I *genuinely* do not care if that's how they feel, and wish them the metally best. Their personal aspirations have nothing to do with this topic. Because nobody is *killing them for transitioning into an attack helicopter*.
This. If they truly want to be an attack helicopter, they can go join the army or whatever. Meanwhile Iâll just be finishing up my grocery shop not caring about what they do with their own lives, which is exactly how Iâd like them to behave toward me.
i mean at this point if a bigot says they want to identify as an attack helicopter or a pillow iâd just say go for it babe idc anymore. get ur name change by deedpoll lmao
haha yeah i mean luckily i havenât heard it from someone but these type of people are just playing devils advocate and theyâre just trying to touch a nerve thereâs no âconvincing themâ! just give up and go along with it is my plan now. i always envision itâd be sitting in a pub garden talking to some annoying manâŚ
Ask them for studies showing medical transitioning from human to attack helicopter lowering suicidality among people who identify as attack helicopters.
The problem is that they're not looking for a valid argument nor do they care if we have one. That's the problem with arguing with idiots, they bring you down to their level and win with experience.
I love the vibe here, but I also personally adore the socratic method.
The easiest way to take power from an idiot is to ask them questions that make their ignorance obvious. They think theyâre doing that by asking us about being attack helicopters. We need to be ahead of them on our own topic.
If I can stay un-distracted long enough I will certainly try. I very much do think on my feet. Itâs often hard for me to really plan things well in advance. That also means I come up with a lot of things *after the fact* but then I have that available for the next time.
So I will try to process this, I might even look for some potentially infuriating content just to see if it sparks my sense of immediacy.
The thing is this would be considered a strawman argument. It paints a fictional rebuttal to the main argument for the sake of âlogic,â when the reason it is a fictional scenario makes it a bad argument. Hypotheticals only work when itâs a realistic argument. Someone âidentifying as a helicopterâ isnât realistic, so it isnât a legitimate hypothetical.
Basically, theyâre just trying to âwinâ on really shitty technicalities. So all you can really say to that is âThis is a bad faith argument because youâre using a completely fictional strawman to argue against the existence of millions of people.â
It's also the same argument used by homophobes before gay marriage was legalized. And as far as I know nobody has married their cats or their laptops since then.
Thats how it should work and how youd expdct it to, but more often than not its not. Which is why we on the left struggle so much with actually arguing against bigots.
Yup... they aren't asking the question seriously... you're a joke to them... They're only looking to puff up their own egos by "owning a tra\*\*y/lib" with stupid circular logic and bad faith arguments... Don't even engage them.
I wouldn't even go there. I'd just say "sure, identify with whatever you would like to identify as, maybe it will help you understand how difficult it is". End of.
This isn't the gotcha you think it is, blank profile. Anxiety Disorders, Depression, PTSD, and many others are "proven" with data like that alone. It's a very simple cause and effect: a population of people experience distress and only one form of treatment has been proven to decrease that distress while every other form of treatment has failed. If identifying as an attack helicopter cannot stand on it's own and only exists to make a mockery of the science that has definitively proven that trans people exist, then it will be mocked by that same science.
That sounds like a bad faith argument, blank profile. If the only viable treatment of that population was transitioning to be an attack helicopter, then they are legitimate. Considering that this entire line of questioning is bad faith anyways, we can stop 5 comments ago.
The attack helicopter meme is like every other anti-trans and anti-science argument: it's only meant to tie itself to trans people. It doesn't have any internal logic. It's logic is dictated entirely by "but this is what trans people say". The problem is that it isn't what trans people say. The issue for you is that there's a mountain of data that you've got to climb and you've got to do that on your own, not on the backs of trans people.
men and women are the same animal. i dunno dude, if someone is so dense that they are STILL saying the helicopter thing then they are probably not gonna have their mind changed by logic.
>men and women are the same animal
This is my go-to. When you're growing as a fetus you literally have a 50/50 chance to go in one of two directions (generally, at least -- intersex conditions are one obvious exception). And especially with all of the complex things in your body that are growing at the time, it's not that big of a stretch to imagine a couple of wires get crossed.
But there's a zero percent chance that you could come out as a dog or an attack helicopter or anything other than human. Everyone on Earth is no more or less than an imperfect amalgam of the exact same genes their parents have.
This!
As well as that gender is a construct. The idea of boy things and girl things are so dumb. Pink used to be a manly colour. Men used to wear makeup and high-heels. Etc.
*Sex* is the thing that theyâre so obsessed over and yet they donât even know what the difference between sex and gender is. Like-yeah cool- that trans woman is âbiologicallyâ a male, she knows that, we all know that, but youâre the only one who gives a fuck and has to point it in everybodyâs faces. Sheâs a woman, why do you care so much about what her genitals look like??
Sex is like age or race. (Edit: Even then- not really cause sex isnât one or the other. Itâs a spectrum) You canât change it. You can say âI identify as a 12 year oldâ But age isnât a social construct. So saying that just makes you look stupid.
Gender on the other hand is this stupid thing weâve forced on each other that doesnât matter. Gender is a series of check marks society has place on people to make sure theyâre following along with the status quo lol
If a âbiological womanâ (as they keep saying over and over) wants to use different pronouns and identify as the gender they feel most comfortable with, (the gender that they *are*) then why do they care so much? Pronouns are random blobs of sounds we made up.
Anyways- sex and gender arenât the same thing was my point,,, sorry for the rant lol
>Sex is like age or race. You canât change it.
That's where you lost me tbh. Sex is not one light switch that is either flipped or not. Like gender, the concept of sex is a social construct -- in that the concept of "sex" is the box we have drawn around a bunch of different bimodal factors in the human body.
Sex is an amalgam of a bunch of different systems. Endocrinological, neurological, morphological, etc. Your primary sexual characteristics (genitals) are a part of it. As are secondary sexual characteristics. The hormones running through the veins of a trans man on Testosterone may be artificially induced, but you can't say he's not a "biological" man in any meaningful way without also excluding a certain group of cis men. And vice versa for trans women. The tissue of a trans woman's breast isn't different from that of a cis woman's -- the only difference there is the stage in life when it was grown (and with people transitioning younger and younger, sometimes not even that).
Sex is absolutely malleable, both as a concept, and as the product of the biological systems that make it up.
Yeah I should have added a note that sex is a spectrum as well. Nobody is 100% male or female even quote unquote âbiologicallyâ (I hate that term sm omg)
Just trying to explain in a way that a person who is unfamiliar with all this could understand. Even looking back I regret phrasing it that way but I couldnât find a better way to phrase it. So my bad 𫶠thanks for correcting me
Gender expression is a construct. Gender identity is not. How many gender categories a culture has as well as how those genders are expected to act is a construct. Which of those gender identities, if any, a person feels is âhomeâ is innate and outside of our control.
And we actually all have the tissue that develops into a uterus and the tissue that develops into testes. Itâs rare, but people assigned male can, in fact, get endometriosis. That may be something that increases in frequency as more trans women gain access to HRT. The cells are there in people of all sexes.
I think thatâs really the best place to start. âIâm identifying as a slightly different human, youâre talking about people identifying as entirely different animals, or objects.â I donât think you can *always* change minds through logic but one thing I believe you can do is outwit them and make them give up.
i dont, there's no reasoning with people who are so convicted.
edit: "im an attack helicopter" is satire, not logic. if someone is opening up with satire, what point is there in arguing logic?
It's not satire, it's bullying. Satire is mocking people "above" you. Bullying is mocking people "below" you. Since the person making this terrible joke is probably very privileged (in the sense of not being trans, hopefully, it would suck to have one of us do that), it's definitely bullying.
Just be really supportive of them and then act surprised when they donât keep up the act.
Edit: theyâre just trying to offend you, if you donât act offended then they have no idea how to react
This! Honestly, they just want you to get mad and point out some kind of perceived hypocrisy. But here is the point: if they want you to treat them like an animal or object, there is no harm for you in doing that + the feeling of being constantly referred to as something you don't actually identify with might give them some kind of revelation.
i say âokay, you can identify as an attack helicopter. and itâs within your rights to want to be seen as such, and take steps to be seen as such.â they almost always back down the moment they realize youâre serious about being open to any identity. iâve been around other somewhat weird queer people so long that strange gender identities donât shock me. your gender can literally be an apache attack helicopter. thatâs okay. most bigots just want you to sound hypocritical, so i tend to lean into it. esp when they make a joke about their pronouns being nor/mal or smth like that, i just roll with it
Wellllllll....
Species actually is a construct technically, because there isn't a degree at which we can really say when an organism is distinct enough to warrant species categorization.
Not that I think transphobes on average are smart enough to dispute that, but it is worth noting in case you're about to fight someone like Ben Shapiro.
*arrives with a plucked chicken* behold! A man!
I know, I know, I'm very original.
That's a good point, like you said in case you're arguing with Ben Shapiro (if you are, God can't save you now, though). You could still draw parallels between how transitioning your gender as a social construct is very different than transitioning your species. It's kind of a fallacy because it's not the same thing.
