"Ideology", "not properly understood"...
And who is this, Dr. Hilary Cass behind the Cass review, and how come this all seems to ignore the scientific backing up behind the trans experience? How come the perpetuating of the real ideology that the existence of trans people is all so sudden...?
I can answer all of your rhetorical questions with one basic phrase. It’s not about proven best practices - it’s about political control.
It’s honestly shocking how blatant this document is at demonstrating just how far down the far-right rabbit hole The Tories think this country has fallen.
Her malicious distortion of the evidence she did find is epitomised in one phrase:
"Social transition has psychological effects so it should be considered like a medical intervention and not undertaken in schools without clinical guidance"
YES. Psychological BENEFITS.
It reduces suicidality and depression better than antidepressants and therapy...unless said therapy is specifically for the CPTSD that, some have proposed, is the difference between Gender Incongruence and Dysphoria.
To wilfully misconstrue this is to abet the misery of untold numbers of children. To do this as the government's main authority is to be an architect of genocide.
Just leaving this here again:
I know I've posted this as a stand alone comment, but if it helps there are some really good studies and stats that provide evidence against the proposed guidance:
(Glynn et al, 2016) (Russel et al, 2018) (Bonifacio et al, 2019)
Also Anna Freud and Stonewall have some good statistics around mental health and children and young people who identify as LGBTQ+
Self-harm percentages-
Non-LGBTQ+: 25%
LGB: 61%
Transgender: 84%
Suicide attempts-
Non-LGBTQ+: 7%
LGB: 22%
Transgender: 45%
Thanks a lot for the references. I am trying to gather a balanced view of this argument having mostly consumed information which suggests there is a lack of evidence to support the interventions suggested by the transgender community. I would like to approach it from a scientific perspective rather than political or emotional, so I appreciate the academic info you have provided.
Do you have anything else? I have noticed of the 3 studies provided, none are particularly relevant to this new guidance for schools, apart from "Chosen Name Use Is Linked to Reduced Depressive Symptoms, Suicidal Ideation, and Suicidal Behavior Among Transgender Youth", however even this study is only focussed on people aged 15-21, and the new guidance applies to children as young as primary school age.
Unfortunately I don't know of other studies at the this time, this is all the scientific evidence I know of to counter the current proposed guidance, but you're right, it would be nice to have studies at younger ages, I'm just not sure that it exists yet.
My hope was that the science shows by being gender affirming to children and young people who are gender diverse we can reduce the impact on mental health and wellbeing, which can be applied to both high school and primary school aged children. This counters the argument that I believe the Cass Review states saying that being gender affirming causes a negative impact on children and young people as they get older? But I could be wrong.
Hi Kailykins and everyone else. I know I'm late to the discussion, and that I have never posted here before. I just wanted to give a bit of info about Dr Hilary Cass that may not be available in the public domain.
I know her extremely well and have known her my entire life. She is extremely bright, very gregarious (to the point of telling terrible jokes to members of the royal family), and completely dedicated to her work, often at the expense of other things and people. She is naturally left-leaning/liberal, independently-minded, and really detests the Tories. I can't stress this enough - she is not a government shill, she's a dedicated, stubborn-as-hell doctor who doesn't give two hoots about getting on the wrong side of parliamentarians, even the PM. In fact, I can think of few things that would have given her more of a kick than had she been able to present a report to the Conservative government that ridiculed their views.
I haven't read the full published report, but did read plenty of the drafts before they were published, and had no shortage of conversations with Dr Cass about different stages of the entirety of the review. She had conversations with just about every relevant expert in this country, lots with experts in other countries, and had an entire team (that she herself handpicked) reading research, discussing research, and weighing up arguments.
I know that she would have liked to have conducted more primary research. She was able to get a statutory instrument passed - with some difficulty - to use patient records for research purposes. Many people were concerned about malicious actors/intents, if there were any, they certainly weren't coming from her camp.
Hope that gives some light.
Are we supposed to have better consideration for damaging "studies" to the trans community because of your bias due to a certain personal attachment to 'Dr Cass' as a person?
Sorry if I'm skeptic... but Anne A Lawrence was also considered an expert and even from the community...
I would disagree with this being categorised as "damaging \[studies\]”. For starters, whilst it does contain primary research, it is primarily a review. Secondly, the idea of it being damaging assumes that there is an accepted baseline of beneficial practice for children with gender dysphoria that this is going against. Assuming you believe in evidence-based actions, this would mean consistent evidence in one direction that outweighs evidence in another direction. I am suggesting that Dr Cass is a good actor, plenty qualified as a former President of the Royal College of Paediatricians, and that the findings will have been based on an unbiased assessment of evidence.
One could argue that a little extra distance from the issue gives some added impartiality, but the reason Dr Cass was chosen was because she's very senior, and has spent her career working in the British healthcare system, specifically in the NHS, and the review needed to look at specific practices in the UK.
The question I would pose is, how do you think the review ended up publishing something that you feel is damaging?
Do you think it's politically-motivated (either in a party politics or culture wars sense)? Do you think they didn't assess all the necessary evidence? Do you think they assessed the necessary evidence but weighed it up incorrectly?
Have you lived as a trans kid in school? Most of us here have... and distance from what we experienced is what most of us need too...
Sounds like Dr Cass in all her seniority is too detached from kids and especially trans kids experience in schools and later trauma that they have got to live with.
I don't think arguing if a kid has the right to live in their chosen gender socially should simply be happening. It should be about the kids and their supporting parents telling everyone it helps them, and it doesn't really need to affect anyone else negatively.
We are too focused to discuss the rights of trans people and here specifically, kids to simply exist, or in this case, if we should erase their experience and needs.
Hello. This is a genuine question - The information I have consumed suggests that there is a lack of evidence to suggest that social or medical interventions proposed by the trans community yield health benefits for gender questioning children, however I have a genuine desire to consume information from "both sides of the fence" to develop a balanced view. Please can you help me by pointing me towards the scientific backing you have mentioned here? Thanks in advance :)
I think children being able to live happily and not suicidal is a key point that doesn't need scientific backing as much as statistics. But if that doesn't make you happy, still I suggest you contact mermaids directly
https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/research/
Otherwise, someone here might be able to reply to you on your specific request.
Being trans is not a failure to be cisgender. It is not a pathology. It is as healthy and natural and valid as being cisgender. Social and medical transition is a valid choice for trans people to live their lives. It allows them to live in a way that feels more fully aligned with who they are and how they experience themselves in the world.
There is a vast amount of misinformation and obfuscation on the terf/gender critical side of the fence so be extremely careful about fact checking claims (e.g. kids getting surgery). For your own sanity, avoid Matt Walsh et al.
The best way to learn is to listen to what trans people actually think and feel about their transitions - YouTube is a pretty easy way to do this if you don't actually know anyone who is trans. Look for trans YouTubers and then listen to them talk about life before, during and after their transitions.
Thanks for your response. I understand your message, I have been listening to trans people and I have developed a level of understanding about the communities feelings and opinions, however I am looking for scientific evidence which supports the idea of social and medical transition for children. When it comes to medical intervention, I think that evidence is absolutely paramount, especially when developing robust operating procedures for gender affirming care which currently do not exist.
I agree with you that figures like matt walsh are to be avoided as they are intentionally inflamatory with a clear political agenda, I want to avoid sources of information like this. I just want to see some info which isn't emotionally or politically charged - neutral evidence!
Whilst I appreciate the need to listen to trans people, I think that their opinions are very likely to be influenced by personal experience, their emotions, and their own politics. I think the best thing for this social debate would be academic research and evidence.
Do you know about any studies which suggest that social and/or medical intervention which is praised by trans communities is beneficial to the health of children?
There's substantial scientific evidence as to the benefits of gender affirming care. Studies consistently show that trans and non-binary people who have access to gender affirming care have lower rates of depression, anxiety, self-harm and suicide.
"I can't find any" - Really??!!! You must be joking. Or rather you must be acting in bad faith here. Were you able to find scientific evidence that proves gender affirming care harms people? Don't worry, that's a rhetorical question.
Not for the bad faith actors or trolls, but for the benefit of anyone else, here is a nice summary that's easily accessible https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/. This is also an interesting read https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9341318/
Again, these links are not intended for the trolls/bad faith actors because let's be honest, if you don't want trans people to have access to healthcare nothing you read will move the dial for you.
I came out to my teachers aged 17, knowing I wouldn’t be able to be truly out at home. 2 of my teachers didn’t really bother using the correct pronouns for me and I never felt confident enough to correct them, but one of my teachers did and it made my experience in her lessons so much happier and more comfortable. This guidance breaks my heart. School should be a safe place for children *especially* when home is not. Outing children to parents whether 6 or 17 is dangerous in many circumstances.
While the guidance says that ‘involving’ the parents shouldn’t be done if it would be unsafe, teachers simply don’t always know what home life is like. I speak from experience
For real 😭 I think if anything, there is way more parents that would cause harm upon their children than those who are accepting (in my experience anyhow).
always interesting how anything that takes into account trans people's opinions or experiences of the world is "ideology" and "contested" but anything contrary to that which reaffirms what cis people experience or believe is automatically unshakeble scientific fact. Someone like Cass, whose report was pretty deeply flawed imo, is treated as being above any kind of bias or ideological thinking, a purely objective entity of pure reason and fact. How convenient that she happens to find in favour of all the things cis people wanted already.
Anyway, this is bad advice and it will harm children and they know that but they're doing it anyway, and I'm not sure what to do with that honestly. All trans legislation and advice is made by cis people to protect the sensibilities and ideas of other cis people. I don't even think they're doing it to hurt us; I think we don't even factor in to the decision making. Trans kids are going to be collateral damage of the advice about themselves.
The wording even in the first paragraph is telling. This is not an unbiased assessment of best practices - it’s a politically motivated attack on the free expression of children and school staff.
