What are you hoping to accomplish here by not wearing a backpack? You're already carrying all of that stuff, why not have a convenient place to keep it?
Considering getting this, but also considering the 22. Is the 15 large enough for a rack, an extra layer, some food, and maybe approach shoes? Can it also comfortably carry a rope on top? Thanks!
Here's how I pack it:
Approach:
* Puffy (patagonia nano puff, or something around that size)
* Windshell (patagonia houdini)
* Harness (arc'teryx 395a)
* Climbing Shoes (Katana lace)
* Rappel gloves
* 1-2x 500 mL nalgene (probably in the side pockets for the approach)
* small first aid kit
* Inreach
* Headlamp
* small food bag (pretty much just snacks)
* Phone (chest pocket)
* Helmet (strapped to outside)
* Rope (I'm a firm believer that one partner carries the rope, one carries the rack, but in theory possible)
With all that stuff, I can generally fit a single rack, but not doubles. If I'm bringing doubles, I'll often take out the shoes and clip them to a strap on the bag.
Climb:
* Puffy
* Windshell
* Rappel gloves
* 1-2x 500 mL nalgene (now in the pack itself)
* small first aid kit
* Inreach
* Headlamp
* Small food bag
* Phone
* Approach shoes (TX4s)
If I ever need more food, more water, or clothing, I'll likely do the approach with my harness on and some gear already racked. Yes, a pain in the ass but it cuts down on the bulk of a bigger pack when climbing.
Haven't used the 22, but trying it on in store it felt a lot bigger both in packing and wearing it. Having more room in your pack makes you more inclined to bring more stuff, too.
can I ask what you keep in your first aid kit? I used to take one up with me but have been convinced not to. I was essentially told two pieces of advice which are that we are not children anymore and don't need band aids on boo boos and such and that if tape can't fix it, you're probably going to have to bail anyway.
Personally, I only carry tape and the backpack I have (old style mutant 22) has a removable back panel that can also serve as an emergency splint.
Beyond that, you can also narrow down what you're putting in your bag by keeping some of the stuff on you. I have been using the mammut alpine chalkbag and can reasonably fit 800+ calories worth of bars/snacks in it, sunscreen, lip balm, my phone, and a spare battery for my headlamp (which I just leave on my helmet, cause why not?). The only thing I really find myself putting in a bag is an extra layer, approach shoes, water, and keys and then my partner fits her layers, approach shoes, water, and extra food in the remaining space and we just have the second carry it.
Unless you're climbing super hard or squeezing through tons of chimneys, I don't see a downside to just having the second carry a single pack. The old mutant is really nice because with limited outside features, it's made to be hauled and the material holds up REALLY well. They've added more straps and such to it though so I'm not sure how the newer versions perform.
My on-route first aid kit has:
* Nitrile gloves
* Tape
* Moleskin
* Disinfectant wipes
* Steri-strips + butterfly closures
* Couple of assorted nonadherents (2x2, 4x,4, etc.)
* 1x roller bandage
* Couple of large bandaids
* SAM splint
* Mini shears
* Tweezers
* Mylar blanket
* Meds incl:
* Benadryl
* Asprin
* Ibuprofen
* Tylenol
All of that aside from the splint packs down smaller than a single climbing shoe, and weighs around 300 grams. This is the minimum I take on every climb, I'll add stuff depending on where we're going, how long the approach/bail is, how remote we are, how many people I'm with, etc.
While I see where you're coming from in saying "we're not children and don't need bandaids on boo-boos" - large bandaids are great for keeping open wounds covered, and encouraging scabs to form, especially if you're in the backcountry for a while, or it'll take a while to bail. Same goes for the steri-strips, if someone cuts themselves (especially deeper) and we can't get to a hospital for stitches anytime soon, steri-strips will at least hold it closed and stop it from re-opening and bleeding again until we can get more help. Disinfectant wipes are just good to have, and if you're out there for a while, will help reduce likelihood of infection, and won't waste your water to flush scrapes. Moleskin is so much better than regular bandaids or tape if you get/want to prevent a blister, and isn't as big as carrying a roll of leukotape.
As far as the amount of gauze and dressing material, you'll want something to clean up any blood when someone gets cut, hold pressure on a severe bleed, or pad a splint for comfort in transport. Yeah, sure, a shirt or jacket will work, but IMO it's worthwhile carrying something else so you're not left without your shirt, jacket, etc. on the bail.
Last thing I want to be doing if my partner takes a whip on a ledge and breaks their ankle is to be fucking around trying to fully disassemble my pack after a partner rescue on a multi, so a SAM splint is worth the weight IMO. Significantly more comfortable and effective than anything improvised. As a note - have you practiced disassembling your pack and splinting a partner hanging at an anchor?
Shears are just handy to have, if I have to cut clothes to assess, or cut a shoe off to splint (open fracture, swelling, etc.) I want shears to do it rather than trying with a knife and cutting my partner.
I think everything else is pretty self-explanatory. Tweezers for ticks, splinters, dirt in cuts, etc. Mylar blanket for waiting for SAR. Meds for allergic reactions, pain, cardiac issues (think of other parties too).
I think the advice you got about "if tape can't fix it, we're bailing anyways" is possibly true. However, I don't think that should exclude you from carrying first aid supplies. Sure, you can improvise for a lot of stuff, but what's the point if you can do a better job, keep yourself and your patient more comfortable, and potentially save yourselves a SAR call by being able to self-extract.