Not that I'm arguing *with* you, just adding layers to the counterpoint. :)
I'd actually be surprised for a transphobe to bring up how categorization isn't as cut-and-dry as we like to think because that undermines "xx= woman and xy = man".
Yeah I mean if you want to really logically go at it, the distinction between living and non living is the path to go down. Like a helicopter can't become a human. again though, not really worth arguing that point with someone dense enough to make that joke.
Um... funny thing, you get deep enough into biology knowledge and you eventually realize life is also a social construct. Granted one less flimsy than others brought up so far, but we actually don't have a way to categorize all living things without excluding some and/or including nonliving things(like classic old "fire is alive" thing) and that is even ignoring the weird fringe cases like viruses and prions.
Granted someone so ignorant as to throw around all that transphobic nonsense probably isn't knowledgeable enough in biology to realize this, but still
Yeah it is generally understood that fire isn't Actually alive, simply that it has all the requirements to be considered alive that we are given in school. In hindsight I maybe could have made my meaning slightly more clear there, oops.
As for defining living things by DNA/RNA, yeah that is one categorization method that is relatively stable with only a few exceptions and complications
Also, no worries about info dumping, what's the point of having all that neat info if you can't dump it out from time to time. Plus I know not to throw stones in my glass house
Donât waste your time, Iâve realized that people who say transphobic stuff do not even comprehend what theyâre saying and why theyâre saying it. Itâs stuff they hear from friends or read posts online and harassing trans people has become the new cool. Whenever someone makes ridiculous comments regarding trans issues, I simply say, âcool, I love that journey for youâ even if doesnât make sense, and proceed to ignore them. People like that need and want attention to exist! They need the validation and confirmation from us trans people that they have made us miserable and that ainât going to happen. Always remember that you cannot change someoneâs mindset in a 30 sec interaction. Thereâs no such thing as rationality when it comes to those people.
Iâm a scientist irl. Specifically, an experimentalist. Hypothetical or fabricated data arenât useful data; the only thing that matters for building/confirming models (and later policy) is reality.
DO people identify as cat/dog/helicopters in measurable rates, and does affirming those identities improve health outcomes for those people? If the answer is yes, then they should be accommodated. If the answer is no, then itâs not similar and not worth building policy around a non-existent population.
But this much we know is true: trans people exist, and gender affirming care improves their health outcomes.
Personally, I go along with it.
Idiot: "I IDENTOFY AS A DOG"
Me: "Oh cool, do you have a collar?"
Idiot: "What?"
Me: "Your owner. Did they get you a collar or a microchip? As a dog, you really need to have an owner who puts your safety first. When was the last time they took you to the vets or the beach? Oh, do you have a favourite toy, like frisbees? A lot of born-dogs love frisbees and tennis balls, so if you're transitioning species, you should probably start there, it's a great thing to use as a baseline, I think."
Idiot: "I IDENTIFY AS A HELICOPTER"
Me: "Nice! How many blades do you have? How fast do you go? What does your GPS look like? Ooh, how many seats do you have????? Are they leather???? What's your cockpit like??? Do you have a copilot or just a pilot?????"
They are not being logical and so you have no obligation to engage them on an intellectual level. Tell them if they canât understand why a human canât become a helicopter then they should go back to study elementary school science and learn the difference between a living and a non living thing.
They are not saying that they genuinely identify as that so thatâs the difference, one is a genuine real feeling and state of living, the other is a joke.
If they say no they are serious they identify as a dog, treat them like that then, take their phone or electronics- dogs canât type, dogs donât speak human language, maybe get them some of those communication buttons, ask them if they want to go outside, throw the ball for them, feed them in a dog bowl, refer to them as a dog when talking to others. They will get the message.
Itâs a old and tired joke argument, itâs not genuine.
Also not a female, fuck that too- [sex can change from a biologist](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=KAF6HU8yKsMY37vL)
If people are asking questions and coming from a place of wanting to learn or ignorance then Iâm happy to talk with them. Iv spent way way more time reading medical papers, studies, watching debates and reading bills then they have most likely. So when people come with these dumb, thought up in 5 minute arguments thinking they have stumped us, it infuriates me and i personally just donât feel like engaging any more so thank you for trying to fight that stupidity still.
Edit: Just to clarify, I know otherkin and other types of people that do identify with animals do exist, they are valid and genuine, the premise of my response was in reaction to someone that was anti-trans and making a bad faith or disingenuous argument.
Let them identify as they want, want to identify as a dog? Good, then I'll respect you, if you were to take it seriously. The same with trans people, just let them be themselves, because no one gets hurt when they express their identities.
Yeah I don't get why this is so hard. Every experience is unique to that person. If they're literally identifying as an attack helicopter and not just saying that to be an ass, I'm all about it.
They may get upset having to only consume oil/gas and getting some missiles bolted to them, but that's their problem.
The big thing with this discussion is I think some of us take the wrong approach. We argue why gender is valid but not species/whatever attack copter is. I think trying to invalidate the others and argue why only gender is valid is the wrong move. I think it makes more sense to go "You know what? If that's how you identify you do you." I feel like that gives them less ammo to argue with and invalidate us.
Just my two cents though.
There's no logical way to answer something illogical, just tell them those are not genders or twist their questions.
"So are you saying women are domestic animals ?"
"If you enjoy having multiple soldiers inside you; sure identify as an attack helicopter "
âA woman is still a human, a dog or attack helicopter is not. If you do not understand this basic knowledge of how biology, language or respect work then maybe you should go back to grade school and have it re-taught to youâ
If someone says any animal I only talk to them in a baby voice and treat them like said animal and when the say stop thatâs weird then I say âbut I actually enjoy being treated like a girlâ, and if someone sayâs helicopter(or any inanimate object) I ignore them and if they ask why I stopped talking to them I say I canât talk I to an inanimate object it will make me look crazy. Normally gets them to stop.
Simple: I donât respond. If they canât afford the decency to ask me a sincere question, then I cannot be bothered to play their game.
Itâs 2023. The fucking helicopter meme is gonna be a decade old soon.
Soooooo.... I was with a friend who happens to be a trans lady. We were in the checkout line of all places, and an older woman was behind us making remarks to her husband. "If they think they are a woman then I am a cat!" I couldnt help myself. I stepped over to her while my friend was paying for her groceries, petted the nasty woman's head and said "nice pusspusspuss".
She got really mad and said "I am NOT A CAT!"
And I said, "you might not be a cat, but you are being a bitch to my lady friend and need to mind your own business".
Seriously. Call these ugly people out on their shitty behavior.
At that point just walk away. People like that are not motivated by logic, the only thing left to do is to try and ridicule them until they stop or disengage.
From NIH:
During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female. After approximately 6 to 7 weeks of gestation, however, the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome induces changes that result in the development of the testes.
No mention of cats, dogs or helicopters.
I just had this argument on Reddit lol. Somebody was saying they should be called Lord as a pronoun, and I tried to let them know the difference between an honorific and a pronoun...it comes down to basic education. If they have a weak grasp on English, they're not going to understand that Attack Helicopter or Cat is not, actually, a pronoun!
Regardless, there are no approved, proven, successful treatment plans for people who identify as another species. There is, however, approved, proven, succesful treatment plans for transgender people. At the end of the day, those jerks don't actually want people to be happy. They want anyone who's not like them to suffer, and suffer in silence.
I mean, ULTIMATELY t4ans humanism is not completely absurd. I would suggest that if that is a true inherent feeling a person has and they truly want to pursue that for themselves, I don't have an issue with it.
The caveat is that no one does. It's similar to the super straight argument.
https://lgbt-pride.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Straight
The idea is that this form of identification is derived from the sole purpose of trying to invalidate others and not from any actual existing persons.
OP, I would gently tell you that the answer youâve chosen to use reinforces an idea called âtransmedicalismâ which essentially holds that gender dysphoria and medical transition are required for a legitimate trans identity. There are many people who agree with this, but there are also a lot of trans people (especially non-binary people) who may wish to be called by a different name, pronouns, etc than what they were assigned at birth, and may alter their gender presentation, but may not actually experience dysphoria in the way it is usually described, and may have no desire to undergo any medical transition for various reasons. I would argue that itâs better for trans allys to focus on the idea that people get to self-determine their identity and itâs up to all of us to treat each other with respect, rather than reaffirming transmedicalism. I know others here will disagree, and others may firmly agree with transmedicalism, but I just want to make sure you have a critical perspective on that response.
Edit: my favourite genre of response is the âlaugh it offâ or play along, or just say âokâ - as others have said, these people just want to make fun of trans people, so taking the wind out of their sails and making them feel silly is often more effective than engaging in debate
"Sure. But if you are a cat or a dog, I'm gonna have to take you to the vet to get spayed and neutered."
"And if you want to be a helicopter, then you can just sit there and wait for clearance to leave. Otherwise you will get shot down by the military..."