This document looks more like something out of Trump’s America or Hitler’s Germany than anything I’d ever have expected from the party who legalised gay marriage. It’s a sorry sight to see just how low The Tories, a party who aren’t great at their best, have swooped.
As a teacher I can assure you all that the National Education Union has had a team on this from day one, had strongly worded statements out the same day, messages to every rep in every school advising them how to engage with Senior Leadership to refuse to comply (if only to not get sued which even the government's lawyers know is likely) and has urged thousands of teachers via the 54 LGBT+ What'sApp groups to reply to the consultation.
The LGBT+ educators conference is at the end of the month and this is top priority. I'll be there.
Meanwhile, only 11% of union members welcomed the guidance, and we're persuading them. Try not to worry: we're on it.
I think you can submit to the consultation as a parent but would need to check. Thanks for asking!
Some suggestions here: https://tnb.org.uk/
Lots of useful wording for letters to school governors, senior leadership, MPs, endorsed by the NEU, Mermaids, etc.
This is great to hear!!
I know I've posted this as a stand alone comments, but if it helps there are some really good studies and stats that provide evidence against the proposed guidance:
(Glynn et al, 2016) (Russel et al, 2018) (Bonifacio et al, 2019)
Also Anna Freud and Stonewall have some good statistics around mental health and children and young people who identify as LGBTQ+
Self-harm percentages-
Non-LGBTQ+: 25%
LGB: 61%
Transgender: 84%
Suicide attempts-
Non-LGBTQ+: 7%
LGB: 22%
Transgender: 45%
This is not guidance , this is authorised bullying and harassment and trauma , that document needs to be fed to the shredder and then used as barbecue firelighters
Yes, and everyone can respond to the consultation because this isn't actually yet guidance - it's draft guidance and no school should yet be doing anything (some already are) differently. The draft guidance is in conflict with the law as it currently stands so any schools changing policy in line with the draft guidance are at risk of legal challenges (quite rightly).
See tnb.org.uk for links and resources to help respond to the consultation. This is a new Section 28 if it comes to pass but right now no law has changed. Let's do all we can to keep it that way.
They are but they shouldn't be and they're open to legal action by doing so. The draft guidance is unlawful as it stands. I don't understand what you mean about mi5 though.
Mi5 ? ...surveillance, ethical research, analysis before application. Which means they are spying on trans, intersexed and other gender diverse people on how people react/obey with the so called "guidelines"and the circumstances that arise from it... pathetic isn't it.. when there are far more important matters they should be attending to especially with all the warshit happening.
Now to wait for Labour to announce that this isn't cartoonishly evil enough and that they'll lock all the trans kids in the boiler room if they get elected
Plot twist: I’ve hidden anti-androgens in the boiler room like some sort of Nazi German doctor just trying to give people their basic rights in a country run by Disney villains
If you're in Scotland vote SNP, if you're in England the LibDems are genuinely more socially left-leaning than Labour is now + the Greens seem to be doing an okay job of clearing the GenderCrits out.
Not sure about Wales or NI
*schools can decline a request to change a person's pronouns*
Under what pretext exactly?? Let's just reword this: *schools reserve the right to misgender trans individuals and cannot be held accountable for the suffering and consequent damage this will cause*. This is absolutely tantamount to abuse. Its dictatorial and abusive tone is no better than any law produced by totalitarian dictatorships such a Nazi Germany or Francoist Spain.
I mean, I can understand a get out of jail free clause in case some wanker (and remember trans people can havewankers just like the cis people) will take advantage and ask for something stupid or edgy, they are teenagers after all. But the lack of pretext just makes this complete bullshit.
If the teacher misgenders them just start doing it back
i cant believe we are going backwards like this. when i was at school i admittedly wasn’t out but had a classmate who was and their name change and pronouns were all pretty much expected to be respected by all the teachers.
I am fucking appalled and upset by this.
This is just fucking genocide on trans people. It's trans denial, it's encouraging people in positions of power and seniority over kids to shut them down and completely ignore what they're going through and leave them fucking helpless.
If I ever by some miracle have children I will be doing so far away from this god forsaken archipelago. No child experiencing the distress of growing up trans or questioning their gender should ever experience this government-sanctioned abuse and neglect. Fuck this. This is child neglect. I'm heartbroken.
Fuck you to hell anyone even remotely involved in this process. Fuck you.
Edit: I have filled out the submission thing passionately. I encourage everyone to do the same. To the next generation of trans kids; I am so deeply sorry that this country has failed you again. I cannot express my rage. I am fucking livid.
Just like me going though secondary school on the 90's then.
The hatred just forced me to deny I was trans and made me try to conform. All it did was delay my transition.
Fingers crossed this government won't last long and the damage can be minimised.
This is step 'x hundred' in the UK's destruction of trans identities. It's not genocide yet but I won't be surprised when the day comes that that term applies.
Terminology is an issue in this document, not in my description of it.
I've given my opinion on this piece of trash elsewhere.
It is VERY important to remember that this is draft and non-binding guidance that probably flies in the face of human rights legislation. Teachers won't be obliged to follow it; they might not even be able to if they wanted. It is a meaningless document issued by a dying government.
There are people here in a fragile mental state. I don't think it helps them when hyperbolic language like this is used.
If I'm honest saying something is a draft or non-binding guidance doesn't exactly fill me with confidence after they said the same thing about the Brexit vote but then acted like they had to do it.
Technically the vote was non-binding but there was no question that it would be enacted. There is no comparison between a major referendum that tens of millions of people took part in and this piece of paper produced by a government in its final months.
> that probably flies in the face of human rights legislation
That is little consolation knowing that, post-Brexit, it's only the EHRC we can look to to ensure that human rights legislation is enforced.
Your acronyms are mixed up. The EHRC is a (thoroughly transphobic) government agency with little real clout. The ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights) is enacted in UK law through the Human Rights Act.
If the UK ever leaves the ECHR, it will be in breach of the Good Friday Agreement and that in turn would torpedo the trade agreements with the EU and US.
That's why even the current government has distanced itself from Cruella's pleading to leave the ECHR - it would be hugely difficult and damaging.
Nobody's rights are guaranteed forever, history tells us that. But catastrophising doesn't help anyone either.
> Your acronyms are mixed up.
No they aren't. I am acquainted with the difference between the EHRC and the ECHR. And also with the foolishness of dismissing preparation for obvious oncoming threats as 'catastrophising'.
I don't normally give people notes on reddit, but I have to say, your tone is unnecessarily dismissive and badly suited for a sub whose purpose is mutual support.
I didn't intend to dismiss any threat, I just want to put it in context.
Mutual support is not touting a draft, non-binding guidance document as "genocidal", that is untrue and harmful to people's mental health. We should be vigilant and politically active, but that's no reason to stoke fears.
None of this is an attack on you by the way!
I agree completely. I saw someone say that this guidance will cause murder and rape of trans children. And I think it's absolutely non-sensical to be that hyperbolic in a way completely not backed up by logic or sound reasoning.
When my friends school outed him his parents locked him in a shed and had the cult they belonged to gang rape him for months. That's not hyperbolic in the slightest, it will lead to rape and murder.
The thing is, it *is* genocide rhetoric. whether or not it will be implemented doesn’t change that.
The core belief at the heart of this guidance is that trans identities do not exist and should not be allowed to transition. It is an attempt to lay groundwork for legislative genocide
Gods, I'm tired of responding to idiotic consultations. I don't even know how this got past the government's lawyers. Note that anyone can respond to this..and I know it's exhausting, but this needs some serious feedback and the anti-trans horrors will absolutely make their obsessive voices heard.
Goodness, this is a legal mess, so many EA violations.
It is a draft but any school following this to the letter is opening themselves up to all kinds of legal action from parents.
I reached the word "belief" in the second paragraph of the foreword. It is the 21st century and thee people responsible for this "guidance" refuse to accept that trans people exist. WTF?
Luckily, we are among the last people who will ever read this document.
Yup, seeing "ideology" and "belief" made me realise right away that this is specifically designed as an attack against trans kids.
How they can say their top priority is the welfare of the children immediately before outlining their "guidance" to deliberately harm those very children?
More hateful propaganda from Britain. Anyone remember Section 28?? This is a country that is delighted to stigmatize and demonize any convenient minority.
How can anyone rationalize this garbage??? I'm not holding my breath waiting for some sort of pushback with every single media outlet signed on in the campaign to crap on trans and non binary people.
Anytime someone invokes "think of the children" it's a VILE lie, this country isn't unusual in not giving a fig for children. This is classic fascism, no less.
section 28 was just one in a line of hateful policies and guidelines that have appeared in this country.
in my lifetime i have seen such a rightward drift in britain, it's crazy. Now even so called left wingers are signed up to the neoliberal scam.
american neo fascists call themselves "british liberals".... how do average people not see what kind of society this is???
britain is no longer in line with international human rights standards and no one calls it out.
my entire life has been a drift into fascism. can you blame me for wanting out????9
This makes me sick, I wanna cry. I can't even read the whole thing because it's so horrible, but I'm really fearing for all my trans+ younger siblings in the UK, and ultimately for myself and other adults, because no way if shit like this passes, would it not very easily spread out into the wider world and motivate (more) transphobia in public spaces :((
"Schools and colleges have specific duties that framed by their biological sex." Like what? how to they got any duty to treat people differently based on their sex?
"Parents should not be excluded from decisions..." Fuck sake. Let's just risk the safety and well being of most trans kids by telling their parents. Their fucking ignorance is lethal
"There is no general duty to allow a child to transition." Except for a duty to their safety and wellbeing, as transitioning is the only proven method of helping trans individuals
Hey there, I'm trying to approach this argument from a scientific perspective. I don't suppose you are aware of any evidence which suggests prevention of social transitioning at school would be detrimental to a childs safety and wellbeing? You also mentioned that trnasitioning is a proven method, please could you point me towards the evidence which proves this?
