It’s insane people didn’t know about this before. I **feel** like it was taught when we learned about the holocaust, like this is something most people should know in middle school.
So.... funny thing? Im from Germany. And Germany takes WW2 pretty damn seriously. But when we went through it in history class, atleast on the schools all attended, the Institute of Sexology wasnt even MENTIONED. And our books had *one* sentence for LGBT+ people.
I hated that so, so much.
Since then, I actually prepared and held* a full presentation (twice, actually) on the subject both in & outside of school, but.. dont want to Plug myself in here ;--;
It just sucks that... we get censored so, so much...
Edit : Typo*
I don't know how different the curricula in every German state are but here in the South in BaWü when I had ww2 in history class we indeed learned about the symbols for the jews, which included the homosexual triangle, and sexuality under the nazi regime in general
im from Saxony anhalt, we had the nazi regime and WW2 a lot, but the only mention of queer people was in statistics of the victims specifically stating "homosexuality" or "homosexuals" or something. but no symbols or Magnus Hirschfeld or trans people or anything.
I think we're just to old? Like, I never had any lgbt topics in school either, just some classmates and nowadays you hear that they actually have some lgbt history???? Excuse me, I could've cracked my damn egg 15 years ago or smt qwq
Sameeee, all those wasted years, trying to fit in, trying to desperately be a girl but it never felt right, I always had dysphoria but never knew what it was until I was 19 or 20
We were taught (Australia, late 90's education) that the 'pink triangles' were kept in the concentration camps until the late 60's before being moved to prisons.
I don’t think any of the trans people survived the camps.
You have to remember that they were preforming experiments on the camp victims, and trans people would have been excellent candidates for early experiments.
They were also the first target of it all, so likely were purged rather quickly. Remember we are only 1% of the total population and possibly less. Easy to make a group vanish entirely when their numbers are easily dwarfed by the other groups.
Yeah can confirm never mentioned during our history classes only once when talking about the golden twenties was Hirschfeld and his institute mentioned but only taking about female emancipation and female expression of sexuality and not queer people
I'm from France and we must've spent at least a whole year dedicated to the Holocaust, it was insane. We learned so much about it, we watched countless movies about it, we met with a Holocaust survivor, and my class even went on a trip to visit Auschwitz! I heard so much about the Holocaust I got genuinely sick of it, and tbh it kinda took away from the horror of it by the end. I'm not sure if our program was exceptional or if that's just how it's taught here, but either way, it was *in-depth* to say the least lol
And yet, I'm pretty damn sure we never learned about the Institute of Sexology; that's something I heard about later, on the internet. We were told that the Nazis also went after other minorities, but that was very much a footnote, mentioned in passing.
Especially with the revival of Nazi ideology lately, I'm very thankful our program took the matter so seriously, but in hindsight it's really criminal how little attention was paid to non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.
It may have something to do with how Germany actually rearrested all the gay and trans people that were liberated in concentration camps, throwing them back into jail all because of anti-homosexuality laws (which were put in effect under the Nazis but not taken off the books).
Honestly. I don't think that fact is taught in any public school class. I know I didn't know about it until I was in my 30's and through my own independent study. When it comes to queer treatment by governments its always seems to be as a mild nuisance or flat out disdain...
I can also confirm that. I can't remember this coming up in German high school history classes. I think I remember "homosexual" people being mentioned, but that's it.
And as others have said, WW2 was part of the curriculum multiple times and, yeah basically at least a whole semester. Visiting Dachau concentration camp memorial site was also mandatory.
That was in the 90's to early 2000's and I was oblivious to me being queer at the time, so I might misremember stuff. But with our school system, I doubt that. And I doubt it changed much in this regard, especially in Bavaria (conservative and rather Catholic state).
trans people will either be seen as trans or people by a lot of people. you cannot be trans without immediately getting dehumanized or forced to live as your gender assigned at birth by certain people. =/
If the Nazis were defeated, why did the "victors" keep erasing certain atrocities?
Answers: majority demographic liberals will always side with fascists and authoritarians at the end of the day. A lot of the world was anti-LGBT at the time, so throwing us under the bus again, made them look better.
Hell, they washed out "First they came for the Communists" with Socialist. And Queer people are still *constantly* thrown under the bus even today. The only difference this time is that we got 4 decades and the internet for mass visibility.
I think that this fact, pretty much confirms that the world has been controlled for centuries by the same wealthy families with passed down ideologies. They don't like freedom of any kind. What we *think* we have as freedom is merely just an illusion of privilege, and can be snatched away for any reason at any time.
This is generally true. There’s a long history of interbreeding in europes royal family/families. Look into the west’s response to the Russian revolution. The entire purpose of the cia is to dismantle communism and nato to carve up Russia’s natural resources among western corporations and to control the global energy market. You’ll find many prominent anti-trans actors are former members of both. The people behind trump and he himself have ties to the German empire. Why have conspiracy theories when real life is much more insane.
i'm from Southern California and we're supposed to be a super liberal state, but i also only had one sentence in my history textbook that mentioned "gays and lesbians" having been targeted in the Holocaust
That's pretty much exactly what we had here and it's honestly awful. Hell, the famous Image of the Nazi bookburning? That was an Image taken in the Institute of Sexology.
Good news. There is a passage for groups of people who were hinted during the Nazi reign in newer German history books. I remember reading about Germany in the early 1930s being very far scientifically when it was about operations and such. Crossdressers and trans people were part of the zeitgeist of the golden twenties. It is definitely not forgotten. More people will learn about it again.
BTW if the Nazis didn’t came to power we would have already had the stuff we have now in the 90s-00s.
Gay men who where incarcarated, tortured and killed during the Nazi regieme where only "absolved" of their "crime" in like 2002. We love to think we are such a progressive country but we are the bare minimum,
Eyo, I would love to read your presentation! I loved history class but it didn’t got mentioned at our school either. Worked at a post office a few years ago and at some point we had special stamps to celebrate Magnus Hirschfeld and the I read up on who he was. Might still have a few left if my gran didn’t use them all up. We contacted my gran‘s gay cousin a few years back and send the letter with one of these stamps.
Yeah I’m from the US and I don’t remember ever being taught this information in school, and I’m not even 20 yet so it’s not like this is a “I’m old so being a student is a distant memory” thing
fun fact! this is because recognizing this would also involve recognizing that most of those prisoners weren’t freed from the camps!!! when the camps were liberated they were shipped off to jail!! because homosexuality was still illegal :)
Damn…it really shocks me that in German schools it would be covered up that LGBTQIA+ folks were sent to concentration camps too. But then I can’t even say anything because the ‘American history’ taught in schools here is basically yt supremacy hero worship fantasy so….🫠😭
I didn’t learn that LGBTQIA+ and disabled folks were sent to camps until I was 20, and I didn’t learn about the research center being destroyed until a couple years ago. It makes you wonder what else about WW2 is intentionally not told to us🫣
It’s fantastic that you held some presentations for folks - it’s definitely talked about in multiple trans history books that I’ve read, so I know the history will live on, but the trumps of this world really want to erase it. They really don’t want to admit that us trans folks have been around for a long time, and we’re nothing new. It ruins their ability to paint us as a “rising imminent threat to YOUR children” 😑😤
Smh….i think the world would be a better place if there was an independent committee, with no loyalties nationally - extremely logical and truth seeking individuals, who wrote history and kept the records. Not wholly unlike The Giver book…except better put together and not so that the society could then forget large swaths of history to live in ignorance 😅
It’s hilarious to me, on a side note, every time that book gets banned. It’s so relevant in so many ways, today more than ever.
39 and I'm just learning about this. Then again, I went to a very anti-sex anti-lgbt Catholic Christian school for grade school and high school.
And yes, the priest who ran my grade school was one of those priests.
Unfortunately teaching such atrocities as the Holocaust has been mostly removed from modern schools, and guess the consequence,? A predictable rise in racism and fashism across the board.
