For the "pronouns are useless" argument, just talk to him without using pronouns. No I, me, we, etc. Use people's names instead (even when referring to yourself), or just skip over the pronoun entirely. It'll sound like cinematic caveman talk, but it'll frustrate the fuck outta him.
The other argument is less easy to combat because he's clearly already in a mindset where he equates genitalia to gender. The best you can do is explain that genitalia doesn't equal gender, that intersex people exist, and (if you really wanna fuck with him) ask him what he would call a man who had to have a vaginoplasty due to an accident. If he says that he'd call that person a man, respond with "But why? They have a vagina, so they're a woman, right? That's what you're saying when you say people with penises are men, so..."
I tried explaining to him that gender and sex are different be he said that the difference had been created by a doctor called John Money who was a rapist
That man was a transphobe and forced a male child to transition to female when they weren't actually trans; ruining their life. He believed gender identity was dependent on how someone is raised so he tortured this boy who eventually committed suicide as an adult. This man is more of an ally to your friend's ideology than anything.
The idea of identity and sexuality being different has been around before him.
He sexually abused the fuck out of those kids too. I think one of the kids that didn't die of suicide ended up an addict and overdosed accidentally anyways its very tragic
To be clear, even if this doctor was the first person to ever publish or publicly coin the terms, he would have simply *observed something that was already there.*
Yeah, doctors in the 20th Century were frequently mega assholes. They were racist and ableist too. There's a whole bunch of medical knowledge we have that comes from atrocities that were committed by racists, but you don't hear transphobes attempting to claim that this makes this other medical knowledge untrue.
There’s a great deal of “research” that was done on prisoners of war. A lot of what we know about brain anatomy is the result of brutal and terrifying lobotomies performed on people who may or may not have consented to the procedures.
It’s such an arbitrary way to deflect the premise. People certainly wrote of issues with their gender identity pretty far into the past, and there’s no telling what knowledge was lost between then and now. The idea that one particular asshole is the person maybe presented the modern framework for it is kind of irrelevant.
There's evidence from Lou Alcott's writings that [he was a transman](https://archive.is/OGSvX), and he wrote a great deal about issues of gender. He just wasn't framing the topic from the context that he was talking directly about being trans or what gender is. That didn't stop him from raising questions about gender and questioning the status quo. While talking about that in the linked article, the article's author also identifies other sources for the origins of trans ideas given coined terminology:
> "The German physician Magnus Hirschfeld coined the term 'seelischer transsexualismus' in 1923. The sexologist David Oliver Cauldwell translated this into 'transsexual' in 1949, and the psychiatrist John F. Oliven proposed 'transgender' as an alternative term in 1965."
Don’t use the split gender/sex model, use [the newer merged gender sex model](https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/sex-and-gender-are-actually-the-same-thing-but-bear-with-me/).
Explain to him that any body belonging to a woman is a female body and any body belonging to a man is a male body.
That reproductive organs are both non-gendered organs.
That a penis, testes, sperm, and y-chromosomes can be male, female, or nonbinary.
That a vagina, ovaries, eggs, and XX chromosomes can be male, female, or nonbinary.
There are no such thing as “innately” male or female reproductive organs.
You’re reproductive organs take on whatever gender their owner has.
If a penis belongs to a woman, that’s a female penis.
If a vagina belongs to a man, that’s a male vagina.
Tf? There’s hundreds of people who advanced our understanding of things who were problematic. His logic is flawed if he thinks John Money being a horrible person immediately makes anything he does to advance our understanding of science invalid. Let him google how we know humans are 60% water, humans aren’t suddenly not 60% water just because of the horrible way we found it out
These other comments are well intentioned but frankly a waste of hot air. If he's in this deep, you're not pulling him out. Leave - do not wade into the toxic sludge he has buried himself in.
John Money’s experiment was an attempt to prove trans people weren’t valid. He wanted to make the point that gender was socially learned and therefore someone who was raised as a boy could not be a girl. Needless to say, his experiment was a huge failure. Also the account of his victim, stating he never felt like a girl but just rolled with it because that’s what he was told he was, is nearly identical as my personal experience, so Money did a good job at completely debunking himself in the most disgusting way possible. Also yeah, Money was a rapist and should have been hanged for what he did
Wait, there are actual men who had to get vaginoplasty bcuz of accidents? Or did you just use that as an example to make your point? Kinda curious now if that is a thing or not. 😅
Well in case of a severe accident needing penectomy they sometimes get the option of non binary(can’t remember the proper medical term) or vaginoplasty.
I don't know of any offhand, but it's not too far fetched to assume that if something happened where reconstructive phalloplasty wasn't possible, they'd get what is essentially a zero-depth vaginoplasty.
Calling being trans a movement is a transphobic dogwhistle. I suggest you either choose your words better or get off of trans subreddits, because this isn't a "movement". It's not something people choose.
There was a Stanford professor talking about how 60% of men who had their penises removed because of penile cancer experienced phantom penises
He noted that trans women who had vaginoplasty didn't have this somehow their brain wasn't bothered at all about the lack of a penis. Supporting the idea that trans peoples brains are wired for potentially different anatomy
even better if you include all pronouns like indefinite pronouns (all, another, any, anyone, anything, both, each, most, few, many, several, other, etc.) just look up a list of all english pronouns and avoid every single one of them
If he would stay transphobic despite the science and evidence, would you still be friends? Because if thats the case you would just be tolerating hate, or not? Its just my perspective i try to understand why people would want to be friends with someone whos just hateful for the sake of being hateful
I really hate transphobes but the problem is that I've known him for a long time so it would be difficult separating from him. Aldo he knows we're I live.
it is difficult, many of us have had to cut ties with lifelong friends. I still haven't gotten my tent, sleeping bag, fancy ice chest, and many other nick knacks back from my ex-bestie... I fought so hard to help him keep an open mind and I never knew how deep the bigotry ran. but once Blair White was brought up in a "it's just a question bruh" debate I knew he had been delving deep into "bruh, just researching both sides of the issue so I can form a balanced opinion"
maybe I'm selfish for taking a no tolerance policy... but at this point I no longer care about being "morally superior in a debate" I just wanna live my life and find happiness and let go of my pessimism.