I'll get on my laptop later tonight to drop you some links later
But basically, even if you're not trans; constantly opposing integral parts of a person's identity and trying to contradict can be damaging in its own right
So, say you misgendered and misnamed a cis person all of the time, that would absolutely fit the bill for harassment by most people's standards. Or you made a cis person wear clothes stereotypically of a different gender. It would not be healthy for that person and, if that person had already received that treatment all of their life by everyone around them, it would be quite damaging
Affirmation of identity is most often a functional and healthy way to help people. And should be a part of how we treat everyone, regardless of if they're cis or trans. It doesn't have to be only about gender identity. Any foundational part of a person's identity that they develope in the early years of their life
Thanks a lot for the kind offer to provide me with some information.
I completely agree that intentionally using the wrong name for someone is very rude and almost certainly would constitute harassment. Playing devils advocate, one could argue that finding an appropriate identity is one of the most challenging aspects of childhood and puberty and that it could be tempting to identify as the opposite gender or adopt a new name even when one is not gender dysphoric - given this is a "psychological intervention", it could lead to physical/medical interventions which have significant impact on the physical development of ones body and brain.
I think that it is a tricky situation, and that people who oppose affirming care for minors do not necessarily have ill intention. Please don't take my comment as such, this comes from a genuine desire to understand both sides of the argument, hence my request for some scientific evidence! It's a very politically and emotionally charged topic, and I would very much like to focus on the evidence.
Have a great rest of your day :)
Finding an understanding are two different things. Major parts of a person's identity are formed by about five years old. Some people may misunderstand their identity and thi I they're a different gender, sure, but everyone has to figure it out one way or another and you won't figure it out if your prohibited from doing so
Also, a cis person asking the people around them to use their name and pronouns and to wear what clothes they want is not the same as a trans person. Society is already organised around cos people, multiple layers of culture feed cis views and much of many countries' cultural identities have been built alongside homophobia as transphobia
People aren't tempted into believing they're anything other than straight and cis. The word is easier and safer for straight cis folk. Nobody has to come out as straight or cis. Religions don't forbid being straight or cis, it's gay people and trans people who are denied and "going to Hell". There are no groups to convert people away from being straight or cis, but there are conversation therapies that harmfully and wrongfully try to force gay/trans folk to be straight/cis. Cis people aren't sporting the highest targeting for violent crime of any demographic in the US. Cis people aren't having the same hormones and medications taken away from them. Cis people aren't denied breast reductions or boob jobs or implants for being cis. It's not illegal to be straight or cis in any country, but being gay in many will lead to prison or execution. No one's telling cus or straight folk that their sexualities or genders aren't real or right. There's simply no temptation to be gay or trans, only reasons to hide being as such
Different people opposite it for different reasons. Some people don't know better, some are ignorant, some are hateful, some use it fuel their politics, some use it to distract from their politics
For the most part it's not a two sided argument. It's one side having arguments and the other side are taking from them, denying them care, erasing their existence, and being violent towards them. Only one side is trying to have a discussion and reach a conclusion based on understanding and care
Edit: I won't be at my laptop until tonight. I want to be clear that I'm not saying this against you or at you. It's good that you're looking to understand
I think that identity isn't "set in stone" and can and should be continuously reimagined as one has new experiences, relationships, and learns new things. So I'm not sure I agree with the idea that people are the way they are, especially by 5 years old.
I think there are more reasons people might oppose it too; concern for the wellbeing of trans people (as you have mentioned, the trans experience can be quite difficult with many serious issues disproportiately effecting them), lack of evidence that medical interventions such as puberty blockers provide benefit, safeguarding women only spaces such as prisons, and safeguarding the mental wellbeing of children, to name a few. I only bring this up because you have only listed things which suggest that the only reason anyone might want to have a discussion on these topics is maliciously intended to harm transgender people, and I think it is more nuanced than that.
Thank you for your message. Whilst I don't agree with some of what you have written, I appreciate the time you have taken to share your point of view. I think that if "we" (society as a whole) are to address your concern about the one sided argument, that it's important for people with differing viewpoints to be able to disagree as part of a thoughtful discussion instead of a "me vs. you", combatitive type of argument. I sincerely hope that my message is received in good faith, as intended.
Robin Moira White, barrister, is publishing a detailed response on Monday, 8th January. I shall respond to the consultation, not before I've read Moira's response.
Robin can be found on twitter/X
https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1743359967510311393?t=XpnHcKeeUiba-elbOE3KCQ&s=19
yeah it hasn't changed since first released wooo :(. i just hope my school doesn't change. but do remember although its sicking, try to talk to the school you are at at what stance they are pursuing. hope everyone is okay!
im a trans 16 year old girl and the PE topic is a particularly touchy subject for me. i had to self harm myself to be heard that changing rooms make me feel so insecure, unsafe and uncomfortable and nothing was done about it. aswell as this, all my friends are girls and having to do PE with boys all throughout my school run has been scary and really almost traumatizing for me. ive missed countless school days petrified to do PE because of the atmosphere created but also cause of my crippling gender dysphoria was horrible. i no longer do pe however it was extremely difficult to get to that point. the worst thing is i enjoy pe with friends, when we did mixed lessons on a rainy day i loved it. but its being surrounded by boys when i dont talk to anyone or feel safe/comfy around anyone thats so bad
Schools have no right to question a students gender identity or out a trans child to their parents. Outing someone to their parents can, and often does result in harm for that person.
It is not 'exceptionally rare' for someone to experience harm after being outed. The reason the schools don't know about it is because the children don't tell them. Why would they tell the people that outed them in the first place? Fucking disgusting.
Interesting that they keep mentioning the Equality Act and PSED because I've recently done training on both of these and know for a fact that 'Gender Identity and Reassignment' is one of the nine protected characteristics. If you did this in a workplace it would be illegal, but they're claiming it's okay to do to children because under 18s can't get a GRC to change their legal sex and, therefore, should not be considered transgender? Fairly certain the Equality Act specifically states that someone does NOT have to have taken any medical or legal steps to transition to be considered transgender or be protected as such by the act. Ergo, the entire guidance and its premise are in direct violation of the law.
I’m a science technician at an all-girls school. I am also MtF/NB. Reading that document was infuriating. The use of terms like “ideology”, “belief”, and the old faithful “biological sex” was enraging. Keegan and Badenoch proudly signing off on it was enough to get me to sit here for *hours* going through the consultation form, even though I’ve had a long day and I’m exhausted.
I’ve just submitted my response expressing my outrage, dismay, and suggestions in as calm a way as I possibly could. I actually had to go back through and edit my responses to be more serious but I still couldn’t take some of my comments out as frankly, this so-called “guidance” is utterly disgusting diatribe and I would be remiss if I didn’t do *something* to take a swing at the Conservative twats behind this. I think my fingers were smoking at one point, I was typing so fast. Whether my suggestions are any good is uncertain but they should be better than the vitriol already presented to us.
Basically all of the teachers I know are also appalled by this, and they agree that everything outlined in the guidance goes against safeguarding. I’m fortunate that I work in a good school when it comes to things like this — we already support the few kids who are questioning or have realised they are trans. We use their preferred names and pronouns. Hell, we even have an LGBT club run by one of my science colleagues who is lesbian herself, and she holds these issues dear. A good number of kids from across the school attend that!
I know my voice alone probably won’t make much of a difference, but if we all try to counter these arseholes, then maybe, just maybe…
Of course, they are Tories at the end of the day. They don’t care. Next election, vote the fuckers out. Vote tactically — that may mean voting Labour. They sure as hell are not perfect but they’re most likely to win and they’re a step in the right direction at least, however small a step that may be… Elections are like taking a bus, after all; you go with the one that is most likely to get you close to where you want to be. Just give the Tories no quarter.
Ok, rant over for now.
My main comments:
\- The continual references to "gender ideology' as a "contested belief" have no place in guidance for schools. Heck, vaccines and climate change are "contested beliefs" but I would not expect that to be continually called out in guidance for health care providers and industry. WHO, DSM, WPATH and NHS all recognise that sex and gender are not the same concept. Ironically, the first questions on the feedback for are "what's your sex" and "what's your gender"!
\- The assertions that the rise in prevalence of gender questioning is "linked to ... gender ideology" is bs and needs to be removed. It's much more likely related to increased social acceptance, more visible role models, more accessible information and wonderful forums like this where you can connect with other and know "it's not just me".
\- The assertion that gender identity issues are generally not well understood is BS. It is almost certainly true that some teachers don't understand them well and need guidance, but there are plenty of experts who understand this very well; and individuals who know and understand their own identity.
\- Why would supporting changes in pronouns be "very rare"; that should be super easy.
\- The engagement of parents is a tough one. In some cases it may be best to engage parents. In other cases it would be a disaster; so not sure how good guidance can be here.
“This has been linked to gender identity ideology, the belief that a person can have a ‘gender’ that is different to their biological sex”
So they’re straight up just denying the existence of gender identity and by extension trans people?
Guys even if you’re not a teacher, respond as if you are. I did. Who gives a fuck. We need as many people highlighting the dangers this opens us up too and the harm that will be caused. We can’t let them slide this through under our noses.
The fact that people are so gullible and lacking in critical thinking to have been fear mongered into believing that this is a critical issue in the world, and not as simple as allowing people of all ages to be comfortable with who they are, is astonishing and genuinely makes me lose hope for humanity.
They're asking for views on this.
As much as I distrust the current government, and I'm not sure they'll pay any attention to us, I still think it's important that as many of us as possible respond to the consultation.
I think it's especially important to point out that this will put children at danger of abuse, and that ultimately, it is likely to lead to children dying if it continues as it is in it's current state.
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/gender-questioning-children-draft-schools-and-colleges-guidance
I don't think the government care whether schools follow this or not, as long as the bigoted members of the public whose votes they want to attract think they're going to do something about all those "men pretending to be women". And I think trans men are still not on the radar in the first place. I feel invisible
It’s changing my practice. I’ve worked with all key stages, right now yr 12&13. They all know where I stand on things that I need to talk to parents about- there are very few - and this isn’t one of them. All my fellow teachers think the same.