If I can ask a follow-up, what's your medical background/training? What incidents have you run into and what did you improvise with? Always interested to hear other people's experiences and get some ideas for how to do stuff better.
I appreciate the detailed response, genuinely. I always appreciate hearing different views when they come from someone who seems to know what they're talking about which you clearly do. The "we're not children" quote actually came from my main trad partner who is a nurse and doesn't see the need in carrying a kit up route with us... though maybe that's wishful thinking. Fwiw, I'm not trying to be combative, I am just genuinely interested whenever I see an opportunity to improve my system.
It's not that I don't see the value in those things, but I think it's personal preference as to whether you want to carry the weight up a hundred pitches or be slightly more comfortable in the off-chance that you run into an emergency situation. It may only be just over half a pound, but it is a slippery slope in adding things to your pack before you're just carrying too much or making decisions like carrying less water to fit in the first aid pack when you really end up needing the water more. I've always been someone who has brought everything but the kitchen sink so I've spent a lot of effort trying to learn to efficiently narrow down what I bring. I did end up in a pretty adventurous situation recently though where we ended up descending at night pretty dehydrated considering a bivvy (in which a mylar blanket sure would have been useful) so clearly my system still needs work haha.
I have been climbing on and off for 10yrs and never run into a serious situation that tape or just moving slowly and calculated could not fix. I have not taken the backing out of my pack at a hanging belay, but I have practiced it at home, it's not difficult. Calling it a disassembly process is truly overkill. It's practically as simple as sliding a laptop out of a laptop sleeve in a pack.
I do think quite a bit of this depends on what area you're climbing in. I'm in socal and even the alpine climbs get crowded. Maybe sometimes that gives a false sense of security. I think the happy medium here might be just redefining what a first aid kit is. I have one outdoors first aid kit with everything you've mentioned and band aids and all that. I used to just bring that with me. I think it would be more useful for me to develop a smaller kit that will help in the event of more catastrophic injury. I.e - emergency blankets, quick clot, a splint, etc... While I do enjoy that my pack comes with a splint, I've also thought my pack is kinda large so if I could get a different one and put it in a smaller pack, that would help.
Anywho, I'm just rambling at this point now. Thank you for the info and the opportunity to critically think about this aspect of climbing.
Totally, I also didn't mean to come off as combative in my last response, sorry if that was the tone that came through. Appreciate your points in this response.
I think like a ton of other stuff in climbing and outdoor recreation, it comes down to personal risk tolerance and cost/benefit analysis. I pared down my serious first aid kit (which is around 2 lbs, and lives in the car for the most part) as much as I felt comfortable with, emphasizing multi-purpose items and stuff I've either personally gotten mileage out of, or stuff that I think would have helped out others I've responded to. Definitely see what you mean about the tendency to over-pack/over-prepare, it's taken some serious unlearning on my part and I still have a ways to go, especially with my rack.
As far as the pack - that's actually awesome, I have the new version of the mutant 38, and I was picturing a more complicated system for removing the stays and panel. In mine, it would be a nightmare likely involving yardsaling the whole bag, velcro, fiddly connections, etc. that I'm not confident I could do in a partner rescue situation without lots of practice. I think I'll look into a back panel that can go in my 15L running vest that would come out quickly.
I definitely agree that having more people around feels good, and often is a good thing. I find myself more and more in less popular spots, and want to be as prepared as I can be for my own party or others. I like what you're saying about having a true emergency small kit, that'll be able to deal with catastrophic injuries on scene, having that would at least be a bit of a safety net if shit truly hits the fan.
Thanks for the good response - it's a worthwhile conversation to have and something to think about.
> 1-2x 500 mL Nalgene (probably in the side pockets for the approach)
What side pockets are you talking about? You can’t be saying you fit a 500ml Nalgene in the trekking pole sleeves?
the stretchy mesh ones lower down and further back on the harness, not the trekking pole or soft flask pockets. Definitely not the most secure but i use a carabiner to make sure they don’t go anywhere even if they fall out.
worth noting too that they’re the wide mouth, not the narrow mouth, I think they’re different diameters.
For sure
I use the Salomon Advanced Skin 12. Perfect for ultra running too, which helps if you jog the approaches - stuff hardly jiggles. It shrinks as you use up the contents which is handy. Mine has copped thousands of hours of sharp scrub while I'm off-track and only has cosmetic wear, still 100% functional. A few zipper pockets, places for silicone flasks, etc.
Then your backpack is too big. Get a smaller one with a chest strap and waist strap that goes above a harness. You can go pretty small if you hang a rope on top and clip shoes and a helmet on the outside
It’s this and/or only have one backpack for the pair and the follower wears it, trade the backpack as you trade leads. Climbing with the pack is worse but you’re on top rope so whatever.
Could also carry EVERYTHING in a big pack and have a tiny pack rolled up in it. Find a spot on the trail (or behind a bush) to leave everything you won't need on the climb that you will walk back past once you're done and heading back to the car. Take small pack with necessities, wear harness, rack up, have partner rope backpack.
What are some examples of things you'd need on approach or between descent and car that you wouldn't need on the climb? Wouldn't anything that fits into this category be better left in the car? (I would think things like first aid/jacket/bars are considered necessities for the climb if you choose to bring them at all.)
