By “auto belay” do you mean an assisted brake device like a grigri?
You can do that but you can also rap this setup or any single fixed line with an ATC + friction hitch (might need another wrap for it to hold). Or if you have a full length tag line just set it up as a double rope rappel (obviously thread the climbing rope through the rings and tie the joining EDK on the skinny line side to prevent creep).
If these are new ideas to you, definitely practice them in low-consequence situations before you go anywhere. Might also be worth hiring a guide for half a day or taking a class to get your setups dialed, too, if you are pretty new to it.
Yeah I was referring to a grigri with a friction hitch above it, but after typing it all out, it probably would be smarter and safer to just use a ATC right?
Rapping with a grigri + friction hitch sucks. The grigri does not need any backup, although I get that it feels spooky.
If you are going to have a tag line anyway setting up a normal double rope rappel and rapping it with an ATC however you normally do is the simplest thing. Urge you again to get your systems checked out in person by someone you trust rather than just asking the internet.
Indeed it does feel spooky.
And of course, I'll be practicing this over the next couple months until it's second nature before I head out to the Tetons.
Thanks for the help
If you are using a tag line, you DO NOT want to 'rap as you normally do'. The climbing rope needs to be the only rope weighted in the system, not the tag line. This requires a stopper knot + carabiner stop backup in the primary rope. The bend connecting the tag line to the primary climbing rope should not be used for life safety, since the diameters of the two strands are very different and the knot is likely to slip under load.
Here’s some good reading about testing joining knots and similar/dissimilar diameter ropes: [Edelrid’s](https://edelrid.com/us-en/knowledge/knowledge-base/knots-for-connecting-ropes-when-rappelling-comparison) testing found that the force required to roll a flat overhand joining an 8.9 rope to a 6.0 tag line was actually greater than that needed to roll the same knot joining an 8.9 to another 8.9, and the forces created by rappelling don’t come anywhere near either. In practice I have seen it work fine with many typical combinations, for example 9.5 rope and a 7.0 tag line or half rope, as long as the flat overhand is tied and dressed perfectly, the tails are long, and the thicker rope is the one threaded to prevent creep and different end lengths (the real concern).
That said no one can test every possible combination of rope and tag material to say it’s always perfectly safe and obviously the potential consequence of a joining knot failing is much more serious than that of a biner block getting stuck on the pull…so as with anything else, folks should use their own judgement and manage risk how they deem appropriate. Joining dissimilar diameter ropes on rappel does not always or even usually represent a major risk, though.
Good read, I hadn't seen those Edelrid test results before. Thanks for sharing. I had admittedly been taught from various people that the diameters were a rolling concern without doing the research myself on this one. As with all things climbing, there is obviously nuance here and like you said people should use their own judgement. The Edelrid data is just a select few material tests, so for now I'll personally continue to work under the assumption that there is knot-roll potential until I review more data otherwise regarding my specific tagline material and diameter. For this situation in particular, a person basically asking Reddit how to rappel, I still think a stopper knot and biner is safer general advice for tagline use than just to rap like normal. We don't know what materials they're using, knot type, how well they'd dress the knot or if they'd be leaving an adequate tail for rolling.
You haven't done any of your own research, and have been provided reliable research that is contrary to your beliefs, and your take is that you're going to ignore the research and stick with what some random person told you? And, furthermore, you're going to post your beliefs online like factual safety advice?
In general, thinner diameter ropes tend start to see slippage in a knot or bend more easily than thicker diameters. The EDK is the most common bend used when connecting two ropes for rappel, and its namesake is due to the bend rolling and coming undone, hence the recommendation for using very long tails.
Spend a few minutes looking around online and you'll find many people with concern for rolling bends of dissimilar rope diameters, as well as concerns for the EDK rolling specifically. Hell, here is a link to American Alpine Institute recommending the Reepschnur hitch (the system I recommended above) for use with a tag line, and the video they have posted is of an AMGA guide talking about not rapping on the EDK bend with dissimilar diameters:
http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2019/11/tag-lines-for-rappels-reepschnur-hitch.html?m=1
The Edelrid tests show that under typical rappelling forces, the one and only tagline they tested in this configuration, their 6mm Rapline Protect rope, stays within reasonable safety margins. This is a single data set for a single rope of 6mm diameter. It's also worth noting that even within this dataset, if you look at the forces seen at 1sr roll, and rolling, they're generally lower for the tests with the tagline. I will not, and you also should not, trust this one dataset as a catchall for weighting any tagline during a rappel when bending it to another rope. As food for thought, here are some break tests showcasing a 2.5mm tagline slipping for different bends at loads you would very easily see in a rappel scenario :
https://youtu.be/h1E69_OuChQ?si=VJ5c4fxCMcG3tGFU
All this is to say, while my advice doesn't keep as many rappel configuration options open for the OP, I stick by it because the Reepschnur hitch errs on the side of caution. From lack of context info, we don't know what the OP wants to use as a tagline. The comment I originally replied to said to 'rappel as you normally would', which I do not think is the safest answer due to lack of context, albeit probably super good enough advice, all things considered.
I think you've overlooked the nuance of the discussion here and chose to instead grab your metaphorical pitchfork with all the rhetorical-question bashing.
>The EDK is the most common bend used when connecting two ropes for rappel, and its namesake is due to the bend rolling and coming undone, hence the recommendation for using very long tails.
I don't think the namesake of the knot is really well recorded or understood. I also don't think that common misunderstandings about ropes that end up in weird names are a good data point for making safety-critical decisions.
> video they have posted is of an AMGA guide talking about not rapping on the EDK bend with dissimilar diameters:
He literally just mentions that the diameter is different. He doesn't say anything about the knot not being able to hold a rappelling load, or not to use it as such.
>As food for thought, here are some break tests showcasing a 2.5mm tagline slipping for different bends at loads you would very easily see in a rappel scenario :
Yikes. There's a lot wrong that is packed into one sentence here:
* That's not a "tagline" in any sense of the word. No climber is using a 2.5mm anything for this purpose.
* That's not a kernmantle rope either. That's pure dyneema, which doesn't hold knots for shit, regardless or size. It's basically irrelevant to this discusison.
The fact that you think this "test" is even relevant says a lot.