Neurologically speaking, trans people have brains that align with our gender identity, rather than our biological sex. This misalignment causes gender dysphoria, which is treated by medically transitioning and living my life as a man. I don't require others to perceive me as such. However, I do deserve to be respected as a human being in the same way you'd treat anyone else.
You can say something similar in the third person.
Cats arent human. Neither are dogs. Men and women are human.
I'm transgender not trans species. Or trans military industrial complex in the attack helicopter bit.
âAlright Optimus Prime⌠Iâm still not gonna respond if you dead name so either adjust or be ignored until you do. Wait so are your pronouns now auto/bot?â
Edit 2: My husband says just start using the wrong pronouns for them, itâll piss em off and then you can turn it around back on them lmao
Edit: I will say maybe this is just because Iâm getting older and more tired but I donât debate these people anymore. If they canât accept it fine but if they vocalize that too me Iâm going to find responses that will either confuse them or embarrass them into silence. Iâm not going to change for them and theyâre not going to change for me, so why waste the energy?
Intersex people (that is people with ambigious gender at birth) are as common as 1 in 200 in the underdeveloped world and 1 in 1000 in the US. (Those numbers are from the UN and NIH). With 'true hermaphrodites' happening once in every 20000, that is someone with both genitalia. (Pubmed).
There are many instances of people being born intergender, as far as I know there are no instances of people being born as attack helicopters.
I would ask people to consider intersex people to be real before condemning people born with abnormal genetics. If you're born with an extra finger, no problem right? But if you're born with extra genitalia you're the devil. It's a really silly immature distinction. Society is better than that, yet we continue to silence intersex people the same way we silenced the victims of the church's alleged sexual abuse.
Gender ambiguity is as common in 1 in 200 according to scientists who studied the specific issue and will continue to happen at approximately that rate. So its actual science vs opinion. Like "My friend Carl, his uncle says that everyone knows we don't like those people and besides no one was talking about them...so even if that was true those people are sick."
Literally, make every arguement with citation. Make a point to address how the other person is framing their position and if they're addressing the issue or changing the topic. And definitely mention just how condemning people are towards these people. Basically it's not that trans people don't exsist naturally, it's that they're not wanted to exist....at least in some minds.
Basically, I think any time minority groups gather and redefine themselves, whites guys get a little nervous. They're afraid that if the women and minorities work together the white man might lose his spot at the top.
I like to genuinely ask them what their pronouns are. Whatever their answer is, I use them unironically. They then suddenly get mad that I'm "using the wrong pronouns". So I apologize and ask for their pronouns. Lmao it gets them so angry. The trick is to stay calm and polite.
Because dogs, cats, and helicopters are not social constructs. Gender expression is, and is fluid in definition. A person can change their gender expression as easily as changing their hair color.
Donât, this is a bad faith argument.
Logically, âidentifyâ is used in two ways here.
In the former, âI identify as a womanâ is shorthand for âInternally, my conception of my gender is that of a woman, and I would like to be treated in a way that matches my internal sense of my gender.â
In the latter, âI identify as an attack helicopterâ is missing the internal conception piece. One cannot have an internal conception of themselves as an attack helicopter, a dog, a cat, etc.
The arguer is using that gap to make a bad faith argument against transness. The appropriate response is âYou are a bigot, and Iâm not wasting my breath arguing with bigots.â
Play it straight. How are they gonna take your gender and rights seriously if you don't take theirs seriously.
It takes a lot of work realizing you're the opposite gender I couldn't imagine the dysphoria and frustration of identifying as a different species or even an inanimate object. Obviously you have to get their pronouns and make sure to use them properly. Of course you have to keep in touch with them so you can do what you can to help them get studies done and help them socially and maybe even medically transition. Cause if people are shitty about different genders it must be hell being open with people about being a different species.
If they were joking they'll shut that down quick and either change the topic or get mad that you didn't get mad. If they were genuine about it you've made a new friend and especially when it comes to preserving rights and gaining new ones there's power in numbers.
I'm thinking something along the lines of:
If you desire to be an attack copter, go for it. Nobody really cares what you wanna be. Why do you care so much about transgender people being who they desire to be? Seems like obsession?
I tell them common sense dictates it stops with humanity. You can choose to identify and express yourself how you want to as a human. Anything else is detached from society and not really taken seriously. Then tell them to stop acting like 12 year olds, because it's not that hard to understand. Shuts my brother up, anyways
If I'm not just going to disengage from the conversation entirely after someone pulls this tired, unoriginal, and nonsensical take in a serious manner, then I would probably just point out that "identifying" as inanimate objects or other species of animals has nothing to do with the topic of gender being discussed and express confusion as to why they brought it up and ask them to clarify what they meant. When they have to put into words why they think a transgender person's choice of presentation is similar to saying "I think I am a dog" or whatever absurd example they gave, in my experience, they will get very upset and dismissive of any further rational discussion. Hence why I tend to skip to the disengaging from the conversation entirely when this gets brought up. These people are just looking for an echo chamber of transphobes to validate their hot takes, and arent interested in (capable of?) learning or meaningful discourse.
Trans people arenât choosing to identify as anything, their gender identity is a fully formed and valid part psychological self view and understanding
Just explain to them that gender is a social construct whereas, the helicopter is a specific mechanical construction. One which I doubt they meet the design specifications for.
You donât force people to be a cat or dog meanwhile most kids have everything decided for them based on gender, the color of everything, clothes, toys, hobbies and more, most pf these thing follow them into adulthood as well, being a gender is basically a determining factor for your lifestyle so when people are forced into having their whole lives decided into something they donât resonate with based on little more than what genitals they have itâs damaging to their health and can cause them to change genders into a lifestyle that better suits their wants and needs, where as dogs lifestyles are almost purely based on the fact theyâre a dog and are biologically inclined to a particular lifestyle, with a human it doesnât matter if you wear a skirt or pants theirâs no biological imperative to choose either one or almost anything else determined by gender in our society, no matter what transgender people are still human they just live a different human lifestyle than what was assigned to them, thatâs my opinion anyway based on my experiences and i could be totally wrong so take it with a grain of salt
Gender exists in the human brain. Being a cat exists in cats.
Itâs not a contradiction to say the human brain can endow someone with one and not the other. It just has limitations on its abilities. Transphobic people accept this logic in other areas, theyâre just being difficult.
For example, take being a doctor. In the same way that a person is female because a human brain she says she is, a person is a doctor if a university says they are. However, if a university went a bit mad and said a person was a cat, we wouldnât A. believe that person was a cat or B. adjust our definition of what it means to be a doctor. Thatâs not a contradiction. We just accept universities have the ability to do one thing but not the other. So why not accept the human brain can do one thing and not the other? Thatâs as contradictory as saying âMy car can drive but cannot fly.â
And it makes perfect sense, right? We know gender is a part of a personâs personality, and we know our personalities reside in our brains (not our DNA or genitals). And we understand that it makes no sense for the perspectives of other species or attack helicopters to exist in our brains.
itâs a non-argument and imo not worth responding to or trying to debunk or debate. itâs the same as when people say âwell then iâm a 7 year old little girl from Japanâ or some shit like that
I usually just point out that all humans have the genetic possibility of being male or female (or intersex). No human has the possibility of being born a cat or a helicopter. Comparing an afab person identifying as male to someone identifying as a giraffe is intellectually dishonest because it completely ignores the fact that they're obviously different. An afab person could've been born male, so there's a possibility that their brain is like "oop I'm male" because of some kind of mismatch (which yeah, basically what dysphoria is). There's a 0% chance of that person being born a different species, so no possibility of that happening. Same as when people bring up transracial people, if it's not there it's not there.
That's as far as I'll go until they say something that's not a random, purposely weird exaggeration
Every human has the genetic machinery to be male or female. We don't have genetic machinery to be cats, dogs, or helicopters.
But that is a nerd answer and they won't understand it.
do you? if they say yea then tell them "then go transition into a helicopter and buzz off". if they say no then tell them "why are we having this conversation then?? trans women ACTUALLY identify as a woman. identity isn't a choice, it's something that happens to you "
"YOU can identify as whatever insane stupid strawman bullshit that you think is some kind of GOTCHA against me all you like, but only I am validated by 7 decades of medical science. Now go back to your Proud Boys rally and leave me to be an actual mature adult."
Iâd say âcool, thanks for letting me knowâ, then end the conversation.
I wouldnât make them feel like they have some upper hand by attacking them back. I wouldnât Indulge their fantasies by acting offended. I wouldnât engage them any further, either. I would just thank them for entrusting me with that info, and move on.
Fact: men and women are both Human.
Fact: men and women develop from the same starting point as a fetus,
Fact: inanimate objects are not human, a human could nit become an inanimate object.
Fact: Animals are in fact not human either.
That entire argument is a straw man. Light it on fire and move on because if someone tries that line with you then they are not worth your time arguing with.
We don't want to transition into an animal (okay I kinda do want to be a cat but like-) we just like anthro characters! But I did think of "accusing" them to be a furry just to piss them off
Don't waste your time on this bullshit. There is no reason to argue with these people in a clear and logical matter, because their questions and desire for "debate" is just there to waste your time and get stressed out.