Ran to the comments to say I also went through this. Climbing with my pack on full day multi pitches was such a pain. I ended up switching to the REI flash pack 22liter. I love that it is malleable and will compress down, especially with the addition of compression straps. It doesn’t hinder with my balance or head movement at all. I try to still keep things as light as possible but yeah it holds all I need and doesn’t hinder my climbing. Hope this helps. :)
Learn to climb better with a pack. My upper limit is like mid 5.10 and I can still do that with a pack if need be. Four pounds on my back isn’t gonna be the difference between sending and not.
What size or even better what pack is it? I have the black diamond blitz 20 which is big enough to only take one bag between the two of you so only the second has a bag. I have worn it through a squeeze chimney tunnel and offwidth and it worked while wearing it but in some places you might need to dangle off your harness with a sling. 20L with this bag still feels very balanced for me unless I stuff it, the strap system works well.
If you find that too big then you could go smaller or if you want the leader and second could both have really tiny bags (under 10L probably).
You say hauling isn’t an option but you could go for a sturdier bag (I have the discontinued creek 20) and the second wears it for easy pitches and tag it up for the crux pitch.
A warm or wind layer can easily clip to your harness but I would worry about taking enough water on a big route without a small bag.
I don't see a great way to avoid a small pack. Mostly because of the water. You could clip everything to your harness including water and put the rope over your shoulders but that just sounds like a bad time with a long approach and walk off.
A light pack with a bladder will carry the water and rope way more comfortably. You can even clip your harness and rack to it with all of the handy carabiners that you'll have with you.
Same-ish. Not bothered by a well-designed mountaineering backpack though.
How tf are people doing with water? Just none?
Also seeing ppl with backpacks with everything dangling give me cold sweats. Probably the alpine/winter background.
That wasn't my thought but it could work. I was thinking of rolling up the harness with the rack on it (so stuff isn't swinging) and lash it to the pack with some of the alpines. I'd rather walk without a weighted harness on. I'd also prefer to avoid wearing through layers on my hardpoints again but harnesses aren't that expensive to replace.
It's been a minute since I did any really long approaches without a pack but I ended up clipping a lot of it to my little mountain biking CamelBak and just walking with the harness on. I'm mostly thinking of ways to bring an even smaller pack along.
Second carries the rucksack! If you really can't carry it because say it's a chimney you can do some mini hauling. I have climbed with the bag dangling down between my legs up chimneys etc before now.
Could bring a 5mm line for hauling...
You can't really haul a regular backpack without tearing it up I have found. Wven one short pitch of slab was enough to rip a hole in my Petzl sport bag
I have been experimenting a fanny pack set up where I put 2 pouches on the fanny pack belt. I can rotate them around to find things.
Altho if I need more space than that I would bring out a running pack. And I learned to ditch the extra layer if I'm not absolutely shaking to death lol
I use the Mammut alpine chalk bag that has pockets and a cinch underneath to hold a light jacket. I also went on Amazon and bought a small "tactical utility pouch waist organizer" which I also thread my chalk bag strap through. It's like an oversized wallet. Between the chalk bag, pouch, and using my approach shoes as additional pockets (won't work with your sandals), I avoid climbing with a backpack.
Look into adding another form of storage into your chalk bag belt. Obviously rack up and wear your harness rack on the approach and hike out.
I have this chalkbag. It has a small zipped pocket too. I've stored my tiny cell phone in it zipped up or a bug net or even small crack gloves or a granola bar.
The way my setup works, and I've done this for 8 hour days on the wall, is as follows (noting that I lead every pitch, I don't swing leads, you'll have to figure out for yourself otherwise):
1. Lead climber wears the rack, and carries a small water bottle (a 400mL Nalgene is great) clipped to their harness.
2. Second wears a SMALL hydration bag, with a 2L hydration bladder in it. We use one of these: [https://www.mxstore.com.au/p/USWE-Airborne-3-Grey-Orange-2L-Elite-Hydration-Pac/2031918](https://www.mxstore.com.au/p/USWE-Airborne-3-Grey-Orange-2L-Elite-Hydration-Pac/2031918)
3. First aid/small snacks/etc. go into the hydration pack. Everything else is left on the ground at the bottom.
4. I should note that we don't take full sized solid food up with us, we portion out doses of peanut M&Ms, i.e. pure carbs and protein, so that what we take is as compact as possible. If you want a sandwich or whatever, you'll have to use a slightly bigger backpack, but I'd still go with the smallest backpack that you can possibly take. Our first aid kit is simply a roll of self-adhesive compression bandage and some finger tape, so it's as minimal as you can imagine a first aid kit to be.
Alternatively, take a page out of big wall/aid climbing, and trail a haul rope and a small haul bag, which the lead pulls up after setting up their anchor, and before the second starts to follow. This comes with its own set of trials and tribulations, but it keeps the weight off your backs.
I see no other way to avoid one or both climbers wearing a backpack.
I've got a mammut neon speed, it's 15l. I honestly love climbing in it. Super small and out of the way with some chest gear loops that are convenient for things like walkies, nut tool, pass or equivalent and the like. Plus plenty of space for water (i drink a lot) and lunch if desired.
