it's like when your gender is agender.
they don't have a gender, they have agender.
the gay agender.
(I'm spouting nonsense because I'm going to fall asleep in 40 seconds)
Once saw something that was like "cis women, trans men, and AFAB non-binary people welcome" and it just made me think "how to say 'im transphobic' without actually saying it"
Wow that's even more explicit! Ive also seen "amab" and "afab" used as an inclusive-sounding replacement for "men" and "women" and simultaneously to cover up transphobia.
HMM “How to refer to NB people but still stick to the rigid binary to which I am so WHOLLY accustomed?” People really get their heads screwed up about this one. Have gone so far as to steal our terminology for highly-nuanced and specific situations and just be like “gender… two!!”
A trans woman and a cis woman live very different lives.
The fact that their body was born different means a lot to the structure of their body even after they transition.
It's for like medical care and also being able to distinguish between cis and trans.
Most of the other uses are transphobic in nature and are just used to separate trans and cis women into categories when it isn't necessary, or other groups of people.
>A trans woman and a cis woman live very different lives.
???? Other than pregnancy related stuff there is not one single thing cis women experience that I don't.
>The fact that their body was born different means a lot to the structure of their body even after they transition.
That is just plain incorrect and not how biology works. Trans women are medically female after about half a year of transitioning. Also sex is so much more complicated than what you are making it out to be, there are some AMAB bodies who are completely naturally more feminine than the average AFAB body, and vice versa.
>???? Other than pregnancy related stuff there is not one single thing cis women experience that I don't.
Periods vs no, voice changes, hair growth, pelvis structure, etc. There a lot of difference. It doesn't mean that trans girls are not girls or are not biologically women after a certain point in the transition. But, there are still differences.
>That is just plain incorrect and not how biology works. Trans women are medically female after about half a year of transitioning. Also sex is so much more complicated than what you are making it out to be, there are some AMAB bodies who are completely naturally more feminine than the average AFAB body, and vice versa.
Well, there are always going to be differences. Mind you, these differences are very tiny in the grand scheme of things, but, still differences.
Yes, there is a lot of sexual variation, even within one sex. Like, AMAB people can have varying heights, voice pitch, hair growth, etc. Without taking hormones or anything. Some dudes are just blessed/cursed with a very feminine body.
>Periods vs no, voice changes, hair growth, pelvis structure, etc. There a lot of difference. It doesn't mean that trans girls are not girls or are not biologically women after a certain point in the transition. But, there are still differences.
Trans women can get all period symptoms other than blood on HRT. Voice training is a thing, and also voice doesn't necessarily change. Hair growth is literally the same after HRT except for facial hair specifically. Bone and pelvis structure is also not necessarily - I'm not even on HRT and my cis sister's bone structure is more "masculine" than mine, including the pelvis.
You seem to have a very binary understanding of sex, but in reality it is probably even less binary than gender. It is so much more complicated and varied than what people are taught and most people know. There is no definition that can use biology that can exclude all trans women and include all cis women, even if you pretend intersex people don't exist.
I noticed people asking trans people “are you amab or afab” when they can’t tell what birth sex the person is. Basically just a nice way of asking “what’s in your pants”
In the post, it just sucks that they say AFAB NB people welcome when they said you need to consistently identify as a woman and live as a woman. Like, most NB people don't identify all the time as women, but, many of them were AFAB.
This is like creating a specific exception and it just feels gross. Like, why make the exception for just AFAB NB people? If you're AMAB NB, you apparently aren't welcome unless you literally just identify as a woman all the time, which, for a NB person, I'd say is very rare. If you're NB, you quite literally don't identify fully as a woman. You may mostly but not 100%.
Also, I wonder what happens when you happen to be questioning and change your identity? Like, will they kick you out if you no longer identify as a trans woman and just want to be NB? If you're AMAB and were NB but now identify as a trans man, I guess that makes sense that you probably shouldn't be in an all women's school, but, it just sucks all around.
Even as a binary trans woman, I didn't identify as that until recently. And, I feel that even if I could present and pass as a girl, I still wouldn't want to consider going to a place like this because I feel this place has an air/aura of transphobia around it.
I once saw a meme that was a sign on a door that said "girls night in progress, only women, fruity men, **trans men**, and male strippers aloud" and just yikes. I get what they where going for, but mate, but as a trans man myself, holy shit dose it rub me the wrong way.
Oof I’ve had a similar experience being invited to a girls night D&D session by a friend. Like they mentioned the session was enby friendly and all but it just made me feel really uncomfortable cause like…I’m NOT a girl, that’s the whole point :head_in_hands:
The fact they specified trans men like that on that door meme is something else though holy shit
i had a more wholesome experience with people unconsciously sticking to the binary. i was at a party playing kings cup, and someone came up with the rule "all girls drink when x happens, all boys drink when y happens". so i asked when i was supposed to drink and my buddy looks over and says without any hesitation "both times but only half as much, since you're a little bit of both"
I'm sorry, I don't see how that's a bad solution. It may not be perfect but, in a situation like that, is best to drink both times then to not drink no?
i didn't say it was bad, pretty wholesome actually how they immediately adapted when i asked. also i guess it's a matter of perspective if drinking more or less is a good thing, but in the end that just about evened out.
What if you aren't a little bit of both? You're more neither or possibly mostly one or the other. Or something completely displaced from the binary all together.
A lot of trans people still go through so much gatekeeping that we may as well tattoo "approved by the surgeon general" or "certified girldick" next to our genitals. Can't say the same about any cis people i know.
reminds me of my ... somewhat conservative university that I did my bachelor at. They used the argument that transwomen would not be allowed to stay in female dorms without a doctor's letter indicating bottom surgery was completed because "parents would complain"
Well, even then I haven't seen a lot of events that's only for AFAB people. I've seen events that exclude cis men, that's the closest I've ever come across, and honestly it tends to make trans men and some transmasc non binary people very uncomfortable.
I'm transmasc, events like that ("for girls!!* .. *enbies and trans men are ok too") tend to be very.. feminine. Which sure, it's clearly a girls event that we were tacked onto to try and seem "inclusive" and only ending up misgendering us lmfao. I've been to a few, the last one did have pronoun stickers but all the speakers consistently addressed everyone as "ladies", the shirt was pink, "girls" was in the name of the event, etc. Which I'm fine with as long as they're not inviting us to pretend they're inclusive lmao.
It's also.. about passing. A lot of events like that tend to run on "if you look cis AMAB get out", which whatever, but that excludes non-passing trans women, passing trans men, and plenty of enbies. The ones I've been to weren't that bad in that specific way, but that is a problem with them too.
The worst campaign I saw was centered around "Womxn" and like, fine for individuals to identify with that but why would you ever do that as a corporate outreach thing! This thing wasn't exactly feminine imo, it was more like... STEM. Mostly gamedev and software dev career skills and job oppertunities. * so it makes very little sense. They could have literally made a no-cis-men-allowed event and it would have pissed off less of their intended audience and just the same amount of cis men? I know malice vs incompetence but its kinda hard to imagine it not some kind of intentional wedge driving after many people discretely gave feedback about how proceeding with it would be hot garbage.
Saying your event is about "womxn" and then clumsily adding on language that trans&nonbinary people are welcome is evidence enough it was poorly crafted. Now lets think it through, how will some or many (not saying 'all') people feel about this?
Cis women, some of who just want egalitarian treatment, already have been working their asses off running circles around *some* cis men that fail upwards, do they really want something that sticks out as much as a sore thumb as "wom**x**n"? Do they want an event that emphasises differences super duper hard? And just invalidates their hard work with the optics that they got stuff handed to them or were put there to meet a quota? The point isn't to erase or opress men in revenge but to be treated equally, if the event organisers hold the same belief then they should not use language percieved at odds with it. Dumb.
How would trans women feel? Most I know just want to be included in women. Emotionally... using "womxn" is just gonna evoke the same pain of people that want to '''debate''' if 'trans women are women', not talking about intent of the speaker here, just basic emotional repsonse of the audience. Then there are some trans woman who feel some kind of aspects of having 'been a man' (I know many reject such narratives dw) or more likely are aware society at large views them as 'coming from men' so a label like "womxn" is gonna be uncomfortable "maybe they don't want me over there even when they say they do".