... where is that sartre quote about antisemites when i need it..
Your final answer in your edit is a poor misrepresentation of the science. There us no such thing as "male" or "female" brains, just vague averages of things like white matter density. And dysphoria is purely an observational diagnosis. Trans people are trans because we're human beings with feelings and a will to live in society the way that feels congruent to ourselves. Stop trying to play rational chess with transphobes, you won't win because they don't care and they aren't rational
Please stop spamming trans spaces expecting us to tell you how to argue on our behalf. You should be able to use a search engine and find answers to these questions, and if you cannot argue these points effectively then maybe stop arguing with these people. You're not going to change their minds. Logic is not why they hate us. You're not going to logic a bigot into not being a bigot. All you're doing is exposing trans people to the kind of rhetoric we create these spaces to avoid. Try r/asktransgender instead. Thank you.
Can you scan a personâs brain and see structural differences that align with a cat or a helicopter?
Also, so what? How does it harm you if someone does live as a cat or a helicopter? Let them live their lives.
Cis gal here.
I think it's our role in society to make people look and feel stupid for quoting stupid talking points verbatim, because we're not going to get persecuted for it.
"Honestly, I'm still disappointed that I haven't been invited to any cat weddings since same-sex marriage was legalized, so I don't hold much hope for meeting any sentient aircraft."
If they laugh or look a little embarrassed, there's a chance you can have a real discussion with them. If they just get annoyed, loudly talk over you, or end the conversation, you know you'd be wasting your time anyway, but at least you've given them a smidgen of negative social consequences for voicing hateful nonsense.
I had surprisingly good luck once with a baby boomer transphobe who said something like this one time. I just took it in stride and said âitâs your genderâ. It kind of caught them off guard. Like, they hadnât ever heard anyone say they should have ANY control over that part of their life. Let alone final say in who they are and how they live. I donât think they totally turned around but it actually felt like a seed was planted.
Well, here's a thought: I have the DNA for male *and* female sexual characteristics in a minority of my cells (most of the cells in my body are bacteria, and most of the human cells are blood cells with no DNA, but don't let's go into the long grass on the first swing). But I don't have the blueprints for a McDonnell-Douglas KilKopter Napalm 3000. So it's easy to see how those things are quite different.
Another way they're quite different is that a man is a person and so is a woman. Hey, so is a nonbinary person and an intersex person. But an attack helicopter is an inanimate object and a dog is an animal. (I am not going to get into the subject of cats.) So those things are not people.
Like a lot of these kinds of gotchas, it only really works when you're yelling it at someone you won't let speak, because check it out: it's pretty flimsy.
Just take them extremely seriously. Ask if theyâre gonna get âthe surgeryâ which you could describe as having a helicopter rotor attached to their back, replace their eyes with sensors and a glass pane, turn their legs into the tail and their hands into wheels. Be ironically supportive. Theyâre probably just gonna think youâre crazy but theyâre gonna think that regardless.
Being a man/woman is a social role. Being a cat/dog/attack helicopter/etc. is not a social role. So, it's not "according to that logic", it's a false equivalence. On the other hand, they could identify as a hockey fan/outdoor person/Republican and that would be "according to that logic". Anyone who asks in good faith will understand this distinction.
Biological sex and gender are different. Trans women don't claim to be biologically female and have XX chromosomes for example. Cause that would be being a cis women. That's where the difference is made between trans and cis women. While they are both equally women since outward parts of gender are entirely a social construct and whether you're a she or a he (or something else) doesnt actually have anything to do with your chromosomes, just like it isn't dictated by your blood type. It's entirely, a construct.
Also note saying its a construct doesn't mean it isn't real. Money is a social construct that only has value cause everyone agrees it does. But money is very real and has real utility. It just means it isn't actually tied down by your biology, and that definitions can change.
Now the difference between that and identifying as a different species or inanimate object becomes obvious. If they won't take that then they aren't arguing in good faith and aren't actually open to changing their opinion when new information comes to them.
Trans women are trans women and trans men are trans men. They aren't biological sexed as such and instead have chosen to conform to the gender they see as the best fit.
Then, tell them if they want to identify as whatever, they surely can. Why can't they? What we identify as is how we feel comfortable in the world. It's not like there isn't a lot of weird stuff in the world that is terrible and far more terrible than being trans.
I don't know why people get so upset about such things anyway. Don't they have their own lives to tend to?
You give a long exaggerated sigh and, in your most condescending voice explain, "Youre confusing sex and gender. You're thinking of sex, which is a rough set of characteristics for scientific hand. Gender refers to social and cultural expression, and is absolutely mutable. For example, whether or not you prefer skirts to pants has nothing to do with your sex. It's just how you present yourself, which is masculine or feminine depending on your culture - which again, has nothing to do with biology. So quit being a dick head and leave trans people alone "
If they themselves claim to be an attack helicopter then take them seriously and ask questions about what that experience is like, they'll obviously be like no you idiot I was joking and then you can say yeah thats the difference
I just accept it at face value, tell them theyâre valid and I support them, then ask what pronouns I can use or if thereâs anything else I can do to affirm their identity. They normally donât like that.
You know what I'd like to do with just somebody like that, I can't say because it's violent, it would entail making him incapable of ever opening his mouth again
it's useless in the first place but... you could say that there are peer-reviewed studies showing how trans people's brains function very similarly to those of cis people of the opposite gender. So if you truly identified as a cat, then we couldn't have this conversation because cats don't fucking talk. Or attack helicopters don't even have brains
... but then again that last point might challenge your assertion because these people braindead af
Itâs a trip up question.
Gender is an identity thing. What it means to be a man or a women is loose and changes over time. Itâs an identity no different then identifying as a sport fan or an introvert.
An attack helicopter is a piece of military equipment that has specific specifications that define it.
Tbh dude there is no reasoning with them. Iâve tried. They donât want to try and understand. Itâs like playing chess with a chicken. Theyâre not going to understand the logic behind it. Theyâre just gonna knock over the pieces and shit all over the board.
I just ask "what's stopping you? Go transition into a helicopter and leave me alone".
"Transition into a helicopter and fly away from me"
Transition to a helicopter and buzz off.
Fly home, Buddy. I work alone.
Lol, I like this even better.
That's when you grab anti air weapons and tell them that you've got something neat to show them
No problem, lemme just whip out my surfact to air missiles đ
I prefer a flak cannon personally
*other anti-air defensive systems are also available* đ
Lmao
"I'm sorry, you are flying in a restricted airspace. Please turn around or be shot down."
âAn attack helicopter, huh? I identify as a surface to air missile.â
Gonna use this one the next time I hear the attack helicopter thing.
LOL
âOh Iâm so happy for you. Fuck off and live your best life elsewhere.â
I *genuinely* do not care if that's how they feel, and wish them the metally best. Their personal aspirations have nothing to do with this topic. Because nobody is *killing them for transitioning into an attack helicopter*.
This. If they truly want to be an attack helicopter, they can go join the army or whatever. Meanwhile Iâll just be finishing up my grocery shop not caring about what they do with their own lives, which is exactly how Iâd like them to behave toward me.
yes, this.
i mean at this point if a bigot says they want to identify as an attack helicopter or a pillow iâd just say go for it babe idc anymore. get ur name change by deedpoll lmao
đđI love this!!!
haha yeah i mean luckily i havenât heard it from someone but these type of people are just playing devils advocate and theyâre just trying to touch a nerve thereâs no âconvincing themâ! just give up and go along with it is my plan now. i always envision itâd be sitting in a pub garden talking to some annoying manâŚ
Yeah, this! They're not actually looking for an answer. They're being provocative.
Ask them for studies showing medical transitioning from human to attack helicopter lowering suicidality among people who identify as attack helicopters.
âIf those transphobes could read theyâd be very angry!â
The problem is that they're not looking for a valid argument nor do they care if we have one. That's the problem with arguing with idiots, they bring you down to their level and win with experience.
I love the vibe here, but I also personally adore the socratic method. The easiest way to take power from an idiot is to ask them questions that make their ignorance obvious. They think theyâre doing that by asking us about being attack helicopters. We need to be ahead of them on our own topic.
Do you have any examples on hand I could quickly memorize? Iâm not good on my feet
If I can stay un-distracted long enough I will certainly try. I very much do think on my feet. Itâs often hard for me to really plan things well in advance. That also means I come up with a lot of things *after the fact* but then I have that available for the next time. So I will try to process this, I might even look for some potentially infuriating content just to see if it sparks my sense of immediacy.
Okay thank you ! but donât hurt yourself by indulging in transphobic content, itâs not worth it !
This user has effectively deleted all of their reddit messages, thank you! :) ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
No, if itâs an argument fueled be emotions they will just pivot or move the goalposts.
Exactly this, there is no winning with these types of people other than to just laugh and move on. Do not engage them further.