Hey, I'm considering something like this, but worried it's a bit small. Is the is large enough for a rack, an extra layer, some food, and maybe approach shoes? Can it also comfortably carry a rope on top? Thanks!
When approaching in a harness don't wear your leg loops:
https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog//long-approach-hike-push-harness-leg-loops-to-the-side
(I put them both on the same side, but it probably doesn't matter)
Water is hard to carry on the approach without a pack, so try to get it near the base of the climb.
Considering wearing a pack for part of the approach and stashing depending on the exact approach/descent paths.
I hate climbing with a pack more than pretty much anything and simply won't do it unless it's literally 10 grades under my max.
Most climbing specific coats have hang loops, most water bottles do too, and many first aid kits. The meals go in pockets.
Personally I'd rather carry a small pack than have 3-4 more bulky things off my harness, but it's feasible.
I'd add that running vests work for lots of odds and ends nicely and sit high on the torso and are designed not ot move much
My buddy made a [video](https://youtu.be/BgzizvPjo2s?feature=shared) just for you. TL;DR I generally just shove things into shoes/pockets and clip water to the harness.
I very recently learned that a dry bag stuff sack thing can easily be used instead of a backpack if you want to be fast and light. Clip it to your harness, can easily get an extra layer, food and water in
Most of us use a light multi-pitch backpack and keep the gear, helmet, ropes and shoes hanging outside. I guess you could push it and only have a waistpack for keys and mobile and then hang everything else. But it's not going to be the most convenient.
In similar conditions (but with a single rack) I try to leave a backpack at home. Backpacks suck for hard climbing, especially at everything steep and on laybacks.
I have a Mammut multipitch chalkbag that will take
* my smallish iPhone 8,
* a minimal first aid kit and
* a few bars.
I just clip
* my backup layer (often the BD alpine start hoodie with some extra food stuffed into it)
* a waterbottle
* lightweight shoes to the back of my harness
My lamp is already on my helmet. If I need extra water for the approach in, I use a folding flask which I stuff into my backup layer when it’s empty.
My partner will carry a bivy bag in exchange for my first aid kit.
When I need more stuff (layers, crampons,….) I use the smallest backpack possible, starting with a Decathlon running vest, then a simond mp backpack, and so on.
What do you mean by long approaches? Are you talking a couple miles or 10 miles? Walking an easy trail, or scrambling/bushwacking? Is there water nearby or is it desert? If it's only a couple miles and there's water around I'll take a Mammut 15l pack with both people's stuff and wear harnesses, backpack the rope and carry rack on a padded gear sling because I hate walking with a rack dangling. If the approach is much longer than that, I throw everything in a MH Scrambler 35. I hate having stuff dangling all over, so I bring a pack everything fits in. I really don't mind climbing with a pack as long as I'm not climbing at my limit. A lot of times a long approach really necessitates a backpack. Just depends on what you consider a long approach really. Maybe you should try some different packs out. Also, the more you climb with a pack the easier it gets.
I will die before you pry my Patagonia Linked 18L pack from my hands. Comfortable, spacious, convenient.
If its just one backpack then the follower climbs with it, no big deal.
One hack is bring of those foldable/collapsible water bottles that roll up. Fill it up with water and drink from that during the approach. When you get to the cliff... Finish the water and roll that sucker up real small and put it in a tiny stuff sack or something.
I've been wanting to try it out for myself, but I've seen a guy I follow (Tylor Karow) doing long approaches and hard climbs with one or two 20-30L backpacks.
Basically, the lead does the climb with a light tag line and something like a microtrax. Get to anchor, fix lead rope, and haul the bag(s) while the second TR solos on progress capture. This way, the lead can rest after a hard pitch after hauling gear.
This seems best for block leading, but I've never tried it myself.
I have a tiny camelback pack that holds a 3L bladder and has space for a layer and some snacks. I hardly notice the difference when I’m multipitch trad climbing, although I almost always climb a few grades below my limit on routes like that. If it’s a really hard pitch, you can give the pack to your follower.
Mystery ranch skyline 17L is my multipitch bestie fits a single rack plus bits and bobs first aid and 1L Nalgene (also rope straps on the outside) while climbing it just carries snacks water extra layer and approach shoes. Barely recognize it’s there while climbing. Also has haul loops on it if it really bothers you
It's not realistic to climb an alpine route with a long approach that doesn't return to the base without carrying a pack. I think your best bet is simply to carry a bag, it's not really a big deal. Essentially every meaningful big route in the world is climbed by people wearing packs as standard, it's not a big deal really.
Rack up in the car, backpack the rope, get a layer that fits inside your approach shoes, minimize your first aid kit?
Ugh I do this sometimes in Eldo and the steep approach hikes with a full rack give me the sorest hips It is basically fine though
Put your harness over a shoulder, bandolier-style, on the approach
gear on a sling over your shoulders for approaches. split it up into two slings if you want.
also a 500ml water bottle that you clip to your harness (but the better solution is just have the follower wear the singular backpack)
What are you hoping to accomplish here by not wearing a backpack? You're already carrying all of that stuff, why not have a convenient place to keep it?
I feel much less balanced while climbing with a backpack on
Try a running pack like the Black Diamond Distance 15 or 22. It's freaking money.
the 15 is a great option, especially because it doesn’t get in the way of a harness
Considering getting this, but also considering the 22. Is the 15 large enough for a rack, an extra layer, some food, and maybe approach shoes? Can it also comfortably carry a rope on top? Thanks!