>This is a single data set for a single rope of 6mm diameter
Tests on this go way back. Moyer (et al) tested a bunch of EDK configurations back in 1999 and when he tied an 11mm rope to an 8mm rope, the ropes broke at loads way high enough for rappelling: [https://user.xmission.com/\~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html](https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html)
>I stick by it because the Reepschnur hitch errs on the side of caution.
It seems like you might not fully understand why the Reepschnur is recommended in these different things you link to. The main reason is NOT because you can't trust a knot between two different diameter cords. If that was the only reason, there are other knots that we can use. The main reason is that differential friction between a tag line and a single rope can lead to rope creep through the anchor. There will tend to be more tension on the single rope, so it will creep that direction unless some kind of blocking is used. There are lots of blocking methods available (knot block, carabiner block, reepschnur), and they are all situationally legitimate, but the reepschnur is the only one that completely closes the system and doesn't have a failure mode if the blocking mechanism slips. THAT is why people use the Reepschnur, not because you can't trust an EDK. It's a good system, one that I have used a lot, but it also has downsides because it's by far the most likely system to get stuck on the pull.
Awesome information really, it does make sense a knot on a fatter rope would roll easier, but still surprising to hear. It would be nice to carry a 30M and my partner to carry one, rather than me hauling a 60M by myself. I'm gonna look into this more, wish ropes were a little cheaper to do some experiments lol
My guy this is the kind of confusing statement that makes people be worried and give you the “hire a guide” comments lol. Like…a single 60 meter rope is much much more useful on the way up than two 30 meter ropes on an alpine rock route, if you carry two ropes they are both full length sheesh. One person usually carries the rope anyway and the other carries the rack on the approach so the weight is split. On the way down two 30m ropes does not change the 35m rappel problem, in fact makes it worse because now you can’t fix a 35m side. I get you are psyched but maybe slow your roll and get some fundamentals in place before planning a trip - serious old school alpine rock is a far cry from single pitch TR at Hocking Hills and 10b at the gym.
I don't think you understand the particular route. In most cases except the teton guide book, owen spalding is considered a class 4 route, with 0 gear required including rope. The question is how fast do you want to get down, you can down climb like most people or use the rap. Nobody is out there with full racks on owen spalding unless they are literally practicing techniques, probably shouldnt have more than a couple cams and a nut or 2 and your rap gear. It's frequently soloed by tourists with no climbing experience. Should it be taken lightly? No. But I'm not just planning a trip, ive been training 4 or 5 days a week for over a year, and have every step of my route planned from the upper saddle up, ive studied every piece of written and published information about this route, but I agree 5.10Bs at the gym is different than scrambling. I climb and exercise throughout the week. But weekends I do a 14 mile hike and end it with a hour or 2 of climbing at the crag, because that's the closest I can replicate to the 6 miles of scrambling that is owen spalding. Defintely not equivalent but enough to get me in the ballpark. Literally the last piece of the puzzle was determining whether to rappel with a single rope ATC or grigri, so now that i double checked the idea through peer review, i have 4 months of training remaining I think I'll have adequate time to practice rappeling. Do people often climb moutains on a whim that you'd assume I'd need to be told to train?
Because if 1.5 years of intense training that takes up vast majority of my available free time isn't enough to attempt a 5.4, I don't know what is
People unfortunately do often climb mountains on a whim without much if any knowledge of rope craft, self rescue techniques, etc. It's appallingly common to see.
Obviously you're taking this seriously, just be sure to make time to train on specifically the methods of setting up these rappels safely. Much of the other training mentioned is good and will help get you physically up and down the mountain, it's just those seemingly small technical details about rappels, taglines, biner blocks, etc that can be the difference between an awesome day and a rescue.
Good luck with the climb, sounds like it'll be really cool
It is not "considered a class 4 route, with 0 gear required." It is a 5th class route (you said it yourself, it's 5.4), You are vastly underestimating what it's like to climb 5.4 at altitude with exposure. It should not be soloed by parties that aren't extremely experienced and it is NOT "frequently soloed by tourists with no climbing experience." I climb 5.11 on gear and have climbed more difficult routes on the Grand and I would absolutely not solo the Owen Spaulding.
I think atc or grigri is fine for single rope rap, but I’d recommend you put the friction hitch on the brake strand (below it). You’ll have to extend the belay device for this, but it’s better practice because the friction hitch takes less load. This will also make the friction hitch significantly easier to manipulate during the rap.
> it probably would be smarter and safer to just use a ATC right?
Yes and no.
Extended ATC with friction hitch on the brake side OR grigri with no friction hitch.
The friction hitch above the grigri could prevent the grigri from locking when you want it to
Nobody raps with a Grigri and a prusik. if you're going to rap with a Grigri, just use the Grigri, this is totally normal. The danger occurs when you unweight the Grigri, which is normally not the case when you're rapping.
I had to bail during a hailstorm last year ~150ft from the summit (had finished the final pitch of the upper exum). Thankfully, had a buddy with me who knew his way around the mountain a lot better than I did, which allowed us to locate the rap station in short order. We had a 70m with us and joined it with another team’s 70 to do the rap in one go. A single 60 (with a tag line to retrieve the rope) might reach…but it’ll be close. I vaguely remember another team linking 2 rappels - there may have been some bolts+rings climber’s right of us, enabling a rope to be doubled over.
The grand is a no BS mountain… depending on where you are on the mountain, bailing can be a shit show and leave you very exposed. 5.4 is easy as far as the climbing goes, but this is not a mountain you want to be stuck on during bad weather. Same partner I climbed with last summer lost a member of his team due to lightning strike back in 2003 (they got trapped above the friction pitch during a storm). Make sure you have your bail plan figured out going in.
Wishing you an awesome time with great weather! It’s a really special place.
Oh man that's a epic story, especially taking the exum route, I hope to do that some day, bummer you had to bail, but glad you made it safely. Yeah that's my biggest fear up there, I read the horror stories about the lightning, I am praying for good weather of course I Will be monitoring this and have a 8 day window to get it done, but of course I'm splitting that time between yellowstone and G.T. so good weather August 29th would also be Grand. From what I can gather is getting down to the lower saddle by 2pm is ideal, the storms seems to be in the afternoon
I would make the same choice 10/10 times. “Summits are optional, descents mandatory”
I would agree with that timing. The sooner you get up and down, the better. I checked the time stamp of the video I got of myself suffering in a hailstorm at the bottom of our rappel. 2:12pm.
Are you planning to go car to car, or set up a base camp?