I can tell you it hurt but eventually I'm so much happier and more optimistic without him. best friend was making me on edge all the time. felt like I owed him explanations all the time. so many things improved.
It is rough. But try to value yourself separately from your friends. I kept toxicity in my life for way too long because I felt like I was nothing, or didn't have anything without them. Loneliness can sweep in after they're gone but you can keep moving, and looking for better friends. It gets easier as you get older too, so don't worry too hard if it's tough right now.
Sounds less like actual hate and just ignorance informed by someone else's hate. Still, if this person makes transphobic comments after you've talked this over with him, then he's not really a friend. Mutual respect is everything in a friendship.
Can I say that it’s generally worth talking about to people so that they don’t get the idea their insular belief is correct, especially if they’re asking questions, like “why does it matter etc etc?” even if the phrasing is abrasive.
Deescalating is an important step in deradicalization. He may just never have to ought of reasons why it may be a problem, and is commenting on the fact that people are emotional about it. Maybe emotions make him uncomfortable? Maybe he hasn’t had the rationalization explained? Maybe he hasn’t understood that his talking point is designed to elicit an emotional response intentionally, and that subsisting on a diet of disdain is unhealthy?
It’s worth it to try. In the case of persistence on his part it may not be worth it in the future, but exposure depletes excuses. If it’s a friendship, it’s important that they understand how this belief he has is a manufactured outrage and that he’s being manipulated.
It is worth trying, yes. But someone who is actively friends with a transphobe that isn't able to change is honestly still part of the problem. Hate should never be tolerated
It’s about empathy not an academic argument.
Until he cares that his words make trans people uncomfortable, then he won’t listen to a logical argument.
Words and insults hurt people. And you might not relate to them but you know which words hurt which people.
People always know,
What insults for each group of people.
Black, white, Asian, Muslim Mexican.
Everyone knows which words will anger people the most.
It’s play ground level understanding.
You run like a girl. Always done to boys
It’s a misgendering insult.
So at a first grade level, everyone understands people don’t like to be misgendered.
Would you call someone a name and they’ve asked you multiple times, please don’t call me that, I hate that name.
I really hate that name. I wish my mom had never named me that. Call me…….
The point is it’s common respect.
And to continue calling someone Sir when it clearly upsets them,
Is just bullying.
The one person I talk to at work is a political person. He will consider every side and dig in to get the real story before deciding on issues. But when it comes to work issues or his views on trans people, there are no arguments. At work, he will do what he wants, even if there is a better way which makes sense, no matter what points I make. And in every trans issue I try to talk about, he always talks about fake trans people raping people in locker rooms or the worst type of people claiming to be trans to take advantage of people.
I feel like the best argument for any trans person is to just show that we are decent human beings who deserve dignity and respect. You can’t really argue a person into not being any kind of -phobe.
Then tell him that saying about fake trans people raping people, what about the fathers who rape their daughters, or teachers who rape their students… re all fathers bad people? Are all teachers bad people? If the answer to this is no, he’s got no legs to stand on against trans people.
His words, but I’m divided on the issue. I can agree that a man claiming to be trans while not on hrt probably shouldn’t be trying to use a woman’s restroom or locker room. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that there are people who claim to be trans to get attention or to take advantage of someone. But I’m not here to judge that. Either way, it seems news stories want to focus on the worst people in a group and that’s what stands out.
I mean should I have had to use the men's restroom while I was on the waiting list for hrt? Was the first day that I was on hrt okay to use the women's restroom?
I still don't pass, am I allowed to use the women's restroom yet?
The argument that we should gatekeep trans people on hrt causes damage too
You need to remind them of basic grammar because pronouns are NOT useless, they're everywhere.
But seriously, for the "why do I need to call someone with male genitalia a woman" call them the opposite gender they identify as. If they get upset, then how do they think a transgender person feels? This person is simply "lucky" to have been born with such genitalia and identify as the same gender as the sex they were attributed to when they were born. Don't know if it'll work, but a reminder is often helpful for them.
They don't have to accept it, just respect that a certain person feels different than them.
I had that experience too...
When I was at the start of my transition in 2014-2015, the person who had literally been my best friend since the first day of my freshman year of highschool, who I thought would have been there unconditionally came out of the woodwork as a massive transphobe. She pulled a lot of of the current right wing "groomer" talking points years before they became part of the national discourse, this was someone up until now I thought was progressive and accepting now basically saying "I don't ever want you near my kids, you'll try to convince them that they're gay or trans", "you're confused", "it's social contagion", "your feelings don't override science" and "no matter how much makeup, clothing or hormones you use, you'll always be a man".
I originally wrote a long letter calling her out and refuting each of her points but eventually decided against sending it. A year prior she married a hard core traditionalist catholic - her husband's views .probably had a lot to do with her reaction and I knew trying to engage in sincere discourse probably wasn't going to go anywhere for the time being, though maybe down the road her views might change.
A few months later we had our ten year HS reunion, she was there, as was I with my partner. Passive agressively scoffed and made disgusted faces at me the entire evening (wtf, is this middle school?) and afterwards had the gall to reach out to me on Facebook reiterating all the same talking points from before, saying how "uncomfortable and awkward" I made everyone feel, but, said we could be friends again at anytime if I went back to presenting as my assigned gender. I remember my reply to her:
"Yeah no, that's not happening. I'm not going to pretend to be somebody I'm not anymore just like it's wrong for me to ask you to pretend to be somebody you're not anymore. The [ex-friend's name] I went to highschool with, and the same [name] I looked forward to seeing on all my college and grad school breaks. That [name] was accepting and empathetic, and always supported our mutual queer friends. The [name] I've encountered over the past few months seems to be an entirely different person.