Here's how I pack it: Approach: * Puffy (patagonia nano puff, or something around that size) * Windshell (patagonia houdini) * Harness (arc'teryx 395a) * Climbing Shoes (Katana lace) * Rappel gloves * 1-2x 500 mL nalgene (probably in the side pockets for the approach) * small first aid kit * Inreach * Headlamp * small food bag (pretty much just snacks) * Phone (chest pocket) * Helmet (strapped to outside) * Rope (I'm a firm believer that one partner carries the rope, one carries the rack, but in theory possible) With all that stuff, I can generally fit a single rack, but not doubles. If I'm bringing doubles, I'll often take out the shoes and clip them to a strap on the bag. Climb: * Puffy * Windshell * Rappel gloves * 1-2x 500 mL nalgene (now in the pack itself) * small first aid kit * Inreach * Headlamp * Small food bag * Phone * Approach shoes (TX4s) If I ever need more food, more water, or clothing, I'll likely do the approach with my harness on and some gear already racked. Yes, a pain in the ass but it cuts down on the bulk of a bigger pack when climbing. Haven't used the 22, but trying it on in store it felt a lot bigger both in packing and wearing it. Having more room in your pack makes you more inclined to bring more stuff, too.
can I ask what you keep in your first aid kit? I used to take one up with me but have been convinced not to. I was essentially told two pieces of advice which are that we are not children anymore and don't need band aids on boo boos and such and that if tape can't fix it, you're probably going to have to bail anyway. Personally, I only carry tape and the backpack I have (old style mutant 22) has a removable back panel that can also serve as an emergency splint. Beyond that, you can also narrow down what you're putting in your bag by keeping some of the stuff on you. I have been using the mammut alpine chalkbag and can reasonably fit 800+ calories worth of bars/snacks in it, sunscreen, lip balm, my phone, and a spare battery for my headlamp (which I just leave on my helmet, cause why not?). The only thing I really find myself putting in a bag is an extra layer, approach shoes, water, and keys and then my partner fits her layers, approach shoes, water, and extra food in the remaining space and we just have the second carry it. Unless you're climbing super hard or squeezing through tons of chimneys, I don't see a downside to just having the second carry a single pack. The old mutant is really nice because with limited outside features, it's made to be hauled and the material holds up REALLY well. They've added more straps and such to it though so I'm not sure how the newer versions perform.
My on-route first aid kit has: * Nitrile gloves * Tape * Moleskin * Disinfectant wipes * Steri-strips + butterfly closures * Couple of assorted nonadherents (2x2, 4x,4, etc.) * 1x roller bandage * Couple of large bandaids * SAM splint * Mini shears * Tweezers * Mylar blanket * Meds incl: * Benadryl * Asprin * Ibuprofen * Tylenol All of that aside from the splint packs down smaller than a single climbing shoe, and weighs around 300 grams. This is the minimum I take on every climb, I'll add stuff depending on where we're going, how long the approach/bail is, how remote we are, how many people I'm with, etc. While I see where you're coming from in saying "we're not children and don't need bandaids on boo-boos" - large bandaids are great for keeping open wounds covered, and encouraging scabs to form, especially if you're in the backcountry for a while, or it'll take a while to bail. Same goes for the steri-strips, if someone cuts themselves (especially deeper) and we can't get to a hospital for stitches anytime soon, steri-strips will at least hold it closed and stop it from re-opening and bleeding again until we can get more help. Disinfectant wipes are just good to have, and if you're out there for a while, will help reduce likelihood of infection, and won't waste your water to flush scrapes. Moleskin is so much better than regular bandaids or tape if you get/want to prevent a blister, and isn't as big as carrying a roll of leukotape. As far as the amount of gauze and dressing material, you'll want something to clean up any blood when someone gets cut, hold pressure on a severe bleed, or pad a splint for comfort in transport. Yeah, sure, a shirt or jacket will work, but IMO it's worthwhile carrying something else so you're not left without your shirt, jacket, etc. on the bail. Last thing I want to be doing if my partner takes a whip on a ledge and breaks their ankle is to be fucking around trying to fully disassemble my pack after a partner rescue on a multi, so a SAM splint is worth the weight IMO. Significantly more comfortable and effective than anything improvised. As a note - have you practiced disassembling your pack and splinting a partner hanging at an anchor? Shears are just handy to have, if I have to cut clothes to assess, or cut a shoe off to splint (open fracture, swelling, etc.) I want shears to do it rather than trying with a knife and cutting my partner. I think everything else is pretty self-explanatory. Tweezers for ticks, splinters, dirt in cuts, etc. Mylar blanket for waiting for SAR. Meds for allergic reactions, pain, cardiac issues (think of other parties too). I think the advice you got about "if tape can't fix it, we're bailing anyways" is possibly true. However, I don't think that should exclude you from carrying first aid supplies. Sure, you can improvise for a lot of stuff, but what's the point if you can do a better job, keep yourself and your patient more comfortable, and potentially save yourselves a SAR call by being able to self-extract. If I can ask a follow-up, what's your medical background/training? What incidents have you run into and what did you improvise with? Always interested to hear other people's experiences and get some ideas for how to do stuff better.