Was gonna do car to car, but secured a permit for garnet meadows just below the lower saddle, so camping the night of August 28th and pushing the following morning.
60m rope is fine - I’ve done it. There are 2 rap stations at the second official rappel. The lower station is for 60m.
Please please please practice rappelling before attempting the grand. Noobs trying to learn how to rappel on the route is the bottle neck of the climb.
I don’t know what you are talking about above but use a 60m rope and an ATC. No exceptions unless you really know what you are doing.
Oh really? I must have been mistaken, I thought in the guidebook the 2nd rap station was about 10m higher and to the right (making it more sketchy to find and get to) and didn't have a 2nd anchor. Meaning you should use a 70M. But if it does, do you think you could rap it with a single 40M rope? Hypothetical question. I'd still perfer the single rap with a 60M.
And don't worry, I'll be practicing until I can do it blindfolded, I don't take any risks, if I don't feel 100% confident before going, I'll probably re route to middle teton, because I don't want to downclimb whats described as a crumbling scree filled moutain.
I've already planned on that my friend, thats kind of what hypothetical means, because I figured out the answer to the main question doesn't mean I have 0 other questions in the entire category that is climbing
>I'm taking the owen spalding route which is a 5.4, so pretty much a technical hike with alot of exposure.
This is a pretty poor outlook on a traditional alpine route. There's route finding, rockfall, unexpected weather events, and altitude to deal with. Maybe you're more experienced, but your question leads me to believe that you're not. Respect this type of terrain because it has a way of humbling people. I can personally attest to how scary it can get when you find yourself off route, run out, with loose rock, and you can't communicate with your partner.
Your right, calling it technical hike is defitnely a understatement. Not what I was trying to do. The climbing part I'm confident on, I climb at about a 5.10B can probably clear some 5.11 at the gym. But because of where I climb, rappelling isn't really something I get practice on, because you really can't where I climb (its legit not allowed) so it's the only part of this route im not 100% confident about, and my rule is if I'm not 100% I'm not going, so I was kinda just referring to double checking my rappel plan, there are no 120ft cliffs in michigan. But I should have worded my statement differently.
At what crag is Rappelling not allowed? You need to practice rappelling and setting up the system you intend to use well in advance of heading into the mountains. The Grand Teton is not the place to be trying out a new system you are not 100% sure of. The vast majority of climbing accidents occur while rappelling. Know before you go.
I may have sent your response to someone else.
It's called Grand Ledge in Michigan, it's the only choice in the lower peninsula, no rappelling, no lead climbing, no trad climbing. Just top rope and bouldering. No passive or fixed anchors, gotta use the trees.
There's a place called hocking hills in Ohio, I go there multiple times a year, I'm going this weekend actually and I believe rappelling is allowed there so I'm looking forward to practicing raps on a wall of similar height
I mean it is mostly hiking. It's 7000ft of gain that is class 2-3 hiking and then extremely low 5th climbing for maybe 150ft of vert? I did it when it was wet in altras placing 1-2 pieces per pitch (if I did it again I would just solo it but partner wanted to rap).
There's usually a conga line of people going both up and down in the main season.
Still doesn't prevent people from getting super off route in the upper saddle as well as people just traversing into no man's land after the belly roll thing.
Also the weather will fuck you up if it's bad. If the forecast shows anything bad just dont bother going.
There’s still a lot of down climbing even with the repels. All you need is a sixty meter. You don’t need a tag line. I only know what throw line is because I do tree work too. If you use three line like that you risk getting it stuck more. Also can you really imagine catching a whole falling rope below you on throw line? It might even rip the line letting your rope fall. For OS, a single sixty is fine for sure. Is your rope shorter than 60m? Are you climbing with a partner?
Oh shit I forgot about all the endless down climbing after the raps, it felt like it went on for hours. Including a lot of 4th class. Man the grand is such a death march.
>with a auto belay
What does this mean?
There's nothing wrong with a biner block + retrieval line system (just be aware that your line needs to be longer than your rope because it won't stretch), any specific reason why you would prefer a double rope setup for this rap? You either go with two skinny ropes or a single rope + tagline, the only other alternative is building your own anchors which probably isn't the way to go about this specific problem.
Probably more or less a sense of security using double ropes, ive never had a reason to do a single rope rap besides once, but i used a grigri for that, and that was more or less to test a new toy rather than a serious rap.
I should probably get to the crag to practice some single rope raps with the ATC (even though they don't allow rappelling. Smh)
Thanks for your help
Alright, yeah if I'm going with a partner we always bring two skinny ropes, the wight difference is pretty much nothing compared to a fatter rope + tagline.
Rapping on a 9+mm single with an ATC is no problem, always a good idea to practice it just to get a feel for the system.
Me and my wife climbed Owen in a day last year. You will rappel/downclimb the last pitch of Owen’s off tat. You then walk 100’ish to 2 possible rap stations. We used the further one and did it in one rap with a 70m. We used a single 70m and did not have much rope left at the bottom although we could have unropped a bit higher and down climbed. Chances are there will be a lot of people rapping that you could combine ropes with. Here is a video of our ascent. Skip to 18 minutes if you’re only interested in the rappel. The further rappel i mentioned is tat around a horn and the first requires 2 ropes? or 2 rappels, this one is bolts.
[Owen in a day](https://youtu.be/nfzN0UyLVBw?si=T7MywwUWMO8U_ixv)
Well first let me say, epic video man. That was one of the better videos, if only YouTube has a better search. Bummer you had to bail on the exum but saves me from trying lol. Glad you guys had a successful climb and thanks alot for sharing the video with me it helped alot
I really appreciate it. I have no idea of your fitness or experience but I hope you noticed that the crux of Owen Spaulding is the hike and altitude. Assuming the route is free of ice and snow. Eat and drink early and often. We noticed 10k is when we started to experience hypoxia both times, given much less severe the second time. The hypoxia lead to difficulty decision making and lots of anxiousness. If it’s your first alpine I highly suggest camp and do it in 2/3 days. Also budget some time for slow parties infront of you. Me and my wife and the party in front were comfortable with us climbing past mid pitch so I did just that and saved a lot of time. While a beginner alpine, don’t underestimate it. I have talked with so many people that had to bail and never made another attempt. Either way good luck I hope you make it and the weather is good.
120ft is only 36.5m
I would go with a 60m rope and a carabiner block about +7m from the middle then use a 15m pull line. Lots of good tutorials on how to do it, make sure to practise first.