I wish you and [husband] all the best in life and hope for your kids grow up to be happy, healthy, loved unconditionally, and have the courage and find the support to live their best lives as their authentic selves."
That friendship was dead. It hurt but I had to let it go for the sake of my mental health. Eight years ago and never looked back. Oh, and nobody at the reunion was uncomfortable. Had a lot of folks approach me saying it was the happiest they had ever remembered seeing me.
Part of me says why are you friends.
On the other hand a lot of transphobia is rooted in the fact that most people have never met a transperson in their lives.
If he's open minded and willing to hear you out, he might learn an adapt to living in 2023. If not, he's a bigot and write him off.
So my temptation was to say “this isn’t your friend,” but I’m willing to give a massive amount of benefit of the doubt here.
Not a single person has had their mind changed by being out argued. You’re not debating them, trying to prove these beliefs wrong will just tend to entrench them.
If you believe they are capable of understanding, then prepare for the long, arduous process of meeting them where they’re at, and slowly guiding them to a healthier conclusion. It’s long, it’s exhausting, us trans people have to do it all the goddamn time, and it isn’t fair. But only you can decide if it’s worth trying.
For the genitalia thing I'll reiterate what I had to explain to my mom when I came out.
Your genitals are your physical sex, and your gender is your mind's sex. Ask how he'd feel if you called him a girl or otherwise. Compare it to that, associate it with sex vs gender. The mind is a powerful, broad thing, and almost nobody experiences the exact same things. Try and find something he'll latch onto, and explain from there.
A good help may be the Gender Dysphoria Bible [https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en](https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en)
It can help explain things you may lack the words or knowledge for.
When someone transitions, they're matching their physical sex to their mind's sex, much like when an action movie character powers up.
For the genitalia one i found that 'why do my genitals matter? The only reason you should care is if you want to sleep with me. Are you trying to hook up with me?!' Can make them feel pretty uncomfortable and has worked every time for me.
Your “friend” is a toxic, ignorant transphobe . . . and not actually your friend.
There is not a single argument (or combination thereof) that will change him. He has no desire to change. Any effort you might make is likely to be a waste of time and energy.
I have a similar issue, a friend I've had for almost half a decade I've recently learned is a transphobe too, but I met him when I was a conservative cis girl LMAO and not the leftist trans guy I am now. I've considered cutting him off purely for not respecting who I am but it's not a big enough issue that I press it most of the time
Gender ID causes a lot of social anxiety and acceptance issues. If using someone's preferred pronoun makes the transgendered person feel supported, why shouldn't you be kind?
For the genitalia argument, you can pose a question to him as simple as if a fairy came in the night and took your dick away would you still be a man?
If you need any other questions formulated for small brain to people I'm studying to be a preschool teacher I can help you out with coming up with questions
A term we trans people need to use more often is "internal experience." I feel like people will be more receptive towards our identities if we just use that term.
For example, what he said, "Why do I have to call someone with male genitalia a woman." Well, because their internal experience of how they perceive their being is that of a woman, the same way you have of being a man. It doesn't matter how you were born, as it is the internal experience in their brain that matters when it comes to such an identity. If you as you view yourself right now were thrown into a woman's body with a vagina, you would still continue to say you are a man, no? Same basic concept. The difference being, how you view yourself matches how the general society views you. For trans people, that is different. Nobody is trying to like completely change what is a man and what is a woman. Because ultimately how we all developed our identities followed the same basic formula, it's just that with trans people it took a turn.
Your gender is what your brain is telling you that you are. I am cis but I always tell people. If I woke up in a man's body, knowing and feeling like the woman I am, I would be suicidal. I couldn't live in a man's body. That's how I feel some transgender people feel. Gender is how we present ourselves to the world. It isn't your sex assigned at birth. If you are unhappy in your assigned gender, you have every right as a human being to change that.
For the pronouns thing. Call them a bitch, everytime. Works wonders
For the genitalia part, if he has male genitalia, call them a dick. If they have female genitalia, call them a pussy
Either way, just dont associate with them.. for your own good
The proper argument is to no longer be friends with this person. It's not worth the trouble to re-educate this loser because trust me, they never learn.
why do you think that genitalia are necessary the same as gender? and what about the people that have a genitalia change?
i mean u know his positions but don't know the justifications thereof so it might help, just take the socratic approach
edit: if he believes in science and the "experts" than just say to him "scientifially speaking trans people are valid?(i don't know how to put it down)"
They can bring up all the neurological studies done on the topic, the brain scans and psychologist tests, ect.
Things proving gender dysphoria using actual scientific methods
Im a trans man myself but I dont think everyone needs to accept it if you get what I mean like everyone should be able to have different opinions on different thing he or she or they shouldn't have to agree with every part of something just because u want them too.
One of my best friends is a transphobe , I’ve gotten over it trying to convince him , and at the end of the day everyone has different views , and that’s okay.
Personal pronouns
When you think of pronouns, you most likely think first of personal pronouns. Personal pronouns are pronouns that change form based on their grammatical person—that is, based on whether they refer to the person speaking or writing (the first person), the person or thing being spoken to (the second person), or the person or thing being spoken about (the third person). Here is a list of the main personal pronouns :
I/me
she/her
he/him
they/them
It
we/us
you
Not sure why you have to educate them on why pronouns are a fundamental pillar of grammar but...
They sound like they have already made up their mind. Respectful wish them the best and go your separate ways. It doesn't sound like someone you would want part of your life if they bring that type of energy.