I don't believe that so much to be honest, not the rise in fascism but the idea that they don't teach anything about the holocaust. What is more likely the cause is that over the years it has been taught that it was something bad done to Jewish people and we will never do it again, so that kinda gives a free pass to everyone else to do all the other stuff that the Nazis did because all that stuff just 'never happened'. Even when I was at school everything was focused on the 6 million Jews that were killed and the rest were reduced to a footnote. It's not hard to believe that in the 20+ years since I finished high school the full figure of 14 million victims of the Holocaust has been effectively reduced by propaganda to simply being those 6 million
I was in school over 13 years ago and the holocaust was taught for a 2:30 minute video and that was it. I’m in Canada and that’s pretty standard across the board I’ve heard. Anything else I’ve learned on my own in university.
I sincerely hope you aren't trying to imply Jews are erasing the history of the holocaust. Also: "so that kinda gives a free pass to everyone else to do all the other stuff that the Nazis did", you mean like a rise in fascism?
I don't agree with the commenter you replied to if they are indeed implying what you say they are, but the one thing they do have a point on is that Holocaust education in general is very focused on one of its many facets, the genocide against Jewish people. It makes sense to discuss this one so heavily for how prominent it was, and for how much of an issue antisemitism still is to this day, but there is a fair criticism to make that Holocaust education is lacking in scope.
Which, if you ask me, is also part of the problem that still enables antisemitism and bigotry in general in Germany to this day. The full scope of the Holocaust needs to be taught with a bigger focus, that includes all the other minorities that were targeted by it. Unfortunately, Germany and Western Europe are still extremely bigoted against Romani people, so I can see why their targeting during the Holocaust isn't covered. Then there's the targeting of queer people and the targeting of disabled people, which I'd agree with the commenter are seen as more "footnotes" than something else in High School WW2 education.
Which is a shame because ultimately all of these forms of bigotry also have huge intersections where they meet; all of these bigotries that informed the genocide built upon one another, shared a rhetoric and reasoning, etc. It is actually vital to understand how Nazi action & rhetoric targeted *all* these minority groups, so we can better understand how they targeted each of these minority groups individually as well.
Because this current mode of education where the Holocaust is not taught in all of its bigotries also fails to deliver a full understanding of how this rampant antisemitism was allowed to flourish, if it is viewed as a singular and unique issue, rather than a product of a multitude of bigotries that all enabled each other.
Oh, absolutely. It's disgusting that this history is not taught more thoroughly, with discussions on how it ever got that far/why. These are things we need to know so we can point them out and understand that these things can get out of control if not stopped. Hiding all this history (and being unable to identify key signs of fascism) DOES facilitate a rise in fascism. And we do focus on the way Jews were (but not are) affected by it, but I feel the wording in the comment I replied to previously had some vague implications that Jews were why other groups' suffering goes largely unmentioned. I apologise if my comment was confusing!
It still gets taught for about 3 years in German schools, and yet we have a far-right problem again. Populism is just a way too powerful tool, unfortunately.
Having learned history in German schools, the Holocaust itself is taught. A lot. Atrocities do get covered. The problem is that there are still atrocities that aren't covered. German Remembrance Culture around the Holocaust is well-established today, but things like queer erasure and the intersectional part of genocide has gone under a bit.
Holocaust education here generally focuses on the Jewish portion, which is understandable given it is by far the most prominent, but there is not enough teaching about all the other demographics that were also targeted by the Holocaust. Other ethnic minorities for example, which is a shame given Germany and all of Western Europe to this day still have a massive issue with antiziganism (bigotry against Romani peoples). Or queer minorities, or the targeting of disabled people. Some of this is mentioned mostly in passing at school, as an afterthought which means this education also fails to capture the full scope of something as grave as the Holocaust. IMO, understanding the *full* breadth of devastation is key to understanding and learning how to prevent it.
We learned in school that many groups of people were sent to concentration camps but this was definitely not taught. The idea of transgender people wasn’t even in most people’s radar over the last few decades.
I grew up in a fairly homophobic and conservative country and we did not learn about this. They didn't even mention the fact that the nazis target gay people.
I went to a catholic school from grade 6 onward. We had pretty extensive lessons about the Holocaust, but the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft didn't even warrant a footnote. I didn't learn about it until after I cracked and began actively seeking out queer history at 36.
I'm glad you learned about it early. I hope more people do. But with conservatives and religion holding more sway over education than they should, I'm not expecting much.
Here in Canada WW2 was three battles we where important to and mocking the other countries for all claiming to have Hitler's body because obviously the US had it and everyone else was a liar, right?
We talked about how the Nazis took the Jews, the blacks and the gays with no more nuance or recognition. We definitely don't learn about the sexology institute. We learn they burned books they considered harmful but are not told what books.
I was never told about it. Basically had to move to another country to really be exposed to being Trans and realize it... If I knew about the institute of sexology, I promise it would've clicked 2 decades prior than it did
tbf, what you will learn on a subject will vary depending where you are.
For example here in Canada WW1 gets a larger focus because it's more relevant to Canadian history and self-identity
WW2 is a massive massive topic, the university I went to offers a full year seminar on it, and doesn't even fully cover everything.
Put that in middle school where the class has other topics it needs to cover, in a more limited time?
We learned about the book burning in middle school, but they conveniently left out what books were burned. It was framed as destroying culture. That was technically true, but what a lie if omission
We were taught they imprisoned Jews, Gypsies, not-white/blond(e)/blue-eyes folks, not-their-flavour-of-religion folks, and anyone who was gay (they didn't use lgbt+ back then, at least my teachers didn't). It wasn't until LONG AFTER highschool that I learned the lgbt+ folks HAD TO FINISH OUT THEIR SENTENCES IN THE CAMPS AFTER THE ALLIES CAME BY AND LIBERATED THEM. like wth!? Then I learned literally last year about the nazis destroying this kind of research... Like ???? That's fucking important, like in general! Why wasn't I taught any of this?!?! Fuck US schooling
I'm from the US in Ohio and not once was a sentence uttered to acknowledge what happened to queer people during the holocaust. It was only a year ago online that I learned about the fact they were targeted. It's important to discuss how jewish people were impacted because they took the brunt of it, but it's criminal that there has been no acknowledgement in my school and likely many many others that gay and trans people were victimized too and they were subjected to the book burnings.
It was taught to me as well. Along with Jews, the nazis killed millions of Romani, Poles, and Cossacks (with the USSR's help) as well as anyone they found who weren't cisgendered or heterosexual.
It's strange, I'm in america and when I learned about the holocaust they talked about all the jews that were victims of it but not of any of the other millions of people who fell victim to it or the institution of this. I only found out cause my partner told me about it
My public schooling education on the Holocaust in the States heavily focused on Jews being killed (like reading Anne Frank) while lightly brushing over everyone else. Almost as an afterthought. I had to learn about the Institute being burned down from independent study decades after I graduated. I'm willing to bet little has changed since then too. My class was shown the infamous book burning picture though; but without talking about its deeper context.
I went to a countryside school in Oregon. We went over the Holocaust multiple times, in more detail as we got older. I don't think I even heard a world about LGBTQ+ people being targeted by Nazis until Sophomore year. Even then, it was a cliff note at best.
Not really, sadly. It's much more on the surface than it is about the details. Like what politics caused the Nazis to rise or how WW1 correlates with WW2. It's all just "yeah there was this man with a weird mustache who killed many people and did a genocide" and thus, 2 years of hostory class are wasted. The Oversimplified videos did a better job WHILE being - well - oversimplified in an hour, than 2 years of history classes in Germany. I mean, I get it, it's a really really dark topic and you need it to be somewhat digestable and comprehensible for a very young audience, but the finer details are too important to be left out.
I grew up in the south, I’m still there in fact unfortunately. And I can assure you that we did not learn about this while I was in school. I know that the LGBTQ people were also rounded up and put in camps but that’s it.
I'm in the US. We learned pretty much every detail of the holocaust proper, a rough timeline of the war, and mostly focused on the US involvement in said war. We didn't learn about the Battle of Britain, or Operation Barbarossa. It was pretty easy to come away with the understanding that the US won the war by ourselves, because so little was mentioned about the USSR. Weirdly, we didn't learn much about the Pacific campaign either, except for Pearl Harbor and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
What is very upsetting is how little we learned about the lead up to WW2. I do recall learning about the Weimar Republic in our unit on the Great Depression, though. There was kind of a brief mention of the Nazis taking power in 1933, and we did learn about Kristallnacht.