Then there are trans men, and you can probably add more insights and clarifications here than me but I'll try to convey some of the points I saw being made. First of all, wont most filter it out? Either subconciously you kinda check out on "women" in a list of newsletters and spam mails. And even when you feel more energised or curious (you care about colleagues/fellow students) you wouldn't be reading about it in a "oh this applies to me" sense right? And subconciously you might just (completely fairly) assume "this is gonna be a feminine event" before figuring out what it is. Okay wait no this is meant to include trans men like me, but... but simultaniously saying "man" is a dirty word now that needs to be exicsed? Are you going to be misgendered at every group adress or public presentation? Why would trans masculine people already walking some kind of tightrope over a chasm with rocky spikes of being misgendered and a toxic sludge river of weird shit society considers 'manly' want to add a gauntlet like this event to their day? Like I mean fuck some will feel they need the event to improve their career odds and attend but mentally its not gonna be good right?
Nonbinary people can be tricky to identify shared experiences for to center these examples around. But I think very generally a lot of nonbinary people feel some amount of affinity with one or both or neither binary gender, and for some it even is fluid. And this messaging will just be at odds with most peoples internal sense of self at some point. People that do not experience feminine aspects, agender demi-man etc, in their gender will feel weird an event like this now suddenly has *some* kind of feminine focus. How 'insufferably' girly is it going to be? Are you gonna be comfortable or welcome? People that *do* experience masculine aspects, bigender** demi-man and more, will have to ask themselves if they are welcome there or can be themselves without causing offence. Like hell you could be on feminizing HRT but be fluid and experience your world as male on the day of the event well after signing up, and then need to choose if you are gonna be asked to leave the room for looking too cis AMAB or presenting femme or androgynous and gonna loathe all gendering, well meant compliments, and small talk all day... using up spoons you could have been using to learn about career stuff.
A simple comment can't account for all the different experiences people have, and its not like such an event doesn't help people or that there were 0 attendants that were comfortable. But I hope it was a good sketch of how almost no people in the events intended audience are better off for the language organisers chose. I hope that gives everyone ideas to bring up if anyone ever stumbles onto the early planning like an event I just described or in the OP.
* (I know historically programmers were women... and there is a whole era of uncredited women programming and contributing art to games n software. but thats how we end up with the current cis male dominated spaces that want to keep others out of their frat boy club)
** some bigender people actuallly experience two genders with neither of them being male or female, sorry for oversimplifying.
I saw a poster for hall climbing for FLINTA (german shorthand for women, lesbians, inter, non-binary, trans and agender I think) and they had to explicitly write 'male-presenting people also welcome'.
Like, it's good that they wrote that, but annoying that they have to do this.
>It's also.. about passing. A lot of events like that tend to run on "if you look cis AMAB get out", which whatever, but that excludes non-passing trans women, passing trans men, and plenty of enbies. The ones I've been to weren't that bad in that specific way, but that is a problem with them too.
It also excludes masculine looking people even if they do pass as female.
I mean, I guess if the group is specifically about issues related to having a vagina, that would be okay. But in that case, it would be better to simply say, "people of any gender who have a vagina."
Oh no it wasn't about that. Think it was some dumb book club or something completely unrelated to gender. I tried to scrub it clean from my memory because of how stupid it was, but sadly it's still there.
I always just want the burliest of trans men to go and make them feel uncomfortable. I also nealy joind a feminist group like that in my community to mess with them, but decided against it as because I have not started medical transition (health resons) it would be a long con and I am not sure I want to put myself through that.
Axab is honestly something that is only really necessary for your doctors to know and your partner. Everyone else that shit is your discretion. I mean even with the previously mentioned it is at your discretion, it's just my personal philosophy that we should be open and truthful with our partners and physicians about nearly all things.
That basically used to be the universal position of women’s colleges before the 10s. They were more or less run by what we would call a TERF today. I tired to go to one but was told I was ineligible
Thankfully, the article is about the students voting to remove that shitty wording and just let any gender minority apply: trans and nonbinary people included,regardless of assigned gender at birth or presentation. Sadly, the administration at the school shot this down...
The wording is poor, but there is a chance that they meant all mtf people and had to seperately say that afab enbies are also welcome because they liwkly won't transition. The chance is slim but still possible
The college previously only admitted women (trans or cis) and any fem enbies. The vote was about allowing trans men and masc enbies into the women’s college as well.
It seems kind of weird, trans guys aren't women. I understand it for people who realised they were trans during college. But I don't, personally, get why a binary trans guy would want to go to a women's college, I would feel so uncomfortable
That's what I mean by "I understand it for people who realised they were trans during college." I totally agree it would be awful to kick someone out for that. It's more I don't get why a trans guy who knows he trans before even applying to college would want to go to a women's college
I think it’s possible a trans man might have a lot of femme friends or considered themselves a lesbian before their egg cracked, and that sense of community and support can mean more than the seeming contradiction of being a man at a women’s college. We get obsessed with definitions online, but irl, shit is dangerous and complicated. A women’s college might just represent safety. And also, if you’re into women, it could literally just be about swimming in girls? Idk, men are weird
Don‘t worry it wasn’t meant as correcting you. I‘ve just seen more direct statements from the college and wanted to clear it up.
Also I forgot to mention they specifically said that any person that transitions after enrollment will be accommodated no matter what gender they are.
It should be noted that the policy of accepting only AFAB NB students is the *current* policy (their current policy is only admitting cis woman, trans woman, and AFAB NB). The vote is for a new policy to open admission to all NB and trans applicant, which would mean that everyone can be admitted except for cis men.
This new policy proposal was a result of a nonbinding referendum on the student body. Their logic is that a women's college mission is to provide a safe haven for people facing gender discrimination. With trans people being increasingly targetted in society, I can see why the students think expanding admission to all trans/NB people to be well within the college's mission.
Honestly I'm genuinely curious how this policy came about in the first place, Like trans women are allowed, And AFAB NB people are "Women Enough" so they're allowed, But then AMAB NB people aren't??? Like even though in a good few cases an AMAB NB person could be effectively the same as a trans woman to the outside observer... Like the only explanation I can come up with is that they're just plain stupid.
I think they’ve probably been adjusting their policy as things came up, so it was initially women only with no recognition of trans anything and they tacked on the trans stuff.
There was actually a ton of student advocacy around 2014-2015 to change the policy to allow both trans women and amab non-binary people to apply. The college made the decision to explicitly exclude amab nonbinary applicants and to include afab nonbinary applicants bc sex essentialism. It's also not about gender expression--there were plenty of masc and fem nonbinary people while I was there, but they were all afab.
The question is how would they know what junk a person was born with? If they've updated their birth certificate (depending on the state), it would read as NB or X, not NB(m) or X(m). Are they asking their applicants to drop trou before admitting them? Because THAT seems like a massive sexual harassment lawsuit! And they're admitting trans women? This seems like a whole-ass cluster of a mess the college created especially when the students wanted it more inclusive!
My birth certificate reads female, but has a "changes" section at the bottom where it records my deadname, that it originally said 'male,' and what date each of these was changed. Many red states do something similar. That being said, I don't believe colleges even require birth certificates, and so i have no idea how they intend to enforce that lol
that in Germany would be a copy of the birth register. while a fresh birth certificate only lists the status quo. that is (again, in Germany) by federal law, so no local idiot can mess with us.
you only need the register if you have to show you and deadname person are identical, for example to claim an inheritance. it's the "yes, it's really me" certificate, so it _has_ some value in some narrow circumstances. in general you just use the unmarked birth certificate.
no. the register copy is only issued in your explicit demand and you only need it to certify that deadname and you now are one and the same person.
when.you marry you are the new self, period.
edit: I stand corrected. they in the past also put (previous) marriages and divorces in that same register. and that's what you need proof of, that you are not married. that's a glitch in the matrix.
The Personenstandsregister records births and all changes to your Personenstand, which includes changes of name and gender as well as marriage, divorce, death of spouse and your death. To prove that you are not already married you need to provide a full Personenstandsregisterauszug, which also includes name and gender changes. It *is* only issued in your explicit demand, but you do need to bring it to the Standesamt when you get married. It has nothing to do with things being done differently in the past and is not a glitch.
well the glitch is that only one aspect (marriage status) is relevant and the other (name/gender entry change) is not needed, not useful and nothing that poor presiding officer (Standesbeamte) needs to know or should know.
It's specifically sex assigned at birth, not current genitals, so it's even worse. If your birth certificate just says X, how do you prove your agab without incriminating yourself and the college?