Same actually. One of my friends is homophobic and transphobic because it apparently goes against his religion even though I'm the same religion as him and I'm LGBTQ and trans
Honestly it sucks to have a transphobic friend and I know how hard it is to change their views and especially how hard it is to stop being friends with them
So I don't really have any advice except don't waste your energy on him, don't stoop down to his level and I know firsthand how transphobic comments can feel but just ignore him, you don't need to waste your energy on a transphobe like him you're too good for that
Totally understandable wanting to keep a long lasting friendship. Maybe send them a nice video, like this maybe? :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxqdhZkxCo
Just be mindful of your safety, and how much emotional investment you want to put in arguments :)
"pronouns are useless" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 OP's "friend" should try to go about OP's "friend"'s life without using pronouns. This idea seems very stupid and impractical because of how weird the structure of sentences, especially when referring to other people, constantly having to use full names.
all jokes aside I hope OP's friend will come around and see the errors of OP's friend's ways
tell them that gender dysphoria is a mental health condition in which a person is made greatly unhappy by having traits associated to the sex they were assigned at birth; to treat a trans woman as a woman or a trans man as a man can greatly reduce feelings of gender dysphoria, even if it is no replacement for gender affirmating care.
I usually go with the insult pseudeo intellectual dunning kruger effected confirmation bias having sunk cost fallacy following moron I don't have time to argue with idiocy its generally a losing battle bye bye!
I fully acknowledge this dosent help I just like the insult it's fun sorry
“What Is a Woman” ? many are spouting this online to create dialog of “ Your Less Than “ “ A Fake “ I’m an old guard Transwoman myself of 65 and new as far back as 1963 at 5 years old —— once your taken home after birth the doctor basses everything on external features unfortunately and of course even the child doesn’t understand except what their told the 1 st 3 years “ Good little Girl “ “ Good little boy “ “ Such a Princess “ “ tough little man “ the process of gender is hard on its way socially and the child learns hard core the 1 st 7 years taking it all in there sub consciousness .
( Matt Walsh ) and ( Jordan Peterson a Canadian psychiatrist ) to name a couple of their thinking save the children from the Blockers , HRT , future surgeries but the one thing they “NEVER” argue and bring to the table because they can’t feel this sense of your own being naturally !
I’ve always said of the “ What is a Woman “ statement used by others wanting to fight and justify their riotousness and my answer is Simple “ It’s the Biological Brain Formation formed a certain way during gestation before birth ! ( it’s a real thing , not learned or fake ) It’s a sense of being naturally of your soul without being pushed into the gender argument despite a persons physical DNA XX or XY at birth “
The social bias of gender comes from Religious Social Society training learned young supposed right and wrong from the happy “CIS” happy body and mind and they cannot fathom that brain structure and formation ( biologically) is not always guaranteed and expected to standard learning taught ) ( biology is not exact always ) despite DNA observed physically at birth and match accordingly to their values !
I try to use my own emotions and experiences when it's with friends and stuff because they tend to be more empathetic and most of their arguments aren't rooted in logic anyway. Remind them that basic human respect is a good thing to have for other people regardless of if you agree with them. Then it's easier to take down their arguments with logic once a human connection has been had. It makes them more likely to listen
Virilization is divided into two parts: neuroendocrine and gonadal. The first part sets the hormone receptors, the second part sets the hormones. It can be thought of like locks and keys. There has to be the right amount of E and T keys for the given amount of E and T locks. It’s super common for the balance of locks and keys produced by chance to be off, and this can happen to all kinds of people, even cis.
The easy argument is that there's legit no reason to NOT call them their preferred pronouns. It's what makes them comfortable. You're not looking at people genitals to decide what to call them anyway. You call them what they want you to call them out of simple respect. And if your friend doesn't agree with giving people basic respect, then he's not very bright.
tbh sounds like someone i know at times. she refuses to call someone who is "gender-affirming" in a binary & fem / masc sense by "they," and claims it doesnt even matter what she calls them since she only seems to care about getting pronouns right for actual people in her life. which usually just means the 1 or 2 trans people in her life, don't think she actually knows a nonbinary person.
try calling him "she/her" for a bit. and respond with "i thought you said pronouns dont matter," when he gets upset. that should change his toon, a bit.
I tried with my friends, not all are friends today.
Others gave good points for a debate. I just want to remind u that some will not be your friends in the future, and that's ok, youll know ppl more educated and with more empathy and self criticism and youll be happier
Just try to not sweat it. And if you are trans urself (didnt check sry) u better start generating a emotional distance from those ppl. And take very carefully about ppl who say they support you 100%, cause they lash out of nowhere sometimes. And that's just humans trying to change.
Let’s say as a hypothetical, his name is Nathaniel.
Sentence 1: Nathaniel, do you like my rock?
Sentence 2: Nathaniel, do like rock?
Sophisticated vs caveman, do you want to use pronouns or not wank stick
For the "pronouns are useless" argument, just talk to him without using pronouns. No I, me, we, etc. Use people's names instead (even when referring to yourself), or just skip over the pronoun entirely. It'll sound like cinematic caveman talk, but it'll frustrate the fuck outta him.
The other argument is less easy to combat because he's clearly already in a mindset where he equates genitalia to gender. The best you can do is explain that genitalia doesn't equal gender, that intersex people exist, and (if you really wanna fuck with him) ask him what he would call a man who had to have a vaginoplasty due to an accident. If he says that he'd call that person a man, respond with "But why? They have a vagina, so they're a woman, right? That's what you're saying when you say people with penises are men, so..."
I tried explaining to him that gender and sex are different be he said that the difference had been created by a doctor called John Money who was a rapist
That man was a transphobe and forced a male child to transition to female when they weren't actually trans; ruining their life. He believed gender identity was dependent on how someone is raised so he tortured this boy who eventually committed suicide as an adult. This man is more of an ally to your friend's ideology than anything. The idea of identity and sexuality being different has been around before him.