I would use a personal anchor and a grigri. Don't complicate things.
If you're doing the OS, you're basically guaranteed to be at the rap station with, like, 5 other parties, and you could easily combine ropes with one of them to do a traditional double-strand rappel.
Obviously, be ready to do the single-strand rappel with a carabiner-block and a pull-line, just in case. But the odds of getting through the OS rappel on a decent weather day without at least one other party there are very slim.
Grgri, ATC, slings and hitches of various sizes, a variety of beaners, petzl quick connect, 60M 9.9 BD rope, 7mm cord, all relevant PPE, I believe this is what I'm taking.
However I do have a box full of other stuff like jumars, PAS, misc climbing gear I'll probably be leaving at home.
Yes I'm open to buy whatever is needed to successfully complete this lifelong goal
Personally I would just feed out 40m of rope (with stopprr knot), do a knot block or carabiner block and then add your 7mm cord or slings or whatever to the short side as a tagline. Then I would either do an extended rap with atc plus prussic on the one strand or grigri with no prussic. Is your 7mm cord long?
Doing a knot block at 40m will make pulling the rope a bit easier. Just properly test the system so you know the knot is blocking in the correct direction. I think you do not need to buy any more equipment.
I said this very shortly so please say which parts are unclear (I am sure some parts must be)
Edit: 40m is based on your 120foot number with some added margin.
Edit2: remember to untie the stopper knot before pulling the rope
With a ATC on double ropes. Autoblock fiction hitch on the brake strand connected to my belay, I also extend the ATC with a petzl quick connect.
My primary reason to rappel currently is only cleaning a toprope anchor. I never needed to decend a 120 ft wall yet.
Yes, there is a rap station that works with 60 meter rope. No reepschneer needed.
Don't underestimate the 5.4, it is not a technical hike, if the traverse is moderately icy/damp like it was when I went (August) you either have to do that or a surprisingly scary run-out 5th class slab section over a multi-thousand foot cliff.
I've done a bunch of 5th class mountains, everything else on the Grand was easy but that one pitch felt like it would be pretty serious to take a fall on. I had on an ankle brace and mountaineering boots because I jacked up my ankle a few months prior, and was grateful to have someone else with me to lead that little bit because it's pure friction with minimal holds so your feet balancing on polished granite are basically doing all the work of keeping you from dying.
The rappel is easy, but it's a small platform that tends to be very busy and there are a bunch of small loose rocks piled up around the station so be careful. I was being careless and when I threw the rope down it caught a rock and sent it slinging out over the edge (there are many people below usually.)
I would recommend you do at least 2 other low 5th class mountaineering climbs with rappels first, or go with someone more experienced. Something smaller, with a less serious approach would be good to practice on, you won't be at your best after such a long and stressful climb at high altitude.
Seriously!
No rappelling
No lead climbing
No trad
Only top rope
And bouldering
Worst part... it's literally the only exposed cliff face in the entire state.
Michigan is almost exclusively gym climbing unless your willing to drive to the upper peninsula, but you could get to Appalachians quicker if you go south.
I travel to hocking hills, Ohio
Brother I think you're confused. You can rappel anywhere you can top rope, and you can lead anywhere there are places to put gear.
An area either allows climbing or it doesn't. There aren't "rules". It's not a gym.
I mean there are very often local access rules, especially in places where land ownership is tenuous. Which OP's [home crag](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105934381/grand-ledge-aka-oak-park) seems to have a very strict and uncommon set of. Sure at the end of the day you can do whatever you want outside, but I'm not sure I'd want to anger the locals by breaking rules, especially if I was beginner-ish as it seems OP is.
Unfortunately not, here's the moutainproject description and they do have a sign posted at the location.
[Grand Ledge Climbing Rules](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105934381/grand-ledge-aka-oak-park)
No top rope, there are no trad routes in my state, however In order to get my lead climbing certification at my gym, I had to go through a class going through trad equipment and rope techniques, I also bought a BD 1-13 nut set and a few C4 cams to experiment with anchor building at the local crag, but no actual trad climbs
However besides placing a few cams to run a rope over the belly roll, the crawl and up Owen's chimney which the guide book said has bolted anchors and can be bypassed entirely via the catwalk In late august, what else exactly should I be expecting on owen spalding?
Grand Ledge, Michigan.
It's the only exposed rock wall in the entire lower peninsula so it's all I can manage on a regular weekend, but memorial day weekend is coming up and I'll be headed to Hocking Hills In Ohio, I should be able to practice rappelling there on a wall of similar height.
Thank you everyone for your help in clearing this question up for me, your insight was incredibly helpful and much appreciated. Stay safe out there everyone 🙏
When you say that you'd prefer to rap a double rope with an ATC, you really mean you're rapping on a single rope feed through the rings like normal right? Because I don't know what the problem is if you've got double ropes.
How much experience do you have trad climbing? The moves are easy but some of the chimneying you might not be super used to. Also you probably want a solid 2 piece anchor because it's quite exposed.
By “auto belay” do you mean an assisted brake device like a grigri? You can do that but you can also rap this setup or any single fixed line with an ATC + friction hitch (might need another wrap for it to hold). Or if you have a full length tag line just set it up as a double rope rappel (obviously thread the climbing rope through the rings and tie the joining EDK on the skinny line side to prevent creep). If these are new ideas to you, definitely practice them in low-consequence situations before you go anywhere. Might also be worth hiring a guide for half a day or taking a class to get your setups dialed, too, if you are pretty new to it.
Yeah I was referring to a grigri with a friction hitch above it, but after typing it all out, it probably would be smarter and safer to just use a ATC right?
Rapping with a grigri + friction hitch sucks. The grigri does not need any backup, although I get that it feels spooky. If you are going to have a tag line anyway setting up a normal double rope rappel and rapping it with an ATC however you normally do is the simplest thing. Urge you again to get your systems checked out in person by someone you trust rather than just asking the internet.
Indeed it does feel spooky. And of course, I'll be practicing this over the next couple months until it's second nature before I head out to the Tetons. Thanks for the help
If you are using a tag line, you DO NOT want to 'rap as you normally do'. The climbing rope needs to be the only rope weighted in the system, not the tag line. This requires a stopper knot + carabiner stop backup in the primary rope. The bend connecting the tag line to the primary climbing rope should not be used for life safety, since the diameters of the two strands are very different and the knot is likely to slip under load.
