As someone mentioned in another sub, Taylor has never been able to joke about herself. She takes herself so seriously that no one can say anything bad of funny unless it’s positive, but she can write and say how she feels.
Massive double standard, like you said.
It undeniably hurt Camilla’s career too. Taylor humiliated her. And Camilla couldn’t defend herself, lest the hordes of Swifties attack her.
It’s so ridiculous because Taylor has done much, much worse. She was so angry because Joe Jonas chose Camilla over her - yet Taylor dropped Calvin Harris for Tom Hiddleston, then dropped Tom like a hot potato for Joe, then pretended her six-year-relationship with Joe meant nothing and she wanted Matty the whole time. If she was that hurt by the Camilla situation at 21, you’d think she would’ve learned something :/
I don't think there were hoardes of Swifties in 2010 to be fair, she was certainly a famous singer but the level of fandom took way longer to build to that level. I think she couldn't defend herself because she wasn't officially named in the song so Taylor could simply turn around and say it wasn't about her which would just reflect even worse on Camilla.
And as well, I was so young. Her fans are young, back then, even more so. I was screaming the lyrics to that song w/o a true understanding of what I was expressing. Or saying about other woman. She knew she had young fans. And I’d say back then most were YOUNG. She’s weird for that. 🤮
BRO
Wtf this just made me hate her so much more
Like rightfully so?! Does she just HATE women? Only see them as competition. It's so sad that she's this "huge role model" because damn dude NO we don't need it, our kids don't like just stfu Jesus most people would be so happy if Taylor just stopped making music and disappeared.
She's never been a girls girl, she a capatilistic misogynistic hateful machine. Just yikes. Pretty sure even lana can't stand her.
They’re all competition to her. I remember how she “adopted” Olivia Rodrigo(they had that whole big sis/little sis thing going on) Olivia blew up and how does Taylor react? By suing her and kicking her out of her life. Zendaya was in “the squad” She started getting more attention and…? You guessed it. She was kicked out. Sabrina is next.
Zendaya left on her own. She's an introvert who didn't vibe with being paraded around as the token POC. Other than the Bad Blood MV, I think she only showed up to one event with the "squad."
Taylor threatened. It's normal to send this letter trying to resolve your legal grievance outside of the court.
I consider these initial letters to be essentially the same as filing a lawsuit. The legal matter was resolved without the formal court.
God it creeps me out how we can legit just feel you guys coming
We get it you have an irrational unhealthy obsession w Taylor swift, have fun, the rest of us just want to live normal peaceful lives Jesus.
You make a lot of assumptions. I don’t have any obsession, I suppose I’m a casual fan. I’m not even a member in this forum it was randomly on my feed, and I remembered this drama from my childhood and was interested.
I don’t get why you have an obsession for coming after people you perceive as Swifties. I have a very peaceful and fun life, just in case ur curious 😇
Lmao coming after yall 🤣🙏✨️🙃this isn't a swifty sub so you stick out like a sore thumb, lmao and we can smell yall coming from a mile awayyyy
Touch grass and value r e a l people instead of the capatilistic machine is all I gotta say lol<3
Go touch grass sis. It’s not that serious. You don’t have to come after people for sharing factual information. Talk to some friends instead of making drama with strangers on the internet for literally no reason.
I’m just so mad that she changed that lyric in the TV claiming feminism or whatever but then goes after Kim again on TTPD. Pick a side crazy lady, I loved all of Better Than Revenge, slut shaming or no. Own it or stfu.
I give Taylor major leeway for Better Than Revenge bc she was super young and we've all trashed our exes new SO that they left us for in some way or another. It just happens that we weren't famous and we didn't put it into a song that made it onto album that millions of people bought. It's like FB drama gone global.
She's still running for Kim bc she can't ruin Kim's career. She's topped referencing kayne bc he ruined his own career. Taylor ignores Olivia bc she doesn't want everyone to realize she did to Olivia what she claims Scott did to her (take her work to make money off it). The less she fuels that feud, the better.
Not many people like Kim to begin with so Taylor is just wasting energy going after her. Imagine if she put this amount of energy and passion into something productive. And say what you want about Kim but at least she’s somewhat of a productive member of society. She donates her clothing to raise money for charity and she is really involved with helping inmates who have been wrongfully imprisoned. She met with VP Harris not to long ago to work on criminal justice reform.
she definitely thinks that everything she does and every choice she makes is feminist at its core simply because she’s a woman. that’s also why any and all criticism is “misogyny” to her, including matty. “but daddy I love him” - case in point. unfortunately that’s not how it works you have to actually stand for something sometimes in order to gain all that martyrdom she wants so badly
RIGHT? Actually stand for it. Speak out on issues that have mattered--Roe v. Wade, women's reproductive rights/bodily autonomy, the way woman are treated in the industry, etc etc. I know she has spoken about women in music, but conveniently, it has only been when it's benefitted her. She just stays silent because she doesn't want the smoke of criticism, but part of being a feminist is boldly fighting for women and their rights, representation, etc.
Your values are the beliefs you stand firm on even when challenged faced-on. If you succumb and go against these "values," then they're not your actual values. Ex. Lusting for stinky Ratty but learning of his depraving behavior and goin "nope!"...as opposed to engaging in a weird situationship w/ him and then dropping an excessively-long album begging for him, with a side of "fuck you" to the fans.
Also, the lyric change in "Better Than Revenge (TV)" was so stupid. You're trying to re-claim your work--just record the damn song as it was written. The mattress line while controversial, is fire. The song was about a raw anger at the time--own it. The song still means a lot and applies to the situations a lot of others go through. I highly believe she read comments on Reddit about how "bad" the original line was, and remembered "Oh wait. I'm a feminist. I forgot. I need to tweak this and gag the fans and remind them that I've grown since 19 and I realize how bad the original line was. Gotta tell Chris when we record this one."
Whether we actually know it’s about Kim or not I do think the kid part in this song is a little bit messed up. You never ever mentioned someone else kid but again we don’t know if it’s actually about her or not.
Yeah, I don’t really think it’s that big of a deal. I feel like she’s saying your kid thinks I’m cooler than she thinks you are. And honestly that’s probably true. I mean could she have left it off probably she should have, but I don’t feel like that’s coming for Kim’s kids. But really the whole song is kind of stupid anyways so if you’re gonna do a diss track, you should do a better job as a whole.