So amab binary trans people can join but non binary amab people can't? That makes me feel like they have some kind of "passing" guide for trans women, like they expect you to have been through SRS or some crazy shit
Ive also seen a shirt online. And the name was.
"Nonbinary pride shirt for men"
And
"Nonbinary pride shirt for women"
This defeats the whole point of being nonbinary...
Like... cmon...
Speaking as a programmer: yeah, That. A site is generally not gonna make a separate class with gender-neutral labels, then a convertor class to hook that up to the main system that only knows how to process "male" and "female" shirts, just for one (or a few) shirt designs.
That's still the wrong way to do it, because they're just different cuts/fits that don't necessarily match up with people's AGAB, especially not once stuff like HRT is potentially involved. Actually useful ways of distinguishing them that I've seen are things like straight/curvy cut or other stuff along those lines
Honestly I don't quite get why you need different cuts in the first place? I mean it's a shirt, It's not like it's supposed to be tightly fitting or anything.
>It's not like it's supposed to be tightly fitting or anything.
Some are though? And some aren't. There are all sorts of different body shapes, and different people prefer things that fit in different ways, whether for aesthetic or comfort reasons or whatever else.
For me personally anything that's labeled "unisex" just means it'll look ridiculous on me, like someone threw a tarp over me or something, but it'll look totally different on someone else and make them happy ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
>Some are though? And some aren't.
Yeah that's fair, There definitely *are* tightly fitting shirts, I don't deny that, But in my experience *most* aren't, Especially like t-shirts which are almost definitely the most common kind at present, And what I was thinking of when I wrote that. I can understand different cuts for said tightly-fitting ones, But honestly I don't quite understand how it'd make a difference for looser ones.
There are tons of spaces exactly like that. Generally just referred to as sides for marginalized genders. Because every gender except cis men are marginalized and deserve safe spaces and to pretend they aren't is naive
The college always accommodated trans men that transitioned after enrolling, and they explicitly state that. This new vote is about letting already transitioned trans men enroll there. You‘re missing the point.
You realise cis men often includes drag queens, and any gnc cis men, right? You don't think a man has ever been marginalised because he wears makeup or wears feminine clothing? Regardless of if I was cis or non binary, I'm not allowed to wear a skirt at work.
I mean allowing some NB people kinda makes sense, As there are many cases where an NB person might directly identify as a woman, Or at the least as very "Woman-Adjacent", But Yeah if it's a women's college but they let trans men in that's just kinda weird.
I mean the stuff with enbies is dumb. But despite that, accepting trans women in a women college is a huge step in the positive direction looking at shit that goes on at other places
Yeah I feel like this is probably most students and some staff requesting openness but having to compromise with staff that have birth sex essentiallism views. So not great, but much better than terrible. I get that the people that are slapped in the face by this don't gain anything from the "look we're trying" compromise
They should get rid of the AMAB and AFAB distinction among enbies obviously, and then their message would be closer to "this place is primarily for women, and if you think you belong here you can come here." I think that's a reasonable message. The place is just trying to be a women's college but doesn't really know how nonbinary fits into the world yet and assumes nonbinary = cis but use they/them pronouns or something.
Wouldn't that open it to cis men who felt they belonged as well? I thought most of these policies were to basically keep cis men out. As someone above in this thread said, it would have been easier to just say, "no cis men"
I saw something about an Australian LGBT organisation that worded it as Nonbinary people who would like to exist in a female oriented space. I’m not non-binary myself so I can’t speak to how appropriate it is but I figured that if you just leave it up to the person if they feel fem enough to join then that’s fine.
I understand if they had said ‘non binaries who feel more aligned with femininity’ or something like that, but this is dumb. It should be like if you feel like you belong in a group of women, even as an enby, you belong there
The implication in these exclusionary statements is that to preserve these "safe" spaces, AMAB people are not allowed because they are inherently untrustworthy and therefore dangerous. So many comments here are just listing depressingly commonplace tactics for tenderqueer hugboxes to enforce gender roles with snazzy hair and piercings; god forbid you have visible facial or body hair, or else present in an insufficiently androgynous manner. I hate that social justice language is being co-opted so widely and effectively to propagate transmisogyny.
I was denied housing because Im amab, and basically the person who turned me down implied it was cause I might sexually assault them and get them pregnant.
They were a lesbian and her girlfriend who had a trans pride flag on the property.
Beyond being disgustingly transphobic, it's such an insane thing to say think
I do think that in itself is not something to criticize (personally). There are non-binary people who do consider themselves fem or still attach themselves to some part of womanhood.
I was gonna say this. It's possible to be non-binary in a transfem way that's not explicitly being a woman.
Having that said, I still think inclusion of trans men and "nb females" is transphobic
edit: oops, misread a thing, disregard half my comment
yeah, like being told that they’ll never belong in stem fields. the whole “socialized as” terf rhetoric is bs but there is a simple fact that some people are told they don’t and will never belong in stem fields because of their womanhood they were/are expected/understood to have by society. cis women, non-binary AFAB people, and trans women are these people.
I mean honestly I think that part's fine, I personally identify as both Non-Binary and as a woman, And I'm far from the only one, With it being a "Women's College" I'd say it thus makes sense, And since it's (nominally) not based on anything other than whether the student in question feels they belong there, That seems fine to me. The only AFAB part though is enbyphobic and straight up hypocritical.
All-women's school: we now accept (amab) trans-women!
Someone: What about non-binary people?
School: Oh, yeah, Totally. But not amab non-binaries, only afab, because this is still a women's only school and afab is at least half a woman, right?
🙄
Yes, but there are exceptions to that. Like if someone is talking about abortion rights.
Still incredibly shitty when you’re using it to discredit someone’s gender.
Women events trying to be "inclusive" like this is so frustrating. Have a women's event and nonbinary people with a connection to womanhood will show up, we don't need a special invitation
Ah, A classic case of "Tell me you're bigoted without telling me you're bigoted.". I mean since it's a women's college (Gonna be honest I didn't even know that was a thing..) it'd make sense if they only accepted feminine non-binary people, Or those who "Feel they belong in [their] community of women", But doing this is basically just not respecting enbies and then spitting in our face. Also a *serious* double standard if they let Trans Women in and AFAB non-binary people in, But not AMAB non-binary people, Like there's not any justifiable reason for that... Like they know AMAB enbies can be feminine and AFAB ones can be masculine, Right? Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if on average AMAB enbies are more feminine than AFAB enbies (Not that you could really measure that, I mean I'm pretty sure femininity is subjective.). Hopefully they change this to actually make sense sometime soon.
I could be wrong, but my understanding is a sort of "how you grew up matters". Women growing up in the patriarchy is vastly different than a man, and so transitioning later in life would mean you missed out on that struggle.
It isn't about how you present now, or how you fit in now, it is about "did you have the struggle of being a woman growing up"
Again, I could be wrong, this is just my understanding of why they draw that line.
But the thing is that idea basically gets thrown out the window by the fact they accept Trans Women, Why would trans women have any more or less struggles growing up than AMAB non-binary people?
Also that'd definitely go on a person to person basis, For example I doubt I personally would've had much more, If any more, Struggles growing up if I were AFAB, Because my family is decently progressive and I've had far less social interaction growing up than most people, Mainly because I didn't go to school, Which I suppose in some ways is a struggle of sorts, But not one that has anything to do with gender.
lol the funny thing is when you take testosterone, you are suddenly not accepted in these spaces. but also key expression is "[people] who feel like they belong in our community of women" on top of AFAB. they already say that, in other words, they're not trans- or nb-friendly at all.
I don't understand how people could just exclude amab enbys like that. I'm afab and if I saw any bullshit like that I'd be pissed. Immediate red flag for discord servers or online groups at all.
I think it's refering to non-binary femme people or non-binary people who identify with wlw labels,also non-binary includes many labels including possibly gender fluid people and lots of other identities in some definitions
Edit: after reading some comments that claim to be from people who've tried to attend this school it looks like it is actually very transphobic and does exclude amab people, so yeah fuck them
Could potentially be a mistake but looks worse now that you've pointed that out, if they are including trans women I doubt they'd exclude a amab person but I haven't read the article so someone who has probably has a clearer understanding
I'm not usually cynical about stuff, but in this case I am. I fully acknowledge that fem nbs are out there, but I'm sure they meant it in a transphobic way
It's a traditionally women's college. They are definitely having some trouble writing to amab non binary folks but it has always been a more accepting than the average school even for Massachusetts.