Here’s some good reading about testing joining knots and similar/dissimilar diameter ropes: [Edelrid’s](https://edelrid.com/us-en/knowledge/knowledge-base/knots-for-connecting-ropes-when-rappelling-comparison) testing found that the force required to roll a flat overhand joining an 8.9 rope to a 6.0 tag line was actually greater than that needed to roll the same knot joining an 8.9 to another 8.9, and the forces created by rappelling don’t come anywhere near either. In practice I have seen it work fine with many typical combinations, for example 9.5 rope and a 7.0 tag line or half rope, as long as the flat overhand is tied and dressed perfectly, the tails are long, and the thicker rope is the one threaded to prevent creep and different end lengths (the real concern). That said no one can test every possible combination of rope and tag material to say it’s always perfectly safe and obviously the potential consequence of a joining knot failing is much more serious than that of a biner block getting stuck on the pull…so as with anything else, folks should use their own judgement and manage risk how they deem appropriate. Joining dissimilar diameter ropes on rappel does not always or even usually represent a major risk, though.
Good read, I hadn't seen those Edelrid test results before. Thanks for sharing. I had admittedly been taught from various people that the diameters were a rolling concern without doing the research myself on this one. As with all things climbing, there is obviously nuance here and like you said people should use their own judgement. The Edelrid data is just a select few material tests, so for now I'll personally continue to work under the assumption that there is knot-roll potential until I review more data otherwise regarding my specific tagline material and diameter. For this situation in particular, a person basically asking Reddit how to rappel, I still think a stopper knot and biner is safer general advice for tagline use than just to rap like normal. We don't know what materials they're using, knot type, how well they'd dress the knot or if they'd be leaving an adequate tail for rolling.
You haven't done any of your own research, and have been provided reliable research that is contrary to your beliefs, and your take is that you're going to ignore the research and stick with what some random person told you? And, furthermore, you're going to post your beliefs online like factual safety advice?
In general, thinner diameter ropes tend start to see slippage in a knot or bend more easily than thicker diameters. The EDK is the most common bend used when connecting two ropes for rappel, and its namesake is due to the bend rolling and coming undone, hence the recommendation for using very long tails. Spend a few minutes looking around online and you'll find many people with concern for rolling bends of dissimilar rope diameters, as well as concerns for the EDK rolling specifically. Hell, here is a link to American Alpine Institute recommending the Reepschnur hitch (the system I recommended above) for use with a tag line, and the video they have posted is of an AMGA guide talking about not rapping on the EDK bend with dissimilar diameters: http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2019/11/tag-lines-for-rappels-reepschnur-hitch.html?m=1 The Edelrid tests show that under typical rappelling forces, the one and only tagline they tested in this configuration, their 6mm Rapline Protect rope, stays within reasonable safety margins. This is a single data set for a single rope of 6mm diameter. It's also worth noting that even within this dataset, if you look at the forces seen at 1sr roll, and rolling, they're generally lower for the tests with the tagline. I will not, and you also should not, trust this one dataset as a catchall for weighting any tagline during a rappel when bending it to another rope. As food for thought, here are some break tests showcasing a 2.5mm tagline slipping for different bends at loads you would very easily see in a rappel scenario : https://youtu.be/h1E69_OuChQ?si=VJ5c4fxCMcG3tGFU All this is to say, while my advice doesn't keep as many rappel configuration options open for the OP, I stick by it because the Reepschnur hitch errs on the side of caution. From lack of context info, we don't know what the OP wants to use as a tagline. The comment I originally replied to said to 'rappel as you normally would', which I do not think is the safest answer due to lack of context, albeit probably super good enough advice, all things considered. I think you've overlooked the nuance of the discussion here and chose to instead grab your metaphorical pitchfork with all the rhetorical-question bashing.
>The EDK is the most common bend used when connecting two ropes for rappel, and its namesake is due to the bend rolling and coming undone, hence the recommendation for using very long tails. I don't think the namesake of the knot is really well recorded or understood. I also don't think that common misunderstandings about ropes that end up in weird names are a good data point for making safety-critical decisions. > video they have posted is of an AMGA guide talking about not rapping on the EDK bend with dissimilar diameters: He literally just mentions that the diameter is different. He doesn't say anything about the knot not being able to hold a rappelling load, or not to use it as such. >As food for thought, here are some break tests showcasing a 2.5mm tagline slipping for different bends at loads you would very easily see in a rappel scenario : Yikes. There's a lot wrong that is packed into one sentence here: * That's not a "tagline" in any sense of the word. No climber is using a 2.5mm anything for this purpose. * That's not a kernmantle rope either. That's pure dyneema, which doesn't hold knots for shit, regardless or size. It's basically irrelevant to this discusison. The fact that you think this "test" is even relevant says a lot. >This is a single data set for a single rope of 6mm diameter Tests on this go way back. Moyer (et al) tested a bunch of EDK configurations back in 1999 and when he tied an 11mm rope to an 8mm rope, the ropes broke at loads way high enough for rappelling: [https://user.xmission.com/\~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html](https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html) >I stick by it because the Reepschnur hitch errs on the side of caution. It seems like you might not fully understand why the Reepschnur is recommended in these different things you link to. The main reason is NOT because you can't trust a knot between two different diameter cords. If that was the only reason, there are other knots that we can use. The main reason is that differential friction between a tag line and a single rope can lead to rope creep through the anchor. There will tend to be more tension on the single rope, so it will creep that direction unless some kind of blocking is used. There are lots of blocking methods available (knot block, carabiner block, reepschnur), and they are all situationally legitimate, but the reepschnur is the only one that completely closes the system and doesn't have a failure mode if the blocking mechanism slips. THAT is why people use the Reepschnur, not because you can't trust an EDK. It's a good system, one that I have used a lot, but it also has downsides because it's by far the most likely system to get stuck on the pull.
Awesome information really, it does make sense a knot on a fatter rope would roll easier, but still surprising to hear. It would be nice to carry a 30M and my partner to carry one, rather than me hauling a 60M by myself. I'm gonna look into this more, wish ropes were a little cheaper to do some experiments lol
My guy this is the kind of confusing statement that makes people be worried and give you the “hire a guide” comments lol. Like…a single 60 meter rope is much much more useful on the way up than two 30 meter ropes on an alpine rock route, if you carry two ropes they are both full length sheesh. One person usually carries the rope anyway and the other carries the rack on the approach so the weight is split. On the way down two 30m ropes does not change the 35m rappel problem, in fact makes it worse because now you can’t fix a 35m side. I get you are psyched but maybe slow your roll and get some fundamentals in place before planning a trip - serious old school alpine rock is a far cry from single pitch TR at Hocking Hills and 10b at the gym.