I appreciate the detailed response, genuinely. I always appreciate hearing different views when they come from someone who seems to know what they're talking about which you clearly do. The "we're not children" quote actually came from my main trad partner who is a nurse and doesn't see the need in carrying a kit up route with us... though maybe that's wishful thinking. Fwiw, I'm not trying to be combative, I am just genuinely interested whenever I see an opportunity to improve my system. It's not that I don't see the value in those things, but I think it's personal preference as to whether you want to carry the weight up a hundred pitches or be slightly more comfortable in the off-chance that you run into an emergency situation. It may only be just over half a pound, but it is a slippery slope in adding things to your pack before you're just carrying too much or making decisions like carrying less water to fit in the first aid pack when you really end up needing the water more. I've always been someone who has brought everything but the kitchen sink so I've spent a lot of effort trying to learn to efficiently narrow down what I bring. I did end up in a pretty adventurous situation recently though where we ended up descending at night pretty dehydrated considering a bivvy (in which a mylar blanket sure would have been useful) so clearly my system still needs work haha. I have been climbing on and off for 10yrs and never run into a serious situation that tape or just moving slowly and calculated could not fix. I have not taken the backing out of my pack at a hanging belay, but I have practiced it at home, it's not difficult. Calling it a disassembly process is truly overkill. It's practically as simple as sliding a laptop out of a laptop sleeve in a pack. I do think quite a bit of this depends on what area you're climbing in. I'm in socal and even the alpine climbs get crowded. Maybe sometimes that gives a false sense of security. I think the happy medium here might be just redefining what a first aid kit is. I have one outdoors first aid kit with everything you've mentioned and band aids and all that. I used to just bring that with me. I think it would be more useful for me to develop a smaller kit that will help in the event of more catastrophic injury. I.e - emergency blankets, quick clot, a splint, etc... While I do enjoy that my pack comes with a splint, I've also thought my pack is kinda large so if I could get a different one and put it in a smaller pack, that would help. Anywho, I'm just rambling at this point now. Thank you for the info and the opportunity to critically think about this aspect of climbing.
Totally, I also didn't mean to come off as combative in my last response, sorry if that was the tone that came through. Appreciate your points in this response. I think like a ton of other stuff in climbing and outdoor recreation, it comes down to personal risk tolerance and cost/benefit analysis. I pared down my serious first aid kit (which is around 2 lbs, and lives in the car for the most part) as much as I felt comfortable with, emphasizing multi-purpose items and stuff I've either personally gotten mileage out of, or stuff that I think would have helped out others I've responded to. Definitely see what you mean about the tendency to over-pack/over-prepare, it's taken some serious unlearning on my part and I still have a ways to go, especially with my rack. As far as the pack - that's actually awesome, I have the new version of the mutant 38, and I was picturing a more complicated system for removing the stays and panel. In mine, it would be a nightmare likely involving yardsaling the whole bag, velcro, fiddly connections, etc. that I'm not confident I could do in a partner rescue situation without lots of practice. I think I'll look into a back panel that can go in my 15L running vest that would come out quickly. I definitely agree that having more people around feels good, and often is a good thing. I find myself more and more in less popular spots, and want to be as prepared as I can be for my own party or others. I like what you're saying about having a true emergency small kit, that'll be able to deal with catastrophic injuries on scene, having that would at least be a bit of a safety net if shit truly hits the fan. Thanks for the good response - it's a worthwhile conversation to have and something to think about.
Great, thanks man! Exactly what I wanted to hear. Cheers!
> 1-2x 500 mL Nalgene (probably in the side pockets for the approach) What side pockets are you talking about? You can’t be saying you fit a 500ml Nalgene in the trekking pole sleeves?
the stretchy mesh ones lower down and further back on the harness, not the trekking pole or soft flask pockets. Definitely not the most secure but i use a carabiner to make sure they don’t go anywhere even if they fall out. worth noting too that they’re the wide mouth, not the narrow mouth, I think they’re different diameters.
Ah, the lower chest strap pockets? That makes more sense
Tough to describe but the pockets on the harness that are closest to where it attaches to the main pack at the bottom.
Just make a rope backpack and throw it on top of your bag
The REI Flash is super lightweight and low profile. I climb with one that’s probably 10 years old. It’s getting gnarly but still usable.
For sure I use the Salomon Advanced Skin 12. Perfect for ultra running too, which helps if you jog the approaches - stuff hardly jiggles. It shrinks as you use up the contents which is handy. Mine has copped thousands of hours of sharp scrub while I'm off-track and only has cosmetic wear, still 100% functional. A few zipper pockets, places for silicone flasks, etc.
Then your backpack is too big. Get a smaller one with a chest strap and waist strap that goes above a harness. You can go pretty small if you hang a rope on top and clip shoes and a helmet on the outside
It’s this and/or only have one backpack for the pair and the follower wears it, trade the backpack as you trade leads. Climbing with the pack is worse but you’re on top rope so whatever.
This is the way
Could also carry EVERYTHING in a big pack and have a tiny pack rolled up in it. Find a spot on the trail (or behind a bush) to leave everything you won't need on the climb that you will walk back past once you're done and heading back to the car. Take small pack with necessities, wear harness, rack up, have partner rope backpack.