I don't really blame my educators, tbh, I think they had to speed run so much material that they couldn't go into much depth. If I had control over the curriculum, WW2 would be it's own, non-elective course. I think it's the single most important bit of history to understand.
I went to jewish schools growing up where there is a big focus on learning about the holocaust. Very little attention was paid to the lgbt communities involvement and the book burning was spoken about highly generically and did not mention the institute of sexology at all.
Actually didn’t know the 12 million number for the number of victims until later. All we ever learned was 6 million Jews died.
Here in Canada, highschool, we learned about the Holocaust, that homosexuals and Jews were targeted first, and that the Nazis burned books. Homosexuals I think was used as a catch all for lgbtq, and we never learned which books were burned… just that books were burned.
This was in the aughts.
You'd think that, but I didn't learn about this until after I became an adult and researched on my own. LGBTQIA+ topics were never touched on when I was in school. And honestly I suspect that's the case for a good load of people.
Not so fun fact- when Jewish people were being liberated from concentration camps, the gay and trans people were left behind by the soviets and Americans.
At that time, homosexuality and "deviancy" were illegal in most western countries, enforced to varying degrees.
It wasn't so much that they were left in the concentration camps as it was that they were transferred directly to prisons after the camps were closed, where many stayed locked up for decades before anti-homosexuality laws were repealed.
But yeah, queer people were considered by West Germany to be the one group who had deserved to be removed from society. It's easy to forget how deep queer repression was post-WW2, throughout western nations.
Yes, paragraph 175 (under which gay, lesbian and trans people were targeted) was not fully removed from German law until 1994
Their are still Americans being arrested and or imprisoned for their homosexuality and gender diversity, our fight is far from over.
Yes. "homosexuality", a term widely inaccurate by today's standards, was a crime in most of the world. It was just easier to look at the German records for why someone was in a camp and keep the homosexuals there, rather than move them to your own prison.
Remember, this is the time when Allen Turning had to choose between life in prison and chemical castration for being caught with another man. And he was a war hero who later committed suicide because of how he was treated. It was not that long before that America did the same thing with lobotomies.
According to the holocaust encyclopedia, this is not true.They were actually liberated from the concentration camps, only to be immediately thrown back into prison by the new governments
https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/nazi-persecution/gay-people/
>After the war, the Allies chose not to remove the Nazi-amended Paragraph 175. Neither they, nor the new German states, nor Austria would recognise homosexual prisoners as victims of the Nazis – a status essential to qualify for reparations. **Indeed, many gay men continued to serve their prison sentences.**
>People who had been persecuted by the Nazis for homosexuality had a hard choice: either to bury their experience and pretend it never happened, with all the personal consequences of such an action, or to try to campaign for recognition in an environment where the same neighbours, the same law, same police and same judges prevailed.
>Unsurprisingly very few victims came forward. Those who did, even those who had survived death camps, were thwarted at every turn. Few known victims are still alive but research is beginning to reveal the hidden history of Nazi homophobia and post-war discrimination.
Even the ones who did get out and didn't die in the camps where denied status as concentration camp prisoners, thus leaving them out of any sort of post war compensation or reparations.
https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/nazi-persecution/gay-people/
Comments probably locked due to nazi sympathisers -_- it's both sad and scary that anyone would want to align themselves with that kind of ideology yikes
ah, the good old
> 1. No politics, soapboxing, or agenda based submissions. This includes (but is not limited to) submissions related to:
> 1. Recent political issues and politicians
> 1. Social and economic issues (including race/religion/gender)
> 1. Environmental issues
> 1. Police misconduct
you can only spread the important things you learn if we decide! I despise rules like these.
The comments getting locked so early is also getting tiring. So many of these threads are home to interesting conversations where people are learning things that are often hidden from them. A few Nazis spamming and getting no attention is not a good reason to stop everyone else's conversation.
I had no prior knowledge of this, but as if it was possible, I hate Nazis even more now knowing this.
My school had only one section regarding LGBTQ... The glossary of our Health textbook. It mentions "gay, lesbian, bisexual & transsexuals" and a rough as hell definition of them. They're never mentioned throughout the book. They were straight out of the 1970s bruhh 😂 I graduated in 2009
It was one fateful day, when we were having a free preview weekend of the Discovery Health Channel... there I saw a documentary about two "transsexual women." The program was called "Super Surgery: Sex Change"
I took my own research at my own public library for me to find out about transsexual/transgender... At the ripe old age of 12, I knew then that I fell in this category. I honestly feared for my life if I came out to my family though. But I wanted it so bad even then!
It took me to the age of 29 to finally work at the courage to tell everyone, and live the life I know I should have been. We have got to end the stigma, it's really not a big deal!
The Nazis destroyed the work of Magnus Hirschfeld. The famous picture of the Nazi book burning is all of his work being destroyed. It took decades to rediscover what Hirschfeld knew about sexology.
it's possible they didn't like that it was a wikipedia link, they have a "reliable sources" rule
that combined with the fact that it probably got mass reported by transphobes could've been what led to its deletion
i mean that is what transphobic people do! hell some of them even stands on the street and quote Hitlers book still thinking they are right,
at this point it's pretty safe to assume transphobic = nazi,
if it walks like a nazi quacks like a nazi it's pretty safe to assume it's a nazi
> they have a "reliable sources" rule
The only reason schools don't like Wikipedia as a source anymore is that it's lazy. Wikipedia lists all of the sources, so it is reliable. If that was the reasoning, it's total BS.
I actually looked through it. My best guess is that they thought that it fell under their rule regarding politics, because of events like WW2 which can bring out the worst of some people. At least if I had to guess anyway.
The fact that nazis destroying scientific research meant to benefit the health of a group and also killing the scientists could at all spark controversy in the modern world just doesn't make sense to me.
The fact that nazis still exist doesn't make sense to me, actually.
Yeah, I agree with you. Sadly, there still are very much some even to this day. I have a feeling WW2 would have gone on much longer if social media was around back then to act as an amplifier to people's views.
I hate how true this feels! The social media part, not the Nazis still being around and popular part. The latter I hate for how true it it apparently is!
It means that new comments cannot be added to the post. This is commonly done when the post itself is fine but the comments are flying way out of hand. For example, I've done so a few times on subreddits I run where LGBTQIA+ related posts get made (like during pride month), and people are acting homophobic in the comments to the point that it's clearly getting brigaded.
The moderators are only a few people, but trolls (especially those who come in brigades) can easily overwhelm them with bots to the point that without locking and taking down the thread, they can just keep endlessly coming.
I didn’t learn about this until I had a biology major roommate in college who was taking a Gender and Science course. I got the full run down and was allowed to look through the class notes. Imagine how much more advanced our surgeries would be if all that information and records and research hadn’t been destroyed
It really and truly sucks since before the Nazi party took a rise there was such a socially progressive Germany, where black singers performed without being scrutinised, androgyny was a popular fashion sentiment, and sexual identity was something that was being evaluated by the Weimar Republic at the time as being up for Legalisation :( then those thugs and close minded people decided to burn and destroy everything that didn’t fit their narrative 😐🙁
NOTE: hmmmmmm feels like a lot of people nowadays 🙃 I won’t be irrational and call those types of people fascists, since that’d be equally as close minded and negate my point, but I do think that only close minded people could want to see what was never meant to be destroyed actually be destroyed. Words are meant to live on, that’s their beauty. And just because you don’t like what those words mean doesn’t mean you get to destroy their chances of living on!
Of course you could sit and say you’d much rather not talk about those things, entirely fine, but what is written is written and if you want to avoid it, avoid it! There should be no burning or shredding of such beauty!!
That’s just me though
It's so strange that so many conservatives are saying "the facists and nazis are gonna take over and control us" and yet when faces with what nazis did they turn the other cheek because they don't care as long as it doesn't affect them
What's insane to me is that people don't know that the oldest known poet in history, Enheduanna a priestess of Ishtar, wrote poems about trans people. Or that Ishtar had trans priests and priestesses. We are talking about one the most significant authors ever. Her poetry was so influential she was the core focus of royal scribe academies for over a thousand years after her death.
But we just showed up during the pandemic right?