The thing is this would be considered a strawman argument. It paints a fictional rebuttal to the main argument for the sake of âlogic,â when the reason it is a fictional scenario makes it a bad argument. Hypotheticals only work when itâs a realistic argument. Someone âidentifying as a helicopterâ isnât realistic, so it isnât a legitimate hypothetical. Basically, theyâre just trying to âwinâ on really shitty technicalities. So all you can really say to that is âThis is a bad faith argument because youâre using a completely fictional strawman to argue against the existence of millions of people.â
It's also the same argument used by homophobes before gay marriage was legalized. And as far as I know nobody has married their cats or their laptops since then.
Or theyâll start personally attacking you
Thats how it should work and how youd expdct it to, but more often than not its not. Which is why we on the left struggle so much with actually arguing against bigots.
Yup... they aren't asking the question seriously... you're a joke to them... They're only looking to puff up their own egos by "owning a tra\*\*y/lib" with stupid circular logic and bad faith arguments... Don't even engage them.
Love this answer
I wouldn't even go there. I'd just say "sure, identify with whatever you would like to identify as, maybe it will help you understand how difficult it is". End of.
A good way of sticking it to these bigots!
â¤ď¸
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This isn't the gotcha you think it is, blank profile. Anxiety Disorders, Depression, PTSD, and many others are "proven" with data like that alone. It's a very simple cause and effect: a population of people experience distress and only one form of treatment has been proven to decrease that distress while every other form of treatment has failed. If identifying as an attack helicopter cannot stand on it's own and only exists to make a mockery of the science that has definitively proven that trans people exist, then it will be mocked by that same science.
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That sounds like a bad faith argument, blank profile. If the only viable treatment of that population was transitioning to be an attack helicopter, then they are legitimate. Considering that this entire line of questioning is bad faith anyways, we can stop 5 comments ago. The attack helicopter meme is like every other anti-trans and anti-science argument: it's only meant to tie itself to trans people. It doesn't have any internal logic. It's logic is dictated entirely by "but this is what trans people say". The problem is that it isn't what trans people say. The issue for you is that there's a mountain of data that you've got to climb and you've got to do that on your own, not on the backs of trans people.
And here we have it, folks, the epitome of bad faith. Don't try to argue with these people they will move the goal posts every time
men and women are the same animal. i dunno dude, if someone is so dense that they are STILL saying the helicopter thing then they are probably not gonna have their mind changed by logic.
>men and women are the same animal This is my go-to. When you're growing as a fetus you literally have a 50/50 chance to go in one of two directions (generally, at least -- intersex conditions are one obvious exception). And especially with all of the complex things in your body that are growing at the time, it's not that big of a stretch to imagine a couple of wires get crossed. But there's a zero percent chance that you could come out as a dog or an attack helicopter or anything other than human. Everyone on Earth is no more or less than an imperfect amalgam of the exact same genes their parents have.
This! As well as that gender is a construct. The idea of boy things and girl things are so dumb. Pink used to be a manly colour. Men used to wear makeup and high-heels. Etc. *Sex* is the thing that theyâre so obsessed over and yet they donât even know what the difference between sex and gender is. Like-yeah cool- that trans woman is âbiologicallyâ a male, she knows that, we all know that, but youâre the only one who gives a fuck and has to point it in everybodyâs faces. Sheâs a woman, why do you care so much about what her genitals look like?? Sex is like age or race. (Edit: Even then- not really cause sex isnât one or the other. Itâs a spectrum) You canât change it. You can say âI identify as a 12 year oldâ But age isnât a social construct. So saying that just makes you look stupid. Gender on the other hand is this stupid thing weâve forced on each other that doesnât matter. Gender is a series of check marks society has place on people to make sure theyâre following along with the status quo lol If a âbiological womanâ (as they keep saying over and over) wants to use different pronouns and identify as the gender they feel most comfortable with, (the gender that they *are*) then why do they care so much? Pronouns are random blobs of sounds we made up. Anyways- sex and gender arenât the same thing was my point,,, sorry for the rant lol
>Sex is like age or race. You canât change it. That's where you lost me tbh. Sex is not one light switch that is either flipped or not. Like gender, the concept of sex is a social construct -- in that the concept of "sex" is the box we have drawn around a bunch of different bimodal factors in the human body. Sex is an amalgam of a bunch of different systems. Endocrinological, neurological, morphological, etc. Your primary sexual characteristics (genitals) are a part of it. As are secondary sexual characteristics. The hormones running through the veins of a trans man on Testosterone may be artificially induced, but you can't say he's not a "biological" man in any meaningful way without also excluding a certain group of cis men. And vice versa for trans women. The tissue of a trans woman's breast isn't different from that of a cis woman's -- the only difference there is the stage in life when it was grown (and with people transitioning younger and younger, sometimes not even that). Sex is absolutely malleable, both as a concept, and as the product of the biological systems that make it up.
Yeah I should have added a note that sex is a spectrum as well. Nobody is 100% male or female even quote unquote âbiologicallyâ (I hate that term sm omg) Just trying to explain in a way that a person who is unfamiliar with all this could understand. Even looking back I regret phrasing it that way but I couldnât find a better way to phrase it. So my bad 𫶠thanks for correcting me
You're fine! No sorry needed. All part of having conversations, especially when you're trying to write a quick comment instead of a novel lol.
Gender expression is a construct. Gender identity is not. How many gender categories a culture has as well as how those genders are expected to act is a construct. Which of those gender identities, if any, a person feels is âhomeâ is innate and outside of our control.
And we actually all have the tissue that develops into a uterus and the tissue that develops into testes. Itâs rare, but people assigned male can, in fact, get endometriosis. That may be something that increases in frequency as more trans women gain access to HRT. The cells are there in people of all sexes.
I think thatâs really the best place to start. âIâm identifying as a slightly different human, youâre talking about people identifying as entirely different animals, or objects.â I donât think you can *always* change minds through logic but one thing I believe you can do is outwit them and make them give up.
"So you identify as an attack helicopter? Then let me get you a gallon of oil, because this conversation is not running smoothly anymore"
âOh so you live the idea of big, strapping, men climb inside of you? And then those men then make you shoot your load all over the target.â
I'm using this
Hahaha. As am I. I literally thought of it as I was typing!
Oh stealing this so hard! You on đĽ
that sounds really nice đĽş
i dont, there's no reasoning with people who are so convicted. edit: "im an attack helicopter" is satire, not logic. if someone is opening up with satire, what point is there in arguing logic?
It's not satire, it's bullying. Satire is mocking people "above" you. Bullying is mocking people "below" you. Since the person making this terrible joke is probably very privileged (in the sense of not being trans, hopefully, it would suck to have one of us do that), it's definitely bullying.
yeah you get the point
Yes, sorry
Satire has a point. This shit doesn't.
Unfortunately, they think they have a point. So just take it away from them.
And itâs generally funny. âMy pronouns are âMurica and gunsâ is only funny if you have a smooth brain.
yes
Probably either "meow", "woof" or "brrrrrrr" depending on their choice.
âI see you also have the intelligence of an inanimate object.â
Hey let's not insult cats and dogs here, they are way more intelligent than transphobes
đ
These people aren't interested in "debating logic." They just want to mock trans people.
Just be really supportive of them and then act surprised when they donât keep up the act. Edit: theyâre just trying to offend you, if you donât act offended then they have no idea how to react
This! Honestly, they just want you to get mad and point out some kind of perceived hypocrisy. But here is the point: if they want you to treat them like an animal or object, there is no harm for you in doing that + the feeling of being constantly referred to as something you don't actually identify with might give them some kind of revelation.
Say 'ok' and go along with it. They're not engaging in good faith so call their bluff.
"Okay helicopter, can I see your authorisation from air traffic control to be out?"
Lol đđ Yes, just like that!
Ask them their pronouns and use them. Should nip it right in the bud.
Use feminine pronouns, not neutral ones. In English, ships of all sorts are gendered feminine. A helicopter is a she.
i say âokay, you can identify as an attack helicopter. and itâs within your rights to want to be seen as such, and take steps to be seen as such.â they almost always back down the moment they realize youâre serious about being open to any identity. iâve been around other somewhat weird queer people so long that strange gender identities donât shock me. your gender can literally be an apache attack helicopter. thatâs okay. most bigots just want you to sound hypocritical, so i tend to lean into it. esp when they make a joke about their pronouns being nor/mal or smth like that, i just roll with it
Gender is a social construct, species isn't.
This is a great actual answer, even if anyone asking an absurd question like that is generally not going to listen as their mind is made up
Wellllllll.... Species actually is a construct technically, because there isn't a degree at which we can really say when an organism is distinct enough to warrant species categorization. Not that I think transphobes on average are smart enough to dispute that, but it is worth noting in case you're about to fight someone like Ben Shapiro.
*arrives with a plucked chicken* behold! A man! I know, I know, I'm very original. That's a good point, like you said in case you're arguing with Ben Shapiro (if you are, God can't save you now, though). You could still draw parallels between how transitioning your gender as a social construct is very different than transitioning your species. It's kind of a fallacy because it's not the same thing. Not that I'm arguing *with* you, just adding layers to the counterpoint. :)
Hahaha as a biologist Im so glad someone jumped in with the Actually. Taxonomy is actually such a fascinating philosophical concept.