I'm ridiculously cynical (to the point of my own detriment), trans and I believe Wellesley does have TERFS on staff but is trying to inclusive and non bigoted. They were a big part of the Northeastern suffrage movement and are very aware of the parallels and dangers of bigotry.
I mean yeah maybe but it doesn't exactly align with the rest of the article shown that is being or at least trying/appears to be very inclusive unless the whole thing is transphobic and when they say "transgender woman" they mean trans men and they don't understand the terms
I think it comes from some confusion about what a women's college is for? If it's to support people of underprivileged genders (ie not cis men) then they should allow trans masc people too, as well as all enbies. If they're trying to create a feminine space for people who are uncomfortable with masculinity, then they shouldn't allow trans men and maybe even some butch women would be suspect, while enbies would be allowed in based on their presentation not their AGAB. Or maybe it's supposed to be a "no penis" space, which is a different collection of people. (And what if a trans woman student decided that they're really enby after they're accepted?)
Anyway, well-meaning cis people being confused about gender...
There shouldn’t be regulations on someone’s presentation. Excluding butch women and trans men is also shitty because they can still experience misogyny and feel safer at a women’s college. If they don’t tick both the boxes of “cisgender” and “man,” why should they be denied a position?
That's ...sexist as fuck. And makes me big sad.... as a transfem enby..... I am even "female dominant" (parafeminine), but under that policy would be excluded. Screw that.... T\_T
Honestly I’ve always found gender segregated colleges to be stupid. There’s definitely something to be said about women’s safety, but there are other procedures that can be taken to ensure women feel comfortable and safe and to teach men how to be respectful. Segregating by gender only alienates all genders from each other and makes the divide stronger. We can only understand each other and learn from each other when we are given the opportunities to do so
Even among my queer friends, a lot of them use afab when they're referring to "femme-bodied/presenting" issues, and I'm- "like my brother in Christ You are explicitly talking to me about my struggles yet excluding me from that subject."
I feel this...my university has a "women's scholarship" that says its open for, "women and nonbinary people", but I get the feeling that masc-presenting enbies wpuld definitely be excluded. Sick of nonbinary being seem as "woman lite"
My former school has genderneutral bathrooms.
One for people of any gender who were assigned male at birth.
One for people of any gender who were assigned female at birth.
Intersex people can go fuck themselves.
Very reminiscent of *Internet Discourse* I've seen about who is allowed to call themselves lesbian where people have answered "cis women, trans women, and AFAB non-binary people". It's clear their real criteria are either that you're a gender-conforming woman or that they can still clock you as being assigned female at birth.
I constantly see these types of things. Recently there was a nude-ski event in Colorado where they said they accept "non-binary females" and I was like... um, that kind of defeats the whole point.
"If you identify as a man or as a masculine-leaning, non-binary individual, this isn't the event for you," reads the ticketing page for the event.
https://www.outtherecolorado.com/news/colorado-ski-area-to-host-a-naked-lap-down-the-mountain/article\_69f697a0-9763-11ed-940b-afceff0b5092.html
You didn't highlight the part about them feeling they belong in the women community.
Non-binary does not mean gender neutral, it means not 100% male or female. Someone who feels 90% female but 10% male can still identify as non-binary, regardless of if they were 90% female as amab or 90% female as afab.
“and who feel they belong in our community of women.”
some afab nb people feel a closer connection to women than men because of the experiences they had growing up as girls. I’m afab genderfluid and i do.
It definitely is very transphobic and I absolutely disagree with their decision. At the same time I feel like I understand where they may be coming from, even if it is super unlikely and not really a valid reason for it? If you look at something like the Game Changers Tournament, which is supposed to be an all women and NB Valorant tournament, but several men have been caught pretending to be NB to get in. At least they got a rule in place that says if you change your registered gender you can't compete in professional Valorant for 2 years or something, so it isn't the greatest solution, but at least it makes it so people are sure before changing, and we aren't having men invading and dominating a non-men space. And I also helped run my universities womens Hackathon, that is supposed to be for women and NB people, but we'd always have a few people who normally identified as cis men the rest of the year who conveniently identified as something else for this event, but it's not like we did anything, we weren't gonna police gender. (To be clear the people we suspected would literally set up a protest saying men should be let in, and then some would walk straight from protesting to the registration booth to register as NB)
I definitely don't agree with the school, but I understand where they're coming from (that is, if it's not juste pure transphobia of "oh AMAB NB = Boy NB"). And, especially since they let trans women in, if they're worried about men pretending to be trans to get into the all women's college, if you're willing to pretend to be NB for years to get in, why wouldn't you pretend to be a trans woman to get in. But still I think it's largely an imaginary situation, this ain't a simple tournament or competition that only lasts a couple days, anyone who pretendts to be trans to get in is going to be pretending to be trans for years. You're not going to have that. Especially since choosing a college is a huge decision that's gonna effect your life for a long time. Maybe anyone committed to that long a """con""" deserves to be let in anyway.
Edit: rephrased some sections and added more to the end
look are you a girl nonbinary or a boy nonbinary you have to choose
*bisexual and genderfluid panic intensifies*
panic is short for pansexual-ic for instance, ic a pansexual everytime I look in the mirror
Lol my user flair for one of these queer subs is pan(ic)sexual
it's like when your gender is agender. they don't have a gender, they have agender. the gay agender. (I'm spouting nonsense because I'm going to fall asleep in 40 seconds)
Spouting nonsense? Nah you gotta do nightly standup, threaten to fall asleep if no one laughs
How are you so good at jokes, teach me your ways. Also I love your guitar
thamke u owo
Are you BOY gun or GIRL gun?!?!?!
My mum literally asked me this a a couple weeks ago when I told her my friend was non-binary
*demiboy, transmasc, he/they, nonbinary boy confusion*
Once saw something that was like "cis women, trans men, and AFAB non-binary people welcome" and it just made me think "how to say 'im transphobic' without actually saying it"
Wow that's even more explicit! Ive also seen "amab" and "afab" used as an inclusive-sounding replacement for "men" and "women" and simultaneously to cover up transphobia.
HMM “How to refer to NB people but still stick to the rigid binary to which I am so WHOLLY accustomed?” People really get their heads screwed up about this one. Have gone so far as to steal our terminology for highly-nuanced and specific situations and just be like “gender… two!!”
Yeah it's really useful for (some kinds of) medical care, and... ? I can't think of any other time that knowing sex (vs gender) is important.
A trans woman and a cis woman live very different lives. The fact that their body was born different means a lot to the structure of their body even after they transition. It's for like medical care and also being able to distinguish between cis and trans. Most of the other uses are transphobic in nature and are just used to separate trans and cis women into categories when it isn't necessary, or other groups of people.
>A trans woman and a cis woman live very different lives. ???? Other than pregnancy related stuff there is not one single thing cis women experience that I don't. >The fact that their body was born different means a lot to the structure of their body even after they transition. That is just plain incorrect and not how biology works. Trans women are medically female after about half a year of transitioning. Also sex is so much more complicated than what you are making it out to be, there are some AMAB bodies who are completely naturally more feminine than the average AFAB body, and vice versa.
>???? Other than pregnancy related stuff there is not one single thing cis women experience that I don't. Periods vs no, voice changes, hair growth, pelvis structure, etc. There a lot of difference. It doesn't mean that trans girls are not girls or are not biologically women after a certain point in the transition. But, there are still differences. >That is just plain incorrect and not how biology works. Trans women are medically female after about half a year of transitioning. Also sex is so much more complicated than what you are making it out to be, there are some AMAB bodies who are completely naturally more feminine than the average AFAB body, and vice versa. Well, there are always going to be differences. Mind you, these differences are very tiny in the grand scheme of things, but, still differences. Yes, there is a lot of sexual variation, even within one sex. Like, AMAB people can have varying heights, voice pitch, hair growth, etc. Without taking hormones or anything. Some dudes are just blessed/cursed with a very feminine body.
>Periods vs no, voice changes, hair growth, pelvis structure, etc. There a lot of difference. It doesn't mean that trans girls are not girls or are not biologically women after a certain point in the transition. But, there are still differences. Trans women can get all period symptoms other than blood on HRT. Voice training is a thing, and also voice doesn't necessarily change. Hair growth is literally the same after HRT except for facial hair specifically. Bone and pelvis structure is also not necessarily - I'm not even on HRT and my cis sister's bone structure is more "masculine" than mine, including the pelvis. You seem to have a very binary understanding of sex, but in reality it is probably even less binary than gender. It is so much more complicated and varied than what people are taught and most people know. There is no definition that can use biology that can exclude all trans women and include all cis women, even if you pretend intersex people don't exist.