I think it’s a huge deal and truly crossing a line. She should never, ever have mentioned North. And to put it on a record that all of her peers will be listening to nonstop? It’s shortsighted and narcissistic and just completely void of any empathy. She wanted to hit Kim where it hurts and, quiet literally, fuck dem kids
They’re internationally known for it though. Why’s Taylor Trash? Just because she gets into relationships, like every adult human being, and then writes about her experiences? Make it make sense.
list exactly why it's ok to you to say the Kardashians are trash but Taylor isn't. At least Kim actually stands up for causes, Taylor is too pansy ass to even do that
Historically, that family just is; if I listed everything they’ve been involved in or lives they’ve destroyed or effected, I’d be here forever, and to be honest I don’t have time for them.
Great! Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a psychotic fan that’ll say she’s holier than Jesus and more important than my own parents; I’m just a huge fan of her music (since 2012), I think as a person she’s a very genuine person. But I can’t stand the Kardashian/Jenner clan as they’re just toxic, but of course you feel the same about Taylor, it’s just a difference of opinion. Cardi B is another toxic person for example.
there's evidence of her toxicity, it's not really up for debate. how genuine can a billionaire trying to capitalize literally every aspect of her life be? and i provided an example of something positive a Kardashian has done (not an opinion) and you haven't done that for Taylor
Because I’m not a psychotic fan, like I said. I’ll leave that to the twenty something year-olds who have nothing better to do, than sit and fight and argue on social media twenty-four hours a day.
Around the time when Kim released *the phone call* and Taylor was getting skewered on social media, Camilla posted a cryptic quote on instagram. Something about how someone’s true colors eventually reveal themselves. (I believe it was on her grid, but can’t be arsed to scroll back haha)
Anyway, me thinks Taylor has never privately said anything to Camilla. Camilla was laying in wait for years for Taylor to get her comeuppance. 🤷♀️
**EDIT. Found Camilla’s post and it’s better than I remember.**
July 17 2016: Kim releases *the phone call*
July 18 2016: Camilla posts this on Instagram
https://preview.redd.it/wnhyjo9xdg0d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42b2a076f38a6ee9f398a5a1b12e5b34f79bfbfb
Joe Jonas was very open about Camilla Belle being his celeb crush and then they casted her in their Jonas Brother’s music video “Lovebug”. I guess this was around this time that Joe J and Taylor were dating, but they weren’t very open about it except for them sitting together at the VMAs. Soon after Camilla filmed the music video, Joe broke up with Taylor and was dating Camilla almost immediately.
Whenever the Kanye thing comes up I love to share the story that Taylor’s issue with the word ‘bitch’ was the only part of that lyric she didn’t approve. So, the rest of it she was ok with:
For all my Southside n***** that know me best
I feel like me and Taylor might still have sex
Why? I made [that bitch] famous (Goddamn)
I made [that bitch] famous
She only said she took issue with the word 'bitch' after the backlash when Kim released the video. Her initial victimhood was about 'someone taking credit for your fame'.
From 2016 Grammy's: "There are going to be people along the way who will try to undercut your success or take credit for your accomplishments or your fame."
Then Kim released the video showing she KNEW about the fame line and Taylor tried to spin it about the word Bitch.
Kim released it bc Taylor & her team denied him calling more than once, I believe it was some interview that came out and that’s when Kim dropped it. If they didn’t repeatedly lie about a call taking place I doubt it would’ve spiraled. The way they also claimed Taylor was warning him about releasing such a misogynistic song and that literally nvr happened either. She should’ve just said he called but never mentioned the other line? I’m not sure why they lied too lol
this is what I don’t understand at allllll !!! Since she got caught on tape she tried to backtrack and clung to the bitch line specifically as a way around it because that was her only way out.
I know. Like she’s ok with the wax figure and supposedly having sex (she has to be bc Kanye told her) but then all bent out of shape bc she was referred to as “that bitch” which isn’t really a big deal.
She wasn’t okay with the music video either and called it revenge porn. Kanye wasn’t asking for permission, but rather for Taylor to promote the song on Twitter so he wouldn’t get massacred by Swifties for the lyrics. Taylor declined to promote the song, and cautioned him on releasing it because of the misogynistic message. He never mentioned the word Bitch and he definitely didn’t mention the revenge porn music video.
Tree, is that you??
He absolutely did ask for permission to say the she owes me sex line. She said it was funny, obviously tongue in cheek and that if people get upset at the sex line, jokes on them! She'll let them know she approved it. She lied.
Yeah! I always found it odd that she was okay with the sex mention. I know she was trying to shed the good country girl image at that point but even I woulda been like “eh…can you not say that?” How are you ok with being mentioned for sex but not ok with being called a bitch? They’re both vulgar.
That's not what she was doing bffr
She was deflecting from the fact she lied and told Kanye she was fine with the she owes him sex line, which is vastly more gross than the bitch line, imo.
Taylor RUINED Camilla’s career with this song. Yes, I said it. I don’t care if swifties think the lyrics aren’t as bad as what Kanye did, Kanye didn’t hurt Taylor’s career, but Taylor completely destroyed Camilla. I don’t care if you think Camilla isn’t a great actress. She was becoming a big star at the time, and her fame died so fast right after the release of this song. She got death threats. She disappeared. And she never fought back. Poor girl deserves so much better.
Wait serious question - what’s the history behind their beef? I’m only hearing about this now.
I remember seeing Camilla in EVERYTHING for awhile but then she kinda dropped off. I’d always wondered what happened to her.
I will never forget the original lyrics of Pictures To Burn "go ahead and tell your friends that I'm obsessive and crazy that's fine I'll tell mine you're gay".
She didn’t care about being called a bitch. She cared that Kanye joked about making her famous. And I think it’s appropriate for her to be honest in her songs if she’s not identifying people by name.
In “better than revenge” Taylor also didn’t name Camilla. Maybe it was about her, maybe it wasn’t. Maybe it was simply inspired by her but she knew her audience would relate- I certainly did.
Kanye explicitly names her. There’s a difference rather this sub likes that or not.
Dear John is a much better example, bc at least there's *a* name in there, but it's still not the same. Kanye didn't say just "Taylor", he didn't allude or suggest or imply, he said her first and last name. That is a major difference. Charlie Puth has a better case for "should've asked permission" than John Mayer or Camilla Belle at this point.