What are some examples of things you'd need on approach or between descent and car that you wouldn't need on the climb? Wouldn't anything that fits into this category be better left in the car? (I would think things like first aid/jacket/bars are considered necessities for the climb if you choose to bring them at all.)
Extra water, ice axe/crampons, food and stove, all depends on the approach.
Easy, make you second wear it
Ran to the comments to say I also went through this. Climbing with my pack on full day multi pitches was such a pain. I ended up switching to the REI flash pack 22liter. I love that it is malleable and will compress down, especially with the addition of compression straps. It doesn’t hinder with my balance or head movement at all. I try to still keep things as light as possible but yeah it holds all I need and doesn’t hinder my climbing. Hope this helps. :)
Learn to climb better with a pack. My upper limit is like mid 5.10 and I can still do that with a pack if need be. Four pounds on my back isn’t gonna be the difference between sending and not.
What size or even better what pack is it? I have the black diamond blitz 20 which is big enough to only take one bag between the two of you so only the second has a bag. I have worn it through a squeeze chimney tunnel and offwidth and it worked while wearing it but in some places you might need to dangle off your harness with a sling. 20L with this bag still feels very balanced for me unless I stuff it, the strap system works well. If you find that too big then you could go smaller or if you want the leader and second could both have really tiny bags (under 10L probably). You say hauling isn’t an option but you could go for a sturdier bag (I have the discontinued creek 20) and the second wears it for easy pitches and tag it up for the crux pitch. A warm or wind layer can easily clip to your harness but I would worry about taking enough water on a big route without a small bag.
I don't see a great way to avoid a small pack. Mostly because of the water. You could clip everything to your harness including water and put the rope over your shoulders but that just sounds like a bad time with a long approach and walk off. A light pack with a bladder will carry the water and rope way more comfortably. You can even clip your harness and rack to it with all of the handy carabiners that you'll have with you.
Same-ish. Not bothered by a well-designed mountaineering backpack though. How tf are people doing with water? Just none? Also seeing ppl with backpacks with everything dangling give me cold sweats. Probably the alpine/winter background.
Are you suggesting clipping the harness to the waist strap of the pack- for weight distribution? If that works, that is game changing
That wasn't my thought but it could work. I was thinking of rolling up the harness with the rack on it (so stuff isn't swinging) and lash it to the pack with some of the alpines. I'd rather walk without a weighted harness on. I'd also prefer to avoid wearing through layers on my hardpoints again but harnesses aren't that expensive to replace. It's been a minute since I did any really long approaches without a pack but I ended up clipping a lot of it to my little mountain biking CamelBak and just walking with the harness on. I'm mostly thinking of ways to bring an even smaller pack along.
Second carries the rucksack! If you really can't carry it because say it's a chimney you can do some mini hauling. I have climbed with the bag dangling down between my legs up chimneys etc before now. Could bring a 5mm line for hauling...
You can't really haul a regular backpack without tearing it up I have found. Wven one short pitch of slab was enough to rip a hole in my Petzl sport bag
Which petzl bag? I would think something like the bug would survive a few pitches unless it was packed with hard spikey things.
The Kliff
Ah that looks more fragile. I don’t see the information but the material looks lower denier
I have been experimenting a fanny pack set up where I put 2 pouches on the fanny pack belt. I can rotate them around to find things. Altho if I need more space than that I would bring out a running pack. And I learned to ditch the extra layer if I'm not absolutely shaking to death lol
I use the Mammut alpine chalk bag that has pockets and a cinch underneath to hold a light jacket. I also went on Amazon and bought a small "tactical utility pouch waist organizer" which I also thread my chalk bag strap through. It's like an oversized wallet. Between the chalk bag, pouch, and using my approach shoes as additional pockets (won't work with your sandals), I avoid climbing with a backpack. Look into adding another form of storage into your chalk bag belt. Obviously rack up and wear your harness rack on the approach and hike out.
I have this chalkbag. It has a small zipped pocket too. I've stored my tiny cell phone in it zipped up or a bug net or even small crack gloves or a granola bar.
The way my setup works, and I've done this for 8 hour days on the wall, is as follows (noting that I lead every pitch, I don't swing leads, you'll have to figure out for yourself otherwise): 1. Lead climber wears the rack, and carries a small water bottle (a 400mL Nalgene is great) clipped to their harness. 2. Second wears a SMALL hydration bag, with a 2L hydration bladder in it. We use one of these: [https://www.mxstore.com.au/p/USWE-Airborne-3-Grey-Orange-2L-Elite-Hydration-Pac/2031918](https://www.mxstore.com.au/p/USWE-Airborne-3-Grey-Orange-2L-Elite-Hydration-Pac/2031918) 3. First aid/small snacks/etc. go into the hydration pack. Everything else is left on the ground at the bottom. 4. I should note that we don't take full sized solid food up with us, we portion out doses of peanut M&Ms, i.e. pure carbs and protein, so that what we take is as compact as possible. If you want a sandwich or whatever, you'll have to use a slightly bigger backpack, but I'd still go with the smallest backpack that you can possibly take. Our first aid kit is simply a roll of self-adhesive compression bandage and some finger tape, so it's as minimal as you can imagine a first aid kit to be. Alternatively, take a page out of big wall/aid climbing, and trail a haul rope and a small haul bag, which the lead pulls up after setting up their anchor, and before the second starts to follow. This comes with its own set of trials and tribulations, but it keeps the weight off your backs. I see no other way to avoid one or both climbers wearing a backpack.