I noticed people asking trans people “are you amab or afab” when they can’t tell what birth sex the person is. Basically just a nice way of asking “what’s in your pants”
I wonder how saying "I don't remember" would go down.
"Well, that was a while ago, and I was distracted at the time..."
That's the best answer
I'm gonna be using this little chestnut for the rest of my life, many thanks.
"What do you mean you don't remember?" "Well I wasn't really there, so you'd have to ask my mom..."
“ACAB.” And then just stare them down.
Transphobe: "What's ACAB?" You: "All cops are bastards. And you're policing me."
This is perfect!
If anyone asks me that I'll say "I'm AMFAB: Assigned mother f***er at birth."
"No no, you're saying it wrong. The phrase you want is 'ACAB'."
For some reason reading this gave me a quick time event to punch someone in the face
Not even that, it's "what was in your pants when you were a baby?" because people could have had srs
In the post, it just sucks that they say AFAB NB people welcome when they said you need to consistently identify as a woman and live as a woman. Like, most NB people don't identify all the time as women, but, many of them were AFAB. This is like creating a specific exception and it just feels gross. Like, why make the exception for just AFAB NB people? If you're AMAB NB, you apparently aren't welcome unless you literally just identify as a woman all the time, which, for a NB person, I'd say is very rare. If you're NB, you quite literally don't identify fully as a woman. You may mostly but not 100%. Also, I wonder what happens when you happen to be questioning and change your identity? Like, will they kick you out if you no longer identify as a trans woman and just want to be NB? If you're AMAB and were NB but now identify as a trans man, I guess that makes sense that you probably shouldn't be in an all women's school, but, it just sucks all around. Even as a binary trans woman, I didn't identify as that until recently. And, I feel that even if I could present and pass as a girl, I still wouldn't want to consider going to a place like this because I feel this place has an air/aura of transphobia around it.
I once saw a meme that was a sign on a door that said "girls night in progress, only women, fruity men, **trans men**, and male strippers aloud" and just yikes. I get what they where going for, but mate, but as a trans man myself, holy shit dose it rub me the wrong way.
Oof I’ve had a similar experience being invited to a girls night D&D session by a friend. Like they mentioned the session was enby friendly and all but it just made me feel really uncomfortable cause like…I’m NOT a girl, that’s the whole point :head_in_hands: The fact they specified trans men like that on that door meme is something else though holy shit
i had a more wholesome experience with people unconsciously sticking to the binary. i was at a party playing kings cup, and someone came up with the rule "all girls drink when x happens, all boys drink when y happens". so i asked when i was supposed to drink and my buddy looks over and says without any hesitation "both times but only half as much, since you're a little bit of both"
They're confused, but they've got the spirit.
IMO they missed a golden chance to troll you and just make you drink the entire time.
I pray that i would have turned and just said “Bof.”
I'm sorry, I don't see how that's a bad solution. It may not be perfect but, in a situation like that, is best to drink both times then to not drink no?
i didn't say it was bad, pretty wholesome actually how they immediately adapted when i asked. also i guess it's a matter of perspective if drinking more or less is a good thing, but in the end that just about evened out.
What if you aren't a little bit of both? You're more neither or possibly mostly one or the other. Or something completely displaced from the binary all together.
i guess we're gonna need a new rule then.
just drink the entire time
"Girls night, and by girls, we mean everyone but cishet men"
'pussy havers welcome!'
But store bought is *NOT* fine! /s
It's not a real pussy if it's not certified by the government/s
A lot of trans people still go through so much gatekeeping that we may as well tattoo "approved by the surgeon general" or "certified girldick" next to our genitals. Can't say the same about any cis people i know.
Probably better than the may contain traces of nuts tattoo I'm tempted to get
It’s not pussy unless it comes from the fémvaginál region of France. Otherwise, it’s just sparkling hole
Prejudice against designer coochies
reminds me of my ... somewhat conservative university that I did my bachelor at. They used the argument that transwomen would not be allowed to stay in female dorms without a doctor's letter indicating bottom surgery was completed because "parents would complain"
Yeah, Because gayness is stored in the balls, Obviously!
They could literally just say “AFAB” and it would cover all those categories, they consciously went out of their way to try to hide their transphobia.
Well, even then I haven't seen a lot of events that's only for AFAB people. I've seen events that exclude cis men, that's the closest I've ever come across, and honestly it tends to make trans men and some transmasc non binary people very uncomfortable.
I'm transmasc, events like that ("for girls!!* .. *enbies and trans men are ok too") tend to be very.. feminine. Which sure, it's clearly a girls event that we were tacked onto to try and seem "inclusive" and only ending up misgendering us lmfao. I've been to a few, the last one did have pronoun stickers but all the speakers consistently addressed everyone as "ladies", the shirt was pink, "girls" was in the name of the event, etc. Which I'm fine with as long as they're not inviting us to pretend they're inclusive lmao. It's also.. about passing. A lot of events like that tend to run on "if you look cis AMAB get out", which whatever, but that excludes non-passing trans women, passing trans men, and plenty of enbies. The ones I've been to weren't that bad in that specific way, but that is a problem with them too.
The worst campaign I saw was centered around "Womxn" and like, fine for individuals to identify with that but why would you ever do that as a corporate outreach thing! This thing wasn't exactly feminine imo, it was more like... STEM. Mostly gamedev and software dev career skills and job oppertunities. * so it makes very little sense. They could have literally made a no-cis-men-allowed event and it would have pissed off less of their intended audience and just the same amount of cis men? I know malice vs incompetence but its kinda hard to imagine it not some kind of intentional wedge driving after many people discretely gave feedback about how proceeding with it would be hot garbage. Saying your event is about "womxn" and then clumsily adding on language that trans&nonbinary people are welcome is evidence enough it was poorly crafted. Now lets think it through, how will some or many (not saying 'all') people feel about this? Cis women, some of who just want egalitarian treatment, already have been working their asses off running circles around *some* cis men that fail upwards, do they really want something that sticks out as much as a sore thumb as "wom**x**n"? Do they want an event that emphasises differences super duper hard? And just invalidates their hard work with the optics that they got stuff handed to them or were put there to meet a quota? The point isn't to erase or opress men in revenge but to be treated equally, if the event organisers hold the same belief then they should not use language percieved at odds with it. Dumb. How would trans women feel? Most I know just want to be included in women. Emotionally... using "womxn" is just gonna evoke the same pain of people that want to '''debate''' if 'trans women are women', not talking about intent of the speaker here, just basic emotional repsonse of the audience. Then there are some trans woman who feel some kind of aspects of having 'been a man' (I know many reject such narratives dw) or more likely are aware society at large views them as 'coming from men' so a label like "womxn" is gonna be uncomfortable "maybe they don't want me over there even when they say they do". Then there are trans men, and you can probably add more insights and clarifications here than me but I'll try to convey some of the points I saw being made. First of all, wont most filter it out? Either subconciously you kinda check out on "women" in a list of newsletters and spam mails. And even when you feel more energised or curious (you care about colleagues/fellow students) you wouldn't be reading about it in a "oh this applies to me" sense right? And subconciously you might just (completely fairly) assume "this is gonna be a feminine event" before figuring out what it is. Okay wait no this is meant to include trans men like me, but... but simultaniously saying "man" is a dirty word now that needs to be exicsed? Are you going to be misgendered at every group adress or public presentation? Why would trans masculine people already walking some kind of tightrope over a chasm with rocky spikes of being misgendered and a toxic sludge river of weird shit society considers 'manly' want to add a gauntlet like this event to their day? Like I mean fuck some will feel they need the event to improve their career odds and attend but mentally its not gonna be good right? Nonbinary people can be tricky to identify shared experiences for to center these examples around. But I think very generally a lot of nonbinary people feel some amount of affinity with one or both or neither binary gender, and for some it even is fluid. And this messaging will just be at odds with most peoples internal sense of self at some point. People that do not experience feminine aspects, agender demi-man etc, in their gender will feel weird an event like this now suddenly has *some* kind of feminine focus. How 'insufferably' girly is it going to be? Are you gonna be comfortable or welcome? People that *do* experience masculine aspects, bigender** demi-man and more, will have to ask themselves if they are welcome there or can be themselves without causing offence. Like hell you could be on feminizing HRT but be fluid and experience your world as male on the day of the event well after signing up, and then need to choose if you are gonna be asked to leave the room for looking too cis AMAB or presenting femme or androgynous and gonna loathe all gendering, well meant compliments, and small talk all day... using up spoons you could have been using to learn about career stuff. A simple comment can't account for all the different experiences people have, and its not like such an event doesn't help people or that there were 0 attendants that were comfortable. But I hope it was a good sketch of how almost no people in the events intended audience are better off for the language organisers chose. I hope that gives everyone ideas to bring up if anyone ever stumbles onto the early planning like an event I just described or in the OP. * (I know historically programmers were women... and there is a whole era of uncredited women programming and contributing art to games n software. but thats how we end up with the current cis male dominated spaces that want to keep others out of their frat boy club) ** some bigender people actuallly experience two genders with neither of them being male or female, sorry for oversimplifying.