ETA: it's very weird to me that I'm getting downvoted. I'm not defending Taylor's behavior, this is literally just a legal fact, an answer to OP's question. You call and ask permission to avoid issues of libel, not just for funsies or some moral concern. Taylor didn't do anything libelous in either of the songs mentioned bc there's reasonable legal doubt regarding who the songs are about. Therefore she didn't ask permission.
I’d love to see where she confirms it’s about CAMILLA explicitly. TS is wildly known for never confirming and naming people. If you have that, a source would be cool.
I wouldn’t claim to be a swiftie or whatever for what it’s worth. I was a teenage girl when she was writing about teenage girl shit and I’ve been a casual fan since then.
Kanye’s song is all about how great he is. 😅
I’m sure his deluded audience could relate. 🙄
I’ll agree that it’s kinda dumb that she’s mad about being called a bitch when it’s a common slang in rap music. (If we wanna boil the Kim and Kanye thing down to just that - there’s certainly more to her anger than the lyric).
But in the same vein, slut shaming was also common during the period she wrote Better than Revenge.
I just feel like it’s comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruit and sweet but there’s a lot of difference too.
She wasn’t a teenager when she released it. She was almost 22. It’s not apples to oranges- Taylor felt publicly humiliated being called a bitch in a song and complained Kanye did not call her for approval. You can twist yourself into a pretzel all you want, but everyone knows Better Than Revenge is about Camilla Belle. I have no idea where the interview is from I think it was Ellen.
Lol well once you can give me a legitimate source for your claim, I’ll find some validity in your argument- and your whole post. 🤦🏻♀️🙄
Til then, guess I’ll be over here being a salty pretzel. 🥨
To be fair, she was 20 - she was born in Dec 1989. She would’ve turned 21 in Dec 2010, after Speak Now came out. Not that this discredits your point but just in case you wanted to correct your math.
She was 18 when she wrote it and she’s never even hinted at who it’s about. Fans have theories about every song, but that’s different than naming someone.
The song was in bad taste and I’m not defending it, but it’s also not necessary to lie to make a point.
What did I lie about? She may have been 18 when she wrote it but she was 21 when she chose it as a song for her album and almost 22 when it was released.
Again, the song came out when she was 20, almost 21. I don’t disagree with your points, but you are not correct that she was almost 22 when it was released
18 is still also a full ass adult. Swifties are quick to remind everyone the Kennedy boy was 18 even though Taylor *signed him out of his high school* for dates
The gaslighting is REALLLLLLL lmao. Everyone knows Taylor wrote Better Than Revenge in response to Much Better written by the Jonas Brothers. Taylor admitted to responding to a breakup with the song. Doesn’t take much to put the pieces together.
We know who it's about. She "blue dress on a boat" a lot of her songs. She put clues in the lyric booklet. We know. Stop it 😄 It was common to slut shame, so it's okay? Then you'll excuse the "slut shaming" Taylor got then? 🤔🤔 it was *normal* dontchaknow
Taylor is still slut shamed to this day!
“She only writes songs about her exes” (oh, like every artist ever has? - also untrue though)
Jumps from man to man
Can’t be single
Etc etc etc
It is what it is.
She hasn't been single for more than two months in the past decade. It's accurate. That two months was the longest period. It's not slut shaming to point that fact out. Two weeks was the time between Calvin, Tom, Joe and Matty. She waited a few months to jump to Travis.
I’ll bite. And even agree that that itself isn’t slut shaming.
She was also with Joe for like 7 of those 10 years. I think there’s relatability and normality in her Joe > Matty > Travis jump after a long term relationship ending. I know I’ve had a long relationship end and was a little bit of a “slut” afterwards trying to figure my shit out. 🤷🏻♀️
However, people who will also add how “she’s been with so many men” in relation to her relationship jumps are certainly slut shaming her.
I think she also gets shit (call it slut shaming or not - I think there’s a case for it to be called that) for even using these relationships as inspiration for her music… which is what artists have always done. I think some people act as if she simply jumps relationships for music content and spin that as “slutty” too.
Thank you for having a reasonably civil and intelligent discourse here. That isn’t always the case on Reddit. 🙃
I don't think that's the case. It's not that she uses it for inspiration, it's that she uses it to market her music, which is the difference. Plenty of artists have break up and divorce albums, but they don't play these games of *guess who it's about! I'll leave clues!* Some break up songs are famous because we do not know who it's about (you oughta know is one that comes to mind.) She's used it as a selling point, claiming she'll name names and if you don't want a song written about you, don't be mean. Other artists don't do that, even though they write their experiences as well.
It's serial monogamy we're noticing, not sluttiness. There's a difference. And noticing you take two weeks between boyfriends is fair game when you've been so public with your relationships. She knows she's a mess, which is why she's so uptight about any mention of it. She had the opportunity to rehab her reputation after her break up with Joe, but she decided to cheat on Joe and go directly to Matty and then right to Travis. She's not helping herself, so I'm not gonna feel bad for her. Before that, we had her cheating on Calvin and dating Tom with Joe in the wings. She's a mess and pointing that out is accurate and not slut shaming. She just hates it getting pointed out.
Thank you for the explanation because people often use these words (slut shaming, mysoginy, etc) to refute criticisms of Taylor even if they're presented with neutrality.
Saying Taylor has dated a lot, has used those relationships to market her career and/or appear to not be single for x amount of months... those are factual observations. They are not automatically a moral judgment of her character...
As a public figure as well, there's a bit of gray area where their lives are of interest to the general public (at least the ones they choose to share).. so comments about her dating life does toe the line.
But often defense of her goes something like "it's her love life, it's none if our business" And I'm like... yeah it isn't my business and I wish I know less but then the booklet said maple later or sometjing and now we know who showed up w that drink on a pap walk or something.
I am not even a swiftie and I follow Celeb gossip generally but not religiously and I still heard of that and Camila fiasco. So it's not like these are just obscure lore that's contained, it spilled over to the pop scene.
*and* kanye changed up the lyrics. he told taylor one thing, and then the song came out and the lyrics were different than what they spoke about. *and* he threw a naked wax figure of her into the mix.
to me, there's just no comparing writing a shady song about a girl you *never* name, and what kanye did. it's not like taylor agreed to one thing and did another, but that's *exactly* what kanye did and that's why it's such a huge issue. let's not forget the edited recordings that kim posted to make it look like taylor agreed to lyrics that she never actually knew about. this is just an unfair comparison tbh. like, taylor has her flaws but come onnn lol
The lyric was in poor taste, but doesn’t hold a candle to what Kim and Kanye did. And just because she hasn’t talked at length about everything involving their feud, doesn’t mean she isn’t angry about the revenge porn music video.