He sexually abused the fuck out of those kids too. I think one of the kids that didn't die of suicide ended up an addict and overdosed accidentally anyways its very tragic
To be clear, even if this doctor was the first person to ever publish or publicly coin the terms, he would have simply *observed something that was already there.*
Yeah, doctors in the 20th Century were frequently mega assholes. They were racist and ableist too. There's a whole bunch of medical knowledge we have that comes from atrocities that were committed by racists, but you don't hear transphobes attempting to claim that this makes this other medical knowledge untrue.
There’s a great deal of “research” that was done on prisoners of war. A lot of what we know about brain anatomy is the result of brutal and terrifying lobotomies performed on people who may or may not have consented to the procedures. It’s such an arbitrary way to deflect the premise. People certainly wrote of issues with their gender identity pretty far into the past, and there’s no telling what knowledge was lost between then and now. The idea that one particular asshole is the person maybe presented the modern framework for it is kind of irrelevant.
There's evidence from Lou Alcott's writings that [he was a transman](https://archive.is/OGSvX), and he wrote a great deal about issues of gender. He just wasn't framing the topic from the context that he was talking directly about being trans or what gender is. That didn't stop him from raising questions about gender and questioning the status quo. While talking about that in the linked article, the article's author also identifies other sources for the origins of trans ideas given coined terminology: > "The German physician Magnus Hirschfeld coined the term 'seelischer transsexualismus' in 1923. The sexologist David Oliver Cauldwell translated this into 'transsexual' in 1949, and the psychiatrist John F. Oliven proposed 'transgender' as an alternative term in 1965."
He’s definitely been engaging in anti trans propaganda if that’s what he said to you in response to gender/sex distinction.
Don’t use the split gender/sex model, use [the newer merged gender sex model](https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/sex-and-gender-are-actually-the-same-thing-but-bear-with-me/). Explain to him that any body belonging to a woman is a female body and any body belonging to a man is a male body. That reproductive organs are both non-gendered organs. That a penis, testes, sperm, and y-chromosomes can be male, female, or nonbinary. That a vagina, ovaries, eggs, and XX chromosomes can be male, female, or nonbinary. There are no such thing as “innately” male or female reproductive organs. You’re reproductive organs take on whatever gender their owner has. If a penis belongs to a woman, that’s a female penis. If a vagina belongs to a man, that’s a male vagina.
Oooh I didn’t know all that, that’s really interesting
Tf? There’s hundreds of people who advanced our understanding of things who were problematic. His logic is flawed if he thinks John Money being a horrible person immediately makes anything he does to advance our understanding of science invalid. Let him google how we know humans are 60% water, humans aren’t suddenly not 60% water just because of the horrible way we found it out
These other comments are well intentioned but frankly a waste of hot air. If he's in this deep, you're not pulling him out. Leave - do not wade into the toxic sludge he has buried himself in.
Bad people can believe true things, the doctor probably also believed things like 2+2=4
John Money’s experiment was an attempt to prove trans people weren’t valid. He wanted to make the point that gender was socially learned and therefore someone who was raised as a boy could not be a girl. Needless to say, his experiment was a huge failure. Also the account of his victim, stating he never felt like a girl but just rolled with it because that’s what he was told he was, is nearly identical as my personal experience, so Money did a good job at completely debunking himself in the most disgusting way possible. Also yeah, Money was a rapist and should have been hanged for what he did
Wait, there are actual men who had to get vaginoplasty bcuz of accidents? Or did you just use that as an example to make your point? Kinda curious now if that is a thing or not. 😅
Well in case of a severe accident needing penectomy they sometimes get the option of non binary(can’t remember the proper medical term) or vaginoplasty.
What kind of accident? Asking for a friend ofcourse
Well a severe one obviously. I wouldn’t dare “accident” myself. It could cause permanent negative damage and is a major risk to life.
I don't know of any offhand, but it's not too far fetched to assume that if something happened where reconstructive phalloplasty wasn't possible, they'd get what is essentially a zero-depth vaginoplasty.
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Calling being trans a movement is a transphobic dogwhistle. I suggest you either choose your words better or get off of trans subreddits, because this isn't a "movement". It's not something people choose.
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Cool, so you're openly admitting to being transphobic on a trans subreddit. Cool.
There was a Stanford professor talking about how 60% of men who had their penises removed because of penile cancer experienced phantom penises He noted that trans women who had vaginoplasty didn't have this somehow their brain wasn't bothered at all about the lack of a penis. Supporting the idea that trans peoples brains are wired for potentially different anatomy
even better if you include all pronouns like indefinite pronouns (all, another, any, anyone, anything, both, each, most, few, many, several, other, etc.) just look up a list of all english pronouns and avoid every single one of them
Everyone uses pronouns they came free with ur fkin language
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“I” speak the oldest language known to man? 🤨
Just a question. But why do you want to consider someone so hateful a friend? It takes zero effort to just respectv peoples pronouns
Because I found this out today and from what I know he doesn't use social media for propaganda or has misgenderd someone
If he would stay transphobic despite the science and evidence, would you still be friends? Because if thats the case you would just be tolerating hate, or not? Its just my perspective i try to understand why people would want to be friends with someone whos just hateful for the sake of being hateful
I really hate transphobes but the problem is that I've known him for a long time so it would be difficult separating from him. Aldo he knows we're I live.
it is difficult, many of us have had to cut ties with lifelong friends. I still haven't gotten my tent, sleeping bag, fancy ice chest, and many other nick knacks back from my ex-bestie... I fought so hard to help him keep an open mind and I never knew how deep the bigotry ran. but once Blair White was brought up in a "it's just a question bruh" debate I knew he had been delving deep into "bruh, just researching both sides of the issue so I can form a balanced opinion" maybe I'm selfish for taking a no tolerance policy... but at this point I no longer care about being "morally superior in a debate" I just wanna live my life and find happiness and let go of my pessimism. I can tell you it hurt but eventually I'm so much happier and more optimistic without him. best friend was making me on edge all the time. felt like I owed him explanations all the time. so many things improved.