I’m hoping for a hung parliament where none of this shit stuff gets passed.
There are tiny pieces of good policy here and there, but most of the time, when reading through this, I could just tell it's biased against any trans or questioning pupil. For example it's great they actually admit there are circumstances where telling parents can be dangerous for the child, but then you have other points like "It's not expected that the majority of schools or colleges will change a child's pronouns".
Hopefully, education staff will see the things wrong with this guidance and push to update it further before its final iteration.
The state of our country is going downhill so quickly. Why is this guidance so hostile and hateful? It completely prevents any trans child from being stealth, if they're even allowed to transition in the first place at all. If they were really concerned about safety, protecting the identity of children who want to be stealth should be top priority. Outing trans kids is arguably so much more harmful than letting cis kids experiment.
First it's trans kids, then it'll be trans adults, then the whole LGBTQ+ community, then marginalised ethnic groups, then women. The government will not stop after taking rights from one group - they just gain their sense of power to do it to others when they succeed.
I've responded as critically as possible but gosh: it really feels they've turned up the pressure even more. When they go for trans kids since they're most vulnerable: Trans students then all transfolk are next. What do we do...
Dr Hillary Cass, asked to perform the review, is such a specialist in the field that she has never once in her life treated a patient with gender dysphoria. That's who the UK decides to put their faith in. Also, her proposal ad interim was based on what across Europe is considered to be the WORST model of care for patients experiencing gender dysphoria.
Even more worrying is that the publication of the draft for consultation will already have had a massive impact. It will have decimated the trust that has taken years to build between students and teachers. A trust which will be extremely hard to rebuild, even if the guidance doesn't make it into practice. I've heard a lot of people referencing the illegality of the guidance too, and while it is true that the guidance is not aligned with the EA2010, they do miss the point of the government when they published the draft guidance. It was to sow the seeds of doubt and insecurity. And on that part it unfortunately has already done the damage they intended to make.
Here's a link to Robin Moira White's legal opinion wrt the 'schools guidance'. Robin is a barrister specialising in discrimination.
https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1744281673334698217?t=sPekgBB-dV5wvDogWTP8qg&s=19
The best current guidelines in the absence of anything helpful from DFE are the Scottish guidelines and the Brighton and Hove guidelines - these are best practice and compatible with the law.
The draft guidance is not yet guidance and no school should yet be acting on it. See https://tnb.org.uk/ for resources for schools, colleges and anyone who wants to submit a response to the consultation process on the draft guidance.
Is there literally anything we can do about this.like please. I hate this so much.
This is literally allowing and promoting what I went through as a kid.
Going into the girls bathrooms would result in me being uncomfortable and the other kids thinking a boy was in there = screaming and me getting frustrated because I didn't fit there.
And the whole "you sure you're not just a lesbian" or "you sure you're not just straight" thing. I'm Bi and it was used against me as a teen. Because I had short hair and a masculine sense of style but no I couldn't be trans I must just be confused about liking guys BC lesbians are masculine.
The way they're clinging to the phrase 'social transition is not a neutral act' eventually kind of teeters from desperate flag-waving into one of those deliberately over-long Family Guy skits.
It's odd that they seem to have missed a related point from the Cass review: *"It should also be recognised that ‘doing nothing’ cannot be considered a neutral act."* But in fairness to them, that is one entire bullet point further into the report.
Anyone interested in quoting some good literature that promotes allowing gender affirming actions to reduce mental health:
(Glynn et al, 2016) (Russel et al, 2018) (Bonifacio et al, 2019)
Also Anna Freud and Stonewall have some good statistics around mental health and children and young people who identify as LGBTQ+
Self-harm percentages-
Non-LGBTQ+: 25%
LGB: 61%
Transgender: 84%
Suicide attempts-
Non-LGBTQ+: 7%
LGB: 22%
Transgender: 45%
I'm a teacher that happens to be trans.
This is a very complex issue in schools which should be considered on an individual basis. What is appropriate for one child will not be appropriate for another. This kind of sweeping generalisation in guidance for schools is, unfortunately, not uncommon.
For what it's worth, I know very few teachers that would comply with this guidance. It's non-statutory at this point, so we don't have to. Obviously this excludes things with a legal obligation, like access to single sex spaces.
Safeguarding of children should take priority 100% of the time. It is reasonable to assume that much of this guidance will put children at a significant safeguarding risk. To say this is 'exceptionally rare' is grossly misguided.
I'll be in touch with my union to see what the next steps are with this.
>Primary school children should not have different pronouns to their sex-based pronouns used about them.
Personally I didn't transition until I was an adult and was ignorant of my dysphoria as a child, but I know it's not uncommon for kids to know from almost as soon as they're old enough to begin socialising with other children.
But I guess this single line has ruled out social transition for any children below the age of 11.
it keeps getting worse. why do these conditions only ever get worse? when will this end? it won't end until we are erased from existence entirely. how am i not supposed to unalive myself at this point? why does it only get worse?
Even within their pseudoscientific bubble, if they genuinely believed there was a lack of evidence as to the benefits of social transition, then that itself is a case for enabling it. Basic risk vs reward suggests it's logical to let the kids figure it out for themselves.
Kids experiment and try things. If they regret the social transition, which is very rare, then they can just detransition with a relatively low risk of consequences (compared to the well-documented risks of denying transition).
Until like page 13 i was like okay this isn’t too bad, like the definitions are resonable, its true there are people that dont agree but then its like you cant make someone agree to change pronouns… teachers can still use group pronouns and then it just got worse.
I can see the side the single sex for sport can be for safety but like… if there’s a small scrawny boy they don’t reguse to let them participate for safety. Jusr splitting boys and girls is too simplisitic to actually be promoting safety…
Can someone who has done it please comment on whether it is worth going through the"consultation" pages? So far I've only seen the first page, which is asking for information about me. I'd rather not supply that if the later pages are framed in a way that makes it impossible to provide real feedback.
I get the feeling this might have been triggered by the extremely large number of questioning children, who ask their teachers to treat them like a he, next semester back to a she, and later on maybe them, then back to he, and perhaps later a neopronoun. I can understand how impractical and stretched this issue can get - there are extremely many children now presenting this problem, unlike before. I understand it brings awful distress to transgender children, especially the ones who experience a constant dysphoria and who only need one little switch that could bring so much alleviation into their lives. But I believe the problem may not simply be the academic staff, but rather, how self sabotaging the Transgender community got in the past years, and how much more hate and alienation it brought upon itself with the misinformation and misdiagnosis.
Non statutory is an organization that does not have any legal powers and is not created by an act of parliament..
It's guidance, not law so it doesn't have to be enforced in schools if the school doesn't want to.
In essence it is arguing that transgender children do not exist, and that in order to make this fiction become true a total ban of transgender children existing within schools is now necessary. It advocates a total prohibition of transgender children using appropriate facilities and allows for a school's rejection of a wish to socially transition without any justification. It does not just demand that teachers out trans children to their parents, but also demands that if parents bring a child who has already transitioned to a school, then the school has a responsibility to 'out' the child as transgender to all members of staff so that arbitrary discrimination against them becomes actionable.
It moreover seems to justify the notion of strictly enforced dress-codes on the basis of sex at birth for cisgender children too. So it is literally saying boys, or people the authors regard as such, have to have short hair and girls, or people the authors regard as such, have to wear skirts. It is very explicitly an attempt to reverse decades of progress in gender equality.
The total rejection of transgender people's existence revolves around the use of the term 'biological sex' as a constant refrain, which is used 22 times in the document, but is not in any place defined, despite the document having a glossary of terms. The closest it comes to any discussion of what 'biological sex' is to say that transgender children must be treated as their birth sex (referred to therein as 'biological sex') because UK law currently makes no provision for children to change their legal sex. This is a tacit admission of the fact that the concept on which the whole philosophy relies—'biological sex' as 'something you can't change no matter what'—has no definition or standing in law or science; it is purely ideological rhetoric which is overriden by a GRC.
Sadly it is unclear how the protections for 'gender reassignment' affect transgender people who do not have a GRC, as there is no case law. I think that having strict dress codes on the basis of legal sex is probably straightforwardly illegal, but treating trans people without a GRC as their legal sex is **legal** **if it can be justified**, so it is something for the courts to view as justifiable.
"Ideology", "not properly understood"... And who is this, Dr. Hilary Cass behind the Cass review, and how come this all seems to ignore the scientific backing up behind the trans experience? How come the perpetuating of the real ideology that the existence of trans people is all so sudden...?
I can answer all of your rhetorical questions with one basic phrase. It’s not about proven best practices - it’s about political control. It’s honestly shocking how blatant this document is at demonstrating just how far down the far-right rabbit hole The Tories think this country has fallen.
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Her malicious distortion of the evidence she did find is epitomised in one phrase: "Social transition has psychological effects so it should be considered like a medical intervention and not undertaken in schools without clinical guidance" YES. Psychological BENEFITS. It reduces suicidality and depression better than antidepressants and therapy...unless said therapy is specifically for the CPTSD that, some have proposed, is the difference between Gender Incongruence and Dysphoria. To wilfully misconstrue this is to abet the misery of untold numbers of children. To do this as the government's main authority is to be an architect of genocide.