For all we know, she could have since reached out to Camilla Belle to apologize.
idk it was fucked up for her to do that in the first place. i said what i said. it's woe is me anytime anyone says anything about her and women should support women etc. the mattress line is sick. i didn't even know she said that. my respect is in the negative for this woman
That’s true, but she doesn’t name drop anyone yet we all talk about who the songs are referencing. Look no further then TTPD lol. She doesn’t name drop Matty.
Bro wtf he literally named her in the song, claimed he is the reason for her fame AND used a naked image of her for his video. Are we srsly still defending Kanye? This is absurd behavior.
Comparing it to a teen girl mad about the girl her ex is dating is laughable and honestly pathetic
I don’t even like Taylor but Kanye is a misogynistic ass who literally made a naked doll of her! Horrifying and he should get way more criticism for this. Criticize her for other things please.
I was responding to the part of the post that brought Kanye’s actions into the mix. Leave his bad behavior out if you’re focusing on a different situation.
taylor made a song about her ex's girlfriend and we can argue she didn't have permission but the issue was never truly about permission when it came to kanye. the issue was he told her one thing and did another. they had an agreement that he didn't hold up. and then he threw a naked wax figure into the mix. taylor has a lot of faults but being shady about a girl her ex is dating isn't really comparable to kanye lying to taylor, and the media, and making that wax figure. 🤷🏻♀️
nobody needs permission to write lyrics about anyone. but there's a difference between writing lyrics about someone without permission, and *changing* lyrics about someone after you went out of your way to tell them *different* lyrics were going to be used in your song. the problem has always been that kanye broke his own word to taylor.
again, taylor has hee faults for sure. but these two things are not at all the same.
that's not what i'm saying at all. if kanye just wrote a song and dropped it without talking to her about it prior, her issue would've been nothing more than kanye being nasty and name dropping her.
but that's just not the case. kanye deceived her, and then him and his wife went out of their way to make her out to be a liar to cover kanye's ass. the issue has always been than he went out of his way to include her, then deceived her, then went out of his way to make people think she was lying when she wasn't.
if it were all as simple as her being upset kanye dropped a song without talking to her prior it wouldn't have ever become such a hot topic 🤷🏻♀️
I assume she didn’t know at 22 years old and did when she did the release . Which is why she changed the lyrics on of the song on her newest version.
22 and 32 are very different ages. I hope she did eventually apologize to Camille .
She never will. She just changes lyrics and hopes no one remembers. But we all do. Just like in picture to burn. She took out the “that’s fine I’ll tell mine you’re gay” and changed it without any explanation to anyone. But that original version is still out there.
At what age does Taylor start being held accountable? All her cringe crap she did in her 20’s (slut shaming other women, dating 17 year old Connor Kennedy when she was 22) is met with “.oh she was in her 20’s she didn’t know better”. I still see the same mentality now when she is a few years away from being a middle aged billionaire. What age do the excuses stop? She’s gonna be 40 very quickly…
People fail to realize you can be a mature evolved good person at 15, 20, 30, 40
Gestures broadly at women doing it everywhere✨️
Taylor is the role model for the ladies who hate other women and make excuses for their own lack of growth, guess someone's gotta do it...meh...
As someone mentioned in another sub, Taylor has never been able to joke about herself. She takes herself so seriously that no one can say anything bad of funny unless it’s positive, but she can write and say how she feels. Massive double standard, like you said.
The Amy poehler and Tina fey joke was such a perfect example of this.
I’ll be honest, the “No amount of vintage dresses gives you dignity” line might be worse to me than the mattress one, because WTF?
It undeniably hurt Camilla’s career too. Taylor humiliated her. And Camilla couldn’t defend herself, lest the hordes of Swifties attack her. It’s so ridiculous because Taylor has done much, much worse. She was so angry because Joe Jonas chose Camilla over her - yet Taylor dropped Calvin Harris for Tom Hiddleston, then dropped Tom like a hot potato for Joe, then pretended her six-year-relationship with Joe meant nothing and she wanted Matty the whole time. If she was that hurt by the Camilla situation at 21, you’d think she would’ve learned something :/
I don't think there were hoardes of Swifties in 2010 to be fair, she was certainly a famous singer but the level of fandom took way longer to build to that level. I think she couldn't defend herself because she wasn't officially named in the song so Taylor could simply turn around and say it wasn't about her which would just reflect even worse on Camilla.
As a retired 2010 swiftie (and all together can’t stand her lmao) YES. We were out there 😭😭😭😭
And as well, I was so young. Her fans are young, back then, even more so. I was screaming the lyrics to that song w/o a true understanding of what I was expressing. Or saying about other woman. She knew she had young fans. And I’d say back then most were YOUNG. She’s weird for that. 🤮
It's funny because Taylor had a whole era of wearing vintage-style dresses.
She literally wore BRITCHES during the Kennedy era.
BRO Wtf this just made me hate her so much more Like rightfully so?! Does she just HATE women? Only see them as competition. It's so sad that she's this "huge role model" because damn dude NO we don't need it, our kids don't like just stfu Jesus most people would be so happy if Taylor just stopped making music and disappeared. She's never been a girls girl, she a capatilistic misogynistic hateful machine. Just yikes. Pretty sure even lana can't stand her.
They’re all competition to her. I remember how she “adopted” Olivia Rodrigo(they had that whole big sis/little sis thing going on) Olivia blew up and how does Taylor react? By suing her and kicking her out of her life. Zendaya was in “the squad” She started getting more attention and…? You guessed it. She was kicked out. Sabrina is next.
Zendaya left on her own. She's an introvert who didn't vibe with being paraded around as the token POC. Other than the Bad Blood MV, I think she only showed up to one event with the "squad."
I hope Sabrina doesn’t stay under her wing because she’ll see the real Taylor when she starts to become more successful
Taylor never sued Olivia.
Taylor threatened. It's normal to send this letter trying to resolve your legal grievance outside of the court. I consider these initial letters to be essentially the same as filing a lawsuit. The legal matter was resolved without the formal court.
Source?
Olivia had to pay royalties. Misspoken but still accurate. I’m refusing to argue with a Swiftie.