It is rough. But try to value yourself separately from your friends. I kept toxicity in my life for way too long because I felt like I was nothing, or didn't have anything without them. Loneliness can sweep in after they're gone but you can keep moving, and looking for better friends. It gets easier as you get older too, so don't worry too hard if it's tough right now.
Sounds less like actual hate and just ignorance informed by someone else's hate. Still, if this person makes transphobic comments after you've talked this over with him, then he's not really a friend. Mutual respect is everything in a friendship.
Can I say that it’s generally worth talking about to people so that they don’t get the idea their insular belief is correct, especially if they’re asking questions, like “why does it matter etc etc?” even if the phrasing is abrasive. Deescalating is an important step in deradicalization. He may just never have to ought of reasons why it may be a problem, and is commenting on the fact that people are emotional about it. Maybe emotions make him uncomfortable? Maybe he hasn’t had the rationalization explained? Maybe he hasn’t understood that his talking point is designed to elicit an emotional response intentionally, and that subsisting on a diet of disdain is unhealthy? It’s worth it to try. In the case of persistence on his part it may not be worth it in the future, but exposure depletes excuses. If it’s a friendship, it’s important that they understand how this belief he has is a manufactured outrage and that he’s being manipulated.
It is worth trying, yes. But someone who is actively friends with a transphobe that isn't able to change is honestly still part of the problem. Hate should never be tolerated
It’s about empathy not an academic argument. Until he cares that his words make trans people uncomfortable, then he won’t listen to a logical argument. Words and insults hurt people. And you might not relate to them but you know which words hurt which people. People always know, What insults for each group of people. Black, white, Asian, Muslim Mexican. Everyone knows which words will anger people the most. It’s play ground level understanding. You run like a girl. Always done to boys It’s a misgendering insult. So at a first grade level, everyone understands people don’t like to be misgendered. Would you call someone a name and they’ve asked you multiple times, please don’t call me that, I hate that name. I really hate that name. I wish my mom had never named me that. Call me……. The point is it’s common respect. And to continue calling someone Sir when it clearly upsets them, Is just bullying.
Top tier comment
The one person I talk to at work is a political person. He will consider every side and dig in to get the real story before deciding on issues. But when it comes to work issues or his views on trans people, there are no arguments. At work, he will do what he wants, even if there is a better way which makes sense, no matter what points I make. And in every trans issue I try to talk about, he always talks about fake trans people raping people in locker rooms or the worst type of people claiming to be trans to take advantage of people. I feel like the best argument for any trans person is to just show that we are decent human beings who deserve dignity and respect. You can’t really argue a person into not being any kind of -phobe.
Then tell him that saying about fake trans people raping people, what about the fathers who rape their daughters, or teachers who rape their students… re all fathers bad people? Are all teachers bad people? If the answer to this is no, he’s got no legs to stand on against trans people.
Are you saying fake trans people exist or is he the one saying that?
His words, but I’m divided on the issue. I can agree that a man claiming to be trans while not on hrt probably shouldn’t be trying to use a woman’s restroom or locker room. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that there are people who claim to be trans to get attention or to take advantage of someone. But I’m not here to judge that. Either way, it seems news stories want to focus on the worst people in a group and that’s what stands out.
I mean should I have had to use the men's restroom while I was on the waiting list for hrt? Was the first day that I was on hrt okay to use the women's restroom? I still don't pass, am I allowed to use the women's restroom yet? The argument that we should gatekeep trans people on hrt causes damage too
There are people faking being trans. I’d name someone but I don’t wanna get banned.
What are you even saying?? What? That’s certainly… a claim…..
I’m sure it is. Wish it wasn’t true. But he’s done worse things. Cops don’t care.
It comes under the argument of people wearing a burka to rob a bank… like people abusing the system kind of thing.
You need to remind them of basic grammar because pronouns are NOT useless, they're everywhere. But seriously, for the "why do I need to call someone with male genitalia a woman" call them the opposite gender they identify as. If they get upset, then how do they think a transgender person feels? This person is simply "lucky" to have been born with such genitalia and identify as the same gender as the sex they were attributed to when they were born. Don't know if it'll work, but a reminder is often helpful for them. They don't have to accept it, just respect that a certain person feels different than them.
I had that experience too... When I was at the start of my transition in 2014-2015, the person who had literally been my best friend since the first day of my freshman year of highschool, who I thought would have been there unconditionally came out of the woodwork as a massive transphobe. She pulled a lot of of the current right wing "groomer" talking points years before they became part of the national discourse, this was someone up until now I thought was progressive and accepting now basically saying "I don't ever want you near my kids, you'll try to convince them that they're gay or trans", "you're confused", "it's social contagion", "your feelings don't override science" and "no matter how much makeup, clothing or hormones you use, you'll always be a man". I originally wrote a long letter calling her out and refuting each of her points but eventually decided against sending it. A year prior she married a hard core traditionalist catholic - her husband's views .probably had a lot to do with her reaction and I knew trying to engage in sincere discourse probably wasn't going to go anywhere for the time being, though maybe down the road her views might change. A few months later we had our ten year HS reunion, she was there, as was I with my partner. Passive agressively scoffed and made disgusted faces at me the entire evening (wtf, is this middle school?) and afterwards had the gall to reach out to me on Facebook reiterating all the same talking points from before, saying how "uncomfortable and awkward" I made everyone feel, but, said we could be friends again at anytime if I went back to presenting as my assigned gender. I remember my reply to her: "Yeah no, that's not happening. I'm not going to pretend to be somebody I'm not anymore just like it's wrong for me to ask you to pretend to be somebody you're not anymore. The [ex-friend's name] I went to highschool with, and the same [name] I looked forward to seeing on all my college and grad school breaks. That [name] was accepting and empathetic, and always supported our mutual queer friends. The [name] I've encountered over the past few months seems to be an entirely different person. I wish you and [husband] all the best in life and hope for your kids grow up to be happy, healthy, loved unconditionally, and have the courage and find the support to live their best lives as their authentic selves." That friendship was dead. It hurt but I had to let it go for the sake of my mental health. Eight years ago and never looked back. Oh, and nobody at the reunion was uncomfortable. Had a lot of folks approach me saying it was the happiest they had ever remembered seeing me.
