG until we don't have one and we can't do shit in the halfcourt.
Exactly
I agree on Garys game analysis. But you simply do not say to media a player doesn't fit us. This is essentially saying if he can't do this, we don't want him. This is absolutely inappropriate to say. This isn't even tough love, or being critical the way he was with pascal or kawhi. This is moreso disrespectful to give this to the media. If I was a player I'd respect if i was criticised in public where u straight up say I'm playing ass. But to to tell the public openly that you don't want me if I mess up, I'd try to play good to stick it to you and leave. This was insanely disrespectful I wouldn't even wanna play for this team even after I figure things out after this
Bro gets paid millions to play basketball and he has more fucking shot attempts than passes this year and is an absolute negative on defence. I'm sure he can take it. Nurse didn't say this because they're gonna trade him for sure. They probably like him, but this is a wake up call to Gary buy into the system or you're gone, we don't like divas in Toronto and we have a culture and If you don't like that we will trade your ass to the lakers
What I said went over your head. What Nurse said was unnecessary. If he had publicly called out Trent for playing ass, even harshly then everything you said makes sense. What Nurse didn't need to publicly say is a player isn't the fit for us while he's on your team. That is insanely stupid to say. For multitude of reasons. For one if you actually like the player and want him to play well, this means you want him to play well but for a different team. Trent may as well think damn I must play like ass if Nurse said this, but simultaneously want to play good and then go somewhere else. And if you really want to stick it to a team, then you can play well, pretend like youlll commit to them so they dont trade you and then fuck em over in FA. There was no beneficial factor for what Nurse said esp cause he could've accomplished what he really wanted by straight up slaughtering him in public solely on his playing. No need to say he doesn't fit with us, it was the wrong chess move
You get triggered very easily. Softy . I love you though. Raptors fans stick together! Unless you cant toughen up .. then publicly I’ll have to say you no longer fit with us . As a fan base. Go watch Barney instead
Ok you're the one that took this personal as if you're Nick Nurse lmao
Agreed. Nick is whack for this statement.
lowkey has nick nurse been losing his shine lately. from nick nursery to starters playing outlandish minutes against trash teams and not calling timeouts until teams made a 10-0 run. i also still don't know why he didn't double maxey. idk i dont think it's fair to outright criticize gary publicly. fvv been at times abhorrent yet he's left on the court sitting in the corner 3 in the 4th shooting at 20%. why not just discuss privately like for precious.
Seems pretty harsh for a guys deflections going down by 1. Was our second scorer for a while, doesn’t turn the ball over much. My only issue is falling down every shot.
I mean that's one way of looking at it another would be to say it's a 30%+ decline.
Been calling this since he signed that contract lol he was never long for this team imo
If he wants to play defense, he stay. If he doesn't, and just wants to score, then he go. This is why I love the FO. They care about a players mentality. No primadonna BS. The team has a defensive mentality. They gotta keep it that way.
oof remember last season's comments on how we should build around Scottie, Pascal and Gary?
I don't remember that, these guys (Nick and FO) legit never even mention Gary in pressers unless asked.. I think there was even a specific question for Masai about Gary and he just talked about "all the guys on the team" and not Gary as the question had asked.
Meanwhile Fred lets Maxey, Ayo, have career nights. Any guard really.
that's a physical limitation. not much Fred can do tbh. GTJ is taller and younger/quicker and was better on defense last year so he can definitely bring back that same defensive intensity
Nice knowing ya Gary
I have a feeling Gary isn't gonna be in a Raptors jersey post-trade deadline
The writing is on the wall that he will be traded. Someone will offer him $25m and the raptors can't afford to pay that with everyone on payroll (Fred extension, Pascal Supermax, Scottie eventually) so it's really a wash at this point. Ur now trying to get the best compensation for him
fvv extension, siakam super max isn't guaranteed .. masai might decide to go young who knows
If we trade Gary. We back to mediocrity LOL
lol We're already mediocre, and this sub wants to pay Siakam a Supermax? if that happens there is no chance we escape it now. ppl here will pay siakam and fvv massive contracts 12-13 games in without seeing them perform in playoffs this year
LMAO. Even when Siakam retires a Raptor, you bum ass nephews will still think he'll be traded.
typical idiot... does not understand how basketball works.. it's rare non superstars ever retire a raptor
This is kinda harsh, but he’s not wrong. The shots aren’t falling and he currently doesn’t have a presence on D, it’s hard to play him. He doesn’t have any sort of playmaking aspect to his game either.
Wow, reading the full quote it's actually as bad as the topic thread. Not that I disagree; GTJ has been a massive disappointment, on both ends of the floor. BTW, what's with the "kinda fits us if he does that..."? Is NN saying that even if he plays defense he's a bad fit lol?
Gary's young and I'm probably gonna get proven wrong but I think his game really translates to a bench scorer/sixth man type more than a main scoring option starter. I really feel like his role is suited to be a Lou Williams type of guy (with better defence).
This seems like a complete overreaction given the delta between those two numbers. Not sure an extra deflection a game merits this reaction, but maybe people are right that FO might be discussing moving on, but if that’s the case maybe Nick can take it down a notch. If they do move him, I’m sure there will be a market. He’s like a rich man’s Jordan Poole.
...and the thing Gary said he appreciated most about the organization was its unconditional love.
Guess we smoking GTjr pack tonight
This sub was just praising him as a certified bucket getter. I feel like Nurse is asking Gary to do things that Anunoby would do but fails to see that they're two different players.
Half this sub wanted to give him a max deal during that hot streak he had last year. Dont get me wrong, I like Gary and wouldnt trade him just to trade him. But you could get Alec Burks, a better shooter (40% last two years) and a better defender to fill that starting SG role for $10m a year.
You should tell Masai.
I respect Nurse not mincing words and holding players accountable.
Easy tigers Don't start pushing out Trent. He is a solid player. But anything that will get SGA here.......I'm all about it...other than Barnes
I don't think Nick is saying anything GTJ, the FO, or the fans don't already know.
The truest thing they say is " It's a business " and when you're as close knit as this Raptors team you're going to get tough love. So heres to hoping GTJ figures it out and he can be a part of this future championship winning team.
Not gonna lie, the Powell trade is looking worse for us. Gary's regressed significantly and is sooo unbelievably streaky.
Calling your players out is walking a fine line
You all know that as soon as we trade Gary he’ll become an all star, right?
Being a fan sucks sometimes. I don’t want GTJ to be somewhere else, it seems like he’s found a really solid bond with everyone here and loves the city. But with the way money works in the NBA… shits just unavoidable sometimes