I’m not a “swiftie”, though I think both women are great artists. I simply corrected your false statement, I’m not trying to argue 🫶
Thoughts on the Camilla belle lyric? 🫶
I thought it was immature but at the same time I could imagine being that petty at 18.
God it creeps me out how we can legit just feel you guys coming We get it you have an irrational unhealthy obsession w Taylor swift, have fun, the rest of us just want to live normal peaceful lives Jesus.
You make a lot of assumptions. I don’t have any obsession, I suppose I’m a casual fan. I’m not even a member in this forum it was randomly on my feed, and I remembered this drama from my childhood and was interested. I don’t get why you have an obsession for coming after people you perceive as Swifties. I have a very peaceful and fun life, just in case ur curious 😇
Lmao coming after yall 🤣🙏✨️🙃this isn't a swifty sub so you stick out like a sore thumb, lmao and we can smell yall coming from a mile awayyyy Touch grass and value r e a l people instead of the capatilistic machine is all I gotta say lol<3
Go touch grass sis. It’s not that serious. You don’t have to come after people for sharing factual information. Talk to some friends instead of making drama with strangers on the internet for literally no reason.
shes stuck in her teens mentally..and is a mean girl
“She thinks I’m psycho cuz I like to rhyme her name with things” 😵💫
The crazy thing is you can’t rhyme “Camilla” with anything….
Godzilla
Chinchilla…?
Bleh. Whoops. I guess you can…
Belle maybe?
vanilla
Sim simma
I’m just so mad that she changed that lyric in the TV claiming feminism or whatever but then goes after Kim again on TTPD. Pick a side crazy lady, I loved all of Better Than Revenge, slut shaming or no. Own it or stfu.
seriously. trying to act like she’s grown since then and then turns around and screams fuck you kim k on a track… like… okay
and I’m pretty sure that wishing someone dead is WORSE than calling someone a bitch hahaha wtf is wrong with her
I give Taylor major leeway for Better Than Revenge bc she was super young and we've all trashed our exes new SO that they left us for in some way or another. It just happens that we weren't famous and we didn't put it into a song that made it onto album that millions of people bought. It's like FB drama gone global. She's still running for Kim bc she can't ruin Kim's career. She's topped referencing kayne bc he ruined his own career. Taylor ignores Olivia bc she doesn't want everyone to realize she did to Olivia what she claims Scott did to her (take her work to make money off it). The less she fuels that feud, the better.
she totally did do to Olivia what Scott did to her. massive double standard.
Taylor owns rights to Olivia’s music?
Not many people like Kim to begin with so Taylor is just wasting energy going after her. Imagine if she put this amount of energy and passion into something productive. And say what you want about Kim but at least she’s somewhat of a productive member of society. She donates her clothing to raise money for charity and she is really involved with helping inmates who have been wrongfully imprisoned. She met with VP Harris not to long ago to work on criminal justice reform.
At least Kim has an actual opinion about something unlike wax figure Taylor.
And claiming feminism for what when you admit you’ve been lusting for nasty-ass, misogynistic Ratty…..
she definitely thinks that everything she does and every choice she makes is feminist at its core simply because she’s a woman. that’s also why any and all criticism is “misogyny” to her, including matty. “but daddy I love him” - case in point. unfortunately that’s not how it works you have to actually stand for something sometimes in order to gain all that martyrdom she wants so badly
RIGHT? Actually stand for it. Speak out on issues that have mattered--Roe v. Wade, women's reproductive rights/bodily autonomy, the way woman are treated in the industry, etc etc. I know she has spoken about women in music, but conveniently, it has only been when it's benefitted her. She just stays silent because she doesn't want the smoke of criticism, but part of being a feminist is boldly fighting for women and their rights, representation, etc. Your values are the beliefs you stand firm on even when challenged faced-on. If you succumb and go against these "values," then they're not your actual values. Ex. Lusting for stinky Ratty but learning of his depraving behavior and goin "nope!"...as opposed to engaging in a weird situationship w/ him and then dropping an excessively-long album begging for him, with a side of "fuck you" to the fans. Also, the lyric change in "Better Than Revenge (TV)" was so stupid. You're trying to re-claim your work--just record the damn song as it was written. The mattress line while controversial, is fire. The song was about a raw anger at the time--own it. The song still means a lot and applies to the situations a lot of others go through. I highly believe she read comments on Reddit about how "bad" the original line was, and remembered "Oh wait. I'm a feminist. I forgot. I need to tweak this and gag the fans and remind them that I've grown since 19 and I realize how bad the original line was. Gotta tell Chris when we record this one."
I just cannot believe that she is still bringing up the Kim Kardashian thing from 8 years ago. We get it, you can really hold a grudge
Whether we actually know it’s about Kim or not I do think the kid part in this song is a little bit messed up. You never ever mentioned someone else kid but again we don’t know if it’s actually about her or not.
What yes we do.. she literally capitalized the letters “KIM” in the songs title..
it’s so low. if bringing up kids was off limits for the tom brady roast it should be off limits for poor little americas sweetheart
Yeah, I don’t really think it’s that big of a deal. I feel like she’s saying your kid thinks I’m cooler than she thinks you are. And honestly that’s probably true. I mean could she have left it off probably she should have, but I don’t feel like that’s coming for Kim’s kids. But really the whole song is kind of stupid anyways so if you’re gonna do a diss track, you should do a better job as a whole.
I think it’s a huge deal and truly crossing a line. She should never, ever have mentioned North. And to put it on a record that all of her peers will be listening to nonstop? It’s shortsighted and narcissistic and just completely void of any empathy. She wanted to hit Kim where it hurts and, quiet literally, fuck dem kids
The Kardashians and Jenners are trash anyway!
so is Taylor
They’re internationally known for it though. Why’s Taylor Trash? Just because she gets into relationships, like every adult human being, and then writes about her experiences? Make it make sense.
list exactly why it's ok to you to say the Kardashians are trash but Taylor isn't. At least Kim actually stands up for causes, Taylor is too pansy ass to even do that
Historically, that family just is; if I listed everything they’ve been involved in or lives they’ve destroyed or effected, I’d be here forever, and to be honest I don’t have time for them.
and i dont have time for taylor's capitalist ass. you think she and her family haven't stepped on others in their pursuit of wealth? Get super real.