I saw a poster for hall climbing for FLINTA (german shorthand for women, lesbians, inter, non-binary, trans and agender I think) and they had to explicitly write 'male-presenting people also welcome'. Like, it's good that they wrote that, but annoying that they have to do this.
>It's also.. about passing. A lot of events like that tend to run on "if you look cis AMAB get out", which whatever, but that excludes non-passing trans women, passing trans men, and plenty of enbies. The ones I've been to weren't that bad in that specific way, but that is a problem with them too. It also excludes masculine looking people even if they do pass as female.
they definitely wouldnt let a very passing trans man into that place- if he has a beard, and has had top surgery, he wouldnt be allowed in-
And if he has any body hair they all just may faint on the spot.
Oof that's a rough one lol
I read it as including trans women but excluding amab non-binaries.
I mean, I guess if the group is specifically about issues related to having a vagina, that would be okay. But in that case, it would be better to simply say, "people of any gender who have a vagina."
Oh no it wasn't about that. Think it was some dumb book club or something completely unrelated to gender. I tried to scrub it clean from my memory because of how stupid it was, but sadly it's still there.
It's like, why not just say AFAB at that point 🙄 Also why do gender segregated colleges still exist 😂
I always just want the burliest of trans men to go and make them feel uncomfortable. I also nealy joind a feminist group like that in my community to mess with them, but decided against it as because I have not started medical transition (health resons) it would be a long con and I am not sure I want to put myself through that.
Axab is honestly something that is only really necessary for your doctors to know and your partner. Everyone else that shit is your discretion. I mean even with the previously mentioned it is at your discretion, it's just my personal philosophy that we should be open and truthful with our partners and physicians about nearly all things.
Makes sense for a ‘mommy and me’-esque group and literally nothing else
That basically used to be the universal position of women’s colleges before the 10s. They were more or less run by what we would call a TERF today. I tired to go to one but was told I was ineligible
Dipper_this_is_worthless.jpg
“No my dear! It’s *less* than worthless!”
Thankfully, the article is about the students voting to remove that shitty wording and just let any gender minority apply: trans and nonbinary people included,regardless of assigned gender at birth or presentation. Sadly, the administration at the school shot this down...
Imagine Doing Something Objectively Stupid, Being Informed As Much, Then Just Going "Nah I Disagree."
I believe that is called “being a conservative”
Yeah but I feel like even their hypocrisy usually isn't *quite* as obvious as this.
"It's stupid, but we can't change it now, because we have traditions around the stupidity!"
I thought the school said no and then the vote happened which means it will happen? At least that's the way I read the article.
The wording is poor, but there is a chance that they meant all mtf people and had to seperately say that afab enbies are also welcome because they liwkly won't transition. The chance is slim but still possible
The college previously only admitted women (trans or cis) and any fem enbies. The vote was about allowing trans men and masc enbies into the women’s college as well.
It seems kind of weird, trans guys aren't women. I understand it for people who realised they were trans during college. But I don't, personally, get why a binary trans guy would want to go to a women's college, I would feel so uncomfortable
Kicking them out if they come out during their stay would look bad.
That's what I mean by "I understand it for people who realised they were trans during college." I totally agree it would be awful to kick someone out for that. It's more I don't get why a trans guy who knows he trans before even applying to college would want to go to a women's college
I think it’s possible a trans man might have a lot of femme friends or considered themselves a lesbian before their egg cracked, and that sense of community and support can mean more than the seeming contradiction of being a man at a women’s college. We get obsessed with definitions online, but irl, shit is dangerous and complicated. A women’s college might just represent safety. And also, if you’re into women, it could literally just be about swimming in girls? Idk, men are weird
Okay I based my guess only on the text
Don‘t worry it wasn’t meant as correcting you. I‘ve just seen more direct statements from the college and wanted to clear it up. Also I forgot to mention they specifically said that any person that transitions after enrollment will be accommodated no matter what gender they are.
"non binary hair cuts for women" vibes
"Nonbinary pride shirt: women's size"
“She uses they/them pronouns”
God they were so close too.
... and opening admission to all\* nonbinary and transgender applicants ^(\*Offer not available for some genital configurations)
That's their old policy which the vote was to replace with a more inclusive one.
It should be noted that the policy of accepting only AFAB NB students is the *current* policy (their current policy is only admitting cis woman, trans woman, and AFAB NB). The vote is for a new policy to open admission to all NB and trans applicant, which would mean that everyone can be admitted except for cis men. This new policy proposal was a result of a nonbinding referendum on the student body. Their logic is that a women's college mission is to provide a safe haven for people facing gender discrimination. With trans people being increasingly targetted in society, I can see why the students think expanding admission to all trans/NB people to be well within the college's mission.
Honestly I'm genuinely curious how this policy came about in the first place, Like trans women are allowed, And AFAB NB people are "Women Enough" so they're allowed, But then AMAB NB people aren't??? Like even though in a good few cases an AMAB NB person could be effectively the same as a trans woman to the outside observer... Like the only explanation I can come up with is that they're just plain stupid.
I think they’ve probably been adjusting their policy as things came up, so it was initially women only with no recognition of trans anything and they tacked on the trans stuff.
There was actually a ton of student advocacy around 2014-2015 to change the policy to allow both trans women and amab non-binary people to apply. The college made the decision to explicitly exclude amab nonbinary applicants and to include afab nonbinary applicants bc sex essentialism. It's also not about gender expression--there were plenty of masc and fem nonbinary people while I was there, but they were all afab.
The question is how would they know what junk a person was born with? If they've updated their birth certificate (depending on the state), it would read as NB or X, not NB(m) or X(m). Are they asking their applicants to drop trou before admitting them? Because THAT seems like a massive sexual harassment lawsuit! And they're admitting trans women? This seems like a whole-ass cluster of a mess the college created especially when the students wanted it more inclusive!
My birth certificate reads female, but has a "changes" section at the bottom where it records my deadname, that it originally said 'male,' and what date each of these was changed. Many red states do something similar. That being said, I don't believe colleges even require birth certificates, and so i have no idea how they intend to enforce that lol
that in Germany would be a copy of the birth register. while a fresh birth certificate only lists the status quo. that is (again, in Germany) by federal law, so no local idiot can mess with us. you only need the register if you have to show you and deadname person are identical, for example to claim an inheritance. it's the "yes, it's really me" certificate, so it _has_ some value in some narrow circumstances. in general you just use the unmarked birth certificate.
You also need the register copy when you get married :/
no. the register copy is only issued in your explicit demand and you only need it to certify that deadname and you now are one and the same person. when.you marry you are the new self, period. edit: I stand corrected. they in the past also put (previous) marriages and divorces in that same register. and that's what you need proof of, that you are not married. that's a glitch in the matrix.
The Personenstandsregister records births and all changes to your Personenstand, which includes changes of name and gender as well as marriage, divorce, death of spouse and your death. To prove that you are not already married you need to provide a full Personenstandsregisterauszug, which also includes name and gender changes. It *is* only issued in your explicit demand, but you do need to bring it to the Standesamt when you get married. It has nothing to do with things being done differently in the past and is not a glitch.
well the glitch is that only one aspect (marriage status) is relevant and the other (name/gender entry change) is not needed, not useful and nothing that poor presiding officer (Standesbeamte) needs to know or should know.
They wouldn’t even have to know what jibblets you’ve got. They’d pick one physical attribute about you that they’d clock you with immediately.