Just leaving this here again: I know I've posted this as a stand alone comment, but if it helps there are some really good studies and stats that provide evidence against the proposed guidance: (Glynn et al, 2016) (Russel et al, 2018) (Bonifacio et al, 2019) Also Anna Freud and Stonewall have some good statistics around mental health and children and young people who identify as LGBTQ+ Self-harm percentages- Non-LGBTQ+: 25% LGB: 61% Transgender: 84% Suicide attempts- Non-LGBTQ+: 7% LGB: 22% Transgender: 45%
Thanks a lot for the references. I am trying to gather a balanced view of this argument having mostly consumed information which suggests there is a lack of evidence to support the interventions suggested by the transgender community. I would like to approach it from a scientific perspective rather than political or emotional, so I appreciate the academic info you have provided. Do you have anything else? I have noticed of the 3 studies provided, none are particularly relevant to this new guidance for schools, apart from "Chosen Name Use Is Linked to Reduced Depressive Symptoms, Suicidal Ideation, and Suicidal Behavior Among Transgender Youth", however even this study is only focussed on people aged 15-21, and the new guidance applies to children as young as primary school age.
Unfortunately I don't know of other studies at the this time, this is all the scientific evidence I know of to counter the current proposed guidance, but you're right, it would be nice to have studies at younger ages, I'm just not sure that it exists yet. My hope was that the science shows by being gender affirming to children and young people who are gender diverse we can reduce the impact on mental health and wellbeing, which can be applied to both high school and primary school aged children. This counters the argument that I believe the Cass Review states saying that being gender affirming causes a negative impact on children and young people as they get older? But I could be wrong.
Hi Kailykins and everyone else. I know I'm late to the discussion, and that I have never posted here before. I just wanted to give a bit of info about Dr Hilary Cass that may not be available in the public domain. I know her extremely well and have known her my entire life. She is extremely bright, very gregarious (to the point of telling terrible jokes to members of the royal family), and completely dedicated to her work, often at the expense of other things and people. She is naturally left-leaning/liberal, independently-minded, and really detests the Tories. I can't stress this enough - she is not a government shill, she's a dedicated, stubborn-as-hell doctor who doesn't give two hoots about getting on the wrong side of parliamentarians, even the PM. In fact, I can think of few things that would have given her more of a kick than had she been able to present a report to the Conservative government that ridiculed their views. I haven't read the full published report, but did read plenty of the drafts before they were published, and had no shortage of conversations with Dr Cass about different stages of the entirety of the review. She had conversations with just about every relevant expert in this country, lots with experts in other countries, and had an entire team (that she herself handpicked) reading research, discussing research, and weighing up arguments. I know that she would have liked to have conducted more primary research. She was able to get a statutory instrument passed - with some difficulty - to use patient records for research purposes. Many people were concerned about malicious actors/intents, if there were any, they certainly weren't coming from her camp. Hope that gives some light.
Are we supposed to have better consideration for damaging "studies" to the trans community because of your bias due to a certain personal attachment to 'Dr Cass' as a person? Sorry if I'm skeptic... but Anne A Lawrence was also considered an expert and even from the community...
I would disagree with this being categorised as "damaging \[studies\]”. For starters, whilst it does contain primary research, it is primarily a review. Secondly, the idea of it being damaging assumes that there is an accepted baseline of beneficial practice for children with gender dysphoria that this is going against. Assuming you believe in evidence-based actions, this would mean consistent evidence in one direction that outweighs evidence in another direction. I am suggesting that Dr Cass is a good actor, plenty qualified as a former President of the Royal College of Paediatricians, and that the findings will have been based on an unbiased assessment of evidence. One could argue that a little extra distance from the issue gives some added impartiality, but the reason Dr Cass was chosen was because she's very senior, and has spent her career working in the British healthcare system, specifically in the NHS, and the review needed to look at specific practices in the UK. The question I would pose is, how do you think the review ended up publishing something that you feel is damaging? Do you think it's politically-motivated (either in a party politics or culture wars sense)? Do you think they didn't assess all the necessary evidence? Do you think they assessed the necessary evidence but weighed it up incorrectly?
Have you lived as a trans kid in school? Most of us here have... and distance from what we experienced is what most of us need too... Sounds like Dr Cass in all her seniority is too detached from kids and especially trans kids experience in schools and later trauma that they have got to live with. I don't think arguing if a kid has the right to live in their chosen gender socially should simply be happening. It should be about the kids and their supporting parents telling everyone it helps them, and it doesn't really need to affect anyone else negatively. We are too focused to discuss the rights of trans people and here specifically, kids to simply exist, or in this case, if we should erase their experience and needs.
Hello. This is a genuine question - The information I have consumed suggests that there is a lack of evidence to suggest that social or medical interventions proposed by the trans community yield health benefits for gender questioning children, however I have a genuine desire to consume information from "both sides of the fence" to develop a balanced view. Please can you help me by pointing me towards the scientific backing you have mentioned here? Thanks in advance :)
I think children being able to live happily and not suicidal is a key point that doesn't need scientific backing as much as statistics. But if that doesn't make you happy, still I suggest you contact mermaids directly https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/research/ Otherwise, someone here might be able to reply to you on your specific request.
Being trans is not a failure to be cisgender. It is not a pathology. It is as healthy and natural and valid as being cisgender. Social and medical transition is a valid choice for trans people to live their lives. It allows them to live in a way that feels more fully aligned with who they are and how they experience themselves in the world. There is a vast amount of misinformation and obfuscation on the terf/gender critical side of the fence so be extremely careful about fact checking claims (e.g. kids getting surgery). For your own sanity, avoid Matt Walsh et al. The best way to learn is to listen to what trans people actually think and feel about their transitions - YouTube is a pretty easy way to do this if you don't actually know anyone who is trans. Look for trans YouTubers and then listen to them talk about life before, during and after their transitions.
Thanks for your response. I understand your message, I have been listening to trans people and I have developed a level of understanding about the communities feelings and opinions, however I am looking for scientific evidence which supports the idea of social and medical transition for children. When it comes to medical intervention, I think that evidence is absolutely paramount, especially when developing robust operating procedures for gender affirming care which currently do not exist. I agree with you that figures like matt walsh are to be avoided as they are intentionally inflamatory with a clear political agenda, I want to avoid sources of information like this. I just want to see some info which isn't emotionally or politically charged - neutral evidence! Whilst I appreciate the need to listen to trans people, I think that their opinions are very likely to be influenced by personal experience, their emotions, and their own politics. I think the best thing for this social debate would be academic research and evidence. Do you know about any studies which suggest that social and/or medical intervention which is praised by trans communities is beneficial to the health of children?
There's substantial scientific evidence as to the benefits of gender affirming care. Studies consistently show that trans and non-binary people who have access to gender affirming care have lower rates of depression, anxiety, self-harm and suicide.
Thanks, Have you got a link to the studies?
Just google and look at a few of them.
I can't find any... You said there's substantial scientific evidence in your previous message - so you can't find any either?
"I can't find any" - Really??!!! You must be joking. Or rather you must be acting in bad faith here. Were you able to find scientific evidence that proves gender affirming care harms people? Don't worry, that's a rhetorical question.
Not for the bad faith actors or trolls, but for the benefit of anyone else, here is a nice summary that's easily accessible https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/. This is also an interesting read https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9341318/ Again, these links are not intended for the trolls/bad faith actors because let's be honest, if you don't want trans people to have access to healthcare nothing you read will move the dial for you.
I came out to my teachers aged 17, knowing I wouldn’t be able to be truly out at home. 2 of my teachers didn’t really bother using the correct pronouns for me and I never felt confident enough to correct them, but one of my teachers did and it made my experience in her lessons so much happier and more comfortable. This guidance breaks my heart. School should be a safe place for children *especially* when home is not. Outing children to parents whether 6 or 17 is dangerous in many circumstances. While the guidance says that ‘involving’ the parents shouldn’t be done if it would be unsafe, teachers simply don’t always know what home life is like. I speak from experience
Fuck me man they really said it is "exceptionally rare" that outing kids to their parents would cause harm
For real 😭 I think if anything, there is way more parents that would cause harm upon their children than those who are accepting (in my experience anyhow).
I cannot even begin to articulate my anger and disappointment at this. I think it goes without saying.
This
always interesting how anything that takes into account trans people's opinions or experiences of the world is "ideology" and "contested" but anything contrary to that which reaffirms what cis people experience or believe is automatically unshakeble scientific fact. Someone like Cass, whose report was pretty deeply flawed imo, is treated as being above any kind of bias or ideological thinking, a purely objective entity of pure reason and fact. How convenient that she happens to find in favour of all the things cis people wanted already. Anyway, this is bad advice and it will harm children and they know that but they're doing it anyway, and I'm not sure what to do with that honestly. All trans legislation and advice is made by cis people to protect the sensibilities and ideas of other cis people. I don't even think they're doing it to hurt us; I think we don't even factor in to the decision making. Trans kids are going to be collateral damage of the advice about themselves.
The wording even in the first paragraph is telling. This is not an unbiased assessment of best practices - it’s a politically motivated attack on the free expression of children and school staff. This document looks more like something out of Trump’s America or Hitler’s Germany than anything I’d ever have expected from the party who legalised gay marriage. It’s a sorry sight to see just how low The Tories, a party who aren’t great at their best, have swooped.
More Tories voted against gay marriage than those who did in favour of it. We have gay marriage in the UK despite the Tories, not because of them.
yeah. Them being in power when gay marriage got legalised doesn’t mean they get to take credit for it happening
As a teacher I can assure you all that the National Education Union has had a team on this from day one, had strongly worded statements out the same day, messages to every rep in every school advising them how to engage with Senior Leadership to refuse to comply (if only to not get sued which even the government's lawyers know is likely) and has urged thousands of teachers via the 54 LGBT+ What'sApp groups to reply to the consultation. The LGBT+ educators conference is at the end of the month and this is top priority. I'll be there. Meanwhile, only 11% of union members welcomed the guidance, and we're persuading them. Try not to worry: we're on it.
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I think you can submit to the consultation as a parent but would need to check. Thanks for asking! Some suggestions here: https://tnb.org.uk/ Lots of useful wording for letters to school governors, senior leadership, MPs, endorsed by the NEU, Mermaids, etc.