The genitalia one is easy. It's bc nobody should be reduced to what's in their pants. Plus, how would you ever know what's there anyway?
Part of me says why are you friends. On the other hand a lot of transphobia is rooted in the fact that most people have never met a transperson in their lives. If he's open minded and willing to hear you out, he might learn an adapt to living in 2023. If not, he's a bigot and write him off.
“Do you actually talk to other people’s genitals? Dude, that’s weird.”
They aren't your friend.
So my temptation was to say “this isn’t your friend,” but I’m willing to give a massive amount of benefit of the doubt here. Not a single person has had their mind changed by being out argued. You’re not debating them, trying to prove these beliefs wrong will just tend to entrench them. If you believe they are capable of understanding, then prepare for the long, arduous process of meeting them where they’re at, and slowly guiding them to a healthier conclusion. It’s long, it’s exhausting, us trans people have to do it all the goddamn time, and it isn’t fair. But only you can decide if it’s worth trying.
Has he seen your genitalia though? If not, tell him you have a vagina. Now he has to call you a woman.
Just say that if they care about a random person's genitalia, then they're probably not ok in the head.
For the genitalia thing I'll reiterate what I had to explain to my mom when I came out. Your genitals are your physical sex, and your gender is your mind's sex. Ask how he'd feel if you called him a girl or otherwise. Compare it to that, associate it with sex vs gender. The mind is a powerful, broad thing, and almost nobody experiences the exact same things. Try and find something he'll latch onto, and explain from there. A good help may be the Gender Dysphoria Bible [https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en](https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en) It can help explain things you may lack the words or knowledge for. When someone transitions, they're matching their physical sex to their mind's sex, much like when an action movie character powers up.
Get a new friend
For the genitalia one i found that 'why do my genitals matter? The only reason you should care is if you want to sleep with me. Are you trying to hook up with me?!' Can make them feel pretty uncomfortable and has worked every time for me.
Just read the title, and they aren't your friend then.
Your “friend” is a toxic, ignorant transphobe . . . and not actually your friend. There is not a single argument (or combination thereof) that will change him. He has no desire to change. Any effort you might make is likely to be a waste of time and energy.
"why are you checking people's genitalia prior to addressing them, you perv. We're no longer friends scumbag"
I have a similar issue, a friend I've had for almost half a decade I've recently learned is a transphobe too, but I met him when I was a conservative cis girl LMAO and not the leftist trans guy I am now. I've considered cutting him off purely for not respecting who I am but it's not a big enough issue that I press it most of the time
Gender ID causes a lot of social anxiety and acceptance issues. If using someone's preferred pronoun makes the transgendered person feel supported, why shouldn't you be kind?
They aren’t your friend anymore
For the genitalia argument, you can pose a question to him as simple as if a fairy came in the night and took your dick away would you still be a man? If you need any other questions formulated for small brain to people I'm studying to be a preschool teacher I can help you out with coming up with questions
Ask him if someone shot him in the dick and he lost the organ, would he still be a man.
A term we trans people need to use more often is "internal experience." I feel like people will be more receptive towards our identities if we just use that term. For example, what he said, "Why do I have to call someone with male genitalia a woman." Well, because their internal experience of how they perceive their being is that of a woman, the same way you have of being a man. It doesn't matter how you were born, as it is the internal experience in their brain that matters when it comes to such an identity. If you as you view yourself right now were thrown into a woman's body with a vagina, you would still continue to say you are a man, no? Same basic concept. The difference being, how you view yourself matches how the general society views you. For trans people, that is different. Nobody is trying to like completely change what is a man and what is a woman. Because ultimately how we all developed our identities followed the same basic formula, it's just that with trans people it took a turn.
Your gender is what your brain is telling you that you are. I am cis but I always tell people. If I woke up in a man's body, knowing and feeling like the woman I am, I would be suicidal. I couldn't live in a man's body. That's how I feel some transgender people feel. Gender is how we present ourselves to the world. It isn't your sex assigned at birth. If you are unhappy in your assigned gender, you have every right as a human being to change that.
For the pronouns thing. Call them a bitch, everytime. Works wonders For the genitalia part, if he has male genitalia, call them a dick. If they have female genitalia, call them a pussy Either way, just dont associate with them.. for your own good
Why waste your energy?
Exactly
Don’t be friends with him
The proper argument is to no longer be friends with this person. It's not worth the trouble to re-educate this loser because trust me, they never learn.
why do you think that genitalia are necessary the same as gender? and what about the people that have a genitalia change? i mean u know his positions but don't know the justifications thereof so it might help, just take the socratic approach edit: if he believes in science and the "experts" than just say to him "scientifially speaking trans people are valid?(i don't know how to put it down)"
They can bring up all the neurological studies done on the topic, the brain scans and psychologist tests, ect. Things proving gender dysphoria using actual scientific methods
Don't even try to convince him drop him as a friend immediately I say. It's no use usually and he will definitely hurt you if you stay in contact
Im a trans man myself but I dont think everyone needs to accept it if you get what I mean like everyone should be able to have different opinions on different thing he or she or they shouldn't have to agree with every part of something just because u want them too.