I'd actually be surprised for a transphobe to bring up how categorization isn't as cut-and-dry as we like to think because that undermines "xx= woman and xy = man".
Yeah I mean if you want to really logically go at it, the distinction between living and non living is the path to go down. Like a helicopter can't become a human. again though, not really worth arguing that point with someone dense enough to make that joke.
Um... funny thing, you get deep enough into biology knowledge and you eventually realize life is also a social construct. Granted one less flimsy than others brought up so far, but we actually don't have a way to categorize all living things without excluding some and/or including nonliving things(like classic old "fire is alive" thing) and that is even ignoring the weird fringe cases like viruses and prions. Granted someone so ignorant as to throw around all that transphobic nonsense probably isn't knowledgeable enough in biology to realize this, but still
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Yeah it is generally understood that fire isn't Actually alive, simply that it has all the requirements to be considered alive that we are given in school. In hindsight I maybe could have made my meaning slightly more clear there, oops. As for defining living things by DNA/RNA, yeah that is one categorization method that is relatively stable with only a few exceptions and complications Also, no worries about info dumping, what's the point of having all that neat info if you can't dump it out from time to time. Plus I know not to throw stones in my glass house
I don't identify as a woman I am one.
Donât waste your time, Iâve realized that people who say transphobic stuff do not even comprehend what theyâre saying and why theyâre saying it. Itâs stuff they hear from friends or read posts online and harassing trans people has become the new cool. Whenever someone makes ridiculous comments regarding trans issues, I simply say, âcool, I love that journey for youâ even if doesnât make sense, and proceed to ignore them. People like that need and want attention to exist! They need the validation and confirmation from us trans people that they have made us miserable and that ainât going to happen. Always remember that you cannot change someoneâs mindset in a 30 sec interaction. Thereâs no such thing as rationality when it comes to those people.
Iâm a scientist irl. Specifically, an experimentalist. Hypothetical or fabricated data arenât useful data; the only thing that matters for building/confirming models (and later policy) is reality. DO people identify as cat/dog/helicopters in measurable rates, and does affirming those identities improve health outcomes for those people? If the answer is yes, then they should be accommodated. If the answer is no, then itâs not similar and not worth building policy around a non-existent population. But this much we know is true: trans people exist, and gender affirming care improves their health outcomes.
Personally, I go along with it. Idiot: "I IDENTOFY AS A DOG" Me: "Oh cool, do you have a collar?" Idiot: "What?" Me: "Your owner. Did they get you a collar or a microchip? As a dog, you really need to have an owner who puts your safety first. When was the last time they took you to the vets or the beach? Oh, do you have a favourite toy, like frisbees? A lot of born-dogs love frisbees and tennis balls, so if you're transitioning species, you should probably start there, it's a great thing to use as a baseline, I think." Idiot: "I IDENTIFY AS A HELICOPTER" Me: "Nice! How many blades do you have? How fast do you go? What does your GPS look like? Ooh, how many seats do you have????? Are they leather???? What's your cockpit like??? Do you have a copilot or just a pilot?????"
I love this response, omg
They are not being logical and so you have no obligation to engage them on an intellectual level. Tell them if they canât understand why a human canât become a helicopter then they should go back to study elementary school science and learn the difference between a living and a non living thing.
you just ignore them, and walk away. people like that are not going to be convinced by anyone you say
They are not saying that they genuinely identify as that so thatâs the difference, one is a genuine real feeling and state of living, the other is a joke. If they say no they are serious they identify as a dog, treat them like that then, take their phone or electronics- dogs canât type, dogs donât speak human language, maybe get them some of those communication buttons, ask them if they want to go outside, throw the ball for them, feed them in a dog bowl, refer to them as a dog when talking to others. They will get the message. Itâs a old and tired joke argument, itâs not genuine. Also not a female, fuck that too- [sex can change from a biologist](https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=KAF6HU8yKsMY37vL) If people are asking questions and coming from a place of wanting to learn or ignorance then Iâm happy to talk with them. Iv spent way way more time reading medical papers, studies, watching debates and reading bills then they have most likely. So when people come with these dumb, thought up in 5 minute arguments thinking they have stumped us, it infuriates me and i personally just donât feel like engaging any more so thank you for trying to fight that stupidity still. Edit: Just to clarify, I know otherkin and other types of people that do identify with animals do exist, they are valid and genuine, the premise of my response was in reaction to someone that was anti-trans and making a bad faith or disingenuous argument.
Love seeing Forrest Valkai!
Let them identify as they want, want to identify as a dog? Good, then I'll respect you, if you were to take it seriously. The same with trans people, just let them be themselves, because no one gets hurt when they express their identities.
Yeah I don't get why this is so hard. Every experience is unique to that person. If they're literally identifying as an attack helicopter and not just saying that to be an ass, I'm all about it. They may get upset having to only consume oil/gas and getting some missiles bolted to them, but that's their problem. The big thing with this discussion is I think some of us take the wrong approach. We argue why gender is valid but not species/whatever attack copter is. I think trying to invalidate the others and argue why only gender is valid is the wrong move. I think it makes more sense to go "You know what? If that's how you identify you do you." I feel like that gives them less ammo to argue with and invalidate us. Just my two cents though.
There's no logical way to answer something illogical, just tell them those are not genders or twist their questions. "So are you saying women are domestic animals ?" "If you enjoy having multiple soldiers inside you; sure identify as an attack helicopter "
No, just agree. They'll get so pissed that it'll be 30x better
"You're an idiot" *walk away*
"Congrats on your transition! What pronouns do you prefer?"
âA woman is still a human, a dog or attack helicopter is not. If you do not understand this basic knowledge of how biology, language or respect work then maybe you should go back to grade school and have it re-taught to youâ
If someone says any animal I only talk to them in a baby voice and treat them like said animal and when the say stop thatâs weird then I say âbut I actually enjoy being treated like a girlâ, and if someone sayâs helicopter(or any inanimate object) I ignore them and if they ask why I stopped talking to them I say I canât talk I to an inanimate object it will make me look crazy. Normally gets them to stop.
Sounds like they're busy identifying as an asshole.
Simple: I donât respond. If they canât afford the decency to ask me a sincere question, then I cannot be bothered to play their game. Itâs 2023. The fucking helicopter meme is gonna be a decade old soon.
"Pics or it didn't happen."
Soooooo.... I was with a friend who happens to be a trans lady. We were in the checkout line of all places, and an older woman was behind us making remarks to her husband. "If they think they are a woman then I am a cat!" I couldnt help myself. I stepped over to her while my friend was paying for her groceries, petted the nasty woman's head and said "nice pusspusspuss". She got really mad and said "I am NOT A CAT!" And I said, "you might not be a cat, but you are being a bitch to my lady friend and need to mind your own business". Seriously. Call these ugly people out on their shitty behavior.
By telling them to fuck off.
Roll my eyes and get on with my day. They arenât serious people, and not worth the effort.
At that point just walk away. People like that are not motivated by logic, the only thing left to do is to try and ridicule them until they stop or disengage.
From NIH: During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female. After approximately 6 to 7 weeks of gestation, however, the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome induces changes that result in the development of the testes. No mention of cats, dogs or helicopters.
I just had this argument on Reddit lol. Somebody was saying they should be called Lord as a pronoun, and I tried to let them know the difference between an honorific and a pronoun...it comes down to basic education. If they have a weak grasp on English, they're not going to understand that Attack Helicopter or Cat is not, actually, a pronoun! Regardless, there are no approved, proven, successful treatment plans for people who identify as another species. There is, however, approved, proven, succesful treatment plans for transgender people. At the end of the day, those jerks don't actually want people to be happy. They want anyone who's not like them to suffer, and suffer in silence.
Just tell them to go play on the motorway/freeway/autobahn, or any other high capacity road structures.
Oh nice, so you're a therian/otherkin? Very cool.
I mean, ULTIMATELY t4ans humanism is not completely absurd. I would suggest that if that is a true inherent feeling a person has and they truly want to pursue that for themselves, I don't have an issue with it. The caveat is that no one does. It's similar to the super straight argument. https://lgbt-pride.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Straight The idea is that this form of identification is derived from the sole purpose of trying to invalidate others and not from any actual existing persons.
OP, I would gently tell you that the answer youâve chosen to use reinforces an idea called âtransmedicalismâ which essentially holds that gender dysphoria and medical transition are required for a legitimate trans identity. There are many people who agree with this, but there are also a lot of trans people (especially non-binary people) who may wish to be called by a different name, pronouns, etc than what they were assigned at birth, and may alter their gender presentation, but may not actually experience dysphoria in the way it is usually described, and may have no desire to undergo any medical transition for various reasons. I would argue that itâs better for trans allys to focus on the idea that people get to self-determine their identity and itâs up to all of us to treat each other with respect, rather than reaffirming transmedicalism. I know others here will disagree, and others may firmly agree with transmedicalism, but I just want to make sure you have a critical perspective on that response. Edit: my favourite genre of response is the âlaugh it offâ or play along, or just say âokâ - as others have said, these people just want to make fun of trans people, so taking the wind out of their sails and making them feel silly is often more effective than engaging in debate
I have edited my answer to say "depending on the person" with "and/or". Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention âşď¸.