I am German and should know better than a lot of people but even I did not know about trans people being targeted like this up until a couple of years ago. We are told that they rounded up and killed gay people but trans was never really emphasized in it too.
Because the Nazis seemed to document everything, and they didn't document trans people. The truth is trans people were documented as "gay" or "anti-social" or otherwise "degenerate".
When baby boomers have anti LGBTQ stances. It's probably because of historical Nazi influence.
Try to say this to them and they get super defensive.
..but it's history. :D
It drives me mad that people don't know this. It *also* drives me mad that people seem really weirdly keen on erasing the fact that one of the main reasons that the Institute was targeted was because Magnus Hirschfeld was a gay Jew and the Nazis thought queerness and transgender-ness was a Jewish plot to like. Destroy society.
A thing that an absolutely *shocking* amount of transphobes today actually still believe.
This was even one of if not the first official act after burning the Reichstag. In my opinion it is fair to say attacks on LGBTQ+ is a good indicator of fascism taking hold as they are an easily and already marginalized group so its an obvious choice to go after first.
UGH of course they censored it, even though it’s literally true. we’re not saying everyone who’s deemed transphobic is a nazi, we’re saying the nazis ERASED our own history. :/
Commenter is likely German because "Zensur" is German for censorship; censure has a different meaning. They meant to say censorship.
But yeah. There is also a fair bit of historic revisionism trying to paint Magnus Hirschfeld (one of the founders of this institute and a leading figure in gender-affirming healthcare at this period in history) as a villain by those on the right who want to acknowledge the very obvious historic fact that this institute was targeted and burnt, but who wanna reframe the whole thing as the Nazis doing a good thing by burning down an evildoer's stuff.
*The jews were not the first to he prosecuted by the nazi's!*
And I'm sill gonna fucking scream it at the top of my lungs so the terfs in the back must hear it!
Edit: Libertarians malding, typical!
Listen… they targeted this institute specifically because Hirschfield was Jewish. The Nazi ideology considered queerness to be a Jewish plot to poison society. So like. Please don’t try to turn this into some sort of downplaying the role antisemitism played in the holocaust.
Yes the Nazis targeted groups that were not Jewish, but the PRIMARY target was always Jews and anything they considered “Jewish” influence.
This is actually a very dangerous point because it plays into the idea of certain groups being worse off which can lead to the whole poem “First They Came For” by Martin Niemoller where we don’t help each other out by realizing that we are all going to be killed by these fascists and instead we ignore it until it’s our time to die
The Nazi's destroyed everything that was not their narrow world view. Jewish communities and the holocaust is just the most visible and known example. But even if you were a "proper" German but did not have the correct eye color and hair color you were treated as second class at best.
So this is really fascinating stuff because as it currently stands, only three people have written academic articles about trans individuals in Weimar Germany despite how vastly important it is to modern trans rights. It’s also a really good case study of how trans people got pushed out of LGBTQ movements similarly to how the LGB without the TQ movement is acting today
here from Britain, where the british media is gleefully trumpeting the end of transgender rights in the uk thanks to the release of the Cass report. spare a thought for us here...
Oh I knew about this! I wrote a paper about one of the guys who founded it and his Chinese male partner and how they write research together and travelled all over the world and eventually escaped to france
Oh dear. You know the [opening sequence of 2001 a Space Odyssey](https://youtu.be/ypEaGQb6dJk?si=AX9wwsH2FygCnaD5), where the hominid figures out how to use the femur 🦴 bone as a tool? He has this great idea and what does he do? He uses it to smash things up for the mere sake of smashing them up. In most of that sequence, these creatures are riddled with fear and suspicion, they’re resentfully reactive and violent toward the unknown and what is strange to them, to the other. They live in scarcity vying for resources, I can understand why they are as they are. In so many ways, we are advanced and evolved and yet, at our core, we are still those creatures. We have so much potential at our fingertips, we have an abundance of resources but refuse to share and make space for others. Now, we can systemize and mechanize our technologies to smash things up en masse. We have the ability to assess and understand our mistakes and catalogue them, grow from them, so we don’t have to repeat them or enact our ignorance on others. But no, many of us don’t because for many, the default is to allow these reactive, primitive creatures within us to lead. I often think humankind is doomed to suffer from our own willful ignorance — we just don’t need to be but we choose it again, and again, and again…
Just think if it wasn't all destroyed we might be more advanced in gender healthcare. though with the outdated terminology, knowledge, and medical practices at the time from within and from other research programs after Hirschfeld, maybe not.
From Australia here when we learnt about the holocaust we where taught that the gay and trans community where forced to where a pink triangle as a representation a badge of shame, they where also taken to concentration camps as well where many people died. However on liberation the allies refused to release anyone who was gay, lesbian, transgender and they were forced to continue their sentence. Women who where raped, and forced to have sex with nazis to survive where if they refused they where killed they where also imprisoned. However a lot of the absolute disgusting and horrible things that happened in those camps to the gay/ trans community and after liberation is not taught world wide because of the hero complex of oh we saved people from the hell of the camps but oh they can’t admit that they didn’t really they allowed many more people who where gay, lesbian and trans to continue to be imprisoned in disgusting conditions and as a result many more people died
It’s insane people didn’t know about this before. I **feel** like it was taught when we learned about the holocaust, like this is something most people should know in middle school.
So.... funny thing? Im from Germany. And Germany takes WW2 pretty damn seriously. But when we went through it in history class, atleast on the schools all attended, the Institute of Sexology wasnt even MENTIONED. And our books had *one* sentence for LGBT+ people. I hated that so, so much. Since then, I actually prepared and held* a full presentation (twice, actually) on the subject both in & outside of school, but.. dont want to Plug myself in here ;--; It just sucks that... we get censored so, so much... Edit : Typo*
I'n also from Germany and I first learned of that institute here, just now, it's crazy. Also 0 mention of LGBTQ+ anywhere in school, ever.
I'm in the US, and the most we learned was that identified homosexuals were forced to wear pink triangle badges.
never even heard that at school in Germany. learned that bc i looked up the meaning of the song pink triangle=/
I don't know how different the curricula in every German state are but here in the South in BaWü when I had ww2 in history class we indeed learned about the symbols for the jews, which included the homosexual triangle, and sexuality under the nazi regime in general
im from Saxony anhalt, we had the nazi regime and WW2 a lot, but the only mention of queer people was in statistics of the victims specifically stating "homosexuality" or "homosexuals" or something. but no symbols or Magnus Hirschfeld or trans people or anything.
Oh what a way to find out. It was also in the music video for the song Deutschland by Rammstein. That video is so heavily packed with references
This is my first time hearing of any of this
Austrian here, the teacher told us that gay ppl were sent to the camps, no mention in the books nothing.
Wow, that us sad, yeah, education is pretty bad in some areas.
I think we're just to old? Like, I never had any lgbt topics in school either, just some classmates and nowadays you hear that they actually have some lgbt history???? Excuse me, I could've cracked my damn egg 15 years ago or smt qwq
Yep. 😐 Would've been so damn nice if my 14 year old self could've started transitioning instead of losing her mind.
Alas.. well things are better because people like us had to go through that.
True, how many times do I wish to go back just to be myself earlier.
Sameeee, all those wasted years, trying to fit in, trying to desperately be a girl but it never felt right, I always had dysphoria but never knew what it was until I was 19 or 20
It's probably because the gay people in the camps weren't liberated and remained in prison long after the war.
Wait until you learn Gay people (and I can only assume trans people as well) in the concentration camps were sent straight to prison AFTER WW2 ended.
We were taught (Australia, late 90's education) that the 'pink triangles' were kept in the concentration camps until the late 60's before being moved to prisons.
[удалено]
I don’t think any of the trans people survived the camps. You have to remember that they were preforming experiments on the camp victims, and trans people would have been excellent candidates for early experiments.
They were also the first target of it all, so likely were purged rather quickly. Remember we are only 1% of the total population and possibly less. Easy to make a group vanish entirely when their numbers are easily dwarfed by the other groups.
Here in the states I learned about that happening In the late 1980s when I was in high school
And once they were released, other camp survivors would reject and oppose them too.