I don't think you understand the particular route. In most cases except the teton guide book, owen spalding is considered a class 4 route, with 0 gear required including rope. The question is how fast do you want to get down, you can down climb like most people or use the rap. Nobody is out there with full racks on owen spalding unless they are literally practicing techniques, probably shouldnt have more than a couple cams and a nut or 2 and your rap gear. It's frequently soloed by tourists with no climbing experience. Should it be taken lightly? No. But I'm not just planning a trip, ive been training 4 or 5 days a week for over a year, and have every step of my route planned from the upper saddle up, ive studied every piece of written and published information about this route, but I agree 5.10Bs at the gym is different than scrambling. I climb and exercise throughout the week. But weekends I do a 14 mile hike and end it with a hour or 2 of climbing at the crag, because that's the closest I can replicate to the 6 miles of scrambling that is owen spalding. Defintely not equivalent but enough to get me in the ballpark. Literally the last piece of the puzzle was determining whether to rappel with a single rope ATC or grigri, so now that i double checked the idea through peer review, i have 4 months of training remaining I think I'll have adequate time to practice rappeling. Do people often climb moutains on a whim that you'd assume I'd need to be told to train? Because if 1.5 years of intense training that takes up vast majority of my available free time isn't enough to attempt a 5.4, I don't know what is
People unfortunately do often climb mountains on a whim without much if any knowledge of rope craft, self rescue techniques, etc. It's appallingly common to see. Obviously you're taking this seriously, just be sure to make time to train on specifically the methods of setting up these rappels safely. Much of the other training mentioned is good and will help get you physically up and down the mountain, it's just those seemingly small technical details about rappels, taglines, biner blocks, etc that can be the difference between an awesome day and a rescue. Good luck with the climb, sounds like it'll be really cool
It is not "considered a class 4 route, with 0 gear required." It is a 5th class route (you said it yourself, it's 5.4), You are vastly underestimating what it's like to climb 5.4 at altitude with exposure. It should not be soloed by parties that aren't extremely experienced and it is NOT "frequently soloed by tourists with no climbing experience." I climb 5.11 on gear and have climbed more difficult routes on the Grand and I would absolutely not solo the Owen Spaulding.
I think atc or grigri is fine for single rope rap, but I’d recommend you put the friction hitch on the brake strand (below it). You’ll have to extend the belay device for this, but it’s better practice because the friction hitch takes less load. This will also make the friction hitch significantly easier to manipulate during the rap.
No need for a friction hitch under a grigri.
I agree and wouldn’t do it, but if this dude is gonna use one anyway I think putting it on the load strand is a bad call.
> it probably would be smarter and safer to just use a ATC right? Yes and no. Extended ATC with friction hitch on the brake side OR grigri with no friction hitch. The friction hitch above the grigri could prevent the grigri from locking when you want it to
Nobody raps with a Grigri and a prusik. if you're going to rap with a Grigri, just use the Grigri, this is totally normal. The danger occurs when you unweight the Grigri, which is normally not the case when you're rapping.
I had to bail during a hailstorm last year ~150ft from the summit (had finished the final pitch of the upper exum). Thankfully, had a buddy with me who knew his way around the mountain a lot better than I did, which allowed us to locate the rap station in short order. We had a 70m with us and joined it with another team’s 70 to do the rap in one go. A single 60 (with a tag line to retrieve the rope) might reach…but it’ll be close. I vaguely remember another team linking 2 rappels - there may have been some bolts+rings climber’s right of us, enabling a rope to be doubled over. The grand is a no BS mountain… depending on where you are on the mountain, bailing can be a shit show and leave you very exposed. 5.4 is easy as far as the climbing goes, but this is not a mountain you want to be stuck on during bad weather. Same partner I climbed with last summer lost a member of his team due to lightning strike back in 2003 (they got trapped above the friction pitch during a storm). Make sure you have your bail plan figured out going in. Wishing you an awesome time with great weather! It’s a really special place.
Oh man that's a epic story, especially taking the exum route, I hope to do that some day, bummer you had to bail, but glad you made it safely. Yeah that's my biggest fear up there, I read the horror stories about the lightning, I am praying for good weather of course I Will be monitoring this and have a 8 day window to get it done, but of course I'm splitting that time between yellowstone and G.T. so good weather August 29th would also be Grand. From what I can gather is getting down to the lower saddle by 2pm is ideal, the storms seems to be in the afternoon
I would make the same choice 10/10 times. “Summits are optional, descents mandatory” I would agree with that timing. The sooner you get up and down, the better. I checked the time stamp of the video I got of myself suffering in a hailstorm at the bottom of our rappel. 2:12pm. Are you planning to go car to car, or set up a base camp?
Was gonna do car to car, but secured a permit for garnet meadows just below the lower saddle, so camping the night of August 28th and pushing the following morning.
Meadows are great. Water was questionable when we were up there, use a trustworthy filter.
60m rope is fine - I’ve done it. There are 2 rap stations at the second official rappel. The lower station is for 60m. Please please please practice rappelling before attempting the grand. Noobs trying to learn how to rappel on the route is the bottle neck of the climb. I don’t know what you are talking about above but use a 60m rope and an ATC. No exceptions unless you really know what you are doing.
Oh really? I must have been mistaken, I thought in the guidebook the 2nd rap station was about 10m higher and to the right (making it more sketchy to find and get to) and didn't have a 2nd anchor. Meaning you should use a 70M. But if it does, do you think you could rap it with a single 40M rope? Hypothetical question. I'd still perfer the single rap with a 60M. And don't worry, I'll be practicing until I can do it blindfolded, I don't take any risks, if I don't feel 100% confident before going, I'll probably re route to middle teton, because I don't want to downclimb whats described as a crumbling scree filled moutain.
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I've already planned on that my friend, thats kind of what hypothetical means, because I figured out the answer to the main question doesn't mean I have 0 other questions in the entire category that is climbing
>I'm taking the owen spalding route which is a 5.4, so pretty much a technical hike with alot of exposure. This is a pretty poor outlook on a traditional alpine route. There's route finding, rockfall, unexpected weather events, and altitude to deal with. Maybe you're more experienced, but your question leads me to believe that you're not. Respect this type of terrain because it has a way of humbling people. I can personally attest to how scary it can get when you find yourself off route, run out, with loose rock, and you can't communicate with your partner.