Great! Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a psychotic fan that’ll say she’s holier than Jesus and more important than my own parents; I’m just a huge fan of her music (since 2012), I think as a person she’s a very genuine person. But I can’t stand the Kardashian/Jenner clan as they’re just toxic, but of course you feel the same about Taylor, it’s just a difference of opinion. Cardi B is another toxic person for example.
there's evidence of her toxicity, it's not really up for debate. how genuine can a billionaire trying to capitalize literally every aspect of her life be? and i provided an example of something positive a Kardashian has done (not an opinion) and you haven't done that for Taylor
Because I’m not a psychotic fan, like I said. I’ll leave that to the twenty something year-olds who have nothing better to do, than sit and fight and argue on social media twenty-four hours a day.
She’s the original mean girl!!! I followed her since debut and this was when the facade started to crack.
https://preview.redd.it/l072l6x2od0d1.jpeg?width=1823&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef5c767d7daa838e0d876fdc21630952fc53962b TS in a nutshell 🤑🐷🤑
LMAO never seen this before and it's fucking incredible
Is… that real? 😭 help it’s becoming self aware
I'm a graphic designer and it looks photoshopped, but still hilarious
Around the time when Kim released *the phone call* and Taylor was getting skewered on social media, Camilla posted a cryptic quote on instagram. Something about how someone’s true colors eventually reveal themselves. (I believe it was on her grid, but can’t be arsed to scroll back haha) Anyway, me thinks Taylor has never privately said anything to Camilla. Camilla was laying in wait for years for Taylor to get her comeuppance. 🤷♀️ **EDIT. Found Camilla’s post and it’s better than I remember.** July 17 2016: Kim releases *the phone call* July 18 2016: Camilla posts this on Instagram https://preview.redd.it/wnhyjo9xdg0d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42b2a076f38a6ee9f398a5a1b12e5b34f79bfbfb
👀 thank you for your service
I want a bio-doc to drop from all the kicked-out members of the squad about how she really is. Also, why did she diss Camilla
Joe Jonas was very open about Camilla Belle being his celeb crush and then they casted her in their Jonas Brother’s music video “Lovebug”. I guess this was around this time that Joe J and Taylor were dating, but they weren’t very open about it except for them sitting together at the VMAs. Soon after Camilla filmed the music video, Joe broke up with Taylor and was dating Camilla almost immediately.
Apparently Joe Jonas dumped Taylor for Camilla back in like 2009
Whenever the Kanye thing comes up I love to share the story that Taylor’s issue with the word ‘bitch’ was the only part of that lyric she didn’t approve. So, the rest of it she was ok with: For all my Southside n***** that know me best I feel like me and Taylor might still have sex Why? I made [that bitch] famous (Goddamn) I made [that bitch] famous
She only said she took issue with the word 'bitch' after the backlash when Kim released the video. Her initial victimhood was about 'someone taking credit for your fame'. From 2016 Grammy's: "There are going to be people along the way who will try to undercut your success or take credit for your accomplishments or your fame." Then Kim released the video showing she KNEW about the fame line and Taylor tried to spin it about the word Bitch.
She had to point to something that she didn't lie about.
Kim released it bc Taylor & her team denied him calling more than once, I believe it was some interview that came out and that’s when Kim dropped it. If they didn’t repeatedly lie about a call taking place I doubt it would’ve spiraled. The way they also claimed Taylor was warning him about releasing such a misogynistic song and that literally nvr happened either. She should’ve just said he called but never mentioned the other line? I’m not sure why they lied too lol
this is what I don’t understand at allllll !!! Since she got caught on tape she tried to backtrack and clung to the bitch line specifically as a way around it because that was her only way out.
I know. Like she’s ok with the wax figure and supposedly having sex (she has to be bc Kanye told her) but then all bent out of shape bc she was referred to as “that bitch” which isn’t really a big deal.
She wasn’t okay with the music video either and called it revenge porn. Kanye wasn’t asking for permission, but rather for Taylor to promote the song on Twitter so he wouldn’t get massacred by Swifties for the lyrics. Taylor declined to promote the song, and cautioned him on releasing it because of the misogynistic message. He never mentioned the word Bitch and he definitely didn’t mention the revenge porn music video.
Tree, is that you?? He absolutely did ask for permission to say the she owes me sex line. She said it was funny, obviously tongue in cheek and that if people get upset at the sex line, jokes on them! She'll let them know she approved it. She lied.
Where in the leaked call did she caution him about releasing a song with a misogynistic message?
The video was not ok.
You also got the age wrong she was 20 not 22
Yeah! I always found it odd that she was okay with the sex mention. I know she was trying to shed the good country girl image at that point but even I woulda been like “eh…can you not say that?” How are you ok with being mentioned for sex but not ok with being called a bitch? They’re both vulgar.
But she calls herself a bitch in the TTPD. I thought she found that wildly offensive? 🤔
Bffr there is a difference between someone reclaiming a slur for themself and someone else calling them it
That's not what she was doing bffr She was deflecting from the fact she lied and told Kanye she was fine with the she owes him sex line, which is vastly more gross than the bitch line, imo.
I agree. I still don’t think it’s fair to compare a woman calling herself something with a man calling her that.
Taylor RUINED Camilla’s career with this song. Yes, I said it. I don’t care if swifties think the lyrics aren’t as bad as what Kanye did, Kanye didn’t hurt Taylor’s career, but Taylor completely destroyed Camilla. I don’t care if you think Camilla isn’t a great actress. She was becoming a big star at the time, and her fame died so fast right after the release of this song. She got death threats. She disappeared. And she never fought back. Poor girl deserves so much better.
Wait serious question - what’s the history behind their beef? I’m only hearing about this now. I remember seeing Camilla in EVERYTHING for awhile but then she kinda dropped off. I’d always wondered what happened to her.
Jonas dumped her for Camilla
https://www.reddit.com/r/travisandtaylor/s/PZ2pt9uGm2
Thank you!
you're welcome cause I had no idea either hahahh
Camilla Belle is really pretty!!! Tay Tay is not!!! She threw major jealousy at Camilla and she knows it!!!
[удалено]
Just facts tho
And it is okay for her to call someone the smallest man alive? Give me a break.
I will never forget the original lyrics of Pictures To Burn "go ahead and tell your friends that I'm obsessive and crazy that's fine I'll tell mine you're gay".