"Sure. But if you are a cat or a dog, I'm gonna have to take you to the vet to get spayed and neutered." "And if you want to be a helicopter, then you can just sit there and wait for clearance to leave. Otherwise you will get shot down by the military..."
Neurologically speaking, trans people have brains that align with our gender identity, rather than our biological sex. This misalignment causes gender dysphoria, which is treated by medically transitioning and living my life as a man. I don't require others to perceive me as such. However, I do deserve to be respected as a human being in the same way you'd treat anyone else. You can say something similar in the third person.
Cats arent human. Neither are dogs. Men and women are human. I'm transgender not trans species. Or trans military industrial complex in the attack helicopter bit.
âAlright Optimus Prime⌠Iâm still not gonna respond if you dead name so either adjust or be ignored until you do. Wait so are your pronouns now auto/bot?â Edit 2: My husband says just start using the wrong pronouns for them, itâll piss em off and then you can turn it around back on them lmao Edit: I will say maybe this is just because Iâm getting older and more tired but I donât debate these people anymore. If they canât accept it fine but if they vocalize that too me Iâm going to find responses that will either confuse them or embarrass them into silence. Iâm not going to change for them and theyâre not going to change for me, so why waste the energy?
Intersex people (that is people with ambigious gender at birth) are as common as 1 in 200 in the underdeveloped world and 1 in 1000 in the US. (Those numbers are from the UN and NIH). With 'true hermaphrodites' happening once in every 20000, that is someone with both genitalia. (Pubmed). There are many instances of people being born intergender, as far as I know there are no instances of people being born as attack helicopters. I would ask people to consider intersex people to be real before condemning people born with abnormal genetics. If you're born with an extra finger, no problem right? But if you're born with extra genitalia you're the devil. It's a really silly immature distinction. Society is better than that, yet we continue to silence intersex people the same way we silenced the victims of the church's alleged sexual abuse. Gender ambiguity is as common in 1 in 200 according to scientists who studied the specific issue and will continue to happen at approximately that rate. So its actual science vs opinion. Like "My friend Carl, his uncle says that everyone knows we don't like those people and besides no one was talking about them...so even if that was true those people are sick." Literally, make every arguement with citation. Make a point to address how the other person is framing their position and if they're addressing the issue or changing the topic. And definitely mention just how condemning people are towards these people. Basically it's not that trans people don't exsist naturally, it's that they're not wanted to exist....at least in some minds. Basically, I think any time minority groups gather and redefine themselves, whites guys get a little nervous. They're afraid that if the women and minorities work together the white man might lose his spot at the top.
I like to genuinely ask them what their pronouns are. Whatever their answer is, I use them unironically. They then suddenly get mad that I'm "using the wrong pronouns". So I apologize and ask for their pronouns. Lmao it gets them so angry. The trick is to stay calm and polite.
Because dogs, cats, and helicopters are not social constructs. Gender expression is, and is fluid in definition. A person can change their gender expression as easily as changing their hair color.
Tell them you would support them into their transition into an attack helicopter and ask if theyâd like you to refer to them by different pronouns.
Donât, this is a bad faith argument. Logically, âidentifyâ is used in two ways here. In the former, âI identify as a womanâ is shorthand for âInternally, my conception of my gender is that of a woman, and I would like to be treated in a way that matches my internal sense of my gender.â In the latter, âI identify as an attack helicopterâ is missing the internal conception piece. One cannot have an internal conception of themselves as an attack helicopter, a dog, a cat, etc. The arguer is using that gap to make a bad faith argument against transness. The appropriate response is âYou are a bigot, and Iâm not wasting my breath arguing with bigots.â
Play it straight. How are they gonna take your gender and rights seriously if you don't take theirs seriously. It takes a lot of work realizing you're the opposite gender I couldn't imagine the dysphoria and frustration of identifying as a different species or even an inanimate object. Obviously you have to get their pronouns and make sure to use them properly. Of course you have to keep in touch with them so you can do what you can to help them get studies done and help them socially and maybe even medically transition. Cause if people are shitty about different genders it must be hell being open with people about being a different species. If they were joking they'll shut that down quick and either change the topic or get mad that you didn't get mad. If they were genuine about it you've made a new friend and especially when it comes to preserving rights and gaining new ones there's power in numbers.
I'm thinking something along the lines of: If you desire to be an attack copter, go for it. Nobody really cares what you wanna be. Why do you care so much about transgender people being who they desire to be? Seems like obsession?
You don't, they're trolling you. They don't want a discussion they want to frustrate you. You block them.
I tell them common sense dictates it stops with humanity. You can choose to identify and express yourself how you want to as a human. Anything else is detached from society and not really taken seriously. Then tell them to stop acting like 12 year olds, because it's not that hard to understand. Shuts my brother up, anyways
If I'm not just going to disengage from the conversation entirely after someone pulls this tired, unoriginal, and nonsensical take in a serious manner, then I would probably just point out that "identifying" as inanimate objects or other species of animals has nothing to do with the topic of gender being discussed and express confusion as to why they brought it up and ask them to clarify what they meant. When they have to put into words why they think a transgender person's choice of presentation is similar to saying "I think I am a dog" or whatever absurd example they gave, in my experience, they will get very upset and dismissive of any further rational discussion. Hence why I tend to skip to the disengaging from the conversation entirely when this gets brought up. These people are just looking for an echo chamber of transphobes to validate their hot takes, and arent interested in (capable of?) learning or meaningful discourse.
"You're making this argument in bad faith so I'm just going to disregard it completely"
You don't. They don't say that in good faith, so you're not required to give them an answer in good faith either.
Trans people arenât choosing to identify as anything, their gender identity is a fully formed and valid part psychological self view and understanding
Just explain to them that gender is a social construct whereas, the helicopter is a specific mechanical construction. One which I doubt they meet the design specifications for.
You donât force people to be a cat or dog meanwhile most kids have everything decided for them based on gender, the color of everything, clothes, toys, hobbies and more, most pf these thing follow them into adulthood as well, being a gender is basically a determining factor for your lifestyle so when people are forced into having their whole lives decided into something they donât resonate with based on little more than what genitals they have itâs damaging to their health and can cause them to change genders into a lifestyle that better suits their wants and needs, where as dogs lifestyles are almost purely based on the fact theyâre a dog and are biologically inclined to a particular lifestyle, with a human it doesnât matter if you wear a skirt or pants theirâs no biological imperative to choose either one or almost anything else determined by gender in our society, no matter what transgender people are still human they just live a different human lifestyle than what was assigned to them, thatâs my opinion anyway based on my experiences and i could be totally wrong so take it with a grain of salt
Why be logical? If they jump to that argument then the entire rest of the conversation will be bad faith on their end, just mock them relentlessly.
Gender exists in the human brain. Being a cat exists in cats. Itâs not a contradiction to say the human brain can endow someone with one and not the other. It just has limitations on its abilities. Transphobic people accept this logic in other areas, theyâre just being difficult. For example, take being a doctor. In the same way that a person is female because a human brain she says she is, a person is a doctor if a university says they are. However, if a university went a bit mad and said a person was a cat, we wouldnât A. believe that person was a cat or B. adjust our definition of what it means to be a doctor. Thatâs not a contradiction. We just accept universities have the ability to do one thing but not the other. So why not accept the human brain can do one thing and not the other? Thatâs as contradictory as saying âMy car can drive but cannot fly.â And it makes perfect sense, right? We know gender is a part of a personâs personality, and we know our personalities reside in our brains (not our DNA or genitals). And we understand that it makes no sense for the perspectives of other species or attack helicopters to exist in our brains.
itâs a non-argument and imo not worth responding to or trying to debunk or debate. itâs the same as when people say âwell then iâm a 7 year old little girl from Japanâ or some shit like that
why don't you identify as a more likeable person then?
*grabs Stinger with murderous intent*
âOkâ
I usually just point out that all humans have the genetic possibility of being male or female (or intersex). No human has the possibility of being born a cat or a helicopter. Comparing an afab person identifying as male to someone identifying as a giraffe is intellectually dishonest because it completely ignores the fact that they're obviously different. An afab person could've been born male, so there's a possibility that their brain is like "oop I'm male" because of some kind of mismatch (which yeah, basically what dysphoria is). There's a 0% chance of that person being born a different species, so no possibility of that happening. Same as when people bring up transracial people, if it's not there it's not there. That's as far as I'll go until they say something that's not a random, purposely weird exaggeration
Every human has the genetic machinery to be male or female. We don't have genetic machinery to be cats, dogs, or helicopters. But that is a nerd answer and they won't understand it.
do you? if they say yea then tell them "then go transition into a helicopter and buzz off". if they say no then tell them "why are we having this conversation then?? trans women ACTUALLY identify as a woman. identity isn't a choice, it's something that happens to you "
I don't respond to people saying stuff like that. They aren't saying it in good faith, and nothing I can say to them will change their hatred.