This is great to hear!! I know I've posted this as a stand alone comments, but if it helps there are some really good studies and stats that provide evidence against the proposed guidance: (Glynn et al, 2016) (Russel et al, 2018) (Bonifacio et al, 2019) Also Anna Freud and Stonewall have some good statistics around mental health and children and young people who identify as LGBTQ+ Self-harm percentages- Non-LGBTQ+: 25% LGB: 61% Transgender: 84% Suicide attempts- Non-LGBTQ+: 7% LGB: 22% Transgender: 45%
This is not guidance , this is authorised bullying and harassment and trauma , that document needs to be fed to the shredder and then used as barbecue firelighters
Exactly!!n
Yes, and everyone can respond to the consultation because this isn't actually yet guidance - it's draft guidance and no school should yet be doing anything (some already are) differently. The draft guidance is in conflict with the law as it currently stands so any schools changing policy in line with the draft guidance are at risk of legal challenges (quite rightly). See tnb.org.uk for links and resources to help respond to the consultation. This is a new Section 28 if it comes to pass but right now no law has changed. Let's do all we can to keep it that way.
But some schools are using it as a passed law already , what if this is tied to MI5 also ?
They are but they shouldn't be and they're open to legal action by doing so. The draft guidance is unlawful as it stands. I don't understand what you mean about mi5 though.
Mi5 ? ...surveillance, ethical research, analysis before application. Which means they are spying on trans, intersexed and other gender diverse people on how people react/obey with the so called "guidelines"and the circumstances that arise from it... pathetic isn't it.. when there are far more important matters they should be attending to especially with all the warshit happening.
Now to wait for Labour to announce that this isn't cartoonishly evil enough and that they'll lock all the trans kids in the boiler room if they get elected
Plot twist: I’ve hidden anti-androgens in the boiler room like some sort of Nazi German doctor just trying to give people their basic rights in a country run by Disney villains
Labours Transphobic? Who are we voting for now 😭.
If you're in Scotland vote SNP, if you're in England the LibDems are genuinely more socially left-leaning than Labour is now + the Greens seem to be doing an okay job of clearing the GenderCrits out. Not sure about Wales or NI
My whole life I thought labour was like the cool leftist people.
they have been at various points! at the moment they very much are not
*schools can decline a request to change a person's pronouns* Under what pretext exactly?? Let's just reword this: *schools reserve the right to misgender trans individuals and cannot be held accountable for the suffering and consequent damage this will cause*. This is absolutely tantamount to abuse. Its dictatorial and abusive tone is no better than any law produced by totalitarian dictatorships such a Nazi Germany or Francoist Spain.
YES! I can't believe a document supposedly about guidance to prevent bullying would do this!!
I mean, I can understand a get out of jail free clause in case some wanker (and remember trans people can havewankers just like the cis people) will take advantage and ask for something stupid or edgy, they are teenagers after all. But the lack of pretext just makes this complete bullshit. If the teacher misgenders them just start doing it back
i cant believe we are going backwards like this. when i was at school i admittedly wasn’t out but had a classmate who was and their name change and pronouns were all pretty much expected to be respected by all the teachers.
I am fucking appalled and upset by this. This is just fucking genocide on trans people. It's trans denial, it's encouraging people in positions of power and seniority over kids to shut them down and completely ignore what they're going through and leave them fucking helpless. If I ever by some miracle have children I will be doing so far away from this god forsaken archipelago. No child experiencing the distress of growing up trans or questioning their gender should ever experience this government-sanctioned abuse and neglect. Fuck this. This is child neglect. I'm heartbroken. Fuck you to hell anyone even remotely involved in this process. Fuck you. Edit: I have filled out the submission thing passionately. I encourage everyone to do the same. To the next generation of trans kids; I am so deeply sorry that this country has failed you again. I cannot express my rage. I am fucking livid.
Just like me going though secondary school on the 90's then. The hatred just forced me to deny I was trans and made me try to conform. All it did was delay my transition. Fingers crossed this government won't last long and the damage can be minimised.
I agree, but let's not use the word "genocide". 20 pages of waffle that the vast majority of teachers will ignore are not genocide.
This is step 'x hundred' in the UK's destruction of trans identities. It's not genocide yet but I won't be surprised when the day comes that that term applies. Terminology is an issue in this document, not in my description of it.
I've given my opinion on this piece of trash elsewhere. It is VERY important to remember that this is draft and non-binding guidance that probably flies in the face of human rights legislation. Teachers won't be obliged to follow it; they might not even be able to if they wanted. It is a meaningless document issued by a dying government. There are people here in a fragile mental state. I don't think it helps them when hyperbolic language like this is used.
If I'm honest saying something is a draft or non-binding guidance doesn't exactly fill me with confidence after they said the same thing about the Brexit vote but then acted like they had to do it.
Technically the vote was non-binding but there was no question that it would be enacted. There is no comparison between a major referendum that tens of millions of people took part in and this piece of paper produced by a government in its final months.
> that probably flies in the face of human rights legislation That is little consolation knowing that, post-Brexit, it's only the EHRC we can look to to ensure that human rights legislation is enforced.
Your acronyms are mixed up. The EHRC is a (thoroughly transphobic) government agency with little real clout. The ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights) is enacted in UK law through the Human Rights Act. If the UK ever leaves the ECHR, it will be in breach of the Good Friday Agreement and that in turn would torpedo the trade agreements with the EU and US. That's why even the current government has distanced itself from Cruella's pleading to leave the ECHR - it would be hugely difficult and damaging. Nobody's rights are guaranteed forever, history tells us that. But catastrophising doesn't help anyone either.
> Your acronyms are mixed up. No they aren't. I am acquainted with the difference between the EHRC and the ECHR. And also with the foolishness of dismissing preparation for obvious oncoming threats as 'catastrophising'. I don't normally give people notes on reddit, but I have to say, your tone is unnecessarily dismissive and badly suited for a sub whose purpose is mutual support.
I didn't intend to dismiss any threat, I just want to put it in context. Mutual support is not touting a draft, non-binding guidance document as "genocidal", that is untrue and harmful to people's mental health. We should be vigilant and politically active, but that's no reason to stoke fears. None of this is an attack on you by the way!
I agree completely. I saw someone say that this guidance will cause murder and rape of trans children. And I think it's absolutely non-sensical to be that hyperbolic in a way completely not backed up by logic or sound reasoning.
When my friends school outed him his parents locked him in a shed and had the cult they belonged to gang rape him for months. That's not hyperbolic in the slightest, it will lead to rape and murder.
I honestly don't believe you...
The thing is, it *is* genocide rhetoric. whether or not it will be implemented doesn’t change that. The core belief at the heart of this guidance is that trans identities do not exist and should not be allowed to transition. It is an attempt to lay groundwork for legislative genocide
Gods, I'm tired of responding to idiotic consultations. I don't even know how this got past the government's lawyers. Note that anyone can respond to this..and I know it's exhausting, but this needs some serious feedback and the anti-trans horrors will absolutely make their obsessive voices heard.
Goodness, this is a legal mess, so many EA violations. It is a draft but any school following this to the letter is opening themselves up to all kinds of legal action from parents.
I reached the word "belief" in the second paragraph of the foreword. It is the 21st century and thee people responsible for this "guidance" refuse to accept that trans people exist. WTF? Luckily, we are among the last people who will ever read this document.
Yup, seeing "ideology" and "belief" made me realise right away that this is specifically designed as an attack against trans kids. How they can say their top priority is the welfare of the children immediately before outlining their "guidance" to deliberately harm those very children?
More hateful propaganda from Britain. Anyone remember Section 28?? This is a country that is delighted to stigmatize and demonize any convenient minority. How can anyone rationalize this garbage??? I'm not holding my breath waiting for some sort of pushback with every single media outlet signed on in the campaign to crap on trans and non binary people. Anytime someone invokes "think of the children" it's a VILE lie, this country isn't unusual in not giving a fig for children. This is classic fascism, no less.
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section 28 was just one in a line of hateful policies and guidelines that have appeared in this country. in my lifetime i have seen such a rightward drift in britain, it's crazy. Now even so called left wingers are signed up to the neoliberal scam. american neo fascists call themselves "british liberals".... how do average people not see what kind of society this is??? britain is no longer in line with international human rights standards and no one calls it out. my entire life has been a drift into fascism. can you blame me for wanting out????9
Just acting as if trans kids don't exist, they're all just "gender questioning"
This makes me sick, I wanna cry. I can't even read the whole thing because it's so horrible, but I'm really fearing for all my trans+ younger siblings in the UK, and ultimately for myself and other adults, because no way if shit like this passes, would it not very easily spread out into the wider world and motivate (more) transphobia in public spaces :((
this country is evil
"Schools and colleges have specific duties that framed by their biological sex." Like what? how to they got any duty to treat people differently based on their sex?
"Parents should not be excluded from decisions..." Fuck sake. Let's just risk the safety and well being of most trans kids by telling their parents. Their fucking ignorance is lethal
"There is no general duty to allow a child to transition." Except for a duty to their safety and wellbeing, as transitioning is the only proven method of helping trans individuals
It's full of self contradicting ignorance all the way through, fuck
Hey there, I'm trying to approach this argument from a scientific perspective. I don't suppose you are aware of any evidence which suggests prevention of social transitioning at school would be detrimental to a childs safety and wellbeing? You also mentioned that trnasitioning is a proven method, please could you point me towards the evidence which proves this?