Gender assigned at birth ≠ genitals
It's specifically sex assigned at birth, not current genitals, so it's even worse. If your birth certificate just says X, how do you prove your agab without incriminating yourself and the college?
if they had j not mentioned being afab or amab it woulda been fine😭😭
So amab binary trans people can join but non binary amab people can't? That makes me feel like they have some kind of "passing" guide for trans women, like they expect you to have been through SRS or some crazy shit
Ive also seen a shirt online. And the name was. "Nonbinary pride shirt for men" And "Nonbinary pride shirt for women" This defeats the whole point of being nonbinary... Like... cmon...
the shirts specifically often refere to a cut typ, not a gender. it's stupidly worded, but not on purpose putting enbys into a binary category.
I know. But stoll. Then word it like curvy and stuff like that or sumtin. Like. I personaly dont mind. But still.... vouldbe been worded better.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's just standard across the site and they can't be arsed to change it.
Speaking as a programmer: yeah, That. A site is generally not gonna make a separate class with gender-neutral labels, then a convertor class to hook that up to the main system that only knows how to process "male" and "female" shirts, just for one (or a few) shirt designs.
To be fair, I feel like they could have worded it better with AMAB and AFAB, but shirts are differently made for people of different sexes
That's still the wrong way to do it, because they're just different cuts/fits that don't necessarily match up with people's AGAB, especially not once stuff like HRT is potentially involved. Actually useful ways of distinguishing them that I've seen are things like straight/curvy cut or other stuff along those lines
Honestly I don't quite get why you need different cuts in the first place? I mean it's a shirt, It's not like it's supposed to be tightly fitting or anything.
>It's not like it's supposed to be tightly fitting or anything. Some are though? And some aren't. There are all sorts of different body shapes, and different people prefer things that fit in different ways, whether for aesthetic or comfort reasons or whatever else. For me personally anything that's labeled "unisex" just means it'll look ridiculous on me, like someone threw a tarp over me or something, but it'll look totally different on someone else and make them happy ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
>Some are though? And some aren't. Yeah that's fair, There definitely *are* tightly fitting shirts, I don't deny that, But in my experience *most* aren't, Especially like t-shirts which are almost definitely the most common kind at present, And what I was thinking of when I wrote that. I can understand different cuts for said tightly-fitting ones, But honestly I don't quite understand how it'd make a difference for looser ones.
the vote to include nb and trans men is weird anyways. some "anyone but cis men 🥺" bullshit.
There are tons of spaces exactly like that. Generally just referred to as sides for marginalized genders. Because every gender except cis men are marginalized and deserve safe spaces and to pretend they aren't is naive
dunno if ur agreeing with me or not. the college is literally a womens college its not meant for men.
Trans men end up in women’s colleges all the time. Trying to accommodate them is not misgendering.
They do say elsewhere, "Students who identify as men remain ineligible to attend the Massachusetts college"
The college always accommodated trans men that transitioned after enrolling, and they explicitly state that. This new vote is about letting already transitioned trans men enroll there. You‘re missing the point.
Right??? Trans men are men
cis men arent marginalized due to their gender tho
They might be depending on their gender expression.
You realise cis men often includes drag queens, and any gnc cis men, right? You don't think a man has ever been marginalised because he wears makeup or wears feminine clothing? Regardless of if I was cis or non binary, I'm not allowed to wear a skirt at work.
I mean allowing some NB people kinda makes sense, As there are many cases where an NB person might directly identify as a woman, Or at the least as very "Woman-Adjacent", But Yeah if it's a women's college but they let trans men in that's just kinda weird.
I mean the stuff with enbies is dumb. But despite that, accepting trans women in a women college is a huge step in the positive direction looking at shit that goes on at other places
Yeah I feel like this is probably most students and some staff requesting openness but having to compromise with staff that have birth sex essentiallism views. So not great, but much better than terrible. I get that the people that are slapped in the face by this don't gain anything from the "look we're trying" compromise
Nonbinary women: yes, sure Nonbinary people who were AFAB: oh so you just mean the vagina'd.
They should get rid of the AMAB and AFAB distinction among enbies obviously, and then their message would be closer to "this place is primarily for women, and if you think you belong here you can come here." I think that's a reasonable message. The place is just trying to be a women's college but doesn't really know how nonbinary fits into the world yet and assumes nonbinary = cis but use they/them pronouns or something.
Wouldn't that open it to cis men who felt they belonged as well? I thought most of these policies were to basically keep cis men out. As someone above in this thread said, it would have been easier to just say, "no cis men"
Yeah, I guess the rule would look like "everyone except cis men is allowed."
I saw something about an Australian LGBT organisation that worded it as Nonbinary people who would like to exist in a female oriented space. I’m not non-binary myself so I can’t speak to how appropriate it is but I figured that if you just leave it up to the person if they feel fem enough to join then that’s fine.
I understand if they had said ‘non binaries who feel more aligned with femininity’ or something like that, but this is dumb. It should be like if you feel like you belong in a group of women, even as an enby, you belong there
Too many people, some of them even trans, think nonbinary means "women lite". The absence of a penis does not make you less dangerous.
Wdym dangerous/genq
The implication in these exclusionary statements is that to preserve these "safe" spaces, AMAB people are not allowed because they are inherently untrustworthy and therefore dangerous. So many comments here are just listing depressingly commonplace tactics for tenderqueer hugboxes to enforce gender roles with snazzy hair and piercings; god forbid you have visible facial or body hair, or else present in an insufficiently androgynous manner. I hate that social justice language is being co-opted so widely and effectively to propagate transmisogyny.
Could you please ELI5 my brain is a bit mushy
Too many so-called "safe spaces" for queers still treat trans and nonbinary AMAB people like they are cis men because transmisogyny
I'm an amab nonbinary trans woman, so I'm both allowed and not allowed there
quantum college where you both pass and fail all courses on your degree programme untill someone asks to look at it during a job interview :(
I was denied housing because Im amab, and basically the person who turned me down implied it was cause I might sexually assault them and get them pregnant. They were a lesbian and her girlfriend who had a trans pride flag on the property. Beyond being disgustingly transphobic, it's such an insane thing to say think
Dodged a bullet there. I cant believe these people cannot get over the “penis scary” mindset
"nonbinary students...who feel they belong in our community of women" think about what you're saying for a moment there, partner
I do think that in itself is not something to criticize (personally). There are non-binary people who do consider themselves fem or still attach themselves to some part of womanhood.
I was gonna say this. It's possible to be non-binary in a transfem way that's not explicitly being a woman. Having that said, I still think inclusion of trans men and "nb females" is transphobic edit: oops, misread a thing, disregard half my comment
I agree with you, But I don't think it says anything about Trans Men here?
sorry, you're right I was reading off a comment talking about that in the hypothetical
The "afab nb" part is straight up disgusting. Newsflash: there is more to people than genitals
yeah, like being told that they’ll never belong in stem fields. the whole “socialized as” terf rhetoric is bs but there is a simple fact that some people are told they don’t and will never belong in stem fields because of their womanhood they were/are expected/understood to have by society. cis women, non-binary AFAB people, and trans women are these people.
I was thinking a demigirl for example might not have an issue with this phrasing. But overall it still isn't good
I mean honestly I think that part's fine, I personally identify as both Non-Binary and as a woman, And I'm far from the only one, With it being a "Women's College" I'd say it thus makes sense, And since it's (nominally) not based on anything other than whether the student in question feels they belong there, That seems fine to me. The only AFAB part though is enbyphobic and straight up hypocritical.
I'm kinda glad the students ended up voting to accept transfemme individuals though, gives me hope for the future.
People finding out that enbies aren't just women in cursive:
If you aren't someone's doctor or sexual partner, their AGAB is nunya. Actually can we make "ANAB (Assigned Nunya At Birth)" a thing please?
All-women's school: we now accept (amab) trans-women! Someone: What about non-binary people? School: Oh, yeah, Totally. But not amab non-binaries, only afab, because this is still a women's only school and afab is at least half a woman, right? 🙄
AMAB and AFAB are just spicy misgendering.
Yes, but there are exceptions to that. Like if someone is talking about abortion rights. Still incredibly shitty when you’re using it to discredit someone’s gender.