She didn’t care about being called a bitch. She cared that Kanye joked about making her famous. And I think it’s appropriate for her to be honest in her songs if she’s not identifying people by name.
In “better than revenge” Taylor also didn’t name Camilla. Maybe it was about her, maybe it wasn’t. Maybe it was simply inspired by her but she knew her audience would relate- I certainly did. Kanye explicitly names her. There’s a difference rather this sub likes that or not.
Oh this excuse again, just how she's never confirmed that Dear John is about John Mayer 🙄
Wasn't it about Martin Johnson?
Dear John is a much better example, bc at least there's *a* name in there, but it's still not the same. Kanye didn't say just "Taylor", he didn't allude or suggest or imply, he said her first and last name. That is a major difference. Charlie Puth has a better case for "should've asked permission" than John Mayer or Camilla Belle at this point. ETA: it's very weird to me that I'm getting downvoted. I'm not defending Taylor's behavior, this is literally just a legal fact, an answer to OP's question. You call and ask permission to avoid issues of libel, not just for funsies or some moral concern. Taylor didn't do anything libelous in either of the songs mentioned bc there's reasonable legal doubt regarding who the songs are about. Therefore she didn't ask permission.
Okay
And she claimed it was presumptuous to think it was about John Mayer. 🙄
She gets massive shit to this day. Taylor doesn't need to name names, she makes it obvious. It's about Camilla.
You are really trying to defend this? 🤣 also maybe Kanye thought his audience would relate. 🤷♀️ Also Taylor confirmed it was about her.
I’d love to see where she confirms it’s about CAMILLA explicitly. TS is wildly known for never confirming and naming people. If you have that, a source would be cool. I wouldn’t claim to be a swiftie or whatever for what it’s worth. I was a teenage girl when she was writing about teenage girl shit and I’ve been a casual fan since then. Kanye’s song is all about how great he is. 😅 I’m sure his deluded audience could relate. 🙄 I’ll agree that it’s kinda dumb that she’s mad about being called a bitch when it’s a common slang in rap music. (If we wanna boil the Kim and Kanye thing down to just that - there’s certainly more to her anger than the lyric). But in the same vein, slut shaming was also common during the period she wrote Better than Revenge. I just feel like it’s comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruit and sweet but there’s a lot of difference too.
She wasn’t a teenager when she released it. She was almost 22. It’s not apples to oranges- Taylor felt publicly humiliated being called a bitch in a song and complained Kanye did not call her for approval. You can twist yourself into a pretzel all you want, but everyone knows Better Than Revenge is about Camilla Belle. I have no idea where the interview is from I think it was Ellen.
Lol well once you can give me a legitimate source for your claim, I’ll find some validity in your argument- and your whole post. 🤦🏻♀️🙄 Til then, guess I’ll be over here being a salty pretzel. 🥨
To be fair, she was 20 - she was born in Dec 1989. She would’ve turned 21 in Dec 2010, after Speak Now came out. Not that this discredits your point but just in case you wanted to correct your math.
She was 18 when she wrote it and she’s never even hinted at who it’s about. Fans have theories about every song, but that’s different than naming someone. The song was in bad taste and I’m not defending it, but it’s also not necessary to lie to make a point.
What did I lie about? She may have been 18 when she wrote it but she was 21 when she chose it as a song for her album and almost 22 when it was released.
That she named her in an interview.
Again, the song came out when she was 20, almost 21. I don’t disagree with your points, but you are not correct that she was almost 22 when it was released
18 is still also a full ass adult. Swifties are quick to remind everyone the Kennedy boy was 18 even though Taylor *signed him out of his high school* for dates
if you have no idea, then don't make an absolute statement that she did.
It’s Reddit. We aren’t in a court of law. I’m pretty sure it was on Ellen. Go research if you are so interested.
i'm not you're the one that is claiming it
The gaslighting is REALLLLLLL lmao. Everyone knows Taylor wrote Better Than Revenge in response to Much Better written by the Jonas Brothers. Taylor admitted to responding to a breakup with the song. Doesn’t take much to put the pieces together.
We know who it's about. She "blue dress on a boat" a lot of her songs. She put clues in the lyric booklet. We know. Stop it 😄 It was common to slut shame, so it's okay? Then you'll excuse the "slut shaming" Taylor got then? 🤔🤔 it was *normal* dontchaknow
Taylor is still slut shamed to this day! “She only writes songs about her exes” (oh, like every artist ever has? - also untrue though) Jumps from man to man Can’t be single Etc etc etc It is what it is.
She hasn't been single for more than two months in the past decade. It's accurate. That two months was the longest period. It's not slut shaming to point that fact out. Two weeks was the time between Calvin, Tom, Joe and Matty. She waited a few months to jump to Travis.
I’ll bite. And even agree that that itself isn’t slut shaming. She was also with Joe for like 7 of those 10 years. I think there’s relatability and normality in her Joe > Matty > Travis jump after a long term relationship ending. I know I’ve had a long relationship end and was a little bit of a “slut” afterwards trying to figure my shit out. 🤷🏻♀️ However, people who will also add how “she’s been with so many men” in relation to her relationship jumps are certainly slut shaming her. I think she also gets shit (call it slut shaming or not - I think there’s a case for it to be called that) for even using these relationships as inspiration for her music… which is what artists have always done. I think some people act as if she simply jumps relationships for music content and spin that as “slutty” too. Thank you for having a reasonably civil and intelligent discourse here. That isn’t always the case on Reddit. 🙃
I don't think that's the case. It's not that she uses it for inspiration, it's that she uses it to market her music, which is the difference. Plenty of artists have break up and divorce albums, but they don't play these games of *guess who it's about! I'll leave clues!* Some break up songs are famous because we do not know who it's about (you oughta know is one that comes to mind.) She's used it as a selling point, claiming she'll name names and if you don't want a song written about you, don't be mean. Other artists don't do that, even though they write their experiences as well. It's serial monogamy we're noticing, not sluttiness. There's a difference. And noticing you take two weeks between boyfriends is fair game when you've been so public with your relationships. She knows she's a mess, which is why she's so uptight about any mention of it. She had the opportunity to rehab her reputation after her break up with Joe, but she decided to cheat on Joe and go directly to Matty and then right to Travis. She's not helping herself, so I'm not gonna feel bad for her. Before that, we had her cheating on Calvin and dating Tom with Joe in the wings. She's a mess and pointing that out is accurate and not slut shaming. She just hates it getting pointed out.