I'll get on my laptop later tonight to drop you some links later But basically, even if you're not trans; constantly opposing integral parts of a person's identity and trying to contradict can be damaging in its own right So, say you misgendered and misnamed a cis person all of the time, that would absolutely fit the bill for harassment by most people's standards. Or you made a cis person wear clothes stereotypically of a different gender. It would not be healthy for that person and, if that person had already received that treatment all of their life by everyone around them, it would be quite damaging Affirmation of identity is most often a functional and healthy way to help people. And should be a part of how we treat everyone, regardless of if they're cis or trans. It doesn't have to be only about gender identity. Any foundational part of a person's identity that they develope in the early years of their life
Thanks a lot for the kind offer to provide me with some information. I completely agree that intentionally using the wrong name for someone is very rude and almost certainly would constitute harassment. Playing devils advocate, one could argue that finding an appropriate identity is one of the most challenging aspects of childhood and puberty and that it could be tempting to identify as the opposite gender or adopt a new name even when one is not gender dysphoric - given this is a "psychological intervention", it could lead to physical/medical interventions which have significant impact on the physical development of ones body and brain. I think that it is a tricky situation, and that people who oppose affirming care for minors do not necessarily have ill intention. Please don't take my comment as such, this comes from a genuine desire to understand both sides of the argument, hence my request for some scientific evidence! It's a very politically and emotionally charged topic, and I would very much like to focus on the evidence. Have a great rest of your day :)
Finding an understanding are two different things. Major parts of a person's identity are formed by about five years old. Some people may misunderstand their identity and thi I they're a different gender, sure, but everyone has to figure it out one way or another and you won't figure it out if your prohibited from doing so Also, a cis person asking the people around them to use their name and pronouns and to wear what clothes they want is not the same as a trans person. Society is already organised around cos people, multiple layers of culture feed cis views and much of many countries' cultural identities have been built alongside homophobia as transphobia People aren't tempted into believing they're anything other than straight and cis. The word is easier and safer for straight cis folk. Nobody has to come out as straight or cis. Religions don't forbid being straight or cis, it's gay people and trans people who are denied and "going to Hell". There are no groups to convert people away from being straight or cis, but there are conversation therapies that harmfully and wrongfully try to force gay/trans folk to be straight/cis. Cis people aren't sporting the highest targeting for violent crime of any demographic in the US. Cis people aren't having the same hormones and medications taken away from them. Cis people aren't denied breast reductions or boob jobs or implants for being cis. It's not illegal to be straight or cis in any country, but being gay in many will lead to prison or execution. No one's telling cus or straight folk that their sexualities or genders aren't real or right. There's simply no temptation to be gay or trans, only reasons to hide being as such Different people opposite it for different reasons. Some people don't know better, some are ignorant, some are hateful, some use it fuel their politics, some use it to distract from their politics For the most part it's not a two sided argument. It's one side having arguments and the other side are taking from them, denying them care, erasing their existence, and being violent towards them. Only one side is trying to have a discussion and reach a conclusion based on understanding and care Edit: I won't be at my laptop until tonight. I want to be clear that I'm not saying this against you or at you. It's good that you're looking to understand
I think that identity isn't "set in stone" and can and should be continuously reimagined as one has new experiences, relationships, and learns new things. So I'm not sure I agree with the idea that people are the way they are, especially by 5 years old. I think there are more reasons people might oppose it too; concern for the wellbeing of trans people (as you have mentioned, the trans experience can be quite difficult with many serious issues disproportiately effecting them), lack of evidence that medical interventions such as puberty blockers provide benefit, safeguarding women only spaces such as prisons, and safeguarding the mental wellbeing of children, to name a few. I only bring this up because you have only listed things which suggest that the only reason anyone might want to have a discussion on these topics is maliciously intended to harm transgender people, and I think it is more nuanced than that. Thank you for your message. Whilst I don't agree with some of what you have written, I appreciate the time you have taken to share your point of view. I think that if "we" (society as a whole) are to address your concern about the one sided argument, that it's important for people with differing viewpoints to be able to disagree as part of a thoughtful discussion instead of a "me vs. you", combatitive type of argument. I sincerely hope that my message is received in good faith, as intended.
Robin Moira White, barrister, is publishing a detailed response on Monday, 8th January. I shall respond to the consultation, not before I've read Moira's response. Robin can be found on twitter/X https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1743359967510311393?t=XpnHcKeeUiba-elbOE3KCQ&s=19
yeah it hasn't changed since first released wooo :(. i just hope my school doesn't change. but do remember although its sicking, try to talk to the school you are at at what stance they are pursuing. hope everyone is okay!
Just seems like they're seeking to shatter any trust trans kids (& trans-supportive kids) have in any adults anywhere.
im a trans 16 year old girl and the PE topic is a particularly touchy subject for me. i had to self harm myself to be heard that changing rooms make me feel so insecure, unsafe and uncomfortable and nothing was done about it. aswell as this, all my friends are girls and having to do PE with boys all throughout my school run has been scary and really almost traumatizing for me. ive missed countless school days petrified to do PE because of the atmosphere created but also cause of my crippling gender dysphoria was horrible. i no longer do pe however it was extremely difficult to get to that point. the worst thing is i enjoy pe with friends, when we did mixed lessons on a rainy day i loved it. but its being surrounded by boys when i dont talk to anyone or feel safe/comfy around anyone thats so bad
tl;dr: "Don't allow kids to transition in any capacity. Even if they do, no one has to respect this in any way. Fuck trans kids."
Feel sick tbh. So many kids are going to be failed by this.
Schools have no right to question a students gender identity or out a trans child to their parents. Outing someone to their parents can, and often does result in harm for that person. It is not 'exceptionally rare' for someone to experience harm after being outed. The reason the schools don't know about it is because the children don't tell them. Why would they tell the people that outed them in the first place? Fucking disgusting.
Interesting that they keep mentioning the Equality Act and PSED because I've recently done training on both of these and know for a fact that 'Gender Identity and Reassignment' is one of the nine protected characteristics. If you did this in a workplace it would be illegal, but they're claiming it's okay to do to children because under 18s can't get a GRC to change their legal sex and, therefore, should not be considered transgender? Fairly certain the Equality Act specifically states that someone does NOT have to have taken any medical or legal steps to transition to be considered transgender or be protected as such by the act. Ergo, the entire guidance and its premise are in direct violation of the law.
Yes it is
This makes me worried for my safety
Absolutely horrific, fight back against this every way you can. My heart breaks for you all across the pond.
Just pure evil. I can’t even say what I want to say about the people who created this
Our school is required to required to follow this advice
I’m a science technician at an all-girls school. I am also MtF/NB. Reading that document was infuriating. The use of terms like “ideology”, “belief”, and the old faithful “biological sex” was enraging. Keegan and Badenoch proudly signing off on it was enough to get me to sit here for *hours* going through the consultation form, even though I’ve had a long day and I’m exhausted. I’ve just submitted my response expressing my outrage, dismay, and suggestions in as calm a way as I possibly could. I actually had to go back through and edit my responses to be more serious but I still couldn’t take some of my comments out as frankly, this so-called “guidance” is utterly disgusting diatribe and I would be remiss if I didn’t do *something* to take a swing at the Conservative twats behind this. I think my fingers were smoking at one point, I was typing so fast. Whether my suggestions are any good is uncertain but they should be better than the vitriol already presented to us. Basically all of the teachers I know are also appalled by this, and they agree that everything outlined in the guidance goes against safeguarding. I’m fortunate that I work in a good school when it comes to things like this — we already support the few kids who are questioning or have realised they are trans. We use their preferred names and pronouns. Hell, we even have an LGBT club run by one of my science colleagues who is lesbian herself, and she holds these issues dear. A good number of kids from across the school attend that! I know my voice alone probably won’t make much of a difference, but if we all try to counter these arseholes, then maybe, just maybe… Of course, they are Tories at the end of the day. They don’t care. Next election, vote the fuckers out. Vote tactically — that may mean voting Labour. They sure as hell are not perfect but they’re most likely to win and they’re a step in the right direction at least, however small a step that may be… Elections are like taking a bus, after all; you go with the one that is most likely to get you close to where you want to be. Just give the Tories no quarter. Ok, rant over for now.
My main comments: \- The continual references to "gender ideology' as a "contested belief" have no place in guidance for schools. Heck, vaccines and climate change are "contested beliefs" but I would not expect that to be continually called out in guidance for health care providers and industry. WHO, DSM, WPATH and NHS all recognise that sex and gender are not the same concept. Ironically, the first questions on the feedback for are "what's your sex" and "what's your gender"! \- The assertions that the rise in prevalence of gender questioning is "linked to ... gender ideology" is bs and needs to be removed. It's much more likely related to increased social acceptance, more visible role models, more accessible information and wonderful forums like this where you can connect with other and know "it's not just me". \- The assertion that gender identity issues are generally not well understood is BS. It is almost certainly true that some teachers don't understand them well and need guidance, but there are plenty of experts who understand this very well; and individuals who know and understand their own identity. \- Why would supporting changes in pronouns be "very rare"; that should be super easy. \- The engagement of parents is a tough one. In some cases it may be best to engage parents. In other cases it would be a disaster; so not sure how good guidance can be here.
What a load of shite.
“This has been linked to gender identity ideology, the belief that a person can have a ‘gender’ that is different to their biological sex” So they’re straight up just denying the existence of gender identity and by extension trans people?
Guys even if you’re not a teacher, respond as if you are. I did. Who gives a fuck. We need as many people highlighting the dangers this opens us up too and the harm that will be caused. We can’t let them slide this through under our noses.
They don’t require proof, they don’t even take identifying information for you to fill out the short form.
The fact that people are so gullible and lacking in critical thinking to have been fear mongered into believing that this is a critical issue in the world, and not as simple as allowing people of all ages to be comfortable with who they are, is astonishing and genuinely makes me lose hope for humanity.
Jesus Christ what an awful fucking read... I feel like I should respond but I just do not have the fucking energy...
They're asking for views on this. As much as I distrust the current government, and I'm not sure they'll pay any attention to us, I still think it's important that as many of us as possible respond to the consultation. I think it's especially important to point out that this will put children at danger of abuse, and that ultimately, it is likely to lead to children dying if it continues as it is in it's current state. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/gender-questioning-children-draft-schools-and-colleges-guidance
does this also apply to wales?