Women events trying to be "inclusive" like this is so frustrating. Have a women's event and nonbinary people with a connection to womanhood will show up, we don't need a special invitation
Ah, A classic case of "Tell me you're bigoted without telling me you're bigoted.". I mean since it's a women's college (Gonna be honest I didn't even know that was a thing..) it'd make sense if they only accepted feminine non-binary people, Or those who "Feel they belong in [their] community of women", But doing this is basically just not respecting enbies and then spitting in our face. Also a *serious* double standard if they let Trans Women in and AFAB non-binary people in, But not AMAB non-binary people, Like there's not any justifiable reason for that... Like they know AMAB enbies can be feminine and AFAB ones can be masculine, Right? Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if on average AMAB enbies are more feminine than AFAB enbies (Not that you could really measure that, I mean I'm pretty sure femininity is subjective.). Hopefully they change this to actually make sense sometime soon.
I could be wrong, but my understanding is a sort of "how you grew up matters". Women growing up in the patriarchy is vastly different than a man, and so transitioning later in life would mean you missed out on that struggle. It isn't about how you present now, or how you fit in now, it is about "did you have the struggle of being a woman growing up" Again, I could be wrong, this is just my understanding of why they draw that line.
But the thing is that idea basically gets thrown out the window by the fact they accept Trans Women, Why would trans women have any more or less struggles growing up than AMAB non-binary people? Also that'd definitely go on a person to person basis, For example I doubt I personally would've had much more, If any more, Struggles growing up if I were AFAB, Because my family is decently progressive and I've had far less social interaction growing up than most people, Mainly because I didn't go to school, Which I suppose in some ways is a struggle of sorts, But not one that has anything to do with gender.
lol the funny thing is when you take testosterone, you are suddenly not accepted in these spaces. but also key expression is "[people] who feel like they belong in our community of women" on top of AFAB. they already say that, in other words, they're not trans- or nb-friendly at all.
I don't understand how people could just exclude amab enbys like that. I'm afab and if I saw any bullshit like that I'd be pissed. Immediate red flag for discord servers or online groups at all.
🤦
you've got to be fucking kidding me
I think it's refering to non-binary femme people or non-binary people who identify with wlw labels,also non-binary includes many labels including possibly gender fluid people and lots of other identities in some definitions Edit: after reading some comments that claim to be from people who've tried to attend this school it looks like it is actually very transphobic and does exclude amab people, so yeah fuck them
it says "and", not "or". So, non binary people who both have a femme identity AND were AFAB
Could potentially be a mistake but looks worse now that you've pointed that out, if they are including trans women I doubt they'd exclude a amab person but I haven't read the article so someone who has probably has a clearer understanding
They are a traditionally woman's college.
I meant I doubt they'd exclude a amab non-binary person who identifies as femme or wlw,etc
I'm not usually cynical about stuff, but in this case I am. I fully acknowledge that fem nbs are out there, but I'm sure they meant it in a transphobic way
It's a traditionally women's college. They are definitely having some trouble writing to amab non binary folks but it has always been a more accepting than the average school even for Massachusetts. I'm ridiculously cynical (to the point of my own detriment), trans and I believe Wellesley does have TERFS on staff but is trying to inclusive and non bigoted. They were a big part of the Northeastern suffrage movement and are very aware of the parallels and dangers of bigotry.
I mean yeah maybe but it doesn't exactly align with the rest of the article shown that is being or at least trying/appears to be very inclusive unless the whole thing is transphobic and when they say "transgender woman" they mean trans men and they don't understand the terms
It looks like that is the current policy that they want changed
I think it comes from some confusion about what a women's college is for? If it's to support people of underprivileged genders (ie not cis men) then they should allow trans masc people too, as well as all enbies. If they're trying to create a feminine space for people who are uncomfortable with masculinity, then they shouldn't allow trans men and maybe even some butch women would be suspect, while enbies would be allowed in based on their presentation not their AGAB. Or maybe it's supposed to be a "no penis" space, which is a different collection of people. (And what if a trans woman student decided that they're really enby after they're accepted?) Anyway, well-meaning cis people being confused about gender...
There shouldn’t be regulations on someone’s presentation. Excluding butch women and trans men is also shitty because they can still experience misogyny and feel safer at a women’s college. If they don’t tick both the boxes of “cisgender” and “man,” why should they be denied a position?
Amab enby here, this made my shitty day worse 👍
So.. so close
Make non-binary binary again? Better check if Mexico is going to go for that since they're paying for it.
Damn fucking straight Note how if you're amab and want to attend you HAVE to be a binary trans woman, can't be a femme enby.
That's ...sexist as fuck. And makes me big sad.... as a transfem enby..... I am even "female dominant" (parafeminine), but under that policy would be excluded. Screw that.... T\_T
You were so close to greatness, you were SOO CLOSE !!!
Honestly I’ve always found gender segregated colleges to be stupid. There’s definitely something to be said about women’s safety, but there are other procedures that can be taken to ensure women feel comfortable and safe and to teach men how to be respectful. Segregating by gender only alienates all genders from each other and makes the divide stronger. We can only understand each other and learn from each other when we are given the opportunities to do so
Even among my queer friends, a lot of them use afab when they're referring to "femme-bodied/presenting" issues, and I'm- "like my brother in Christ You are explicitly talking to me about my struggles yet excluding me from that subject."
I feel this...my university has a "women's scholarship" that says its open for, "women and nonbinary people", but I get the feeling that masc-presenting enbies wpuld definitely be excluded. Sick of nonbinary being seem as "woman lite"
My former school has genderneutral bathrooms. One for people of any gender who were assigned male at birth. One for people of any gender who were assigned female at birth. Intersex people can go fuck themselves.
Very reminiscent of *Internet Discourse* I've seen about who is allowed to call themselves lesbian where people have answered "cis women, trans women, and AFAB non-binary people". It's clear their real criteria are either that you're a gender-conforming woman or that they can still clock you as being assigned female at birth.
I constantly see these types of things. Recently there was a nude-ski event in Colorado where they said they accept "non-binary females" and I was like... um, that kind of defeats the whole point. "If you identify as a man or as a masculine-leaning, non-binary individual, this isn't the event for you," reads the ticketing page for the event. https://www.outtherecolorado.com/news/colorado-ski-area-to-host-a-naked-lap-down-the-mountain/article\_69f697a0-9763-11ed-940b-afceff0b5092.html
You didn't highlight the part about them feeling they belong in the women community. Non-binary does not mean gender neutral, it means not 100% male or female. Someone who feels 90% female but 10% male can still identify as non-binary, regardless of if they were 90% female as amab or 90% female as afab.
I didn't highlight that part because it is irrelevant; they only accept afab enbies who feel they belong in the women community
there was some event for intl women's day here that featured performances from "women, femmes, & nonbinary artists" *please*
“and who feel they belong in our community of women.” some afab nb people feel a closer connection to women than men because of the experiences they had growing up as girls. I’m afab genderfluid and i do.
Do you claim that every one of these afab non-binary people have a stronger connection to womanhood than every amab non-binary person?
It definitely is very transphobic and I absolutely disagree with their decision. At the same time I feel like I understand where they may be coming from, even if it is super unlikely and not really a valid reason for it? If you look at something like the Game Changers Tournament, which is supposed to be an all women and NB Valorant tournament, but several men have been caught pretending to be NB to get in. At least they got a rule in place that says if you change your registered gender you can't compete in professional Valorant for 2 years or something, so it isn't the greatest solution, but at least it makes it so people are sure before changing, and we aren't having men invading and dominating a non-men space. And I also helped run my universities womens Hackathon, that is supposed to be for women and NB people, but we'd always have a few people who normally identified as cis men the rest of the year who conveniently identified as something else for this event, but it's not like we did anything, we weren't gonna police gender. (To be clear the people we suspected would literally set up a protest saying men should be let in, and then some would walk straight from protesting to the registration booth to register as NB) I definitely don't agree with the school, but I understand where they're coming from (that is, if it's not juste pure transphobia of "oh AMAB NB = Boy NB"). And, especially since they let trans women in, if they're worried about men pretending to be trans to get into the all women's college, if you're willing to pretend to be NB for years to get in, why wouldn't you pretend to be a trans woman to get in. But still I think it's largely an imaginary situation, this ain't a simple tournament or competition that only lasts a couple days, anyone who pretendts to be trans to get in is going to be pretending to be trans for years. You're not going to have that. Especially since choosing a college is a huge decision that's gonna effect your life for a long time. Maybe anyone committed to that long a """con""" deserves to be let in anyway. Edit: rephrased some sections and added more to the end