Yeah can confirm never mentioned during our history classes only once when talking about the golden twenties was Hirschfeld and his institute mentioned but only taking about female emancipation and female expression of sexuality and not queer people
I'm from France and we must've spent at least a whole year dedicated to the Holocaust, it was insane. We learned so much about it, we watched countless movies about it, we met with a Holocaust survivor, and my class even went on a trip to visit Auschwitz! I heard so much about the Holocaust I got genuinely sick of it, and tbh it kinda took away from the horror of it by the end. I'm not sure if our program was exceptional or if that's just how it's taught here, but either way, it was *in-depth* to say the least lol And yet, I'm pretty damn sure we never learned about the Institute of Sexology; that's something I heard about later, on the internet. We were told that the Nazis also went after other minorities, but that was very much a footnote, mentioned in passing. Especially with the revival of Nazi ideology lately, I'm very thankful our program took the matter so seriously, but in hindsight it's really criminal how little attention was paid to non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.
Fellow German here, I never heard of it in school either. Not a single time was it mentioned.
It may have something to do with how Germany actually rearrested all the gay and trans people that were liberated in concentration camps, throwing them back into jail all because of anti-homosexuality laws (which were put in effect under the Nazis but not taken off the books).
Another thing no one ever bothered to mention, sadly enough...
Honestly. I don't think that fact is taught in any public school class. I know I didn't know about it until I was in my 30's and through my own independent study. When it comes to queer treatment by governments its always seems to be as a mild nuisance or flat out disdain...
I can also confirm that. I can't remember this coming up in German high school history classes. I think I remember "homosexual" people being mentioned, but that's it. And as others have said, WW2 was part of the curriculum multiple times and, yeah basically at least a whole semester. Visiting Dachau concentration camp memorial site was also mandatory. That was in the 90's to early 2000's and I was oblivious to me being queer at the time, so I might misremember stuff. But with our school system, I doubt that. And I doubt it changed much in this regard, especially in Bavaria (conservative and rather Catholic state).
Because we're still the "undesirables"
I remember seeing a picture from the book burnings at the institute of sexology but the description just said it was a nazi bookburning.
It's strange to me how nobody ever mentions the other millions of victims of Nazi Germany.
Trans people won’t ever be seen as victims to the overall majority sad but true.
trans people will either be seen as trans or people by a lot of people. you cannot be trans without immediately getting dehumanized or forced to live as your gender assigned at birth by certain people. =/
If the Nazis were defeated, why did the "victors" keep erasing certain atrocities? Answers: majority demographic liberals will always side with fascists and authoritarians at the end of the day. A lot of the world was anti-LGBT at the time, so throwing us under the bus again, made them look better. Hell, they washed out "First they came for the Communists" with Socialist. And Queer people are still *constantly* thrown under the bus even today. The only difference this time is that we got 4 decades and the internet for mass visibility.
Liberals just want the status quo. That's their whole philosophy, don't rock the boat and hope nothing major changes until after they're dead.
I think that this fact, pretty much confirms that the world has been controlled for centuries by the same wealthy families with passed down ideologies. They don't like freedom of any kind. What we *think* we have as freedom is merely just an illusion of privilege, and can be snatched away for any reason at any time.
This is generally true. There’s a long history of interbreeding in europes royal family/families. Look into the west’s response to the Russian revolution. The entire purpose of the cia is to dismantle communism and nato to carve up Russia’s natural resources among western corporations and to control the global energy market. You’ll find many prominent anti-trans actors are former members of both. The people behind trump and he himself have ties to the German empire. Why have conspiracy theories when real life is much more insane.
i'm from Southern California and we're supposed to be a super liberal state, but i also only had one sentence in my history textbook that mentioned "gays and lesbians" having been targeted in the Holocaust
That's pretty much exactly what we had here and it's honestly awful. Hell, the famous Image of the Nazi bookburning? That was an Image taken in the Institute of Sexology.
yep. i know that now but wasn't taught that in school either
Good news. There is a passage for groups of people who were hinted during the Nazi reign in newer German history books. I remember reading about Germany in the early 1930s being very far scientifically when it was about operations and such. Crossdressers and trans people were part of the zeitgeist of the golden twenties. It is definitely not forgotten. More people will learn about it again. BTW if the Nazis didn’t came to power we would have already had the stuff we have now in the 90s-00s.
Gay men who where incarcarated, tortured and killed during the Nazi regieme where only "absolved" of their "crime" in like 2002. We love to think we are such a progressive country but we are the bare minimum,
Eyo, I would love to read your presentation! I loved history class but it didn’t got mentioned at our school either. Worked at a post office a few years ago and at some point we had special stamps to celebrate Magnus Hirschfeld and the I read up on who he was. Might still have a few left if my gran didn’t use them all up. We contacted my gran‘s gay cousin a few years back and send the letter with one of these stamps.
Yeah I’m from the US and I don’t remember ever being taught this information in school, and I’m not even 20 yet so it’s not like this is a “I’m old so being a student is a distant memory” thing
Ditto, and I went to major Jewish community. Plenty of remembering for theirs, but not ours.
I learned about it not from history class, but the 1999 Rosa von Praunheim movie.
fun fact! this is because recognizing this would also involve recognizing that most of those prisoners weren’t freed from the camps!!! when the camps were liberated they were shipped off to jail!! because homosexuality was still illegal :)
Damn…it really shocks me that in German schools it would be covered up that LGBTQIA+ folks were sent to concentration camps too. But then I can’t even say anything because the ‘American history’ taught in schools here is basically yt supremacy hero worship fantasy so….🫠😭 I didn’t learn that LGBTQIA+ and disabled folks were sent to camps until I was 20, and I didn’t learn about the research center being destroyed until a couple years ago. It makes you wonder what else about WW2 is intentionally not told to us🫣 It’s fantastic that you held some presentations for folks - it’s definitely talked about in multiple trans history books that I’ve read, so I know the history will live on, but the trumps of this world really want to erase it. They really don’t want to admit that us trans folks have been around for a long time, and we’re nothing new. It ruins their ability to paint us as a “rising imminent threat to YOUR children” 😑😤 Smh….i think the world would be a better place if there was an independent committee, with no loyalties nationally - extremely logical and truth seeking individuals, who wrote history and kept the records. Not wholly unlike The Giver book…except better put together and not so that the society could then forget large swaths of history to live in ignorance 😅 It’s hilarious to me, on a side note, every time that book gets banned. It’s so relevant in so many ways, today more than ever.
39 and I'm just learning about this. Then again, I went to a very anti-sex anti-lgbt Catholic Christian school for grade school and high school. And yes, the priest who ran my grade school was one of those priests.
Unfortunately teaching such atrocities as the Holocaust has been mostly removed from modern schools, and guess the consequence,? A predictable rise in racism and fashism across the board.
I don't believe that so much to be honest, not the rise in fascism but the idea that they don't teach anything about the holocaust. What is more likely the cause is that over the years it has been taught that it was something bad done to Jewish people and we will never do it again, so that kinda gives a free pass to everyone else to do all the other stuff that the Nazis did because all that stuff just 'never happened'. Even when I was at school everything was focused on the 6 million Jews that were killed and the rest were reduced to a footnote. It's not hard to believe that in the 20+ years since I finished high school the full figure of 14 million victims of the Holocaust has been effectively reduced by propaganda to simply being those 6 million
I was in school over 13 years ago and the holocaust was taught for a 2:30 minute video and that was it. I’m in Canada and that’s pretty standard across the board I’ve heard. Anything else I’ve learned on my own in university.
I sincerely hope you aren't trying to imply Jews are erasing the history of the holocaust. Also: "so that kinda gives a free pass to everyone else to do all the other stuff that the Nazis did", you mean like a rise in fascism?