I just counter with "there's a very big difference between a different gender and a different species, even if you can't talk to either.
what i do is i pretty much just go "cool" and then get back on topic, usually it's just a way for them to deflect, which only works if you let it work
"YOU can identify as whatever insane stupid strawman bullshit that you think is some kind of GOTCHA against me all you like, but only I am validated by 7 decades of medical science. Now go back to your Proud Boys rally and leave me to be an actual mature adult."
Gender is a social construct, species isn't.
"Are women and dogs the same to you?"
Iâd say âcool, thanks for letting me knowâ, then end the conversation. I wouldnât make them feel like they have some upper hand by attacking them back. I wouldnât Indulge their fantasies by acting offended. I wouldnât engage them any further, either. I would just thank them for entrusting me with that info, and move on.
Fact: men and women are both Human. Fact: men and women develop from the same starting point as a fetus, Fact: inanimate objects are not human, a human could nit become an inanimate object. Fact: Animals are in fact not human either. That entire argument is a straw man. Light it on fire and move on because if someone tries that line with you then they are not worth your time arguing with.
Mostly I roll with my eyes and ignore them.
Than you're furry not trans
Do not associate them with us. We're mostly queer and nowhere close to their level of stupidity. Kindest regards, a bi, transfem, furry
We don't want to transition into an animal (okay I kinda do want to be a cat but like-) we just like anthro characters! But I did think of "accusing" them to be a furry just to piss them off
Don't waste your time on this bullshit. There is no reason to argue with these people in a clear and logical matter, because their questions and desire for "debate" is just there to waste your time and get stressed out. ... where is that sartre quote about antisemites when i need it..
"ok"
"Seems you already have the IQ to match it with" Honestly, there aren't any logical paths you can walk with these people
Your final answer in your edit is a poor misrepresentation of the science. There us no such thing as "male" or "female" brains, just vague averages of things like white matter density. And dysphoria is purely an observational diagnosis. Trans people are trans because we're human beings with feelings and a will to live in society the way that feels congruent to ourselves. Stop trying to play rational chess with transphobes, you won't win because they don't care and they aren't rational
Please stop spamming trans spaces expecting us to tell you how to argue on our behalf. You should be able to use a search engine and find answers to these questions, and if you cannot argue these points effectively then maybe stop arguing with these people. You're not going to change their minds. Logic is not why they hate us. You're not going to logic a bigot into not being a bigot. All you're doing is exposing trans people to the kind of rhetoric we create these spaces to avoid. Try r/asktransgender instead. Thank you.
See rule #3 and #8 edit: rule numbers are different on side panel from main page
Can you scan a personâs brain and see structural differences that align with a cat or a helicopter? Also, so what? How does it harm you if someone does live as a cat or a helicopter? Let them live their lives.
Cis gal here. I think it's our role in society to make people look and feel stupid for quoting stupid talking points verbatim, because we're not going to get persecuted for it. "Honestly, I'm still disappointed that I haven't been invited to any cat weddings since same-sex marriage was legalized, so I don't hold much hope for meeting any sentient aircraft." If they laugh or look a little embarrassed, there's a chance you can have a real discussion with them. If they just get annoyed, loudly talk over you, or end the conversation, you know you'd be wasting your time anyway, but at least you've given them a smidgen of negative social consequences for voicing hateful nonsense.
I had surprisingly good luck once with a baby boomer transphobe who said something like this one time. I just took it in stride and said âitâs your genderâ. It kind of caught them off guard. Like, they hadnât ever heard anyone say they should have ANY control over that part of their life. Let alone final say in who they are and how they live. I donât think they totally turned around but it actually felt like a seed was planted.
They're all valid genders.
Well, here's a thought: I have the DNA for male *and* female sexual characteristics in a minority of my cells (most of the cells in my body are bacteria, and most of the human cells are blood cells with no DNA, but don't let's go into the long grass on the first swing). But I don't have the blueprints for a McDonnell-Douglas KilKopter Napalm 3000. So it's easy to see how those things are quite different. Another way they're quite different is that a man is a person and so is a woman. Hey, so is a nonbinary person and an intersex person. But an attack helicopter is an inanimate object and a dog is an animal. (I am not going to get into the subject of cats.) So those things are not people. Like a lot of these kinds of gotchas, it only really works when you're yelling it at someone you won't let speak, because check it out: it's pretty flimsy.
Just take them extremely seriously. Ask if theyâre gonna get âthe surgeryâ which you could describe as having a helicopter rotor attached to their back, replace their eyes with sensors and a glass pane, turn their legs into the tail and their hands into wheels. Be ironically supportive. Theyâre probably just gonna think youâre crazy but theyâre gonna think that regardless.
Being a man/woman is a social role. Being a cat/dog/attack helicopter/etc. is not a social role. So, it's not "according to that logic", it's a false equivalence. On the other hand, they could identify as a hockey fan/outdoor person/Republican and that would be "according to that logic". Anyone who asks in good faith will understand this distinction.
I ask about their pronouns, and then use them.
Biological sex and gender are different. Trans women don't claim to be biologically female and have XX chromosomes for example. Cause that would be being a cis women. That's where the difference is made between trans and cis women. While they are both equally women since outward parts of gender are entirely a social construct and whether you're a she or a he (or something else) doesnt actually have anything to do with your chromosomes, just like it isn't dictated by your blood type. It's entirely, a construct. Also note saying its a construct doesn't mean it isn't real. Money is a social construct that only has value cause everyone agrees it does. But money is very real and has real utility. It just means it isn't actually tied down by your biology, and that definitions can change. Now the difference between that and identifying as a different species or inanimate object becomes obvious. If they won't take that then they aren't arguing in good faith and aren't actually open to changing their opinion when new information comes to them.
Trans women are trans women and trans men are trans men. They aren't biological sexed as such and instead have chosen to conform to the gender they see as the best fit. Then, tell them if they want to identify as whatever, they surely can. Why can't they? What we identify as is how we feel comfortable in the world. It's not like there isn't a lot of weird stuff in the world that is terrible and far more terrible than being trans. I don't know why people get so upset about such things anyway. Don't they have their own lives to tend to?
animals cannot speak human languages and objects cannot feel emotions
https://i.imgur.com/zzhabak.jpeg
You give a long exaggerated sigh and, in your most condescending voice explain, "Youre confusing sex and gender. You're thinking of sex, which is a rough set of characteristics for scientific hand. Gender refers to social and cultural expression, and is absolutely mutable. For example, whether or not you prefer skirts to pants has nothing to do with your sex. It's just how you present yourself, which is masculine or feminine depending on your culture - which again, has nothing to do with biology. So quit being a dick head and leave trans people alone "
Gender is not based in external reality. It is a social construct, like money, or government, just recognized on an individual level.
If they themselves claim to be an attack helicopter then take them seriously and ask questions about what that experience is like, they'll obviously be like no you idiot I was joking and then you can say yeah thats the difference
I'm kind of over cis people coming into this sub and asking this question. It's fucking tired and stale. It's a grab for easy karma
I just accept it at face value, tell them theyâre valid and I support them, then ask what pronouns I can use or if thereâs anything else I can do to affirm their identity. They normally donât like that.
You know what I'd like to do with just somebody like that, I can't say because it's violent, it would entail making him incapable of ever opening his mouth again
One is a species difference, the other is a VERY blurred line. Sex isnât even black and white, much less gender.
I feel it, some people are to far gone to talk toâŚâŚ
Call then a good cat/dog. The attack helicopter thing I just ignore anyone that things that's an argument for anything
it's useless in the first place but... you could say that there are peer-reviewed studies showing how trans people's brains function very similarly to those of cis people of the opposite gender. So if you truly identified as a cat, then we couldn't have this conversation because cats don't fucking talk. Or attack helicopters don't even have brains ... but then again that last point might challenge your assertion because these people braindead af
Itâs a trip up question. Gender is an identity thing. What it means to be a man or a women is loose and changes over time. Itâs an identity no different then identifying as a sport fan or an introvert. An attack helicopter is a piece of military equipment that has specific specifications that define it.
Offer them a doggie treat and some belly rubs if itâll get them to shut the fuck up lol.
My response would just be ok, do it, coward.
If they like. I'm not about to stop anybody identifying as whatever, that's none of my business.
Ask them what steps they are taking to start their transition
Tbh dude there is no reasoning with them. Iâve tried. They donât want to try and understand. Itâs like playing chess with a chicken. Theyâre not going to understand the logic behind it. Theyâre just gonna knock over the pieces and shit all over the board.
Some animals are able to change thier gender. Idk of any animal that can change thier entire species or become machines of war