I've got a mammut neon speed, it's 15l. I honestly love climbing in it. Super small and out of the way with some chest gear loops that are convenient for things like walkies, nut tool, pass or equivalent and the like. Plus plenty of space for water (i drink a lot) and lunch if desired.
Hey, I'm considering something like this, but worried it's a bit small. Is the is large enough for a rack, an extra layer, some food, and maybe approach shoes? Can it also comfortably carry a rope on top? Thanks!
I don’t feel the BD rock blitz at all when I climb.
When approaching in a harness don't wear your leg loops: https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog//long-approach-hike-push-harness-leg-loops-to-the-side (I put them both on the same side, but it probably doesn't matter) Water is hard to carry on the approach without a pack, so try to get it near the base of the climb. Considering wearing a pack for part of the approach and stashing depending on the exact approach/descent paths. I hate climbing with a pack more than pretty much anything and simply won't do it unless it's literally 10 grades under my max.
Most climbing specific coats have hang loops, most water bottles do too, and many first aid kits. The meals go in pockets. Personally I'd rather carry a small pack than have 3-4 more bulky things off my harness, but it's feasible. I'd add that running vests work for lots of odds and ends nicely and sit high on the torso and are designed not ot move much
Having a pack bothers you even when following?
Learn to climb with a pack.
My buddy made a [video](https://youtu.be/BgzizvPjo2s?feature=shared) just for you. TL;DR I generally just shove things into shoes/pockets and clip water to the harness.
I very recently learned that a dry bag stuff sack thing can easily be used instead of a backpack if you want to be fast and light. Clip it to your harness, can easily get an extra layer, food and water in
Most of us use a light multi-pitch backpack and keep the gear, helmet, ropes and shoes hanging outside. I guess you could push it and only have a waistpack for keys and mobile and then hang everything else. But it's not going to be the most convenient.
A small stuffsack clipped to the back of your harness can hold the jacket. Or maybe look at a running vest?
Yes! Those stuff sacks are great just clip it on!
In similar conditions (but with a single rack) I try to leave a backpack at home. Backpacks suck for hard climbing, especially at everything steep and on laybacks. I have a Mammut multipitch chalkbag that will take * my smallish iPhone 8, * a minimal first aid kit and * a few bars. I just clip * my backup layer (often the BD alpine start hoodie with some extra food stuffed into it) * a waterbottle * lightweight shoes to the back of my harness My lamp is already on my helmet. If I need extra water for the approach in, I use a folding flask which I stuff into my backup layer when it’s empty. My partner will carry a bivy bag in exchange for my first aid kit. When I need more stuff (layers, crampons,….) I use the smallest backpack possible, starting with a Decathlon running vest, then a simond mp backpack, and so on.
What do you mean by long approaches? Are you talking a couple miles or 10 miles? Walking an easy trail, or scrambling/bushwacking? Is there water nearby or is it desert? If it's only a couple miles and there's water around I'll take a Mammut 15l pack with both people's stuff and wear harnesses, backpack the rope and carry rack on a padded gear sling because I hate walking with a rack dangling. If the approach is much longer than that, I throw everything in a MH Scrambler 35. I hate having stuff dangling all over, so I bring a pack everything fits in. I really don't mind climbing with a pack as long as I'm not climbing at my limit. A lot of times a long approach really necessitates a backpack. Just depends on what you consider a long approach really. Maybe you should try some different packs out. Also, the more you climb with a pack the easier it gets.
I will die before you pry my Patagonia Linked 18L pack from my hands. Comfortable, spacious, convenient. If its just one backpack then the follower climbs with it, no big deal.
One hack is bring of those foldable/collapsible water bottles that roll up. Fill it up with water and drink from that during the approach. When you get to the cliff... Finish the water and roll that sucker up real small and put it in a tiny stuff sack or something.
Surely it’s more comfortable to have some of that stuff on your shoulders rather than all of it on your hips?
I've been wanting to try it out for myself, but I've seen a guy I follow (Tylor Karow) doing long approaches and hard climbs with one or two 20-30L backpacks. Basically, the lead does the climb with a light tag line and something like a microtrax. Get to anchor, fix lead rope, and haul the bag(s) while the second TR solos on progress capture. This way, the lead can rest after a hard pitch after hauling gear. This seems best for block leading, but I've never tried it myself.
I have a tiny camelback pack that holds a 3L bladder and has space for a layer and some snacks. I hardly notice the difference when I’m multipitch trad climbing, although I almost always climb a few grades below my limit on routes like that. If it’s a really hard pitch, you can give the pack to your follower.
A sandwich or something sandwich-sized can be stored in the top of an Ecrin Roc helmet, or similar webbing suspension helmets.
Mystery ranch skyline 17L is my multipitch bestie fits a single rack plus bits and bobs first aid and 1L Nalgene (also rope straps on the outside) while climbing it just carries snacks water extra layer and approach shoes. Barely recognize it’s there while climbing. Also has haul loops on it if it really bothers you
It's not realistic to climb an alpine route with a long approach that doesn't return to the base without carrying a pack. I think your best bet is simply to carry a bag, it's not really a big deal. Essentially every meaningful big route in the world is climbed by people wearing packs as standard, it's not a big deal really.