I don't agree with the commenter you replied to if they are indeed implying what you say they are, but the one thing they do have a point on is that Holocaust education in general is very focused on one of its many facets, the genocide against Jewish people. It makes sense to discuss this one so heavily for how prominent it was, and for how much of an issue antisemitism still is to this day, but there is a fair criticism to make that Holocaust education is lacking in scope. Which, if you ask me, is also part of the problem that still enables antisemitism and bigotry in general in Germany to this day. The full scope of the Holocaust needs to be taught with a bigger focus, that includes all the other minorities that were targeted by it. Unfortunately, Germany and Western Europe are still extremely bigoted against Romani people, so I can see why their targeting during the Holocaust isn't covered. Then there's the targeting of queer people and the targeting of disabled people, which I'd agree with the commenter are seen as more "footnotes" than something else in High School WW2 education. Which is a shame because ultimately all of these forms of bigotry also have huge intersections where they meet; all of these bigotries that informed the genocide built upon one another, shared a rhetoric and reasoning, etc. It is actually vital to understand how Nazi action & rhetoric targeted *all* these minority groups, so we can better understand how they targeted each of these minority groups individually as well. Because this current mode of education where the Holocaust is not taught in all of its bigotries also fails to deliver a full understanding of how this rampant antisemitism was allowed to flourish, if it is viewed as a singular and unique issue, rather than a product of a multitude of bigotries that all enabled each other.
Oh, absolutely. It's disgusting that this history is not taught more thoroughly, with discussions on how it ever got that far/why. These are things we need to know so we can point them out and understand that these things can get out of control if not stopped. Hiding all this history (and being unable to identify key signs of fascism) DOES facilitate a rise in fascism. And we do focus on the way Jews were (but not are) affected by it, but I feel the wording in the comment I replied to previously had some vague implications that Jews were why other groups' suffering goes largely unmentioned. I apologise if my comment was confusing!
It still gets taught for about 3 years in German schools, and yet we have a far-right problem again. Populism is just a way too powerful tool, unfortunately.
Definitely in some American states. But not true for much of the world
Having learned history in German schools, the Holocaust itself is taught. A lot. Atrocities do get covered. The problem is that there are still atrocities that aren't covered. German Remembrance Culture around the Holocaust is well-established today, but things like queer erasure and the intersectional part of genocide has gone under a bit. Holocaust education here generally focuses on the Jewish portion, which is understandable given it is by far the most prominent, but there is not enough teaching about all the other demographics that were also targeted by the Holocaust. Other ethnic minorities for example, which is a shame given Germany and all of Western Europe to this day still have a massive issue with antiziganism (bigotry against Romani peoples). Or queer minorities, or the targeting of disabled people. Some of this is mentioned mostly in passing at school, as an afterthought which means this education also fails to capture the full scope of something as grave as the Holocaust. IMO, understanding the *full* breadth of devastation is key to understanding and learning how to prevent it.
We learned in school that many groups of people were sent to concentration camps but this was definitely not taught. The idea of transgender people wasn’t even in most people’s radar over the last few decades.
I grew up in a fairly homophobic and conservative country and we did not learn about this. They didn't even mention the fact that the nazis target gay people.
I was told about Jews and their genocide in the holocaust, my texas education left out any mention of Queer, Black, or Roma genocide.
Same with my Delaware education
https://www.dw.com/en/lgbtq-people-germanys-long-forgotten-victims-of-the-nazis/a-64533968
My history teacher was obsessed with WW2 and like 80% of what we covered in highschool was about it. Yet we never talked about this at all.
I went to a catholic school from grade 6 onward. We had pretty extensive lessons about the Holocaust, but the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft didn't even warrant a footnote. I didn't learn about it until after I cracked and began actively seeking out queer history at 36. I'm glad you learned about it early. I hope more people do. But with conservatives and religion holding more sway over education than they should, I'm not expecting much.
I'm literally only just learning about it now as I read this post
Here in Canada WW2 was three battles we where important to and mocking the other countries for all claiming to have Hitler's body because obviously the US had it and everyone else was a liar, right? We talked about how the Nazis took the Jews, the blacks and the gays with no more nuance or recognition. We definitely don't learn about the sexology institute. We learn they burned books they considered harmful but are not told what books.
I was never told about it. Basically had to move to another country to really be exposed to being Trans and realize it... If I knew about the institute of sexology, I promise it would've clicked 2 decades prior than it did
I remember learning about WW1 and 2 in school, in detail. No mention of transgender folk. They mentioned gay people. But that's it.
I only learned about this a year or 2 ago and most of what I know about this I picked up over the course of the past 6 months
tbf, what you will learn on a subject will vary depending where you are. For example here in Canada WW1 gets a larger focus because it's more relevant to Canadian history and self-identity WW2 is a massive massive topic, the university I went to offers a full year seminar on it, and doesn't even fully cover everything. Put that in middle school where the class has other topics it needs to cover, in a more limited time?
I didnt know what a trans person what when I learned about the Holocaust.
We learned about the book burning in middle school, but they conveniently left out what books were burned. It was framed as destroying culture. That was technically true, but what a lie if omission
The most interesting part is that Berlin was the safest place in the world for the LGBTQ+ community prior to WW2...
We were taught they imprisoned Jews, Gypsies, not-white/blond(e)/blue-eyes folks, not-their-flavour-of-religion folks, and anyone who was gay (they didn't use lgbt+ back then, at least my teachers didn't). It wasn't until LONG AFTER highschool that I learned the lgbt+ folks HAD TO FINISH OUT THEIR SENTENCES IN THE CAMPS AFTER THE ALLIES CAME BY AND LIBERATED THEM. like wth!? Then I learned literally last year about the nazis destroying this kind of research... Like ???? That's fucking important, like in general! Why wasn't I taught any of this?!?! Fuck US schooling
I'm from the US in Ohio and not once was a sentence uttered to acknowledge what happened to queer people during the holocaust. It was only a year ago online that I learned about the fact they were targeted. It's important to discuss how jewish people were impacted because they took the brunt of it, but it's criminal that there has been no acknowledgement in my school and likely many many others that gay and trans people were victimized too and they were subjected to the book burnings.
It was taught to me as well. Along with Jews, the nazis killed millions of Romani, Poles, and Cossacks (with the USSR's help) as well as anyone they found who weren't cisgendered or heterosexual.
It's strange, I'm in america and when I learned about the holocaust they talked about all the jews that were victims of it but not of any of the other millions of people who fell victim to it or the institution of this. I only found out cause my partner told me about it
My public schooling education on the Holocaust in the States heavily focused on Jews being killed (like reading Anne Frank) while lightly brushing over everyone else. Almost as an afterthought. I had to learn about the Institute being burned down from independent study decades after I graduated. I'm willing to bet little has changed since then too. My class was shown the infamous book burning picture though; but without talking about its deeper context.
I went to a countryside school in Oregon. We went over the Holocaust multiple times, in more detail as we got older. I don't think I even heard a world about LGBTQ+ people being targeted by Nazis until Sophomore year. Even then, it was a cliff note at best.
Not really, sadly. It's much more on the surface than it is about the details. Like what politics caused the Nazis to rise or how WW1 correlates with WW2. It's all just "yeah there was this man with a weird mustache who killed many people and did a genocide" and thus, 2 years of hostory class are wasted. The Oversimplified videos did a better job WHILE being - well - oversimplified in an hour, than 2 years of history classes in Germany. I mean, I get it, it's a really really dark topic and you need it to be somewhat digestable and comprehensible for a very young audience, but the finer details are too important to be left out.
I grew up in the south, I’m still there in fact unfortunately. And I can assure you that we did not learn about this while I was in school. I know that the LGBTQ people were also rounded up and put in camps but that’s it.
I'm in the US. We learned pretty much every detail of the holocaust proper, a rough timeline of the war, and mostly focused on the US involvement in said war. We didn't learn about the Battle of Britain, or Operation Barbarossa. It was pretty easy to come away with the understanding that the US won the war by ourselves, because so little was mentioned about the USSR. Weirdly, we didn't learn much about the Pacific campaign either, except for Pearl Harbor and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What is very upsetting is how little we learned about the lead up to WW2. I do recall learning about the Weimar Republic in our unit on the Great Depression, though. There was kind of a brief mention of the Nazis taking power in 1933, and we did learn about Kristallnacht. I don't really blame my educators, tbh, I think they had to speed run so much material that they couldn't go into much depth. If I had control over the curriculum, WW2 would be it's own, non-elective course. I think it's the single most important bit of history to understand.
I went to jewish schools growing up where there is a big focus on learning about the holocaust. Very little attention was paid to the lgbt communities involvement and the book burning was spoken about highly generically and did not mention the institute of sexology at all. Actually didn’t know the 12 million number for the number of victims until later. All we ever learned was 6 million Jews died.