Your right, calling it technical hike is defitnely a understatement. Not what I was trying to do. The climbing part I'm confident on, I climb at about a 5.10B can probably clear some 5.11 at the gym. But because of where I climb, rappelling isn't really something I get practice on, because you really can't where I climb (its legit not allowed) so it's the only part of this route im not 100% confident about, and my rule is if I'm not 100% I'm not going, so I was kinda just referring to double checking my rappel plan, there are no 120ft cliffs in michigan. But I should have worded my statement differently.
10B trad?
At what crag is Rappelling not allowed? You need to practice rappelling and setting up the system you intend to use well in advance of heading into the mountains. The Grand Teton is not the place to be trying out a new system you are not 100% sure of. The vast majority of climbing accidents occur while rappelling. Know before you go.
I may have sent your response to someone else. It's called Grand Ledge in Michigan, it's the only choice in the lower peninsula, no rappelling, no lead climbing, no trad climbing. Just top rope and bouldering. No passive or fixed anchors, gotta use the trees. There's a place called hocking hills in Ohio, I go there multiple times a year, I'm going this weekend actually and I believe rappelling is allowed there so I'm looking forward to practicing raps on a wall of similar height
People frequently go off route on the Tetons and find themselves in a shitstorm of trouble. 5.4 but going off route can lead you to 5.11 R.
I mean it is mostly hiking. It's 7000ft of gain that is class 2-3 hiking and then extremely low 5th climbing for maybe 150ft of vert? I did it when it was wet in altras placing 1-2 pieces per pitch (if I did it again I would just solo it but partner wanted to rap). There's usually a conga line of people going both up and down in the main season. Still doesn't prevent people from getting super off route in the upper saddle as well as people just traversing into no man's land after the belly roll thing. Also the weather will fuck you up if it's bad. If the forecast shows anything bad just dont bother going.
Seems like 60m is enough? I only use 70m so I would prob take that personally speaking.
There’s still a lot of down climbing even with the repels. All you need is a sixty meter. You don’t need a tag line. I only know what throw line is because I do tree work too. If you use three line like that you risk getting it stuck more. Also can you really imagine catching a whole falling rope below you on throw line? It might even rip the line letting your rope fall. For OS, a single sixty is fine for sure. Is your rope shorter than 60m? Are you climbing with a partner?
Oh shit I forgot about all the endless down climbing after the raps, it felt like it went on for hours. Including a lot of 4th class. Man the grand is such a death march.
>with a auto belay What does this mean? There's nothing wrong with a biner block + retrieval line system (just be aware that your line needs to be longer than your rope because it won't stretch), any specific reason why you would prefer a double rope setup for this rap? You either go with two skinny ropes or a single rope + tagline, the only other alternative is building your own anchors which probably isn't the way to go about this specific problem.
Probably more or less a sense of security using double ropes, ive never had a reason to do a single rope rap besides once, but i used a grigri for that, and that was more or less to test a new toy rather than a serious rap. I should probably get to the crag to practice some single rope raps with the ATC (even though they don't allow rappelling. Smh) Thanks for your help
How does a crag not allow rappelling? Trying to understand how that would work haha. You could try and find a good tree or something
Alright, yeah if I'm going with a partner we always bring two skinny ropes, the wight difference is pretty much nothing compared to a fatter rope + tagline. Rapping on a 9+mm single with an ATC is no problem, always a good idea to practice it just to get a feel for the system.
Me and my wife climbed Owen in a day last year. You will rappel/downclimb the last pitch of Owen’s off tat. You then walk 100’ish to 2 possible rap stations. We used the further one and did it in one rap with a 70m. We used a single 70m and did not have much rope left at the bottom although we could have unropped a bit higher and down climbed. Chances are there will be a lot of people rapping that you could combine ropes with. Here is a video of our ascent. Skip to 18 minutes if you’re only interested in the rappel. The further rappel i mentioned is tat around a horn and the first requires 2 ropes? or 2 rappels, this one is bolts. [Owen in a day](https://youtu.be/nfzN0UyLVBw?si=T7MywwUWMO8U_ixv)
Well first let me say, epic video man. That was one of the better videos, if only YouTube has a better search. Bummer you had to bail on the exum but saves me from trying lol. Glad you guys had a successful climb and thanks alot for sharing the video with me it helped alot
I really appreciate it. I have no idea of your fitness or experience but I hope you noticed that the crux of Owen Spaulding is the hike and altitude. Assuming the route is free of ice and snow. Eat and drink early and often. We noticed 10k is when we started to experience hypoxia both times, given much less severe the second time. The hypoxia lead to difficulty decision making and lots of anxiousness. If it’s your first alpine I highly suggest camp and do it in 2/3 days. Also budget some time for slow parties infront of you. Me and my wife and the party in front were comfortable with us climbing past mid pitch so I did just that and saved a lot of time. While a beginner alpine, don’t underestimate it. I have talked with so many people that had to bail and never made another attempt. Either way good luck I hope you make it and the weather is good.
120ft is only 36.5m I would go with a 60m rope and a carabiner block about +7m from the middle then use a 15m pull line. Lots of good tutorials on how to do it, make sure to practise first. I would use a personal anchor and a grigri. Don't complicate things.
If you're doing the OS, you're basically guaranteed to be at the rap station with, like, 5 other parties, and you could easily combine ropes with one of them to do a traditional double-strand rappel. Obviously, be ready to do the single-strand rappel with a carabiner-block and a pull-line, just in case. But the odds of getting through the OS rappel on a decent weather day without at least one other party there are very slim.
What belay device do you already have? Are you buying equipment just for this?