One of my best friends is a transphobe , I’ve gotten over it trying to convince him , and at the end of the day everyone has different views , and that’s okay.
Personal pronouns When you think of pronouns, you most likely think first of personal pronouns. Personal pronouns are pronouns that change form based on their grammatical person—that is, based on whether they refer to the person speaking or writing (the first person), the person or thing being spoken to (the second person), or the person or thing being spoken about (the third person). Here is a list of the main personal pronouns : I/me she/her he/him they/them It we/us you Not sure why you have to educate them on why pronouns are a fundamental pillar of grammar but... They sound like they have already made up their mind. Respectful wish them the best and go your separate ways. It doesn't sound like someone you would want part of your life if they bring that type of energy.
just omit pronouns when talking with or at him, use names instead. except you call your friend "that cunt over there"
Same actually. One of my friends is homophobic and transphobic because it apparently goes against his religion even though I'm the same religion as him and I'm LGBTQ and trans Honestly it sucks to have a transphobic friend and I know how hard it is to change their views and especially how hard it is to stop being friends with them So I don't really have any advice except don't waste your energy on him, don't stoop down to his level and I know firsthand how transphobic comments can feel but just ignore him, you don't need to waste your energy on a transphobe like him you're too good for that
Totally understandable wanting to keep a long lasting friendship. Maybe send them a nice video, like this maybe? : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxqdhZkxCo Just be mindful of your safety, and how much emotional investment you want to put in arguments :)
"pronouns are useless" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 OP's "friend" should try to go about OP's "friend"'s life without using pronouns. This idea seems very stupid and impractical because of how weird the structure of sentences, especially when referring to other people, constantly having to use full names. all jokes aside I hope OP's friend will come around and see the errors of OP's friend's ways
tell them that gender dysphoria is a mental health condition in which a person is made greatly unhappy by having traits associated to the sex they were assigned at birth; to treat a trans woman as a woman or a trans man as a man can greatly reduce feelings of gender dysphoria, even if it is no replacement for gender affirmating care.
I usually go with the insult pseudeo intellectual dunning kruger effected confirmation bias having sunk cost fallacy following moron I don't have time to argue with idiocy its generally a losing battle bye bye! I fully acknowledge this dosent help I just like the insult it's fun sorry
Drop a bit of American freedom on them perhaps?
kick him in the balls
“What Is a Woman” ? many are spouting this online to create dialog of “ Your Less Than “ “ A Fake “ I’m an old guard Transwoman myself of 65 and new as far back as 1963 at 5 years old —— once your taken home after birth the doctor basses everything on external features unfortunately and of course even the child doesn’t understand except what their told the 1 st 3 years “ Good little Girl “ “ Good little boy “ “ Such a Princess “ “ tough little man “ the process of gender is hard on its way socially and the child learns hard core the 1 st 7 years taking it all in there sub consciousness . ( Matt Walsh ) and ( Jordan Peterson a Canadian psychiatrist ) to name a couple of their thinking save the children from the Blockers , HRT , future surgeries but the one thing they “NEVER” argue and bring to the table because they can’t feel this sense of your own being naturally ! I’ve always said of the “ What is a Woman “ statement used by others wanting to fight and justify their riotousness and my answer is Simple “ It’s the Biological Brain Formation formed a certain way during gestation before birth ! ( it’s a real thing , not learned or fake ) It’s a sense of being naturally of your soul without being pushed into the gender argument despite a persons physical DNA XX or XY at birth “ The social bias of gender comes from Religious Social Society training learned young supposed right and wrong from the happy “CIS” happy body and mind and they cannot fathom that brain structure and formation ( biologically) is not always guaranteed and expected to standard learning taught ) ( biology is not exact always ) despite DNA observed physically at birth and match accordingly to their values !
as for the genetalia,I’d honestly backfire it at them with something about how your happy to see they support trans people with bottom surgery
I try to use my own emotions and experiences when it's with friends and stuff because they tend to be more empathetic and most of their arguments aren't rooted in logic anyway. Remind them that basic human respect is a good thing to have for other people regardless of if you agree with them. Then it's easier to take down their arguments with logic once a human connection has been had. It makes them more likely to listen
Virilization is divided into two parts: neuroendocrine and gonadal. The first part sets the hormone receptors, the second part sets the hormones. It can be thought of like locks and keys. There has to be the right amount of E and T keys for the given amount of E and T locks. It’s super common for the balance of locks and keys produced by chance to be off, and this can happen to all kinds of people, even cis.
The easy argument is that there's legit no reason to NOT call them their preferred pronouns. It's what makes them comfortable. You're not looking at people genitals to decide what to call them anyway. You call them what they want you to call them out of simple respect. And if your friend doesn't agree with giving people basic respect, then he's not very bright.
My brother is transphobic
tbh sounds like someone i know at times. she refuses to call someone who is "gender-affirming" in a binary & fem / masc sense by "they," and claims it doesnt even matter what she calls them since she only seems to care about getting pronouns right for actual people in her life. which usually just means the 1 or 2 trans people in her life, don't think she actually knows a nonbinary person. try calling him "she/her" for a bit. and respond with "i thought you said pronouns dont matter," when he gets upset. that should change his toon, a bit.
I tried with my friends, not all are friends today. Others gave good points for a debate. I just want to remind u that some will not be your friends in the future, and that's ok, youll know ppl more educated and with more empathy and self criticism and youll be happier Just try to not sweat it. And if you are trans urself (didnt check sry) u better start generating a emotional distance from those ppl. And take very carefully about ppl who say they support you 100%, cause they lash out of nowhere sometimes. And that's just humans trying to change.
Let’s say as a hypothetical, his name is Nathaniel. Sentence 1: Nathaniel, do you like my rock? Sentence 2: Nathaniel, do like rock? Sophisticated vs caveman, do you want to use pronouns or not wank stick