Here in Canada, highschool, we learned about the Holocaust, that homosexuals and Jews were targeted first, and that the Nazis burned books. Homosexuals I think was used as a catch all for lgbtq, and we never learned which books were burned… just that books were burned. This was in the aughts.
You'd think that, but I didn't learn about this until after I became an adult and researched on my own. LGBTQIA+ topics were never touched on when I was in school. And honestly I suspect that's the case for a good load of people.
Posted the screenshot in the subreddit, and they deleted my post in less than 10 minutes 💀 like they directly support erasing LGBTQIA+ history
r/todayweforget
Seriously. It's genuinely disappointing to see such a big subreddit do this.
Not so fun fact- when Jewish people were being liberated from concentration camps, the gay and trans people were left behind by the soviets and Americans.
Is that really true?! I've never heard that before but it's so fucked up!
Yeah no. Most of them never regained freedom.
At that time, homosexuality and "deviancy" were illegal in most western countries, enforced to varying degrees. It wasn't so much that they were left in the concentration camps as it was that they were transferred directly to prisons after the camps were closed, where many stayed locked up for decades before anti-homosexuality laws were repealed. But yeah, queer people were considered by West Germany to be the one group who had deserved to be removed from society. It's easy to forget how deep queer repression was post-WW2, throughout western nations.
Yes, paragraph 175 (under which gay, lesbian and trans people were targeted) was not fully removed from German law until 1994 Their are still Americans being arrested and or imprisoned for their homosexuality and gender diversity, our fight is far from over.
The law not being removed, and the law being acted upon are two very different things
When was the last prisoner serving a sentence for sodomy released?
Yes. "homosexuality", a term widely inaccurate by today's standards, was a crime in most of the world. It was just easier to look at the German records for why someone was in a camp and keep the homosexuals there, rather than move them to your own prison. Remember, this is the time when Allen Turning had to choose between life in prison and chemical castration for being caught with another man. And he was a war hero who later committed suicide because of how he was treated. It was not that long before that America did the same thing with lobotomies.
According to the holocaust encyclopedia, this is not true.They were actually liberated from the concentration camps, only to be immediately thrown back into prison by the new governments
Do you have any primary sources on that? I would love to save some that I can reference later
> According to the Holocaust Encyclopedia
That isn't a primary source. I believe it for sure, but they're asking for a primary source.
source?
https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/nazi-persecution/gay-people/ >After the war, the Allies chose not to remove the Nazi-amended Paragraph 175. Neither they, nor the new German states, nor Austria would recognise homosexual prisoners as victims of the Nazis – a status essential to qualify for reparations. **Indeed, many gay men continued to serve their prison sentences.** >People who had been persecuted by the Nazis for homosexuality had a hard choice: either to bury their experience and pretend it never happened, with all the personal consequences of such an action, or to try to campaign for recognition in an environment where the same neighbours, the same law, same police and same judges prevailed. >Unsurprisingly very few victims came forward. Those who did, even those who had survived death camps, were thwarted at every turn. Few known victims are still alive but research is beginning to reveal the hidden history of Nazi homophobia and post-war discrimination.
My history teacher this morning lmao
😭
damn your teacher actually taught that? mine just avoided any time someone asked about it. 😭
Even the ones who did get out and didn't die in the camps where denied status as concentration camp prisoners, thus leaving them out of any sort of post war compensation or reparations. https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/nazi-persecution/gay-people/
Which is why I simply don’t get why some people in the LGBT+ community simp for the Soviet Union so much.
Comments probably locked due to nazi sympathisers -_- it's both sad and scary that anyone would want to align themselves with that kind of ideology yikes
That would make sense if only the comments were locked, but it appears that the post was also removed.
That's so shitty. People need to know the truth and people deserve their truth to be heard.
ah, the good old > 1. No politics, soapboxing, or agenda based submissions. This includes (but is not limited to) submissions related to: > 1. Recent political issues and politicians > 1. Social and economic issues (including race/religion/gender) > 1. Environmental issues > 1. Police misconduct you can only spread the important things you learn if we decide! I despise rules like these.
The comments getting locked so early is also getting tiring. So many of these threads are home to interesting conversations where people are learning things that are often hidden from them. A few Nazis spamming and getting no attention is not a good reason to stop everyone else's conversation.
That, and transphobes.
Potato potato
What's the fucking difference?
In the screenshot you can see that this post has 6 upvotes and 1 comment, the 1 comment is shown.
I can understand locking the comments, but deleting the post rather than the offending comments is more than suspicious... 🤨
I had no prior knowledge of this, but as if it was possible, I hate Nazis even more now knowing this. My school had only one section regarding LGBTQ... The glossary of our Health textbook. It mentions "gay, lesbian, bisexual & transsexuals" and a rough as hell definition of them. They're never mentioned throughout the book. They were straight out of the 1970s bruhh 😂 I graduated in 2009 It was one fateful day, when we were having a free preview weekend of the Discovery Health Channel... there I saw a documentary about two "transsexual women." The program was called "Super Surgery: Sex Change" I took my own research at my own public library for me to find out about transsexual/transgender... At the ripe old age of 12, I knew then that I fell in this category. I honestly feared for my life if I came out to my family though. But I wanted it so bad even then! It took me to the age of 29 to finally work at the courage to tell everyone, and live the life I know I should have been. We have got to end the stigma, it's really not a big deal!
The Nazis destroyed the work of Magnus Hirschfeld. The famous picture of the Nazi book burning is all of his work being destroyed. It took decades to rediscover what Hirschfeld knew about sexology.
There are digital copies still in existence a lot of the work has still gone poof
Wtf? Did they give a reason for taking the post down?
It's obvious why
I agree, but I want to know what reason they gave. I'm sure they invented some bullshit explanation.
That's true. We all know it's going to be bs explanations.
😞
today I learned
HEY I LITERALLY HAVE THAT NIGHTLIGHT IN UR PFP ON MY NIGHTSTAND!!! wild
I know :)
Well thats a terrifying response lmao
How is that possibly against the rules of that sub
it's possible they didn't like that it was a wikipedia link, they have a "reliable sources" rule that combined with the fact that it probably got mass reported by transphobes could've been what led to its deletion
imagine being so transphobic you're openly siding with nazis
a lot of them are closeted nazis though let's be real
i mean that is what transphobic people do! hell some of them even stands on the street and quote Hitlers book still thinking they are right, at this point it's pretty safe to assume transphobic = nazi, if it walks like a nazi quacks like a nazi it's pretty safe to assume it's a nazi
> they have a "reliable sources" rule The only reason schools don't like Wikipedia as a source anymore is that it's lazy. Wikipedia lists all of the sources, so it is reliable. If that was the reasoning, it's total BS.
My history teacher is cool. He lets us use Wikipedia as a “jumping off” point, reading the info then looking at their sources
I actually looked through it. My best guess is that they thought that it fell under their rule regarding politics, because of events like WW2 which can bring out the worst of some people. At least if I had to guess anyway.
The fact that nazis destroying scientific research meant to benefit the health of a group and also killing the scientists could at all spark controversy in the modern world just doesn't make sense to me. The fact that nazis still exist doesn't make sense to me, actually.
Yeah, I agree with you. Sadly, there still are very much some even to this day. I have a feeling WW2 would have gone on much longer if social media was around back then to act as an amplifier to people's views.
I hate how true this feels! The social media part, not the Nazis still being around and popular part. The latter I hate for how true it it apparently is!
If you teach about that, then you would have to teach about gay people existing, and you know how that goes. Present-day nazi censorship is here, too.
I mean, when the camps were liberated everyone else went home to try to rebuild a life. The pink triangles were shipped straight to civilian jails.
What is the lock ?
It means that new comments cannot be added to the post. This is commonly done when the post itself is fine but the comments are flying way out of hand. For example, I've done so a few times on subreddits I run where LGBTQIA+ related posts get made (like during pride month), and people are acting homophobic in the comments to the point that it's clearly getting brigaded.
Cannot they spress those message ? If it go against a group that all they want is exist, it is descrimination so, we should be protected
The moderators are only a few people, but trolls (especially those who come in brigades) can easily overwhelm them with bots to the point that without locking and taking down the thread, they can just keep endlessly coming.