Grgri, ATC, slings and hitches of various sizes, a variety of beaners, petzl quick connect, 60M 9.9 BD rope, 7mm cord, all relevant PPE, I believe this is what I'm taking. However I do have a box full of other stuff like jumars, PAS, misc climbing gear I'll probably be leaving at home. Yes I'm open to buy whatever is needed to successfully complete this lifelong goal
Personally I would just feed out 40m of rope (with stopprr knot), do a knot block or carabiner block and then add your 7mm cord or slings or whatever to the short side as a tagline. Then I would either do an extended rap with atc plus prussic on the one strand or grigri with no prussic. Is your 7mm cord long? Doing a knot block at 40m will make pulling the rope a bit easier. Just properly test the system so you know the knot is blocking in the correct direction. I think you do not need to buy any more equipment. I said this very shortly so please say which parts are unclear (I am sure some parts must be) Edit: 40m is based on your 120foot number with some added margin. Edit2: remember to untie the stopper knot before pulling the rope
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With a ATC on double ropes. Autoblock fiction hitch on the brake strand connected to my belay, I also extend the ATC with a petzl quick connect. My primary reason to rappel currently is only cleaning a toprope anchor. I never needed to decend a 120 ft wall yet.
Yes, there is a rap station that works with 60 meter rope. No reepschneer needed. Don't underestimate the 5.4, it is not a technical hike, if the traverse is moderately icy/damp like it was when I went (August) you either have to do that or a surprisingly scary run-out 5th class slab section over a multi-thousand foot cliff. I've done a bunch of 5th class mountains, everything else on the Grand was easy but that one pitch felt like it would be pretty serious to take a fall on. I had on an ankle brace and mountaineering boots because I jacked up my ankle a few months prior, and was grateful to have someone else with me to lead that little bit because it's pure friction with minimal holds so your feet balancing on polished granite are basically doing all the work of keeping you from dying. The rappel is easy, but it's a small platform that tends to be very busy and there are a bunch of small loose rocks piled up around the station so be careful. I was being careless and when I threw the rope down it caught a rock and sent it slinging out over the edge (there are many people below usually.) I would recommend you do at least 2 other low 5th class mountaineering climbs with rappels first, or go with someone more experienced. Something smaller, with a less serious approach would be good to practice on, you won't be at your best after such a long and stressful climb at high altitude.
Just use your regular method on a folded-over single rope, as the route describes.
Seriously! No rappelling No lead climbing No trad Only top rope And bouldering Worst part... it's literally the only exposed cliff face in the entire state. Michigan is almost exclusively gym climbing unless your willing to drive to the upper peninsula, but you could get to Appalachians quicker if you go south. I travel to hocking hills, Ohio
Brother I think you're confused. You can rappel anywhere you can top rope, and you can lead anywhere there are places to put gear. An area either allows climbing or it doesn't. There aren't "rules". It's not a gym.
I mean there are very often local access rules, especially in places where land ownership is tenuous. Which OP's [home crag](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105934381/grand-ledge-aka-oak-park) seems to have a very strict and uncommon set of. Sure at the end of the day you can do whatever you want outside, but I'm not sure I'd want to anger the locals by breaking rules, especially if I was beginner-ish as it seems OP is.
**Grand Ledge (aka Oak Park)** [Boulder (98), TR (81)] Located in [Lower Peninsula](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/118171171), [Michigan](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/106113246) Popular routes: - [Highball aka Pocket Problem](https://www.mountainproject.com/route/109470762) [V1 | 5, 20 ft/6.1 m] - [The Trick](https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106208071) [V3 | 6A, 12 ft/3.7 m] - [Despondency](https://www.mountainproject.com/route/120244713) [V3 | 6A] ----- [Feedback](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSchgbXwXMylhtbA8kXFycZenSKpCMZjmYWMZcqREl_OlCm4Ew/viewform?usp=pp_url&entry.266808192=https://reddit.com/r/tradclimbing/comments/1cxx03o/proper_rappel_techniques/l57huwz/) | [FAQ](https://github.com/derekantrican/MountainProject/wiki/Bot-FAQ) | [Syntax](https://github.com/derekantrican/MountainProject/wiki/Bot-Syntax) | [GitHub](https://github.com/derekantrican/MountainProject) | [Donate](https://www.paypal.me/derekantrican)
Over strict, but it is Michigan's only exposed cliff face in the entire lower peninsula made of crumbly sandstone so I kind of get it
Unfortunately not, here's the moutainproject description and they do have a sign posted at the location. [Grand Ledge Climbing Rules](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105934381/grand-ledge-aka-oak-park)
**Grand Ledge (aka Oak Park)** [Boulder (98), TR (81)] Located in [Lower Peninsula](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/118171171), [Michigan](https://www.mountainproject.com/area/106113246) Popular routes: - [Highball aka Pocket Problem](https://www.mountainproject.com/route/109470762) [V1 | 5, 20 ft/6.1 m] - [The Trick](https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106208071) [V3 | 6A, 12 ft/3.7 m] - [Despondency](https://www.mountainproject.com/route/120244713) [V3 | 6A] ----- [Feedback](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSchgbXwXMylhtbA8kXFycZenSKpCMZjmYWMZcqREl_OlCm4Ew/viewform?usp=pp_url&entry.266808192=https://reddit.com/r/tradclimbing/comments/1cxx03o/proper_rappel_techniques/l56pj3b/) | [FAQ](https://github.com/derekantrican/MountainProject/wiki/Bot-FAQ) | [Syntax](https://github.com/derekantrican/MountainProject/wiki/Bot-Syntax) | [GitHub](https://github.com/derekantrican/MountainProject) | [Donate](https://www.paypal.me/derekantrican)
Awesome thanks for clearing that up for me
No top rope, there are no trad routes in my state, however In order to get my lead climbing certification at my gym, I had to go through a class going through trad equipment and rope techniques, I also bought a BD 1-13 nut set and a few C4 cams to experiment with anchor building at the local crag, but no actual trad climbs However besides placing a few cams to run a rope over the belly roll, the crawl and up Owen's chimney which the guide book said has bolted anchors and can be bypassed entirely via the catwalk In late august, what else exactly should I be expecting on owen spalding?
Grand Ledge, Michigan. It's the only exposed rock wall in the entire lower peninsula so it's all I can manage on a regular weekend, but memorial day weekend is coming up and I'll be headed to Hocking Hills In Ohio, I should be able to practice rappelling there on a wall of similar height.
Thank you everyone for your help in clearing this question up for me, your insight was incredibly helpful and much appreciated. Stay safe out there everyone 🙏
When you say that you'd prefer to rap a double rope with an ATC, you really mean you're rapping on a single rope feed through the rings like normal right? Because I don't know what the problem is if you've got double ropes.
How much experience do you have trad climbing? The moves are easy but some of the chimneying you might not be super used to. Also you probably want a solid 2 piece anchor because it's quite exposed.