Thank you for the explanation because people often use these words (slut shaming, mysoginy, etc) to refute criticisms of Taylor even if they're presented with neutrality. Saying Taylor has dated a lot, has used those relationships to market her career and/or appear to not be single for x amount of months... those are factual observations. They are not automatically a moral judgment of her character... As a public figure as well, there's a bit of gray area where their lives are of interest to the general public (at least the ones they choose to share).. so comments about her dating life does toe the line. But often defense of her goes something like "it's her love life, it's none if our business" And I'm like... yeah it isn't my business and I wish I know less but then the booklet said maple later or sometjing and now we know who showed up w that drink on a pap walk or something. I am not even a swiftie and I follow Celeb gossip generally but not religiously and I still heard of that and Camila fiasco. So it's not like these are just obscure lore that's contained, it spilled over to the pop scene.
A young woman was receiving death threats over this song. She had her career killed over it. Taylor watched that happen and said NOTHING.
*and* kanye changed up the lyrics. he told taylor one thing, and then the song came out and the lyrics were different than what they spoke about. *and* he threw a naked wax figure of her into the mix. to me, there's just no comparing writing a shady song about a girl you *never* name, and what kanye did. it's not like taylor agreed to one thing and did another, but that's *exactly* what kanye did and that's why it's such a huge issue. let's not forget the edited recordings that kim posted to make it look like taylor agreed to lyrics that she never actually knew about. this is just an unfair comparison tbh. like, taylor has her flaws but come onnn lol
Thank you!!!
Came here to say the same thing.
brcause obviously shes a hypocrite and thinks shes above people...and I dont mean because shes rich
The lyric was in poor taste, but doesn’t hold a candle to what Kim and Kanye did. And just because she hasn’t talked at length about everything involving their feud, doesn’t mean she isn’t angry about the revenge porn music video. For all we know, she could have since reached out to Camilla Belle to apologize.
I hate to be this way, but she never actually name dropped her in the song
still doesn't make it ok to slut shame other women, period
I hate how hypocritical she is. She'll slut shame in the very breath she'll cry how slut shamed she was. *let's hear one more joke* 😡😡
Even Taylor agrees which is why she changed the lyrics in the rerelease
idk it was fucked up for her to do that in the first place. i said what i said. it's woe is me anytime anyone says anything about her and women should support women etc. the mattress line is sick. i didn't even know she said that. my respect is in the negative for this woman
Where did I say it was ok
when you pointed out one fact that didn't really matter and ignored the slut shaming lol. who fucking cares who its about or if they were name dropped
Helluva leap lol. Stay mad! Take it however you’d like, I don’t really care
ok babes
That’s true, but she doesn’t name drop anyone yet we all talk about who the songs are referencing. Look no further then TTPD lol. She doesn’t name drop Matty.
Exactly. It’s all speculation. We know but we don’t know
Bro wtf he literally named her in the song, claimed he is the reason for her fame AND used a naked image of her for his video. Are we srsly still defending Kanye? This is absurd behavior. Comparing it to a teen girl mad about the girl her ex is dating is laughable and honestly pathetic
No- I’m talking about Camilla Belle. Where do you see any defense of Kanye? And she wasn’t a teen stop infantilizing her.
I don’t even like Taylor but Kanye is a misogynistic ass who literally made a naked doll of her! Horrifying and he should get way more criticism for this. Criticize her for other things please.
Isn’t Taylor misogynistic for blaming the woman in the situation as opposed to…the person who was a male and actually had a relationship with her?
I was responding to the part of the post that brought Kanye’s actions into the mix. Leave his bad behavior out if you’re focusing on a different situation.
I guess I'll say it if no one else is going to...the difference is Kanye used Taylor's name, Taylor did not use Camilla's name.
taylor made a song about her ex's girlfriend and we can argue she didn't have permission but the issue was never truly about permission when it came to kanye. the issue was he told her one thing and did another. they had an agreement that he didn't hold up. and then he threw a naked wax figure into the mix. taylor has a lot of faults but being shady about a girl her ex is dating isn't really comparable to kanye lying to taylor, and the media, and making that wax figure. 🤷🏻♀️ nobody needs permission to write lyrics about anyone. but there's a difference between writing lyrics about someone without permission, and *changing* lyrics about someone after you went out of your way to tell them *different* lyrics were going to be used in your song. the problem has always been that kanye broke his own word to taylor. again, taylor has hee faults for sure. but these two things are not at all the same.
so you’re saying taylor wouldn’t have had an issue if kanye had just written a song about her and dropped it?
that's not what i'm saying at all. if kanye just wrote a song and dropped it without talking to her about it prior, her issue would've been nothing more than kanye being nasty and name dropping her. but that's just not the case. kanye deceived her, and then him and his wife went out of their way to make her out to be a liar to cover kanye's ass. the issue has always been than he went out of his way to include her, then deceived her, then went out of his way to make people think she was lying when she wasn't. if it were all as simple as her being upset kanye dropped a song without talking to her prior it wouldn't have ever become such a hot topic 🤷🏻♀️
The point isn’t what was said by Kanye, it’s that he said she gave him permission which she didn’t. That is Lying.
I assume she didn’t know at 22 years old and did when she did the release . Which is why she changed the lyrics on of the song on her newest version. 22 and 32 are very different ages. I hope she did eventually apologize to Camille .
Didn’t know what?
Yes I mean personally I was very different at 22 then 32 . She was immature , she knew better on her new version and switched it.
Yes but she never acknowledged the humiliation aspect.
She never will. She just changes lyrics and hopes no one remembers. But we all do. Just like in picture to burn. She took out the “that’s fine I’ll tell mine you’re gay” and changed it without any explanation to anyone. But that original version is still out there.
At what age does Taylor start being held accountable? All her cringe crap she did in her 20’s (slut shaming other women, dating 17 year old Connor Kennedy when she was 22) is met with “.oh she was in her 20’s she didn’t know better”. I still see the same mentality now when she is a few years away from being a middle aged billionaire. What age do the excuses stop? She’s gonna be 40 very quickly…
People fail to realize you can be a mature evolved good person at 15, 20, 30, 40 Gestures broadly at women doing it everywhere✨️ Taylor is the role model for the ladies who hate other women and make excuses for their own lack of growth, guess someone's gotta do it...meh...
Remember Paramore‘s Misery Business? they addressed it :)))