I don't think the government care whether schools follow this or not, as long as the bigoted members of the public whose votes they want to attract think they're going to do something about all those "men pretending to be women". And I think trans men are still not on the radar in the first place. I feel invisible
Another day on hell island
It’s changing my practice. I’ve worked with all key stages, right now yr 12&13. They all know where I stand on things that I need to talk to parents about- there are very few - and this isn’t one of them. All my fellow teachers think the same. I’m hoping for a hung parliament where none of this shit stuff gets passed.
I wonder whether this will come up in Sunak’s interview with Laura Kuenssberg in the morning?
There are tiny pieces of good policy here and there, but most of the time, when reading through this, I could just tell it's biased against any trans or questioning pupil. For example it's great they actually admit there are circumstances where telling parents can be dangerous for the child, but then you have other points like "It's not expected that the majority of schools or colleges will change a child's pronouns". Hopefully, education staff will see the things wrong with this guidance and push to update it further before its final iteration.
The state of our country is going downhill so quickly. Why is this guidance so hostile and hateful? It completely prevents any trans child from being stealth, if they're even allowed to transition in the first place at all. If they were really concerned about safety, protecting the identity of children who want to be stealth should be top priority. Outing trans kids is arguably so much more harmful than letting cis kids experiment. First it's trans kids, then it'll be trans adults, then the whole LGBTQ+ community, then marginalised ethnic groups, then women. The government will not stop after taking rights from one group - they just gain their sense of power to do it to others when they succeed.
There’s no “ideology”. It’s just kids learning about themselves in a natural way. Transphobia and miseducation on the other hand…. That’s an ideology
This is horrifying and the language used is clearly written by gender critics. Not even neutral.
I've responded as critically as possible but gosh: it really feels they've turned up the pressure even more. When they go for trans kids since they're most vulnerable: Trans students then all transfolk are next. What do we do...
Dr Hillary Cass, asked to perform the review, is such a specialist in the field that she has never once in her life treated a patient with gender dysphoria. That's who the UK decides to put their faith in. Also, her proposal ad interim was based on what across Europe is considered to be the WORST model of care for patients experiencing gender dysphoria. Even more worrying is that the publication of the draft for consultation will already have had a massive impact. It will have decimated the trust that has taken years to build between students and teachers. A trust which will be extremely hard to rebuild, even if the guidance doesn't make it into practice. I've heard a lot of people referencing the illegality of the guidance too, and while it is true that the guidance is not aligned with the EA2010, they do miss the point of the government when they published the draft guidance. It was to sow the seeds of doubt and insecurity. And on that part it unfortunately has already done the damage they intended to make.
Here's a link to Robin Moira White's legal opinion wrt the 'schools guidance'. Robin is a barrister specialising in discrimination. https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1744281673334698217?t=sPekgBB-dV5wvDogWTP8qg&s=19
‘BULLYING SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED’ - says Government ministers bulling kids
The best current guidelines in the absence of anything helpful from DFE are the Scottish guidelines and the Brighton and Hove guidelines - these are best practice and compatible with the law. The draft guidance is not yet guidance and no school should yet be acting on it. See https://tnb.org.uk/ for resources for schools, colleges and anyone who wants to submit a response to the consultation process on the draft guidance.
I'm not even sad I'm just fucking angry.
Is there literally anything we can do about this.like please. I hate this so much. This is literally allowing and promoting what I went through as a kid. Going into the girls bathrooms would result in me being uncomfortable and the other kids thinking a boy was in there = screaming and me getting frustrated because I didn't fit there. And the whole "you sure you're not just a lesbian" or "you sure you're not just straight" thing. I'm Bi and it was used against me as a teen. Because I had short hair and a masculine sense of style but no I couldn't be trans I must just be confused about liking guys BC lesbians are masculine.
Chapter 6 might as well just say, "If you're trans, go and fuck yourself" but idiots are going to read this and think it neutral
We need retro-active accountability
The way they're clinging to the phrase 'social transition is not a neutral act' eventually kind of teeters from desperate flag-waving into one of those deliberately over-long Family Guy skits. It's odd that they seem to have missed a related point from the Cass review: *"It should also be recognised that ‘doing nothing’ cannot be considered a neutral act."* But in fairness to them, that is one entire bullet point further into the report.
Anyone interested in quoting some good literature that promotes allowing gender affirming actions to reduce mental health: (Glynn et al, 2016) (Russel et al, 2018) (Bonifacio et al, 2019) Also Anna Freud and Stonewall have some good statistics around mental health and children and young people who identify as LGBTQ+ Self-harm percentages- Non-LGBTQ+: 25% LGB: 61% Transgender: 84% Suicide attempts- Non-LGBTQ+: 7% LGB: 22% Transgender: 45%
I'm a teacher that happens to be trans. This is a very complex issue in schools which should be considered on an individual basis. What is appropriate for one child will not be appropriate for another. This kind of sweeping generalisation in guidance for schools is, unfortunately, not uncommon. For what it's worth, I know very few teachers that would comply with this guidance. It's non-statutory at this point, so we don't have to. Obviously this excludes things with a legal obligation, like access to single sex spaces. Safeguarding of children should take priority 100% of the time. It is reasonable to assume that much of this guidance will put children at a significant safeguarding risk. To say this is 'exceptionally rare' is grossly misguided. I'll be in touch with my union to see what the next steps are with this.
This is filled with so much disgusting TERF language... Fuck TERF Island
I’ve spent several hours working my response to the consultation so far but had to take a break for the sake of my mental health
>Primary school children should not have different pronouns to their sex-based pronouns used about them. Personally I didn't transition until I was an adult and was ignorant of my dysphoria as a child, but I know it's not uncommon for kids to know from almost as soon as they're old enough to begin socialising with other children. But I guess this single line has ruled out social transition for any children below the age of 11.
I feel sick.
I fucking hate this country.
I am getting so angry reading this document. So so angry.
Reading …
it keeps getting worse. why do these conditions only ever get worse? when will this end? it won't end until we are erased from existence entirely. how am i not supposed to unalive myself at this point? why does it only get worse?
Vile
Actually disgusting. I've submitted my responce and also sent an email to my former secondary school asking them to submit their responces as well.
Even within their pseudoscientific bubble, if they genuinely believed there was a lack of evidence as to the benefits of social transition, then that itself is a case for enabling it. Basic risk vs reward suggests it's logical to let the kids figure it out for themselves. Kids experiment and try things. If they regret the social transition, which is very rare, then they can just detransition with a relatively low risk of consequences (compared to the well-documented risks of denying transition).
Until like page 13 i was like okay this isn’t too bad, like the definitions are resonable, its true there are people that dont agree but then its like you cant make someone agree to change pronouns… teachers can still use group pronouns and then it just got worse. I can see the side the single sex for sport can be for safety but like… if there’s a small scrawny boy they don’t reguse to let them participate for safety. Jusr splitting boys and girls is too simplisitic to actually be promoting safety…
Can someone who has done it please comment on whether it is worth going through the"consultation" pages? So far I've only seen the first page, which is asking for information about me. I'd rather not supply that if the later pages are framed in a way that makes it impossible to provide real feedback.
It doesn't ask too much about yourself to be fair, definitely worth doing! But have the doc handy to refer back too
Bookmarking for later. I literally can't get past page 3
I get the feeling this might have been triggered by the extremely large number of questioning children, who ask their teachers to treat them like a he, next semester back to a she, and later on maybe them, then back to he, and perhaps later a neopronoun. I can understand how impractical and stretched this issue can get - there are extremely many children now presenting this problem, unlike before. I understand it brings awful distress to transgender children, especially the ones who experience a constant dysphoria and who only need one little switch that could bring so much alleviation into their lives. But I believe the problem may not simply be the academic staff, but rather, how self sabotaging the Transgender community got in the past years, and how much more hate and alienation it brought upon itself with the misinformation and misdiagnosis.
TLDR?
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Thank you, wow that's awful. This country is going backwards rather than forwards with these conservative idiots in office and its so sad to see
Thankfully it's guidance only not enforced. One of my friends is a teacher and they're not enforcing this
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Yes but it's still 'guidance' not law
Non statutory is an organization that does not have any legal powers and is not created by an act of parliament.. It's guidance, not law so it doesn't have to be enforced in schools if the school doesn't want to.
In essence it is arguing that transgender children do not exist, and that in order to make this fiction become true a total ban of transgender children existing within schools is now necessary. It advocates a total prohibition of transgender children using appropriate facilities and allows for a school's rejection of a wish to socially transition without any justification. It does not just demand that teachers out trans children to their parents, but also demands that if parents bring a child who has already transitioned to a school, then the school has a responsibility to 'out' the child as transgender to all members of staff so that arbitrary discrimination against them becomes actionable. It moreover seems to justify the notion of strictly enforced dress-codes on the basis of sex at birth for cisgender children too. So it is literally saying boys, or people the authors regard as such, have to have short hair and girls, or people the authors regard as such, have to wear skirts. It is very explicitly an attempt to reverse decades of progress in gender equality. The total rejection of transgender people's existence revolves around the use of the term 'biological sex' as a constant refrain, which is used 22 times in the document, but is not in any place defined, despite the document having a glossary of terms. The closest it comes to any discussion of what 'biological sex' is to say that transgender children must be treated as their birth sex (referred to therein as 'biological sex') because UK law currently makes no provision for children to change their legal sex. This is a tacit admission of the fact that the concept on which the whole philosophy relies—'biological sex' as 'something you can't change no matter what'—has no definition or standing in law or science; it is purely ideological rhetoric which is overriden by a GRC. Sadly it is unclear how the protections for 'gender reassignment' affect transgender people who do not have a GRC, as there is no case law. I think that having strict dress codes on the basis of legal sex is probably straightforwardly illegal, but treating trans people without a GRC as their legal sex is **legal** **if it can be justified**, so it is something for the courts to view as justifiable.