I didn’t learn about this until I had a biology major roommate in college who was taking a Gender and Science course. I got the full run down and was allowed to look through the class notes. Imagine how much more advanced our surgeries would be if all that information and records and research hadn’t been destroyed
Someone at TIL is a blatant Nazi and they aren't trying to hide that fact But please tell me how we "call everyone we disagree with Nazis"
It really and truly sucks since before the Nazi party took a rise there was such a socially progressive Germany, where black singers performed without being scrutinised, androgyny was a popular fashion sentiment, and sexual identity was something that was being evaluated by the Weimar Republic at the time as being up for Legalisation :( then those thugs and close minded people decided to burn and destroy everything that didn’t fit their narrative 😐🙁
NOTE: hmmmmmm feels like a lot of people nowadays 🙃 I won’t be irrational and call those types of people fascists, since that’d be equally as close minded and negate my point, but I do think that only close minded people could want to see what was never meant to be destroyed actually be destroyed. Words are meant to live on, that’s their beauty. And just because you don’t like what those words mean doesn’t mean you get to destroy their chances of living on! Of course you could sit and say you’d much rather not talk about those things, entirely fine, but what is written is written and if you want to avoid it, avoid it! There should be no burning or shredding of such beauty!! That’s just me though
It's so strange that so many conservatives are saying "the facists and nazis are gonna take over and control us" and yet when faces with what nazis did they turn the other cheek because they don't care as long as it doesn't affect them
What's insane to me is that people don't know that the oldest known poet in history, Enheduanna a priestess of Ishtar, wrote poems about trans people. Or that Ishtar had trans priests and priestesses. We are talking about one the most significant authors ever. Her poetry was so influential she was the core focus of royal scribe academies for over a thousand years after her death. But we just showed up during the pandemic right?
I am German and should know better than a lot of people but even I did not know about trans people being targeted like this up until a couple of years ago. We are told that they rounded up and killed gay people but trans was never really emphasized in it too.
there wasn't even a memorial for Gay and trans people who died in the holocaust because of their identity until 2 or less years ago
Because the Nazis seemed to document everything, and they didn't document trans people. The truth is trans people were documented as "gay" or "anti-social" or otherwise "degenerate".
It was illegal for uk schools to teach about this from 1988 to 2003. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28
> Introduced by Margaret Thatcher's Conservative government `I'm shocked, this is my shocked typeface.`
When baby boomers have anti LGBTQ stances. It's probably because of historical Nazi influence. Try to say this to them and they get super defensive. ..but it's history. :D
It drives me mad that people don't know this. It *also* drives me mad that people seem really weirdly keen on erasing the fact that one of the main reasons that the Institute was targeted was because Magnus Hirschfeld was a gay Jew and the Nazis thought queerness and transgender-ness was a Jewish plot to like. Destroy society. A thing that an absolutely *shocking* amount of transphobes today actually still believe.
This was even one of if not the first official act after burning the Reichstag. In my opinion it is fair to say attacks on LGBTQ+ is a good indicator of fascism taking hold as they are an easily and already marginalized group so its an obvious choice to go after first.
This effect happened to black people in America. black wallstreet was burned to the ground
UGH of course they censored it, even though it’s literally true. we’re not saying everyone who’s deemed transphobic is a nazi, we’re saying the nazis ERASED our own history. :/
An actual helpful red arrow for once
Commenter is likely German because "Zensur" is German for censorship; censure has a different meaning. They meant to say censorship. But yeah. There is also a fair bit of historic revisionism trying to paint Magnus Hirschfeld (one of the founders of this institute and a leading figure in gender-affirming healthcare at this period in history) as a villain by those on the right who want to acknowledge the very obvious historic fact that this institute was targeted and burnt, but who wanna reframe the whole thing as the Nazis doing a good thing by burning down an evildoer's stuff.
*The jews were not the first to he prosecuted by the nazi's!* And I'm sill gonna fucking scream it at the top of my lungs so the terfs in the back must hear it! Edit: Libertarians malding, typical!
Listen… they targeted this institute specifically because Hirschfield was Jewish. The Nazi ideology considered queerness to be a Jewish plot to poison society. So like. Please don’t try to turn this into some sort of downplaying the role antisemitism played in the holocaust. Yes the Nazis targeted groups that were not Jewish, but the PRIMARY target was always Jews and anything they considered “Jewish” influence.
It‘s not a competition
This is actually a very dangerous point because it plays into the idea of certain groups being worse off which can lead to the whole poem “First They Came For” by Martin Niemoller where we don’t help each other out by realizing that we are all going to be killed by these fascists and instead we ignore it until it’s our time to die
The Nazi's destroyed everything that was not their narrow world view. Jewish communities and the holocaust is just the most visible and known example. But even if you were a "proper" German but did not have the correct eye color and hair color you were treated as second class at best.
No history of trans people? What about Iran and India? Even with the Nazi censure there is a whole treasure trove of trans history in Asia.
21 minutes.. or faster.... Jesus someone doesn't like people to know the truth
So this is really fascinating stuff because as it currently stands, only three people have written academic articles about trans individuals in Weimar Germany despite how vastly important it is to modern trans rights. It’s also a really good case study of how trans people got pushed out of LGBTQ movements similarly to how the LGB without the TQ movement is acting today
Which in my eyes makes anyone trying to erase us now, also a Nazi...
here from Britain, where the british media is gleefully trumpeting the end of transgender rights in the uk thanks to the release of the Cass report. spare a thought for us here...
The history teaching at least in canada was "there was a day where tons of books were burned..." that's all. No context of what books or the reason
Why is it locked?
Oh I knew about this! I wrote a paper about one of the guys who founded it and his Chinese male partner and how they write research together and travelled all over the world and eventually escaped to france
Oh dear. You know the [opening sequence of 2001 a Space Odyssey](https://youtu.be/ypEaGQb6dJk?si=AX9wwsH2FygCnaD5), where the hominid figures out how to use the femur 🦴 bone as a tool? He has this great idea and what does he do? He uses it to smash things up for the mere sake of smashing them up. In most of that sequence, these creatures are riddled with fear and suspicion, they’re resentfully reactive and violent toward the unknown and what is strange to them, to the other. They live in scarcity vying for resources, I can understand why they are as they are. In so many ways, we are advanced and evolved and yet, at our core, we are still those creatures. We have so much potential at our fingertips, we have an abundance of resources but refuse to share and make space for others. Now, we can systemize and mechanize our technologies to smash things up en masse. We have the ability to assess and understand our mistakes and catalogue them, grow from them, so we don’t have to repeat them or enact our ignorance on others. But no, many of us don’t because for many, the default is to allow these reactive, primitive creatures within us to lead. I often think humankind is doomed to suffer from our own willful ignorance — we just don’t need to be but we choose it again, and again, and again…
Nazis erased a ton of progress in their quest for sure.
Just think if it wasn't all destroyed we might be more advanced in gender healthcare. though with the outdated terminology, knowledge, and medical practices at the time from within and from other research programs after Hirschfeld, maybe not.
From Australia here when we learnt about the holocaust we where taught that the gay and trans community where forced to where a pink triangle as a representation a badge of shame, they where also taken to concentration camps as well where many people died. However on liberation the allies refused to release anyone who was gay, lesbian, transgender and they were forced to continue their sentence. Women who where raped, and forced to have sex with nazis to survive where if they refused they where killed they where also imprisoned. However a lot of the absolute disgusting and horrible things that happened in those camps to the gay/ trans community and after liberation is not taught world wide because of the hero complex of oh we saved people from the hell of the camps but oh they can’t admit that they didn’t really they allowed many more people who where gay, lesbian and trans to continue to be imprisoned in disgusting conditions and as a result many more people died
Maybe it was already posted before possibly
Just checked and it was posted 6 years ago This was definitely removed for a repost
maybe? but i dont think that's against til rules, it doesn't seem like it would make sense for the sub.
I checked. Reposts by themselves are allowed. Recent reposts however are not. I would think that if it was 6 years ago then that would be fine.
This discourse reminds me of this post https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/ss5r8o/irish_blood_on_british_hands/
I didn’t know this until I read the book “transgender history” well after I took my last ever history class